February 20, 2025 • 58 mins
Today, Devi engages in a profound conversation with Dr. Thema Bryant, a renowned psychologist, ordained minister, and professor of psychology at Pepperdine University. They explore the interconnectedness of trauma, faith, and healing, emphasizing the importance of holistic approaches to mental health. Dr. Bryant shares her insights on how relationships shape our emotional well-being, the cultural differences in processing trauma, and the power of truth in healing. The discussion highlights the need for self-acceptance and the reclamation of one's identity beyond trauma, ultimately encouraging listeners to acknowledge their growth and potential. Relationships can nourish us or destroy us. Understanding the pitfalls of pursuing love and why we seek certain relationships creates patterns, if we are willing to examine these patterns it can help us to face our truth.
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Learn More and Order Dr. Thema's New Book, "Matters of the Heart"
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:27):
Take a deep breath in through your nose.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Holds it.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Now, release slowly again deep in, helle hold release, repeating
(01:02):
internally to yourself as you connect to my voice. I
am deeply well. I am deeply well. I am deeply wow.
(01:30):
I'm Debbie Brown and this is the Deeply Well Podcast.
Welcome to Deeply Well, a soft place to land on
your journey. A podcast for those that are curious, creative,
and ready to expand in higher consciousness and self care.
(01:54):
This is where we heal, this is where we transcend.
Welcome back to Deeply Well. This podcast we are deeply
exploring pathways to inner peace, connection and healing. And I
am so excited. As always, I'm your host, Debbie Brown,
and today I am just absolutely honored to be joined
(02:18):
by a true force in the world of psychology, healing
and spiritual restoration. Today's guest is the renowned doctor Tama Bryant,
a New York Times best selling author, clinical psychologist, teacher
and minister. Doctor Tama Bryant, a New York Times best
selling author, clinical psychologist, teacher, and minister. Doctor Tama made
(02:43):
history in twenty twenty three as the youngest female president
of the American Psychological Association. She has now just released
her newest book, Matters of the Heart, Healing your relationship
with yourself and those you love, through Penguin Random House.
Matters of the Heart combines the wisdom of science, spirituality,
(03:05):
and real life experiences to help readers tend to their
emotional wellbeing and build meaningful connections. Doctor Tama provides evidence
based practices, essential relationship skills, and strategies to address common
relational struggles. She is on a mission to help individuals
reclaim their sense of self and well being in the
(03:26):
face of trauma and oppressive systems. She completed her doctorate
in clinical psychology at Duke University, followed by postdoctoral training
at Harvard Medical Center's Victims of Violence Program. Now a
tenured professor at Pepperdine University, she focuses her research and
clinical practice on interpersonal trauma and the societal impact of oppression.
(03:50):
Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here,
doctor Tama.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Thank you so much for having me. I am so
excited to be in this soft place to land with you.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Begin Yeah, oh my gosh. I mean, first and foremost,
I just want to reflect deep gratitude to you for
the work that you do. The way your work has
moved in the world, I think really came so far
ahead of what we are now maybe beginning to think
is commonplace casual understanding of how our pathts affect us,
(04:27):
and how childhood especially affect us, and how trauma affects us.
And I think for so many people, mental health and
faith has been such a disjointed body. Right, there's this
idea that trauma belongs over here. Faith and church and
God and ministry belong here, family belongs here, personal responsibility
(04:49):
belongs here, and everything. You know, there were all of
these pieces I think that people were really screaming for
help in and it. It isn't until recently that it's
really understood how holistic it all is, and how it
really is a true blend of everything all at once
and we have to approach it that way. But that
(05:11):
has been your call and your work. How did you
begin to really in all the processes, see those connections
and put all of those puzzle pieces together.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Yeah, thank you for that. I would say it is
at the roots afrocentric. So in afrocentric psychology, afrocentric philosophy,
there is not a false dichotomy it's not like are
you spiritual or secular? Are you creative or intellectual? It's
(05:44):
all one. And so I grew up with that as
a foundation that it wasn't like are you going to
be focused in school or are you going to pray?
Like that question would never be asked. It was to
be the fullness of who you are. And so and
at the roots, psychology used to incorporate more at spirituality.
(06:06):
Psychology actually means study of the soul, and so the
founders of the field were often people of faith. But
then there was a detour as we try to prove
ourselves to be scientific. So in order to be worthy
of being a science, we had to discard all the
things we could not easily prove. And so there has
(06:27):
been a reclamation of return to not only reclaiming spirituality,
but also reclaiming the body. Yeah, I mean the body
so important.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
And it's so interesting the way just to be alive
right now, I think that's a loaded statement because it
is interesting for many reasons, but especially I think in
it does feel like a time where we do if
you're awake and aware for it, get to come home
to yourself, yes, and understand that the human experience is
(07:04):
all of those facets. You know, whenever we've spoken to mind, body,
and soul. I think for so many years, it's still
not understood that is actually what your human experience is.
You are having the experience of your mind, of your body,
of your soul, and our work is to integrate.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
That's right, because when we are seen and valued only
for our labor, then these systems benefit from the disconnection. Right,
I'm not a living soul if I am just your laborer. Right,
my heart doesn't matter, my body doesn't matter. And so
to resist that notion that the ways in which I
(07:46):
build up other institutions and systems is my worth and value,
which is often for women and people of color, that
has often been the narrative. And so to reject all
of that and say, when I'm just sitting here on
the couch, the two of us sitting here on the
couch are worthy. Yeah, we're our real sip and tea
(08:08):
and worthy. Yes, yes, yeah, that's the healing and the realization.
To come home to myself is to tell myself the truth,
and the truth is I am more than what I
do for others. I am a living soul.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
That line you set it just hit me in such
a special place. You're telling the truth. Yeah, you're telling
the truth. I remember a huge, a huge moment in
my walk with God and the building of my faith
was I was in so many dark places at once,
(08:48):
and I remember, and I've always been very wellness focused
and very holistic and very much and endure someone with
quite a bit of resilience. But I remember this phrase
came in. I just kept saying, like, God, what like
what I've surrendered?
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Like what is?
Speaker 1 (09:07):
And what else do I need to know? And the
exact wordage that came through was I accept the truth
of my life. And it's like that it doesn't have
to have a definition. And I think when people think
of understanding their truth or who and what they are,
they think it also has to be quantified or they
(09:29):
have to know what that is, or it has to
even be words that fill that space. And it's like
that peace like right when you said it, It's like
truth is so much and it's not just the language
we have access to.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
M One of my dear friends, Asia a Devo, is
a poet and she has a poem that says, who
lied right? Who lied to you? That told you a
false sense of yourself. And we have experience and people
that presented us with lies from very early and so
(10:06):
it is the discarding and shedding of those lies so
that I can know my worthiness.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Yeah, before we get into the book, I would just
love to ask a question to understand what makes such
a unique being such as yourself. So your work it's
deeply rooted in healing, in psychology and spirituality. What were
some of the moments in your life that really, as
(10:37):
you were in these different kind of facets of yourself,
really understood your call and understood to blend them.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Yeah, yeah, I think one it's what in some settings
can be seen as a weakness is actually your strength.
And so growing up I would be what was called
a sensitive child and right here we are, Here we are. Yeah,
(11:05):
it's like you know, I remember reading the story of
the Ugly Ducklan and I cried, Okay, so you feel
things so deeply and in certain settings like that's a problem.
But when you discover what you're here for, it's like, yes,
you needed to. You had to be made that way
(11:28):
right so that you could feel and be tender and
notice things people don't notice right and pay attention. So
I would say that sensitivity, just like at my heart
and nature has been really important in my shaping. And
then because my dad was a pastor, he would do
(11:49):
what they would call pastoral counseling, so instead of people
calling a therapist or a life coach, they would usually
speak to their minister. And so I say in my
prior book, Homecome, my first time working a crisis hotline
was as a kid because people would call the house
and they didn't care who answered the phone. They were
just you answer. They're crying and I'm like hello, So
(12:14):
that kind of nourishing, right. And my mother at some
when I was like in middle school, she went into
ministry as well, but focused on women's ministry, so you know,
for me later to become the president of the Society
for the Psychology of Women, as you know, I grew
up seeing her do the work right, so having that compassion.
(12:38):
And then I primarily grew up in Baltimore, which, while
it's beautiful culturally, also has a lot of community violence.
I had the wonderful experience of in high school moving
to Liberia, West Africa with my family, and the first
year and a half was amazing because I was celebrated, right,
(13:00):
and because everyone in the position of authority look like me,
So it really expands your idea of what you can be. Unfortunately,
the second year, toward the end of the second year,
there was a civil war. So you know, me dedicating
my life to trauma recovery, you know, is what I
have seen and to know that it's possible, that it's
(13:22):
devastating and it doesn't have to be the end of
our story. Wow.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
In those two places, I'm so curious, were there any
differences in the ways that you saw people process trauma
and pain.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
What I noticed in the community in Baltimore was more
suppression and that the rule is to keep it moving.
So there's a lot of you know, performing well.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Right.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
So when people say how are you, I'm good, good, right.
Or in the church community, I'm blessed, I'm better than
I do it, blessed and highly favor So we you know,
affirm ourselves even when we're struggling on the inside. So
there is not a lot of permission or space to
(14:17):
be broken hearted. Yeah, and that it is more acceptable
to be harsh than to be shattered. And so you know,
it's a lot of warriors.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Oh wait, a minute, let's sit there, because that landed,
that landed in somebody. And we on this show we
explore trauma a lot and self healing alive. And that's
the piece, right that I think is really confusing. And
I can only speak to the experiences that I have
(14:50):
really studied this in. But within black families, Yes, the
harshness that can come from your family, from your parents,
this idea of you know, well, the world ain't easy.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
So got to prepare you. So that's the idea is
that I'm toughening you up so the world doesn't devour you.
So it comes for some people from a place of love,
from good intention, but can destroy people's spirits if you're
a more soft person or amplify and celebrate the hardness,
(15:25):
and then there is not room for our humanity, right
because I got to be a warrior at eight, right,
And so there is, yeah, a pressure in order to
survive is like don't be soft.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Yeah, And one of the things that you just said,
where you know it's like this harshness. You know, I
think the people with the harshness, and we too on
the receiving end, believe it comes from love, but it
comes from a lack of practice of love. You know,
it comes from people that haven't even had the chants
to practice love for themselves, so they don't understand how
(16:04):
to live it as a verb. And yeah, wow.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
And I want to acknowledge historically there wasn't space for that.
It's like there wasn't space. What people say, like I
would be depressed, but I don't have time right there,
So it is to take up space that had been
generationally denied. Right, So people don't know how to lead
(16:30):
you to what they could never do. And so then
we are carrying people call it ancestral wounds or intergenerational wounds.
But the gift is that we can shift it right
and by our example show that there's another way. So
while we honor, what I like to say is, you know,
(16:53):
the ways you survived are not always the ways you
want to live. So it's like, that's how you made
it out of there. My mom was one of ten
in the projects of New York, so she had to
know how to fight right, and and so we honor
that that's how you made it through that season. But
(17:14):
then there are those of us who are not in
crisis mode but still have not learned how to take
off our armor.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Yeah. Yeah, Now when you witnessed in Liberia the processing
maybe of intergenerational trauma or of civil war trauma, are
there any differences culturally to how people process in that
area in other areas. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
The two things that come to mind are and we
have a taste of the first one. We have a
taste of both of them. It just had to get
diluted and shifted in our transition. But in Liberia they
grieve and this is what we see with you would
see like at some funerals and like a black church
(18:04):
or people would be like oh right, because there's not
this suppression that you see like at the opera of
having to like contain and censor. It is like a
full body release and it is evidence of love. Like
if you don't like lay in the floor, you didn't
love them, right, So there is a call and an
(18:28):
expectation to freely feel your feelings. Right. And then the
other piece that comes to mind is the truth telling
and not sugarcoating. So like here, especially as a therapist,
if we were going to have a support group through
people for people who went through a hard time, we
(18:51):
might say like women with Wings support group, right, you know,
we don't call it something very flowery, and they literally
the aftermath of the war had a group called Women
with Rape Babies. Oh, I guess the name of the group, right.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
So it's like, we're gonna call it what it is.
And I'm like, and people are gonna come, well, how
else will they know that this is for them?
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (19:16):
My god, Oh my god, yeah, my god. So there
there's truth. There's truth.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
Wow. Yeah, that I mean, my god. The power in
that truth, like the power in calling a thing a thing, yes,
(19:47):
you know, like the power in being clear and saying
what happened to you people, being clear that that's what
happened to you.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
That if not my shame or my secret. It's like
this is me and this is the baby and we're
all here together.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Mmm wow.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
That is something just kind of in the work that
I do has actually been coming up now more than ever,
Like when I'm guiding retreats or when we're doing you know,
some trauma and form facilitation. Those are some of the
stories that have been coming up so much more. I
(20:39):
don't necessarily want to stay here, but I'm just feeling
so led to like be in the seat of this
for a second. You know, when it comes to things
like that that feel so garish, right, that feels so
in the underbelly of wellness, because we have wellness in
(21:01):
a lot of tears right now, right, And wellness quote
unquote as an industry is this nearly five trillion dollar industry.
The majority of that industry is centered in fitness, like
that's being under the umbrella of wellness. But people are
thinking that wellness and mental health and trauma are all
kind of these interchangeable words, and they are all companion words,
(21:25):
but they're not replacing each other. And so a lot
of the ways that wellness and mental health is spoken
to it in this day and age, it's really from
the lens of anxiety, and it's really from the lens
of kind of depression, but more so the daily hardship
depressions of the world or of some you know, charged
(21:45):
and unfair experiences and adverse experiences. But there is hundreds
of millions of people that don't necessarily know where they
fit in this conversation because when they're coming into these
spaces and people are sharing about what is absolutely important
and impactful in their lives. But then you do have
(22:07):
a percentage of the population that feels a little more
impossible to them to connect to this world. Right, So,
just for anybody listening right now that resonated with that
experience or an experience that is a lot harder to
stay out loud in front of a group or to
find pride in, how does one begin to approach that
(22:34):
truth in their life?
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Yeah, I would say to first whisper it to yourself? Right,
The first person I confess it to is me, you know.
So one of the invitations that I invite people to
is can you say I miss me? I miss me,
(23:00):
and that acknowledges that who I have had to be.
There are some parts of me that are missing, that
got discarded along the way, that got hidden along the way,
that got hurt along the way. And so in order
to heal, I have to first be able to see
the distinction between myself and my wound. And sometimes we
(23:24):
are identifying with the wound, like, oh, that's just how
I am. No, that's how you became. Right. So I
miss me who could sleep well at night. I miss
me who felt more confident. I miss me that didn't
have this other stuff attached to my intimacy. I miss me,
and so we can whether we journal that or speak
(23:48):
that out loud. A truth confessed to the self is
already a powerful truth. It's already instead of like, I'm good,
I'm good. It didn't bother me, I don't think about it.
I'm fine, and it's no I miss me and I
had to become this other version of myself and there
(24:08):
are some parts of me I want to get back.
Thank you, and then picking friends that cultivate truth telling, right,
It's like, because if I have to perform with you,
(24:29):
like you're not really my friend, you know, and that
may be something you're doing or the story I have
told myself, but a part of my healing is you know,
even if I don't like get up and on social
media and tell the whole story, is there anyone you
tell it to? Right? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Deeply? Well, you know the books that you've released before
this one that we're gonna step into. I mean, just
you've been doing this work for so long, for so long,
and I thank you, and I just really want to
keep saying that. And I really thank you because doing
(25:11):
work like this before most people even understood any of
the connections, right, Like, it's a heavy work. It is
such a heavy work to birth and so complex. So
some of your previous books like Thriving in the Week
of Trauma, a Multicultural Guide, you publish that in two
thousand and eight, Surviving Sexual Violence A Guide to Recovery
(25:37):
and Empowerment, publish that in twenty eleven. Tweets for the
Soul when Life Falls Apart, that beautiful book came out
in twenty fifteen, and now you have your latest book,
Healing your relationships with yourself and those you love Matters
of the Heart. What led you to this next pillar
(25:58):
in your life's.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Work, Yeah, thank you for that. Recognizing how our relationships
can nourish us or destroy us. Relationships, family, friendship, romantic,
they shape our lives. So when they are healthy relationships,
(26:20):
they're what we call protective factors. They can protect us
from the depths of depression, from anxiety, from addiction, dealing
with big life transitions. You know, if you're moving but
you have your friends, or you're going through a divorce
but you have good friends, that's a different experience. And
on the other side, unhealthy relationships, heartbreak, abandonment, those things
(26:48):
can devastate multiple areas of our lives, and they're often
not talked about in that way. So if you're successful,
then people just assume that, like everything is going to
be a success and don't really talk about how our
partnership can either elevate and nourish our lives or really
(27:11):
can take away everything.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Everything. Yeah, everything, m h.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
It's true on every level. And so I dedicated the
book to my mom, who transitioned last year as a
result of breast cancer, and she loved deeply and fiercely.
And one of the moments that stood out to me
is I had a friend who had like a very
(27:41):
rough upbringing who got to meet my parents and she said, Tama,
I wonder who I would be if I had your parents,
And it really hit me right, it makes a big difference, huge.
So I know the ways in which heard love set
me up for success, and I also know the impact
(28:06):
that lack of love, lack of nourishing can have as well.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Yeah, and I think you know, forgive me universe. I
don't know who to attribute this to, but you know
that's saying of like, it's not always what happens to you.
It's like sometimes what didn't happen to you, and like
experiences like that, And I think like, especially within the
kind of generation that is like between thirty and fifty
(28:31):
right now, that was a really specific moment in time
in the childhoods of those ages that I think, you know,
hopefully and a lot of social scientists are kind of
coming with more comprehensive studies of the effects. But you know,
being latchkey kids, being the generation that raise themselves more
(28:51):
than any other generation. It's like, I think that that
is even if you had big T trauma or not,
or just life's friction, that is a layer of grief.
A lot of people in these age demos are really
going through like you know, who, not that this moment
isn't perfect and divinely designed, but who could you have
(29:12):
been if you didn't have so much responsibility or didn't
have to do so many things by yourself, or you know,
didn't have your parents as the first generation with like
adults with AOL or the ones to be distracted and
really not you know, plopping you in front of the
TV or the chat rooms. And it's very real, like
(29:33):
there are so many things that were missed in your development,
you know that was part of your story, and so
much extra stress and trauma that lives inside it for
your body right now because of it, because of the
fast food of the time, because of it. It's every
generation definitely has their stuff in so many ways. But
(29:55):
that piece I think is really coming up for people
now more than ever. What didn't I get right?
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Eve Ensler and an interview about the Vagina Monologues, says,
all of the energy women's been healing, Like if we
didn't have to heal from the abusive relationships, from the molestation,
what could we be creating, writing, building, launching right with
(30:23):
that same energy? Which is why in therapy I often
say it's not just about decreasing symptoms of distress, it
is about now, like what are you going to create
and be? Right? So it's not just post trauma. It
is now like my growth and my thriving and like
(30:44):
now I get to be myself right.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Yeah, yeah, And just a moment of congratulations to everybody
listening that is alive and has survived and is here
listening to this episode right now, and all of the
limitless potential of who you are and who you can be.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
It is so important for us to pause and appreciate
ourselves because often we're so busy in push mode and
striving mode that we don't get to say, even if
I am not fully where I want to be, let
me acknowledge I'm not where I was, right, And so
(31:31):
to train my eyes to see my own growth.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
Oh, to train my eyes to see my own growth? Right? Oh? Yes, like, oh,
bear witness to yourself.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Yes, in all the processes. Yes, to say like a
year ago, I wouldn't have made this choice. I wouldn't
have even noticed that, or I wouldn't have even known
that I could have permission to be that way, or
to say that, yes, it's wonderful, and all the feels
when you're saying that, I'm just.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Like, oh, yes, Lord, you know in this book the
one of the subjects that you tackle that I think
is just so incredibly relevant to so many people, And
so many people cannot necessarily find the trail back to
what brought this behavior out, but issues of control, specifically
(32:31):
emotional unavailability. It feels like we are Maybe it's just
because we have language for it now, but my God,
does this seem like its own epidemic emotional unavailability and
how unreciprocated love impacts our well being? Yes? Why do
so many of us struggle with those particular patterns that
(32:51):
seems to be so so so pervasive, controlling unavailability, inability
to be truly intimate and connect and kind of finding
oneself in dynamics of unreciprocated love or feeling of all
different kinds. Why is that? Why is that so prevalent now?
(33:11):
And how do people approach it?
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Yeah? I think there has been a real devaluing a relationship.
So there is this focus on attaining and being driven
and accumulating and being booked and busy and you know, yes, right,
(33:37):
so when I am so focused in a targeted way,
I can neglect my own relationships and so then I'm
not available for that. Because another piece of it is
being raised or mentored by people who were disappointed and hurt. Yeah,
(34:00):
then they advise you, you know, don't get caught up,
don't believe them, don't do that, don't do that, And
so then we fear it not to mention our own
stories of heartbreak and disappointment. That can cause us to
(34:20):
out of fear. And I want to say it's understandable
and important that we take pause after heartbreak. Right, you
don't want to just jump into something else, But some
people get stuck in the pause. So it's been years
later and they're still like, oh no, thanks none for me.
(34:41):
I don't want it. I'm not interested. And so then
that heart never got to heal.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
Yeah, and then the part about wanting people who don't
want us and holding on to that you know this
phrase I like that people uses around bread crumbing, right. Yeah.
So they give you just like a little bit oh like, oh,
you think they're gone, and then they text you like
(35:09):
three weeks later or you know, and more, good morning sunshine.
It's a lord. And so that we can hold on
out of hope. And then also we often think about
people as being insecure, but the opposite can happen. When
you're confident and successful, you can convince yourself I'm gonna
(35:33):
win them over right, So it's not just that you
feel like you're the worst. You're just like if I
call them this, if I do this, if I dress
this way, if I am funny enough, if I you know,
then they're gonna see that I'm worth choosing. And so
to really get to that place of grounding that we
(35:57):
don't think about relationships as we think about a job promotion.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Okay, hold on, wow, can we explore that a little
bit because I think that that is it's just I
don't think everybody understands how much they perform yes, and
how much they are innately wired to quote unquote win
(36:25):
someone over, and how that gives them the kind of endurance,
the emotional you know, fortitude to keep pushing through mistreatment
or nonchalance.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
And then once the people are quote unquote one, then
they often lose interest, right, because we can get become
enamored with the pursuit, with the chase. Yeah, so we
also have to look at what is my idea about
myself that when people want me, I find that undesirable.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Yeah, hold on, get your note.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Bunk, And like you know, when they're not interested, I'm like,
oh my gosh, right, I need them. And then when
they're in your direction, it's like, oh they're born.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
So tell the people, yes, why are they doing that?
Speaker 2 (37:24):
It is own emotional unavailability. So that will create a
pattern where I am constantly interested in people who are
not reciprocating because they're not available, because the truth is
I'm not because if someone was actually to show up
for me, that could be intense, that could be overwhelming,
(37:49):
that could be very vulnerable. So instead, I'll keep waiting
for this one to leave their wife, or I'll keep
waiting for this one to let go of their six
other people and focus on me. It's safe. It's a fantasy.
And so fantasy can take up years of our lives
(38:10):
instead of creating real relationship.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
That is so important to say and be heard. Fantasy
can take up your entire life. Yes, perform, you can
leave this earth having the entire time been playing a performance. Yes,
never having been an actualized version of who you are
for anybody.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Yes, what a tragedy.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
That's not what we're here.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
Right, And to go back to telling ourselves the truth? Right,
So then the truth becomes I don't actually want anybody,
so I'm gonna keep saying I want this person who's
not choosing me. Right, So it's like, yeah, tell yourself
the truth. What's really going on here? What are you doing? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Right?
Speaker 2 (39:03):
Or the truth may be I don't believe anyone would
ever treat me well because I've never experienced it. So
for some people it's a faith walk. Can I believe
that I could be adored when I have never been?
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (39:25):
And the answer is yes you can, Yes, Yes.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
You can yes, and that is so deep. It's just
it's so interesting. You know, it's like even for those listening,
it's like we're in conversation, right, and someone listening is
like they're in the midst of their day. But like
some of the things that have just been identified, they're
(39:49):
the root of the root, right. It is the core thing,
the core, the depth of a thing that is keeping
you from everything, you know. And it's like I just yeah,
like we have to really hold that with the sacredness
it deserves, because like that is what you are alive
(40:14):
to approach. That is what the work is. And you know,
I think for a lot of people when they're trying
to understand what their work is, it's just I found
for myself it was so helpful to switch the trauma
and the disappointments to a lens of this is my
(40:34):
spiritual curriculum in this lifetime. This is exactly what I
meant to be thinking about. So instead of not thinking
about it, I must let myself think about it and
approach it and look at it because these were the
set of circumstances I was meant to be in motion
with while I'm here.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
And I think it's so important for us to recognize
that denial and minimizing and avoidance don't work. So our
wounds show up even when we say I'm fine. So
we say like, oh, I don't think about things like that.
(41:16):
I don't talk about things like that. But it affects
the way I date, It affects the way that I parent,
It affects the way I deal with authority, figures on
the job because it is unhealed. And so it's not
just like an invitation to say, oh, let's just look
at trauma for trauma's sake. Trauma is looking at you, right,
(41:38):
It is writing your story. And so I choose to
reclaim the pen that there were some things written on
the pages of my life that I did not choose, Yes,
and I'm not able to erase them. They happened, and
I have the pen now, So what do I want
to write with the rest of my story? God?
Speaker 1 (42:00):
So it's just so powerful and true and beautiful, and
it's you know, and I think, yeah, you know, so
many people avoid it, right because you think that once
you admit it or say it or look at it,
you will be ravaged by it and you will live
in it. But it's like No, I just want it
to be noticed. I just wanted to be seen a
few good times so I could be released.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
Right, we're running and you can't outrun it because it's
on you. It's in you. So it is. The more
I run from it, the bigger it gets. And when
I start to look at it and speak it, I
shrink it by recognizing I am bigger than what was
(42:45):
done to me.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
I am wow, thank you deeply well. One of the
greatest determinants of our overall wellness is truly the quality
of our relationships. From a psychological and spiritual perspective. What
(43:12):
are the core ingredients for a nourishing relationship? Friendship, romantic
in relationship? But what are the core elements of one
that is healthy and is nourishing?
Speaker 2 (43:26):
Yeah, so one is loving care Right. If I love you,
I'm not going to do certain things. Right. If I
love you and I care about you, I'm going to
be intentional. If I love you and care about you,
(43:47):
it's not a burden. You don't have to keep asking
for certain things because it's out of love. Right. So
sometimes we have to tell ourselves the truth of life.
Do you even care about that person? Right? Because sometimes
we are with people because we are into their potential,
(44:08):
which is not love. It's like, oh, I want to
make you. I'm gonna make you god my dream person
out of you. And it's like you don't care about
that person. Set them free and let them find someone
who loves them as they are. Right, So yeah, let's
on a core level that love and care in their
(44:30):
present condition. So yes, we all want to grow and evolve.
But if I don't care about you now, then I
need to release you. So that's one. Another one is you.
We hear it from everybody, which is communication. A lot
of us are conflict avoidant, so we don't speak up.
(44:57):
One we wish people would read our minds. I mean right, yeah,
I understand, and then you know, based on our past,
we might feel like if I share an issue, they
might get mad or they might leave. So now I'm
just holding it in. But the resentment is growing and
(45:20):
they're continuing the behavior, not knowing that you really care,
not knowing that that's an issue. So we have to
lean into the hard conversations and allow people to see
us with all that comes with us, and we also
have to be willing to hear them and to know
(45:43):
we're not clones. We won't think the same on everything,
our emotional response won't be the same one. So learning
each other's language is an important part of having a
healthy connection. And then we want relationships that are reciprocal
and mutual, not one sided. Whether we're talking about friendship
(46:05):
or romance. It shouldn't be one person doing everything. Yeah,
we need to give and receipt.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
What is what does reciprocal look like? Because that is
a question that comes up a lot from people because
I think often people think reciprocity is the exact same
thing in return.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
Right it may. This is an important one because our
personalities and our strengths are different.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
Right.
Speaker 2 (46:36):
So the funny that comes to my mind is with
my parents. Before my mom was dating my dad, she
was dating this guy who was a poet, so, you know,
laying it on all the words, all the words ever
from God's mouth. Tell then what she said? She started
(46:59):
dating my dad and literally, he'll sign a card love John.
Why that that's all you're gonna get? So is it
gonna now if she could write a whole, big, long poem,
but is she gonna get a poem back? No, it's
not like his thing. So we have to recognize, you know,
the ways that people show their love.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
Right.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
I was working with a couple and I raised this
point because the wife is into self help books and
wanted the husband to like read all these books about
like successful marriage, and he didn't want to read them.
But he's never been a reader. It's like when they
were dating, he wasn't a reader. When they were engaged,
he wasn't a reader. Like. So to make the number
(47:44):
of books the measure you of his love for you
is not fair. Right, doesn't mean he doesn't care, it's
just that's not his thing.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
So that's so good, And it may not be how
his brain works, Like he may not even be able
to retain in if he reads it, depending on yeah, yeah, yeah,
so he's willing to go to couple's therapy.
Speaker 2 (48:06):
Awesome, let's let's do let's do that. Yeah, let's do that.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
You know, I think one of the last things I'd
love to ask you before I invite you to do
some soul work. Loneliness is a big theme for people,
and we're seeing a lot of studies come out about it.
People are talking about it more than ever people choosing
to be single. Is that some of the highest numbers
it's ever been or at least have been recorded. You know,
(48:33):
I think a lot of one can be lonely for
so many reasons. First, let me say that I don't
want to be overly general with our understanding of loneliness
because it's so layered and there's so many there's so
many barriers, there's so many reasons for it. But you know,
one of the reasons that I think not everyone notices
is that some of their loneliness and self isolation is
(48:56):
self imposed because they don't necessarily have the tools for
deeper intimacy, though they crave it. How can people begin
to move beyond surface level interactions and start to cultivate
those deeper relationships, that deeper community, that even deeper communication
(49:17):
that they have been longing for or wanting to experience
your first time.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
Yeah, it's important that we look at the stories we've
been telling ourselves, because the story I've told myself about
love or about relationships or about attractiveness can then shape
my behavior, and that can lead me to sabotage the
(49:43):
possibility of connection. Right, So, people will say like, oh,
I really want a partner, and they go out there
at a restaurant or wherever they are and someone approaches
them and they respond in warrior mode like what do
(50:04):
you want to know my name for?
Speaker 1 (50:07):
Like, wait, I'm looking at why are you sharing at me?
Speaker 2 (50:13):
So now I'm blacking my blessing right because I showed
up for combat and I want connection. So we or
you know people who are on these apps, and I
know there can be a lot of mess on there,
but some people are like eliminating everybody. Right, It's like no,
(50:36):
then to this, to that, It's like you want to
at least have a conversation less at least see if
it's possible.
Speaker 1 (50:45):
Well that may or may not be me.
Speaker 2 (50:47):
Yeah, So in that exploring the story and then that
whole thing of like if I want something different, I
may have to do something different, right, Yeah, And it
can help to get feedback from people if you have
close friends, you know, to say, you know, are there
any things you've noticed about me in this space? Right?
(51:10):
It may be you know, oh, you hook on the
people too quickly and that either scares them away or
then you're all hooked up and it wasn't fulfilling anyway,
so you like you're back into a bad situation. But
our our people, if we've let them in, can see us,
and sometimes they can help us to see ourselves.
Speaker 1 (51:35):
Yeah, and what a gift to to be able to
ask that of people. And I do you know acknowledge
that everybody has yet those safe and kind of mutually
witnessing friendships where you can ask questions like that in
a safe way. But if you do, and if it's
just been you know, kind of a defensiveness or something
(51:56):
that comes in because you don't want to quote unquote
hear something bad about yourself, think about that and really
lean into that, because I think sometimes our friends have
a lot of deep truths for us. Our community has
a lot of deep truths for us that they may
have always wanted to say to us as an aid,
as a help, but don't necessarily know that there's space
(52:18):
to don't want to upset you or jeopardize you know
the integrity of the relationship remaining. But those can be
some of our most valuable, valuable mirrors in our lives.
Speaker 2 (52:32):
Right, It's so true. And so I would say also
for us, like being teachable, being flexible, being willing to shift.
You know that sometimes my way of talking to people
or my way of being may not align with my goal. Right,
(52:54):
So now I'm standing all my wings, I'm blacking myself.
So let me explore another way.
Speaker 1 (53:05):
This has been such a beautiful episode. At the end
of every episode, I like to invite the guys to
share some soul work with the audience. So any kind
of practice, thought, inquiry, exercise to further integrate everything that
they just experienced on this show.
Speaker 2 (53:22):
Oh wonderful. So I'll invite us to some compassion holds,
and the first ones will put our legs uncrossed and
uncross our arms. And I want to start off by saying,
I believe in body sovereignty. So with body sovereignty, nothing
that I invite you to do are you forced to do?
(53:45):
So you as I invite you, you take pause and
say do I feel like doing that? Do I want
to do that? Or do I just want to watch
them do that? You get to choose, and that's a
part of your healing. You're yes and you're no. So
if it aligns with you, one hand on your heart,
one hand on your belly inhaling in through the nose,
(54:10):
exhaling out through the mouth, and the hand on the
belly goes up to the forehead, inhale and exhale. The
hand on the heart goes to the back of the head.
(54:34):
Inhaling through the nose, exhale out through the mouth, and
hug yourself inhaling in through the nose, exhaling out through
(54:54):
the mouth. If it aligns with you, you just begin and
rocking back and forth. You are your comforter. You give
yourself grace and give yourself love. And if it aligns
with you, we say the words, I am worthy of love.
Speaker 1 (55:21):
I am worthy of love.
Speaker 2 (55:23):
I come home to myself.
Speaker 1 (55:25):
I come home to myself.
Speaker 2 (55:28):
And you can stop rocking and return to the heart
and the belly. I am worthy of love.
Speaker 1 (55:36):
I am worthy of love.
Speaker 2 (55:38):
I come home to myself.
Speaker 1 (55:40):
I come home to myself.
Speaker 2 (55:43):
Welcome home, Welcome home, beautiful. Thank you so much, Oh,
thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (56:00):
Wow. What an honor, what a pleasure, what a privilege.
Thank you so much for your work. Everyone. This beautiful
book is everywhere now. And don't forget to check out
the og classics that she has been putting out. Matters
of the Heart by doctor Tama Bryant. We'll be back
(56:21):
next episode, and in the meantime, really sit with this,
sit with some of this conversation. See where it applies,
notice where it doesn't, and share this episode with a
friend that you think could really be moved and changed
by it in a way that is helpful and supportive
to them. As always, thank you for listening. Now mistake.
(56:48):
The content presented on Deeply Well serves solely for educational
and informational purposes. It should not be considered a replacement
for personalized medical or mental health guidance. It does not
constitute a provider patient relationship. As always, it is advisable
to consult with your healthcare provider or health team for
(57:09):
any specific concerns or questions that you may have. Connect
with me on social at Debbie Brown. That's Twitter and Instagram,
or you can go to my website Debbie Brown dot com.
And if you're listening to the show on Apple Podcasts,
don't forget. Please rate, review, and subscribe and send this
episode to a friend. Deeply Well is a production of
(57:31):
iHeartRadio and The Black Effect Network. It's produced by Jacqueis Thomas,
Samantha Timmins, and me Debbie Brown. The Beautiful Soundbath You
Heard That's by Jarrelyn Glass from Crystal Cadence for more
podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows.
Speaker 2 (58:00):
Yes,
Take a deep breath in through your nose.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Holds it.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Now, release slowly again deep in, helle hold release, repeating
(01:02):
internally to yourself as you connect to my voice. I
am deeply well. I am deeply well. I am deeply wow.
(01:30):
I'm Debbie Brown and this is the Deeply Well Podcast.
Welcome to Deeply Well, a soft place to land on
your journey. A podcast for those that are curious, creative,
and ready to expand in higher consciousness and self care.
(01:54):
This is where we heal, this is where we transcend.
Welcome back to Deeply Well. This podcast we are deeply
exploring pathways to inner peace, connection and healing. And I
am so excited. As always, I'm your host, Debbie Brown,
and today I am just absolutely honored to be joined
(02:18):
by a true force in the world of psychology, healing
and spiritual restoration. Today's guest is the renowned doctor Tama Bryant,
a New York Times best selling author, clinical psychologist, teacher
and minister. Doctor Tama Bryant, a New York Times best
selling author, clinical psychologist, teacher, and minister. Doctor Tama made
(02:43):
history in twenty twenty three as the youngest female president
of the American Psychological Association. She has now just released
her newest book, Matters of the Heart, Healing your relationship
with yourself and those you love, through Penguin Random House.
Matters of the Heart combines the wisdom of science, spirituality,
(03:05):
and real life experiences to help readers tend to their
emotional wellbeing and build meaningful connections. Doctor Tama provides evidence
based practices, essential relationship skills, and strategies to address common
relational struggles. She is on a mission to help individuals
reclaim their sense of self and well being in the
(03:26):
face of trauma and oppressive systems. She completed her doctorate
in clinical psychology at Duke University, followed by postdoctoral training
at Harvard Medical Center's Victims of Violence Program. Now a
tenured professor at Pepperdine University, she focuses her research and
clinical practice on interpersonal trauma and the societal impact of oppression.
(03:50):
Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here,
doctor Tama.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Thank you so much for having me. I am so
excited to be in this soft place to land with you.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Begin Yeah, oh my gosh. I mean, first and foremost,
I just want to reflect deep gratitude to you for
the work that you do. The way your work has
moved in the world, I think really came so far
ahead of what we are now maybe beginning to think
is commonplace casual understanding of how our pathts affect us,
(04:27):
and how childhood especially affect us, and how trauma affects us.
And I think for so many people, mental health and
faith has been such a disjointed body. Right, there's this
idea that trauma belongs over here. Faith and church and
God and ministry belong here, family belongs here, personal responsibility
(04:49):
belongs here, and everything. You know, there were all of
these pieces I think that people were really screaming for
help in and it. It isn't until recently that it's
really understood how holistic it all is, and how it
really is a true blend of everything all at once
and we have to approach it that way. But that
(05:11):
has been your call and your work. How did you
begin to really in all the processes, see those connections
and put all of those puzzle pieces together.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Yeah, thank you for that. I would say it is
at the roots afrocentric. So in afrocentric psychology, afrocentric philosophy,
there is not a false dichotomy it's not like are
you spiritual or secular? Are you creative or intellectual? It's
(05:44):
all one. And so I grew up with that as
a foundation that it wasn't like are you going to
be focused in school or are you going to pray?
Like that question would never be asked. It was to
be the fullness of who you are. And so and
at the roots, psychology used to incorporate more at spirituality.
(06:06):
Psychology actually means study of the soul, and so the
founders of the field were often people of faith. But
then there was a detour as we try to prove
ourselves to be scientific. So in order to be worthy
of being a science, we had to discard all the
things we could not easily prove. And so there has
(06:27):
been a reclamation of return to not only reclaiming spirituality,
but also reclaiming the body. Yeah, I mean the body
so important.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
And it's so interesting the way just to be alive
right now, I think that's a loaded statement because it
is interesting for many reasons, but especially I think in
it does feel like a time where we do if
you're awake and aware for it, get to come home
to yourself, yes, and understand that the human experience is
(07:04):
all of those facets. You know, whenever we've spoken to mind, body,
and soul. I think for so many years, it's still
not understood that is actually what your human experience is.
You are having the experience of your mind, of your body,
of your soul, and our work is to integrate.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
That's right, because when we are seen and valued only
for our labor, then these systems benefit from the disconnection. Right,
I'm not a living soul if I am just your laborer. Right,
my heart doesn't matter, my body doesn't matter. And so
to resist that notion that the ways in which I
(07:46):
build up other institutions and systems is my worth and value,
which is often for women and people of color, that
has often been the narrative. And so to reject all
of that and say, when I'm just sitting here on
the couch, the two of us sitting here on the
couch are worthy. Yeah, we're our real sip and tea
(08:08):
and worthy. Yes, yes, yeah, that's the healing and the realization.
To come home to myself is to tell myself the truth,
and the truth is I am more than what I
do for others. I am a living soul.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
That line you set it just hit me in such
a special place. You're telling the truth. Yeah, you're telling
the truth. I remember a huge, a huge moment in
my walk with God and the building of my faith
was I was in so many dark places at once,
(08:48):
and I remember, and I've always been very wellness focused
and very holistic and very much and endure someone with
quite a bit of resilience. But I remember this phrase
came in. I just kept saying, like, God, what like
what I've surrendered?
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Like what is?
Speaker 1 (09:07):
And what else do I need to know? And the
exact wordage that came through was I accept the truth
of my life. And it's like that it doesn't have
to have a definition. And I think when people think
of understanding their truth or who and what they are,
they think it also has to be quantified or they
(09:29):
have to know what that is, or it has to
even be words that fill that space. And it's like
that peace like right when you said it, It's like
truth is so much and it's not just the language
we have access to.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
M One of my dear friends, Asia a Devo, is
a poet and she has a poem that says, who
lied right? Who lied to you? That told you a
false sense of yourself. And we have experience and people
that presented us with lies from very early and so
(10:06):
it is the discarding and shedding of those lies so
that I can know my worthiness.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Yeah, before we get into the book, I would just
love to ask a question to understand what makes such
a unique being such as yourself. So your work it's
deeply rooted in healing, in psychology and spirituality. What were
some of the moments in your life that really, as
(10:37):
you were in these different kind of facets of yourself,
really understood your call and understood to blend them.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Yeah, yeah, I think one it's what in some settings
can be seen as a weakness is actually your strength.
And so growing up I would be what was called
a sensitive child and right here we are, Here we are. Yeah,
(11:05):
it's like you know, I remember reading the story of
the Ugly Ducklan and I cried, Okay, so you feel
things so deeply and in certain settings like that's a problem.
But when you discover what you're here for, it's like, yes,
you needed to. You had to be made that way
(11:28):
right so that you could feel and be tender and
notice things people don't notice right and pay attention. So
I would say that sensitivity, just like at my heart
and nature has been really important in my shaping. And
then because my dad was a pastor, he would do
(11:49):
what they would call pastoral counseling, so instead of people
calling a therapist or a life coach, they would usually
speak to their minister. And so I say in my
prior book, Homecome, my first time working a crisis hotline
was as a kid because people would call the house
and they didn't care who answered the phone. They were
just you answer. They're crying and I'm like hello, So
(12:14):
that kind of nourishing, right. And my mother at some
when I was like in middle school, she went into
ministry as well, but focused on women's ministry, so you know,
for me later to become the president of the Society
for the Psychology of Women, as you know, I grew
up seeing her do the work right, so having that compassion.
(12:38):
And then I primarily grew up in Baltimore, which, while
it's beautiful culturally, also has a lot of community violence.
I had the wonderful experience of in high school moving
to Liberia, West Africa with my family, and the first
year and a half was amazing because I was celebrated, right,
(13:00):
and because everyone in the position of authority look like me,
So it really expands your idea of what you can be. Unfortunately,
the second year, toward the end of the second year,
there was a civil war. So you know, me dedicating
my life to trauma recovery, you know, is what I
have seen and to know that it's possible, that it's
(13:22):
devastating and it doesn't have to be the end of
our story. Wow.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
In those two places, I'm so curious, were there any
differences in the ways that you saw people process trauma
and pain.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
What I noticed in the community in Baltimore was more
suppression and that the rule is to keep it moving.
So there's a lot of you know, performing well.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Right.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
So when people say how are you, I'm good, good, right.
Or in the church community, I'm blessed, I'm better than
I do it, blessed and highly favor So we you know,
affirm ourselves even when we're struggling on the inside. So
there is not a lot of permission or space to
(14:17):
be broken hearted. Yeah, and that it is more acceptable
to be harsh than to be shattered. And so you know,
it's a lot of warriors.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Oh wait, a minute, let's sit there, because that landed,
that landed in somebody. And we on this show we
explore trauma a lot and self healing alive. And that's
the piece, right that I think is really confusing. And
I can only speak to the experiences that I have
(14:50):
really studied this in. But within black families, Yes, the
harshness that can come from your family, from your parents,
this idea of you know, well, the world ain't easy.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
So got to prepare you. So that's the idea is
that I'm toughening you up so the world doesn't devour you.
So it comes for some people from a place of love,
from good intention, but can destroy people's spirits if you're
a more soft person or amplify and celebrate the hardness,
(15:25):
and then there is not room for our humanity, right
because I got to be a warrior at eight, right,
And so there is, yeah, a pressure in order to
survive is like don't be soft.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Yeah, And one of the things that you just said,
where you know it's like this harshness. You know, I
think the people with the harshness, and we too on
the receiving end, believe it comes from love, but it
comes from a lack of practice of love. You know,
it comes from people that haven't even had the chants
to practice love for themselves, so they don't understand how
(16:04):
to live it as a verb. And yeah, wow.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
And I want to acknowledge historically there wasn't space for that.
It's like there wasn't space. What people say, like I
would be depressed, but I don't have time right there,
So it is to take up space that had been
generationally denied. Right, So people don't know how to lead
(16:30):
you to what they could never do. And so then
we are carrying people call it ancestral wounds or intergenerational wounds.
But the gift is that we can shift it right
and by our example show that there's another way. So
while we honor, what I like to say is, you know,
(16:53):
the ways you survived are not always the ways you
want to live. So it's like, that's how you made
it out of there. My mom was one of ten
in the projects of New York, so she had to
know how to fight right, and and so we honor
that that's how you made it through that season. But
(17:14):
then there are those of us who are not in
crisis mode but still have not learned how to take
off our armor.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Yeah. Yeah, Now when you witnessed in Liberia the processing
maybe of intergenerational trauma or of civil war trauma, are
there any differences culturally to how people process in that
area in other areas. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
The two things that come to mind are and we
have a taste of the first one. We have a
taste of both of them. It just had to get
diluted and shifted in our transition. But in Liberia they
grieve and this is what we see with you would
see like at some funerals and like a black church
(18:04):
or people would be like oh right, because there's not
this suppression that you see like at the opera of
having to like contain and censor. It is like a
full body release and it is evidence of love. Like
if you don't like lay in the floor, you didn't
love them, right, So there is a call and an
(18:28):
expectation to freely feel your feelings. Right. And then the
other piece that comes to mind is the truth telling
and not sugarcoating. So like here, especially as a therapist,
if we were going to have a support group through
people for people who went through a hard time, we
(18:51):
might say like women with Wings support group, right, you know,
we don't call it something very flowery, and they literally
the aftermath of the war had a group called Women
with Rape Babies. Oh, I guess the name of the group, right.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
So it's like, we're gonna call it what it is.
And I'm like, and people are gonna come, well, how
else will they know that this is for them?
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (19:16):
My god, Oh my god, yeah, my god. So there
there's truth. There's truth.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
Wow. Yeah, that I mean, my god. The power in
that truth, like the power in calling a thing a thing, yes,
(19:47):
you know, like the power in being clear and saying
what happened to you people, being clear that that's what
happened to you.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
That if not my shame or my secret. It's like
this is me and this is the baby and we're
all here together.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Mmm wow.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
That is something just kind of in the work that
I do has actually been coming up now more than ever,
Like when I'm guiding retreats or when we're doing you know,
some trauma and form facilitation. Those are some of the
stories that have been coming up so much more. I
(20:39):
don't necessarily want to stay here, but I'm just feeling
so led to like be in the seat of this
for a second. You know, when it comes to things
like that that feel so garish, right, that feels so
in the underbelly of wellness, because we have wellness in
(21:01):
a lot of tears right now, right, And wellness quote
unquote as an industry is this nearly five trillion dollar industry.
The majority of that industry is centered in fitness, like
that's being under the umbrella of wellness. But people are
thinking that wellness and mental health and trauma are all
kind of these interchangeable words, and they are all companion words,
(21:25):
but they're not replacing each other. And so a lot
of the ways that wellness and mental health is spoken
to it in this day and age, it's really from
the lens of anxiety, and it's really from the lens
of kind of depression, but more so the daily hardship
depressions of the world or of some you know, charged
(21:45):
and unfair experiences and adverse experiences. But there is hundreds
of millions of people that don't necessarily know where they
fit in this conversation because when they're coming into these
spaces and people are sharing about what is absolutely important
and impactful in their lives. But then you do have
(22:07):
a percentage of the population that feels a little more
impossible to them to connect to this world. Right, So,
just for anybody listening right now that resonated with that
experience or an experience that is a lot harder to
stay out loud in front of a group or to
find pride in, how does one begin to approach that
(22:34):
truth in their life?
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Yeah, I would say to first whisper it to yourself? Right,
The first person I confess it to is me, you know.
So one of the invitations that I invite people to
is can you say I miss me? I miss me,
(23:00):
and that acknowledges that who I have had to be.
There are some parts of me that are missing, that
got discarded along the way, that got hidden along the way,
that got hurt along the way. And so in order
to heal, I have to first be able to see
the distinction between myself and my wound. And sometimes we
(23:24):
are identifying with the wound, like, oh, that's just how
I am. No, that's how you became. Right. So I
miss me who could sleep well at night. I miss
me who felt more confident. I miss me that didn't
have this other stuff attached to my intimacy. I miss me,
and so we can whether we journal that or speak
(23:48):
that out loud. A truth confessed to the self is
already a powerful truth. It's already instead of like, I'm good,
I'm good. It didn't bother me, I don't think about it.
I'm fine, and it's no I miss me and I
had to become this other version of myself and there
(24:08):
are some parts of me I want to get back.
Thank you, and then picking friends that cultivate truth telling, right,
It's like, because if I have to perform with you,
(24:29):
like you're not really my friend, you know, and that
may be something you're doing or the story I have
told myself, but a part of my healing is you know,
even if I don't like get up and on social
media and tell the whole story, is there anyone you
tell it to? Right? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Deeply? Well, you know the books that you've released before
this one that we're gonna step into. I mean, just
you've been doing this work for so long, for so long,
and I thank you, and I just really want to
keep saying that. And I really thank you because doing
(25:11):
work like this before most people even understood any of
the connections, right, Like, it's a heavy work. It is
such a heavy work to birth and so complex. So
some of your previous books like Thriving in the Week
of Trauma, a Multicultural Guide, you publish that in two
thousand and eight, Surviving Sexual Violence A Guide to Recovery
(25:37):
and Empowerment, publish that in twenty eleven. Tweets for the
Soul when Life Falls Apart, that beautiful book came out
in twenty fifteen, and now you have your latest book,
Healing your relationships with yourself and those you love Matters
of the Heart. What led you to this next pillar
(25:58):
in your life's.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Work, Yeah, thank you for that. Recognizing how our relationships
can nourish us or destroy us. Relationships, family, friendship, romantic,
they shape our lives. So when they are healthy relationships,
(26:20):
they're what we call protective factors. They can protect us
from the depths of depression, from anxiety, from addiction, dealing
with big life transitions. You know, if you're moving but
you have your friends, or you're going through a divorce
but you have good friends, that's a different experience. And
on the other side, unhealthy relationships, heartbreak, abandonment, those things
(26:48):
can devastate multiple areas of our lives, and they're often
not talked about in that way. So if you're successful,
then people just assume that, like everything is going to
be a success and don't really talk about how our
partnership can either elevate and nourish our lives or really
(27:11):
can take away everything.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Everything. Yeah, everything, m h.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
It's true on every level. And so I dedicated the
book to my mom, who transitioned last year as a
result of breast cancer, and she loved deeply and fiercely.
And one of the moments that stood out to me
is I had a friend who had like a very
(27:41):
rough upbringing who got to meet my parents and she said, Tama,
I wonder who I would be if I had your parents,
And it really hit me right, it makes a big difference, huge.
So I know the ways in which heard love set
me up for success, and I also know the impact
(28:06):
that lack of love, lack of nourishing can have as well.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Yeah, and I think you know, forgive me universe. I
don't know who to attribute this to, but you know
that's saying of like, it's not always what happens to you.
It's like sometimes what didn't happen to you, and like
experiences like that, And I think like, especially within the
kind of generation that is like between thirty and fifty
(28:31):
right now, that was a really specific moment in time
in the childhoods of those ages that I think, you know,
hopefully and a lot of social scientists are kind of
coming with more comprehensive studies of the effects. But you know,
being latchkey kids, being the generation that raise themselves more
(28:51):
than any other generation. It's like, I think that that
is even if you had big T trauma or not,
or just life's friction, that is a layer of grief.
A lot of people in these age demos are really
going through like you know, who, not that this moment
isn't perfect and divinely designed, but who could you have
(29:12):
been if you didn't have so much responsibility or didn't
have to do so many things by yourself, or you know,
didn't have your parents as the first generation with like
adults with AOL or the ones to be distracted and
really not you know, plopping you in front of the
TV or the chat rooms. And it's very real, like
(29:33):
there are so many things that were missed in your development,
you know that was part of your story, and so
much extra stress and trauma that lives inside it for
your body right now because of it, because of the
fast food of the time, because of it. It's every
generation definitely has their stuff in so many ways. But
(29:55):
that piece I think is really coming up for people
now more than ever. What didn't I get right?
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Eve Ensler and an interview about the Vagina Monologues, says,
all of the energy women's been healing, Like if we
didn't have to heal from the abusive relationships, from the molestation,
what could we be creating, writing, building, launching right with
(30:23):
that same energy? Which is why in therapy I often
say it's not just about decreasing symptoms of distress, it
is about now, like what are you going to create
and be? Right? So it's not just post trauma. It
is now like my growth and my thriving and like
(30:44):
now I get to be myself right.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Yeah, yeah, And just a moment of congratulations to everybody
listening that is alive and has survived and is here
listening to this episode right now, and all of the
limitless potential of who you are and who you can be.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
It is so important for us to pause and appreciate
ourselves because often we're so busy in push mode and
striving mode that we don't get to say, even if
I am not fully where I want to be, let
me acknowledge I'm not where I was, right, And so
(31:31):
to train my eyes to see my own growth.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
Oh, to train my eyes to see my own growth? Right? Oh? Yes, like, oh,
bear witness to yourself.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Yes, in all the processes. Yes, to say like a
year ago, I wouldn't have made this choice. I wouldn't
have even noticed that, or I wouldn't have even known
that I could have permission to be that way, or
to say that, yes, it's wonderful, and all the feels
when you're saying that, I'm just.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Like, oh, yes, Lord, you know in this book the
one of the subjects that you tackle that I think
is just so incredibly relevant to so many people, And
so many people cannot necessarily find the trail back to
what brought this behavior out, but issues of control, specifically
(32:31):
emotional unavailability. It feels like we are Maybe it's just
because we have language for it now, but my God,
does this seem like its own epidemic emotional unavailability and
how unreciprocated love impacts our well being? Yes? Why do
so many of us struggle with those particular patterns that
(32:51):
seems to be so so so pervasive, controlling unavailability, inability
to be truly intimate and connect and kind of finding
oneself in dynamics of unreciprocated love or feeling of all
different kinds. Why is that? Why is that so prevalent now?
(33:11):
And how do people approach it?
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Yeah? I think there has been a real devaluing a relationship.
So there is this focus on attaining and being driven
and accumulating and being booked and busy and you know, yes, right,
(33:37):
so when I am so focused in a targeted way,
I can neglect my own relationships and so then I'm
not available for that. Because another piece of it is
being raised or mentored by people who were disappointed and hurt. Yeah,
(34:00):
then they advise you, you know, don't get caught up,
don't believe them, don't do that, don't do that, And
so then we fear it not to mention our own
stories of heartbreak and disappointment. That can cause us to
(34:20):
out of fear. And I want to say it's understandable
and important that we take pause after heartbreak. Right, you
don't want to just jump into something else, But some
people get stuck in the pause. So it's been years
later and they're still like, oh no, thanks none for me.
(34:41):
I don't want it. I'm not interested. And so then
that heart never got to heal.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
Yeah, and then the part about wanting people who don't
want us and holding on to that you know this
phrase I like that people uses around bread crumbing, right. Yeah.
So they give you just like a little bit oh like, oh,
you think they're gone, and then they text you like
(35:09):
three weeks later or you know, and more, good morning sunshine.
It's a lord. And so that we can hold on
out of hope. And then also we often think about
people as being insecure, but the opposite can happen. When
you're confident and successful, you can convince yourself I'm gonna
(35:33):
win them over right, So it's not just that you
feel like you're the worst. You're just like if I
call them this, if I do this, if I dress
this way, if I am funny enough, if I you know,
then they're gonna see that I'm worth choosing. And so
to really get to that place of grounding that we
(35:57):
don't think about relationships as we think about a job promotion.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Okay, hold on, wow, can we explore that a little
bit because I think that that is it's just I
don't think everybody understands how much they perform yes, and
how much they are innately wired to quote unquote win
(36:25):
someone over, and how that gives them the kind of endurance,
the emotional you know, fortitude to keep pushing through mistreatment
or nonchalance.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
And then once the people are quote unquote one, then
they often lose interest, right, because we can get become
enamored with the pursuit, with the chase. Yeah, so we
also have to look at what is my idea about
myself that when people want me, I find that undesirable.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Yeah, hold on, get your note.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Bunk, And like you know, when they're not interested, I'm like,
oh my gosh, right, I need them. And then when
they're in your direction, it's like, oh they're born.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
So tell the people, yes, why are they doing that?
Speaker 2 (37:24):
It is own emotional unavailability. So that will create a
pattern where I am constantly interested in people who are
not reciprocating because they're not available, because the truth is
I'm not because if someone was actually to show up
for me, that could be intense, that could be overwhelming,
(37:49):
that could be very vulnerable. So instead, I'll keep waiting
for this one to leave their wife, or I'll keep
waiting for this one to let go of their six
other people and focus on me. It's safe. It's a fantasy.
And so fantasy can take up years of our lives
(38:10):
instead of creating real relationship.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
That is so important to say and be heard. Fantasy
can take up your entire life. Yes, perform, you can
leave this earth having the entire time been playing a performance. Yes,
never having been an actualized version of who you are
for anybody.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Yes, what a tragedy.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
That's not what we're here.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
Right, And to go back to telling ourselves the truth? Right,
So then the truth becomes I don't actually want anybody,
so I'm gonna keep saying I want this person who's
not choosing me. Right, So it's like, yeah, tell yourself
the truth. What's really going on here? What are you doing? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Right?
Speaker 2 (39:03):
Or the truth may be I don't believe anyone would
ever treat me well because I've never experienced it. So
for some people it's a faith walk. Can I believe
that I could be adored when I have never been?
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (39:25):
And the answer is yes you can, Yes, Yes.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
You can yes, and that is so deep. It's just
it's so interesting. You know, it's like even for those listening,
it's like we're in conversation, right, and someone listening is
like they're in the midst of their day. But like
some of the things that have just been identified, they're
(39:49):
the root of the root, right. It is the core thing,
the core, the depth of a thing that is keeping
you from everything, you know. And it's like I just yeah,
like we have to really hold that with the sacredness
it deserves, because like that is what you are alive
(40:14):
to approach. That is what the work is. And you know,
I think for a lot of people when they're trying
to understand what their work is, it's just I found
for myself it was so helpful to switch the trauma
and the disappointments to a lens of this is my
(40:34):
spiritual curriculum in this lifetime. This is exactly what I
meant to be thinking about. So instead of not thinking
about it, I must let myself think about it and
approach it and look at it because these were the
set of circumstances I was meant to be in motion
with while I'm here.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
And I think it's so important for us to recognize
that denial and minimizing and avoidance don't work. So our
wounds show up even when we say I'm fine. So
we say like, oh, I don't think about things like that.
(41:16):
I don't talk about things like that. But it affects
the way I date, It affects the way that I parent,
It affects the way I deal with authority, figures on
the job because it is unhealed. And so it's not
just like an invitation to say, oh, let's just look
at trauma for trauma's sake. Trauma is looking at you, right,
(41:38):
It is writing your story. And so I choose to
reclaim the pen that there were some things written on
the pages of my life that I did not choose, Yes,
and I'm not able to erase them. They happened, and
I have the pen now, So what do I want
to write with the rest of my story? God?
Speaker 1 (42:00):
So it's just so powerful and true and beautiful, and
it's you know, and I think, yeah, you know, so
many people avoid it, right because you think that once
you admit it or say it or look at it,
you will be ravaged by it and you will live
in it. But it's like No, I just want it
to be noticed. I just wanted to be seen a
few good times so I could be released.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
Right, we're running and you can't outrun it because it's
on you. It's in you. So it is. The more
I run from it, the bigger it gets. And when
I start to look at it and speak it, I
shrink it by recognizing I am bigger than what was
(42:45):
done to me.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
I am wow, thank you deeply well. One of the
greatest determinants of our overall wellness is truly the quality
of our relationships. From a psychological and spiritual perspective. What
(43:12):
are the core ingredients for a nourishing relationship? Friendship, romantic
in relationship? But what are the core elements of one
that is healthy and is nourishing?
Speaker 2 (43:26):
Yeah, so one is loving care Right. If I love you,
I'm not going to do certain things. Right. If I
love you and I care about you, I'm going to
be intentional. If I love you and care about you,
(43:47):
it's not a burden. You don't have to keep asking
for certain things because it's out of love. Right. So
sometimes we have to tell ourselves the truth of life.
Do you even care about that person? Right? Because sometimes
we are with people because we are into their potential,
(44:08):
which is not love. It's like, oh, I want to
make you. I'm gonna make you god my dream person
out of you. And it's like you don't care about
that person. Set them free and let them find someone
who loves them as they are. Right, So yeah, let's
on a core level that love and care in their
(44:30):
present condition. So yes, we all want to grow and evolve.
But if I don't care about you now, then I
need to release you. So that's one. Another one is you.
We hear it from everybody, which is communication. A lot
of us are conflict avoidant, so we don't speak up.
(44:57):
One we wish people would read our minds. I mean right, yeah,
I understand, and then you know, based on our past,
we might feel like if I share an issue, they
might get mad or they might leave. So now I'm
just holding it in. But the resentment is growing and
(45:20):
they're continuing the behavior, not knowing that you really care,
not knowing that that's an issue. So we have to
lean into the hard conversations and allow people to see
us with all that comes with us, and we also
have to be willing to hear them and to know
(45:43):
we're not clones. We won't think the same on everything,
our emotional response won't be the same one. So learning
each other's language is an important part of having a
healthy connection. And then we want relationships that are reciprocal
and mutual, not one sided. Whether we're talking about friendship
(46:05):
or romance. It shouldn't be one person doing everything. Yeah,
we need to give and receipt.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
What is what does reciprocal look like? Because that is
a question that comes up a lot from people because
I think often people think reciprocity is the exact same
thing in return.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
Right it may. This is an important one because our
personalities and our strengths are different.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
Right.
Speaker 2 (46:36):
So the funny that comes to my mind is with
my parents. Before my mom was dating my dad, she
was dating this guy who was a poet, so, you know,
laying it on all the words, all the words ever
from God's mouth. Tell then what she said? She started
(46:59):
dating my dad and literally, he'll sign a card love John.
Why that that's all you're gonna get? So is it
gonna now if she could write a whole, big, long poem,
but is she gonna get a poem back? No, it's
not like his thing. So we have to recognize, you know,
the ways that people show their love.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
Right.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
I was working with a couple and I raised this
point because the wife is into self help books and
wanted the husband to like read all these books about
like successful marriage, and he didn't want to read them.
But he's never been a reader. It's like when they
were dating, he wasn't a reader. When they were engaged,
he wasn't a reader. Like. So to make the number
(47:44):
of books the measure you of his love for you
is not fair. Right, doesn't mean he doesn't care, it's
just that's not his thing.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
So that's so good, And it may not be how
his brain works, Like he may not even be able
to retain in if he reads it, depending on yeah, yeah, yeah,
so he's willing to go to couple's therapy.
Speaker 2 (48:06):
Awesome, let's let's do let's do that. Yeah, let's do that.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
You know, I think one of the last things I'd
love to ask you before I invite you to do
some soul work. Loneliness is a big theme for people,
and we're seeing a lot of studies come out about it.
People are talking about it more than ever people choosing
to be single. Is that some of the highest numbers
it's ever been or at least have been recorded. You know,
(48:33):
I think a lot of one can be lonely for
so many reasons. First, let me say that I don't
want to be overly general with our understanding of loneliness
because it's so layered and there's so many there's so
many barriers, there's so many reasons for it. But you know,
one of the reasons that I think not everyone notices
is that some of their loneliness and self isolation is
(48:56):
self imposed because they don't necessarily have the tools for
deeper intimacy, though they crave it. How can people begin
to move beyond surface level interactions and start to cultivate
those deeper relationships, that deeper community, that even deeper communication
(49:17):
that they have been longing for or wanting to experience
your first time.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
Yeah, it's important that we look at the stories we've
been telling ourselves, because the story I've told myself about
love or about relationships or about attractiveness can then shape
my behavior, and that can lead me to sabotage the
(49:43):
possibility of connection. Right, So, people will say like, oh,
I really want a partner, and they go out there
at a restaurant or wherever they are and someone approaches
them and they respond in warrior mode like what do
(50:04):
you want to know my name for?
Speaker 1 (50:07):
Like, wait, I'm looking at why are you sharing at me?
Speaker 2 (50:13):
So now I'm blacking my blessing right because I showed
up for combat and I want connection. So we or
you know people who are on these apps, and I
know there can be a lot of mess on there,
but some people are like eliminating everybody. Right, It's like no,
(50:36):
then to this, to that, It's like you want to
at least have a conversation less at least see if
it's possible.
Speaker 1 (50:45):
Well that may or may not be me.
Speaker 2 (50:47):
Yeah, So in that exploring the story and then that
whole thing of like if I want something different, I
may have to do something different, right, Yeah, And it
can help to get feedback from people if you have
close friends, you know, to say, you know, are there
any things you've noticed about me in this space? Right?
(51:10):
It may be you know, oh, you hook on the
people too quickly and that either scares them away or
then you're all hooked up and it wasn't fulfilling anyway,
so you like you're back into a bad situation. But
our our people, if we've let them in, can see us,
and sometimes they can help us to see ourselves.
Speaker 1 (51:35):
Yeah, and what a gift to to be able to
ask that of people. And I do you know acknowledge
that everybody has yet those safe and kind of mutually
witnessing friendships where you can ask questions like that in
a safe way. But if you do, and if it's
just been you know, kind of a defensiveness or something
(51:56):
that comes in because you don't want to quote unquote
hear something bad about yourself, think about that and really
lean into that, because I think sometimes our friends have
a lot of deep truths for us. Our community has
a lot of deep truths for us that they may
have always wanted to say to us as an aid,
as a help, but don't necessarily know that there's space
(52:18):
to don't want to upset you or jeopardize you know
the integrity of the relationship remaining. But those can be
some of our most valuable, valuable mirrors in our lives.
Speaker 2 (52:32):
Right, It's so true. And so I would say also
for us, like being teachable, being flexible, being willing to shift.
You know that sometimes my way of talking to people
or my way of being may not align with my goal. Right,
(52:54):
So now I'm standing all my wings, I'm blacking myself.
So let me explore another way.
Speaker 1 (53:05):
This has been such a beautiful episode. At the end
of every episode, I like to invite the guys to
share some soul work with the audience. So any kind
of practice, thought, inquiry, exercise to further integrate everything that
they just experienced on this show.
Speaker 2 (53:22):
Oh wonderful. So I'll invite us to some compassion holds,
and the first ones will put our legs uncrossed and
uncross our arms. And I want to start off by saying,
I believe in body sovereignty. So with body sovereignty, nothing
that I invite you to do are you forced to do?
(53:45):
So you as I invite you, you take pause and
say do I feel like doing that? Do I want
to do that? Or do I just want to watch
them do that? You get to choose, and that's a
part of your healing. You're yes and you're no. So
if it aligns with you, one hand on your heart,
one hand on your belly inhaling in through the nose,
(54:10):
exhaling out through the mouth, and the hand on the
belly goes up to the forehead, inhale and exhale. The
hand on the heart goes to the back of the head.
(54:34):
Inhaling through the nose, exhale out through the mouth, and
hug yourself inhaling in through the nose, exhaling out through
(54:54):
the mouth. If it aligns with you, you just begin and
rocking back and forth. You are your comforter. You give
yourself grace and give yourself love. And if it aligns
with you, we say the words, I am worthy of love.
Speaker 1 (55:21):
I am worthy of love.
Speaker 2 (55:23):
I come home to myself.
Speaker 1 (55:25):
I come home to myself.
Speaker 2 (55:28):
And you can stop rocking and return to the heart
and the belly. I am worthy of love.
Speaker 1 (55:36):
I am worthy of love.
Speaker 2 (55:38):
I come home to myself.
Speaker 1 (55:40):
I come home to myself.
Speaker 2 (55:43):
Welcome home, Welcome home, beautiful. Thank you so much, Oh,
thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (56:00):
Wow. What an honor, what a pleasure, what a privilege.
Thank you so much for your work. Everyone. This beautiful
book is everywhere now. And don't forget to check out
the og classics that she has been putting out. Matters
of the Heart by doctor Tama Bryant. We'll be back
(56:21):
next episode, and in the meantime, really sit with this,
sit with some of this conversation. See where it applies,
notice where it doesn't, and share this episode with a
friend that you think could really be moved and changed
by it in a way that is helpful and supportive
to them. As always, thank you for listening. Now mistake.
(56:48):
The content presented on Deeply Well serves solely for educational
and informational purposes. It should not be considered a replacement
for personalized medical or mental health guidance. It does not
constitute a provider patient relationship. As always, it is advisable
to consult with your healthcare provider or health team for
(57:09):
any specific concerns or questions that you may have. Connect
with me on social at Debbie Brown. That's Twitter and Instagram,
or you can go to my website Debbie Brown dot com.
And if you're listening to the show on Apple Podcasts,
don't forget. Please rate, review, and subscribe and send this
episode to a friend. Deeply Well is a production of
(57:31):
iHeartRadio and The Black Effect Network. It's produced by Jacqueis Thomas,
Samantha Timmins, and me Debbie Brown. The Beautiful Soundbath You
Heard That's by Jarrelyn Glass from Crystal Cadence for more
podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows.
Speaker 2 (58:00):
Yes,
Host
Devi Brown
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