April 24, 2025 • 48 mins
In this powerful episode, Devi is joined by mental health advocate and thought leader Ann Russo for a conversation that speaks directly to the hearts of those healing from religious trauma. Ann brings deep wisdom and compassion as we explore what it means to reclaim your agency after experiencing harm in spiritual or religious spaces.
Together, they dive into the often-unspoken complexities of religious trauma — how it impacts identity, self-worth, and the connection to something greater. Ann shares her groundbreaking Religious Trauma Treatment Model, offering a path toward healing that honors both faith and authenticity, especially for those in the queer community who have felt excluded or erased.
“What is the definition of religious trauma?
If you think of PTSD, know where depression, anxiety, difficult functioning, challenges in relationships, you're just, overall, something has impacted you that is making life harder to live in a sense. And in this situation, we're talking about religion, and sometimes with PTSD, we can think of it as like a one-time event. I was in a car accident. I'm afraid to be in a car.
But with religious trauma, especially if you're raised in the church, you're going through these events over and over and over. So it becomes very, very complex. It impacts how you view yourself in relation to creation, deity, faith systems, scriptures, and how you navigate the world in these communities.”
This conversation is a reminder that true healing requires safe spaces, cultural competence, and deep humility from those who hold space for others. Whether you’ve personally experienced spiritual harm or are simply seeking to understand and support others on their journey, this episode invites you into a space of empathy, restoration, and radical self-reclamation.
Connect @DeviBrown @DeeplyWellPod
Learn More AnnRusso.org
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Take a deep breath in through your nose. Holds it now,
release slowly again deep in halle hold release, repeating internally
(00:47):
to yourself as you connect to my voice. I am deeply,
deeply well. I am deeply, deeply well. I am deeply wow.
(01:15):
I'm Debbie Brown and this is the Deeply Well Podcast.
Welcome to Deeply Well, a soft place to land on
your journey. A podcast for those that are curious, creative,
and ready to expand in higher consciousness and self care.
(01:36):
This is where we heal, this is where we become.
Welcome to the show. Thank you for being here. I'm
your host, of course, Debbie Brown. And today we are
diving into a conversation that I feel so many people
are really ready to have and so many more deeply
(01:58):
need to hear. Works exploring the path to healing from
religious trauma, reclaiming our agency, and expanding how we think
about identity, relationships and mental health. Joining us today is
a very special guest, and Russo and Russo, LCSWMA and
(02:19):
Theology is a mental health advocate, a therapist and thought
leader specializing in healing religious trauma, sexual empowerment, ethical non monogamy,
queer identity, and inclusivity in mental health. With over two
decades of experience, she combines professional expertise and lived experience
(02:41):
to inspire transformation and foster meaningful conversations about often stigmatized topics.
Anne is currently writing her first book, under contract with Pessi,
which introduces the Religious Trauma Treatment Model RTTM. She is
also the founder and clinical direct of AMR Therapy, a
(03:02):
boutique mental health practice serving clients with a focus on
culturally competent, accessible care for marginalized communities. Whoof, thank you,
welcome to this show, and.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Oh, thank you Devy. I'm so happy to be here today.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
What a special work, what a powerful work, what a
hard work.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
And I can't imagine doing anything else.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, my god, you know the first
question that comes to mind. And actually I'll share kind
of a little bit of a random story. First. I
was in a friend's studio session last year and he
and I were in this deep conversation about the religious
trauma that he experienced, but he didn't quite have the
(03:45):
language to call it.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
That.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
It was kind of like just this feeling that this
forced belief was unhealthy to his childhood and the groups
of people he had to be around for his parents'
belief was unhealthy for his childhood. And I remember we
go to walk in the studio and we're kind of
tying this conversation up right, like you know, you're about
to walk into a room other people are there. So
(04:09):
I as we opened the door, I looked at him
and I said, well, you know, religious trauma is a
real thing. And everyone in the room stopped making music
and looked up and had never heard that term before,
but every single person in the room. It turned into,
(04:29):
you know, another hour of conversation. Everyone's saying, Yo, what
did you just say that? Yes, the church hurt me,
And it was just it was a It was a
really powerful, profound moment for me to kind of bear
witness to as someone that was not raised at all
with any religion or belief, but just knowing that any
(04:51):
kind of forced belief, any dogma, any institutionalized institutionalizing of
really anything, there can be so much pain and conflict
and harm in some times. So I'm so excited to
talk to you about this because this is something that
is just so incredibly real for hundreds of millions of people. Yes, yes,
(05:20):
And I think where I'd love to start is how
did this call find you? How did you know this
was your work?
Speaker 2 (05:28):
So, like you, I wasn't raised in faith. I actually
was raised with the view that faith or religion was
more negative than positive. I was raised by in a
queer household in the eighties and the nineties, so in
that time, it was very much if you're a person
of faith, that feels like you're a person against my family.
(05:52):
So I didn't have the baggage being in a church, right,
but I knew that why do these people not like
my family? So I always just have that in the
back of my mind, you know. And we were raised
in it. I lived in an area where there were
a lot of people practicing. They were Jehovah's witnesses, Mormons,
(06:15):
a lot of Christians, Catholics, very very heavily concentrated more
a Christian faith.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
And I was just.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
So curious about it. But I didn't really have the
tools to learn about it or understand it. But I
always knew that deep down, my dream, my hope was
somehow to bring people together that didn't understand each other.
I didn't know what that would look like. I thought
it would look like being the president if I'm going
(06:43):
to be very honest with you.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yeah, I mean we need a little help in that area,
but maybe don't lose that mission.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
From like first grade on, I'm like, I want to
help people and I'm going to be the president, you know.
But this was always in the back of my mind.
And then when I was eighteen, I met members of
a church out at a coffee shop and they were
evangelizing and it sounded very interesting to me. And truth
be told, one of the members of the church I
(07:14):
instantaneously had a connection with, like she and I just
connected very deeply. And so I'm like, well, this is
my perfect opportunity to go to this church and like
learn right. And what I ended up learning was there
was a lot of rules and how to participate in
faith and being a queer person myself, my identity didn't
(07:40):
line up with what it what it would mean to
be a person faith and that was very, very difficult.
So I studied, studied, studied, I went and I went
on a missions trip. I went to an ex gay ministry.
I was just staying in the Bible. I went and
got a bachelor in Southeast Asian religion. I get my
(08:02):
Masters in theology I was just enveloped myself in religious
communities to understand.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Now, the.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Thing here is I was not ever feeling like I
was wrong, And I think that's important. Like people that
are raised in faith often feel like they're wrong with
a queer identity or many identities, they can do it
that way. So because I didn't have that, I could
go into it almost emotion free. I didn't have a
(08:34):
fear of hell or punishment. I just want to know,
why do you believe this right like and it? And
by doing that work, I gained an empathy and compassion
and understanding for folks that held those beliefs that were
very high control religion what I call it. So I'm
really dedicated, I would say, my twenties and thirties into
(08:59):
helping the your community understand that faith and sexual orientation
didn't have to be separate because it felt like these
two things are not allowed to interpect. So I feel
like queer people that were Christian were really put in
a situation where they had to reject the faith because
(09:19):
it felt like the faith was rejected them. That is deeply,
deeply painful.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Yeah, yeah, just as kind of a baseline understanding for
everyone listening. What is the definition of religious trauma.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
When so, if you think of PTSD, you know where depression, anxiety,
difficult functioning, challenges and relationship you're just overall something has
impacted you that's making life harder to live in a sense.
And in this situation, we're talking about religion. And sometimes
(09:55):
with PTSD we can think of it as like a
one time event. Yeah, I was in a car accident.
I'm afraid to be in a car, right, But with
religious trauma, especially if you're raised in the church, going
through these events over and over, so it becomes very
very complex. Yeah, so it impacts the way that you
(10:16):
view yourself in relation to creation, deity, faith systems, scriptures,
and how you navigate the world in these.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
My goodness, and it's just like the insidious nature of that,
you know, like when you really think of how that
gets into the fiber of your being and how much
that can like truly disconnect you from your human experience.
And you know, just speaking for my belief and I
believe God and I live in co creation with God,
It's like what a heinous act to take away someone's
(10:52):
ability to connect to God because they're equating that with
what is wrong or bad about them? Wow.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
And you know, Debbie, when I focused so much on
the queer community, I didn't think about the level of
impact with others, other communities. And it was maybe about
five or six years ago that I started really looking
at that and I'm like, Okay, well, this is the
female experience in high control religion and what that looks like.
(11:23):
What does it look like when it comes to sexuality
or just sexuality in general, no matter what orientation a
person is, or the ideas of how you're supposed to
pray and if you don't do that a certain way
then you're wrong or stigmatized, and just the various ways
that trauma from religion can show up. And then in
(11:48):
doing that work, I realized other therapists aren't trained in this.
They just don't know. But like you said right at
the beginning of our conversation, when I'm talking about doing this,
I'll get emails from my marketing person and thanks for
talking about this. You know, when I was growing up,
I went to Catholic school and this so it's like, yeah, everybody,
(12:10):
I have really yet to meet a person who has
not experienced some type of religious trauma, whether it's directly
impacted them or someone they know that then impacted them.
It's pervasive.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Can you can you say a little bit more about
a term you used a moment ago, high control religion?
What is that?
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Thank you for asking me? You know, because because I
because I feel like we have to be so cautious,
right because different religious groups they do work for some
people perfectly fine, So like something that may not work
for me may work for you. And I don't like
to say, well, conservative Christian, I don't like to do
(12:53):
that because I don't think that that's very very fair
and loving honestly. So when I'm speaking of high control,
it's really the religious group that tells you basically how
to live, how to think, how to pray, how to
have your faith in black and white. And it's just
(13:14):
very strict structure with little You can't really distance yourself
or have any of your own identity within that group.
H And it can be something as simple as wearing
a pair of pants. You're out of line with God
because you're wearing a pair of pants as a female
right now. That can create a trauma.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Yeah, God, it's so I mean, God, there's just so many,
so many paths right within this conversation and God, it's
just so so so complex to really think about, you know.
Within I was a part of this this really awesome
documentary put together by my friend Teddy called God Talk,
(13:59):
and It'll luminated me to a lot of things I
think I had heard about, but I didn't get to
have direct understanding of as someone that didn't grow up
in a church in that way. And something that seemed
to be this really pervasive thread was and this is
specifically am like Black Christian and Baptist churches in the
(14:20):
context of these stories, but one the high amount of
sexual abuse at the hands of the pastor. And like
one of the stories that was told in that film
was of a young boy needing to go confess to
his pastor something and then the pastor kept asking him
specific questions that were very like gross and out of line.
(14:42):
And when the little boy stood up, he could see
that the pastor was doing things with his body under
the desk while he's talking, and you're just like, like,
what that does to a child's brain forever? Right, And
then in the instances of a pastor actually you know,
(15:03):
harming a child or you know, there are a lot
of stories have come out recently of just the shaming
of women and the shaming of sexuality, the shaming of pregnancy.
And you know, a young girl finding herself pregnant not
by choice, and then having to stand up in front
of the church hundreds of people and be shamed and
(15:24):
apologize for who she is and being told you're not
allowed to have a baby shower, no one will give
her gifts for this child, and you're just.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Like Jesus, it breaks my heart. Yeah, it truly knows
break my heart. And that is one of what you're
talking about, That shame and that shame is such an
foundational issue when it comes to the religious trauma. Is
it's not it's past, like Brene Brown says, You know,
(15:54):
shame is not as goes to the heart of like
you are wrong, not I did something wrong. I mean
they're right, you as you exist are wrong. And the
level of pain and that and and and they're saying
it in the name of of God.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, that just the highest stakes there is,
you know, like when you're thinking about your soul, yes, deeply.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Well, you're writing your new book right now, which I'm
so excited about. My God have we needed, like a
comprehensive body of work that speaks to.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
This thank you, thank you. I'm you know, it's so funny.
I have to tell you because when Pesse approached me
to write a book, they had actually seen a social
media post that I did. I didn't even believe it
was them at first. I'm like Pesse, But when they
reached out, you know, they're like, we want to know
if you can write a book about just trauma in general,
(17:02):
sexual empowerment, you know, the basically the pillars of which
I specialize in. And they asked for a chapter, and
I wrote a chapter on female sexual empowerment within the
confines of the church, specifically the outgrowth of Catholicism to
Christianity and the impact on women. And I submitted that
(17:24):
chapter and they said, we actually want you to write
an entire book on religious trauma.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Wow, because there.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Isn't anything like that out there, they said, And there's
not a lot of training for therapists in this area,
and like we're talking about, it is so pervasive.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Right, yeah, yeah, you know with this model, you're introducing
a religious trauma treatment model. Can you share what that
is and just kind of what inspired you to develop
this framework and how it's helping. Yes.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
So I've been doing this work with clients for a
very long time, and I've been doing this work personally
since you know, eighteen on some level, right, So I
was just thinking, how do I work with my clients,
what do I do? And what I realized is, wait
a minute, and this is actually a model of work
(18:17):
like this is it's taking therapy modalities that already are
evidence based. And I think that that's a very important clarification.
We're using evidence based work and then we're taking that
and we're inserting that into a model that deals with
things like existential crises. We're looking at wow. Yeah, and
(18:38):
we're looking at you know, you know, faith, We're looking
at the reactions of bodies. So we're looking at CBT, DBT,
we're looking at somatic work, narrative work, and then time
that all into religion. And the thing that makes this
a little bit more unique is that we're not saying
(19:00):
in the model, don't be faithful or don't have your
faith anymore. So there's a big component of this that
is helping an individual learn how to continue to have faith. Wow.
And that is a tricky part wow, because I feel
like we I feel like it to say, well, I'm
(19:20):
going to throw this all away. You know, I have
significant anxiety and OCD around sexuality because of my faith. Well,
don't have your faith anymore. Well no, that's that's really
not going to work for the majority of people. So
how do you reclaim your faith through this model of
therapy work?
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Oh my god? Oh wow? Wow? Like what it like?
I'm just that's landing in me because yeah, sometimes, like
when when life is so challenging as it is for
so many of us, like that is the piece that
you don't even know your chasing, like an ability to
(20:01):
have faith in anything. Yes, you know, but sometimes it
does feel like the possibility of even trusting God again
or having faith in God again seems so far and
so hard, and it's like that relationship can just be
so elusive when you have had these compounded, complex types
(20:24):
of traumas within and without belief, you know.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Yeah, and especially when you're coming out of that high
control environment. Yeah, and your family is in that environment,
you're right, Your neighborhood group, your culture group, everyone is
in this church. So it's beyond even just shifting your
theological belief It's like, now, how do I embody this
(20:51):
way of believing while everyone else is still believing this?
Or am I being pushed to believe this? Will I
lose my community? I mean there's so many layers here
of I mean, we're looking at a very complex system
of human existence.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
I mean really, yeah, I mean you have to also, yeah,
like you have to completely reprogram even what your understanding
of community is. And so many people lose theirs in
this kind of reclamation of their own freedom and self.
It's like so often we hear stories of you have
(21:27):
to choose, and you're the entirety of your family, the
entirety of your neighborhood. Now you're just on the outs
and you've lost everything.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
And I saw, you know, especially within the queer community.
What I what I noticed was an outright It's called
the term that people use is christ of phobia, but
it's like you literally feel when when people say they're
Christian or and that was something that I experience, and I,
(22:02):
if I'm being perfectly honest, I still experience because it
was a trauma for me. It was it was a trigger.
So it's like I hear that and immediately I go
this person's going to hate me. If all this, people
are going to hate me because it was just so ingrained, Right,
So what ends up happening is that you push so
(22:23):
far away from the idea of faith or you almost
turn it into some kind of joke or something silly
or ridiculous. But at the heart of that for many
is pain.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, how is that process? You know a
lot of your work is really in service to reclaim
an agency, yeah, you know, personal agency, and you know,
if someone has been harmed in those specific ways, how
do you even begin to heal shame around your sexuality?
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Great question, and it very much is dependent on where
the person is, because everyone is very, very different. And
in the book, I have a lot of vignettes of
people at different stages and even different faiths trying to
maneuver some of this. But one of the main things
that I want to look at is I need to
understand their value system. Right, like people generally, we're all
(23:22):
living in this very complicated world and most of us
are really just trying to survive. And it's incredible how
many of us don't really have the time to even
stop and say, what do I believe? What do I value,
What do I want my life to look like? We
(23:45):
don't really have these conversations, So first I just want
someone to understand those pieces. Now, if there's someone within
a faith community, I'd like to Okay, well what's the
values that you're receiving out of this faith community? Okay,
what's your value? And then I will especially around like
(24:05):
the Abrahamic faith, with some with I'm pretty knowledgeable bull out,
I'll pull in some scripture scripture as well, you know, like,
for example, a client's coming out of a high control
Christian group, I'll say, well, let's talk about what is Jesus?
And let's talk about what is your particular church, and
(24:29):
let's see what lines up and doesn't line up? And
how does that feel? Flower right? And so it's and
it's it's, it is. It's extensive. Wow, it's very difficult work.
So when a person is even like you know, I've
had clients that it's taken years to leave a church
and it's and that happens when they realize that they're
(24:52):
somadically not doing well and it's almost like they're living
two identities and it becomes difficult. They're not integrated. So
the way I speak to them is how can we integrate?
How can we integrate you? Because this how can you
can't live disassociating from yourself because even that is going
(25:13):
to harm your relationship with the divine? Yeah, you know,
but it's slow. Yeah, can you talk about that?
Speaker 1 (25:21):
You know? What what is it to integrate? What does
that word mean in this kind of a context, and
like what is actually happening inside?
Speaker 2 (25:31):
So speaking specifically to a queer person, Yeah, So if
you're told that your sexual orientation is wrong, right, and
you are wrong, and then you are in fact this identity.
You can't change your identity. You cannot change who you are.
But I would make the argument that as a person
(25:53):
of faith, that's not necessarily something you can change either.
It may not be that that particular model, but a
person of faith, I feel like that is equally as
part of your identity. So what we're trying to do
is say, how can you be a person of faith
and a queer person in a harmonious way, not in
(26:17):
a way that's at odds at odds with each other
where it's like, well, I go to church and I
feel bad about who I am. I second guess my
sexuality or how to act on my sexuality or I'm
constantly obsessed about my sexuality because I'm being told that
it's wrong. How do you open yourself up to have
a real relationship with the divine if you're in constant
(26:39):
turmoil and struggle just because you exist as you exist?
Speaker 1 (26:46):
You know what's so a thought is coming up for me.
You know, it's so interesting because it's like God predates
the Bible's existence, right, Faith predates the Bible's existence. Yet
so often when hear about these kind of conflicting ways
of being able to live within faith, it's because it
(27:06):
is in contrast of the Bible specifically, not that it's
in contrast of God, not that it's in contrast of
belief or faith or trust. It is in contrast to
certain things very often taken out of context or kind
of exaggerated in the Bible. And I don't know if
(27:28):
I even have an end to that thought, But that's
someone that's something that came through while you were saying that,
because it's like, yeah, faith and belief in God. I
find a lot of beauty and things that are written
in the Bible, and my relationship to God exists with
or without my connection to the Bible.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
I love that you're saying that, because my largest study
in the theology was first century Christianity and trying and
understanding how did this book come to be?
Speaker 1 (27:59):
Oh, the floor is yours, let's go.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
So I see the book. The Bible is a multitude
of books that came from different areas and in the
Roman Empire, and it was a group of people decided
these are the stories that are going to go in
this book, and we're creating a very specific narrative. Now,
(28:27):
not every book that is in there is the oldest
or the most primary source. So when I look at
the Bible, I go, Okay, this is a book of
humans trying to understand God at its best incarnation. I'll
put it like that. I can see it as like
(28:48):
it's political, it's it's I can see it as many
different ways negatively, but I'm going to choose to say
this is just us learning.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
So it's like, it's not so much that in following
word for word for word, how we're interpreting things today
and the translation of today, but it's more about what
is the overall message that we're trying to understand from
this book. And how than just being myself, how does
(29:23):
this relate or correlate with what messages I'm seeing in
other faith groups?
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Right, and there are many things that overlap. And I'm
sure you've heard this, and you I'm sure you live this.
Love is the defining factor of all of this, absolutely, right, Absolutely,
We're not going to get anywhere yelling Bible versus at
each other like you know. So it's like I'm not
going to do that. I'm not going to try to
(29:48):
disprove someone's faith because while historically speaking, this didn't happen
to No, that's your faith, it's beautiful, it's great. Let's
talk about.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Of Yeah, yeah, are you showing up in love?
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Are you? If we look at who we understand Jesus
to be yes, Okay, do we understand Jesus to be.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Right?
Speaker 2 (30:13):
I mean, really, Jesus is with the marginalized, the hurting.
Jesus is all love. He he is throwing away these rules.
I mean, it's and Jesus is.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
The epitome of mastery of self, mastery of integrity of love. Yes,
and it is always shocking to me. Well, it also
just proves so many people wear it as a cloak
right or wear you know, belief really just as the
thing to fit in. But they aren't doing their own
study or they aren't in their own relationship with God
(30:46):
or with faith, because so many people know the name
of Jesus but refuse to live the tenets of Christ. Oh. Absolutely,
And it's just it's like, yeah, sorry, I'm.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Just like you're right though, because you know, it's I
had a great conversation with a couple of professors the
other day because you know, nerding out on this, and
we were talking about, well, how did this happen? Well,
it happens because you have the church fathers from the
first century or deciding what it means to be a
(31:17):
Christian because when Jesus dies, there's nothing there. Who was
this person? What happened? What do we do with this message?
So now you have human beings trying to build a religion,
and it was built in different ways across the Roman
Empire by different groups of people, and then it was
(31:37):
solidified into one Catholic church not until three hundred and
like twenty AD under a Constantine the emperor. Right, So
that's when you now get this solidified faith, and that's
when idea is about what does it mean to have
free will? What does the trinity mean? These are being
(31:58):
decided by people three hundred years later. So that's why
I feel like this is people trying to understand God,
trying to understand the faith, right, but it's fascinating. But
like Jesus, what do we know about Jesus when you're
looking at sourcing around that time love? But the church
(32:20):
fathers and coming out of Constantine sexuality, women viewed so
negatively and it was used to marginalize and harm people
in the name of Jesus. And that's why we have
what we have today is a faith that for some
is used just to do that, even though it's the
antithesis of how we understand Jesus to be. So it's
(32:43):
like Jesus Versus high control. Christianity deeply well.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
In all the kind of ways that your work and
your curiosity and your lived expens experience kind of come
together and intersect. What are some of the biggest kind
of gaps you see, especially in mental health care, because
I think there is religious trauma, and then they're also
is therapized trauma. You know, people like kind of going
(33:15):
and seeking therapists to reconcile to integrate, and therapists sometimes
being very misaligned with someone's identity or the way to
truly be able to help them. What are some of
the gaps you see in mental health care when it
comes to supporting queer individuals and how can therapists really
create truly affirming spaces.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
First, we all need to have humility because sometimes we
really don't know what we don't know. And I will
see therapists that we'll say I can work with queer
couples because I work with straight couples. It's different. It
(34:02):
is different, you know. But when we were in school,
our profession really teaches that you can work with anybody.
We call for cultural competence, but we teach we're taught
you can work with anyone. But cultural competence is really important.
And I think that's because there is not enough mental
(34:22):
health workers to support the population. But in my practice,
I lean very much into if you do not really
specialize in a disorder or a group of people, don't
do it. Wow, just don't do it. I see the
gaps everywhere, but I think we don't fill in the
(34:43):
gaps necessarily by trying to learn everything. We fill in
the gaps by saying, hey, let me professionally network with
people that are different than me, so I have a
place for clients that are coming to me that I
cannot really work with or I don't have the skill
set to work with, because I know that Dev does
have the skill set to work with these people and
(35:05):
they're going to get good care with Dev. That's that
is the gap filling.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
Truly, I'm so glad you said that, and I think
like that is such that is its own kind of episode.
This this understanding of like humility within expertise. You know,
it's like and that is not That's what really needs
to come online in the world a lot more. And
I think we've been in this culture which is look
(35:33):
at me, look at me, look at me, especially from
an expert standpoint. I mean we definitely say that within
the influencer culture and the girl boss culture and the
online culture, but also with an expertise. It's like everyone
wants to just say I'm the top, I'm this, I'm
the and it's like true expertise is what you said.
(35:55):
It's knowing when when you have specialized in something or
given a lot of particular thought and study to particular
things that your call to do and passing the baton
when you can't do that.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Yes, yes, and you know, I'm so cautious to like
getting my message out there. People want to say, Okay,
well you are an expert in this, and as you've
just said the word specialty, I say, I never ever
actually want to say expert because I don't believe an
expert exists.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
I just don't.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
I believe that there's people that specialize in things. They've
spent their life working on something, they have a great
deal of knowledge and can teach others. But an expert
is like God level, and that just does not exist.
Then that's why I think we need to continue with
that humility, because there's always room to learn and to
grow and to discover.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Yeah. God, And with each generation, everything changes, Yes, is
that kind of the time? Everything changes exactly?
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Like working with you know, queer folks twenty years ago
is not what it is now. I have to I
have to learn so much at one time, you know,
and at thirty I was an expert in this.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
Yeah I'm novice.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Because the experience of people in their twenties looks really different,
you know, So that learning is continuing, Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
And to that point too. You know something I think
within that context and also just within other systems, it's
like the trauma of that even right of like what
it must have been like, Like if you're someone who's
part of the Silent generation or the Boomer generation and
you're queer, and what you're navigating and you're healing may
be completely different than someone who has different kinds of
(37:40):
freedoms and visibility, who's queer in Gen Z or maybe
queer within the Alpha generation. It's there are going to
be different pain points that you might be navigating with
different groups.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Oh my gosh, I remember twenty years ago when I
started to think of what word do I want to
use LGBTQ queer, What do I want to say? And
I use the word queer, and I had quite a
bit of backlash from people that were in older generation.
So that word was hurt to that word was used
to harm us. It's hard triggering, right. But now we're
(38:19):
in a space, and we've been in a space probably
for at least a decade now where that word is
taken back and we're empowered by that word. But twenty
years ago, that word was harmful. Yeah, So I mean
to your.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
Pata has so much sense and the beauty of that
nuance of being able. I think as multiple generations alive
at the same time to hold space for that nuance
in each of our individualized experiences.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Yes, and just have empathy and compassion. And I think
we get caught in our echo chambers sometimes and it's
really important to And I know I keep saying the
word humble, are humble but real, like to humble ourselves
and be around people that have really different experiences than us.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
Yeah, Yeah, humble is one of my favorite words of
all time. I did a three part series on this
podcast on humility this year. So when I say you
are like speaking my language, because everyone gets that word wrong.
I think in today's day and age, that is about
boisterousness and it's about self aggrandizing and visibility. It's like people,
(39:29):
I think have such a misinterpreted understanding of what the
word humility is. Like the path of Christ is the
path of humility and mastery, right like, and everyone thinks human, Well,
I'm not going to be quiet or no, I'm great
and everyone's going to know I'm great, and I'm like,
that's that's not what being humble is. It doesn't mean
(39:51):
be small, be minimized, being visible exact, humble is power,
yees like it is a quiet power or that can
fill a room. Yes, and help a room, you know,
I think humble rest and service and curiosity and empathy. Yes, exactly,
Thank you. This episode is just yeah, special and important.
(40:18):
You know, I think before I to talk to you
all day and week and month. But you know, with you,
with your new book on the Horizon and your work
and mental health advocacy growing, what is your ultimate hope
for how this field is able to evolve in in
addressing excuse me, religious trauma and inclusivity.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Even though my book is religious trauma, I want to
speak specifically to inclusivity because that to me is as everything,
that's the umbrella of everything. Inclusivity. We need more people
in this field that are differ different, I mean honestly,
like we just we need folks from all backgrounds and
(41:08):
all religions and all identities and life experiences to have
access to the type of training first off, that is
beneficial for as many communities possible. There's a lot that
I could break down there in itself, but I'll say
that like evolving, the training evolves as more voices are
(41:31):
involved in what that training looks like, and then more
communities have access to care that's going to make sense
for them. So everything is about inclusivity. So my work
does focus on religion and focus on sexual empowerment, even nominogamy,
things that people sometimes tends up, even therapists tends up
(41:51):
to talk about. You know, I'm doing trainings on you know,
how sex work can be empowering for some people in
mental health, Like I am very very into what therapists
themselves might feel a little uncomfortable with and just tearing
those walls down and educating and advocating, and every person,
(42:14):
no matter who they are, feels like they have a
safe space to go and be themselves and grow and
be the best versions of themselves in a very challenging world.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
In a very challenging world. Wow, And I'm sure you know,
I think a lot of what you were saying too
is like continued education and curiosity for those that are
already a part of that of that world and that network,
because everything is always changing, Like it's just it's so
easy to get stuck in one way of doing things,
(42:46):
maybe with clients or within your network of you know,
therapists or doctors.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
And I think it's important to push back, to advocate,
to learn, you know. I feel like like you're saying,
like you can get stuck in certain ideas, and I'm
a big believer in like learning as much as you
possibly can about something.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
You know.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
So it's and looking at standards of care. Now, granted,
this probably wouldn't fly so great with my board, but
I often look and say, all right, there's this rule here,
but my value system my supervisor loved this is what
I was in this. I said, my value system does
not align with this. I said, this rule is going
(43:34):
to change one day, but my value system and love
and care is not. How do we shift this rule?
Speaker 3 (43:44):
You know?
Speaker 2 (43:44):
So it's like I believe we do have to fight
back at these systems, even the systems that are here
to help and support, there's still parts of that that
we have to fight back. Yeah, and say, how do
we change this for a changing world where there are
more voices and involved in this?
Speaker 1 (44:03):
Yeah, thank you so much. At the end of every episode,
I like to invite our guests to provide some soul
work for the audience, which can be really anything that
allows those listening to integrate even further into the conversation
they just heard and witnessed. So sometimes that looks like
a journal prompt or a somatic practice, a thought starter,
(44:27):
a prayer, a meditation, absolutely anything goes.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
I know just what to say everyone out there, A
lot of us are experiencing anxiety right now, and stress
and cortisol creates more stress. That's going off the hook
for some of us. What I'd like you to be
able to do is just when you find yourself experiencing stress,
try to open up your chest and breathe. Because oftentimes
(44:58):
when we do feel stress dur anxiety, our instinctual reaction
is to come in like this, which actually makes the
stress and anxiety worse. So next time you're experiencing that,
try to make a practice of knowing what's going on
with your body in moments of stress and anxiety, and
just try opening up your chest and just taking some
(45:21):
breath and just grounding yourself and taking thirty seconds to
just be there in your body, check in with your systems,
and you know, for my clients, I'll say try that
two or three times a day. Put an alarm on
your phone. We need ground yourself in your body a
couple of times a day. We're one system where we
(45:44):
have to be connected the whole thing, the whole thing, right,
and sometimes we're so disgiectous from our bodies that were
so anxious that we're not connecting and helpful ways.
Speaker 1 (45:55):
And that's the piece that changes your life. Yeah, like that,
that's the piece that allows you to change your choices. Yes,
which changes your life absolutely. Oh my gosh, I just
I cannot wait for your book to come out. Oh
thank you. This is going to be just I think,
such a game changer for so many people and for everyone.
I want to It's coming out next year, but I
(46:17):
want to put it on everyone's radar. The book is
called Religious Trauma Treatment Model, Religious Trauma Treatment Ma Dol
definitely write this down journalist.
Speaker 2 (46:28):
Yeah, my website. You can subscribe there and I'll give
updates of when the book's coming out as well.
Speaker 1 (46:33):
And if you scroll down into the show notes of
this episode, either on YouTube or Apple or Spotify wherever
you're listening from right now, you'll be able to click
directly into Anne's website and click into every single way
that you can possibly contact or enjoy her work. Debbie,
thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 2 (46:53):
Such a pleasure, such a soulful conversation.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
Thank you, and Russo. I can't wait to get the book.
Thank you, Thank you for listening everyone. We will be
back next week now Mistaysday. The content presented on Deeply
Well serves solely for educational and informational purposes. It should
not be considered a replacement for personalized medical or mental
(47:20):
health guidance, and does not constitute a provider patient relationship.
As always, it is advisable to consult with your healthcare
provider or health team or any specific concerns or questions
that you may have. Connect with me on social at
Debbie Brown. That's Twitter and Instagram, or you can go
(47:40):
to my website Debbie Brown dot com. And if you're
listening to the show on Apple Podcasts, don't forget. Please rate, review,
and subscribe and send this episode to a friend. Deeply
Well is a production of iHeartRadio and The Black Effect Network.
It's produced by Jack Leise Thomas, Samantha Timmos, and me
Debbie Brown. The beautiful Soundback You Heard That's by Jarrelyn
(48:03):
Glass from Crystal Cadence. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit
the iHeartRadio app, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Take a deep breath in through your nose. Holds it now,
release slowly again deep in halle hold release, repeating internally
(00:47):
to yourself as you connect to my voice. I am deeply,
deeply well. I am deeply, deeply well. I am deeply wow.
(01:15):
I'm Debbie Brown and this is the Deeply Well Podcast.
Welcome to Deeply Well, a soft place to land on
your journey. A podcast for those that are curious, creative,
and ready to expand in higher consciousness and self care.
(01:36):
This is where we heal, this is where we become.
Welcome to the show. Thank you for being here. I'm
your host, of course, Debbie Brown. And today we are
diving into a conversation that I feel so many people
are really ready to have and so many more deeply
(01:58):
need to hear. Works exploring the path to healing from
religious trauma, reclaiming our agency, and expanding how we think
about identity, relationships and mental health. Joining us today is
a very special guest, and Russo and Russo, LCSWMA and
(02:19):
Theology is a mental health advocate, a therapist and thought
leader specializing in healing religious trauma, sexual empowerment, ethical non monogamy,
queer identity, and inclusivity in mental health. With over two
decades of experience, she combines professional expertise and lived experience
(02:41):
to inspire transformation and foster meaningful conversations about often stigmatized topics.
Anne is currently writing her first book, under contract with Pessi,
which introduces the Religious Trauma Treatment Model RTTM. She is
also the founder and clinical direct of AMR Therapy, a
(03:02):
boutique mental health practice serving clients with a focus on
culturally competent, accessible care for marginalized communities. Whoof, thank you,
welcome to this show, and.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Oh, thank you Devy. I'm so happy to be here today.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
What a special work, what a powerful work, what a
hard work.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
And I can't imagine doing anything else.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, my god, you know the first
question that comes to mind. And actually I'll share kind
of a little bit of a random story. First. I
was in a friend's studio session last year and he
and I were in this deep conversation about the religious
trauma that he experienced, but he didn't quite have the
(03:45):
language to call it.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
That.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
It was kind of like just this feeling that this
forced belief was unhealthy to his childhood and the groups
of people he had to be around for his parents'
belief was unhealthy for his childhood. And I remember we
go to walk in the studio and we're kind of
tying this conversation up right, like you know, you're about
to walk into a room other people are there. So
(04:09):
I as we opened the door, I looked at him
and I said, well, you know, religious trauma is a
real thing. And everyone in the room stopped making music
and looked up and had never heard that term before,
but every single person in the room. It turned into,
(04:29):
you know, another hour of conversation. Everyone's saying, Yo, what
did you just say that? Yes, the church hurt me,
And it was just it was a It was a
really powerful, profound moment for me to kind of bear
witness to as someone that was not raised at all
with any religion or belief, but just knowing that any
(04:51):
kind of forced belief, any dogma, any institutionalized institutionalizing of
really anything, there can be so much pain and conflict
and harm in some times. So I'm so excited to
talk to you about this because this is something that
is just so incredibly real for hundreds of millions of people. Yes, yes,
(05:20):
And I think where I'd love to start is how
did this call find you? How did you know this
was your work?
Speaker 2 (05:28):
So, like you, I wasn't raised in faith. I actually
was raised with the view that faith or religion was
more negative than positive. I was raised by in a
queer household in the eighties and the nineties, so in
that time, it was very much if you're a person
of faith, that feels like you're a person against my family.
(05:52):
So I didn't have the baggage being in a church, right,
but I knew that why do these people not like
my family? So I always just have that in the
back of my mind, you know. And we were raised
in it. I lived in an area where there were
a lot of people practicing. They were Jehovah's witnesses, Mormons,
(06:15):
a lot of Christians, Catholics, very very heavily concentrated more
a Christian faith.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
And I was just.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
So curious about it. But I didn't really have the
tools to learn about it or understand it. But I
always knew that deep down, my dream, my hope was
somehow to bring people together that didn't understand each other.
I didn't know what that would look like. I thought
it would look like being the president if I'm going
(06:43):
to be very honest with you.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yeah, I mean we need a little help in that area,
but maybe don't lose that mission.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
From like first grade on, I'm like, I want to
help people and I'm going to be the president, you know.
But this was always in the back of my mind.
And then when I was eighteen, I met members of
a church out at a coffee shop and they were
evangelizing and it sounded very interesting to me. And truth
be told, one of the members of the church I
(07:14):
instantaneously had a connection with, like she and I just
connected very deeply. And so I'm like, well, this is
my perfect opportunity to go to this church and like
learn right. And what I ended up learning was there
was a lot of rules and how to participate in
faith and being a queer person myself, my identity didn't
(07:40):
line up with what it what it would mean to
be a person faith and that was very, very difficult.
So I studied, studied, studied, I went and I went
on a missions trip. I went to an ex gay ministry.
I was just staying in the Bible. I went and
got a bachelor in Southeast Asian religion. I get my
(08:02):
Masters in theology I was just enveloped myself in religious
communities to understand.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Now, the.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Thing here is I was not ever feeling like I
was wrong, And I think that's important. Like people that
are raised in faith often feel like they're wrong with
a queer identity or many identities, they can do it
that way. So because I didn't have that, I could
go into it almost emotion free. I didn't have a
(08:34):
fear of hell or punishment. I just want to know,
why do you believe this right like and it? And
by doing that work, I gained an empathy and compassion
and understanding for folks that held those beliefs that were
very high control religion what I call it. So I'm
really dedicated, I would say, my twenties and thirties into
(08:59):
helping the your community understand that faith and sexual orientation
didn't have to be separate because it felt like these
two things are not allowed to interpect. So I feel
like queer people that were Christian were really put in
a situation where they had to reject the faith because
(09:19):
it felt like the faith was rejected them. That is deeply,
deeply painful.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Yeah, yeah, just as kind of a baseline understanding for
everyone listening. What is the definition of religious trauma.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
When so, if you think of PTSD, you know where depression, anxiety,
difficult functioning, challenges and relationship you're just overall something has
impacted you that's making life harder to live in a sense.
And in this situation, we're talking about religion. And sometimes
(09:55):
with PTSD we can think of it as like a
one time event. Yeah, I was in a car accident.
I'm afraid to be in a car, right, But with
religious trauma, especially if you're raised in the church, going
through these events over and over, so it becomes very
very complex. Yeah, so it impacts the way that you
(10:16):
view yourself in relation to creation, deity, faith systems, scriptures,
and how you navigate the world in these.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
My goodness, and it's just like the insidious nature of that,
you know, like when you really think of how that
gets into the fiber of your being and how much
that can like truly disconnect you from your human experience.
And you know, just speaking for my belief and I
believe God and I live in co creation with God,
It's like what a heinous act to take away someone's
(10:52):
ability to connect to God because they're equating that with
what is wrong or bad about them? Wow.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
And you know, Debbie, when I focused so much on
the queer community, I didn't think about the level of
impact with others, other communities. And it was maybe about
five or six years ago that I started really looking
at that and I'm like, Okay, well, this is the
female experience in high control religion and what that looks like.
(11:23):
What does it look like when it comes to sexuality
or just sexuality in general, no matter what orientation a
person is, or the ideas of how you're supposed to
pray and if you don't do that a certain way
then you're wrong or stigmatized, and just the various ways
that trauma from religion can show up. And then in
(11:48):
doing that work, I realized other therapists aren't trained in this.
They just don't know. But like you said right at
the beginning of our conversation, when I'm talking about doing this,
I'll get emails from my marketing person and thanks for
talking about this. You know, when I was growing up,
I went to Catholic school and this so it's like, yeah, everybody,
(12:10):
I have really yet to meet a person who has
not experienced some type of religious trauma, whether it's directly
impacted them or someone they know that then impacted them.
It's pervasive.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Can you can you say a little bit more about
a term you used a moment ago, high control religion?
What is that?
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Thank you for asking me? You know, because because I
because I feel like we have to be so cautious,
right because different religious groups they do work for some
people perfectly fine, So like something that may not work
for me may work for you. And I don't like
to say, well, conservative Christian, I don't like to do
(12:53):
that because I don't think that that's very very fair
and loving honestly. So when I'm speaking of high control,
it's really the religious group that tells you basically how
to live, how to think, how to pray, how to
have your faith in black and white. And it's just
(13:14):
very strict structure with little You can't really distance yourself
or have any of your own identity within that group.
H And it can be something as simple as wearing
a pair of pants. You're out of line with God
because you're wearing a pair of pants as a female
right now. That can create a trauma.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Yeah, God, it's so I mean, God, there's just so many,
so many paths right within this conversation and God, it's
just so so so complex to really think about, you know.
Within I was a part of this this really awesome
documentary put together by my friend Teddy called God Talk,
(13:59):
and It'll luminated me to a lot of things I
think I had heard about, but I didn't get to
have direct understanding of as someone that didn't grow up
in a church in that way. And something that seemed
to be this really pervasive thread was and this is
specifically am like Black Christian and Baptist churches in the
(14:20):
context of these stories, but one the high amount of
sexual abuse at the hands of the pastor. And like
one of the stories that was told in that film
was of a young boy needing to go confess to
his pastor something and then the pastor kept asking him
specific questions that were very like gross and out of line.
(14:42):
And when the little boy stood up, he could see
that the pastor was doing things with his body under
the desk while he's talking, and you're just like, like,
what that does to a child's brain forever? Right, And
then in the instances of a pastor actually you know,
(15:03):
harming a child or you know, there are a lot
of stories have come out recently of just the shaming
of women and the shaming of sexuality, the shaming of pregnancy.
And you know, a young girl finding herself pregnant not
by choice, and then having to stand up in front
of the church hundreds of people and be shamed and
(15:24):
apologize for who she is and being told you're not
allowed to have a baby shower, no one will give
her gifts for this child, and you're just.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Like Jesus, it breaks my heart. Yeah, it truly knows
break my heart. And that is one of what you're
talking about, That shame and that shame is such an
foundational issue when it comes to the religious trauma. Is
it's not it's past, like Brene Brown says, You know,
(15:54):
shame is not as goes to the heart of like
you are wrong, not I did something wrong. I mean
they're right, you as you exist are wrong. And the
level of pain and that and and and they're saying
it in the name of of God.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, that just the highest stakes there is,
you know, like when you're thinking about your soul, yes, deeply.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Well, you're writing your new book right now, which I'm
so excited about. My God have we needed, like a
comprehensive body of work that speaks to.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
This thank you, thank you. I'm you know, it's so funny.
I have to tell you because when Pesse approached me
to write a book, they had actually seen a social
media post that I did. I didn't even believe it
was them at first. I'm like Pesse, But when they
reached out, you know, they're like, we want to know
if you can write a book about just trauma in general,
(17:02):
sexual empowerment, you know, the basically the pillars of which
I specialize in. And they asked for a chapter, and
I wrote a chapter on female sexual empowerment within the
confines of the church, specifically the outgrowth of Catholicism to
Christianity and the impact on women. And I submitted that
(17:24):
chapter and they said, we actually want you to write
an entire book on religious trauma.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Wow, because there.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Isn't anything like that out there, they said, And there's
not a lot of training for therapists in this area,
and like we're talking about, it is so pervasive.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Right, yeah, yeah, you know with this model, you're introducing
a religious trauma treatment model. Can you share what that
is and just kind of what inspired you to develop
this framework and how it's helping. Yes.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
So I've been doing this work with clients for a
very long time, and I've been doing this work personally
since you know, eighteen on some level, right, So I
was just thinking, how do I work with my clients,
what do I do? And what I realized is, wait
a minute, and this is actually a model of work
(18:17):
like this is it's taking therapy modalities that already are
evidence based. And I think that that's a very important clarification.
We're using evidence based work and then we're taking that
and we're inserting that into a model that deals with
things like existential crises. We're looking at wow. Yeah, and
(18:38):
we're looking at you know, you know, faith, We're looking
at the reactions of bodies. So we're looking at CBT, DBT,
we're looking at somatic work, narrative work, and then time
that all into religion. And the thing that makes this
a little bit more unique is that we're not saying
(19:00):
in the model, don't be faithful or don't have your
faith anymore. So there's a big component of this that
is helping an individual learn how to continue to have faith. Wow.
And that is a tricky part wow, because I feel
like we I feel like it to say, well, I'm
(19:20):
going to throw this all away. You know, I have
significant anxiety and OCD around sexuality because of my faith. Well,
don't have your faith anymore. Well no, that's that's really
not going to work for the majority of people. So
how do you reclaim your faith through this model of
therapy work?
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Oh my god? Oh wow? Wow? Like what it like?
I'm just that's landing in me because yeah, sometimes, like
when when life is so challenging as it is for
so many of us, like that is the piece that
you don't even know your chasing, like an ability to
(20:01):
have faith in anything. Yes, you know, but sometimes it
does feel like the possibility of even trusting God again
or having faith in God again seems so far and
so hard, and it's like that relationship can just be
so elusive when you have had these compounded, complex types
(20:24):
of traumas within and without belief, you know.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Yeah, and especially when you're coming out of that high
control environment. Yeah, and your family is in that environment,
you're right, Your neighborhood group, your culture group, everyone is
in this church. So it's beyond even just shifting your
theological belief It's like, now, how do I embody this
(20:51):
way of believing while everyone else is still believing this?
Or am I being pushed to believe this? Will I
lose my community? I mean there's so many layers here
of I mean, we're looking at a very complex system
of human existence.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
I mean really, yeah, I mean you have to also, yeah,
like you have to completely reprogram even what your understanding
of community is. And so many people lose theirs in
this kind of reclamation of their own freedom and self.
It's like so often we hear stories of you have
(21:27):
to choose, and you're the entirety of your family, the
entirety of your neighborhood. Now you're just on the outs
and you've lost everything.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
And I saw, you know, especially within the queer community.
What I what I noticed was an outright It's called
the term that people use is christ of phobia, but
it's like you literally feel when when people say they're
Christian or and that was something that I experience, and I,
(22:02):
if I'm being perfectly honest, I still experience because it
was a trauma for me. It was it was a trigger.
So it's like I hear that and immediately I go
this person's going to hate me. If all this, people
are going to hate me because it was just so ingrained, Right,
So what ends up happening is that you push so
(22:23):
far away from the idea of faith or you almost
turn it into some kind of joke or something silly
or ridiculous. But at the heart of that for many
is pain.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, how is that process? You know a
lot of your work is really in service to reclaim
an agency, yeah, you know, personal agency, and you know,
if someone has been harmed in those specific ways, how
do you even begin to heal shame around your sexuality?
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Great question, and it very much is dependent on where
the person is, because everyone is very, very different. And
in the book, I have a lot of vignettes of
people at different stages and even different faiths trying to
maneuver some of this. But one of the main things
that I want to look at is I need to
understand their value system. Right, like people generally, we're all
(23:22):
living in this very complicated world and most of us
are really just trying to survive. And it's incredible how
many of us don't really have the time to even
stop and say, what do I believe? What do I value,
What do I want my life to look like? We
(23:45):
don't really have these conversations, So first I just want
someone to understand those pieces. Now, if there's someone within
a faith community, I'd like to Okay, well what's the
values that you're receiving out of this faith community? Okay,
what's your value? And then I will especially around like
(24:05):
the Abrahamic faith, with some with I'm pretty knowledgeable bull out,
I'll pull in some scripture scripture as well, you know, like,
for example, a client's coming out of a high control
Christian group, I'll say, well, let's talk about what is Jesus?
And let's talk about what is your particular church, and
(24:29):
let's see what lines up and doesn't line up? And
how does that feel? Flower right? And so it's and
it's it's, it is. It's extensive. Wow, it's very difficult work.
So when a person is even like you know, I've
had clients that it's taken years to leave a church
and it's and that happens when they realize that they're
(24:52):
somadically not doing well and it's almost like they're living
two identities and it becomes difficult. They're not integrated. So
the way I speak to them is how can we integrate?
How can we integrate you? Because this how can you
can't live disassociating from yourself because even that is going
(25:13):
to harm your relationship with the divine? Yeah, you know,
but it's slow. Yeah, can you talk about that?
Speaker 1 (25:21):
You know? What what is it to integrate? What does
that word mean in this kind of a context, and
like what is actually happening inside?
Speaker 2 (25:31):
So speaking specifically to a queer person, Yeah, So if
you're told that your sexual orientation is wrong, right, and
you are wrong, and then you are in fact this identity.
You can't change your identity. You cannot change who you are.
But I would make the argument that as a person
(25:53):
of faith, that's not necessarily something you can change either.
It may not be that that particular model, but a
person of faith, I feel like that is equally as
part of your identity. So what we're trying to do
is say, how can you be a person of faith
and a queer person in a harmonious way, not in
(26:17):
a way that's at odds at odds with each other
where it's like, well, I go to church and I
feel bad about who I am. I second guess my
sexuality or how to act on my sexuality or I'm
constantly obsessed about my sexuality because I'm being told that
it's wrong. How do you open yourself up to have
a real relationship with the divine if you're in constant
(26:39):
turmoil and struggle just because you exist as you exist?
Speaker 1 (26:46):
You know what's so a thought is coming up for me.
You know, it's so interesting because it's like God predates
the Bible's existence, right, Faith predates the Bible's existence. Yet
so often when hear about these kind of conflicting ways
of being able to live within faith, it's because it
(27:06):
is in contrast of the Bible specifically, not that it's
in contrast of God, not that it's in contrast of
belief or faith or trust. It is in contrast to
certain things very often taken out of context or kind
of exaggerated in the Bible. And I don't know if
(27:28):
I even have an end to that thought, But that's
someone that's something that came through while you were saying that,
because it's like, yeah, faith and belief in God. I
find a lot of beauty and things that are written
in the Bible, and my relationship to God exists with
or without my connection to the Bible.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
I love that you're saying that, because my largest study
in the theology was first century Christianity and trying and
understanding how did this book come to be?
Speaker 1 (27:59):
Oh, the floor is yours, let's go.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
So I see the book. The Bible is a multitude
of books that came from different areas and in the
Roman Empire, and it was a group of people decided
these are the stories that are going to go in
this book, and we're creating a very specific narrative. Now,
(28:27):
not every book that is in there is the oldest
or the most primary source. So when I look at
the Bible, I go, Okay, this is a book of
humans trying to understand God at its best incarnation. I'll
put it like that. I can see it as like
(28:48):
it's political, it's it's I can see it as many
different ways negatively, but I'm going to choose to say
this is just us learning.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
So it's like, it's not so much that in following
word for word for word, how we're interpreting things today
and the translation of today, but it's more about what
is the overall message that we're trying to understand from
this book. And how than just being myself, how does
(29:23):
this relate or correlate with what messages I'm seeing in
other faith groups?
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Right, and there are many things that overlap. And I'm
sure you've heard this, and you I'm sure you live this.
Love is the defining factor of all of this, absolutely, right, Absolutely,
We're not going to get anywhere yelling Bible versus at
each other like you know. So it's like I'm not
going to do that. I'm not going to try to
(29:48):
disprove someone's faith because while historically speaking, this didn't happen
to No, that's your faith, it's beautiful, it's great. Let's
talk about.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Of Yeah, yeah, are you showing up in love?
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Are you? If we look at who we understand Jesus
to be yes, Okay, do we understand Jesus to be.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Right?
Speaker 2 (30:13):
I mean, really, Jesus is with the marginalized, the hurting.
Jesus is all love. He he is throwing away these rules.
I mean, it's and Jesus is.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
The epitome of mastery of self, mastery of integrity of love. Yes,
and it is always shocking to me. Well, it also
just proves so many people wear it as a cloak
right or wear you know, belief really just as the
thing to fit in. But they aren't doing their own
study or they aren't in their own relationship with God
(30:46):
or with faith, because so many people know the name
of Jesus but refuse to live the tenets of Christ. Oh. Absolutely,
And it's just it's like, yeah, sorry, I'm.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Just like you're right though, because you know, it's I
had a great conversation with a couple of professors the
other day because you know, nerding out on this, and
we were talking about, well, how did this happen? Well,
it happens because you have the church fathers from the
first century or deciding what it means to be a
(31:17):
Christian because when Jesus dies, there's nothing there. Who was
this person? What happened? What do we do with this message?
So now you have human beings trying to build a religion,
and it was built in different ways across the Roman
Empire by different groups of people, and then it was
(31:37):
solidified into one Catholic church not until three hundred and
like twenty AD under a Constantine the emperor. Right, So
that's when you now get this solidified faith, and that's
when idea is about what does it mean to have
free will? What does the trinity mean? These are being
(31:58):
decided by people three hundred years later. So that's why
I feel like this is people trying to understand God,
trying to understand the faith, right, but it's fascinating. But
like Jesus, what do we know about Jesus when you're
looking at sourcing around that time love? But the church
(32:20):
fathers and coming out of Constantine sexuality, women viewed so
negatively and it was used to marginalize and harm people
in the name of Jesus. And that's why we have
what we have today is a faith that for some
is used just to do that, even though it's the
antithesis of how we understand Jesus to be. So it's
(32:43):
like Jesus Versus high control. Christianity deeply well.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
In all the kind of ways that your work and
your curiosity and your lived expens experience kind of come
together and intersect. What are some of the biggest kind
of gaps you see, especially in mental health care, because
I think there is religious trauma, and then they're also
is therapized trauma. You know, people like kind of going
(33:15):
and seeking therapists to reconcile to integrate, and therapists sometimes
being very misaligned with someone's identity or the way to
truly be able to help them. What are some of
the gaps you see in mental health care when it
comes to supporting queer individuals and how can therapists really
create truly affirming spaces.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
First, we all need to have humility because sometimes we
really don't know what we don't know. And I will
see therapists that we'll say I can work with queer
couples because I work with straight couples. It's different. It
(34:02):
is different, you know. But when we were in school,
our profession really teaches that you can work with anybody.
We call for cultural competence, but we teach we're taught
you can work with anyone. But cultural competence is really important.
And I think that's because there is not enough mental
(34:22):
health workers to support the population. But in my practice,
I lean very much into if you do not really
specialize in a disorder or a group of people, don't
do it. Wow, just don't do it. I see the
gaps everywhere, but I think we don't fill in the
(34:43):
gaps necessarily by trying to learn everything. We fill in
the gaps by saying, hey, let me professionally network with
people that are different than me, so I have a
place for clients that are coming to me that I
cannot really work with or I don't have the skill
set to work with, because I know that Dev does
have the skill set to work with these people and
(35:05):
they're going to get good care with Dev. That's that
is the gap filling.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
Truly, I'm so glad you said that, and I think
like that is such that is its own kind of episode.
This this understanding of like humility within expertise. You know,
it's like and that is not That's what really needs
to come online in the world a lot more. And
I think we've been in this culture which is look
(35:33):
at me, look at me, look at me, especially from
an expert standpoint. I mean we definitely say that within
the influencer culture and the girl boss culture and the
online culture, but also with an expertise. It's like everyone
wants to just say I'm the top, I'm this, I'm
the and it's like true expertise is what you said.
(35:55):
It's knowing when when you have specialized in something or
given a lot of particular thought and study to particular
things that your call to do and passing the baton
when you can't do that.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Yes, yes, and you know, I'm so cautious to like
getting my message out there. People want to say, Okay,
well you are an expert in this, and as you've
just said the word specialty, I say, I never ever
actually want to say expert because I don't believe an
expert exists.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
I just don't.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
I believe that there's people that specialize in things. They've
spent their life working on something, they have a great
deal of knowledge and can teach others. But an expert
is like God level, and that just does not exist.
Then that's why I think we need to continue with
that humility, because there's always room to learn and to
grow and to discover.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Yeah. God, And with each generation, everything changes, Yes, is
that kind of the time? Everything changes exactly?
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Like working with you know, queer folks twenty years ago
is not what it is now. I have to I
have to learn so much at one time, you know,
and at thirty I was an expert in this.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
Yeah I'm novice.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Because the experience of people in their twenties looks really different,
you know, So that learning is continuing, Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
And to that point too. You know something I think
within that context and also just within other systems, it's
like the trauma of that even right of like what
it must have been like, Like if you're someone who's
part of the Silent generation or the Boomer generation and
you're queer, and what you're navigating and you're healing may
be completely different than someone who has different kinds of
(37:40):
freedoms and visibility, who's queer in Gen Z or maybe
queer within the Alpha generation. It's there are going to
be different pain points that you might be navigating with
different groups.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Oh my gosh, I remember twenty years ago when I
started to think of what word do I want to
use LGBTQ queer, What do I want to say? And
I use the word queer, and I had quite a
bit of backlash from people that were in older generation.
So that word was hurt to that word was used
to harm us. It's hard triggering, right. But now we're
(38:19):
in a space, and we've been in a space probably
for at least a decade now where that word is
taken back and we're empowered by that word. But twenty
years ago, that word was harmful. Yeah, So I mean
to your.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
Pata has so much sense and the beauty of that
nuance of being able. I think as multiple generations alive
at the same time to hold space for that nuance
in each of our individualized experiences.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Yes, and just have empathy and compassion. And I think
we get caught in our echo chambers sometimes and it's
really important to And I know I keep saying the
word humble, are humble but real, like to humble ourselves
and be around people that have really different experiences than us.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
Yeah, Yeah, humble is one of my favorite words of
all time. I did a three part series on this
podcast on humility this year. So when I say you
are like speaking my language, because everyone gets that word wrong.
I think in today's day and age, that is about
boisterousness and it's about self aggrandizing and visibility. It's like people,
(39:29):
I think have such a misinterpreted understanding of what the
word humility is. Like the path of Christ is the
path of humility and mastery, right like, and everyone thinks human, Well,
I'm not going to be quiet or no, I'm great
and everyone's going to know I'm great, and I'm like,
that's that's not what being humble is. It doesn't mean
(39:51):
be small, be minimized, being visible exact, humble is power,
yees like it is a quiet power or that can
fill a room. Yes, and help a room, you know,
I think humble rest and service and curiosity and empathy. Yes, exactly,
Thank you. This episode is just yeah, special and important.
(40:18):
You know, I think before I to talk to you
all day and week and month. But you know, with you,
with your new book on the Horizon and your work
and mental health advocacy growing, what is your ultimate hope
for how this field is able to evolve in in
addressing excuse me, religious trauma and inclusivity.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Even though my book is religious trauma, I want to
speak specifically to inclusivity because that to me is as everything,
that's the umbrella of everything. Inclusivity. We need more people
in this field that are differ different, I mean honestly,
like we just we need folks from all backgrounds and
(41:08):
all religions and all identities and life experiences to have
access to the type of training first off, that is
beneficial for as many communities possible. There's a lot that
I could break down there in itself, but I'll say
that like evolving, the training evolves as more voices are
(41:31):
involved in what that training looks like, and then more
communities have access to care that's going to make sense
for them. So everything is about inclusivity. So my work
does focus on religion and focus on sexual empowerment, even nominogamy,
things that people sometimes tends up, even therapists tends up
(41:51):
to talk about. You know, I'm doing trainings on you know,
how sex work can be empowering for some people in
mental health, Like I am very very into what therapists
themselves might feel a little uncomfortable with and just tearing
those walls down and educating and advocating, and every person,
(42:14):
no matter who they are, feels like they have a
safe space to go and be themselves and grow and
be the best versions of themselves in a very challenging world.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
In a very challenging world. Wow, And I'm sure you know,
I think a lot of what you were saying too
is like continued education and curiosity for those that are
already a part of that of that world and that network,
because everything is always changing, Like it's just it's so
easy to get stuck in one way of doing things,
(42:46):
maybe with clients or within your network of you know,
therapists or doctors.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
And I think it's important to push back, to advocate,
to learn, you know. I feel like like you're saying,
like you can get stuck in certain ideas, and I'm
a big believer in like learning as much as you
possibly can about something.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
You know.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
So it's and looking at standards of care. Now, granted,
this probably wouldn't fly so great with my board, but
I often look and say, all right, there's this rule here,
but my value system my supervisor loved this is what
I was in this. I said, my value system does
not align with this. I said, this rule is going
(43:34):
to change one day, but my value system and love
and care is not. How do we shift this rule?
Speaker 3 (43:44):
You know?
Speaker 2 (43:44):
So it's like I believe we do have to fight
back at these systems, even the systems that are here
to help and support, there's still parts of that that
we have to fight back. Yeah, and say, how do
we change this for a changing world where there are
more voices and involved in this?
Speaker 1 (44:03):
Yeah, thank you so much. At the end of every episode,
I like to invite our guests to provide some soul
work for the audience, which can be really anything that
allows those listening to integrate even further into the conversation
they just heard and witnessed. So sometimes that looks like
a journal prompt or a somatic practice, a thought starter,
(44:27):
a prayer, a meditation, absolutely anything goes.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
I know just what to say everyone out there, A
lot of us are experiencing anxiety right now, and stress
and cortisol creates more stress. That's going off the hook
for some of us. What I'd like you to be
able to do is just when you find yourself experiencing stress,
try to open up your chest and breathe. Because oftentimes
(44:58):
when we do feel stress dur anxiety, our instinctual reaction
is to come in like this, which actually makes the
stress and anxiety worse. So next time you're experiencing that,
try to make a practice of knowing what's going on
with your body in moments of stress and anxiety, and
just try opening up your chest and just taking some
(45:21):
breath and just grounding yourself and taking thirty seconds to
just be there in your body, check in with your systems,
and you know, for my clients, I'll say try that
two or three times a day. Put an alarm on
your phone. We need ground yourself in your body a
couple of times a day. We're one system where we
(45:44):
have to be connected the whole thing, the whole thing, right,
and sometimes we're so disgiectous from our bodies that were
so anxious that we're not connecting and helpful ways.
Speaker 1 (45:55):
And that's the piece that changes your life. Yeah, like that,
that's the piece that allows you to change your choices. Yes,
which changes your life absolutely. Oh my gosh, I just
I cannot wait for your book to come out. Oh
thank you. This is going to be just I think,
such a game changer for so many people and for everyone.
I want to It's coming out next year, but I
(46:17):
want to put it on everyone's radar. The book is
called Religious Trauma Treatment Model, Religious Trauma Treatment Ma Dol
definitely write this down journalist.
Speaker 2 (46:28):
Yeah, my website. You can subscribe there and I'll give
updates of when the book's coming out as well.
Speaker 1 (46:33):
And if you scroll down into the show notes of
this episode, either on YouTube or Apple or Spotify wherever
you're listening from right now, you'll be able to click
directly into Anne's website and click into every single way
that you can possibly contact or enjoy her work. Debbie,
thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 2 (46:53):
Such a pleasure, such a soulful conversation.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
Thank you, and Russo. I can't wait to get the book.
Thank you, Thank you for listening everyone. We will be
back next week now Mistaysday. The content presented on Deeply
Well serves solely for educational and informational purposes. It should
not be considered a replacement for personalized medical or mental
(47:20):
health guidance, and does not constitute a provider patient relationship.
As always, it is advisable to consult with your healthcare
provider or health team or any specific concerns or questions
that you may have. Connect with me on social at
Debbie Brown. That's Twitter and Instagram, or you can go
(47:40):
to my website Debbie Brown dot com. And if you're
listening to the show on Apple Podcasts, don't forget. Please rate, review,
and subscribe and send this episode to a friend. Deeply
Well is a production of iHeartRadio and The Black Effect Network.
It's produced by Jack Leise Thomas, Samantha Timmos, and me
Debbie Brown. The beautiful Soundback You Heard That's by Jarrelyn
(48:03):
Glass from Crystal Cadence. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit
the iHeartRadio app, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Host
Devi Brown
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