Breaking the Binary w/Addison Rose Vincent + Nicolette Mason

You might think that “breaking the binary” is only about breaking the gender binary, but there is so much more to binary thinking. 

Binary thinking refers to anytime we see the world as one way OR another. Binary thinking allows no room for the in-between. And Dominant Stories thrive on binary thinking. 

To help us explore how thinking differently about our gender, beauty fashion, and identity can help us break free from our limiting beliefs, Jess is joined by two incredible guests:

Addison Rose Vincent is an educator, LGBTQ+ advocate, speaker, and community organizer. Since coming out as trans and nonbinary in 2010, they’ve been dedicated to creating systemic change across the country. Addison eloquently breaks down what binary thinking means, and how challenging it can help us in our everyday lives. They have some pretty incredible stories to share about trans joy and gender euphoria as well! 

Nicolette Mason is a fashion writer and creative consultant, you’ve probably read her work in Marie Claire, Glamour, Teen Vogue, or Refinery29. Nicolette hones in on how binaries play out in the fashion and beauty industries. It might surprise you to learn how much of an effect these industries have on us, and especially the self esteem of women and girls. Nicolette has been working for more than 12 years to push the needle on LGBTQ+ and body-size inclusion. 

You can find Addison Rose Vincent @breakingthebinary (@breakingthebinary_ on Tiktok) or at www.breakthebinaryllc.com. You can find the Nonbinary and Intersex Recognition Project’s site, which Addison mentioned, at nirp.us. And you can find Nicolette Mason @nicolettemason or at nicolettemason.com. 

If you’d like access to resources to help you be a better ally, (or “accomplice,” as Jess likes to say), the beauty brand Dove has created “Proud To Be Me” to address topics ranging from inclusive language, avoiding misgendering, and challenging negative body talk. Go to Dove.com/ProudToBeMe to learn more. 

Please rate, review, subscribe and share Dominant Stories with everyone you know. 

If you want to learn more about Dominant Stories and how you can challenge and change them, visit jessweiner.com or follow Jess on Instagram @imjessweiner. 

You can also email us about your Dominant Stories and how you are changing them - [e-mail] or leave us a voicemail at 213 259 3033

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Shonda Rhymes and we're bringing the Dominant Stories created
by Shawn Land Audio in partnership with the self Stam Project.
Mony Ship isn't something that you just do one time.
It's a it's a philosophy as a mindset, and the
first thing that I encourage people to do in order
to challenge their current mindset is to examine their own trauma.

(00:22):
Think more about before you're trying to support other communities,
what can you do for yourself first? Hey, I'm Jess
Wiener and this is Dominant Stories, the podcast that helps
us reclaim and rewrite the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves,
about our bodies, our beauty, our creativity, and our identities.

(00:50):
Today's conversation is about the concept and the idea of
breaking the binary. Binary is, you know something we often
think of being like one thing or the other, so
we say black and white, thin and fat, male and female,
good or bad. Breaking the binary is about challenging those
limiting views, especially when it comes to body size, gender identity,

(01:14):
and what we consider beautiful. Take as an example, you know,
historically we have thought about representation in fashion and beauty industries.
If you think about the people we often see in
those worlds, we often see thin cis gendered white women,
able bodies. So my hope is that through the conversations

(01:36):
that I'm going to have today, we can challenge our
own dominant stories that might have come up around our
beauty and our identity and our body image and our
gender in order to help us really fully see ourselves
and see others. And so I've got two incredible leading
edge voices to have this conversation with today. My first
guest is going to be Addison rose Vincent. And Addison

(01:59):
is an decatur and lgbt Q plus advocate, speaker, a
community organizer. They are a force of nature and since
coming out as trans and non binary in they've been
dedicated to creating systemic change across the country. Their handle
online and the name of their business is literally Break
the Binary. And then I'm going to be joined by

(02:21):
my dear friend and possibility model, which you're gonna hear
about Nicolette Mason, who is a brand strategist and a
creative consultant and a fashion writer and you've read her
work or probably seen her work, and Reclaire and Glamour
and Dean Vogue and Refinery she spent the last twelve
years working primarily in the fashion and beauty space and

(02:43):
really helping to move the needle around size inclusivity and
the inclusivity of our l g B, t Q plus audiences.
Each of these voices for me, they really do show
you a way to be loving, kind, compassionate to yourself
while challenging some of our rigid thinking about what is
beautiful and there for what is worthy. So I cannot

(03:06):
wait for you to hear this conversation, and as always,
if you like the show, please let me know by
subscribing or writing a review wherever you're listing. All right,
let's dig in. I was so excited to have this

(03:29):
conversation with you because a big part of the episode
topic was about breaking the binary of beauty. And even
that term breaking the binary might be new for some
people listening, but it is literally your social handful, and
I know something you're equally as passionate about. So let's
just start there so we can all level set. What
do you mean when we say the term breaking the binary? Yeah, well,

(03:51):
just thank you for having me first. I appreciate this opportunity.
Break the binary to me is a philosophy right, it's
a mindset. It's beyond just in one thing. It's something
that you do every single day. To me, the binary
is referring to the gender binary of course, of man
and woman or male and female. But there's lots of
binaries that we see all throughout our lives too. We

(04:12):
see things with politics of Republican and democrat, we see
things of right and wrong, good and evil. Right, there's
lots of binaries in our lives. And when we can
break that and see beyond that binary, things in between
and outside of those binaries, we allow ourselves to really
explore more of who we are. So when it comes
to gender, when I can say break the binary, I
don't mean to say that being a man or being

(04:34):
a woman is wrong, not that entirely. What I'm saying
that is that there's more to being a man or
a woman. Yes. And the reason why I am so
devoted to exploring this term is when it comes to
dominant stories, right, the stories that we tell ourselves about
who we are, and where we get those stories is
usually in culture, media, people around us, and binary thinking

(04:56):
that rigid thinking that there are only two ways to be.
As an example, right, for me, we all get trapped
then in narrow thinking about ourselves, about others, about the
world out there. And so I'm curious, like why you
think it is important for folks to really all contribute

(05:16):
to breaking the binary. Yeah, I think that everyone, if
your trans or non binary or cis gender, we're all
impacted by this binary. I think about the ways too
that even my mom my sister has been limited to
this binary of what a woman is supposed to be, right,
being feminine, looking a certain way, acting a certain way,
having to pursue certain types of careers too. These binaries

(05:39):
are toxic. And again not to say that being a
man or woman is wrong, or being feminine or masculine
is wrong, but it's just that we have created these
stories that you're saying, these dominant stories of what a
man or woman should be, so we need to break
those down. I know there's so much more to gender,
and especially when we think about beauty. I think beauty
has often been or the ideal of beauty I should say,
has been relict gated to a certain look. But you

(06:01):
said something. I printed this out because I didn't want
to misquote it. But it's one of the core values
that you list on your website, and I love it
for a lot of reasons, but I want to read
it out loud for everybody, which says humility with understanding
that we are as people always growing and learning, we
are open minded and compassionate. I love that because listeners
will will know at the end of these shows, I

(06:22):
have a mantra that is always learning, always growing, because
for me, that was a self compassionate voice that I
needed to add into my life to remind myself. I
will not get this perfectly. You and I are going
to go into this conversation right now. I may slip
up on pronouns, I may not, you know, say something correctly.
And part of that is having the compassion to know
that it's not about being right, it's about getting it right,

(06:44):
and it's about kind of like being on the journey.
Talk to me more about that mindset. Because we have
these conversations about breaking the binary. People freak out. It's uncomfortable,
it's scary, it's unfamiliar, but so are a lot of things,
you know. I think it's terrifying because I think that's
sometimes people have a hard time really examining themselves and

(07:04):
realizing too. And I'm gonna be frank to just how
hurt we've all been by this binary way. And when
we look at where the binary was first constructed, it
was through Eurocentric colonization. You know, when I talk about transphobia,
when we talk about sexism too, and this gender binary
to these are all have been rooted in anti blackness,

(07:26):
have been rooted in colonization, and have been rooted in
this idea that being white and being a certain way
is supposed to be how it's supposed to look. Cultures
around the world, even before colonization, have always embraced people
beyond this gender binary too. You know here in Turtle Island,
you know, Native American folks too would refer to folks
beyond that gender binary is to spirit. So today even

(07:49):
in Hawaii to the term mahoo. So you know, trans
a non binary people have always been around. So when
we talk about the gender binary, it's not something that's
necessarily always been around. It's mean that was taught and
forced through violence and genocide. We have to break these
all down and realize what we've been taught is sometimes wrong.
Who we've been taught to be, and who we've been

(08:11):
assigned even at birth as that's all maybe not who
we actually are. And as you were saying with that humility,
my mantra is about always unlearning and relearning that I'm
constantly having to unlearn my own gender binary that I've
been taught. Even as a trans and non binary person,
I still slip up people's pronouns. I still make assumptions

(08:33):
about someone's identity when I first see them, you know,
slipping up. And I think that perfectionism is also a
binary thinking, a binary thinking, Yep, you're right or you're wrong.
If we don't do it perfectly, then we must be wrong.
And I love the work of Bernie Brown to talking
about how oftentimes this goes back to shame not guilt,
where we think that I've done something wrong, it's shame

(08:54):
what I am wrong exactly. I want to back up
for a second about the colonization, because I don't know
if people quite connect those two issues around sort of
the Eurocentric dominance that has happened in our culture, especially
in and around beauty. This is where we have a
tremendous emphasis on light skin, small waist, long hair, straight hair,

(09:18):
and so you know, so many I've worked with girls
for over twenty five years, right, And the number one
thing I will hear, especially from bipod girls, is this
desire oftentimes to emulate a Eurocentric beauty standard. They don't
understand where that's come from. Yeah, I mean when we
think about even just when colonization was happening, right, they
were enforcing religion, enforcing certain beliefs to and you know,

(09:39):
when we look at the history, especially if two spirit
folks and you know Mahu folks too in Hawaii, we
see that they've been completely erased and the representation of
looking and being beyond the binary and being embraced and
celebrated and seen as beautiful have been erased through colonization.
So I think that it's really revolutionary when we're seeing

(10:00):
indigenous and POC women embracing their features, embracing you know,
their beauty. But I see this with even within the
trans and non binary community, to this striving for a
certain type of beauty, that certain type of perfection, right,
and feel like an imposter if you don't fit that too,
and feeling like I must not look like a woman,
I must not look like a man, I must not

(10:21):
be who I'm supposed to be if I don't look
like that perfect white image. And I even think too
about recently, I had my facial feminization surgery, which I'm
super happy with my results. And a big thing that
actually came up in a lot of my conversations with
other trans people, especially trans women and trans feminine people,
was around noses. And it became this whole thing about

(10:43):
when we're pursuing these feminizing surgeries, why is it that
most surgeons are pushing or encouraging their patients to have
a very European type shaped nose. It's very interesting to
think about, right, what does feminine look like? Why is
that associated with European church? Why can't one be feminine,
be beautiful and have different types of futures? Yeah, can

(11:05):
you talk a little bit about your FFS surgery and
kind of what that entails? And I was, you know,
when I was reading about your process. In doing that,
I also was thinking about my trans non binary friends
who have had massive obstacles in getting surgeries, gender affirming surgeries,
or any of the surgeries that they're seeking, oftentimes because
there's such bias in the medical community. And then once

(11:26):
you get in you're talking about now sort of a
bias around what does femininity look like. But I can
only imagine how you being you get to navigate that
for your for yourself. Was it scary at all? Was
it terrifying? Oh? My goodness, Like, I mean, you're having
a huge amount of surgery on your face, right, and
I think that you know, for me, I'm planning on
having bottom surgery to for my genitalis and for that too,

(11:46):
that's leading into January. I'm terrified. I mean, it's scary
because these surgeries are new, they haven't been perfected yet, right.
But also you're putting your body in someone else's hands
and that's going to be what your body is gonna
look like for the rest of your life. So it's scary,
but it's also exciting. Yes, it's exciting to take the
reins and say I want to have a body that

(12:10):
aligns with who I am. I mean to take those steps.
But you're absolutely right. The health care industry right now
is not necessarily trans an on binary friendly, and for
a lot of folks it's hard to access those surgeries,
especially a lot of states too. We have to pay
out of pocket, like hundreds of thousands of dollars sometimes
for all different types of surgeries and procedures that make
you who you are. Let's talk about who gets to

(12:32):
gate keep femininity? Right? Who gets to be feminine? And
what does that even mean? And since gender is a construct,
where is femininity and gender? You know, connect? So maybe
I thought let's pause there for a second, because I
know we might be throwing around terms of people listening,
they're like either taking notes or wondering what's going on.
Let's talk about and I'm curious what you feel about
that phrase of gender being a construct? Can we break
that down a little bit for folks to understand. Yeah,

(12:54):
gender being a construct when it comes to gender identity,
and we really break down what does gender mean? I
think a lot of folks have a hard time explaining
what gender is, right because we think about our expression,
maybe the way that we dress and we look. Maybe
we think about our roles in our society and our
homes or families. Maybe we think about too the way
that we walk and we talk. Right, does that all

(13:15):
make up one's gender identity? Sure? Those can all be
parts of it, but it's different to each person and
in different cultures to gender looks and feels differently as well.
We've been told maybe what a woman or a man
are supposed to be and these are all assigned to
us before we're even born. And that's so wild to
me to to think about too, that based on the

(13:36):
flesh between our legs, as a developing child in the womb,
were now given all his expectations about the colors those
need to like, the toys were gonna play with, yet,
the interests, our hobbies, what our careers are going to
look like, who we're going to marry, we're going to
marry if we get married, right, exactly, all these things
are put on us even before we're born. So once

(13:59):
gender identity is in a way a construct, we have
to stop and think about, Okay, are all of those
things reasonable to expect of a person? Are all those
things going to align with who we truly are? And
we find that really it's not always the case, and
that is Okay. How do your conversations go when you're
inside more corporate structures having this kind of conversation because

(14:23):
you know, I know you now work as a corporate consultant,
You're working with all kinds of organizations. And when I
get into the psychology of it, when I work and
coach all kinds of different businesses. I mean, I really
I understand the resistance to the change, and I think
this does go back to the britt A philosophy. I
do think people feel quite ashamed. I'm curious how it
goes for you as you're having these conversations, like what

(14:45):
are the themes that you're picking up on that are
really hard for people to shake? Like what is it
that you see that is like a big obstacle for
better understanding? You know, you just use this term resistance,
and I think that that is absolutely on point. And
when I talk about trauma informed care with people too,
I get people to think about shifting our mindsets from

(15:05):
what is wrong with you to what happened to you.
So when you're when you're talking about resistant, when that
person is resistant, I take them as being distrustful or mistrustful,
meaning that maybe in their past, maybe they felt that
things have been taken from them. And so remember earlier
talking about gate keeping like womanhood or gate keeping femininity too.

(15:25):
I get a lot of women in corporate settings who
will be incredibly resistant to be talking about trans and
on binary identities. They then talking about this type of
femininity that I'm expressing today because to them. They've had
to gate keep that they've had to protect their women
had because of a world of sexism. Right, these assist
gender women. I do think women buying large in culture,

(15:48):
especially in this culture in North America, have been so
relegated to a narrow definition and going outside of the
bounds was dangerous and still is dangerous. And so when
trans people, trans women come along, FEMI and people like
myself come along, expressing ourselves in a different way and
expecting respect, expecting dignity, expecting compassion, it tugs at them

(16:08):
a bit too because of their own trauma, because of
their own trauma navigating a sexist world. Right, So going
into settings, I have to tell people, first of all,
you're not alone, and on learning and relearning, and too,
this is a safe space too. And three, your experiences
are still valid and we can hold both my experience
and your experience together. I actually also would venture to

(16:32):
say there's probably some unexamined jealousy or maybe sort of
a longing even exactly if you haven't examined your own hurt,
your own pain, the ways that you've been pushed to
that binary, the ways that you have been told you
can't be certain things too. I think about, you know,
me as a child, right growing up, I would wear
dresses and I would express myself as Dorothy from Wizard

(16:52):
of Oz, right. But I was told very early on
by my parents and by my communities too that that
was wrong. Right. And I think it too about my
sister or who used to be like a little tomboy
and stuff too that was pushed out of her. And
so going into those corporate settings, for me, I'm invited
by organizations who want to do the work right, they
have those good intentions. I also feel very grateful to
be doing this work in large systems like corporations and

(17:15):
you know, multinational institutions, because I think back to the
generations who have worked within those walls, who never had
a chance to have this conversation, yes, and who would
have absolutely had their lives changed. Should you walk in
and give a training? Hey, where are you going? There's
so much more of this juicy convo coming right up.

(17:45):
We're back. You're ready to conquer those dominant stories? All right?
Here we go. One of the conversations that I've been
getting more educational and certainly have been exploring with friends
and fellow allies and others have been. When we talk

(18:06):
about non binary, there also isn't one way to express
being non binary. And I think sometimes when we say
non binary, people think androgynous. I know I did in
the early stages, like you don't think. And I wanted
to know what it has felt like for you to
grow out your beard, and I want to know what
you're like that journey for you. Had you always been
growing out the facial hair, Is this like a new piece?

(18:29):
One of the reactions, how do you navigate? Yeah, Well,
when we met about four or five years ago, I
didn't have a beard, and at that time I also
hadn't started hormones either, too, okay, And so for me,
you know, since twentyeen, I started my hormone journey, started
developing breast, developing more hip growth, And it was in
twenty nineteen that I was just fed up with shaving.

(18:51):
I was tired of it, and I was just done right,
you know. And there was a point to where I
looked in the mirror and I would think like, Hmmm,
what is my femininity mean to me? And there had
always been this voice in the back of my head
that said, just grow out your beard, Just grow it out.
You never gave yourself a chance to do it, ever,
go for it. I growed out and I loved how

(19:12):
I looked, and I had to stop and ask myself,
what does this mean to be someone with breasts, with hibs,
with long hair, wearing makeup, and now a beard. And
I've come to the realization that my my beard is
still feminine, my femininity, this is what it is, and
that is beautiful and authentic and valid in itself. And

(19:33):
again part of going back to that de colonization mindset
to what does feminine look like? Why does it have
to be hairless? Why can't we have hair as part
of our feminity. So at the same time too, you know,
when I realized that I might see myself as a
feminine person going down the street, people will automatically try
to box me or label me as being androgynous, as

(19:56):
being masculine because I have a beard, because I have
a deeper voice, right and for me, I also recognized
to that being non binary can look however you want.
You know, have a beard, have no beard, have breasts,
have no breast, whatever you want. And also that also
applies to manhood and womanhood too, that you don't have
to look a certain way for your gender to be

(20:17):
validated by others. As long as you can validate your
own gender, that's all that matters. You know. It struck
me when you were talking about Wizard of Oz Dorothy
because you use that a lot as a metaphors role model,
and I was thinking about the journey of Dorothy is
about coming home and herself, and the opportunity to go
home was always there, but she only was able to

(20:38):
come home after she realized she got out of the
black and white all the color. Yes, right, So again
realizing too that we think in a binary to that
black and white, thinking that you have to be masculine, feminine, man, woman,
straight or gay the only option. But when we see
that there's so much more between those on those spectrums,
we can realize and finally come home to ourselves. Yeah,

(21:00):
do you feel like you're at home in your body?
You know? Yes? And my home is constantly being renovated.
WHOA snaps to that. I agree, right, it's an ongoing
piece of art. It's like work in progress. I think
that when we think about being healed, it's a destination,
but it's a journey. It's a journey, not about setting

(21:21):
up ideas of what I should look like or what
I need to be forever, but just living in the moment.
And I think that's also part of that perfectionist mindset.
We set ourselves up for these big goals, these big
ideas of what we're supposed to be, and if we
fall short, then we get disappointed, that shame comes up again.
So we have to just live in the moment. You know,
That's so much a part of my journey and how

(21:42):
we even came to have this show about dominant stories
was I, you know, had an awakening. I'm well into
heading into the latter part of middle age in my life,
and I looked at the very binary way that I
was living my life as far as what I thought
was good or bad, or right or wrong or perfect
or not perfect, and it got me in to a
pattern of hustling for my worth in a way that

(22:04):
left me so sort of vacant at home around like
what really mattered. And so I kind of have this
platform now around building a good life, not a perfect one,
good one what's good for you? Because I was very
externally motivated. I think a lot of people are. I
think that binary thinking gets validated by culture. So if
I fit within these lines, then I get the pat

(22:26):
on the head, the approval of the gold star, and
I feel like I belong, but I want to belong
to me. So the dominant stories piece came when I realized, like, wow,
I'm led by dominant stories that I didn't write for myself,
whether that is what I was supposed to look like,
what I was supposed to earn or where or marry
or be. And there's an incredible power in coming back

(22:48):
home into your body, but there is also a lot
of pain in is shoeing what has been deemed a
cultural norm. Yes, well, I mean it's painful to feel
like the only one right when looking at like you're
saying those dominant stories in media, in film, in books,
where there's very few stories beyond those binaries, right, it

(23:09):
feels really isolating. It feels like you're the only one.
And for me, you know, talking to about feeling like
you don't belong and feeling you have to constantly prove
yourself to that's such a big thing. I think that
even within trans and non binary communities, but in communities
in general, to feeling you have to prove yourself to

(23:29):
be worthy of these spaces. And so I even think
too about ways that when I navigate corporate settings or
I navigate different places to even going out to restaurant,
about how can I prove myself as worthy of respect
as a trans and non binary person. And that's so exhausting.
I was just thinking that, it's literally exhausting. It feels

(23:50):
my numbing, you know. The other day too, I was,
you know, being referred to another client from one that
I worked with, and they see seen me on the email,
and I saw some of the previous emails and they
describe me as non threatening and it caught me off
guard a bit too, because I had to sit with
that and think about is that a good thing or
a bad thing? Right? Is this something that I want

(24:13):
to be labeled as to be in a place where
I'm accommodating. Well, there maybe so much patience, so much
compassion for people, so much room for them to grow,
that maybe I end up coming off as non threatening
And does that then cause them to really think about
the messaging I'm trying to get across too, doesn't make
any sense? Yeah, it makes tons of sense. On what

(24:33):
I'm sitting here. My my face is scrunched because I'm thinking, God, dang,
that is so much labor. Yes, actually to come into
a room and hold space for somebody else's understanding of you,
and then you're also packed with like the worthiness piece
of like why don't they just see me as worthy?
Why am I working so hard? Right? Feeling like exhausted

(24:55):
having to prove yourself so often too? And when I
look at cycles of imposter syndrome, you feel like you
have to prove yourself and then you have to work
harder than everybody else. And every time we keep achieving
things and doing better and maybe going up to ladders
within our organizations or businesses to or getting new opportunities,
we keep thinking I only got it because I put
in that extra effort, and it's not because of who

(25:17):
I am or what I can bring to the table,
but because I worked a little bit hard, And then
that becomes a dominant story. I don't deserve this, right,
I'm not worthy of this, And that's the unpacking that
I want to do. Um. There was one concept that
I was interested in going there with you on, which
is about the idea of gender euphoria. Can we talk
about that a little bit. Let's define that terminology that

(25:37):
I want to know. When have you felt gender euphoria
for sure? Well, I contrast that with gender dysphoria. Gender
dysphoria is really this feeling that you're not necessarily stuck
in the wrong body, but really that maybe how the
world perceives you, or how you perceive yourself in the
mirror that doesn't match with who you really are, that
your body and your gender somehow, maybe there's that disconnect, right,

(26:00):
So euphoria. Gender euphoria revers to those times when you
are seen as who you are, that your gender is validated,
maybe by others, but by yourself, even to you look
in the mirror and you're like, I see me, that's me.
You know. I find gender euphoria when I maybe I
throw my makeup and I'm expressing my femininity in certain ways.

(26:20):
Maybe when I'm looking in the mirror and I see
how my body has changed with my hormones, I'm like, dang, okay,
look good, right. Or maybe it's that when people just
use my pronouns correctly. I'm so used to people miss
gendering me that it's unfortunately when people do gender me
corrects relief, it's a relief, there's that sense of euphoria.
I wish it was just a normal thing, right, But
that's what euphoria looks like to me. And it's so

(26:42):
important for us to talk about trans joy, non binary
joy within our community because so many of the dominant
stories they're negative. Those dominant stories about you know, the
news of trans women of color, especially black trans women
the United States being more vulnerable to murder coming well,
that's the only way we hear about as women usually
exactly right. Although those issues are so so important, we

(27:04):
also don't get enough stories told about the joy within
our community. That's why I love stories like when Pose
came out right, and even with Legendary on HBO too,
I know that within the ballroom community folks are feeling
like I don't know about Legendary. It feels cool and
it's really cool to see trans and non binary people
on the screen having their stories told and not at
being necessarily just about their identity, but about this art

(27:26):
and craft that they bring as well. So I think
that having more stories is so so important. I was
watching something that you I think there was something you
put up on your social you were giving almost like
a tutorial, but you were talking about the process that
you experience going out publicly in the world, I think
with your beard, and you were walking us through like

(27:48):
you went to like a public place with friends where
you felt comfortable, and like going to the grocery store.
I just remember for me, I mean, look, I can
often relate in similar ways in that I was walking
with my husband one day, I think we or I
don't wear and walk somewhere, and I was telling him
about the phenomena that most women are folks might have
in putting their keys in between their fingers if I'm

(28:08):
walking in a parking garage at night, and I don't
think twice about it. I just these are things that
as a woman, I've been programmed to kind of be
aware of who's around me, my circumstances, who's under the car,
who's around the car, Like they're just this like hyper
hyper intensity. And when I saw you, you were talking
about how to create a safe place for you to
be out in the world, like whether that was going

(28:29):
to the grocery store, going to the movies, or going
to a restaurant. It just really made me sit and
think how much again, labor hoot emotion goes into that
I'm cure. I'm just curious how if you remember that
piece and how you felt about sharing that kind of information. Yeah,
it's exhausting. I mean you completely UNDERSTANDE talking about the

(28:52):
keys and your knuckles right and having to check everything. Yeah,
there's so much anxiety going out looking the way that
I do. Then it's not because as of me feeling wrong.
I'm worried about how the people are going to react.
And that's just a fact. I've been in places in
Los Angeles traveling to where I'm expressing myself this way,
and people take it upon themselves to harass me, say

(29:14):
something to me, threaten me, and it's very scary. And
for a while, I let those voices dominate, right, I
let those stories control how I would navigate the world.
And I think I've gotten to a place now where
I've realized that life is just too goddamn short and
I just need to just be me. And if people

(29:36):
are going to take it upon themselves to express their
own pain and project that onto me, fine, that's their
own ship. That has nothing to do with me. It's
all about them. And so I've had to work up
and build up my own confidence and self esteem after
all those experiences, to be who I am and to
be proud going out into public and not even make

(29:57):
it a big statement either, to just go to the grocery,
live your life. We'll get your bananas, exactly exactly. It's
just it's sad to have to do this, but I
know that there's other people like me too, that are
still struggling with feeling empowered to walk out into the
world looking and expressing your femininity or masculinity or androgenous

(30:19):
expression in the way that other people are uncomfortable with.
Some of those steps for me have included just starting
with small goals. We're talking about protectionism again. The goals, right,
we're going to fail. So if we start with small
things like just going out the door, get to get
fresh air, walking around for a block, around with your pattern,
something like that, starting small, building yourself up and knowing
that if your safe space is your home or some

(30:39):
other place, to start there and build your way out
slowly but surely. And the other thing too, I recommend
is going out with friends. I feel so much safer
when I'm with my partner Ethan. I feel so much
safer when I'm with maybe three or four friends. So
finding community and finding community spaces is so awesome and
going to safe places, like I go to certain bars,

(30:59):
I go to certain restaurants because I know that the
patrons there are also going to be trans and non
binary or they're not going to give a ship right. Right.
For such a long time, I was going on vacations
shaving my beard. Even since growing my beard, I would
shave my beard or pluck my beard. That would take
four hours, by the way. I would do all that
because I was so scared about going abroad how people

(31:20):
would treat me. I've gotten to this place where I'm
just I'm tired of that. I'm just going to be
me going forward. What do you think for somebody listening
who's like now, has gone on this journey with us
in this conversation, who maybe is an ally and I
would encourage them to become an accomplice, right, to actually
put some skin in the game, and like, you know,
what are some of your takeaways or advice? Maybe let's

(31:40):
start with parents or mentors, folks that are working with
young people. You know, when I do trainings and I
go into organizations and people always ask me, what are
the steps to becoming an ally. I sometimes give some
general steps and things to do, but again, ally ship
isn't something that you just do one time. It's a
it's a philosophy, it's a my set to And the

(32:01):
first thing that I encourage people to do in order
to challenge their current mindset is to examine their own trauma,
to examine what they've been taught growing up, and think
more about before you're trying to support other communities, what
can you do for yourself first? Because maybe there's a
parent or a mentor a guardian out there too right
now that's listening, and maybe they haven't ever thought about

(32:24):
their own gender identity. You have permission to think more
about yourself first, think more about your own journey, examine
that process and challenge it to I talk a lot
about in my trainings to intergenerational trauma and how parents
and grandparents will be passing down all the things that
they've been conditioned to the things that they experienced. So

(32:45):
that's all being passed down and we have to learn
to break the cycle first. There and your alley ship
will come along right after. I agree, and I would
add to the consistency matters. I think that that consists
and see is what is so important that it's not
a one and done. It's not a square on Instagram,
it's not a national day. It's not a statement that

(33:07):
your company puts out and that your company puts ours
a lot of press release. It is just for me.
It's a commitment to where humanity has been, where it
needs to be, where it's you know, growing. And I
feel like the biggest blessing I'll take away from being
able to have this conversation with you is the permission
to unlearn and relearn yes or there was a break

(33:29):
that idea that there's a right story and a wrong story,
that there's a hero and a villain, or complex human beings,
and we deserve to have all parts of us seen invalidated.
Amazing Addison. Where can people go to get involved in
something you care about or help support your work? How
can folks find you? I'm you know, I'm the former
executive director of the non Binary Intersex Recognition Project and

(33:52):
we were instrumental in passing X markers on state ideas
and birth certificates in California. So oh, there's not just
male and female as options, but you have X as
a potential third option. To on your ideas, So I
definitely recommend folks checking out that organization seeing how you
can get involved in advocating for and supporting intersection non

(34:13):
binary people across the country. And if you want to
follow me and get more information about what I do
and see more of my post and my work, you
can always follow me on Instagram at Break the Binary.
You can follow me on TikTok at break the Binary
underscore um, and then you can also check out my
website too so that if you want any training or
additional services for your company, organization, or school, check out

(34:34):
www dot Break the Binary LLC dot com. Amazing. You're
the best. Thank you, Thank you, Jess, You're amazing. We've
been talking with Addison about breaking the binary through the
lens of gender and identity, and after this break, I'll
be back speaking with Nicolette Mason on how she's breaking

(34:54):
the binary of who we see front and center in
the beauty and fashion industries. Don't go anywhere without further ado.

(35:19):
We're back with fashion writer and consultant Nicolette Mason. Nicolette,
I'm so excited to have this conversation with you. When
I was thinking about the idea around challenging binary thinking
and the categorization that we've created a lot of industries,

(35:43):
but especially within the beauty and fashion space. I knew
I wanted to talk to you about this. For you,
why is breaking the binary behaviors in the fields of
fashion and beauty so important for you? It's such a
huge question. I think fashion and beauty really do set
a standard. So much of the way we culturally form

(36:05):
our opinions on everything. Everything visual really leads back to
the fashion and beauty industries. We see that in television,
we see that in film. We see that just culturally
and the way people are treated and the way hierarchies
are formed in society. We see that through even job

(36:29):
place discrimination, and so it's it's not just about fashion
and beauty, which I think can kind of be tucked
away as this kind of superficial world. It permeates into
every part of the fabric of our society and culture.
Because our culture is so visual. This isn't just a

(36:50):
natural pecking order. It's literally by design, and we have
an opportunity people who work within these industries to change
the design line of these systems to be more inclusive
and to really reflect the beauty of the world around us.
And by the way, both things can be true, right,

(37:11):
we can benefit from these systems and be discriminated against.
Absolutely in these systems. I heard something I think it
might have been a clip, and I can't remember where
I heard it of you talking about the early impact
that fashion left for you as a per person, of
what you thought you could wear, what you thought you
were able to quote unquote get away with, and kind

(37:31):
of how that helped to shape early identity for you. Absolutely,
I think in terms of my queer identity, in terms
of the body that I inhabit, I've always been larger
plus size. Even as a child and adolescent, I was
outsized of most clothing and fashion like I never really
had my limited to moment or like shopping at Abercrombie

(37:53):
as a teenager, and um, that's such a universal experience
for so many people. It really did shape the way
I saw myself and then also the way that I
thought I had to present in order to be respected
or taken seriously or be seen as desirable or when
I entered the workforce, what made me a hirable candidate.

(38:18):
And I mean that on its own is such a
mind melt because we hear so often dressed for the
job you want. How do you do that if that
fashion is not accessible to you? How do you fake
it till you make it? If none of those pieces
of the wardrobe and the costume that is assumed of
a person in a certain position is remotely available to you. Yes,

(38:43):
I mean I so relate to that, you know. To me,
it's also about self expression. I think both vehicles right
to express who we are fully, and when the materials
aren't there to play in that space with fullness, you
get the message loud and clear. At least I did
that you don't matter much or you're not as important.
And you talked about that hierarchy and that it's manufactured,

(39:04):
but it is so impactful when you're a kid and
you can't get in. Yeah. And not just for kids,
I mean, of course, for kids who are so impassionable
and so vulnerable to external messaging. But I think that
people as a whole, especially women, people who are socialized
as women, who are seen as women or as thems.

(39:25):
Our value is assessed based on our appearances. That is
a real piece of the way our our culture works.
It's not a good thing in my opinion, but it
is very much reality for many people. And so it's
how does a grown adult build their own sense of
self and sense of self confidence when externally they're getting

(39:49):
messaging that they're not worthy, they're not desirable, they don't
deserve to be in beautiful fashion or to be seen
as beautiful. And I think that's one of the most
powerful things about representation and having inclusive beauty and fashion campaigns.
It's not going to fix everything, but it does have

(40:09):
an impact on the way people see themselves and the
way they see each other. And I find that so
incredibly impactful in a way that I really don't think
can never be discounted. I agree, but I want to
make sure everybody listening to gets a chance to understand
the hierarchy where we talk about that this binary way

(40:30):
of thinking who deserves fashion, who doesn't, who's in who's out?
That's been constructed, and can you talk a little bit
about some of the reasoning behind that construction so that
we're not abstractly talking about, you know, a system that
we're not quite comprehending. But there's an historical purpose as
to why this has existed. Yeah, definitely, there's historical context

(40:52):
to it. The way the fashion industries have operated for
the last couple hundred centuries have really been built on
exclusivity and aspiration, and the way that has functioned is
that you have a set of gatekeepers, um fashion media
like Vogue and a Win Tour and so on, and

(41:14):
also legacy fashion brands, so brands like Chanel, like Gucci,
Liked or they have set the tone and the standard
for the rest of the fashion industry for over a
hundred years. Part of that thinking is that the more
exclusive this upper echelon of capital f fashion is, the

(41:38):
more people aspire to want to be part of that
system and want to be part of that cast and
want to bite into it, creating a system where everything
else in the fashion industry, whether that's high street fashion,
department stores, contemporary brands, are borrowing from the standards and
trends that are set. There are some back and forth

(41:59):
some times, like trends do come from streetwear often and
make their way up to high fashion, so it's not
strictly one or the other, but for the most part,
for over a hundred years, that has been the way
the standard has been set. Yeah, and you talk about
the gatekeepers and I think that's very similar to a

(42:20):
lot of industries. Right, What is it, in your opinion
that is such a hard get for fashion to recognize
that there are plus size large bodies who are beautiful
and fashionable, who have money to spend, who you know,
can rocket like anybody else. Why is this still such

(42:42):
a conversation around is there an audience there? I put
this product in store and it doesn't sell. It's just
still is such a binary way of looking at our consumer.
Over the last few years there's been a really big
confrontation in the fashion industry and calls for accountability, really
reckoning with the industry's racism, um and legacy of racism

(43:06):
and fat phobia. Beyond that, it's honestly, it's not that
they don't know there's value there, it's that they don't
want to. They're choosing not to, and the excuses that
they give, whether it's that the fabric costs more, let's
just be very clear, that is a total BS can answer.

(43:27):
But what phrasing like that does is put the onus
and responsibility on the customer so that those brands don't
have to be responsible. And it's saying, actually, it's it's
your fault that your clothing requires so much more fabric,
and that's bullshit. It's very dishonest way of getting around

(43:47):
serving a customer base. Sixty eight percent of American women
wear plus sizes, and that's a size squortine or higher.
They're also the most disenfranchised from being able to participate
in fashion. I believe the statistic is something like sevent
of all product in the top twenty five retailers in

(44:09):
America are available to plus size customers, even though they
make up close to seventy of the population. Yeah, I
think about all of the all of the dominant stories
that have happened in my life when I haven't been
able to shop in the same store as my friends.
There was not a store I could go to the
Beverly Center that carried above a size fourteen. Do you

(44:31):
have an entire shopping center in one of the largest
cities in our country that you know didn't have any accessibility. Also,
think about gender with beauty quite a bit, So you've
worked kind of parallel. I think obviously you've worked a
lot in fashion and continue to do so, and you're
an incredible influencing voice and strategist in the beauty space
as well, and how revolutionary it feels to see more

(44:56):
non binary folks and men in cosmetic ads and the
play with makeup there. Talk to me about that, that
meeting in and around gender and kind of breaking the
binary for that with beauty. Absolutely, yeah, I think beauty
has been historically or not historically. Actually that's a that's
a very interesting thing because cosmetics, when you look at

(45:17):
history as a whole, we're not just for women at all.
Quite the opposite, right is so yeah, historically that has
not been the case, but as far as our lifetimes,
beauty has been very much gendered as feminine, and over
the lost decade that has definitely shifted a lot. There

(45:42):
are a lot of like boys and beauty that's what
they call themselves and I love it. And then of
course making more room to center trans and non binary
people and beauty has been really beautiful to see. However,
not necessarily the prestige beauty brands. And that's where it
comes back to what is the role of the gatekeepers

(46:05):
in the fashion and beauty industries in changing some of
these conversations. It is brands like Sephora, It's brands like
Alta who have taken a really strong position. Brands like
Nors have been really incredible in casting gender, nonconforming and
non binary people, as well as a lot of the

(46:26):
indie brands and makeup artist lead and founded brands. But
the prestige brands, the capital F fashion brands that have
huge beauty counters and presence in every department store in
this country, they are a little later to the game,
and I'm very, very curious to see what it will
take for them to catch up to this conversation. I

(46:49):
think the same way I think in these Capital F
fashion brands and these big beauty brands, I think the
lore of exclusivity still remains with so much I s
embedded in that that, even consumer demand, even cultural change
and attitudinal shifts. I want to believe that we're going
to get there. I too, am going to be watching

(47:10):
to see what finally breaks that open. Yeah. I focus
a lot as a consultant. I know you do too,
on intersectionally honoring people's lives. Right, we have so many
different identifiers from race and age and gender, and I
want to talk about where we're heading, but I want
to kind of think about it from a personal lens
with you. Can you talk about all of your identifiers

(47:30):
and how you move as Nicolat Mason in the world.
So God, I mean for me to go through mine
my identifiers, I feel like I turned into like a
little bit of a meme. Like I've been on panels
before where they're like diversity panels and they're like, oh,
well you're you're the plus sized diversity. I'm like, am

(47:52):
I is that? Is that like the only thing that
I am embodying. Yeah, So I don't even know where
to begin. There's so many isms that I have attached
to me. I have an Iranian mom and an English father,
so I am mixed ethnically. Um, I'm also Jewish, I'm

(48:13):
a lesbian them identifying, and I am a millennial. And
then something that I am working on recognizing as part
of my identity is the disability piece. I have multiple

(48:35):
invisible disabilities that are definitely shaped my awareness and understanding
of the world, my experience of the world, and I'm
working on making that part of um who I am
and who I share with the world. Also, that's incredible.
I mean, first of all, Nikola is available for all

(48:56):
your bookings of diversity panels for now. No, but you know,
it's so beautiful is that this is part of cultural
fluency for people right now in in breaking the binary
means it's going to get uncomfortable for folks, right So,
folks that are unfamiliar with concepts or language or terminology
are going to be afraid to stumble. And one of
the things that I have noticed in my work that

(49:18):
is tripping people up a lot is our conversation around
gender and pronouns. Do you feel like people have to
get it or do you feel like people just have
to learn how to respect it? Because I think there's
two different lines of reasoning here, of trying to get
everybody to understand gender is created versus this is how

(49:39):
you respect another human being. Yeah, you don't have to
understand it. I don't think you have to understand it.
I don't think anyone needs to understand things in order
to respect them and also just respect a person's choice
and desire. I think a really good example of this
is my mom, who is in her sixties. English is
not her first language. Does my mom necessarily have an

(50:01):
incredible fluency on gender identity and queer issues. No, But
I think she also knows that the people in my
life are people that I really love and that my
mom really loves. You know, she met them as people
who presented as women or were socialized that way, and
now they are using the then pronouns. She really makes

(50:23):
an effort and does it. To me, that's all that matters.
You don't have to understand gender identity. You don't have
to understand a person's personal journey with gender, but you
can call them by the name they want to be called,
use the pronouns that they want to be used. If
my mom can do it, we can do this, y'all. Um.

(50:46):
I mentioned before kind of the content that you put
out there in addition to your brand strategy work. It's
very thoughtful. It's highly curated, I think, with message and intent,
which I appreciate. What do you think that younger Nicolette
would say to you now? Would she be surprised at
the life that you're living now, the life that you've created. Yeah?
I think that the younger version of me would be

(51:08):
really really surprised that she could be fat and queer
and chronically anxious and also really really happy and successful. Yeah.
And every time I talk about this, I feel like
I'm gonna cry, But like so much of my life

(51:29):
is in service to my younger self. Same so much
of my life, and I think part of why you
and I and so many people are called to do
this work is because we know that there are younger
versions of us right now that are out there. Yeah,
I also am getting emotional because I think if I

(51:49):
at twelve, with my ethnically ambiguous giu fro and buck
teeth and tan skin, that was not cool to be
tanned back in the day. And if I think about
if I would have been able to see in Nicolette
Mason and Gabby greg if I would have been able
to see somebody like Christian Ciriano making beautiful clothes for
all bodies, Like I think about what my life would

(52:12):
have been like, and I think just by being visible,
we change so many people's lives. I think my whole
you know motto is about helping people to feel seen, heard,
and understood, and I do that in a number of
different ways, but at the core of it, You're right,
it's in service to the girl who looked at the
world and didn't see it reflect back what she wanted,
what she needed to feel at home. So I'm kind

(52:33):
of a big piece of of of advice to to ask.
But for those people who are listening to you who
want to challenge and change and rewrite the dominant stories
that they've had about their belonging, if they want to
feel more connected to their beauty and their self expression,
is there a piece of advice that you would give
them that's a tried and true for you. Yeah. I

(52:55):
think the essence of it for me is to focus
on everyone else and their story, their formula, their narrative,
their path to success, and focus on what makes you you,
what makes you unique different, What are the parts of

(53:16):
you that can't be replicated by everyone else. The parts
of me that felt different, that felt other were for
a long time parts of myself that I minimized, and
it wasn't until I really embraced them that my path
became really clear and my purpose became really clear to me.

(53:38):
I've been able to find a place where it's not
just in service to the younger me, but also in
service to everyone else who didn't feel seeing her recognized
in fashion and beauty, which is incredible for parents, listening, teachers, mentors,
folks that want to be a better ally or accomplice

(53:58):
to the people, young people in their lives, especially when
we're talking about gender identity, and you know, in folks
who are breaking the binary in their in their own
lives and may be surrounded by adults who don't fully
get it. What advice would you share for adults to
step in and step up? I think there are a
lot of tangible actions people can take. One of the

(54:20):
simplest actions I think people can take, as if they
are on social media, to diversify the content that they're consuming.
It makes such a difference to hear a plurality of
voices and points of view and experiences, seek out people
who are different than you, who are trans, who are
gender nonconforming, who have disabilities, and who speak to their

(54:42):
experiences on all of those in a really authentic way.
It's so simple, but I think that in having a
plurality and diversity of role models and voices that we
are hearing and listening to, that it then makes a
really big difference if a child comes to you and

(55:05):
feels a certain way X, y Z, and you could say, hey,
there's this person. I really believe in possibility models being
a huge piece of the puzzle and how people see themselves.
If there aren't possibility models. People don't know that they
can be. I have never heard that term before, but

(55:25):
can I can I use that. I love the idea
of possibility models, like I think that's such a beautiful
way to talk about options, to talk about inspiration without
it feeling like you've got to be the one, one
size fits all answer. I love possibility models. Yeah, sometimes
you have to see something as possible to believe it.
That's what possibility models mean to me. It's it's knowing

(55:49):
that there can be someone who embodies X Y Z
characteristic and they are killing it in life and they're
thriving and they're happy, and that's really really important on
a personal level, but also in the ways we see
other people and what their potential can look like. I
love it, Nicolette Mason, You're my possibility model, and I'm

(56:12):
so grateful that we got to have this conversation and
I look forward to fighting the good fight with you
who Thank you so much for having me be part
of this. Oh my goodness, these are two individuals that
I could and would love to sit and talk to
you for so much longer. I hope you enjoyed that
convo and got a lot from the nuance and the heart,

(56:35):
and the humor and the passion. Here are the top
takeaways for me. I think Addison really drove home such
an important point that if you are looking to become
a better ally or what I like to call an
accomplice in supporting folks in your life, one of the
best things that you can do is to examine your
own relationship with your upbringing, with your trauma, with the

(56:57):
norms that you grew up with that might have led
to buy binary thinking. And remember we're not just talking
about binary in relationship to gender identity, but Addison mentioned,
you know, even the idea of perfectionism is binary in thinking, right,
it's perfect or it's a failure. Binary thinking is a key,
key part of dominant story DNA. And then Nicolette Mason

(57:19):
gave me literally my new favorite terminology, which is a
possibility model, you know, the idea that you can see
yourself and the possibility to live a life more on
your own terms. By learning about the stories and seeing
the lives of other people. That really lit me up
and talking about we are always unlearning and relearning, not

(57:40):
just about this but honestly about everything. As we're gonna
be challenging status quo, as we're gonna be challenging dominant
stories and dominant culture and binary industries. We're always going
to be unlearning and relearning. And both of my guests
had great advice for those that are listening who are
parents and teachers and educators who want to help in
inspire and support a young person in your life. Things

(58:03):
that you can do that are very tactical, like diversify
your social media feed. I think nicolete used the word
involve more plural voices in the content that you consume.
The more you're filled up with a variety of stories,
the more you can offer those stories as possibility models
for the young people in your life. And specifically, if
you are looking for more tangible tools, I would love

(58:26):
for you to check out the resources at dove dot
com slash Proud to be Me. Dove has created incredible
body positivity tools for l g B t Q plus
youth and the adults that support them that really explores
beauty beyond the binary and gender identity, and it gives
some really tangible guides on accurate and inclusive language including

(58:48):
pronouns and how to avoid miss gender ing and how
to forgive yourself, move on and keep going forward if
you do make a misstep, because again, we are always
un learning and we are always re learning. And of course,
if you're interested in learning more about dominant stories and
how to change them, I teach workshops on this stuff.

(59:09):
You can find me at Jess Weiner dot com or
follow me at I'm Jess Weiner on Instagram. And of
course we always want to hear from you, so if
you want to tell us how you're challenging, changing, rewriting
your dominant stories, you can email us at podcast at
dominant stories dot com or leave me a voicemail at
two on three to five nine three zero three three.
I'll leave all this info in the show notes. Dominant

(59:39):
Stories with Jess Weiner is a production of Shonda land
Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts
from Shonda land Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.