October 9, 2025 • 58 mins
What does it mean to build and belong to community? Not just in theory, but in practice, with care and intention. She’s joined by the thoughtful and deeply insightful Nike Aurea, an inclusion consultant, educator, and host of The Catalyst Podcast.
Together, they explore what it takes to create communities rooted in shared values — communities that feel safe, authentic, and spacious enough to hold both joy and truth. Nike offers a powerful perspective on the difference between meaningful connection and the performance of connection we often witness on social media.
This episode holds space for the realities many of us carry: the weight of past wounds, the confusion between accountability and punishment, and the burnout that comes from overextending ourselves in the name of care. Devi and Nike speak to the importance of boundaries; not as walls, but as invitations for mutual respect and sustainability.
With clarity, compassion, and honesty, this conversation is a gentle call to redefine how we show up for each other. It’s a reminder that real community isn’t about perfection, it’s about presence, intention, and the willingness to grow together.
Connect: @DeviBrown @NikeAurea
Learn More: NikeAurea.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Take a deep breath in through your nose. Holds it.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Now, release slowly again, deep in, helle.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Hold release, repeating internally to yourself as you connect to
my voice. I am deeply well. I am deeply well.
(01:22):
I am deeply I'm Debbie Brown and this is the
Deeply Well Podcast. Welcome to Deeply Well, a soft place
(01:56):
to land in your journey. A podcast for those that
are curious, creative, and ready to expand in higher consciousness
and self care. This is where we heal, this is
where we transcend. Welcome back everyone, of course, I'm Debbie Brown.
This is deeply Well and something that we have been
(02:18):
exploring for quite a few episodes this season. Is this
idea of coming out of our internal worlds and coming
back into community and what does community look feel like?
Speaker 1 (02:34):
What could it be? What has it been?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
This is a moment in time where we should be
thinking about this always. We should be talking about this.
We should be really developing and understanding what our connection
to community is, what our philosophy of it is, and
how to really build it out. And the time is now,
(02:59):
this is the need. So we've been diving into that
and today we are going to really really go deep
with it. I am thrilled for this episode. We are
going to discuss what it means to lead with care
and to create spaces where everyone feels seen and supported,
and we're all doing our own work as we're doing
collective work. On this episode, I'm really excited to share
(03:23):
a brand new guest who I have just recently become
such an absolute fan of her work and such an admirer,
Nike Aria. Nike Aria is an inclusion consultant, educator and
host of the Catalyst podcast. Through her work, she helps leaders, educators,
and entrepreneurs design intentional and sustainable communities that feel safe, aligned,
(03:49):
and rooted in care without the pressure of perfection or performance.
With the background in education and strategy, Nike Bridge is
the gap between intention and action by guiding teams, programs,
and digital spaces to create structures that support collective care, accountability,
(04:11):
and long term sustainability. Her approach is practical, values led
and deeply grounded in building communities where everyone feels seen
and supported.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Nike Welcome to the show.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
Thank you for having me girl.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
I'm excited, So I'll tell you a little bit of
my background of your work. So one, you know, just
being in this space and really watching this space, I
mean profoundly grow over the last fifteen years. I am
always looking for really the nuanial ways that the industry
(04:52):
is changing, but more so that the consciousness of humanity
is changing and where it's going. And so we just
got out of this very necessary kind of incubation of inner.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Work the last half a decade, right. We needed to
be there.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
We needed the isolation in my belief and my philosophy
of the pandemic. We needed the isolation of ourselves. We
needed to rip ourselves out of groups because a lot
of I felt the way that we were in groups
was dysfunctional and toxic and selfish and not rooted in
(05:30):
anything real for a long time, and so so many
of us, by the millions, were ripped out of those worlds,
in those spaces and called to go inward, and called
to be hermit, and called to get a little selfish
and get a little individualistic. But nothing is forever. It's
all cyclical. We needed that for what we needed it for.
(05:54):
And now it's time to kind of tie that in
a bow and integrate it and get back into the
world world and do the work of each other, do
the work of community, do the work of building, and so,
as fate would have it, you crossed my digital path,
and one day on my Explorer page.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
I saw a post that you had put up about.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
Community, and I thought, wow, this is a really powerful thought.
I'm so glad that this is being said aloud, and
I'm so glad that this is being created into something
that we don't even know yet. So I clicked on
that post, I read it. I was really inspired by it,
and then I kind of took in all of the
(06:38):
ways that you share your work after that, and I
spent time with it. The last couple of months, I've
been checking in on you, and I've been like, Wow,
this is powerful, powerful, powerful, And I think the way
that you share your philosophy and your depth of understanding
around something that the vast majority of the world has
(07:01):
little to absolutely no practicing, I think it's really incredible,
and I think it's very divinely timed and aligned.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
So thank you for your work. I'm so glad you're
doing it.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
Oh, thank you so much.
Speaker 5 (07:13):
Yeah, I'm so glad that people are resonating with it,
especially after talking about it for so long and feeling
like nobody's seeing it.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
But girl, it takes time sometimes.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
That is we have explored that on this show. Is
that is the sometimes the bane of my life. You know,
you see something so clearly and you get it, and
then life in the world and humanity has to catch up.
A few developmental things have to happen, some shifts have
to happen.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Before they're ready for what the work of your life is.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
So, you know what I would really love to start in,
let's anchor this conversation first in.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
You're in so community.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Community is as a does antiquity, It's as old as
the beginning of human time, right, but the need for it,
the way we craft it now, I think is probably
more dimensional than it's ever been, more necessary than it's
ever been. So how did this community become the work
(08:20):
of your life? And how did you know that this
was your path and your unique perspective.
Speaker 5 (08:27):
Yeah, that's such a great, great question, I think. So,
I my parents are immigrants, They're from West Africa, where
community is really really important. But my family, like my
parents and my sister and I are the only family
in these states, so we had to be close knit.
(08:50):
But also my parents, who raised my sister to be
very independent with the values of community, right, so like
always rooting back home. We would go visit family every
summer extensively, we would always talk on the phone. When
webcam became a thing, we would always webcam with our
(09:12):
family and an extension of family, right like friends that
became family.
Speaker 4 (09:17):
So I always knew the.
Speaker 5 (09:18):
Importance of community and having somewhere to root back to,
even though it wasn't always there, like in the day
to day. But because it wasn't always there in the
day to day, I found myself like really craving that
and knowing that that is something that I wanted to create,
especially the older that I got. So I think that's
(09:38):
really what kind of shaped my understanding of community in
terms of knowing those values and seeing how even with
distance you could still have strong community bases. But when
there is distance, how can we create or be a
part of spaces so we can root back to those
communities because we do need it in our day to
day even if there's other stric constances that don't allow
(10:01):
us to have it.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
When I tell you, like, I have so many paths
I want to take this journey of a conversation on that,
I'm like, where do I begin and how do I start,
because yeah, oh.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
It's such a layered it's so laired to even think about.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Because I think we all have different definitions of what
community is and also have sometimes traumatizing experiences in community
and sometimes don't feel that we have enough to offer
community or enough to give communities. So what in your definition,
like what is healthy community? What is the community ecosystem?
(10:43):
What does that word mean?
Speaker 4 (10:45):
Well to me?
Speaker 5 (10:46):
Communities when you have shared values and you have a
shared mission, and that is so broad, right, Like I
like to say, it can be anyway or from like
a book club to like your corporate workplace. It really
can be a spectrum. It could be something that is
something you're getting paid for in the workplace, to like
something you're just wanting to do and seek out. But
(11:08):
I think healthier communities have shared values and shared mission.
So you're going to that place or that space because
you want to do you have a certain goal or intention.
But also everyone in that space has the same values
that are named too, because a lot of times we
can think that we have the same values, but no
(11:28):
one's naming it. And then something happens and then you realize, actually,
we don't have the same values at all. So I
always say that's the basis of community spaces, right, shared mission,
shared value, and then other things can come through depending
on what niche the communities in, how you want the
(11:48):
community to be, what you need from that community, and
also what capacity you have to give to community, because
a lot of times I think we also don't. We
don't realize that we have to take in consideration in
our own capacity when it comes to participating and contributing
to community spaces. A lot of times I see folks
say I want a community, and it's like great, but
(12:11):
what do you want to give.
Speaker 4 (12:13):
To a community?
Speaker 5 (12:13):
Because you want a community, but then if you have
little to give to it, it's not an aligned community.
Speaker 4 (12:22):
You're ready starting from like off place.
Speaker 5 (12:27):
So yeah, shared mission, shared value, and then after you
have that, that's when you can add other things and
really make it like a groovy, safe, beautiful space.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Yeah. Okay, this is also.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Giving me language and letting me know.
Speaker 6 (12:46):
That for.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
The possibility and use of this episode, maybe I should
clarify what communities I want to talk about. Oh yeah, yes,
because I'm thinking right now, like as you're saying that,
I'm like, yeah, we got because we like, a single
person can be a part of so many different communities
at the same time, and they could be filling different needs.
(13:09):
You have workplace community, you have hobby community like book
club or things. You have family community or second family,
desired family, creative family type of community. You have cultural community.
You know, if you're a parent, you have your school community.
Like there are so many communities, which also shows like
(13:29):
how many values one can hold, right exactly, yeah, yeah,
and how many intersect and they intersect, and that also
sometimes can be so different because I can have shared
values with one community in this community and also have
values that might conflict with that community in another community.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
Exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
No, wonder we're all so confused about how to be
a healthy community.
Speaker 4 (13:55):
No, Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 5 (13:56):
And that's why sometimes when folks say, like, oh, I
don't have a community, I'm like, you don't community. You're
just not realizing, like your neighborhood is your community. Yeah,
Now it depends how involved you're in it or not,
but still to the core of it, you are part
of that cam. Yeah, your workplace is your community. Your
tennis club is your community. You going to your local
(14:18):
rec center is your community.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
If you're in a sorority or a fraternity. Also, there's
the difference between what is paid community, like you're pain
to be a part of this community, so you're in
the community with other people that are paying to be
a part of it. There's online community, and then there's
like yeah those kind of like there's the community that
(14:43):
you could pay to participate in in different ways, like
you know, like a league or some kind of a sporting.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Community, and wow.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
Yeah, yeah, it's kind of endless, which is interesting because
I think, yeah, we should be aware of that because
every anything we're walking into with more than ourselves as
being in community exactly.
Speaker 5 (15:04):
Yeah, which is why we should practice it, because it's
anotherable that we are going to encounter community spaces.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
I think, for like for the for kind of the
use of illustrating and teaching in this episode, I think
where I'd love to land is sitting in the idea
of maybe community as what we're building as like support
and resource and more than likely in a free dynamic
(15:33):
like the creation of groups of people that you interact
with maybe really regularly where you're relying on each other for.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
Kind of more of an intimate way. Maybe, yeah, like
chosen community.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
Yeah, like chosen community. Like when we think of that
term like build your tribe or do you have a
tribe who's a part of that?
Speaker 1 (15:56):
What would that look like? Like what do we call that?
Speaker 5 (15:59):
Yeah, I think it's just like chosen community space and
it could be digital, it could be in person, it
could still get complex, but yeah, chosen community where it's
like again, I think you still have shared values and
shared mission right, like the mission might it's with missions
sometimes they find that Folks think it has to be
an official thing, like we are striving to do this,
(16:20):
this and this, but shared mission can literally just be
we just want to have fun. Yeah, we're all agreeing
to have fun together.
Speaker 6 (16:29):
There's turn up community, yeah exactly, and then the values
that go with that, like what does the fun mean
to each and every one of us because we all
have different definitions of fun.
Speaker 5 (16:40):
But yeah, I would say that's called like chosen community
with the shared mission and values.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
And I think right now, when I see a lot
of people talking about it, at least you know the
view I have from my algorithm on social it's really
it's people looking to create. Yeah, just who is who
is my circle?
Speaker 6 (17:01):
Right?
Speaker 3 (17:02):
And not even necessarily like who is my friend group,
but who is like my wider circle based on the
people that I've met in my unique life and I
know that I know I want to participate with and
I want to be able to rely on.
Speaker 5 (17:15):
Yeah yeah, giving support and then also receiving support.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Yeah, So how does one do that?
Speaker 3 (17:23):
What is like the if someone right now says I
don't feel that I really have strong community, or I
may not be an aligned community for who I am
right now or where I'm going, how does one even
begin to think about being in community?
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (17:40):
Honestly, there's so many.
Speaker 5 (17:42):
Paths to it, I would say in terms of aligned community,
which I think a lot of folks over the past
five years have realized, like, ooh, the community spaces I'm
a part of casually the chosen community spaces I actually
don't resonate with, especially as things like political things come
(18:02):
up the world as we see it, we're realizing things.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
Personal healing, healer growth.
Speaker 5 (18:10):
Yeah, like what as those things come up, it's really
just understanding that. And this sounds so cheesy, right, but
like there's certain communities for certain seasons, and you're things
are always changing, Like you don't always have to stay
in the same community for the rest of your life
in order to prove to yourself or to others that, like,
(18:34):
I know what community is. Communities are allowed to change
and grow as we change and grow. And it's again,
it's inevitable. At a certain point.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
I'm a scorporate rising, so I feel like everything's inevitable.
Speaker 5 (18:46):
So I'm just like bring it on, like things are.
There's always going to be a cycle. Things aren't always
going to stay the same, which is okay. That's like
the beauty of life. So if you need to realign
your community, I think it's taking the shame out of it.
Of like, now I realize that the space I'm in,
the community space i'm in, is it in alignment with
(19:08):
my mission, my values. That's okay. I can find a
space that is. Or sometimes it's not even that you
need to completely leave that community, right, Sometimes it's like
I need to bring things in, maybe I need to
speak up more. Maybe my role in the community has changed,
and that's actually the shift that I need to do.
So I think it's really understanding and seeing instead of
(19:30):
like completely dismissing things, either by ignoring it and then
just continuing on or just by leaving it.
Speaker 4 (19:38):
It's just really.
Speaker 5 (19:38):
Seeing number one, what is my role in this community
space is a way that I can need to contribute
or I'm being called to contribute differently, and then if
that's the if it feels like no, that's not the case,
maybe it is time that I realign with a different
community space, or I just like figure things out and
(20:00):
another way.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (20:01):
Yeah, so it's I find being in community spaces it's
like relationships. Honestly, the way that you're in a relationship,
whether it's friendship, romantic, whatever the case may be, it's
more more likely you're like than in a community space.
Speaker 4 (20:14):
It's just with like more people.
Speaker 5 (20:16):
So it's very reflective, like how you are with your
personal relationships reflect through it, just like that for larger
community spaces.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Yeah, that's so funny.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
That's when like in those spaces, that's when you really
get to see like the roles we each play or
think that we play, you know, because you take on
that that character or that role even bigger in big groups.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (20:41):
Yeah, Like if you're the eldest daughter in community spaces,
it's like eldest daughter times one hundred, and then you
burn out because you're exhausted, yeah, because it's so many
more people. So yeah, it's also realizing that. But as
you heal that and your personal relationships, you'll see how
you'll heal it in community spaces.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
Oh my god, thank you for saying that. That's a
big one, because I think even, yeah, the way we
relate to community changes so much over time based on
how much inner work you're doing on yourself.
Speaker 5 (21:11):
One hundred percent. Yeah, it's healing work. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
it ultimately did, because.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Even there's a lot of people who have i think,
pursued very isolated, individualistic lives, and when they start healing,
their capacity and their ability to tolerate the energies of
other people and not be triggered or not project onto
other people's certain identities because of unfinished business, and it
(21:38):
just opens up your world. Like the more inner healing.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
You do, your possibility for.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
The kinds of community you can be in and the
kinds of people you can be with changes exponentially.
Speaker 5 (21:50):
Oh yes, one hundred percent. That's why sometimes I think
it is good to be independent at times, right, Like,
sometimes we do need to be independent, but all so
find the balance of even if you can't be independent
letting other people support you.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Yeah, are you talking to me?
Speaker 5 (22:09):
I'm talking to myself honestly, anything I pose, I'm like
calling myself out.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Deeply.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
Well, it's so beautiful to just say it as it
is right and accept it and find what the path
is because I have been really gratefully and I think
that's that's what made me have like an instant admiration
respect for the work I saw from you, because it was.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Like, it's just really the way you.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
Express things is just so important and powerful and really useful,
like incredibly useful, like very I can apply this immediately practically,
you know.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
No, that's my goal.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
Yeah, And I feel that intentionality because it is it's
you can read it and say, oh, I can do
this today, or I can switch this thought.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
This can be a breakthrough thought.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Now.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
I've been having personally like a lot of fun creating
and redefining what community in my life looks like. And
I'm a profoundly independent person like also only child everyone
on the show knows that, and single mom, so profoundly
wired for independence, Like my favorite thing to do is
(23:26):
be alone with myself. And I'm also I'm a Jim
and I've always had a ton of friends, like a
ton of community and a lot of like just I
move through a lot of different kinds of worlds, and
so as I've been really thinking about community for myself
and my son the last couple of years, it's given
(23:46):
me a lot of like deep work to do and reckoning,
because you got to get really clear on your values,
on what matters to you, on what you know you're
willing to do long term, because like community isn't about like, yeah,
I'll dabble in this for like a week, this will
(24:07):
be my tribe for the next six months. It's like
when you want to do it well. And this is
what I'm learning, you're looking to really set the foundations
of like not only how can I build my community
and it thrive, but how can it like stand the
test of time and really grow across decades so that
(24:28):
all that we're investing into each other, the time, the care,
the shared values, we all get to reap from it
over time as we change and grow, you know, hopefully
into old age.
Speaker 4 (24:40):
Yeah, rooting back.
Speaker 5 (24:41):
That's why I learned from my parents, like they still
talk to people that they've known like forty fifty years
ago that they went to school with that, like they
could call them up and they're like in Swizzerland and
they're like.
Speaker 4 (24:54):
You could stay with me.
Speaker 6 (24:55):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (24:55):
And when I saw that, I was like, how do
you keep connected like that?
Speaker 6 (25:00):
Right?
Speaker 5 (25:01):
Especially in this day and age where there is an
excuse I hear from a lot of people of like, yeah,
like if it's not in front of me, I just forget.
I just don't buy that necessarily because my parents are
still connected to so many different community members that are
across oceans. So you really have to be intentional about it.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
And it's the lost art because what you're describing, it's
like that was the way to keep in touch. You
were making actual phone calls and you were writing letters,
you know, or you were like sustaining a knowing of
a person because we knew so many less people, you know.
I think now like our population as human beings has
(25:44):
doubled since nineteen eighty that's actually insane. Yeah, like four
point five billion to nine billion on the planet and
the span of like forty five years is insane. But
then also the advancements because I think for my generation
and for your generation, it's really.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
That wasn't fully.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
Taught to all of us, and it wasn't as much
a necessity because we were learning this brand new thing.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Which is how to actually reach out to all the world.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
Through social media, through the Internet, through and it's like
you really can't do both, Like you can't be pursuing
this like vast like surface level connection with everything and
root back and route deeply. Like I think this is
a pivotal moment where we have to choose. I know,
I want to choose community. I want to choose to
(26:40):
really learn it, to thrive in it, to give to it,
because I think for me, I've realized my whole adult
life was shaped without my consent to be all social
media and to be these kind of wider but not
deeper connections. So I think that is what a lot
of people are coming out of and saying, oh wait,
I have a choice. This is how we've all been
(27:03):
conditioned to be. And if you didn't have a strong
network of like family behind you, you're just like, yeah,
a thousand followers on social media. That means I have
a thousand friends, or I have a community because I
have millions of people that follow me or that I
interact with. But we're learning something that is not old
(27:25):
it was just a generation before us, but we're needing
to relearn it now.
Speaker 4 (27:31):
Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 5 (27:31):
We remember, Yeah, and we remember because I think a
lot of folks do have the capacity for it. But yeah,
it's the digital age is so interesting, and digital communities
can be really impactful as well. But I'm because I
primarily work with digital communities right now.
Speaker 4 (27:52):
It's using all the things.
Speaker 5 (27:53):
That in person communities, but just modifying it for the
digital space. So it has to be and it can
be surface level. But I think also right now, folks
are kind of like you mentioned earlier, folks have had
bad experiences in community spaces. They've been hurt in community
(28:14):
spaces or hurt by others, and so being surface level
kind of gives like the illusion of like, yeah, we're
in community, but I'm.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Protected, Like I don't have to get deep.
Speaker 4 (28:26):
I don't.
Speaker 5 (28:27):
I want the aesthetic of community and I want to say,
look at my community, but I actually don't want to
engage in like the emotional vulnerability that comes with community.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Let's talk about that, because I think you're hitting on
something so incredibly real for so many people listening, this
false idea of safety by surrounding yourself with people that
you don't know well but you feel connected to, and
especially if you've been following each other, you feel like
(29:01):
you've known each other over time, but not actually like
not actually in your real life in a way that's
like meaningful or useful to either.
Speaker 5 (29:11):
Yeah, because there's such a difference between an audience and
a community, and we'll see that a lot of folks
will speak to their audience and say we're a community
because you know these things about me, and then as
the audience member or the community member, you're like, yeah,
I am a part of your community because I know
your favorite color, and I know your dog's name, and
(29:33):
I know your favorite food. But in actuality, like you
don't know. And so that's when these get a little messy,
blurred lines like that parasocial dinamic. Yeah, and you feel
like you have this emotional connection an actuality, it's not
an in death emotional connection.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
And a lot of projection, a lot of projection and
outsourcing of feeling. Talk about that what you were saying
a minute ago.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
I think let's illustrate this.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
Even more, like this idea of having community but at
a safe distance, right where you're self protecting. I think
so many people do that and don't even know that's.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
What they're doing. Oh yeah, what is that? What's that dynamic?
How does that show up? What does it look like?
Speaker 5 (30:27):
I mean, I feel like it can look like, you know,
the surface level connections, like knowing specific things about community
members in a community space, but not having or not
investing in the relationships so that if something like a misunderstanding, misagreement,
(30:49):
or conflict happens, it could sustain that situation. That's kind
of when you could tell because it's so easy to
kick you with someone right, right.
Speaker 4 (30:59):
It's so easy to have the good time misery.
Speaker 5 (31:02):
Yeah, it's so easy to celebrate other people like their joy.
But if there's conflict that happens, or someone happens to
be depressed and they're not showing up as much, or
there's a misunderstanding, if you haven't invested in the relationship,
then it's actually hard to go over those hurdles with
(31:22):
each other.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (31:23):
So I think you know a lot of folks they
want to engage in like the feel good dope, mean
feeling conversations and interactions, but they don't really think about Okay,
how about when it doesn't feel good? Because it's inevitable
that's not going to feel good. We're human, We're not
always feeling good all the time. That would be that's
(31:44):
just what it makes sense. We're supposed to experience a
range of emotions. So as an individual, since I'm supposed
to experience a range of emotions, if I'm in community
with someone, I am going to expect that we are
also going to go through a range of emotion. Yeah,
I'm gonna witness you being happy, which is probably how
we're connect about. Also witness you being sad, angry. Confuse,
(32:08):
we might engage in a situation where there's a misunderstanding,
there's a conflict. If I find out a lot of
people get to that point and it's like gonna drop it.
I don't need to engage in this way. I don't
need to get hurt rather than working through it and
practicing that conflict resolution.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
Yeah, building skills and all of it requires practice.
Speaker 5 (32:34):
Yeah, it requires practice. We're not going to do it
perfectly for the first time, but if we don't do
it at all, then we'll never know how to do it.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
Yeah, Yeah, and that's why we can't pull away. Yeah,
we shouldn't pull outside of if you are in a
situation that is abusive, toxic.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Unhealthy, absolutely pull away.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
Yeah, But if it is friction, or if it's just
kind of like poke you and your identity and poking
you and your ego, it's like we have to build
our capacity to like stay in it and work through it.
Speaker 6 (33:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (33:08):
It's like that quote that I've been seeing on social media,
like the price of community is annoyance or irritation.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
It really is that.
Speaker 5 (33:18):
You're gonna get irritated. Like it's not always going to
be feel good. We're always on the same page. You
might not always even like the person in your community space,
but you might love them.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Yeah, just let's talk about that.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
Let's talk about that, because I think that is so
important and now more than ever, we should not be
throwing people away. You know, like we like, you don't
have to like someone all the time. We do that
all the time. We get through that regularly in our
lives when we have to. But then for some reason,
I think in community we can feel like I don't
(33:52):
like this about this person, or I don't like how
something came down, so now they are completely vilified or canceled,
or now they're my actual enemy or I'm going to
do whatever kind of things like ignore or talk about
or you know, reject.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
But what does that look like to be in community?
Speaker 3 (34:11):
Like when things aren't going your way or when you're
not always liking everyone you're surrounded by.
Speaker 5 (34:16):
Honestly, I think different. There's different experiences with this because
also in community spaces, some folks are used to being centered. Yeah,
so they probably have the most difficulty with that. If
you're constantly and consistently centered in community spaces, then when
there is something like that, you're probably resistant to working
(34:40):
through it. Versus someone who's usually not centered and kind
of decentered, you're kind of used to it. You're like, yeah,
I have to be a community with this person that
I probably don't like, but it's not like a harmful situation.
But yeah, I don't like them, but I'm not centered
in this situation. And I think a lot more people
need to decenter themselves and think about what is for
the good of the community.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (35:03):
Yeah, And I think about it because I have an
education background. I got my master's in special education. And
when like you're thinking about a classroom, right, not all
the kids are going to like each other very rarely, dude,
they all like each other. If there is harm, you're
going to disrupt the harm right and you're going to
(35:25):
do resolution within the harm. But even then, still you
might have folks not like each other or kids like
not like each other. But as a teacher, the most
important thing that I have for that classroom is for
it to be a safe classroom where the kids are
learning and they're all respectful to each other and they're
able to thrive. So I'm going to think about the
(35:46):
whole classroom and what's best for.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
The whole class Yeah.
Speaker 5 (35:50):
A kid might not like another kid, but that's not
like my main concern. As long as they both feel
like they belong and they're able to thrive. They don't
have to both like each other to feel those things
because I have to take in consideration the whole classroom. Now,
everything that I'm talking about with that, adults need that too.
We've just kind of discarded at need as an adults.
(36:12):
As soon as you turn eighteen, folks are like, we
don't care about that, But it's just as important to
feel that sense of belonging. You don't have to like
everyone in your community space. You just need the share
values you need that respect and you need to think
about the community as a whole.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
That is such an incredible example, that classroom example that.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
I think shines.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
Through like so brightly because it especially for anyone that
if you remember your youth enough, or if you're a teacher,
but definitely like as a parent now of an elementary
age kid, it's like, yeah, like sometimes the kids are
in conflict and they don't like each other, their identities
are shifting, emotions are high, but there is this shared belonging.
(37:00):
There's this shared belief. No one or couple of people
feel completely ostracized. Like everyone has the space to be
in their personhood and yeah, you can just okay, well
I know those two don't like each other, so I'll
put one on this side, one on this side. Yeah,
they don't hate each other. It's not a battle. They're
not causing harm to each other. There's no need to
(37:23):
like create real divide. It's just I can trust that
you'll find things to do over here.
Speaker 5 (37:30):
Yeah, and striving to be equitable. Right, like driving again,
but putting one on the one side and then one
on the other, versus like putting one in the hallway.
That's when like one is getting centered over the other end.
Of course, you're not going to feel like a sense
of belonging. So just because someone doesn't like someone else
doesn't mean they have to ostracize them the gimunity spaces, right,
(37:51):
It just means that maybe you have to go in
different spaces, different niches within the community space. And I
think sometimes we confuse I like, just did I've been
thinking about this a lot recently, but we can kind
of confuse like punishing people in terms of like, oh,
I'm just I'm protecting my piece and I'm protecting the
(38:12):
community speace piece. But honestly, we end up just punishing
others when we don't like them or we feel like
there's a misunderstanding or something's uncomfortable. So I always just
say like, yeah, really, center like the community, not the individuals.
The individuals make up the community. You would not have
the community without the individuals, so their safety should be
(38:33):
in consideration.
Speaker 6 (38:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Ah, that's so important to hear. That is so important
to hear.
Speaker 3 (38:39):
I want to read a couple of your posts that
I've saved that I really loved.
Speaker 4 (38:46):
Oh yeah, I'm so curious.
Speaker 3 (38:48):
I mean there were so many and I was going
through like I have. I am like such a natural
pinterester even without like doing too much on there. But like,
you know how, on the back of your Instagram you
can save all these different files, like you can have categories.
Speaker 4 (39:04):
I didn't know that.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
What Oh my god, what, oh my god.
Speaker 3 (39:10):
I mean I have like one hundred and five folders
back there, honestly.
Speaker 4 (39:14):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
So I'll actually show you as I'm finding you. So
if you go into your saved on the back end,
you can create all these different like categories that you
save stuff in.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
Oh yeah, see, okay, I have like a ton of different.
Speaker 5 (39:29):
Yeah, because I have been saving, but I don't know
where they've been going.
Speaker 3 (39:32):
So you can categorize them or just go in the
back end and see all of them at once. So
I've saved yours and a bunch of different folders, but
I pulled some.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
Today that I was like, oh, I love this.
Speaker 3 (39:43):
So one of the ones that I'm going to read
and everyone her Instagram is nike Oria and I K
E A U R e A. It'll be linked in
the show notes of this episode. You can get it easily.
But one of the posts you put up said when
people say they want accountability in community spaces, What do
(40:03):
they actually mean? Because sometimes what people call accountability is
actually punishment. In community spaces, we often pursue punishment or
being punished instead of accountability because of how we've been
socialized to respond to harm. Accountability includes consequences, but not
(40:26):
all consequences are punishment. Punishment focuses on blame, It isolates
shames and instantly ends connection. Consequence is different. It's about
the natural outcomes of choices and actions. Consequence can sound
like I no longer feel safe collaborating right now, or
(40:50):
this behavior doesn't align with our agreements, And then you
have repair, which asks how can trust be rebuilt within
this situation or what are the best next steps with
everyone and the community and consideration. Accountability isn't punishment. It's
an invitation to take responsibility and reflect on your actions
(41:14):
and how they impact others. Accountability is care and practice.
It centers curiosity, integrity, and repair.
Speaker 4 (41:23):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
I mean that's a really big teaching that you.
Speaker 3 (41:27):
Offered in twenty slides, you know, like that's a really
fundamentally like this is so foundational for so many people.
And I think, and I'm not saying this with any judgment,
there are things we all may have known that society
(41:49):
may have pushed you away from in the last decade
based on how society on the bigger stage has been
moving through what accountability and consequence does and doesn't look like.
I think that's always kind of what's happening in the
world in the zeitgeist. But when we talk about that's
such a profound difference that people don't get punishment versus accountability. Yeah,
(42:12):
you expressed it, I mean really powerfully there. But what
were what was some of your background inspiration for creating
that teaching and understanding in that.
Speaker 5 (42:22):
Honestly, I'm a reality reality TV connoisseurs or watch a
lot of TV and a trend I've noticed with reality
TV because I watch it because the human behavior is
so interesting and community spaces on the reality TV. But
the inspiration was really hearing accountability over the last two
(42:45):
years being talked about on reality TV shows, like folks
saying I'm taking accountability and them not taking accountability, just
saying they're taking out accountability not practicing it.
Speaker 3 (42:56):
You know, people have different definitions for all the same
words that use this.
Speaker 5 (43:00):
Yeah, so wild, which is so important to define your
words because folks will just make up their own interpretations.
But also the flip side of that is people demanding
other folks to take accountability when really they just mean
I want to punish you, because you can't make someone
take accountability. It's something that the person needs to want
(43:23):
to do. So it really came from that, like folks
wanting to take accountability but maybe not knowing how to
practice doing that. But then also the reverse of like
folks telling other people to take accountability when really just
mean you hurt me, I want you to feel punished.
I'm going to use accountability because it sounds nicer. Yeah,
(43:46):
but I think you know, accountability again, is practice. We
have to practice doing it. It's a reflective practice, and
it's also something that has to come from you actually
wanting to do it, Like you can't fake accountability otherwise
that's not aut ability, that's.
Speaker 4 (44:00):
Just saying sorry.
Speaker 5 (44:03):
And then I do have a client who's so great
at what they do what they do somatic work, where
they said, because I found out a lot of folks
in community spaces, the thing that they're fearful of is
giving folks chances after chance after chance and still getting hurt.
And something that they said was folks, pretending to take
(44:25):
accountability or apologizing with no change behavior is just manipulation. Yes,
so you will. You can't force someone to take accountability.
You can't force them to genuinely apologize and then practice
those things. But I feel like folks feel like they can.
(44:47):
But really what they're just looking for is to punish
others for the harm that they felt.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
How does someone begin to take accountability.
Speaker 5 (44:55):
I think it starts by reflecting on your actions and
actually acknowledging or deciding for yourself. Actually not acknowledging, deciding
for yourself if you if you want to acknowledge the
impact that you may have had on someone else. And
(45:17):
we might think, oh, that person should take accountability, but
it really has to be something that comes from or within.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
That's the only way behavior changes.
Speaker 5 (45:26):
Yeah, that's only way behavior changes. And I'm no longer
interested in being community spaces with folks who know what
to say, but there don't know what to do.
Speaker 4 (45:40):
It's easy to know what to say.
Speaker 3 (45:42):
I mean, I'm eighty percent of people that I see
on social media giving advice do not live.
Speaker 4 (45:50):
All the things that they say, yes.
Speaker 3 (45:53):
And behave completely different Like sometimes you're like, did you
read the book you wrote, because you have some great
tips and examples inside that book, but I don't see
you practicing this.
Speaker 5 (46:04):
Yeah, the number one thing I tell folks when, like,
when I work with folks with like community engagement, like
they want to see their community be more engage, I
say that you have to show them how you want
them to engage. You can't just tell folks like I
want this, this is what I want my community space
to be like, and I'm hosting the space or I'm
the leader of the space, and then you're not doing
(46:24):
any of those things.
Speaker 4 (46:25):
If you want more folks to.
Speaker 5 (46:28):
Comment on your post, maybe you should comment on a
couple of posts, right. If you want more folks to
have conversations without shame and guilt, you should have conversations
without shame and guilt. It's really hard to attract the
community you want if you're not in practice with those
values that you say you want to share with them deeply.
Speaker 3 (46:53):
Well, I want to read another post that you have.
Speaker 1 (46:59):
I have to more actually that.
Speaker 3 (47:00):
I want to read because I just think they're amazing.
Another one says old Wounds and New Spaces why past
harm can shape how we show up in community. Sometimes
we carry old wounds into new spaces, even when the
space hasn't harmed us. It can look like assuming you'll
be left out before it happens, expecting conflict where there
(47:22):
isn't any, seeing feedback as attack, or with drawing to
protect yourself, testing the space to see if it will
hurt you, sabotaging your own belonging. Creating or joining new
communities doesn't erase past experiences, but it can create new
opportunities and experiences in the present. A community supports healing
(47:46):
when it is clear about what it expects, when it
names harm instead of letting it slide, and when it
chooses repair over avoidance. But it's also important that we
reflect as members, share our needs and give things a chance.
We support healing when we name our needs, pause before
assuming the worst, and allow care to reach us even
(48:09):
when it feels unfamiliar. Old wounds do not heal overnight,
but with practice, community can become a place where we
learn that belonging in care are possible again in the
aligned spaces.
Speaker 5 (48:22):
Wow yeah, no yeah projection. I always feel so bad
when I see someone project their pass and kind of
self sabotage and new communities things yeah, and I've seen
it so many times when a part of community is
I've been or I've helped manage or consult on because
(48:43):
it's really just coming from hurt and womb. But I
think also knowing that you may project things can help
you work through them. So really my intention with that
post is like reminding folks that you know you won't
be perfect, like it's inevitable that you might project something
(49:04):
old into something new, but also being gentle with yourself
and honest with yourself that when you might be doing
that and actually self sabotaging.
Speaker 3 (49:16):
For people that would consider themselves maybe empathic previously people pleasers, caretakers, overgivers.
Give me some explanation to this, and I'm just going
to read the first slide. Community care is in everyone
doing everything, it's everyone doing something. Sometimes there's a fear
(49:36):
of being in community after you've done your healing work
because you don't want to take care of everyone, or
you don't want to feel like you're the one that's
going to show up and now take on a whole load.
So like what does that look like? Like how do
you how do you give what you have? How do
you show up in reciprocity? But also not lose yourself
(49:58):
and overgiving and community.
Speaker 5 (50:00):
I think it's really being honest with yourself and others
about your capacity. And sometimes capacity doesn't mean like everything
that you have to give you could still you get
to determine your capacity, Like I might have high capacity
for something, but maybe I don't want to give high capacity.
I want to give medium capacity. And I need to
be honest with myself and my community members.
Speaker 4 (50:24):
If that's the case.
Speaker 5 (50:25):
So I think a part of community work too, and
even that post is boundaries, to holding to our boundaries
but also being clear about our boundaries and sharing it.
And I found that a lot of people, especially align
community spaces, they'll be receptive to that and they'll be understanding.
Sometimes you just kind of have to state it and
(50:45):
remind folks of your capacity. Yeah, and then holding to
those boundaries.
Speaker 4 (50:50):
It's so easy.
Speaker 5 (50:51):
I actually I had a conversation with someone a couple
months ago that I'm just going to hold onto for
a while, because they were talking about how they in
the community spaces, they're in their relationships that they're in.
Usually when they say no to something, the person keeps asking, asking, asking,
(51:14):
and they just give in right and They're like, it's
just easier to give in instead of saying no. So
many times, like, I feel uncomfortable saying no. And I
told them, I said you, they should feel uncomfortable for
continuously asking you. You shouldn't fee uncomfortable for saying no.
But inevitably you might feel uncomfortable.
Speaker 6 (51:36):
Right.
Speaker 4 (51:36):
So the thing is folks are going to ask.
Speaker 2 (51:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (51:40):
Certain people have been socialized to understand the more that
they ask and the more that they push others, that
they will get what they want. I made a commitment
to myself to no longer betray myself in the name
of someone else. And that also means when it comes
(52:01):
to my boundaries and capacity. Again, it's not easy. It's
actually quite difficult, and again you might feel bad about it. However,
I find if you could just route back to I
need to take care of my own self and my
well being and I have named my capacity.
Speaker 1 (52:21):
Yeah, and I've.
Speaker 5 (52:23):
Been honest about it too, and I've been clear about it.
If someone is continuously walking over that, that means they
don't have the same shared values and they're not meant
to be in your community space.
Speaker 1 (52:33):
So good, Yeah, yeah, so good.
Speaker 3 (52:37):
And I think too, and that's where we all to
do this well together.
Speaker 1 (52:43):
That's where we all have to land.
Speaker 3 (52:45):
Is also that community is us practicing being who we
say we are.
Speaker 4 (52:50):
Yeah, you know, it.
Speaker 3 (52:51):
Really is, like it's so important to come out of
isolation and be in practice with relationship, you know. And
we're not going to do it perfectly, and we're not
going to get it right all of the time. And
sometimes you're going to make yourself cringe. Sometimes you're going
to notice what your own limitations are. Either way, it's
(53:14):
just helping you can continue to refine who and what
you are, what your values are, what you allow and
like what you give you know, how you're in reciprocity
with the rest of the world as well.
Speaker 5 (53:28):
And being open to maybe acknowledging when you aren't when
when you when you're not practicing who you say, Like
when you do get that feedback and folks are saying, actually,
you think you're coming across this way, but you're actually
not in saying, oh, maybe this is the time to
self reflect, and I think it is knowing yourself deeply
(53:51):
as well. Right, But again, sometimes we change and we
don't even realize how we change, and we have other
people reflect it back to us and being that's the
the beauty of community, as well as being able to
do that not always having to rely on ourselves for
our perception of self.
Speaker 2 (54:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:10):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (54:11):
Not always relying on yourself for your perception of self. Wow,
I love that so much. I would love to take
this moment. At the end of every episode, I invite
each guest to give what we like to call soul work,
so it is an opportunity to do something that helps
to further integrate all the thoughts that were explored in
(54:34):
this episode. Can look like a practice, it can be
a prompt, it can be a quote that anything uniquely
from you to be soul work for this episode.
Speaker 5 (54:44):
Honestly, I feel like my lifetime soul work is unlearning perfectionism.
So I would always encourage everyone to navigate their relationship
with perfectionism. Get to know the relationship, get into I
met with perfectionism and what means to you and why,
as a human being, you don't need to be perfect.
Speaker 4 (55:07):
It's not your job.
Speaker 5 (55:09):
And in fact, your messy human self is what we
need more of to practice being who we authentically are.
Speaker 2 (55:22):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (55:24):
Nike, thank you so much for joining on this episode.
Just so much love to you and your path. I
know your work is going to continue to explode and
inform and help and teach so many of us. Thank
you for doing what you are doing. And just please girl,
keep going, keep going. We need you, We need everything
(55:46):
that you uniquely bring to this planet right now.
Speaker 4 (55:49):
Thank you for joining We thank you so much for
having me.
Speaker 1 (55:53):
Honored join us.
Speaker 3 (55:55):
Next episode we'll be back, rate and review this episode.
Share with a friend, really, share this episode with another
person that could benefit from it, that you could talk
to about it, that you can expand this dialogue, because
we all have to have to have to come into
(56:17):
healthier community with each other. We all deserve it, but
we all need it to So catch you next week.
No I'm mistays. The content presented on Deeply Wells serves
solely for educational and informational purposes. It should not be
considered a replacement for personalized medical or mental health guidance
(56:40):
and does not constitute a provider patient relationship. As always,
it is advisable to consult with your healthcare provider or
health team for any specific concerns or questions that you
may have. Connect with me on social at Debbie Brown
that's Twitter and Instagram, or you can go to my website,
Debbie Brown dot com.
Speaker 1 (57:02):
And if you're listening to the.
Speaker 3 (57:03):
Show on Apple Podcasts, don't forget. Please rate, review, and
subscribe and send this episode to a friend.
Speaker 1 (57:10):
Deeply Well is a.
Speaker 3 (57:11):
Production of iHeartRadio and The Black Effect Network. It's produced
by Jacqueise Thomas, Samantha Timmins, and me Debbie Brown. The
Beautiful Soundbath You heard That's by Jarrelen Glass from Crystal Cadence.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Speaker 6 (58:00):
M
Take a deep breath in through your nose. Holds it.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Now, release slowly again, deep in, helle.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Hold release, repeating internally to yourself as you connect to
my voice. I am deeply well. I am deeply well.
(01:22):
I am deeply I'm Debbie Brown and this is the
Deeply Well Podcast. Welcome to Deeply Well, a soft place
(01:56):
to land in your journey. A podcast for those that
are curious, creative, and ready to expand in higher consciousness
and self care. This is where we heal, this is
where we transcend. Welcome back everyone, of course, I'm Debbie Brown.
This is deeply Well and something that we have been
(02:18):
exploring for quite a few episodes this season. Is this
idea of coming out of our internal worlds and coming
back into community and what does community look feel like?
Speaker 1 (02:34):
What could it be? What has it been?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
This is a moment in time where we should be
thinking about this always. We should be talking about this.
We should be really developing and understanding what our connection
to community is, what our philosophy of it is, and
how to really build it out. And the time is now,
(02:59):
this is the need. So we've been diving into that
and today we are going to really really go deep
with it. I am thrilled for this episode. We are
going to discuss what it means to lead with care
and to create spaces where everyone feels seen and supported,
and we're all doing our own work as we're doing
collective work. On this episode, I'm really excited to share
(03:23):
a brand new guest who I have just recently become
such an absolute fan of her work and such an admirer,
Nike Aria. Nike Aria is an inclusion consultant, educator and
host of the Catalyst podcast. Through her work, she helps leaders, educators,
and entrepreneurs design intentional and sustainable communities that feel safe, aligned,
(03:49):
and rooted in care without the pressure of perfection or performance.
With the background in education and strategy, Nike Bridge is
the gap between intention and action by guiding teams, programs,
and digital spaces to create structures that support collective care, accountability,
(04:11):
and long term sustainability. Her approach is practical, values led
and deeply grounded in building communities where everyone feels seen
and supported.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Nike Welcome to the show.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
Thank you for having me girl.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
I'm excited, So I'll tell you a little bit of
my background of your work. So one, you know, just
being in this space and really watching this space, I
mean profoundly grow over the last fifteen years. I am
always looking for really the nuanial ways that the industry
(04:52):
is changing, but more so that the consciousness of humanity
is changing and where it's going. And so we just
got out of this very necessary kind of incubation of inner.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Work the last half a decade, right. We needed to
be there.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
We needed the isolation in my belief and my philosophy
of the pandemic. We needed the isolation of ourselves. We
needed to rip ourselves out of groups because a lot
of I felt the way that we were in groups
was dysfunctional and toxic and selfish and not rooted in
(05:30):
anything real for a long time, and so so many
of us, by the millions, were ripped out of those worlds,
in those spaces and called to go inward, and called
to be hermit, and called to get a little selfish
and get a little individualistic. But nothing is forever. It's
all cyclical. We needed that for what we needed it for.
(05:54):
And now it's time to kind of tie that in
a bow and integrate it and get back into the
world world and do the work of each other, do
the work of community, do the work of building, and so,
as fate would have it, you crossed my digital path,
and one day on my Explorer page.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
I saw a post that you had put up about.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
Community, and I thought, wow, this is a really powerful thought.
I'm so glad that this is being said aloud, and
I'm so glad that this is being created into something
that we don't even know yet. So I clicked on
that post, I read it. I was really inspired by it,
and then I kind of took in all of the
(06:38):
ways that you share your work after that, and I
spent time with it. The last couple of months, I've
been checking in on you, and I've been like, Wow,
this is powerful, powerful, powerful, And I think the way
that you share your philosophy and your depth of understanding
around something that the vast majority of the world has
(07:01):
little to absolutely no practicing, I think it's really incredible,
and I think it's very divinely timed and aligned.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
So thank you for your work. I'm so glad you're
doing it.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
Oh, thank you so much.
Speaker 5 (07:13):
Yeah, I'm so glad that people are resonating with it,
especially after talking about it for so long and feeling
like nobody's seeing it.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
But girl, it takes time sometimes.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
That is we have explored that on this show. Is
that is the sometimes the bane of my life. You know,
you see something so clearly and you get it, and
then life in the world and humanity has to catch up.
A few developmental things have to happen, some shifts have
to happen.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Before they're ready for what the work of your life is.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
So, you know what I would really love to start in,
let's anchor this conversation first in.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
You're in so community.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Community is as a does antiquity, It's as old as
the beginning of human time, right, but the need for it,
the way we craft it now, I think is probably
more dimensional than it's ever been, more necessary than it's
ever been. So how did this community become the work
(08:20):
of your life? And how did you know that this
was your path and your unique perspective.
Speaker 5 (08:27):
Yeah, that's such a great, great question, I think. So,
I my parents are immigrants, They're from West Africa, where
community is really really important. But my family, like my
parents and my sister and I are the only family
in these states, so we had to be close knit.
(08:50):
But also my parents, who raised my sister to be
very independent with the values of community, right, so like
always rooting back home. We would go visit family every
summer extensively, we would always talk on the phone. When
webcam became a thing, we would always webcam with our
(09:12):
family and an extension of family, right like friends that
became family.
Speaker 4 (09:17):
So I always knew the.
Speaker 5 (09:18):
Importance of community and having somewhere to root back to,
even though it wasn't always there, like in the day
to day. But because it wasn't always there in the
day to day, I found myself like really craving that
and knowing that that is something that I wanted to create,
especially the older that I got. So I think that's
(09:38):
really what kind of shaped my understanding of community in
terms of knowing those values and seeing how even with
distance you could still have strong community bases. But when
there is distance, how can we create or be a
part of spaces so we can root back to those
communities because we do need it in our day to
day even if there's other stric constances that don't allow
(10:01):
us to have it.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
When I tell you, like, I have so many paths
I want to take this journey of a conversation on that,
I'm like, where do I begin and how do I start,
because yeah, oh.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
It's such a layered it's so laired to even think about.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Because I think we all have different definitions of what
community is and also have sometimes traumatizing experiences in community
and sometimes don't feel that we have enough to offer
community or enough to give communities. So what in your definition,
like what is healthy community? What is the community ecosystem?
(10:43):
What does that word mean?
Speaker 4 (10:45):
Well to me?
Speaker 5 (10:46):
Communities when you have shared values and you have a
shared mission, and that is so broad, right, Like I
like to say, it can be anyway or from like
a book club to like your corporate workplace. It really
can be a spectrum. It could be something that is
something you're getting paid for in the workplace, to like
something you're just wanting to do and seek out. But
(11:08):
I think healthier communities have shared values and shared mission.
So you're going to that place or that space because
you want to do you have a certain goal or intention.
But also everyone in that space has the same values
that are named too, because a lot of times we
can think that we have the same values, but no
(11:28):
one's naming it. And then something happens and then you realize, actually,
we don't have the same values at all. So I
always say that's the basis of community spaces, right, shared mission,
shared value, and then other things can come through depending
on what niche the communities in, how you want the
(11:48):
community to be, what you need from that community, and
also what capacity you have to give to community, because
a lot of times I think we also don't. We
don't realize that we have to take in consideration in
our own capacity when it comes to participating and contributing
to community spaces. A lot of times I see folks
say I want a community, and it's like great, but
(12:11):
what do you want to give.
Speaker 4 (12:13):
To a community?
Speaker 5 (12:13):
Because you want a community, but then if you have
little to give to it, it's not an aligned community.
Speaker 4 (12:22):
You're ready starting from like off place.
Speaker 5 (12:27):
So yeah, shared mission, shared value, and then after you
have that, that's when you can add other things and
really make it like a groovy, safe, beautiful space.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Yeah. Okay, this is also.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Giving me language and letting me know.
Speaker 6 (12:46):
That for.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
The possibility and use of this episode, maybe I should
clarify what communities I want to talk about. Oh yeah, yes,
because I'm thinking right now, like as you're saying that,
I'm like, yeah, we got because we like, a single
person can be a part of so many different communities
at the same time, and they could be filling different needs.
(13:09):
You have workplace community, you have hobby community like book
club or things. You have family community or second family,
desired family, creative family type of community. You have cultural community.
You know, if you're a parent, you have your school community.
Like there are so many communities, which also shows like
(13:29):
how many values one can hold, right exactly, yeah, yeah,
and how many intersect and they intersect, and that also
sometimes can be so different because I can have shared
values with one community in this community and also have
values that might conflict with that community in another community.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
Exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
No, wonder we're all so confused about how to be
a healthy community.
Speaker 4 (13:55):
No, Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 5 (13:56):
And that's why sometimes when folks say, like, oh, I
don't have a community, I'm like, you don't community. You're
just not realizing, like your neighborhood is your community. Yeah,
Now it depends how involved you're in it or not,
but still to the core of it, you are part
of that cam. Yeah, your workplace is your community. Your
tennis club is your community. You going to your local
(14:18):
rec center is your community.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
If you're in a sorority or a fraternity. Also, there's
the difference between what is paid community, like you're pain
to be a part of this community, so you're in
the community with other people that are paying to be
a part of it. There's online community, and then there's
like yeah those kind of like there's the community that
(14:43):
you could pay to participate in in different ways, like
you know, like a league or some kind of a sporting.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Community, and wow.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
Yeah, yeah, it's kind of endless, which is interesting because
I think, yeah, we should be aware of that because
every anything we're walking into with more than ourselves as
being in community exactly.
Speaker 5 (15:04):
Yeah, which is why we should practice it, because it's
anotherable that we are going to encounter community spaces.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
I think, for like for the for kind of the
use of illustrating and teaching in this episode, I think
where I'd love to land is sitting in the idea
of maybe community as what we're building as like support
and resource and more than likely in a free dynamic
(15:33):
like the creation of groups of people that you interact
with maybe really regularly where you're relying on each other for.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
Kind of more of an intimate way. Maybe, yeah, like
chosen community.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
Yeah, like chosen community. Like when we think of that
term like build your tribe or do you have a
tribe who's a part of that?
Speaker 1 (15:56):
What would that look like? Like what do we call that?
Speaker 5 (15:59):
Yeah, I think it's just like chosen community space and
it could be digital, it could be in person, it
could still get complex, but yeah, chosen community where it's
like again, I think you still have shared values and
shared mission right, like the mission might it's with missions
sometimes they find that Folks think it has to be
an official thing, like we are striving to do this,
(16:20):
this and this, but shared mission can literally just be
we just want to have fun. Yeah, we're all agreeing
to have fun together.
Speaker 6 (16:29):
There's turn up community, yeah exactly, and then the values
that go with that, like what does the fun mean
to each and every one of us because we all
have different definitions of fun.
Speaker 5 (16:40):
But yeah, I would say that's called like chosen community
with the shared mission and values.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
And I think right now, when I see a lot
of people talking about it, at least you know the
view I have from my algorithm on social it's really
it's people looking to create. Yeah, just who is who
is my circle?
Speaker 6 (17:01):
Right?
Speaker 3 (17:02):
And not even necessarily like who is my friend group,
but who is like my wider circle based on the
people that I've met in my unique life and I
know that I know I want to participate with and
I want to be able to rely on.
Speaker 5 (17:15):
Yeah yeah, giving support and then also receiving support.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Yeah, So how does one do that?
Speaker 3 (17:23):
What is like the if someone right now says I
don't feel that I really have strong community, or I
may not be an aligned community for who I am
right now or where I'm going, how does one even
begin to think about being in community?
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (17:40):
Honestly, there's so many.
Speaker 5 (17:42):
Paths to it, I would say in terms of aligned community,
which I think a lot of folks over the past
five years have realized, like, ooh, the community spaces I'm
a part of casually the chosen community spaces I actually
don't resonate with, especially as things like political things come
(18:02):
up the world as we see it, we're realizing things.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
Personal healing, healer growth.
Speaker 5 (18:10):
Yeah, like what as those things come up, it's really
just understanding that. And this sounds so cheesy, right, but
like there's certain communities for certain seasons, and you're things
are always changing, Like you don't always have to stay
in the same community for the rest of your life
in order to prove to yourself or to others that, like,
(18:34):
I know what community is. Communities are allowed to change
and grow as we change and grow. And it's again,
it's inevitable. At a certain point.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
I'm a scorporate rising, so I feel like everything's inevitable.
Speaker 5 (18:46):
So I'm just like bring it on, like things are.
There's always going to be a cycle. Things aren't always
going to stay the same, which is okay. That's like
the beauty of life. So if you need to realign
your community, I think it's taking the shame out of it.
Of like, now I realize that the space I'm in,
the community space i'm in, is it in alignment with
(19:08):
my mission, my values. That's okay. I can find a
space that is. Or sometimes it's not even that you
need to completely leave that community, right, Sometimes it's like
I need to bring things in, maybe I need to
speak up more. Maybe my role in the community has changed,
and that's actually the shift that I need to do.
So I think it's really understanding and seeing instead of
(19:30):
like completely dismissing things, either by ignoring it and then
just continuing on or just by leaving it.
Speaker 4 (19:38):
It's just really.
Speaker 5 (19:38):
Seeing number one, what is my role in this community
space is a way that I can need to contribute
or I'm being called to contribute differently, and then if
that's the if it feels like no, that's not the case,
maybe it is time that I realign with a different
community space, or I just like figure things out and
(20:00):
another way.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (20:01):
Yeah, so it's I find being in community spaces it's
like relationships. Honestly, the way that you're in a relationship,
whether it's friendship, romantic, whatever the case may be, it's
more more likely you're like than in a community space.
Speaker 4 (20:14):
It's just with like more people.
Speaker 5 (20:16):
So it's very reflective, like how you are with your
personal relationships reflect through it, just like that for larger
community spaces.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Yeah, that's so funny.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
That's when like in those spaces, that's when you really
get to see like the roles we each play or
think that we play, you know, because you take on
that that character or that role even bigger in big groups.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (20:41):
Yeah, Like if you're the eldest daughter in community spaces,
it's like eldest daughter times one hundred, and then you
burn out because you're exhausted, yeah, because it's so many
more people. So yeah, it's also realizing that. But as
you heal that and your personal relationships, you'll see how
you'll heal it in community spaces.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
Oh my god, thank you for saying that. That's a
big one, because I think even, yeah, the way we
relate to community changes so much over time based on
how much inner work you're doing on yourself.
Speaker 5 (21:11):
One hundred percent. Yeah, it's healing work. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
it ultimately did, because.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Even there's a lot of people who have i think,
pursued very isolated, individualistic lives, and when they start healing,
their capacity and their ability to tolerate the energies of
other people and not be triggered or not project onto
other people's certain identities because of unfinished business, and it
(21:38):
just opens up your world. Like the more inner healing.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
You do, your possibility for.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
The kinds of community you can be in and the
kinds of people you can be with changes exponentially.
Speaker 5 (21:50):
Oh yes, one hundred percent. That's why sometimes I think
it is good to be independent at times, right, Like,
sometimes we do need to be independent, but all so
find the balance of even if you can't be independent
letting other people support you.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Yeah, are you talking to me?
Speaker 5 (22:09):
I'm talking to myself honestly, anything I pose, I'm like
calling myself out.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Deeply.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
Well, it's so beautiful to just say it as it
is right and accept it and find what the path
is because I have been really gratefully and I think
that's that's what made me have like an instant admiration
respect for the work I saw from you, because it was.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Like, it's just really the way you.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
Express things is just so important and powerful and really useful,
like incredibly useful, like very I can apply this immediately practically,
you know.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
No, that's my goal.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
Yeah, And I feel that intentionality because it is it's
you can read it and say, oh, I can do
this today, or I can switch this thought.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
This can be a breakthrough thought.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Now.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
I've been having personally like a lot of fun creating
and redefining what community in my life looks like. And
I'm a profoundly independent person like also only child everyone
on the show knows that, and single mom, so profoundly
wired for independence, Like my favorite thing to do is
(23:26):
be alone with myself. And I'm also I'm a Jim
and I've always had a ton of friends, like a
ton of community and a lot of like just I
move through a lot of different kinds of worlds, and
so as I've been really thinking about community for myself
and my son the last couple of years, it's given
(23:46):
me a lot of like deep work to do and reckoning,
because you got to get really clear on your values,
on what matters to you, on what you know you're
willing to do long term, because like community isn't about like, yeah,
I'll dabble in this for like a week, this will
(24:07):
be my tribe for the next six months. It's like
when you want to do it well. And this is
what I'm learning, you're looking to really set the foundations
of like not only how can I build my community
and it thrive, but how can it like stand the
test of time and really grow across decades so that
(24:28):
all that we're investing into each other, the time, the care,
the shared values, we all get to reap from it
over time as we change and grow, you know, hopefully
into old age.
Speaker 4 (24:40):
Yeah, rooting back.
Speaker 5 (24:41):
That's why I learned from my parents, like they still
talk to people that they've known like forty fifty years
ago that they went to school with that, like they
could call them up and they're like in Swizzerland and
they're like.
Speaker 4 (24:54):
You could stay with me.
Speaker 6 (24:55):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (24:55):
And when I saw that, I was like, how do
you keep connected like that?
Speaker 6 (25:00):
Right?
Speaker 5 (25:01):
Especially in this day and age where there is an
excuse I hear from a lot of people of like, yeah,
like if it's not in front of me, I just forget.
I just don't buy that necessarily because my parents are
still connected to so many different community members that are
across oceans. So you really have to be intentional about it.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
And it's the lost art because what you're describing, it's
like that was the way to keep in touch. You
were making actual phone calls and you were writing letters,
you know, or you were like sustaining a knowing of
a person because we knew so many less people, you know.
I think now like our population as human beings has
(25:44):
doubled since nineteen eighty that's actually insane. Yeah, like four
point five billion to nine billion on the planet and
the span of like forty five years is insane. But
then also the advancements because I think for my generation
and for your generation, it's really.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
That wasn't fully.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
Taught to all of us, and it wasn't as much
a necessity because we were learning this brand new thing.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Which is how to actually reach out to all the world.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
Through social media, through the Internet, through and it's like
you really can't do both, Like you can't be pursuing
this like vast like surface level connection with everything and
root back and route deeply. Like I think this is
a pivotal moment where we have to choose. I know,
I want to choose community. I want to choose to
(26:40):
really learn it, to thrive in it, to give to it,
because I think for me, I've realized my whole adult
life was shaped without my consent to be all social
media and to be these kind of wider but not
deeper connections. So I think that is what a lot
of people are coming out of and saying, oh wait,
I have a choice. This is how we've all been
(27:03):
conditioned to be. And if you didn't have a strong
network of like family behind you, you're just like, yeah,
a thousand followers on social media. That means I have
a thousand friends, or I have a community because I
have millions of people that follow me or that I
interact with. But we're learning something that is not old
(27:25):
it was just a generation before us, but we're needing
to relearn it now.
Speaker 4 (27:31):
Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 5 (27:31):
We remember, Yeah, and we remember because I think a
lot of folks do have the capacity for it. But yeah,
it's the digital age is so interesting, and digital communities
can be really impactful as well. But I'm because I
primarily work with digital communities right now.
Speaker 4 (27:52):
It's using all the things.
Speaker 5 (27:53):
That in person communities, but just modifying it for the
digital space. So it has to be and it can
be surface level. But I think also right now, folks
are kind of like you mentioned earlier, folks have had
bad experiences in community spaces. They've been hurt in community
(28:14):
spaces or hurt by others, and so being surface level
kind of gives like the illusion of like, yeah, we're
in community, but I'm.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Protected, Like I don't have to get deep.
Speaker 4 (28:26):
I don't.
Speaker 5 (28:27):
I want the aesthetic of community and I want to say,
look at my community, but I actually don't want to
engage in like the emotional vulnerability that comes with community.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Let's talk about that, because I think you're hitting on
something so incredibly real for so many people listening, this
false idea of safety by surrounding yourself with people that
you don't know well but you feel connected to, and
especially if you've been following each other, you feel like
(29:01):
you've known each other over time, but not actually like
not actually in your real life in a way that's
like meaningful or useful to either.
Speaker 5 (29:11):
Yeah, because there's such a difference between an audience and
a community, and we'll see that a lot of folks
will speak to their audience and say we're a community
because you know these things about me, and then as
the audience member or the community member, you're like, yeah,
I am a part of your community because I know
your favorite color, and I know your dog's name, and
(29:33):
I know your favorite food. But in actuality, like you
don't know. And so that's when these get a little messy,
blurred lines like that parasocial dinamic. Yeah, and you feel
like you have this emotional connection an actuality, it's not
an in death emotional connection.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
And a lot of projection, a lot of projection and
outsourcing of feeling. Talk about that what you were saying
a minute ago.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
I think let's illustrate this.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
Even more, like this idea of having community but at
a safe distance, right where you're self protecting. I think
so many people do that and don't even know that's.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
What they're doing. Oh yeah, what is that? What's that dynamic?
How does that show up? What does it look like?
Speaker 5 (30:27):
I mean, I feel like it can look like, you know,
the surface level connections, like knowing specific things about community
members in a community space, but not having or not
investing in the relationships so that if something like a misunderstanding, misagreement,
(30:49):
or conflict happens, it could sustain that situation. That's kind
of when you could tell because it's so easy to
kick you with someone right, right.
Speaker 4 (30:59):
It's so easy to have the good time misery.
Speaker 5 (31:02):
Yeah, it's so easy to celebrate other people like their joy.
But if there's conflict that happens, or someone happens to
be depressed and they're not showing up as much, or
there's a misunderstanding, if you haven't invested in the relationship,
then it's actually hard to go over those hurdles with
(31:22):
each other.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (31:23):
So I think you know a lot of folks they
want to engage in like the feel good dope, mean
feeling conversations and interactions, but they don't really think about Okay,
how about when it doesn't feel good? Because it's inevitable
that's not going to feel good. We're human, We're not
always feeling good all the time. That would be that's
(31:44):
just what it makes sense. We're supposed to experience a
range of emotions. So as an individual, since I'm supposed
to experience a range of emotions, if I'm in community
with someone, I am going to expect that we are
also going to go through a range of emotion. Yeah,
I'm gonna witness you being happy, which is probably how
we're connect about. Also witness you being sad, angry. Confuse,
(32:08):
we might engage in a situation where there's a misunderstanding,
there's a conflict. If I find out a lot of
people get to that point and it's like gonna drop it.
I don't need to engage in this way. I don't
need to get hurt rather than working through it and
practicing that conflict resolution.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
Yeah, building skills and all of it requires practice.
Speaker 5 (32:34):
Yeah, it requires practice. We're not going to do it
perfectly for the first time, but if we don't do
it at all, then we'll never know how to do it.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
Yeah, Yeah, and that's why we can't pull away. Yeah,
we shouldn't pull outside of if you are in a
situation that is abusive, toxic.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Unhealthy, absolutely pull away.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
Yeah, But if it is friction, or if it's just
kind of like poke you and your identity and poking
you and your ego, it's like we have to build
our capacity to like stay in it and work through it.
Speaker 6 (33:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (33:08):
It's like that quote that I've been seeing on social media,
like the price of community is annoyance or irritation.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
It really is that.
Speaker 5 (33:18):
You're gonna get irritated. Like it's not always going to
be feel good. We're always on the same page. You
might not always even like the person in your community space,
but you might love them.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Yeah, just let's talk about that.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
Let's talk about that, because I think that is so
important and now more than ever, we should not be
throwing people away. You know, like we like, you don't
have to like someone all the time. We do that
all the time. We get through that regularly in our
lives when we have to. But then for some reason,
I think in community we can feel like I don't
(33:52):
like this about this person, or I don't like how
something came down, so now they are completely vilified or canceled,
or now they're my actual enemy or I'm going to
do whatever kind of things like ignore or talk about
or you know, reject.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
But what does that look like to be in community?
Speaker 3 (34:11):
Like when things aren't going your way or when you're
not always liking everyone you're surrounded by.
Speaker 5 (34:16):
Honestly, I think different. There's different experiences with this because
also in community spaces, some folks are used to being centered. Yeah,
so they probably have the most difficulty with that. If
you're constantly and consistently centered in community spaces, then when
there is something like that, you're probably resistant to working
(34:40):
through it. Versus someone who's usually not centered and kind
of decentered, you're kind of used to it. You're like, yeah,
I have to be a community with this person that
I probably don't like, but it's not like a harmful situation.
But yeah, I don't like them, but I'm not centered
in this situation. And I think a lot more people
need to decenter themselves and think about what is for
the good of the community.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (35:03):
Yeah, And I think about it because I have an
education background. I got my master's in special education. And
when like you're thinking about a classroom, right, not all
the kids are going to like each other very rarely, dude,
they all like each other. If there is harm, you're
going to disrupt the harm right and you're going to
(35:25):
do resolution within the harm. But even then, still you
might have folks not like each other or kids like
not like each other. But as a teacher, the most
important thing that I have for that classroom is for
it to be a safe classroom where the kids are
learning and they're all respectful to each other and they're
able to thrive. So I'm going to think about the
(35:46):
whole classroom and what's best for.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
The whole class Yeah.
Speaker 5 (35:50):
A kid might not like another kid, but that's not
like my main concern. As long as they both feel
like they belong and they're able to thrive. They don't
have to both like each other to feel those things
because I have to take in consideration the whole classroom. Now,
everything that I'm talking about with that, adults need that too.
We've just kind of discarded at need as an adults.
(36:12):
As soon as you turn eighteen, folks are like, we
don't care about that, But it's just as important to
feel that sense of belonging. You don't have to like
everyone in your community space. You just need the share
values you need that respect and you need to think
about the community as a whole.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
That is such an incredible example, that classroom example that.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
I think shines.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
Through like so brightly because it especially for anyone that
if you remember your youth enough, or if you're a teacher,
but definitely like as a parent now of an elementary
age kid, it's like, yeah, like sometimes the kids are
in conflict and they don't like each other, their identities
are shifting, emotions are high, but there is this shared belonging.
(37:00):
There's this shared belief. No one or couple of people
feel completely ostracized. Like everyone has the space to be
in their personhood and yeah, you can just okay, well
I know those two don't like each other, so I'll
put one on this side, one on this side. Yeah,
they don't hate each other. It's not a battle. They're
not causing harm to each other. There's no need to
(37:23):
like create real divide. It's just I can trust that
you'll find things to do over here.
Speaker 5 (37:30):
Yeah, and striving to be equitable. Right, like driving again,
but putting one on the one side and then one
on the other, versus like putting one in the hallway.
That's when like one is getting centered over the other end.
Of course, you're not going to feel like a sense
of belonging. So just because someone doesn't like someone else
doesn't mean they have to ostracize them the gimunity spaces, right,
(37:51):
It just means that maybe you have to go in
different spaces, different niches within the community space. And I
think sometimes we confuse I like, just did I've been
thinking about this a lot recently, but we can kind
of confuse like punishing people in terms of like, oh,
I'm just I'm protecting my piece and I'm protecting the
(38:12):
community speace piece. But honestly, we end up just punishing
others when we don't like them or we feel like
there's a misunderstanding or something's uncomfortable. So I always just
say like, yeah, really, center like the community, not the individuals.
The individuals make up the community. You would not have
the community without the individuals, so their safety should be
(38:33):
in consideration.
Speaker 6 (38:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Ah, that's so important to hear. That is so important
to hear.
Speaker 3 (38:39):
I want to read a couple of your posts that
I've saved that I really loved.
Speaker 4 (38:46):
Oh yeah, I'm so curious.
Speaker 3 (38:48):
I mean there were so many and I was going
through like I have. I am like such a natural
pinterester even without like doing too much on there. But like,
you know how, on the back of your Instagram you
can save all these different files, like you can have categories.
Speaker 4 (39:04):
I didn't know that.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
What Oh my god, what, oh my god.
Speaker 3 (39:10):
I mean I have like one hundred and five folders
back there, honestly.
Speaker 4 (39:14):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
So I'll actually show you as I'm finding you. So
if you go into your saved on the back end,
you can create all these different like categories that you
save stuff in.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
Oh yeah, see, okay, I have like a ton of different.
Speaker 5 (39:29):
Yeah, because I have been saving, but I don't know
where they've been going.
Speaker 3 (39:32):
So you can categorize them or just go in the
back end and see all of them at once. So
I've saved yours and a bunch of different folders, but
I pulled some.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
Today that I was like, oh, I love this.
Speaker 3 (39:43):
So one of the ones that I'm going to read
and everyone her Instagram is nike Oria and I K
E A U R e A. It'll be linked in
the show notes of this episode. You can get it easily.
But one of the posts you put up said when
people say they want accountability in community spaces, What do
(40:03):
they actually mean? Because sometimes what people call accountability is
actually punishment. In community spaces, we often pursue punishment or
being punished instead of accountability because of how we've been
socialized to respond to harm. Accountability includes consequences, but not
(40:26):
all consequences are punishment. Punishment focuses on blame, It isolates
shames and instantly ends connection. Consequence is different. It's about
the natural outcomes of choices and actions. Consequence can sound
like I no longer feel safe collaborating right now, or
(40:50):
this behavior doesn't align with our agreements, And then you
have repair, which asks how can trust be rebuilt within
this situation or what are the best next steps with
everyone and the community and consideration. Accountability isn't punishment. It's
an invitation to take responsibility and reflect on your actions
(41:14):
and how they impact others. Accountability is care and practice.
It centers curiosity, integrity, and repair.
Speaker 4 (41:23):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
I mean that's a really big teaching that you.
Speaker 3 (41:27):
Offered in twenty slides, you know, like that's a really
fundamentally like this is so foundational for so many people.
And I think, and I'm not saying this with any judgment,
there are things we all may have known that society
(41:49):
may have pushed you away from in the last decade
based on how society on the bigger stage has been
moving through what accountability and consequence does and doesn't look like.
I think that's always kind of what's happening in the
world in the zeitgeist. But when we talk about that's
such a profound difference that people don't get punishment versus accountability. Yeah,
(42:12):
you expressed it, I mean really powerfully there. But what
were what was some of your background inspiration for creating
that teaching and understanding in that.
Speaker 5 (42:22):
Honestly, I'm a reality reality TV connoisseurs or watch a
lot of TV and a trend I've noticed with reality
TV because I watch it because the human behavior is
so interesting and community spaces on the reality TV. But
the inspiration was really hearing accountability over the last two
(42:45):
years being talked about on reality TV shows, like folks
saying I'm taking accountability and them not taking accountability, just
saying they're taking out accountability not practicing it.
Speaker 3 (42:56):
You know, people have different definitions for all the same
words that use this.
Speaker 5 (43:00):
Yeah, so wild, which is so important to define your
words because folks will just make up their own interpretations.
But also the flip side of that is people demanding
other folks to take accountability when really they just mean
I want to punish you, because you can't make someone
take accountability. It's something that the person needs to want
(43:23):
to do. So it really came from that, like folks
wanting to take accountability but maybe not knowing how to
practice doing that. But then also the reverse of like
folks telling other people to take accountability when really just
mean you hurt me, I want you to feel punished.
I'm going to use accountability because it sounds nicer. Yeah,
(43:46):
but I think you know, accountability again, is practice. We
have to practice doing it. It's a reflective practice, and
it's also something that has to come from you actually
wanting to do it, Like you can't fake accountability otherwise
that's not aut ability, that's.
Speaker 4 (44:00):
Just saying sorry.
Speaker 5 (44:03):
And then I do have a client who's so great
at what they do what they do somatic work, where
they said, because I found out a lot of folks
in community spaces, the thing that they're fearful of is
giving folks chances after chance after chance and still getting hurt.
And something that they said was folks, pretending to take
(44:25):
accountability or apologizing with no change behavior is just manipulation. Yes,
so you will. You can't force someone to take accountability.
You can't force them to genuinely apologize and then practice
those things. But I feel like folks feel like they can.
(44:47):
But really what they're just looking for is to punish
others for the harm that they felt.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
How does someone begin to take accountability.
Speaker 5 (44:55):
I think it starts by reflecting on your actions and
actually acknowledging or deciding for yourself. Actually not acknowledging, deciding
for yourself if you if you want to acknowledge the
impact that you may have had on someone else. And
(45:17):
we might think, oh, that person should take accountability, but
it really has to be something that comes from or within.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
That's the only way behavior changes.
Speaker 5 (45:26):
Yeah, that's only way behavior changes. And I'm no longer
interested in being community spaces with folks who know what
to say, but there don't know what to do.
Speaker 4 (45:40):
It's easy to know what to say.
Speaker 3 (45:42):
I mean, I'm eighty percent of people that I see
on social media giving advice do not live.
Speaker 4 (45:50):
All the things that they say, yes.
Speaker 3 (45:53):
And behave completely different Like sometimes you're like, did you
read the book you wrote, because you have some great
tips and examples inside that book, but I don't see
you practicing this.
Speaker 5 (46:04):
Yeah, the number one thing I tell folks when, like,
when I work with folks with like community engagement, like
they want to see their community be more engage, I
say that you have to show them how you want
them to engage. You can't just tell folks like I
want this, this is what I want my community space
to be like, and I'm hosting the space or I'm
the leader of the space, and then you're not doing
(46:24):
any of those things.
Speaker 4 (46:25):
If you want more folks to.
Speaker 5 (46:28):
Comment on your post, maybe you should comment on a
couple of posts, right. If you want more folks to
have conversations without shame and guilt, you should have conversations
without shame and guilt. It's really hard to attract the
community you want if you're not in practice with those
values that you say you want to share with them deeply.
Speaker 3 (46:53):
Well, I want to read another post that you have.
Speaker 1 (46:59):
I have to more actually that.
Speaker 3 (47:00):
I want to read because I just think they're amazing.
Another one says old Wounds and New Spaces why past
harm can shape how we show up in community. Sometimes
we carry old wounds into new spaces, even when the
space hasn't harmed us. It can look like assuming you'll
be left out before it happens, expecting conflict where there
(47:22):
isn't any, seeing feedback as attack, or with drawing to
protect yourself, testing the space to see if it will
hurt you, sabotaging your own belonging. Creating or joining new
communities doesn't erase past experiences, but it can create new
opportunities and experiences in the present. A community supports healing
(47:46):
when it is clear about what it expects, when it
names harm instead of letting it slide, and when it
chooses repair over avoidance. But it's also important that we
reflect as members, share our needs and give things a chance.
We support healing when we name our needs, pause before
assuming the worst, and allow care to reach us even
(48:09):
when it feels unfamiliar. Old wounds do not heal overnight,
but with practice, community can become a place where we
learn that belonging in care are possible again in the
aligned spaces.
Speaker 5 (48:22):
Wow yeah, no yeah projection. I always feel so bad
when I see someone project their pass and kind of
self sabotage and new communities things yeah, and I've seen
it so many times when a part of community is
I've been or I've helped manage or consult on because
(48:43):
it's really just coming from hurt and womb. But I
think also knowing that you may project things can help
you work through them. So really my intention with that
post is like reminding folks that you know you won't
be perfect, like it's inevitable that you might project something
(49:04):
old into something new, but also being gentle with yourself
and honest with yourself that when you might be doing
that and actually self sabotaging.
Speaker 3 (49:16):
For people that would consider themselves maybe empathic previously people pleasers, caretakers, overgivers.
Give me some explanation to this, and I'm just going
to read the first slide. Community care is in everyone
doing everything, it's everyone doing something. Sometimes there's a fear
(49:36):
of being in community after you've done your healing work
because you don't want to take care of everyone, or
you don't want to feel like you're the one that's
going to show up and now take on a whole load.
So like what does that look like? Like how do
you how do you give what you have? How do
you show up in reciprocity? But also not lose yourself
(49:58):
and overgiving and community.
Speaker 5 (50:00):
I think it's really being honest with yourself and others
about your capacity. And sometimes capacity doesn't mean like everything
that you have to give you could still you get
to determine your capacity, Like I might have high capacity
for something, but maybe I don't want to give high capacity.
I want to give medium capacity. And I need to
be honest with myself and my community members.
Speaker 4 (50:24):
If that's the case.
Speaker 5 (50:25):
So I think a part of community work too, and
even that post is boundaries, to holding to our boundaries
but also being clear about our boundaries and sharing it.
And I found that a lot of people, especially align
community spaces, they'll be receptive to that and they'll be understanding.
Sometimes you just kind of have to state it and
(50:45):
remind folks of your capacity. Yeah, and then holding to
those boundaries.
Speaker 4 (50:50):
It's so easy.
Speaker 5 (50:51):
I actually I had a conversation with someone a couple
months ago that I'm just going to hold onto for
a while, because they were talking about how they in
the community spaces, they're in their relationships that they're in.
Usually when they say no to something, the person keeps asking, asking, asking,
(51:14):
and they just give in right and They're like, it's
just easier to give in instead of saying no. So
many times, like, I feel uncomfortable saying no. And I
told them, I said you, they should feel uncomfortable for
continuously asking you. You shouldn't fee uncomfortable for saying no.
But inevitably you might feel uncomfortable.
Speaker 6 (51:36):
Right.
Speaker 4 (51:36):
So the thing is folks are going to ask.
Speaker 2 (51:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (51:40):
Certain people have been socialized to understand the more that
they ask and the more that they push others, that
they will get what they want. I made a commitment
to myself to no longer betray myself in the name
of someone else. And that also means when it comes
(52:01):
to my boundaries and capacity. Again, it's not easy. It's
actually quite difficult, and again you might feel bad about it. However,
I find if you could just route back to I
need to take care of my own self and my
well being and I have named my capacity.
Speaker 1 (52:21):
Yeah, and I've.
Speaker 5 (52:23):
Been honest about it too, and I've been clear about it.
If someone is continuously walking over that, that means they
don't have the same shared values and they're not meant
to be in your community space.
Speaker 1 (52:33):
So good, Yeah, yeah, so good.
Speaker 3 (52:37):
And I think too, and that's where we all to
do this well together.
Speaker 1 (52:43):
That's where we all have to land.
Speaker 3 (52:45):
Is also that community is us practicing being who we
say we are.
Speaker 4 (52:50):
Yeah, you know, it.
Speaker 3 (52:51):
Really is, like it's so important to come out of
isolation and be in practice with relationship, you know. And
we're not going to do it perfectly, and we're not
going to get it right all of the time. And
sometimes you're going to make yourself cringe. Sometimes you're going
to notice what your own limitations are. Either way, it's
(53:14):
just helping you can continue to refine who and what
you are, what your values are, what you allow and
like what you give you know, how you're in reciprocity
with the rest of the world as well.
Speaker 5 (53:28):
And being open to maybe acknowledging when you aren't when
when you when you're not practicing who you say, Like
when you do get that feedback and folks are saying, actually,
you think you're coming across this way, but you're actually
not in saying, oh, maybe this is the time to
self reflect, and I think it is knowing yourself deeply
(53:51):
as well. Right, But again, sometimes we change and we
don't even realize how we change, and we have other
people reflect it back to us and being that's the
the beauty of community, as well as being able to
do that not always having to rely on ourselves for
our perception of self.
Speaker 2 (54:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:10):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (54:11):
Not always relying on yourself for your perception of self. Wow,
I love that so much. I would love to take
this moment. At the end of every episode, I invite
each guest to give what we like to call soul work,
so it is an opportunity to do something that helps
to further integrate all the thoughts that were explored in
(54:34):
this episode. Can look like a practice, it can be
a prompt, it can be a quote that anything uniquely
from you to be soul work for this episode.
Speaker 5 (54:44):
Honestly, I feel like my lifetime soul work is unlearning perfectionism.
So I would always encourage everyone to navigate their relationship
with perfectionism. Get to know the relationship, get into I
met with perfectionism and what means to you and why,
as a human being, you don't need to be perfect.
Speaker 4 (55:07):
It's not your job.
Speaker 5 (55:09):
And in fact, your messy human self is what we
need more of to practice being who we authentically are.
Speaker 2 (55:22):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (55:24):
Nike, thank you so much for joining on this episode.
Just so much love to you and your path. I
know your work is going to continue to explode and
inform and help and teach so many of us. Thank
you for doing what you are doing. And just please girl,
keep going, keep going. We need you, We need everything
(55:46):
that you uniquely bring to this planet right now.
Speaker 4 (55:49):
Thank you for joining We thank you so much for
having me.
Speaker 1 (55:53):
Honored join us.
Speaker 3 (55:55):
Next episode we'll be back, rate and review this episode.
Share with a friend, really, share this episode with another
person that could benefit from it, that you could talk
to about it, that you can expand this dialogue, because
we all have to have to have to come into
(56:17):
healthier community with each other. We all deserve it, but
we all need it to So catch you next week.
No I'm mistays. The content presented on Deeply Wells serves
solely for educational and informational purposes. It should not be
considered a replacement for personalized medical or mental health guidance
(56:40):
and does not constitute a provider patient relationship. As always,
it is advisable to consult with your healthcare provider or
health team for any specific concerns or questions that you
may have. Connect with me on social at Debbie Brown
that's Twitter and Instagram, or you can go to my website,
Debbie Brown dot com.
Speaker 1 (57:02):
And if you're listening to the.
Speaker 3 (57:03):
Show on Apple Podcasts, don't forget. Please rate, review, and
subscribe and send this episode to a friend.
Speaker 1 (57:10):
Deeply Well is a.
Speaker 3 (57:11):
Production of iHeartRadio and The Black Effect Network. It's produced
by Jacqueise Thomas, Samantha Timmins, and me Debbie Brown. The
Beautiful Soundbath You heard That's by Jarrelen Glass from Crystal Cadence.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Speaker 6 (58:00):
M
Host
Devi Brown
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