11: At Four O’Clock

It’s 1988. One summer’s day, in a sleepy suburb of Houston, a team of experienced police officers are called to the scene of the first in a series of horrific crimes. Several murders have been carried out in different parts of Texas at exactly the same time: 4 o’clock. There’s another link too, all the victims were former associates of Ervil LeBaron. The brutally executed assassinations send shockwaves through the public, and bring together investigators and prosecutors from across the country, all united in their goal of bringing the multi-generational crimewave sparked by Ervil LeBaron’s legacy to a grinding halt. But first, they’ll need to work out who, exactly, was responsible.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Yeah novel. A listener note. This episode contains violence and
content that some listeners might find distressing, including references to
child abuse. Previously on deliver Us from Herbal. I think

(00:27):
by the time hervill had died, I knew it really
wasn't over, because with such an unstable group founded on
such erroneous principles, you never really know what to expect.
I'm Gabrielle Little Baron, and my father is irvil LeBaron.
This is the book of the New Covenant. It's a
manifesto of irvill Le Baron. Coult wasn't even a word

(00:49):
reknew of. And we call ourselves the mafia. Right, So
the mafia breaks apart. One team goes against the other team.
Heber felt he had screwed up so bad. He gave
the authority to next brother in line, Aaron. This is
God's law, we have to do it. There were some
threats made against Dan Jordan's What of our lifelong dreams

(01:11):
was to get our siblings who were under Dan's spell
an Dan goes off to do his business, drops his drawers,
and two people walk up and shoe in their head
in the chest of the nine millimeter weapon. No one
seemed phase that a murder had occard. And my afterthought

(01:36):
on that is, I mean, murder was sort of a
of a natural thing with these folks, and different people
would pray. We had this thing we called a solemn
assembly where each person in that circle would say their prayer.
I'm just trying to imagine what would the prayers be like.
They would be specifically about the killings. Yes, and they

(01:57):
were trying to decide location and when where. I just
know the feeling of the meeting. It was all like,
of course, very ominous. It was June when Lucy finally
convinced her dad to let her join him in the

(02:17):
United States. I'm originally from Venezuela. I'm a six daughter
of a family of nine. Like so many migrants who
uproot their lives to cross borders, Lucy's dad's journey to
America wasn't just some grand adventure. My father was struggling
economically back in nineteen eighty seven, so he came and

(02:43):
left mom and all of us in Venezuela. Ever since
he arrived in Houston, Lucy had wanted to join him.
He seemed to have made quick work of securing his
steady income, who were so excited when he found a
job and he told us that his boss kids and
it was a very good man. Lucy was nineteen, and

(03:04):
since her dad had settled in America so quickly, she
thought why not her too? The time was right for
her to make the trip. I remember asking him all
the time, Oh, I want to go send for me,
and he was like, no, because she's going to school
and and I was like, yeah, but I want to
learn English, and so he said, okay, Well, let me

(03:26):
think about it. And she didn't have to wait long
because her dad's boss had another job, opening a nanny
for his four girls. He lost his babysitter and he
needed to find a sater to watch them. When he
was at work at the appliance business, he ran, I said,
I'll do it. I'll do it as send for me.
And he told me, okay, we'll get your visa ready.

(03:50):
So I did. Lucy arrived in the US. It was
to be the start of a whirlwind romance. Lucy's boss
was a man named Dwayne, recently divorced his wife out
of the picture. He ran his business fixing up and

(04:13):
selling appliances in Houston with help from his mother and
a couple of employees, including Lucy's dad. He'd set it
up when he moved to the Houston area in and
by this point in business was booming. That's why he
needed and could afford help with his children. But those

(04:35):
kids with a busy single dad, they needed more than
a babysitter. I just became any medium mom to four
of his gets four girls. The more time Lucy spent
with Dwayne, the more she found things about him that
she liked. He was introvert, but once you get to

(04:58):
know him, he had such a assist a humor, and
he was awesome. Dad loved loved his girls so much,
and he was just amazing, really handsome, So it was
not hard for me to fall for somebody like back.

(05:18):
He was like my friends. Shortly after Lucy turned twenty,
she was out with Duyne on a job to pick
up a washing machine. We're driving and he said, would
you marry me? And I was like yes. Given the

(05:39):
speed of their romance, Lucy hadn't had time to learn
much about Joanne's background, but she was already so close
to his kids, and she met his mom, Tholma, who
helped out sometimes running the family business. Once they were married,
Dwayne began opening up more about his life, his past,
introducing lou See two more of his family members and

(06:01):
some of his friends. On our honeymoon, we did take
a little few days off and on a honeymoon and
we went to the Hill Country. We met his sister
and her family, Ria Rina China, Joyne's sister. She was

(06:22):
super nice, super sweet to me, and we immediately just
you know, had a connection and we were a sweet
And then months later I met Mark marchin Off, Joyne's brother,
and then I met ed one day in Dallas. This

(06:42):
was Joyne's best friend, Eddie Marston, met him and his
girlfriend and even went to a Dallas Cowboy game. His
son an awesome person, Thelma, Eddie Marston, Mark and Riena
chanof the significan people in Joyne's life. But when it

(07:04):
came to actual details about his past, remember him showing
me a book of Moment and telling me a little
bit about, you know, the story behind the Book of Moment.
But he really wouldn't want any religion in his life.
I didn't know why he said to me that, you know,

(07:27):
past his past, he really wanted to put that past behind.
So it was something He really didn't even want to
bring up remember or anything like that. He just he
was done with that. You know, I don't blame him
because he drew it as a dark part of his life,

(07:47):
So I don't blame him. I just feel like I
didn't want that to be if something that got in
between us little He knew what was going to happen,
and he wanted to start a new life and you know, forget.
And I don't blame Jayne either, at least when it
comes to wanting to forget his past. He was just

(08:13):
nine years old when his family converted into Evil's Church.
Just like his sister Rena and his brother Mark, he
had little choice about entering into it. His parents, Thelma
and Bud, made that decision for their kids. Joyne was
seventeen years old when he and his brother Mark and
his best friend Eddie attacked Los Molino's indiscriminately shooting residents

(08:39):
as they ran from their burning homes and terror. I
can imagine they'd want to forget that night. Or when
Dwayne was just eighteen and he strangled to death the
pregnant Becky LeBaron holding the ligature together with nineteen year
old Eddie and leaving Becky LeBaron's body in an unmarked

(09:00):
grave in the forest. I'd want to forget all that.
I often wish I'd never learned about it. But when
I try to picture Eddie Marston, March Sanath, and Duyne Shana,
I don't know. Did they actually believe they could simply

(09:22):
move on, that their cult life was now behind them
when they abandoned Hervill's church as he sat in a
prison cell in and they walked toward new lives in Texas,
Or did they really, in their heart of hearts no,
that this wasn't over, that it would all come tearing

(09:45):
back into their lives eventually. Because if they did, if
they had even the smallest inkling that any of the
things they did in the name of Hervil le Baron

(10:06):
might come back to haunt them, then surely they would
have thought about the people who might get caught up
in their past, those who surrounded them in their new lives,
the people they loved, like Lucy or Joyne's kids, who
all had absolutely no idea about the lives they lived out.

(10:26):
Just a decade before, Eddie Marston and Mark and Dwayne
Shannath had belonged to a cult that would never let
them go. Their names were written in the Book of
the New Covenant, and one day their past would eventually
track them down. From the teams at Novel and I

(10:56):
Heart Radio, this is deliver Us from Herville, episode eleven
at four o'clock. If there was one thing that brought
Dwayne and Lucy together so quickly, it was the kids.

(11:17):
The children were the reason they met, of course, but
it was more than that. He was a very family
oriented person and so was I. So that was kind
of like a bond we had. The kids were a
shared priority, and they both adored them. Really awesome, awesome kids.
They had door their dad, and you know, they spent

(11:40):
a lot of time with him. Lucy came to love
all the kids. They were just good and sweet and
full of energy, and it was just so nice and
loving and it was a very positive experience. But some
needed her attention more than others, as actially little Jenny, Jenny,

(12:03):
she was just she got teased a lot from her
brother's you know, typical siblings, but she she was just
so loving and even though they got into little fight
and arguments, she always just loved them let them back
no matter what. She was sweet, adorable girl. Um, she's just,

(12:29):
you know, a typical eight year old, curious and excited
about life. June was a nice summer day in Houston,
not too hot. That morning, the phone rang at Dwayne
China's appliance repair shop. Joyne was out on a delivery,

(12:51):
so his mother, Thelma picked up. The caller identified himself
as Terry Phillips. He was moving from Houston and had
a used washer he wanted to sell. Thelma wrote down
the name and address. Did it seem strange to Thelma
that the address was on Rena Street, the same name

(13:11):
as her daughter? Maybe? Maybe not? Either way, she told
Mr Phillips her son Dwayne would come and pick the
washer up later that afternoon. Would he need help with
the machine? No, it was fine, He'd handle it alone.
The price offered for the machine was just seventy It

(13:36):
was low, suspiciously low in retrospect. Had Thelma called back
to check if that price was actually right, the number
would have rung and rung. The call had come from
a pay phone at a gas station. There was no
Terry Phillips. At some point after hanging up, who ever

(14:00):
had made the call had glued the phone's receiver to
the cradle so no one could pick it up, just
in case someone did call back to talk to Mr
Terry Phillips. At around the same time, five miles north,
the phone rang at Ed's Appliances and Irving, a suburb
just west of Dallas. A guy on the line named

(14:23):
Perry Wilson said he wanted to sell a used washer.
Eddie Marston agreed on a price and wrote down the
name and number and time to pick it up. If
he would have called back, the phone would have rang
and rang, because again there was no Perry Wilson. The
call had been made from a pay phone at a

(14:44):
convenience store, and now it's receiver was also super glued
to the cradle. That afternoon, back in Houston, Mark China
was kicking back in an office chair at the business
he ran Reliance Appliances. You guessed it washers and dryers,

(15:04):
the family trade. I picture him with his feet up
on the desk because he waited for customers or for
the phone to ring. And I wonder did he hear
the tires on the asphalt outside or the car pulling
up to the storefront. Did he glimpse the outlines, the
figures outside the shop window the profiles of three of

(15:27):
hervill La Baron's children, as they sat inside the approaching
car in their disguises. Meanwhile, a fifteen minute drive across town,
Dwayne Shannath was about to get in his truck to
collect the cheap washer and dryer. He was supposed to

(15:48):
go alone, but there was a last minute change of plans.
Jenny was struggling with her reading. The teacher said that
she needed to practice for reading, so he would take her.
Will leave me with the other kids at the store
and would take her with him so she could read
to him while he's working and she could practice her reading.

(16:10):
And that's what happened that day. A little before four pm,
Dwayne and Jenny got in the truck and set off
for Arena Street. Lucy would never see either of them again.
Standing on Rena Street, about twenty miles from downtown Houston,

(16:34):
the first thing you notice is how normal the area is.
There's a suburban tranquility to it, well tended lawns, there's
an American flag waving at a house across the street,
some pumpkins left over from Halloween, big magnolia trees. It's
a solidly middle class neighborhood, and considering what happened here,

(16:57):
there's sort of an eerie quality to it, just how
placid and calm it is. Monday, jun the three bedroom
brick house in front of me was vacant today. It's

(17:17):
an odd house on this street. It sort of stands
out for how it has an unkempt kind of wild feel.
At just before four o'clock, Duyne Schinov pulled up to
that house on Rena Street, but no one seemed to
be home. If Jayne had got out and asked a neighbor,

(17:41):
they would have told him the house had been empty
for a year. There had been a four cell sign
up until earlier that day. Someone had moved it that morning.
Duyne wanted to get back home and was just backing
up the driveway to leave when a black Silverado truck

(18:01):
came barreling down the street, blocking Duane in the truck
driver had short blonde hair. In the passenger seat sat
someone in a business suit with a strawberry blonde beard.
The person in the business suit got out of the truck,
Dwayne stepped from the cab of his GMC pick up.

(18:22):
They exchanged a few brief words and then the man
in the business suit pulled a three fifty seven magnum
from a shoulder holster beneath his suit coat. He then
looked up into the cab and noticed the little girl.
It was four o'clock. Back across town at Reliance Appliances,

(18:50):
Mark Snath was still sitting in that swivel chair at
his desk, but now he had bullet holes across his
face and chest, and as spreading pool of blood at
his feet. He had just been shot at four o'clock
to seconds before. In Dallas, Eddie Marston had been backing

(19:11):
his pickup into the driveway of a home on the
west side of town when a dark pickup blocked him in.
A gunman emerged, shooting Eddie in the head and chest
four o'clock. Within just four minutes of each other, four
people were dead, all glory to the Kingdom of God.

(19:39):
More after the break, we are in Huntsville, which is

(20:09):
roughly an hour in twenty minutes north of Houston, through
a pretty wooded green part of Texas, sort of forested
tall trees. We are on our way to meet with
retired detective John Burmeister. John, are you doing, Jesse? How

(20:40):
are you I'm gonna expected you. I like how the
horses they are able to just wander around the yard.
That's nice. Ship everywhere. Shut up, doll. We're an hour
roughly from downtown to Houston, but it feels like a

(21:02):
world away. Cowboy hats the gas station pasture horseship. John
Burmeister spent twenty five years as a Houston homicide detective.
We can gather up some volun chambers and sit in
the sun. How it sounds great. We're doing the interview
outside in his front yard to not disturb his wife,

(21:23):
who was inside sick the day we arrive. Occasionally a
farm truck passes by at the end of his driveway.
John is a large man, big broad shoulders, big hands,
white hair, and the way he looks at you, you
immediately get the sense this is a man not to
be fucked with. Kind of looks like Santa gone bad.

(21:46):
In the nineteen eighties, when John was working homicides, Houston
was booming. It was a pretty busy time for us.
We were probably having about five hundred plus homicides a year.
I was on the evening shift. All has had been
and uh, the evening shift comes in. It's toward the midnight,

(22:07):
and you basically if a scene comes in, if there's
a homicide, the patrol unit that gets the initial call
figures out, yeah, we need to do some investigating on
this one, and they call the office and the supervisor
decides who's going out. Un John remembers he was working
the night shift. He had just got in and was

(22:27):
doing some paperwork when he got the call. We had
no idea what we were. Well, we were getting to
there's two scenes dropped at the same time, and uh
that this lieutenant got the word that the two might
be related. My partner and I went out on one
and another team went out on the other. John was
headed to Arena Street. His lieutenant didn't tell him much.

(22:50):
The suspects were unknown. When John arrived at the scene,
crowds had already gathered. Cops had roped off the crime
scene with yellow tape. Yeah, the streets were failed with lookers,
you know, nosy folks. It was kind of chaotic. There
was a lot of blue suits, a lot of uniforms
offers there. There wasn't much of a scene to be preserved,

(23:17):
and uh, the officers that made the original call were
doing the best they could to preach or of what
that was. But everything was kind of within ten foot
of the pickup truck standing on Rena Street. John walked
over to get a closer look at the truck piece
together what might have happened. I'll warn you this next
piece of tape is very hard to listen. To skip

(23:39):
ahead about a minute and a half if you'd rather
not listen. The first thing I know, there was a
blood leaking out of the truck, and uh, I walked
to the passenger side, and I remember a little girl
being slumped over in the front seat. And it was
afternoon and the the sun wasn't high up in the sky,

(24:04):
and the light was shining through the truck. The sunlight
was shining through the truck, and uh, you could actually
see light coming through the little girl's skull from the
entrance to the exit. And that was that was the
serious thing I've seen all my life. And it just

(24:27):
it just was kind of an emotional moment there for
a little while. What did you feel in that moment? Well,
I thought about my little girls, and uh, you know,
keep thinking who would do something like that? And I
never could believe that somebody would actually target a little

(24:50):
girl like that. Moving away from the crime scene, John
approached some of the first responding officers, had his notebook out.
The investigation had begun. The officers told us that there

(25:12):
were no actual witnesses to a shooter, but there were
some people that heard the gunshots and came out and
saw some people getting into I think it was a
truck and leave. Neighbors told the detectives they'd seen a
black Silverado truck cruising the street all day leading up

(25:33):
to the shooting, and uh, we got kind of a description,
but it wasn't anything unusual, you know. It was a
guy in a suit with a beard, which really didn't
tell us a whole lot. And it turned out that
the other scene and went on Blaylock was directly related

(25:55):
because it's the same family and they were actually brothers.
Blaylock that John's referring to here is Blaylock Road. It's
a boulevard about ten miles west of downtown Houston. It's
where Mark Chinath ran his shop, Reliance Appliances. An hour later,

(26:15):
as John and his partner were arriving back at the
police station, they learned that Mark had been shot there.
The office was full of people and well I confirmed
that it was a hit and that it was kind
of hard to understand what it was all about. It first,
as John and his team prepared themselves for the investigation,

(26:37):
some of his colleagues were already with the victims families.
The first time Dwayne's wife Lucy since something wasn't right
was around five PM. More than an hour had passed
since Dwayne and little Jenny had left the house together.

(26:57):
I'm going to call him, but he's not answering. He's
not up, So I started calling. No answer, you know,
and so we probably that he was busy, me know,
outside the truck and couldn't hear the phone. Then her
phone did ring, but it was a friend of Dwayne's.
I noticed something was strange because his friend called very worried.

(27:20):
This friend had just heard the news about March not
getting shot, so he was trying to prevent for warm Wayne.
About was just stick took place and we couldn't get
a hold of them. A couple of hours passed nothing.
I'm still trying to put the bottle together with what's

(27:42):
going on. So about an hour or two, the police
come in and they tell us that that both of
them where We're dead. Okay, as I was still trying
to gather and you know, come to terms with the

(28:05):
news they just told me. I just I couldn't believe it.
To me, it was just surreal. It's like, no, you
could this is gonna be true? You know, just how
can this happen? And it just all came tumbling down.
But it was just it was so shocking. It took

(28:26):
to gus, you know, they used to come with grips
with it and who did it and why, and that's
when his past just came to the surface. That's coming up.
After the break. As police started to piece together the

(28:57):
motive behind the four o'clock murders, he told some of
the chinnav family that they wanted to take them into
protective custody for a few days. Rina Channath seemed the
most at risk. Two of her brothers had now been murdered,
one of them on a street that shared her name.
Worst of all, she had been named in hervil's Book

(29:20):
of the New Covenant too, and that meant execution. She
agreed to the protection initially, but then she went home.
She figured that if the Kingdom of God wanted her dead,
they would have killed her when they killed Mark and
Dwayne and Eddie Marston, but Rena did skip the funeral.

(29:41):
Security missures they did not want her at the funeral
because they have done that before. When Lucy says done
that before, she's talking about using a funeral as a
lure for further killings. This lure was the Colts plan
back in nineteen seventy seven with the aborted assassination attempt

(30:01):
on Hervil's brother Verlin. The police now knew about that connection,
so when it came to this funeral, they weren't taking
any chances. The funeral had been delayed so it could
take place on a Saturday. That way, off duty officers
could be called in for extra security. That day was

(30:23):
a very very sad day for all of us, and
I remember they sat down one of the main freeways,
I ten, which is super busy, it's an interstate. They
shut that down and security was really high. Over fifty officers,

(30:44):
including FBI agents, detectives, uniformed officers, and a SWAT team
armed with automatic rifles, surrounded the chapel at the Wall
Trip Funeral Home in Houston, inside the pastor of the
Church of Odd where Mark had played the Oregon and
driven the school bus for Sunday school stood before the

(31:06):
one mourners in a bulletproof vest. Three coffins of gloss
dark wood, and one tiny pink coffin stood in front
of the congregation Before they could be wheeled outside for
the ten mile trip to their final resting place. A
police dog sniffed its way around the limousines and all

(31:28):
four horses, searching for bombs. As the caskets were lifted
from the hearses police found out, creating a defensive perimeter
in the surrounding trees and tombstones. Not long after the funeral,
Rena and her mother Thelma did agree to go into
protective custody, but that didn't mean they would live their

(31:51):
lives in hiding. In fact, kind of the opposite. It
was around this time time that Rena started telling her
story to the writer Dean Shapiro for her tell All book,
where she confessed to killing Roulin Alred. The recordings you
heard in episode five. Interesting timing, and Rena wasn't done there,

(32:17):
nor was Thelma. After that. She you know, the police,
she talked to them, you know, so did Rena. They
were probably the ones that talked the most to the police.
Because of because of all the information they knew and
all the time. These former cult members were doing this

(32:38):
more than a thousand miles away in Sonora, Mexico. In
that base, they called b f A the current incarnation
of Hervil's Cult, the Kingdom of God. We're starting to
absorb the impact of the four o'clock murders. In the
immediate aftermath, they waited for news. When something very serious

(33:02):
is going on, we would do those kind of heavy
loaded prayers. So that was the spirit that we were
in in b f A. In support of the four
o'clock murders happening in the States. The group had planned
the whole hit together, not just the targets, but the

(33:25):
precise timing of the executions. We knew that if one
of the people got killed, then everybody would go in hiding,
so they had to target all people at once, and
that's why the four clock wonders happened. The killers had
to strike in unison choreographic perfectly, with the kind of

(33:50):
precision military's aspired to, and they had except well, not
quite because later when the news of the killings finally
did reach down across the border through Chihuahua and across
Sonora to Navajo. The cold we're learning of that fourth

(34:13):
unplanned murder, Jenny. The assassins had made a mistake. There
was no contingency plan for that situation, and it was
a horrific like spur of the moment, what the hell
do you do? And we never could have any witnesses, um,

(34:38):
And I know this is I hate I know this
is all public knowledge now, but I hate to talk
about it, um, But I do know that it was.
It was terrible, and we never thought of that possibility,
and like, what the hell would you do with that happened?
You know, in that situation, in a situation where there
was a possible witness, this was not vengeance. Without the

(35:03):
Book of the New Covenant for guidance, the four o'clock
Assassin's had to improvise those who participated in the four
o'clock murders. Had they killed before? I think only the
um youngest one, I think that was his first time.
The youngest one that day was seventeen year old Richard LeBaron.

(35:28):
Richard was a He was overall fun, overall laid back.
He was I don't know. He never was one of
the authorities. Never he worked really hard. They made him
work really hard. He learned how to shoot guns and
he would stay up on guard all night. But he
would make jokes out of everything. He was ready to

(35:48):
crack a joke and turn everything into a joke. I
liked Richard and that he was just fun. He was
never violent, He was never mean. He was one of
the easy going you know, never part of the patriarchy drama.
Are you know none of that? He was always one
of the kind of happy go lucky personality. It was

(36:11):
the happy go lucky Richard who shot and killed eight
year old Jenny, but the cops wouldn't find that out
for years to come. Did you notice any kind of
a change after that with those who participated? I mean,
when there would be a mission like that, did that
harden those who participated in some of these killings? The

(36:33):
hardened part happened so long before that, and there are
killings already of people much closer to us, so that
that part was much more difficult. Um, we had to
be prepared to kill the people we loved the most,

(36:55):
and that was the only way to save their souls.
They would be thankful to us in the end, because
otherwise they woul go to hell forever over our cowardice.
You have to love them so much that you have
to kill them so that they don't suffer forever, and
stealing ourselves for that reality made everything else. There was

(37:18):
nothing else that was even remotely and severe. Do you
remember who introduced you to the idea of what that was?
One of the things that we were, you know, from
the crib growing up, we always knew basically, I don't know,
how do you feel about that concept today? It's horrific?
Are you kidding? But it makes me understand. I understand

(37:41):
what it's like to live in a terrorist organization, and
like I understand how mothers who strapped bombs to their
children feel. You know, it's the most horrific thing you
could imagine, but you think you're doing it for a
higher good. It's it's it's terrible. It's yeah, it's like
satanic horrific. Despite Gabriella saying that the four o'clock killings

(38:08):
didn't further harden the group from an outside perspective, at
least it definitely changed them change their trajectory from that
path set in motion a generation before. Ever since Herville
had his own brother Joel killed by his followers. The

(38:29):
four o'clock murders reignited a nationwide hunt for the colt,
re energizing that federal investigation that had started with Dan
Jordan's killing. The FBI cops and prosecutors, working with Detective
Dick Forbes, now with a new determination that surpassed anything

(38:50):
that had come before, a fresh focus and energy and
new informants. They leaned on all their sources, put former
cult members like Thelma and Na Channath in front of
a grand jury, extracted any useful information they could get.

(39:13):
They would name this new operation after the child, the
Jenny Task Force. They were going to pursue this new
generation of hervil Abearance cult like never before, But investigators

(39:34):
were still going to need some luck and a kind
of crucial break. Journalist del van Ada had laid out
to Detective Dick Forbes all those years ago, back when
they were first uncovering the full extent of Herbal's Colt.
They were going to need to turn someone on the inside.

(39:55):
Members of the Kog itself were going to need to crack. Well.
I had happened just before Christmas. She called Forbes. Forbes
called us, and she wanted to meet us a couple
of days later, Laura after Christmas. We uh, we moved.
We had it when they came forward. That's all it took.

(40:16):
That's coming up in episode twelve of deliver Us from Herba.
Deliver Us from Herville is hosted by me jesse Hyde
and written and reported by me Leona Hamid and David Waters.

(40:39):
Production from Leona Hamid and David Waters. Sean Glenn and
Max O'Brien are executive producers. Lena Chang and Megan Oyinka
are researchers. Marianna Gongora is our field producer. Fact checking
by Donya Suleman and Sona Avakian. Production management from Shari Houston,

(41:00):
Frankie Taylor and Charlotte Wolfe. Austin Mitchell is our creative
director of production. Michae Lee Row is our managing editor.
Gavin Haynes is our head of Development. Willard Foxton is
our creative director of Development. Sound design, mixing and scoring
by Nicholas Alexander and Daniel Kempson. Music supervision by Nicholas

(41:22):
Alexander and David Waters. Our music is composed by Julian Lynch.
Special thanks to Scott Anderson. Scott Carrier del van Ada,
Pippa Smith, Saskia Edwards, Matt O'Mara, Katrina Norville and beth
Ann Macaluso, or In Rosenbaum, Shelby Shankman, and all the
team at U t A. For more from Novel, visit

(41:44):
novel dot audio