Choosing Wisdom Over Influence with Manoj Dias

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:27):
Take a deep breath in through your nose.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
Hold it.

Speaker 1 (00:36):
Now, release slowly again deep in heale, hold release, repeating

(01:02):
internally to yourself as you connect to my voice. I
am deeply, deeply well. I I am deeply well. I

(01:23):
am deeply.

Speaker 3 (01:26):
Well.

Speaker 1 (01:30):
I'm Debbie Brown and this is the Deeply Well Podcast.
Welcome to Deeply Well, a soft place to land on
your journey. A podcast for those that are curious, creative,
and ready to expand in higher consciousness and self care.

(01:53):
I'm Debbie Brown. This is where we heal, this is
where we become. All Right, everyone, please buckle up for
what I know is going to be a very mentally,
emotionally spiritually adventurous episode.

Speaker 2 (02:09):
Really excited to share today's guest with you.

Speaker 1 (02:12):
He is a dear friend, a brother, and someone I've
had the pleasure of having on this show before. It's
been a couple seasons since he joined us. We're still
dropping gems at the time. But the episode that came
forward was one that I know has meant so much
to so many that connect with this work, especially because
of the purity and the rawness and the depth of

(02:34):
the wisdom and where it stems from.

Speaker 2 (02:37):
So today's guest.

Speaker 1 (02:39):
Minaj is one of the world's most in demand teachers
and mindful brand consultants, working with athletes, executives, schools, and
Fortune five hundred companies that include Nike, NBA, Lululemon, Netflix, Google,
and the United Nations. He's worked at MoMA, Coachella, Warner
Music and Art Back Miami. He is a co founder

(03:02):
of Open, a modern mindfulness studio based in Venice, California,
and he previously co founded a Space, Australia's first multidisciplinary
drop in meditation studio. The best selling author of Still Together,
Minaj currently sits on the faculty of Eastlan as well

(03:22):
as the Melbourne Business School's Executive Leadership Program. With a
discipline grounded in secular mindfulness and Buddhist meditation, as well
as over five hundred hours of yoga training, Minaj's expertise
spans breathwork, traman for mindfulness, and somatic psychology, with a
practice drawing from both Western science and Eastern philosophies. Over

(03:43):
the course of a decade, he has studied with globally
renowned teachers including Sharon Salzburg, doctor Miles Neil, and Matt
c Errat.

Speaker 2 (03:52):
As Errat tea.

Speaker 3 (03:55):
Marii Madia is RITTI.

Speaker 2 (03:56):
Madia is ratty.

Speaker 1 (03:58):
Please excuse the mis see Welcome back to the show manaj.

Speaker 3 (04:03):
Das nice to be back.

Speaker 4 (04:05):
And I was kind of cringing when I'm hearing my
whole biobing thread out.

Speaker 3 (04:10):
I'm like, who wrote this?

Speaker 2 (04:12):
Does it offend your humility?

Speaker 3 (04:13):
Yeah, it's kind of weird. It's kind of weird to
hear all that.

Speaker 4 (04:16):
You know, I was raised primarily in Australia and we
have this weird thing around hearing our accomplishments, like you know,
being spoken out loud.

Speaker 3 (04:24):
It's actually a disease. It's called tall Poppy syndrome.

Speaker 4 (04:28):
It's where, you know, if you start to talk about
yourself too much, people around you just cut you down.

Speaker 3 (04:33):
They're like, who does this guy think he is?

Speaker 4 (04:35):
So you start to you kind of get that ingrained
in your in your mind as you grow up.

Speaker 3 (04:39):
You're like, I don't talk about your accomplishment and so
what you do. But then I remember landing in La
and everyone's like, this is.

Speaker 1 (04:45):
What I do, right, And it's also a grandie it is.

Speaker 3 (04:51):
Yeah, it's a very different culture.

Speaker 4 (04:52):
So I'm so happy to be back, Like I was thinking,
of that on the way here. The conversation we had
in twenty twenty was so special. I've done so many podcasts,
and that one sticks out because I felt very raw
personally going through it, and you know, you held such
beautiful space and we went in and I'm excited to
see you again.

Speaker 1 (05:10):
Thank you so much, my friend. And I think just
for to set this stage a little of our background,
you know, you were one of the people that I
definitely made deep connection with in the pandemic, and I remember,
especially more towards the start of the pandemic and especially
before kind of you know, the quote unquote.

Speaker 2 (05:28):
Industry really exploded.

Speaker 1 (05:31):
I think some of us that were teachers that were
kind of in this space, and we were also grappling
with our own kind of internal wars and chaoses and unfoldings,
but we were put in a position to serve in
really deep ways. And I think something I've shared a
little bit on the show is I think I've even

(05:52):
needed to take the last year to come down from
all of the work that I was doing and offering
in the pandemic and just let myself even look back
and grieve a little for the things I couldn't agrieve
in real time because I was serving.

Speaker 4 (06:07):
Yeah, yeah, I mean that that definitely resonates. And I
haven't had the moment to step away for a year,
but I've had moments where I've broken down, like I
mean really transparently, like my health has suffered, and I've
taken a few months off from work and I've gone
and kind of decompressed a bit. You know that that
has left lasting effects on me, both on an emotional

(06:30):
level and I think a mental level, and you know,
some good things came out of it, but also like
some things I'm still trying to process and understand manage.

Speaker 1 (06:39):
And I had a chance to, you know, get to
know each other a little bit when you first moved
to LA but all of us were so restricted, and
then I had a chance in this last year to
come into your space. This absolutely gorgeous, deeply authentic community
you've created at Open, which you're a co founder of,
which for those that are not familiar, Open has a

(07:01):
really powerful app where they offer really incredible meditations and
breath work sessions, but they also have this really gorgeous
space in Venice, California that it's very transcendent and transporting.
When you get to go there and they offer classes
and a multitude of things, but definitely meditation, breath work,

(07:21):
And so I joined you there and we did, I
believe we did like a practice centered around love and
it was really beautiful. And I had some friends join me,
and we're all live in the flesh and there's nothing,
you know, as much as we can do things on
the apps or you know, do things on YouTube videos,
there's really nothing quite as special and invocative as going

(07:44):
into space as a student with other people and being
able to really be in the energy of your teacher
or whoever's guiding you, because you pick up on so
much like the nuance of the spiritual experience in the
bodylaneguage and the tone of voice. In being able to
witness how someone holds space or can respond to other people.

(08:06):
It's a very very important part of the healing arts
that I think shouldn't go unnoticed. But we shared that together,
which was a really special night. But when you know,
to kind of sink into what you just shared, what
about the way you experience yourself your own practice and

(08:34):
the way that you teach. What shifted since the pandemic?
How has that kind of influenced or changed or evolved
who you are in your spirituality.

Speaker 3 (08:45):
Yeah, such a great question. You know.

Speaker 4 (08:48):
In coming up to twenty twenty, I had been practicing
you know, meditation, yoga, breath work in culmination for around
fifteen sixteen years, and with my teacher, there were moments
I almost went and studied and took robes, and so
I was so steeped in lineage and tradition and practice,

(09:09):
and what I encountered in twenty twenty, and as we
were talking about before, was people that were really suffering.
And in that moment, I think, you know, us as teachers,
there's a light bulb. They're like, oh, well, we've got
something to help you alleviate that suffering.

Speaker 3 (09:25):
So we kind of go to work.

Speaker 4 (09:27):
And there were a lot of times when I was
approaching people that were having really high anxiety or grief, stress, overwhelmed,
and I was presenting these traditional teachings which you know,
our time tested two thousand and five, nine years old.
But I started to realize not all of it was working,
you know, and the way I was presenting it just

(09:48):
wasn't cutting through. And in my mind, I'm like, well,
how this has worked for so long? And you know,
they absolutely do work, is what I want to say.
But I realized I had to change how it was
being presented and people needed immediacy. They needed something that
was going to cut through and just help them in
that moment. And you know, as you know with meditation practice,

(10:08):
it's often something that evolves beautifully over time. It's like
an avocato, right, It takes time and then you enjoy
it at the right moment. But I needed to like
really switch up how I was teaching. And it was
my daughter actually that that was the biggest teacher here,
because she had some social anxiety that came through the
pandemic and then post pandemic, and I needed to find

(10:30):
a way to give her something that was just going
to help her in that moment and me giving all
these long damatalks and explaining what the Buddha did and
how this it just wasn't it just wasn't resonating. And
so the communication style changed. You know, I integrated more
breathwork into practices. I integrated breath work and meditation into practices.
I started leveraging sound and music and went, you know,

(10:53):
down the rabbit hole of understanding the power of sound,
how that really transports us into different brainway states, and
so I had to pull on every single court I
could to try and find ways to heal. So in
a way, it made me a better teacher, but in
a way also created a lot of dissonance within me
because in my mind, I was a Buddhist meditation teacher

(11:13):
and that was it. I was on this track to being,
you know, the youngest, one of the youngest Buddhist meditation teachers,
and I was respected and had credibility. But then I
just had to help people, you know, I'm like, well,
this helps, and let's bring that in.

Speaker 3 (11:28):
But then I was in this.

Speaker 4 (11:29):
Internal conflict of all who am I? And my identity
starting to shift, And yeah, I think there was a
point where I was like, I stopped trying to impress people.
I stopped trying to be something to anyone else. I
wanted to always be a teacher that was credible, that
had respect, that was well studied, well versed, and that

(11:53):
was what was most important.

Speaker 3 (11:54):
It was that I wasn't creating any harm, but I
was actually being of help and support.

Speaker 1 (11:59):
Wow. Wow, So how now is you know, you're kind
of we're a few years removed. Has there have you
just noticed that this is now kind of the attended
path or has there been kind of any blending and
or emerging.

Speaker 4 (12:16):
Yeah, I think there definitely has been blending emerging, But
it's ways of explaining the same thing in new ways
really is what I found. It's like capturing people's imagination
in fifteen seconds versus or one hour talk which I
used to give before every meditation. It's meeting people where
they're at, you know. And I think there's a lot

(12:37):
more empathy and compassion that I have for people that
don't meditate and don't practice, and also don't have time,
because before I'm like, what do you mean you don't
have ten minutes?

Speaker 3 (12:47):
Like what's wrong with you?

Speaker 4 (12:48):
And I think living in LA especially, I'm like, oh,
people really don't have ten minutes and they're navigating all
of these other things like housing affordability in LA and
you know, or crime, the economy and geopolitical chaos. I'm like, Okay,
maybe they don't have time, So what can I give
them that will be a gateway to this other thing

(13:10):
that I teach? And so breath work, music and sound
has been a big part of my practice since twenty twenty.

Speaker 2 (13:16):
Yeah, God, that's so powerful. I think.

Speaker 1 (13:20):
I think for some of us, it's like really recognizing
the importance of speaking to the experience of the complex
lived experience that we have now that is it's just
there's no precedent for it, you know. It's like, as
much as we can point to other moments in history
that there was you know, strain or stress or you know,
things happening, We've always had wars. There has never been

(13:41):
a time that there has not been war literally ever,
there has never been a time that there has not
been mass suffering in a handful of countries at the
same time somewhere, you know, in.

Speaker 2 (13:55):
The history of the world.

Speaker 1 (13:57):
So, you know, I think one something that's important to
recognized for all of us, for everyone, especially viewing on
this path that is looking for healing and peace. We
are always dancing between grief and joy. We are always
navigating that there is not a liveness that doesn't include grief,
that doesn't include having to kind of grapple with the

(14:19):
paradox of it all and the sadness of it all
in some ways.

Speaker 4 (14:23):
And hold both things at the same time. Yeah, which
is which is also really interesting. I think the one
thing that shifted is like we've never been we've never
had a front row seat to the grief, like the
geopolitical grief in particular, and I think that combined with
what we have to go through now on the back
end of two and a half years of a pandemic,
because I think, you know, people are being really traumatized

(14:45):
like that. That's my perspective on people's people that I'm
seeing that coming to the studio and that I'm speaking to,
is that people are genuinely overwhelmed, you know. So it's
a really interesting time and it's a really interesting period
and you know, and it's we chatted about about this
before we started. You know, you're reconciling all of the
things that's happening in the world with this weird new

(15:08):
like influencer culture as well, and so yeah, it's it's
wellness is booming, it's a trillion dollar industry now, Suffering
is going up. So I'm like, is anything we're doing
actually making a genuine difference? And so that's something I'm
always in conversation with with myself, like is what I'm
doing genuinely helping people or is it giving them a

(15:31):
temporary antidote to something which again, it's deeped in me
through the Buddhist practice. It's like, you know, we'd rather
find freedom than temporary relief.

Speaker 1 (15:42):
That is so interesting to hear you say that is
really so interesting to hear you say so.

Speaker 2 (15:51):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (15:52):
Something that's coming forward is kind of posing the question
of does it have to lead to transcendence to be bad?

Speaker 3 (16:00):
Hmmm. No.

Speaker 4 (16:02):
I think there's there's stages and there's levels to this.
I think there's pain relief, like, which is like the
base level, like you're suffering, like what can what can
we give you to ease that that pain? But then
there's an inquiry that only the student can really decide on,
which is is that is that okay for me? Is
that enough to constantly take the pill to feel good

(16:24):
in that moment? Or is there which is like the
red pill in the matrix, which is like I go
down the rabbit hole of really working with my grief,
with my suffering, uprooting it from its very source, which
in the short term can be more pain and more suffering,
but in the long term, in my experience, very limited
experience of life anyway, has been the one that's been

(16:46):
the most transformative.

Speaker 1 (16:47):
Yeah, yeah, how do you interact with your grief.

Speaker 4 (16:54):
M It's an ongoing dialogue, you know, it's an ongoing
comp and I don't think I really had to encounter
it till twenty twenty one when my mother passed away.
And then that was, you know, it was very sudden.
It was still in the middle of COVID. I couldn't
you know, I traveled back from la to to Melbourne,
but I couldn't actually see it because I had to

(17:16):
spend like two weeks in a hotel quarantine.

Speaker 3 (17:19):
And you know, again, it was beautiful.

Speaker 4 (17:22):
It was that The final two three months I had
with her was incredible, probably the best three months that
we've had as as adults. And you know, in some respects,
but it's no one can really prepare you for it.
Like and I've studied grief, I've studied in permanence, I've
studied death, I've studied at an academic level, you know,

(17:42):
but when it happens, all the conceptual understanding of that
kind of goes out the door and you have to
really deal with it.

Speaker 3 (17:51):
On a day by day basis.

Speaker 4 (17:53):
And some days, you know, I could reconcile it in
my mind, I'm like, this is what happens to all
of us. You know, she had a great life all
of that, and other days it's just like I am,
I'm distracting myself from the grief. I'm overworking, or I'm
on my phone, or I'm overeating. And you know, it
was my brother that had I don't think he's meditated

(18:14):
more than two days in his whole life. He's just like, dude,
just take it day by day, you know, just take
it day by day. Every day is going to be different.
And I'm like, really, that is the best advice I
think I've been given when it comes to grief, is
that take it day by day and that we can
study all of this stuff. But some days he has
to go out the door and you have to have

(18:34):
the shakeshack two or three times a day, or you
have to be on your phone, and that's part of it.

Speaker 3 (18:39):
You know. That's really what I gave myself grace for.

Speaker 4 (18:42):
Like I'm like, yeah, it's okay, it's okay to do this,
because what I found was that I was crumbling. I
was crashing, and then there would be the dialogue that
would be on top of that, going, oh, you should
be doing better.

Speaker 3 (18:53):
You're a meditation teacher, like, what's wrong with you? And
so then there's the grief that I'm avoiding.

Speaker 4 (18:58):
Then there's the you know, in a narrative, in a
critic that's judging me for having this experience, and it
was just making me feel worse and worse and worse.
And I don't know, if you know, with the grief
of a loved one in particular, I don't know if
that ever ever heals in a way that feels linear
and clear and clean.

Speaker 3 (19:20):
I think, you know, there.

Speaker 4 (19:21):
Are moments where you're like, oh, that's beautiful, and moments
where you're like, oh, I really miss this person, you know,
But it's a day by day thing.

Speaker 2 (19:32):
Yeah. Yeah, How do you talk to God?

Speaker 3 (19:37):
M I love this question.

Speaker 4 (19:42):
I pray, And the irony of that is is a
Buddhist meditation teacher, we don't really say that we pray,
you know, we don't pray to a god necessarily because
we don't we don't worship the Buddha. The Buddha was
essentially a person like your eye that studied, you know,
learn to understand his mind, and we refer to him

(20:02):
more as a psychologist than a deity.

Speaker 3 (20:06):
But I think when my mom passed away.

Speaker 4 (20:10):
He took me back to when I was a child
and I didn't really understand Buddhism then, you know, I
didn't really understand religion spirituality, even though like they were
in my house, like we live right next to it
a monastery and right next to a temple.

Speaker 2 (20:23):
Wow.

Speaker 4 (20:25):
But I remember back as a child, I would just
pray and I didn't know who I was praying to.
I was just like, please look after my mom, Please
look after my dad, look after my brother, look after.

Speaker 3 (20:35):
All these people.

Speaker 4 (20:36):
And then when my mom passed away, I found myself
doing that again, and I'm like, you know I was saying.
I would say in my mind, like please look after
her wherever she's gone, you know, bring her back to
me in a different form. And there was again there's
speaking to something that I don't know if i'd defined
as God.

Speaker 3 (20:57):
And I believe that there is a God. For what
it's worth.

Speaker 4 (21:00):
I don't know if the God is in the form
that I imagine it to be, or maybe you imagine
to be or people imagine it to be. But I
use God interchangeably with the quality of oneness, with the
quality of love, with a consciousness, and yeah, I believe
that there is something much greater, And even if that

(21:20):
is not true, I find believing in that just makes
my life so much better.

Speaker 3 (21:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:27):
Yes, life is challenging by design, and it's like, do
we want to bring more suffering to ourselves?

Speaker 3 (21:37):
Right?

Speaker 2 (21:38):
Like, what are the ways.

Speaker 1 (21:39):
That if we're going to be here, and if we're
going to choose to stay here, what are the ways
that you know, we can create pleasure and joy and
delight within this experience?

Speaker 3 (21:52):
Right?

Speaker 1 (21:52):
Because if we have one the other side, we deserve
to know the other. We deserve to swing that pendulum
to the other.

Speaker 4 (21:59):
Side, lily. And it's all God right, Like, it's all
part of the experience. And I think again into the
Buddhist context, it's with so much fortune that we get
reborn into a human birth, because you know, we can
be born as anything, right, like being sex and plants
and all of that, And the opportunity to be born

(22:19):
as a as a human again in the Buddhist context
is so meaningful and powerful. And one of the questions
that's asked by some of the greatest teachers is what
will you do with the preciousness of this human existence?
And that's always struck me, like the preciousness of this
human existence. And yeah, for me, it always puts things

(22:39):
into context like why would I go and start a
fight with someone like on the internet, or why would
I go and get mad or my girlfriend my wife? Now, actually,
even though I I those things naturally come up. Yeah,
like what's the point in holding grudges? What's the point
in being violent and being aggressive when there's so much

(23:00):
more in this existence to experience? And life is really precious.
And I think if you come into contact with death,
you realize even more how precious life is. So there's
for me there's more of an urgency with my life,
not in a like I need to achieve. It's like, no,
I need to really refine my mind. I need to

(23:22):
really open my heart because this is like precious. Like
I'm not going to waste time loving people and calling people.
So there's so much more energy behind the things that
I might have previously put off, you know, like I'll
do it when I have time. I'll call my daughter,
you know, on the weekend. Now, if I have an idea,

(23:43):
I'm like, oh, I wonder how that is?

Speaker 3 (23:44):
I call him? You know.

Speaker 4 (23:46):
Now, if I walk past someone on the street and
there's a desire like I'll go and help this person.
I just do it, because if I sit there and
if I think about it, then I'm like, oh, well,
you know, if I give money to this person, and
I'll have to give money to the person behind me,
and I don't really have cash. So I'm like, no,
if I get this, this spit of generosity or love,

(24:06):
I'm just going to act on it.

Speaker 3 (24:07):
And yeah, I try to live my life that way.

Speaker 2 (24:17):
Deeply.

Speaker 1 (24:18):
Well. One of the things, especially that I think you
just spoke to that just so many grapple with in
this you know, the year of our Lord twenty twenty four,
where Internet is king and perception somehow, you know, exceeds reality.
I think people don't always recognize that they have a

(24:38):
choice what they engage with. Right. So it's like we
can encounter this experience of so called hate on the internet, right,
or this experience of people being against us or feuding
with us. But I've just found so often it's you know,
we're in.

Speaker 2 (24:54):
Co creation with that too.

Speaker 1 (24:55):
The moment we give it our attention, the moment we
let it take over our awareness, and we I don't
understand always the power of letting go of the grip.
You know it exists because you allow it to to
a certain extent. Right, there are some things out of
our control, and there's very often things that happen that
are without our consent. But in the context of what

(25:16):
is like non violent, non harmful, non urgent, we are
making a choice to kind of have those experiences and
let them create the essence of how we feel. But
when we let go or when we choose to disengage,
I think so often we can be just absolutely shocked

(25:36):
at how quickly whatever that experience of discomfort or frustration
is the way it can just leave us.

Speaker 4 (25:43):
Yeah, yeah, I mean letting goes really hot. Yeah, firstly
with throwing it out there. Yeah, And like my pet
peeve is when I go to a yoga class and
she's like, just let go, I'm like, woman, what are
you telling me to do?

Speaker 3 (25:57):
Exactly? And you know how how to visits it?

Speaker 4 (25:59):
But no, I think conceptually again, letting go is really
the work, right, It's constantly letting go of things that
are inherently impermanent, things that inherently a lot of things
that don't even matter at the end of our lives.
But to get to that, to have that awareness and
then to have the capability to take action and let

(26:22):
go in that moment is tough because you know, like anger,
for example, like, yeah, let go when you're angry, let go.

Speaker 3 (26:28):
I'm like, but it feels so good.

Speaker 4 (26:30):
That anger feels so good, and so it's seductive, you know,
it's seductive. Our habitual responses are seductive. And it is
a delicate balance between using our wisdom which we've cultivated
through practice, and.

Speaker 3 (26:49):
Giving giving voice.

Speaker 4 (26:50):
And giving action and giving our selves to a particular
feeling because sometimes it's great to let go into anger
and we need it. Right creates change sometimes anger creates
creates revolution at times. And also anger creates a lot
of hump and it creates a lot of pain and

(27:12):
creates a lot of suffering. And one of my teachers
used to say, it's like a button knife. A butter
knife can spread beautiful grass fed organic butter on bread,
but it can also kill someone. And it's it's how
do you use it, how do you respond to it?
How do you work with it at that moment?

Speaker 1 (27:29):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I will encourage everyone though. I found
that if you choose, if you are able to make
a choice, that's in service to kind of releasing your
grip around something anything in your life. You will cringe
very often, you will want to scream it out inside
of your own body. But if you sit with it, it

(27:52):
creates a new pathway that your system begins to really like.
And then you'll be given opportunities quickly to do that again.
And then if you keep saying yes, which isn't always
possible and is it challenging, absolutely, can it be done? Absolutely,
After a couple times, you get the hang of it,

(28:13):
and you actually realize how much power you have inside
and how powerful of a co creator in your life
you can be. And you know it depends on the experiences.
But I also say this as someone who chose to
get divorced in the beginning of a pandemic and had
to kind of navigate life with a decision that was
that affecting to the things around me. But I found

(28:36):
that as soon as you did the thing, you're just
met with a lot of opportunity to make new powerful
choices with ease, and you won't be met with as
much anxiety about them.

Speaker 4 (28:47):
Yeah, and you so beautifully said I think about it
in the context of meditation as well, Like you know,
when we meditate, we really look at ourselves, right, We
look at our own mind, we look at our own
tendencies a right, and the more we begin to look
at ourselves, we can see very clearly which actions or
thoughts lead us towards suffering and which actions and thoughts

(29:11):
lead us towards happiness. And then there's a choice that
we're presented with, like do I choose to go down
the road of suffering, which could be disdain, a toxic relationship,
which could be distained, a job that's killing you, all
of these things?

Speaker 3 (29:25):
Or do I choose.

Speaker 4 (29:26):
To go towards enjoy love all of that? And, like
you said, the more you do it, you start to
fall into this loop of having seen very clearly the
choices that are presented to us in our life. But
to get to that, it takes work. It takes the
faculty of developing awareness and intuition and then courage, because

(29:47):
you know, to leave a relationship or to leave a job,
or to say yes to a relationship or to say
yes to a job takes that. Okay, I believe in this,
and I feel like that's love that's motivating me here
and not fear or or safety or anything else.

Speaker 1 (30:02):
Yeah, thank you beautiful talk to me about open So
what was your inspiration for co founding this? And you
know what did you notice that was kind of missing
that the bills?

Speaker 4 (30:17):
Yeah, it's I mean, it's been such a journey. I
was talking to my co founder Ride today about it.
You know, it's been four and a half years since,
you know, we decided to embark on this journey.

Speaker 3 (30:29):
I started off when I was still in Australia.

Speaker 4 (30:31):
I was trying to get over to America, but obviously
during the pandemic, the immigration was really crazy.

Speaker 3 (30:39):
You know.

Speaker 4 (30:39):
The vision was very simple. It was get more people
to these practices. And you know, we each have different interpretations.
But when I heard get more people, I thought, who
is not here, who is not practicing meditation, who is
not in the rooms that I'm going and teaching too?
And it was very obvious and very clear. It was minorities,

(31:00):
it was young people, it was old people. And then
there's this wellness demographic that you'd see at most yoga studios.
And my mission at that point was that, Okay, I
need to bring more people here. And it's not easy
because the people that tend to go to yoga studios
meditation studios, especially at place like Venice, are a specific
demographic that have.

Speaker 3 (31:20):
Money that are located in those places. But it was
a long play for me.

Speaker 4 (31:25):
It was like, Okay, I know maybe initially it's not
going to be like that, you know, and it's not true,
Like it is fairly diverse, it open, and we're lucky
because it's a pretty affluent white demographic of Venice Beach,
which is ironic in and of itself. But that was
the main mission. I want to get more people here.
And then as we started to work with these techniques

(31:46):
and different practices, we thought they in and of themselves
were inaccessible. A lot of my friends, when I say
come and do a yoga class, were like, nah, Na,
yoga's not for me. I'm going to go to the gym.
I'm going to live for soon. I'd be like that,
and I'm like, well, you.

Speaker 3 (32:02):
Know, you'd get all these benefits.

Speaker 4 (32:04):
And you know, blah blah. They're like, nah, I've only
got an hour a day, Like I got to do this.
So we developed movement classes that use the weights that
also leveraged yoga based movements, and then we created another movement.
I call it movement languages. Because they're not used styles
another movement language that was mobility focused, and that use

(32:25):
of mobility instead of yoga was also important because yoga
has a connotation that can either draw you in or
it can freak you out. And so blending different styles
different techniques was a way to get more people to
really this practice. And then finally it's this concept that
I've been learning for three and a half years, which

(32:47):
is around somatics and somatic psychology, which is around really
inhabiting the body as a way to really navigate, deal
and overcome complex trauma. And them out of twenty twenty
and teaching again, I realize we're all traumatized in various ways.
And I see this with CEOs that I coach on

(33:10):
the side, I see this with athletes, I see this
with the average person that walks in. We all have
these little fragments of experience that take us out of
our bodies, and we spend a lot of time not
in our bodies, and that has a ripple effect. That
has a ripple effect on our relationships with the people
that we love, our relationship to ourselves, to God, to

(33:32):
the present moment. And so the mission then became find
ways to get people here into their bodies and then
give them something to help them understand their lived experience.
And so we do that through meditation, through breath work,
through movement practices. We try to do it through our
social media. You know, Becka has a big, big impact

(33:54):
on that. Our dear friends.

Speaker 2 (33:55):
Shout out to Becker.

Speaker 4 (33:56):
Yeah, yeah, in all of these ways. Is just finding
new ways to bring people into the present moment.

Speaker 1 (34:04):
Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, to that point. And that's something we
discuss a lot on the show. Is complex post traumatic
stress and complex trauma. And you know what it is
to navigate with a complex lived experience and really want
you know, so many people I think especially that listen
to this show, you're navigating what we're calling in this moment,

(34:27):
you know, kind of lineage healing or intergenerational trauma. You know,
just really having this deep desire to meet yourself more
deeply so that the dynamic of everything in your life
gets to change. And it is hard, arduous, deeply devotional work.

Speaker 3 (34:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (34:48):
Oh, devotional that is the word, Like that is really
that is really it. It's a relationship that never ends
to right, because the healing, I don't feel like it
ever ends and it's interesting in a culture living in LA.
I mean, if.

Speaker 2 (35:07):
I'm born and raised here.

Speaker 3 (35:08):
Still yeah, yeah, I was about to go to La.

Speaker 4 (35:11):
No, like I've really found it challenging. Is like me
being really vulnerable and honest right now. I found it,
you know. And also it's my own thing, right because
I've I live in Santa Monica and I don't feel
like it's my place, and my best friends are either
in New York or they're in Melbourne, and the culture
of LA is very different.

Speaker 3 (35:29):
To those two places.

Speaker 4 (35:31):
But it's it's been very interesting when you say devotion,
because we live, especially in LA, in such an immediacy
of healing. And I use healing in quotation marks because
it can be used flippantly as well, like we're healing
if we're doing this, we're healing if we're doing that.
My curiosity has always been living in LA, like what

(35:53):
is the actual work?

Speaker 3 (35:55):
Like what is it actually like?

Speaker 4 (35:57):
Are we just going to hang out of the beach
and you know, plant medicine and that's healing, right, And
I'm not judging for what it's worth, right, it's we
all have our own versions of that. But I come
from a lineage and I come from teachers that say
healing isn't sexy.

Speaker 3 (36:13):
You don't post about it.

Speaker 4 (36:14):
You know you you actually are in the murky depths
of darkness and you're broken.

Speaker 3 (36:20):
You're broken down many many times.

Speaker 4 (36:22):
And yeah, it's that word really resonated when you say
because it's it takes so much devotion to commit to that.
It's devotion and the ugly times and the messiness and
the rawness and the broken downness, and it's only devotion
that gets you through at that point.

Speaker 3 (36:39):
It's nothing else.

Speaker 2 (36:41):
God, God.

Speaker 1 (36:44):
I really resonate deeply with where you hold healing work.
You know it much like you. That's how I see things.
And this is not to take away from anyone else,
but I don't think, especially if you are posting about it,
talking about it in real time, it is possible for
you to be transcending that experience or quote unquote healing it.

(37:06):
I think that those are things that you have to
be in such a devotional humility with and that you
have to allow to unfold, like there is so much unknown,
and I feel that it taints some of the process
if you are trying to quantify it, especially too soon,

(37:27):
or quantify it for audienceship you know, it can be challenging.
You may not get the opportunity to fully let it
sink into yourself yet because you have to integrate and
you have to create space to embody what it is
that you were doing.

Speaker 4 (37:46):
Just to that point, I feel like often us being
really vocal about it is a is a coping mechanism,
you know. I feel like our phones and technology is
lack of a better word, like addictive, and we go
to it to cope with stress and overwhelm and even
in moments when we're doing some deep healing work. To

(38:07):
your point, if we start to go to that, if
it's like this thing we broadcast consciously or unconsciously, we're
not really still in it, you know, where we're disconnecting
from the experience, somewhere connecting to something else. And again
it's it's okay, we all go through our cycle of grief,

(38:27):
but it's important to know that that often the desire
to even even the moment we have a really peak experience.

Speaker 3 (38:35):
Right. I see a lot of people these days going
to South America and doing plant medicine ceremonies and I'm like, oh,
like I did this, and this is what happened I'm like, Yo,
you were just out yesterday and like the you're like
posting about stuff like take the moment to integrate, like
you said, take the moment to really learn, like what happens,
because some of these things unfold over time, you know,

(38:58):
they unfold the later.

Speaker 2 (39:01):
Yes, thank you for saying that.

Speaker 1 (39:04):
Yeah, yeah, yes, I think, oh god, yes, it's you know,
I've done. I've done a lot of work on myself,
and very gratefully, I have found ways to move through
a lot of really complicated, complex trauma that I've experienced
since childhood, but so much of it I don't share

(39:26):
the process. I try to bring the wisdom forward, but
I don't need to share all of the stories of
the darkness because where I'm holding them and where I'm
placing them, I have to just be in my own
process with myself and just allow the wisdom to flow forward,
but not necessarily kind of have tourism of the pain.

Speaker 4 (39:46):
Yeah you know, yeah, yeah, I mean one of my
favorite teachers back I'm in astray, Johnny Chatted. Johnny Paulotte
once said to me, you know, teaches often full victim
to sharing the wound, right sharing, Like I am in
this pain and we see that with social media, like
I'm going through this, and I think the really profound

(40:07):
teachers that have really been able to integrate and embody
their wisdom, they often share from the scar and that
that ability to say that, that ability to be with
the wound, to tend to it, to heal it, and
then to be able to say this is how I
healed it is for me the wisdom and it's kind

(40:31):
of lost in social media wellness a little bit. But
I think, you know, there are these incredible teachers out
there that like you're one of them. Like I've seen
you teach and I've seen you speak, and I actually
spoke to someone about it today, where when you're in
the presence of someone that embodies what they're teaching, there

(40:52):
are no words, like you just feel it, right, Like
we've been in front of teachers where you're like, oh, yeah,
they could just be saying the simplest thing, but you're
like this.

Speaker 3 (41:00):
Is yes, that is different, right, yeah, no, like you
feel it.

Speaker 4 (41:05):
Whereas someone that comes and says something that they've just
learned from a book or from a podcasts, it's a
different frequency. And I'm not someone that's deeply into things
I don't really understand and that are not tangible. But
I believe in energy, and I believe that there is
an energetic component to wisdom that that can't be articulated

(41:27):
with words, words words.

Speaker 1 (41:34):
Deeply, well, you are such a poet.

Speaker 2 (41:41):
I just I love the way you.

Speaker 1 (41:44):
Yeah, you feel all of the deep study and research
and observing and surgery that you have been doing on
your life and the world around you, mainly overthinking, you know,
ruminating thoughts, right, thank you.

Speaker 2 (42:03):
You know, and something that you brought forward when and.

Speaker 3 (42:07):
Blessed.

Speaker 1 (42:08):
This is not with any specific criticism or judgment, but
there is some observation that I'm going to share that
I'm noticing. But when we talk about, for instance, some
of the communities that feel.

Speaker 2 (42:20):
Very bypassy, right, it feels very like I.

Speaker 1 (42:23):
Am into the festival of it all, I am into
the ayahuasca of it all. I am into the kind
of what I observe as more performative experience of spirituality.
You know, something that I think is so important to
remember is that absolutely anything can be used as a

(42:44):
tool of avoidance, like anything, including God, right, which is
how very often and a lot of and we've talked
about this on the show quite a bit. There's a
lot of religious trauma in the world, especially in the
black community. There is a lot of religious trauma.

Speaker 2 (43:00):
You know.

Speaker 1 (43:01):
It's easy to just spiritually bypass while talking about spirit
you know, and it's like, are is ayahuasca or any
of the things that one can do? And I've done ayahuasca,
But are those any of the things? You know? Are
you avoiding yourself by saying that you're doing something? You know?

(43:26):
Are you avoiding yourself by taking pictures of what you're
doing so you can be perceived as healed whole, or
you know, a little more courageous or much to your point,
are you sitting with all the things?

Speaker 3 (43:39):
Yeah, I mean, I appreciate you bringing this up.

Speaker 4 (43:42):
I think it's something that people in minority communities especially,
we don't really talk about because you know, I came
from the Buddhist world, which was very much the same
as you know, other religions. I think two things can
exist at the same time. I've always believed that I
think that we can about what we're eating and what
we're doing and what we're practicing and be doing the work.

(44:04):
But I don't feel like it's fully complete and integrated
at the same time, you know, I feel like we
can be seduced by what we see by the influencers
that we follow. I fall victims to the influencers that
I follow, and I'm like, is this person influencing me?

Speaker 3 (44:20):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (44:21):
And you influenced me the other day. You posted some
honey and I ordered it right okay, and I've started
taking it every morning.

Speaker 3 (44:30):
I'm not even joking.

Speaker 4 (44:31):
It's honey, like Manuka, Honey's change my digestion in my life.
I ain't even paid by them. Don't like, give me
a sponsorship if you're watching this, because I don't want
to be paid like ninety dollars for this shit. But no,
I was just taking a moment to really I want
to answer this really honestly and transparently. And I think

(44:51):
people have to realize they have agency in their life.
Even if you are going through the most suffering, even
if you are struggling right now with everything going on
in life, you still have a choice.

Speaker 3 (45:05):
And I think it's really important.

Speaker 4 (45:08):
One of the biggest choices we make is who we follow,
you know, And I mean that in life in general,
whether it's God, whether it's our friends, whether it's people
we admire on social media. You have a choice, and
you have to be discerning, Like, you have to be discerning,
and you.

Speaker 3 (45:25):
Have to really.

Speaker 4 (45:28):
Critique everything that people are talking about, and you have
to really test it.

Speaker 3 (45:33):
And I learned this from my teacher who shared with me.
It's kind of debated at the moment, but he the
way when he.

Speaker 4 (45:43):
Presented to me, He's like, this was the final sermon
the buddh gave and he sat down his disciples, which
was around fifty two at the time, fifty two of
his best students, and he said, don't believe anything I'm paraphrasing.
You don't believe anything that I have said, anything that
I've taught you unless you test it, unless it resonates
with your own wisdom and intelligence. And that always struck

(46:07):
me if like, someone like the Buddha, who has been
quoted so many times over the years, is saying, don't
believe anything I'm saying, and I'm like, yeah, like, we
have to we have to critique things. We have to
reconcile within ourselves. We can't just accept this person because
they have a million followers and they have, you know,
good looks and beautiful eyes. We're like oh yeah, I

(46:27):
believe you, Like I'll do what you tell me, but like, no,
like that's how we fall into cults.

Speaker 3 (46:32):
And we all are in various cults, whether it's you know.

Speaker 4 (46:36):
What we're wearing or cults of you know, we're all
wrapped up into shit.

Speaker 3 (46:41):
We're like no, like does this make sense? And this
sit with it? Sit with it.

Speaker 4 (46:45):
The answer might not come immediately. And I had to
sit with with my teacher for a while. I'm like,
am I in a cult? And that was a big
that was a big thing for me. And I'm like,
am I wrapped up in this? Because he's a very charismatic,
very enigmatic, but you know, controversial for sure.

Speaker 3 (47:02):
Like people were like, you know, you were you were
walking up.

Speaker 4 (47:04):
With students and I was like whoa, Like this is
this is you know, intense for me, But it's your
own choice and you have to be able to trust yourself. Yeah,
And you have to be able to make a choice,
you know, because sometimes we can just be paralyzed.

Speaker 3 (47:19):
We're like, oh, I don't know, I don't know, I
don't know.

Speaker 4 (47:21):
But just and I'm going to sway just fucking do it,
and only in retrospect, well, you know, if it's the
right choice or not, but just do it, you know.
And that's what I'm learning is I'm a liberal and
I can be just so indecisive in my life, but
life really demands you to take control of it at
certain points. You know, Ultimately, we don't have much control

(47:41):
of life, you know, life is just something that happens.
But there are moments that we do have complete control over,
and that is choice. And so when you're presented with those,
use your intelligence, use your wisdom, use your love, use
your compassion, use your faith, and make the choice.

Speaker 1 (48:00):
Everyone listening right now, I want you to take a
second and just take a deep breath. That was That's
really powerful, and I want you to let it as
you hear this and as you connect to his voice,
to really really see where that is landing with you.

Speaker 2 (48:15):
Choice is, I believe, God's.

Speaker 1 (48:17):
Greatest gift to this planet, and it's how we're meant
to navigate the world. And sometimes we're only as good
as the choices that are in front of us, you know,
depending on your community, your environment, your experiences. But the
only answer is personal choice to all the questions.

Speaker 4 (48:34):
Yeah, yeah, wow, I think I think that you know,
like I came from a lot of suffering.

Speaker 3 (48:41):
I wasn't born with.

Speaker 4 (48:43):
A lot of access to things, and there were choices
I made when I was a teenager that could have
sent me down a very very different path. And by
the grace of God, by the grace of my parents,
I somehow found a way back. But that doesn't mean
every day I'm not presented with choices. Right Like we're

(49:04):
public figures right now, like we can go down the
dark side very quickly. You know, someone offers us a
bag to do to say some shit.

Speaker 2 (49:12):
Okay, I'm talking about this right.

Speaker 4 (49:16):
And I'm like, oh shit, Like that would make my
life and my family's life really easy, And that is
a choice that you know, I don't begrudge people that
go down that road as well, by the way, you know,
secure your bag. I tell people, like, do things for
your wellbeing, But then you have to also live with
those consequences. You can't blame people for it. You can't

(49:38):
blame society with certain choices that you make. But there
are tough choices, and I'm sure you and I have
to face these choices at a level, and people listening
will have to face it at a different level.

Speaker 3 (49:49):
But ultimately, there are choices that we have to make.

Speaker 5 (49:55):
Ooh, talk that talks. As you're talking, I just want
to pay this thing. There's something really beautiful happening around us.
We're recording this episode in a studio in Hollywood, but
we're also in a very rare and strange LA storm
and the sound of the rain is pouring into the
room right now, and it's really special.

Speaker 1 (50:15):
And I'm just kind of appreciating that as I'm hearing
you speak really profound truth in very expansive and digestible ways.

Speaker 2 (50:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (50:28):
No, it's very healing in my tradition whenever you hear rain,
especially on retreats and things like that. But like, you know,
shout out to you, like whenever I'm with you, like
I feel like I have space to speak and you
somehow get the best of me.

Speaker 3 (50:40):
So just do all of my podcasts from now a
lot time.

Speaker 2 (50:44):
Let's go on a tour. I love that, you know.

Speaker 1 (50:48):
So there's something happening in the industry right now, and
I don't necessarily feel called directly to call it out,
but things are searchable and you'll find the things. But
there's someone who occupied a very large platform that has
been I guess in some ways the language that I
would use is called out for some of their business
practices in terms of having a spirituality business and having

(51:13):
a coaching business. And we've really kind of been overtaken
by this coaching culture and it hasn't really made sense
to me in a lot of ways. I know phenomenal
coaches and I myself have a lot of personal clients
in a lot of different worlds and spaces, but I've
been seeing a lot of models of people selling courses

(51:37):
about how to coach other people, or like coaches selling
courses about how to be two other coaches about how
to make more money, and it just it feels so
multi level marketing. And I just I've always kind of
the last few years because I believe in this work,

(51:59):
because I've believe in humanity, and I believe in doing
this work in servant leadership personally that does not have
to be everyone else's choice or path. Again, secure your bag,
whatever you need. But I have not seen enough people
position what they offer the world as being service with

(52:20):
a desire to really inform, uplift and give people an
education that is useful to other people, that is freeing
to other people. The way I keep seeing certain businesses positioned.
It's always along the lines of earn six figures, earn
seven figures. I make money by showing people how to

(52:42):
do this. And whenever I've looked at for my own curiosity,
the way things are structured, it's always like I don't
ever actually see anyone giving anyone meaningful advice on how
to be an integral, supportive, deemed coach or teacher. It's
always saying, double your prices, ask for more, triple your prices,

(53:07):
believe in yourself, don't have imposter syndrome. And it's like,
what are we talking about and what are we selling
and what are we actually doing? And it is harmful.
It is harmful, it is disingenuous, it is out of integrity.
It is hurtful to people who have experienced real trauma

(53:29):
and are in pain. And I find it to be
incredibly predatory, and I reject predatory practices within the spiritual
and wellness community.

Speaker 3 (53:41):
Yeah, Debby, just David some and y'all got you that
there rain't a real.

Speaker 4 (53:47):
Rough, But no, I felt every word. I really felt
every word. And let me just take a moment to
like let it, let it wash over me. I think
we live in times that are really tough, you know.
I think that we are all looking to make our
lives easier and people are looking for healing and those

(54:10):
two things at a time where people are trying to
be hyper individualistic. Financial systems are crumbling and making it harder.

Speaker 3 (54:21):
Life is not easy.

Speaker 4 (54:22):
It's a confluence of things that are just blowing up.
And yeah, people are looking to make a bag. Absolutely, Like,
I don't think we can doubt the fact that wellness
is an industry. Yeah, and for rightly or wrongly, there
are don't I don't begrudge people making money. I think
that you know, you know, we've invested so much money

(54:43):
in studying and traveling and buying books and all that,
and yeah, I don't think people should feel bad about it.

Speaker 3 (54:51):
My issue is with the fuck do you know? Like?
What do you know? Like?

Speaker 4 (54:57):
If you if you if you know stuff like I'll
pay as much as I can, but teach me something
that I don't know, right and I'm if I'm going
to go in on this with you. My criticism is
that I have very rarely heard a coach say something
that you cannot google for free, you know, that's not

(55:19):
available on YouTube or a podcast or in books that
I've been written twenty thirty, forty fifty years ago. Much
of it these days is people regurgitating the same thing,
and yeah, having clever marketing schemes and all of that.
And look, if it helps someone, then I'm who am
I to really judge?

Speaker 3 (55:39):
Right?

Speaker 4 (55:40):
Cynical, bitter old man? Perhaps maybe that's what it is.
But I feel my life's work and I say this
actually every Friday morning in my meditation class, I offer
this to you for you to really criticize, for you
to really analyze if what I'm saying is of any
value to you, and if it's not, just sit here
and look at taking the vibes. You know, we have

(56:01):
a beautiful oculus and like there's music like take that in.
But people that are listening to this, you have to
really be more critical with who you follow, like you
really do, because it can take you down a worse place.
And that's like what people don't talk about in the
spiritual world, right, Like, if people can it can take

(56:22):
you down a worse place than where you began. Because
this is bypassing. This is exactly what we're talking about.
You wanting to be a coach and wanting to help someone,
first do the work and I and I have. My
main criticism is like, and I'm sorry if this hits
you in between your eyes, but you know, like a
twenty two to twenty three year old life coach, I'm like, son,

(56:46):
what are you going to tell me about life?

Speaker 3 (56:48):
Like you haven't even experienced life just yet, right, So
go and learn about life.

Speaker 4 (56:52):
Go and really alchemize your pain, Go and overcome suffering.
Go and help people for free, work in prisons, work
in hospice care, you know, experience grief and like, then
talk about it and don't yell it, don't jump on
social media and pay for these ads and do all
of that that she ain't gonna impress me. Like you know,

(57:13):
my teacher, sonya Rimbaschet, my main teacher right now.

Speaker 3 (57:17):
He doesn't really post anything.

Speaker 4 (57:19):
His brother is posts a lot, but like he doesn't
need to because people talk about him, you know, they
talk about him.

Speaker 3 (57:26):
All over the world.

Speaker 4 (57:27):
And yeah, the same way we come across healers, right,
the same way we come across heelers.

Speaker 3 (57:32):
It's not through googling them or even Instagram.

Speaker 4 (57:35):
It's I get like, you're the actually will never forget
the what's her name? The medium that you told me
about Kerry, Like you told me about that and I'm like, oh,
this is amazing, and she was incredible, But I don't
think she has an Instagram or any of that sort
of stuff. So a long way of really answering that

(57:56):
everyone listening just really be more more discerning with who
you follow, really be more discerning. I don't feel the
need to criticize them, to be honest, because I feel like,
at the end of the day, I believe the truth
will always be found, and you can go to someone
and you might have three, four years, five years with them,
and if you're meant to be on this path, the

(58:17):
truth will find you. The truth will not miss you
if you keep digging, if you keep looking like this
I know to be true beyond anything else in my life,
is that if you are dedicated to finding the truth,
to finding love, to finding God, like you will not
miss you. And maybe you have to go through a
couple of wrong doors in order to find your way there.

(58:41):
But I believe that to be true in my life,
and you know, people can I've gone to so many
different yoga studios before I found the truth, but I
had to go. I had to keep asking myself where
am I going to find healing? Where am I going
to find healing?

Speaker 3 (58:58):
And I would go and I'm like, maybe this is it,
but there are lots of cute girls here. I'm like, Nope.

Speaker 4 (59:03):
Six months later, that's not it for me because that
gets tiring and I'm like this is just kind of fluffy.
And then I get another studio and it became about
the body and I was like, oh, yeah, I'm getting abs.

Speaker 3 (59:14):
And this is great, but am I free?

Speaker 4 (59:16):
Like no, So there's this innate desire that keeps like
yanking you. And you know my tradition that will say,
first the voice whispers, then the voice yells, and eventually
the voice takes something of you. And that taking something
could be a nervous breakdown, It could be an anxiety attack,

(59:37):
could be an injury when you have to be like
the fuck have I been doing? Like like what have
I been doing? I don't know if any of that
makes sense, but like that was I'm speaking Like as
I was saying it, I'm like, that's my teacher that's
actually speaking through me. At the moment where you have
to believe that what is meant for you won't miss you.

Speaker 2 (01:00:01):
Oh what a gift, What a gift, What a gift,
What a gift? Gift, gift deeply.

Speaker 1 (01:00:14):
Well, something that I'm really gleaning from what you're saying,
that I really believe in, and I really want to
land with those listening because I have. There are so
many amazing souls that listen to this show that are
not just doing and committed to deeply doing their own work.

Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
I hear you and I see you.

Speaker 1 (01:00:38):
But we also have so many teachers listening to us now,
real teachers, real people in service, from psychologists to therapists.
There are so many people that tell me they found
my show because their therapists recommended it to them, which
brings me immense gratitude and pride.

Speaker 3 (01:00:56):
But and you deserve that too, by the way, you
deserve the.

Speaker 1 (01:01:00):
Thank you, thank you it. But I think you know,
and I feel really grateful that the community of this show,
the listenership, there's just so much integrity in this community,
and there's so much desire for wisdom, deep lived experience

(01:01:23):
that is ready to be alchemized as wisdom and every
person listening. But I think you know on this path
that we've been on, and you have shared really beautifully,
and you have been so beautifully present and your humility
of paying homage to those who have taught you. That
is a piece that is really missing right now, right

(01:01:44):
the pride in being a student. Yes, and I remember
when I first started studying and doing some of the
harder work on myself, because my God is at hard
my God. Have I wept for myself on my knees
over the years, and you know, grieved myself and others

(01:02:05):
over the years. But it felt so sacred to learn.
It felt so sacred to learn the work and to
learn it slowly and to kind of build devotion. Like
to me, the building of the devotion was one of
the things that taught me how to have worth in myself,

(01:02:26):
that taught me how to accept myself, to see the
world as beautiful. You know, it's that kind of slow
unfolding and I know we want to rush through it
because of how much it hurts, or because we're in
a circumstance where we do need to earn and we want.

Speaker 2 (01:02:40):
To care for ourselves.

Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
But that is a piece that doesn't get spoken to
with the level of depth and romance that I think
you've been sharing it with On this show. There is
so much divine beauty in being a student in apprenticeship,
in slow observation. I remember I was in this for
three years with two of my teachers, and we would

(01:03:04):
be in class for three days out of every month,
and they would be twelve hours each day. Could not
leave the room for nearly twelve hours every day, three
days in a row for three years.

Speaker 3 (01:03:15):
And I remember the old school study that she.

Speaker 2 (01:03:20):
Was immersed.

Speaker 1 (01:03:22):
But and that you know, that's one of the programs
I've done to Ben. I'm I'm a brain. I love,
I love to study and learn. But I remember even
allowing myself to walk through the phases of rejecting my teachers,
loving my teachers, getting angry at my teachers, feeling grateful.

Speaker 2 (01:03:41):
For my teachers. But it was the ability to slowly
observe the mastery. And both of these teachers were in
their early eighties when I was in class with them.

Speaker 1 (01:03:51):
To this day, it will bring me to tears at
how much I realized I learned merely from watching their
body life language, you know, like noticing the tone of voice,
noticing the shifts, noticing them really see other people and
decide for themselves.

Speaker 2 (01:04:09):
Will I give you what you want or what you need.

Speaker 1 (01:04:12):
Yeah, you know, and it's like that's what builds the
discipline and the compassion that is so necessary to embody
the work and then to share the work, and so
to let yourself take the time, you know, if you're
called to teach, you know, if you're called to share
this with the world, and the way that you're meant
to share.

Speaker 4 (01:04:32):
It at a choice at that point, yeah, yeah, right, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:04:35):
But it's like it's it's the beauty. Everyone wants it
to be fast and they want to be an expert.
And the second you know, I've noticed, for some for
a certain kind of demographic of people, the second you
read a book about a modality, you now are convinced,
not that you need to go to the certification, not

(01:04:57):
that you need to study it, not that you need
to witness it, that now you're ready to teach it
because you enjoyed it and the way it worked in you.
But this work is also not just about what it
does for you and your expertise of yourself. It's space
for others. It's space for humanity. And I just I
really have to say to you, I'm so grateful you exist.

(01:05:21):
I'm so grateful for the way you teach and the
way you share yourself, and the way you are able
to so eloquently impart these deep truths that are so
necessary for the people that are ready to receive them.

Speaker 3 (01:05:38):
I'm going to take a moment and receive that. Thank you,
Thank you.

Speaker 4 (01:05:43):
I think it's so beautiful to actually be with someone
in presence of someone that is also being in the
presence of masters, and realize how fortunate we've been to
have experienced that, you know, and if you ever get
the chance, you know, for those of you that are
listening to be with a master, like someone that has
put in the work, like hours and hours and hours,

(01:06:06):
and that you don't even have to initially anyway question
like are they legit? You know, like and if they're
from Instagram, I would probably you know, steer clear of them,
to be really honest with you, like being their presence.
Being their presence, then you know that so much of
what you learn from them is not what they say,
you know. And my teacher I witnessed like he taught

(01:06:27):
out of he had like a converted milk bar, like
a little corner store, and he turned it into a
yoga studio, which had twelve mats my first class. Everyone
was over the age of seventy five. And I saw
people that were coming in there that were suicidal, people
that came in there that had so much trauma and

(01:06:49):
pain and suffering, and he would just take them out
to coffee and in his like, come, come and invite
a few of us, and he would sit there and
he would listen to them, and he would look at
them in certain ways, and I was like, oh, wow, Like,
there's something that you can't teach that's here. You know,
there's there's This is compassion. It's not talking about compassion.

(01:07:11):
This is compassion. It's like giving his last few hundred,
you know, dollars to someone that needed it even though
he had no money.

Speaker 3 (01:07:19):
And I was that forever. Has changed my life.

Speaker 4 (01:07:22):
And the reason I'm so devoted to my teachers is
because I know for sure I would be nothing without
them one hundred percent.

Speaker 3 (01:07:30):
It is through karma, through the.

Speaker 4 (01:07:32):
Grace of God, that in this life that I had
the good fortune to be exposed to them, and nothing,
I honestly don't think anything is my think. Everything I've
learned is through them, and I have found my way
of disseminating their words, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:07:47):
In my language.

Speaker 4 (01:07:49):
But that protection, it's like this, we call it, you know,
the Guruz protection, the Gurus field. That protection I've always
been so grateful for because acknowledging my teacher has meant
that there's this force field around you where he's like,
whenever I talk about him, I feel his energy first

(01:08:09):
of all, and there's a graciousness and his humility to
know that his words came from his teacher, and his
words came from her teacher.

Speaker 3 (01:08:21):
And there's this long lineage.

Speaker 4 (01:08:23):
Of people that have critiqued and practiced and analyzed, and
they've also paid homage to their teachers, you know, and
so forth. And for me, that just cuts down this
burning desire to be individual, this ego that's like, oh,
you are someone. You are the co founder of.

Speaker 3 (01:08:41):
This cool meditation studio.

Speaker 4 (01:08:43):
You wear this and you know what, Like my teacher
warned me sixteen years ago, and I'm sorry this sounds
a little conceited, He's like, you're a good looking guy,
You've got a great voice.

Speaker 3 (01:08:55):
You are going to have people like all over you.

Speaker 4 (01:08:58):
I guarantee you the moment you take that to be
who you are, that will be the end. And that
struck the fear of God in me because early on,
like I was teaching and I had women like literally
after a class like and I my insecureself didn't.

Speaker 3 (01:09:15):
Know what to do with myself.

Speaker 4 (01:09:16):
I was like, oh shit, Like but I'd go home
and I talk to my teacher about it. I'm like, hey,
like I think, and he's like, it's part of your practice,
like witness it. Like witness it, witness it, witness it,
but know that there is there is a gift that
you have been given, but don't take advantage of that.

Speaker 3 (01:09:35):
And I think, I thank.

Speaker 4 (01:09:39):
Life and God that I've never dated a student and
I've never you know, fallen victim to that. And yes,
my ego sometimes gets really inflated with you know, certain
things that I do. But then I come back to
my practice. Every morning, I lad a candle for my teacher,
I give I put water in front of his photo,
and I'm like, it's not for me, it's not because
of me, It's because of what I learned. And yeah,

(01:10:02):
I mean, if you haven't caught already, Like, my ego
pops up at times and I have to actively work
at it because society and culture loves to idolize you
just enough to break you back down. Right, they'll they'll
worship you one day and they'll cut you down the
next day. And the best way to not fall into
that loop is to not worship yourself right, to be

(01:10:23):
grateful for yourself, to be devoted to the students, and
to be more importantly devoted to the practice. Because it's
that that's healing people. It's nothing I'm really saying that's
original on new It's these words that are just coming
from these vocal cords and somehow, if it's landing, it's
meant to be at that person, it's meant to be

(01:10:43):
at that time. But your hyperindividualism in society these days
is a thing, and it seduces so many teachers, so
many coaches because we think that, you know, we have
to be someone in order to make a living or
to make change, and.

Speaker 1 (01:10:59):
Then everything has to be a brand, right Yeah, yeah,
how about let it.

Speaker 2 (01:11:03):
Be your gift.

Speaker 4 (01:11:04):
Let it just be yeah, let it be something that
you share that heals people, which is if you're really
about this life, that should be it. Like you should
be like you should be just sharing because it helps people.
It shouldn't be behind a paywall, like just give that
shit out and yeah, you know, I.

Speaker 3 (01:11:23):
It's just a weird, crazy world that we live in.

Speaker 4 (01:11:25):
And you know, I'm so grateful for people like you
to actually call you a friend and know how much
you care about these things, because I do feel like
the older I get, the more like those teachers are
only at certain places, you know, like at certain communities,
and we need people like you that have credibility and

(01:11:46):
authority and that have a following to really hold true.

Speaker 3 (01:11:50):
To these things.

Speaker 4 (01:11:51):
That yeah, because I mean, this is what I've learned
living in LA And again, no more shade to LA
after this, living in America, actually just living in America?

Speaker 3 (01:12:01):
Is it?

Speaker 4 (01:12:01):
The government doesn't isn't going to protect you? Right, the
systems of health care isn't going to protect you. We
have to look after ourselves. We have to look after
each other like that much I know for true and
if we are relying on that, if it has to
be about this communal living, this communal way of existence,
then we need people actually testing people and being like

(01:12:25):
are you telling the truth?

Speaker 3 (01:12:27):
Like am I doing this for money?

Speaker 4 (01:12:30):
Because more and more people are going to look for
holistic healing the older we get and the more we
go in future, because health care is so expensive, and
if we then have like this holistic healing program that
we're creating that's behind this paywall that we've learned in
a weekend seminar, you know, two years ago, then people

(01:12:51):
are going to fall victim to that.

Speaker 3 (01:12:52):
And that's sad.

Speaker 4 (01:12:53):
And I pray and I hope that you know, we
all have the integrity within ourselves to know how much
power we have. And I think you and I know
as teachers, like what I say really matters because there
are thousands of people that listen to me every day
on the app. So I'll never say anything that I
don't believe in myself ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, And

(01:13:16):
I've said no to brand partnerships that have come at
times where I really needed money because I just know
that this is going to cause harm.

Speaker 3 (01:13:28):
And if I doubt it, then it's a note for me.

Speaker 1 (01:13:31):
Thank you for being this archetype, thank you for this embodiment.
This is so powerful, minage like it is just so powerful.
Deeply well, I want to share two quotes from my

(01:13:53):
teacher that I think could be useful for what we
have just been expressing. So one of them actually comes
from deeper and It's one of my favorite things that
he would say when we'd be at retreats and someone
would say, like we'd started getting some questions out there
the pandemic at retreats, or would be like, but how
do I make money? How do I make this my life?

(01:14:14):
And you know, he would just look and say, the
money will come from wherever it is at the moment.

Speaker 2 (01:14:20):
And I remember the first time you said that, it
caught me solf guard. I was like what, and I.

Speaker 1 (01:14:26):
Said, I said, Oh God, that's so powerful and true.
You don't have to worry about it. Like everything, when
you lock into an alignment, when you were in your
personal integrity and really kind of standing openly in your
dharma and your purpose, the universe always conspires to uplift

(01:14:52):
your work, to uplift you and to meet your needs.

Speaker 4 (01:14:57):
Pause, Can I just to illustrate you point? Can I
share a story maybe someone can resonate with this. So
I had a career in marketing and advertising and I
got really sick, like physically, very very sick, and I
couldn't work because I had a really big panic attack
one day at work. And there was about two years
that I didn't work. My mother was looking after me.

(01:15:18):
And it was in that period that I found my
teacher and I started practicing with him every day, and
I was getting better. I was getting healed, and my
mental health was coming back. My physical health had come back.
I was pretty much like an eating disorder and I
had really bad panic attacks and things like that.

Speaker 3 (01:15:38):
Anyway, after the two years, I got a job.

Speaker 4 (01:15:41):
I was back at you know, working in this fancy
financial institution in marketing and advertising. And then he asked
me to teach a class and he did it in
a way that was not expected. I rocked up to
take his class and he said, I don't feel well today,
can you teach it?

Speaker 3 (01:15:58):
And I'm like, oh, oh okay, like I'd never taught before.

Speaker 4 (01:16:01):
And so I went there and I just you know,
took in all of what he said, and I started teaching.
And then he came and sat in the class and
he wasn't sick right, And I was like strange, Like
my teacher's coming and doing this. Anyway, I went back
to work, and then every now and again i'd teach
this one class, you know, whenever he was sick. And
then he said to me one day, eventually, life film,

(01:16:24):
you'll teach. And this was seventeen years ago where I
was like and I was like, I don't want to
be a meditation teacher, like you don't make money. And
it was like frowned upon, right, And I was in
a circle of very cool people going to parties or
that anyway, but there was this little flicker within me
that's like I feel really happy every time I'm teaching,

(01:16:45):
Like I just feel like I'm in alignment to what
you said. I feel like like I don't have to
struggle when I'm doing this one thing, which is teaching.
And so there was a moment where I was like,
fuck it, I'm going to go all in. I'm just
going to teach and mind you. I'm taking you back
like sixteen fifteen years now, and I had a daughter.

(01:17:07):
I have a daughter, Sill, but at the point at
that time she was very young. I had a six
figure salary, was making one hundred and fifty K. I
was in my late twenties, and I'm like, oh, I
just feel like this is it. It just feels so true.
So I quit my job and I started teaching at
any studio that would take me.

Speaker 3 (01:17:25):
And for the first year, I made.

Speaker 4 (01:17:27):
Thirty five thousand dollars, like you couldn't even barely exist
on that. And I kept on borrowing money from my
mom and dad, obviously, but not much because they didn't
have much either.

Speaker 3 (01:17:37):
But every time I did it, I was just so happy.

Speaker 4 (01:17:41):
And since that year, I've never like, I've never felt
like I could live off you know, nothing again, but
like I never wanted anything. I never wanted fancy clothes
and dinners or anything. I was so happy the second year,
this the biggest studio in Australia, is like, we want
you to teach for us, and we're going to give
you a full time job, and we're going to make

(01:18:02):
you this fancy title of performance coach. And from that
moment on, every decision I made which was in alignment
with what I was feeling at the time, and my
intuition took me down the path that I'm on now.
The money came to your point, like the money came,
like the job came, the courier came.

Speaker 3 (01:18:21):
But I was just in alignment.

Speaker 4 (01:18:22):
I was doing what I knew to be true, what
I knew to be of benefit to the world, and
I wasn't thinking about how much money I was going
to make. I was like this just feels good, Like
this just feels right. And I think to your point,
if you put the money thing out of which is
really paradoxical because we need money and I'm not saying
just forget money and do it, but if you genuinely

(01:18:45):
approach your life through the perspective of I am going
to be of benefit to others, there is something and
you might have better language for it. There is something
that conspires to make sure that you are taken care of.
And it might not look the way that it looks now.
And I went through fifteen years of not making any
money to eventually feeling like, oh I've got something. And

(01:19:09):
it's a long road, but like I promise you, if
you follow your heart and you be of benefit to
the world, then something happens something I don't know, maybe
DEBI has the words for a bit, there's something that happens.

Speaker 1 (01:19:21):
I mean, that's a mic drop, like that is just it,
and your personal testimony of it is just.

Speaker 3 (01:19:29):
So.

Speaker 1 (01:19:29):
I think so much of people's those leading desires for
this quote unquote like abundance culture is like it's the
zeitgeist of this time, right, Like yes, there are kind
of we're in this millionaire culture right now, this multi
millionaire culture, and everything keeps being shaped around it, and
it's about.

Speaker 4 (01:19:50):
Because it's so accessible. Yeah, it's never been this accessible
in a lifetime. Like could you imagine being a multimillion
dollar meditation teacher? Yeah, like that blows my mind in
the history of life, that has a never happened. But
also going from zero to one hundred has never been
as easy without like a social media brand, partnerships, talent managers, TikTok.

(01:20:14):
So it's to your point, it is, it's it's speaking
to our times, but.

Speaker 1 (01:20:19):
It's you know, and this is kind of my my
thing with internet culture. I believe that we have been
investing so much in perception these last ten years, and
so much in these quote unquote soft skills, right, Like
we've been bouncing through all of these different kind of
ideologies of what makes something worse, what makes someone worthy

(01:20:41):
in life or makes their work worthy, And so it's
like we just got out of the like, you know,
the founder culture where everyone was I'm a founder, I'm
a founder of this.

Speaker 2 (01:20:50):
I'm like, well, what is it? Right?

Speaker 1 (01:20:51):
And it's like anything that if you bought a URL
that you didn't even do anything with there was this
expectation of celebration because you announced it, or expectation of
celebration and kind of what to me feels like false
valor for giving yourself the title and kind of faking
it till you make it, but not leaning into the

(01:21:12):
work and the work of whatever it is that we
do is important because the work of our life is
important and something that actually another one of my teachers,
one of my coaches, actually Vish he shares. He said
to me once like, Debbie, it's your life's work. It's
going to take your whole life.

Speaker 3 (01:21:34):
Boss.

Speaker 1 (01:21:35):
Him saying that to me so radically changed me and
the way because for me, I put a lot of
pressure on myself of having ideas or having a way
that I know I want to serve and then feeling
like it has like I have to make I have
to get all the pieces now and I have to
give it now, and you know, and he was like,
and even when I think of the work on myself,

(01:21:55):
I'm never not working on myself. He's just like, all
of it is the work of your life. It's supposed
to take your whole life. And it's really only now
in this moment that we want everything to be so immediate,
and we want to be able to claim expertise about
anything immediately or claim completion about anything immediately, and I

(01:22:18):
think it's really long term going to cause quite a
bit of suffering. We have a lot of soft skills
present which we needed to exist in our workplaces. We
needed to have better more empathy, more communication, more compassion,
better understanding of self. But I feel like we've been
leaning so hard on the soft skills the last ten
years that people actually don't have hard skills. You have

(01:22:40):
to actually do the work you say you do. You
actually have to know how to do the work that
you say that you do, and it's honorable. It's honorable
to know how to do your work.

Speaker 3 (01:22:50):
And that was the second Simon de drop you off.

Speaker 4 (01:22:54):
No, I mean when you say those things, I feel
it because it's true, Like it's it's really true. But
I was going to say one of the reasons I
kind of really loved teaching in New York because that
feels like home to me for many reasons. But one
of the reasons I love teaching in New York is
that people will interrupt you mid conversation and they're like,

(01:23:15):
how can you explain that to me.

Speaker 3 (01:23:17):
And I'm like, that.

Speaker 4 (01:23:18):
Level of cynicism, that level of critique really makes you
a good teacher. So I have a lot of respect
for like teachers that have been teaching for a long
time in New York City.

Speaker 3 (01:23:29):
But I always think of you know, if you're.

Speaker 4 (01:23:31):
A coach, if you're a meditation teacher, breath work, yog
or whatever, you have to be able to a embody
what you're teaching, and you have to be able to
be up there and answer questions and justify why you're
saying what you're saying, like you're.

Speaker 3 (01:23:46):
Telling me to let go, like why, like explain to me.

Speaker 4 (01:23:49):
Then explain to me how, because otherwise it's just a
superfluous word like just let go right, Like, no, explain
it to me, because I want to learn.

Speaker 3 (01:23:58):
I just don't want to feel good.

Speaker 4 (01:23:59):
I don't want to hear this nice sounding word in
your beautifully articulated voice.

Speaker 3 (01:24:04):
I want the tools to take with me and embody.

Speaker 4 (01:24:07):
And so this integrity which you are speaking of is
going to be so valuable because never in the history
of wellness has there been so many teacher trainings. So
I refuse to do one I've been asked for like
fifteen years. What are you going to I refuse to
do one because I don't know enough yet to be honest,
Like I don't know nowhere near enough to give a training.

Speaker 3 (01:24:28):
But what the work you're doing here?

Speaker 1 (01:24:30):
We just sit of that for a second, that you,
with your pedigree, with your extensive, extensive, extensive amount of
learning and devotion to yourself and your practice, are saying.

Speaker 2 (01:24:47):
No to that.

Speaker 3 (01:24:50):
It's bad business move, but it's honestly, I.

Speaker 2 (01:24:54):
Know money will come from wherever it's.

Speaker 4 (01:24:56):
At exactly, but I know it in my heart. I
know I don't know enough and I'm still learning and
I'm working on it. But I genuinely feel with the
influx of all these trainings and certifications and things like
that are happening, like we're going to be so overwhelmed
that a period of time it's going to be like
fuck all of this, like forget all of this, Like
there's too many fake things. And I see it now,

(01:25:18):
like people don't know who to go for because everyone
is a wellness coach, everyone is an influencer, are doing
that and that, and there are new things with psychedelics happening,
and then it's going to be so overwhelming. So the
work that you're doing right now, people are going to
look back and be like, oh wow, this person's study
for fifteen years. They can like they know this particular

(01:25:40):
text or this practice, and they're articulating in a way
that feels so true. Like people aren't going to forget
that because I guarantee you in five years we're going
to have so many coaches that it's going to be
so overwhelming for people, and the ones that have studied
will rise to the top. The truth, like I said before,

(01:26:00):
will be found and everything else people will be able
to see through that, but the truth will be able
to be found. So my advice to you, if you're
listening and you're a coach, be the truth.

Speaker 2 (01:26:16):
Be the truth. God, that's good.

Speaker 1 (01:26:19):
This might have been my longest recorded show I've ever done.
Shout out to Denisha and thank you so much for
the grace. I we end every show offering a little
bit of soul work to the community, and that can
be an inquiry, that can be a practice, that can
just be a thought, but something that can be savored

(01:26:42):
past this episode to kind of sit with for the week.
So I'd like to ask if you have anything in
this moment that you can share.

Speaker 4 (01:26:50):
Yeah, it's so simple. After this conversation. What is the
work that you're avoiding doing?

Speaker 3 (01:27:00):
Wow?

Speaker 4 (01:27:00):
Yes, just do it. What is the work you're voting doing? Yeah,
and thank you for prompting this whole conversation before we
even started.

Speaker 1 (01:27:11):
Chatting my friend. What an honor, what a privilege to
have you on this show. Thank you so much for
saying yes. And thank you. You are a masterful, masterful, masterful,
master teacher. And thank you for the work you've done

(01:27:33):
to cultivate that within yourself so that you can serve
and lead with it.

Speaker 2 (01:27:37):
Thank you for being here.

Speaker 3 (01:27:38):
Thank you so much, and thank you my dear friend.
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:27:44):
Please download the app and study with Minage in person.
Open Open, open the open app, and open studios in venice.

Speaker 2 (01:27:53):
Until next time.

Speaker 1 (01:27:54):
Oh wait, I can't leave the show without saying this.
Make sure to check me out at the annual Black
Effect Podcast to Festival. I will be in Atlanta Saturday,
April twenty seven. I'll be doing a live show from
the festival stage on the Black Effect Network and tickets
are available now. I really hope to see you there.
Hit me on the ground. Black Effect dot Com Backslash
Podcast Festival, not Mistday HO, Misday HO, mis Day Homestay.

(01:28:21):
The content presented on Deeply Well serves solely for educational
and informational purposes. It should not be considered a replacement
for personalized medical or mental health guidance and does not
constitute a provider patient relationship. As always, it is advisable
to consult with your healthcare provider or health team for

(01:28:42):
any specific concerns or questions that you may have. Connect
with me on social at Debbie Brown. That's Twitter and Instagram,
or you can go to my website Debbie Brown dot com.
And if you're listening to the show on Apple Podcasts,
don't forget, Please rate, review, and subscript and send this
episode to a friend. Deeply Well is a production of

(01:29:04):
iHeartRadio and The Black Effect Network.

Speaker 2 (01:29:06):
It's produced by Jacquess.

Speaker 1 (01:29:08):
Thomas, Samantha Timmins, and me Debbie Brown. The Beautiful Soundbath
You Heard That's by Jarrelyn Glass from Crystal Cadence. For
more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.

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Devi Brown

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