Erased: What American Patriarchy Has Hidden from Us with Anna Malaika Tubbs

In this episode of Deeply Well, we explore the sacred and often overlooked virtue of honor, what it means, how it shows up in our lives, and the powerful ripple effect it creates in our relationships, communities, and sense of self.

Joining the conversation is the brilliant author and advocate Anna Malaika Tubbs, whose work centers around legacy, lineage, and the untold stories of those who came before us. Together, we dive into the meaning of honoring, not just as a concept, but as a daily practice. From honoring our ancestors to honoring our own boundaries, this conversation invites you to reflect on the ways reverence and remembrance can shape a more intentional life.

Anna shares heartfelt wisdom and poignant quotes from her journey, offering profound perspectives on what it means to carry the torch of those who came before us, and how to do it with grace, truth, and integrity.

This episode is a beautiful focus on remembrance, presence, and how the act of honoring can serve as a compass for healing and purpose.

Learn More AnnaMalaikaTubbs.com

Connect @DeviBrown @AnnaMalaikaTubbs

Order: "Living in Wisdom" DeviBrown.com Now Available!

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:27):
Take a deep breath in through your nose.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
Holds it.

Speaker 3 (00:36):
Now, release slowly.

Speaker 2 (00:43):
Again deep in halle.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
Hold release, repeating internally to yourself as you connect to
my voice. I am deeply, deeply well. I am deeply,

(01:16):
deeply well. I am deeply wow.

Speaker 4 (01:30):
I'm Debbie Brown and this is the Deeply Well Podcast.
Welcome to Deeply Well, a soft place to land on
your journey. A podcast for those that are curious, creative,
and ready to expand in higher consciousness and self care.

(01:53):
This is where we heal, this is where we transcend.
I'm Debbie Brown. Welcome back to the Deeply Well Podcast.
As always, I'm just so grateful you're here, and I
am loving every time you tag me and I get
to see a peek into your lives, especially if you
watch this on YouTube. Seeing it spread out on your TV.

(02:14):
Seeing your life, seeing the beautiful things in your homes
or what you're drinking and you're eating as you are
expanding and processing, literally fills me up inside.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
So please keep it coming.

Speaker 4 (02:26):
This week, I am We are going to some new
places on the show today and I just cannot wait
to share this special human with you. We have a
truly special guest joining us, someone whose work has deeply
impacted the way that we understand history, identity, and power.
We're diving into the erasure of women, especially Black women,

(02:48):
from the narrative of American history, the systems that perpetuate it,
and how we begin to reclaim what has been lost.
We're also going to explore what it means to honor difference,
to unearthed truth, and to do so with both rigor
and heart. Our guest today is Anna Malika Tubbs, an

(03:09):
extraordinary thinker, storyteller, and advocate who's committed her life to
celebrating the voices and contributions to often left out of
the story. Let me tell you a little bit more
about her. Anna Melika Tubbs is a two time New
York Times best selling storyteller who grew up in Dubai, Mexico, Sweden, Estonia, Azerbaijan,

(03:37):
as well as the United States. Influenced by her exposure
to all kinds of cultures and beliefs, Anna is inspired
to bring people together through the celebration of difference. Motivated
by her mother's work advocating for women's and children's rights
around the world, Anna uses the intersectional lens to advocate
for women of color and educate others in all of

(03:59):
her projects. Anna holds a PhD in sociology and a
master's in Multidisciplinary Gender Studies from the University of Cambridge,
in addition to a bachelor's in medical anthropology from Stanford University.
She takes from her academic background and produces content that
is easy for others to connect with and understand. Her

(04:22):
focus is on addressing gender and race issues in the US,
especially the pervasive erasure of Black women in e race.
New York Times best selling author Anamalika Tub's challenges the
sanitized narrative of American history with her signature blend of
research and engaging storytelling. Tubbs reveals how a deeply entrenched,

(04:44):
gendered hierarchy rooted in both patriarchy and whiteness, has systematically
erased the contributions of women and marginalized voices. This book
recovers the tools we need to take American patriarchy apart.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
Welcome to the show.

Speaker 3 (05:02):
Wow, thank you so much for having me. That is
one of the best introductions, so thoughtful, so sweet that
I've ever heard.

Speaker 4 (05:09):
Thank you truly, thank you so much, And you know
intros honestly mean so much to me on this show, truly,
because I think it's so in a world that is
so oversaturated by so many voices. We're on a planet
of nine billion. There is a lot of information, there
is a lot of perspective, but I feel it's so
important to do a few things. One grounded and grounded

(05:33):
in the person and what their bigger journey in life is,
and also really highlight that when people come into an expertise,
how much that actually requires and how deserving of reverence
that is.

Speaker 3 (05:46):
Oh, thank you. I think especially at a time where
there are a lot of quote experts, yeah, trying at
least to represent themselves that way, and people want to
trust other people, and so we oftentimes can't really sift
through who does know what they're talking about, either because
they've had lived experience or because they've studied it. Those

(06:06):
are both different forms of expertise. But there are a
lot of people out there who are posing as experts
and who, in my opinion, we can't really always trust.
And so I do find that helpful at least when
we can frame it sometimes and say, yes, this is
somebody that you can trust that you know, we've studied
this or we've spent time working on this, and that

(06:29):
doesn't have to be from whatever university. There's a lot
of ways in which people can become experts in their fields.
But I think, especially right now, we have to be
conscious of anybody out there putting content out there and
why they're doing it and with what motivation, but also
with what experience.

Speaker 4 (06:45):
Oh my god, so deeply agree with that.

Speaker 2 (06:48):
I think.

Speaker 4 (06:48):
You know, we have been in fifteen years of centering
self right and a lot of reactionary content based on
you know, a personal opinion, not always a deeply thought
about opinion, right, but just kind of a personal opinion,
and the desire for attention for having opinions about things,

(07:10):
and you know, on the path of wisdom, shout out,
living a wisdom, but yes, on the path of wisdom.
You know, it's really it's such slow, steady work developing perspective,
really understanding how to even apply expertise to the things
happening in the world now to help others.

Speaker 3 (07:29):
I struggle with this all the time because really, as
a writer, you know, there's this need obviously to get
your work out there, but the way our climate currently works,
in order to get attention, you have to respond as
fast as possible, and so there's so many people who
ask me, Hona, please, will you give me your reaction
to this thing. You know, you're an expert in these topics.
We want to know what you feel about what just

(07:52):
happened today. And I can say yes, based off of
all the things that I've studied, I could give you
a really quick reaction, but I like to take at
least day, maybe two. It sets us up in a
way where in order to be noticed, you feel like
you have to rush something, and that's it's a hard

(08:12):
thing to then really reach a very thoughtful perspective where
you're considering all the other possibilities to what you might
have to say. I'm somebody who wants to consider those things,
but I'm also trying to step into my own courage
a little bit more around this, because I have to
remind myself, actually, Anna, you've studied these things deeply. Your
reaction to something actually could be really helpful to people

(08:35):
without having to take too much time. So there's a
duality there. It's a little it's a little bit difficult
to know. Sometimes for me, it's not my nature to say, Okay,
here we go. I'm going to answer that right away,
but I am trying actually to see what might happen
if I step a little bit away from feeling like
I need to be so prepared and remind myself that

(08:56):
I have been preparing for these moments for a really
long time. I've earned that I actually can share my
thoughts without having to practice something or write something down
or do all the research. I have a lot of
that wisdom within me now, and I'm growing in that
wisdom constantly. So I think about this all the time.

Speaker 4 (09:15):
But I love that. I love that so much. Yeah,
because at certain points it really does become about self trust, Like, yeah,
I can trust myself, I can trust the knowledge, the
tools I've amassed exactly. Yeah, before we dive into this,
this triumph, you know, this really beautiful book that could
not have come at a better time. We are resetting

(09:39):
so much and this is the perfect time to build
from this knowledge. But so you've released this, You've released
this big old baby, You've released this really important body
of work and also have been on you know this
kind of like whirldwind tour with the book this, you know,

(10:00):
when speaking kind of breaking down some of these big
concepts that you deal with and that can be heavy, right,
like talking about a rature of women, talking about one
how systematic, methodical, how intentional it is that people have
done this to the voices of women, to especially the

(10:21):
voices of black women over centuries. And you're a mama, right,
and you're moving in the world with three children under
five and a half and a beautiful family, you know,
and a husband and a partnership and a beautiful life.
And when we talk about duality first, what is it
to hold those two truths?

Speaker 3 (10:42):
Yeah, all the things, all of those things are true,
and they're all the things that I love the most
and care so deeply about. And it really for me
is taking it a day at a time, living with
such gratitude for all that I get to participate in
my life. That I get to have this career where

(11:04):
I am putting work out there that I think is
helpful to people, that I hope will make a difference
in this world, that I hope will allow more of
us to understand each other and celebrate our differences and
live with less fear that we're targeting towards each other,
and hopefully live with more groundedness so that we're focused

(11:24):
on the things that we actually need to address, like
a system versus fighting each other. And my work and
these two books that I've put out are always intertwined
with my mothering. They're always intertwined with my life because
what I study affects every single part of our existence,

(11:44):
every stage of our lives, especially when we're talking about patriarchy,
and when I'm centering it in the United States and
I'm saying American patriarchy specifically, I'm saying it's something that
affects us even before we are born. And so my
mission and everything that I talked about before is also
always because I'm thinking about my babies and I'm thinking

(12:07):
about the world that I want to create for them
with them, and it's just an additional force within me,
something that always existed, something I always cared deeply about.
But I often describe motherhood as a growth of who
we always were, and I think a lot of times

(12:28):
mothers feel like the person who we were before children
is replaced and sometimes we forget her, and society, in
a lot of ways wants us to feel that way,
wants us to feel like who we are didn't matter.
And I want more mothers to feel like, no, this
is a growth. It's this incredible metamorphosis. Yes, but the

(12:51):
person who you always were is translating into this role.
And all the passions that you have before, the dreams
you had before, are carrying through beautifully into your mothering.
And so for me, I see that very clearly in
this life I get to live and the career I
get to have. When I'm traveling and having conversations and

(13:12):
sometimes I have to be away from my babies, I
also still feel deeply connected to my mothering because that
work is a part of that mothering, and my mothering
is a part of that work. And when I get
to just spend time with my kids and I'm unplugging
and I'm not checking any emails and I'm not on
my phone, that also brings me the inspiration that I need.

(13:32):
I have all these thoughts when I'm just looking at
the world through their eyes, and I think, you know
that's going to go in that next chapter. Something my
five year old says. I think that was deeply wise.
The way you're seeing the world is powerful, and I
think that's just constantly connected and they're building on each other.

(13:52):
So I try to bring those things together as much
as possible. And of course then there's the duality of
how I get sad that I can't be in both
places at the same time. Yeah, physically, I can't be
in both places at the same time. So I'm carrying
that constantly, but with gratitude. I get to do things
that I love to do. And yes, you talked about partnership.

(14:17):
I get to be in a relationship that I love
to be in and co create this world together. So
all of those things, So many different feelings came up
with that question.

Speaker 4 (14:27):
Yeah, and especially in this time right, like my goodness,
just even that I think with you know, some of
the works that so many brilliant voices are putting out,
like it's just it just keeps making me think back
to other really deeply pivotal moments in human history, and
just like you know, we look back at them and

(14:48):
so many of the people have passed, so we don't
know what was pulling and churning and moving or how
it odds the world was. With some of the work
coming out, I think a lot about you know, oh
what was James Baldwin was.

Speaker 3 (15:02):
Just about to say, James Walden as you were talking.

Speaker 4 (15:04):
Yeah, really, yes, you know, what was he conversing about,
how is he feeling about his work as he was
putting it out, And it's juxtaposed against the stage of
all that is, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:16):
Was unfolding in his time.

Speaker 4 (15:17):
And you know, I think we're in a time where
so many things are happening that we thought humanity, this country,
you know, had.

Speaker 2 (15:24):
Moved so far past.

Speaker 3 (15:26):
Yeah, it's so true. And I definitely see myself as
somebody who's fortunate to be a part of this legacy
of writers who use their work in the power of
witnessing what we're facing currently. That when people pick up
our book, whether it's right now or twenty years from
now or fifty years from now, that they will see

(15:47):
what was happening in our time, and we'll see voices
that were offering a different perspective, a different path at
a time like this where so many people are afraid,
and rightfully so, at a time like this where it
feels like in many ways we're regressing as a nation,
and a lot of people feel that they're going to

(16:10):
be punished if they speak up. The voices that are
willing to say, hey, we can always build something different,
we can always challenge things that are wrong. We can
always look to examples throughout history of people who have
taught us that, and I want to be someone who
continues to keep their stories alive while also adding to

(16:33):
the record in this particular time is powerful and I
feel that within me when I'm writing. I feel that
within me when I have an idea that is put
on my heart and I believe in God. I believe
that that's why I get these ideas because I'm supposed
to do something about it. I'm supposed to get something
out into the world. And so when you feel like

(16:53):
there's this connection to something so much larger, and there's
also this relationship that I'm going to have with my descendants,
you know that I will never meet. I feel the
responsibility that I believe these writers who have continued to
inspire Eslang beyond their life on this earth probably also
felt within them that responsibility and that honor.

Speaker 4 (17:19):
I know this is hitting somebody listening right now exactly
where it needed to be for you to put your
work out. I just want to say that there, because
that is incredibly powerful, and especially thinking of it as
being on a record, like really on record for our time, yeah,
you know, and seeing farther down the road to those

(17:40):
descendants like I'm so excited about being an ancestor, and
I'm like, please invoke my name children in the future.

Speaker 3 (17:48):
Beautiful. I think about it all the time because my
doula with my third baby, and you know, my husband
and I have decided this is our last baby. He's
twenty months old now. But when he was born, and
at first, I will say, my midwife not believe me.
I kept saying, this is gonna be my last time,
and they're like, sher, sure, sure. And then while I
was going through my labor, I was crying so many
tears of joy, and they were like, what's going on on.

(18:10):
I like, tell us what you're thinking, and I said, oh,
I'm just so grateful for these three beautiful babies, and
they go, Okay, this has last time written all over it.
But when he was born, and I've done this wrapping
ceremony that my dulas have done for me with three,
with each of my three kids, in the final wrapping
ceremony where they are it's called like tying of the bones,

(18:32):
and you're thanking your body for everything you've done to
bring this baby into the world. My dula this time
said something that she hadn't said the other two times,
which was, we're thanking your body for what it's done
for generations of your family. And I thought, you don't
even think about that, you know, when you're birthing a child,
But wow, for generations of my family. And that's a powerful,

(18:56):
beautiful thing. And so I'm constantly thinking about that now.
Ever since that moment, everything I do is for generations
to come, and we all are doing that.

Speaker 4 (19:10):
M that is so beautiful, so beautiful, deeply wow. So
you know, within this book you describe American patriarchy as
a system that is so deeply ingrained that it has

(19:32):
become almost invisible. What was the moment in your own
life when you can remember that you first really saw.

Speaker 2 (19:39):
It for what it was.

Speaker 3 (19:43):
It's so interesting because it's hard for me to pinpoint
the one moment, and largely because of my mom. I
was raised by a feminist mother who called out patriarchy everywhere,
and she was a lawyer. She advocated for women's rights
in the US as well as abroad, and so we
traveled my siblings and I from country to country that

(20:05):
you listed so beautifully through her work, and so she
would always tell us in each of the places that
we lived, Notice how women are being treated. Notice how
mothers in particular are being treated. Because the way in
which mothers and women are being treated is going to
show us how that nation will do. She really felt

(20:25):
like everything came back to the treatment of mothers in particular,
that if mothers were being supported, if mothers were being seen,
if mothers were being respected, that that community would do well.
There would be more happiness, there would be more health, etc.
And she also believed that if the role was not
being treated with respect, with honor, with support, that we

(20:46):
would also see cycles of inequity perpetuated. And so it's
hard for me to say, oh, that's the moment that
I was like, patriarchy is affecting me because I was
born into this conversation of patriarchy will affect you, and
you will notice it and you will challenge it at
every point. And so in this book, I wanted to

(21:10):
make it as obvious to everybody as it is to me,
because I walk through the world noticing it everywhere. I
see how it's connected to everything we're doing. But then
you have everybody constantly saying how did this happen? How
did we end up here, and I realized one of
the reasons so many people are confused and aren't able

(21:32):
to notice it is by design, the system has hidden
itself so that we start to think that the inequities
that we're facing and that we're experiencing on a day
to day basis are simply in our minds, or especially
for women, we're told you're just feeling that what's going
on with your feelings today? When it's gas lighting. One

(21:55):
of my friends says, it's gaslighting on a national level
in fact. And so one of the reasons I wanted
to write this book is I wanted us to have
a map of what patriarchy is in our nation, how
it shows up at every point of our lives, so
that we stop being surprised by it, so that we

(22:16):
stop thinking that we're imagining something when we're accurately identifying
an issue of inequity in our lives, and so that
we can stop blaming each other for it, because patriarchy,
in my opinion, hasn't been defined fully before now. It mean,
my book does do that, but we've missed a lot

(22:38):
of the core tenets of patriarchy that have made it
a very divisive topic that have made it something that
especially men feel very defensive about if they hear the
word and they don't think about how it's hurting them.
They don't think about how it's a system that was
built by our founding fathers unapologetically so that they said

(23:02):
we are building a republic of men, but that in
this definition of man they were leaving out so many
different people that they were erasing indigenous belief systems. There's
so much that we can get into there, and I
don't know if we're there in the conversation yet, but
to frame what I'm talking about in terms of what

(23:23):
is American patriarchy, I've always seen it because my mom
made it really obvious to me. And so in a way,
I'm carrying forward the lessons she gave me. I'm putting
those in this book. I mean, you do such a
you do just such a potent, potent job of that
in your book. And I think part of what I

(23:44):
really appreciated about it is it's helping people understand how
to think about this, you know, And I think that's
what we lack a lot, especially with big concepts like
this that are absolutely invisible. Yeah, and ancient rights so
incredibly nuanced and complex and layered over time that it's

(24:05):
hard sometimes you get to the meat of understanding how
you can do anything about.

Speaker 4 (24:09):
It, or how to participate with all the things that
are moving around exactly exactly.

Speaker 3 (24:16):
Yeah, And I think it's also because we then we
overcomplicate it sometimes too, because when we can define it
very simply, and this is if we just go to
the founding Fathers and we think of who these men
were and what they were experiencing and what they wanted
in life. So they were these scrappy men, right like

(24:38):
we've all watched Hamilton, We've all seen they were just
kind of, you know, kind of all from these different directions,
just trying to figure out their own paths. But they
win the Revolutionary War. They're the underdogs. So when they
win the Revolutionary War, they're very worried that this revolutionary
spirit is spreading across the country, that there's going to

(24:58):
be these mini revolutions everywhere perhaps, and that maybe they're
going to lose the thing that they had fought to
gain in their nation, which was power control. And so
when they're sitting and thinking of designing a country and
how it's going to operate. They're thinking about what's going
to be best for them, how can they protect what
they want, And they write the depth the Constitution with

(25:22):
that in mind. So it's actually very simple. That part
is pretty simple. And they say, you know what, we're
going to define who gets to be man in the
United States and in the Constitution, although it says liberty
and justice for all, we know that if you were
to ask the founding fathers, do you think an enslaved
person is a man, they would have said no, they

(25:45):
would have said, that's not a human being. I treat
them as property.

Speaker 2 (25:47):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (25:48):
So if they're saying in the Constitution that men can
own land, that men can vote, that men can represent themselves,
that they are the ones who carry stuff, and they
completely leave women out of the Constitution. They're designing a
republic of men. And they say in letters to their

(26:10):
wives and to their daughters, they define women as you
are to be controlled, you are not to participate politically,
you are fragile, and that the only way that you
can do something in this world is to reproduce our power,

(26:32):
the men's power. But they set up strategically then this
binary and in order to set up the binary. They
need to erase anything else that suggests otherwise, and this
is again intentional. They erase indigenous belief systems that recognize
people beyond a gender binary. And not only do they
set up a binary, they then also rely on racism

(26:56):
to further solidify that binary. So, as I mentioned, they
were not considering enslaved men in this definition, they were
not considering poor white men in this definition. They were
not considering immigrant men in these definitions. They were also
when they're talking about women, if we look particularly particularly

(27:17):
at how black women are treated in American history, they're
not saying that black women deserve to be protected. They're
not saying that black women can somehow reproduce power. They're
actually telling black women, no matter how you come to
have a child, that child's always going to carry your status.
In law. It stated in American history that black women,

(27:39):
no matter how they came to have children, when they
were enslaved, those children would also be slaves. So it
goes directly in opposition to how they're defining man and
woman by the Constitution and in their letters and in
their opinions. So if we just understand that they only
recognized two groups of people, in the United States, and

(28:02):
then they told everybody else, you can assimilate and try
your best to assimilate to these two recognized groups, and
then maybe you'll understand what it is to be a
human being in our nation. They tell us all to
fight for our right to be gendered in the United States,
and that is the basis of our nation. And so

(28:24):
if that wasn't hidden, if that wasn't a mistake, but
we've never spoken about it in that way before, and
it takes until twenty twenty five for me to say, hey,
we should probably go back and look at that vision
in that system and how they saw the original social
order that they wanted to protect, and how that plays

(28:46):
a role in the Constitution. It plays a role in
every law that comes out of the Constitution. It plays
a role in the Supreme Court and the setup of
the Supreme Court. It plays a role in every single system,
whether that's the medical system or legal system or whatever
you want to talk the educational system of our nation.
Then of course we are still currently living in it

(29:08):
because it hasn't been addressed, and we just started to
believe because that's what we were told, that it was
the only option available to us. So you then have
people here in twenty twenty five who feel so strongly
about protecting this social order because they think that that's
how they get to be treated as human beings too,

(29:31):
that I just have to do better at performing one
of those two roles, that I have to dominate more
or I have to be more silent if I'm supposed
to play the woman's role. And so we're protecting something
with all our might, we become people who are anti

(29:52):
trans people, and people don't even know why, they don't
even know why they carry such hatred towards people who
show us just by being who they are, that there
was always something else available to us. That the system
that we're living in was manufactured. It was fabricated, it
was built. You can go back and see when it

(30:14):
was built. It was not the natural order, it was
not divine, it never was. It's actually incredibly vulnerable. It's
incredibly fragile because it's so rigid, and the more rigid
something is, the more breakable it is. So when you
can look at it from that perspective, you then just
feel like, oh, it's actually quite simple and we can

(30:39):
do something about it.

Speaker 4 (30:46):
I mean, my God, like, what office are you going
to run for? Like, this is what is missing, right,
because so much to me of the divide in the country,
it's really just in in ways that we understand and
don't understand. YEA, the world and how it works ourselves

(31:07):
and how we work this country and how it works.

Speaker 3 (31:09):
Yeah, why we have certain fears, why we have certain fires,
Like why do I feel so stressed about I mean,
I'm not this person, but there's a lot of people
in our nation who are so concerned about trans people
and they don't even know why. But if they've been
told their whole lives, in order to be human and
to be recognized in your nation, you need to try

(31:30):
to fit one of these two roles, then it makes
a little more sense how there's even parents who could
disown their own children because they're not lining up with
these two supposed roles because they're so fearful that they're
not going to be recognized as human beings. But they
don't even realize that they've been taught this, that they've
been taught this need to protect something that doesn't serve them,

(31:55):
that doesn't protect them, but they feel so deeply within them,
I'm fearful because I've purposely been kept from knowing other
ways of living, other ways of organizing people, other ways
of participating in society together.

Speaker 4 (32:14):
And I think, yeah, that last piece that is the
biggest thing in every category right like it is it
is the unknown, the thing that you just don't have
research about personally or lived experience with, and no desire
to gain or amaciny and so it's just no wrong
you know, war inducing.

Speaker 2 (32:33):
Yeah, you know the.

Speaker 4 (32:34):
Thing that I think is going to be so interesting
because we really are this evolutionarily, this bridge generation right
now as a species, right like the we're in the
grade in between of what the next evolved iteration of
human being is. And I mean as a species, not
as like you know, just what are the trends or

(32:55):
what are we into? But like, and it's fascinating because
our brains are being rewired in so many ways to
whatever we are going to become. And I just think
it's fascinating to think about, you know, in a hundred years,
how will historians look back at this moment because we
have something that no one else has ever had in history,

(33:18):
which is like we have artifacts of the nuance of
what we're thinking. I've always wondered, like, what are these
big populations of people in really hard times? What did
they think about all this? And you might find the
writings of a few kinds of a people, but you
can't fully understand or appreciate, like what was the zeitgeist
of that time? And how often did that refresh itself?

Speaker 2 (33:41):
Or you know?

Speaker 4 (33:42):
And I think now we are truly having more fundamental
dignity conversations than we have ever had in human history
for such a broader group of people. And so how
will we be able to kind of stay and look
back at this later if there's humans left? Who knows

(34:03):
it might be so yeah, who knows, it might be
the machines, you know. But yeah, it's just it's it's
absolutely fascinating because we are in the crevices of every
conversation that we're having right.

Speaker 3 (34:18):
Now, and I find that to be really inspiring. I
think a lot of folks feel, Yes, where we talked
about there's regression, it feels like we're moving backwards. It
feels like there hasn't been any progress. If we've re
elected this president, how could we say that we're progressing?
And in my opinion, it actually shows that vulnerability of

(34:41):
this system yet again, because it shows me that there
is fear of all of the progress that we've made.
And I often speak about how the US is as
a nation like from the founding fathers. Obviously it was
a nation and a land long before these men were here.
But when we think about that foundation, it's a pretty

(35:03):
young country. And babies, it's a baby country. Yeah, And
when so I this is just a funny story. When
I went to do my graduate work at the University
of Cambridge. The very first day, they gave me this
you know, pullover and it says the university was founded
in twelve oh nine, like twelve nine, and I read

(35:24):
it and I thought, I mean, like, I, oh, yeah,
I guess that makes sense. And I just had this
moment where I thought, whoa, this university is so much
older than my entire nation. And then I was walking
and I was in this discussion where people were asking
should we be decolonizing Cambridge? This was a question, should
we decolonize Cambridge? And then I thought, well, that's a

(35:48):
crazy question. Should you You seem a little behind on
these conversations of race and equity, But this is a
question that in the US it wouldn't be should we
It would be like, what are we supposed to like,
let's do this right now. And that's when I realized
that this is the story of the United States. We
are very young as a nation, but we have experienced
incredibly rapid change. Not rapid enough. There's a lot more

(36:10):
for us to do. But the reason that there has
been progress that inspires communities across the world has been
because of the groups of people in the United States
who were not originally recognized as human beings in that
social order I was talking about, who have said, this
doesn't work for us, this doesn't make any sense, particularly

(36:33):
black women who by law again were told they were
not human, their children were not human beings. And instead
of them saying, oh, it's the law, I guess I
just have to believe the law it was that's obviously
made up. That's not going to work for me. I
know I'm a human being. My children are the most
precious human beings. So what I need to do is

(36:55):
fight for this nation to change, for these laws to change.
I need to make up something new. And that is
how we have moved forward. That's how we have progressed.
And so of course there's fear from those who want
to protect the original social order. There's been incredible strategy

(37:16):
on their end to try to get us back, because
that's a response to progress, that's a response to change.
And so this can't be the time where we say
we've never been here before. This is the scariest we've
ever seen. This, doesn't you know, what are we going
to do? This is the time to study those who

(37:39):
have been through this, who told us, you cannot fall
for this, you cannot accept this. You must continue to
create something new and keep that fight going now with
new tools that are available to us. And so I
see it as we got to double down on this knowledge,
on this wisdom. And the final thing I'll say about

(38:02):
that is the gift that I was given. There are
so many gifts I was given in writing the Three
Mothers and in doing the research to put together these stories.
Again of these incredible women is that they lived through
the nineteen hundreds, they saw two world wars, they saw
the Great Depression, They birth their children in the nineteen twenties,

(38:25):
They teach their children how to create the civil rights movement.
I can't sit here and say that this is the
worst that it's ever been that's a disrespect to the
work that they did.

Speaker 2 (38:38):
That is so.

Speaker 3 (38:39):
But I can say, from learning from their lives, I
know what I must do. I won't sit here and
say we're just gonna sit down silently. No, we're going
to do our part, and we all have maybe different
parts to play, but we're on this larger team who
is not going to pretend that we've lost all.

Speaker 4 (39:00):
Hope deeply well. One of the driving forces behind Erased
is your desire to reclaim what has been hidden or contorted.

Speaker 2 (39:15):
What is one.

Speaker 4 (39:16):
Story or figure that deeply moved you while you were
researching for this book, maybe someone you believe deserves to
be more widely known.

Speaker 3 (39:26):
This book is filled with so many of these stories
that it's sometimes hard for me to choose the one,
but because I want to show throughout the book that
no matter how hard these circumstances have been throughout American history,
no matter how hard American patriarchy has worked at hiding itself,

(39:47):
at erasing the stories that show us that there's always
something else that show us that again it's all made up,
and that we can always choose to lift differently. That
these individuals saw beyond always the one that I'm thinking
of right now is Ellen Craft and her husband William Craft.

(40:09):
The way in which they are this couple. They're living
in times of slavery, and they are going to fight
for their freedom. They are going to find a way
to live freely because one of their driving motivations is
that they want to start a family without the fear
of being divided from each other, without the fear that

(40:30):
their children will just be removed from them. And so
Ellen has lighter skin, and they decide, okay, if Ellen
can cut off her hair, put on a pair of
pants and a jacket, she can pass not only as
a white person, but as a white man.

Speaker 2 (40:51):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (40:51):
And so she and her husband board a train and
they feign an injury for her because she would typically
have to sign documents in order to travel outside of
her state with her person who is looking like her slave,
who is actually her husband, But because they don't know

(41:13):
how to read or write, she has to pretend she's
injured and she has an arm injury, and that they're
traveling north for her treatments. And so I think her
story is powerful for so many reasons. One, there's incredible
courage that it takes for the two of them to say,
let's do this, let's try this path, and because it
makes it so obvious how arbitrary categories of race and

(41:39):
gender are, how performative they are, how it's so unsophisticated
to organize people in this way. Because it was a
masterful performance that she gave. And it's because she was
so well studied in the oppressor, in what it would

(42:04):
take to sound like them, to move like them, to
convince everyone else around her, because for her own survival,
she had been a student of this her whole life,
and she transfers that skill, this study that she's been
forced to undertake. Right to know what they need, to

(42:26):
know how they move, to know what they eat, to
know how they talk. She takes that and uses it
as her path and her skill to achieve freedom for herself,
for her husband. They go on to have a big family,
she has to raise her children, and so it just
symbolizes so many different things that, yeah, more of us

(42:49):
should know Ellen Craft's name, Ellen and William Kraft, excuse me,
Ellen and William Craft's names, and we should be so
aware of what their story symbolizes about. Again, the fragility
of what American patriarchy is telling us is the only
way to define humanity. It's fragile. There's so many missing

(43:15):
pieces to that story. It doesn't actually fully make any sense.
And that's why those who protect it have tried so
hard to, for instance, ban books that show us a
different history and a different record that humanizes other people
outside of this original social order. That just signals to

(43:37):
us again, we can choose to do this differently. So
I love that story so much.

Speaker 4 (43:44):
Yeah, the storytelling is just too good, thank you. Yeah,
you know, and speaking of because it is the way
you blend your worlds together, I think is just really
powerful and beautiful. What do you think is so important
about especially storytelling in this time, for our healing, you know,
for our growth as a people, as a country, as

(44:08):
a species.

Speaker 3 (44:09):
Yeah, storytelling is everything. One of the lessons that I've
carried throughout my entire life, especially because I lived in
so many different places, is that stories rule everything, That
whole nations are existing simply off of stories that they tell,
and that the dominant stories often erase a lot of people.

(44:33):
And you, as a storyteller, all of us have the
capacity to be storytellers. We have to challenge those dominant
stories we have to correct records. We have to see
that power within ourselves to say, actually, let's think about
this differently. Actually, let me recover the story of somebody

(44:57):
whose life stands in opposition to what you're telling me.
Is the only truth about the world. For me to
write about the mothers of MLK Jor Malcolm X James Baldwin,
I'm saying the self made man does not exist. I'm
saying not only did these women live and were they

(45:20):
human beings, but that their sons were human beings also.
And we don't understand these sons, and we can't even
fully revere them unless we know that they were following
in the footsteps of their mothers. And so when you
hear that, and you feel the shift in your brain
to know, wait, m l K. Junior's mother participated in

(45:42):
marches and in boycotts, and her parents were the leaders
of ebenez Or Baptist Church, and in fact, everything he
inherited was from his maternal lineage, and I didn't know that.
You then shift your mind immediately just with that small
part of the story. And that's what storytellers have the

(46:04):
power to do. We have the power to also bring
people together and I don't think that all of us
have to have that mission actually, to be honest, as
much as I'm somebody who's a bridge builder and I
want as many people as possible to come to my
work and feel like they can talk about things that
maybe they previously felt excluded from. I also really value

(46:27):
and I'm very grateful for the voices that say f
that I'm not here to educate all of you. I'm
here to disrupt, I'm here to wake people up. I'm
here to tell you. I don't have to teach you
these things. Do your own work, do your own study,
because I think several different energies are needed for change

(46:47):
to be made. And so while I'm somebody who really
feels one of the roles I'm supposed to play is
to talk to a lot of different people, and a
lot of folks say this that you know, it's not
that I'm not saying or challenging white supremacy. It's not
that I'm not calling out these horrific systems. But sometimes

(47:08):
I say it in a way that suddenly someone thinks, oh,
you're not targeting me. I can hear you, I can
somehow listen to something you're saying that just feels like
a role I'm supposed to play.

Speaker 4 (47:24):
I want to dive into another thing that you talk
about in the book that I think is just it's
really important.

Speaker 2 (47:33):
To be said aloud.

Speaker 4 (47:35):
So in a race, do you powerfully write about how
white women have often been included in patriarchal systems at
the expense of women of color. How do you think
we can have more honest conversations about solidarity and complicity
within our feminist movements.

Speaker 3 (47:57):
I think if we go back to this social order
that our founding fathers were setting up, and how they
in that are recognizing the white women around them. Right,
they ignore them in the constitution. They don't write them
into the constitution, but they do say something about you
deserve to be protected. Right. It's also another way of

(48:18):
them saying you deserve to be controlled, but they say,
you know, you reproduce our power.

Speaker 2 (48:25):
Right.

Speaker 3 (48:25):
So there are some of these white women who at
least feel seen in that, at least feel protect in that,
and who have an awareness that not everybody and not
all women are at least being given that, you know,
mine or access, and so sometimes they then have a
hard time seeing how the system also isn't serving them,

(48:49):
but they want to protect it, right, they want to
play some role in it. And so there's a lot
of scholars who have often spoken about white women as
the co arc texts of this system, even though you
can see in the way that they're ignored in the
Constitution and the way their husbands speak about them, even

(49:09):
in letters that they write to them. I talk about
a letter that Abigail Adams receives from her husband where
she's saying, do better by us than the monarchy did.
And it's this famous quote where she says, remember the ladies,
and he says, and he mocks her. He says, I
know better than to follow your feminine ways, and he

(49:32):
thinks it's kind of funny. And they actually double down
even more on patriarchy than the monarchy did. And so
there's something that a lot of white women today don't
fully realize that, whether it's subconsciously, they're protecting something because

(49:53):
they at least have some role to play there. And
so in order for us to move forward, So in
order for us to move forward, we have to one
be able to say, I, if I'm a white woman,
am experiencing oppression in this patriarchal system? Right, they don't

(50:13):
have a hard time saying this. A lot of them
do realize, like this isn't serving me, I don't want
to be in this domestic role or whatever. But then
they have a hard time saying, but I have still
been given something in this that women of color were
excluded from. So all of those layers have to exist.
We need like one group of white women who make
maybe feel like they want to protect patriarchy because they

(50:37):
think there's something in it. Of childwives would be a
perfect example, right, they're like this works for me. I
like this.

Speaker 2 (50:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (50:45):
We need them to sort of realize like, actually, it's
not really working for you to put all of us
in this domestic space. Like you might want to have
that for yourself, and that is fine, But to then
tell young women this is what you need to aspire to,
that's dangerous. Now we've gotten into a point of you're

(51:05):
just trying to replicate something across the nation that isn't
working for any of us. So that's one group of women.
Then there's a group of white women who are like,
I'm being oppressed. Why are these women of color upset
with me? I'm also being oppressed. I know what it's
like to be oppressed. Yes, you have also been given
a different lot than the men in your life. However,

(51:28):
you still have been given access to something that women
of color have not. So if we can just simply
say we have all been treated differently by these systems,
but that we actually do need to come together without
erasing each other's differences in order to address that system,
then that's the shift that we need. And the last
thing I'll say there is that my mom was a

(51:49):
white woman and she was raising black children with her
black husband, and I always talk about her is the
perfect example of an ally because I didn't even appreciate
it that much growing up, how intentional she was about
telling me and then showing me and her actions that

(52:10):
she wasn't going to tell me that she knew what
it was to be a black girl. That would have
been wild if my white mom had been like, I
know what it's like. I am a feminist, and I
know what it's like to be a black girl in
the United States or around the world. Even instead, she said,
I don't know what that's like, but I will walk
beside you always, and I will do my part to learn,

(52:34):
and I will do my part to make this world
worthy of you. That's allyship, that's what we're looking for.
That's the energy that we need. We're not going to
tell each other. We know what it's like to be
in each other's shoes, but we will walk together. We
will do our part to learn, and we will do
our part to make this world worthy of us and

(52:55):
worthy of our children.

Speaker 4 (53:00):
That is that's so powerful to hear, and what a
special way to be raised, you know, in so many ways,
like just having the exposure and the lens and being
able to bear witness, you know, in so many different
ways for so many different women. I loved the example
you brought up of tradwives. I have so many thoughts

(53:20):
on that. Yeah, and even that is so interesting because
I think so many of the premiere trad wives there
is not like it looks great.

Speaker 2 (53:31):
I want to make sourdough.

Speaker 4 (53:32):
Too, Like I mean, like I have nothing against that
at all as a life choice or a lifestyle, not
at all. However, the way that it's packaged for us,
it's you know, we're missing also the propaganda in that,
and so many of the women that are the top
you know, tradwive influencers, like you know, they have very

(53:53):
very rich husbands. Yeah, you know, so it's kind of like, yeah,
it's your dream for the simpler days because like you
also don't have to live on the land to survive
it all or you know, exactly, Yeah, so many other
needs met in different ways.

Speaker 3 (54:08):
Exactly exactly. And it's interesting because on one hand, they
are bringing attention to how difficult this economy is for
so many families. Right there are a lot of people
who would like to have one partner in a relationship
work while the other can yet totally, but we don't

(54:30):
have access to that, right. That's not really an opportunity
that's available to most families. We all have to work
right now, and that's also really difficult, that is, you know.
I think that's kind of an interesting thing. They're not
highlighting it on purpose, but it's something that comes up
for me when I see them. And then I was
recently in a conversation with my good friend Liz Plank,

(54:51):
and she was talking about how and it's obvious now,
but I just wasn't even really thinking about it. Childwives
are making those influencers are making so much money, like
they're working right while telling you, I don't want to work,
but they most likely there was some article that came
out recently. They're most likely surrounded by a bunch of
people who are filming them and working for them, and

(55:13):
it's this whole enterprise where they're then tricking everybody around
them by saying, oh, you know, look at this life
that I get to live, and then saying things like
what propaganda tells you that I can't be here like
holding my baby, like making my food, which most likely
is like that's their day on their job, that's what
they're doing.

Speaker 4 (55:33):
Yeah, that's such a good point and also too, you know,
we're not talking enough about how much pain and injury
women have taken on over the years, how many manifestations
of autoimmune disease or other chronic disorders within the body
from having to overwork in that capacity day in and

(55:55):
day out for the ones that really do it in
a survival mode and not kind of in the most esthetic,
radiose way. But how many generations of women in our
households suffered deeply, bones, hurt horribly throughout the day, had
all this you know, pain mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually that

(56:18):
they couldn't speak to but it was felt right it
was felt by them, and it was felt psychologically and
emotionally by the children that they raise.

Speaker 3 (56:27):
I agree with that, and this is it brings us
then to there again child wives not they're not meaning to,
but there is some important conversation that they're kind of
shedding some light on. Is there are a lot of
other nations where when a child is born, we do
give families time to be together at home, and we
honor that, and we give them time before they go

(56:51):
back to work. We protect that leave because families should
bond with each other. Yeah, and so sometimes when we're
in all these discussions that feel very black and white
and oh, these childwise you just want to spend you know,
like what are they trying to you know, they're trying
to set us back and all of this, I mean,
I think, you know, instead we could say there's a

(57:13):
spectrum of needs, and in fact, there actually should be
space where women can and parents can not just women
be with their babies and have a period of time
that you know, if I'm thinking like a country like Sweden,
you have parents who can take leave for one maybe

(57:33):
two years. That's wonderful, that's beautiful. Oh that's great. And
then maybe you know. And I'm not saying that parental
leave is rest because like the only lead that it's
not even guaranteed in the US. But for some of
us who had like six months paid leave, and we
all think, wow, you care have a friend who had
six months, Wow, it's amazing. Those six months are work

(57:57):
work work, Hey, you're adjusting, Yes it's bonding, Yes it's magical,
but you are recovering. Like that is not where you
can enter into the zone of now, let's learn to
like make bread. No, but if it's two years, perhaps
you can have that time. So I think there's something
that we can kind of use the traad wives for
and say we do want that time.

Speaker 4 (58:20):
I do want it. I mean honestly, like I do
want to bake.

Speaker 2 (58:23):
I want to do that.

Speaker 4 (58:26):
I have this space to, yeah, you know, really deeply
care for your family and be present for them in
that beautiful way. But as you share it, it's it's
a spectrum. And I think that was just such a
brilliant framing this spectrum of needs that we really all have.
And it's so different, you know for each of our households.

(58:47):
What do you have hope about right now?

Speaker 3 (58:50):
Oh, I'm so hopeful. I'm a really optimistic person. Honestly,
A lot of people ask, because I dive deep into
these hard topics, how do I still seem so positive,
light and happy? And I think it's precisely because I
study these topics that I see them very clearly. Yeah,
you know, I'm always studying other black femen as scholars

(59:12):
and this tradition that I feel so honored to be
a part of. But you know, Audrey Lord and Tony
Morrison and Belle Hooks, and when you read their writing,
there's just such clarity. There's such like I'm unafraid and
maybe some I mean Audrey Lord does talk about how
fear can be translated into action, so it's taking that

(59:33):
fear and doing something with it. But the words are
just poetically. You know, these are the things that I
aspire to. And I say all of that because I
think it's the way they were able to vocalize these
things and write these things with such clarity is because
they studied these things so deeply that they sought without

(59:55):
all of the mirage, without all of the things that
are meant to keep us confused. When you see it
in this crystal clear way, you then realize you can
change it, you can do something about it. We can
create the new, we can inspire other people to do
the same. So that makes me really hopeful. I am

(01:00:16):
always offering the alternative, what else can we do? Because
when you're studying the problem, you inevitably study what the
problem is trying to control. And so this book, yes,
I'm talking about what's been erased, and then I'm telling
you how we get those things back. And every part

(01:00:39):
of the book, there's six parts of the book are
titled with the things we need to recover. We need
to recover our intuition. Yeah, we need to recover our courage.
We need to recover our interconnectedness to each other. American
patriarchy does not want us to believe that we're connected

(01:00:59):
to each other. In said, it wants us to believe
that we're on individual journeys and that the more people
I dominate, the more successful I am in life, and
that's my life calling. That doesn't make sense. But if
we remember everything I do will impact other people. Yeah,
so I'm gonna live a little differently. And so it's

(01:01:22):
those kinds of words that are that are the heart
of this book. And when you embrace those things. Your
whole life is different. I don't live with like the
heaviness of American patriarchy. I actually live knowing it's incredibly
light and we can all just lift it up and
say we're not we're gonna throw this away, We're not

(01:01:44):
gonna work with this anymore. Let's work with something new.

Speaker 2 (01:01:48):
I love that so much.

Speaker 4 (01:01:49):
I'm a fellow kind of relentless optimist, Yeah, but also
clear observer. I know I'm bearing witness to a lot
and there still is space, yeah to know. Yeah, there's
hope and things to come and hope in the moment.

Speaker 3 (01:02:08):
Yeah, I mean it makes me think too of So,
my mom passed away about two and a half years ago,
and I'm sorry, thank you. The grief experience it takes
you to kind of a new level of humanity, to
be honest, where you're seeing your whole life very differently
because you're realizing, you know, you're asking, what do I

(01:02:28):
believe actually happens when people pass? Right? And we might
all have those conversations until you lose somebody so so
close to you. At least for me, I wasn't really
thinking about that question and how that question is the
most important question we could really ask, because it dictates
how we live on a day to day basis and

(01:02:49):
what it is we're here to even do, And how
am I supposed to spend each of my days? What
feelings am I supposed to be filled with, no matter
what challenges come in this life? And it's I don't
believe we're supposed to spend every day stressed, fearful, heavy.
I believe we're supposed to spend as many days as possible,

(01:03:12):
almost in this childlike state. And again, I have the
blessing of having three young babies, so I can just
be in their little world, you know, for as long
as I want to. We're supposed to be imaginative. We're
supposed to be creative, We're supposed to be, you know,
brave the way kids are where they're kind of just
sometimes just throwing themselves around, and I think if we

(01:03:35):
can kind of you know, there's a lot of cultures
that believe this, but that children come into the world
with that wisdom and that as they grow we're kind
of forgetting the things that we were supposed to remember.
But if you look at them and you study them
that way, and you think, like, tell me tell me
how I'm supposed to do this. It's it's peaceful. It's
really peaceful. So I think there's a way to balance

(01:03:57):
the awareness that comes with growing up and learning and
not being ignorant to the issues that are happening. I'm
definitely not saying that still be on the journey of
learning and seeing what's happening around you, but how can
you also still approach it with joy, creativity and the
levity that I think our human experience is about. That

(01:04:18):
also comes with the heaviness, like the grief that I
talked about. So it's all part of it.

Speaker 4 (01:04:22):
It's all that dance, sacred dance between the grief and
the joy. Last question for you was past I wish
I could talk to you all day.

Speaker 2 (01:04:33):
I don't even know how far over we are.

Speaker 4 (01:04:34):
Yeah, oh yeah, WHOA. But you know, I think for
those that are listening to this show and really connecting,
walking across those bridges, understanding kind of the bigger arcs
that are happening right now, beginning to wake up to

(01:04:55):
these systems, especially those who may have benefited from them.
What is the most loving but urgent first step you
would invite everyone to take.

Speaker 3 (01:05:07):
And I don't even mean for it to sound cliche,
but I really do feel if people are willing to
disarm themselves for a second, to put down any beliefs
you think you have about patriarchy and whether I'm saying
that you've somehow benefited from it and I haven't, and
all this, and staid say, hey, honest saying none of
us have been fitted from this. So let me see

(01:05:29):
what she's talking about. I'm going to pick up this book.
I'm going to go on this journey and read it
with a mindset of this isn't serving me either, because
I guarantee you there will be a part in the book,
if not the whole thing where you see yourself. You
see how you've been thinking about yourself with American patriarchy,

(01:05:52):
that it's impacting even the way you see yourself on
a day to day basis. It's impacting the way you
see your relationships with not only your friends, but your
romantic partners, especially the way you see your relationship with
your children. It's impacting the way you see your place
in your neighborhood and your community, and it's impacting the

(01:06:15):
way that you vote. Currently, if you can go on
this journey, with me. If that's the one step you
take and you're just willing to learn about this differently
and see how it's playing a role in all these
stages of your life, I guarantee you will find some healing. Hmm.

Speaker 4 (01:06:35):
I'd love to share with everyone listening and let that
serve as your soul work for the end of this episode.

Speaker 2 (01:06:41):
So as you really.

Speaker 4 (01:06:42):
Kind of integrate everything that you've heard, think about it,
sharing this episode with friends and families and hopefully the
women and men.

Speaker 2 (01:06:49):
In your life.

Speaker 4 (01:06:50):
Let's really spread this conversation and consider some of those
points ONNAS shared as you're journaling. Prompt you know, go
back to this part of the episode, grab your journal,
sit down, and really focus on seeing how and if
and the way you answer each of those questions for
yourself and your life. I think that is a profound

(01:07:12):
and powerful first step on this book. Erased is so important.
Thanks so important, and I'm just I'm so glad for
your wisdom and your brilliance and your storytelling and bringing
something so important and special and timely to the planet

(01:07:36):
right now.

Speaker 2 (01:07:36):
Thank you so much for your work.

Speaker 3 (01:07:38):
Thank you, Debbie, thank you so much for having me.
This is one of my favorite interviews by far, great
amazing questions. I'm so excited to watch it.

Speaker 4 (01:07:48):
And then how can everyone connect with you and continue
to be a part of your journey?

Speaker 3 (01:07:51):
Thank you. It's just my name on everything, so on
a Malika tubs dot com you can reach out to
me there or on Instagram. I love connecting people and
just yeah, hearing your thoughts on everything we talked about,
but also just what you're going through. I think that
there's this awakening that can happen when you start to

(01:08:12):
realize how you're being impacted by these things. So yeah,
feel free to reach out and we'd love to connect
some more.

Speaker 4 (01:08:18):
Oh I love that and everyone, if especially if you're
listening on Apple, just scroll down into the show notes.

Speaker 2 (01:08:23):
We'll make it easy for you. Click the link and you'll.

Speaker 4 (01:08:26):
Be directed straight to her website and also straight to
be able to purchase the book. And you know, before
we get out of here, I really something that I
personally find really valuable about this book, especially, I think
something we explore quite a lot on the show is
our personal journeys and our wellbeing and in trauma and
and self awareness and also in the way that we

(01:08:49):
are relating as men and women in this time right now,
because that's an area that is having such an evolution totally.
This book is a really powerful way to even understand
how to have those conversations. We have been at odds
for a long time, and like you highlighted earlier in
the episode, you know, sometimes you hear some of this

(01:09:10):
and you want to just shut down immediately when you
hear the word patriarchy, especially if you know maybe there
are males in your life that feel that they're not
quote unquote benefiting from the patriarchy that is the majority
in society right now. I think that this book really
gives us stories terms, depth of understanding so that we

(01:09:32):
can speak, each of us together from a disarmed but
informed in creative space, because this conversation has to evolve.
It is time and the way consciousness has been shifting
on our planet, especially in the last five years, we
can really do this. We can really do this now.

(01:09:54):
We can really bring forward change and thought patterns, beliefs,
behavior within our family systems, within our communities now, more
than we have ever been able.

Speaker 2 (01:10:05):
To or how to write to.

Speaker 3 (01:10:07):
Absolutely absolutely, thank you.

Speaker 4 (01:10:09):
Thank you so much for joining us, thank you for
having me, and now must stay.

Speaker 2 (01:10:14):
We'll be back next week.

Speaker 4 (01:10:22):
The content presented on Deeply Wells serves solely for educational
and informational purposes. It should not be considered a replacement
for personalized medical or mental health guidance, and does not
constitute a provider patient relationship. As always, it is advisable
to consult with your healthcare provider or health team for

(01:10:42):
any specific concerns or questions that you may have. Connect
with me on social at Debbie Brown. That's Twitter and Instagram,
or you can go to my website Debbie Brown dot com.

Speaker 2 (01:10:54):
And if you're listening to the.

Speaker 4 (01:10:55):
Show on Apple Podcasts, don't forget. Please rate, review, and
subscribe and send this episode to a friend. Deeply Well
is a production of iHeartRadio and The Black Effect Network.
It's produced by Jacquess Thomas, Samantha Timmins, and me Debbie Brown.
The Beautiful Soundbath You Heard That's by Jarrelyn Glass from

(01:11:16):
Crystal Cadence. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio
app or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.