Dan the Man • EP114

Paul Johansson aka Dan Scott is here! The Drama Queens consider Paul their "big brother", always protecting them and giving them much needed advice (including teaching them everything they know about wine).

Find out what Paul really thinks of his character, as he reveals the drama of being Dan Scott...strangers don't want to sit next you on a plane and (true story revealed) some even attack you in the street!

Plus, hear how a broken heart ended Paul’s professional Olympic basketball career, the surprising life path he almost took, and how the desire for a family led him down a road to us as everyone’s favorite "bad dad" on One Tree Hill.

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
First of all, you don't know me. Were all about
that high school drama Girl Drama Girl, all about them
high school queens. We'll take you for a rod in
our comic Girl cheering for the Drama Queens Girl Fashion,
but you'll tough go. You could sit with us Girl
Drama Queens, Drama, Queen's Drama, Queen's Drama, Drama, Queen's Drama

(00:22):
Queens is Pajama week on Drama Queens. We are together.
I hope you were able to join us for our
live event, which was super flirty, so fun. But now
that we've gotten to work in pajamas, I don't know
why we would ever work in normal clothes again. I

(00:42):
feel like this needs to become our new staple. Yeah,
we loved it, and we decided that since we're together
for the weekend, we might as well just be in
pajamas and drink champagne the whole time. Lamour cheers. Well
today we've been Sophia you because you said that. Go ahead. Guys. Normally,

(01:03):
when we have our favorite friends and guests come on
the show, you know, we we get on here in
the three of us, we talk about the episode, we recap,
and then we welcome them in. But we have been
talking about today's guest, I think every single time we've
gotten together since we started this, and we really just
want to get him in the room, so we'll talk
about the episode with him. Please welcome our favorite bad dad,

(01:26):
Pat Johnson as Dance Scott. Where you at bad Dad?
Look bad daddy? Is you are so swarthy? Look at
this bone structure? Where drink? Where is a drink? To Paul?

(01:46):
A toast to Paul Johanson, who was our favorite wine
connoisseur on the set of One Tree Hill. We took
care of all of us. You made sure we got
home safely. Advice giver, I mean talk about advice skiver.
You were always our champion. You were like the cool

(02:07):
big brother we all wished we'd had. You're the reason
that any of us knows how to drink wine. And
honestly you, Oh, I don't want to go for it?
Do it? And we've had an emotional morning, had a
really emotional morning. Um, Paul, you were really like you
were our north star. You were the man who kept

(02:27):
us safe. Hi. I agree, so Hi, and we love you.
Thank you. I Oh wow, we've been crying all day.
He's not bad real life guys, He's really lovely. He's
really the We love you so much. You always looked
out for us. It's very sweet and very important for

(02:53):
me to hear that from you. Thank you for saying that,
all of you. Um, it means a lot. I don't know,
I mean, I just want well, first off, I want
to say that, you know, I know that Willie was
really close too. I know, especially you helped. And I
know that I've been him a few times at Chris
Nol's house and a few places, and what an amazing

(03:14):
soul of a man, just a beautiful person. And so
I feel your loss and I want to tell you that, well,
it feels really nice to be with R. O. T.
H family, you know, like our white collar family is
so awesome and so strong, and it's so weird to
think that casting directors have so much control over the

(03:35):
friendships and the families that we form, but it's true.
And you know, to run into the arms of the
girls here today and to you know, talk with you,
it feels good to be surrounded by our chosen family.
And you know, because the casting really kind of nailed
it on this one. Yeah, like all of us. Well,

(04:00):
we want to talk about your career because you when
did you start acting? You were a young whipper snapper
like we were when you what was it soap? I mean,
take us through how you got started. Well, oh, my gosh,
it is. It's a bizarre story, but it's nauseam. I

(04:22):
was in love with a girl that does it and Um.
I was in college and I was thought I was
going to be playing in the NBA, and I was
put the plane on the Canadian national team, traveling the
world and having these beautiful experiences with all these basketball players,
and thought I was gonna go to the Olympics. And
I got cut. Malise, when I got cut, and I

(04:44):
will say this, I really believe this in my heart.
Was my girlfriend and I broke up a week before
the Olympic training period started. When I got there, Oh
you were hard. This is like a storyline from the show.
Yeah really, Nathan um and Um, the coach of Missige, said,
I just I can't. I can't take you with us.

(05:06):
It's just And during that time, I was in these
um classes in Vancouver, these theater sports, remember the theater sports,
wherever we would go and do improv commomy being back
in the day, right, Um, and there's a guy in
there named Jason Priestley, and there's a couple of other actors,
Bernie that guy, and we were all nobody's and we'd

(05:29):
auditioned for some crazy Hollywood thing. And two days after
I got back to got back to Vancouver, after I
was cut from the Olympic team. Um, I thought my
life was over and I lost my girlfriend. My life
was over. And I was like, and this guy called
me from Hollywood and said, hey, I'd like you to

(05:49):
fly you to l A and I want to see
if you and I, um, you know, can maybe a u. Um,
we'll see if you're if you're if what I think
you could be in this industry. And um, I saw
a tape you did in Vancouver and uh and I
so I called this guy and I said, who is
this guy who just called me? And should I be worried?
And what's this about? He goes producing? You should go.

(06:10):
You should go to Hollywood because it's before you could
google people. I mean, you were very tall and handsome
and you still are. Oh my god. Well I was.
I was a different person then and I had no
interest in acting, and I was just doing it for fun.
And I was just running around. But this guy flew
me to Hollywood and it was so long. I go

(06:36):
that it doesn't have a number. That's a long got
there and um he picked me up in a limits them.
It took me to one of his theaters. No way,
he had three. He owned three or four little equity
waiver theaters and he owned and all of his actors
in his group had to do two plays a year,
we all. And so he introduced me some actors. I

(06:59):
met Gregory hair A Sin and that's some other guys. Dad,
my dad very handsome. He's also very and it was
in it was at this theater. He was doing a
play called Child's Play at the West Coast Playhouse. And anyway,
so Frank just basically said, look, he goes, Um, I love.

(07:19):
After a couple of days, I like you. Um put
me up at the Beverly Joy. We had dinner there
the other night. Beverly. Oh yeah, the Garland. That's where
I stay when I cut the Beverly. I love the
Beverly Garland. She's such a glamorously Yes, and he said,
I'm gonna put you in acting classes, movement classes, definitely
voice classes is the hate Canadian accent story, but it's

(07:44):
gonna go story story. And he literally just believed in
me and Jason too, And so he paid for an
apartment for me and Jason. He gave us a car
to drive. No strings attached, no strings of attached. No, No.
Beckton was about building talent. It was about like, can

(08:05):
you igine what they wanted you trained? They wanted you
to theater. I did a repertory Shakespeare company. He wanted
you to be trained, and then he would let you audition,
but not a year or two of real training. Like
you couldn't even audition. You just don't focus on making money,
focus on getting good and and he kind of he

(08:28):
groomed a lot of actress and actresses that way, and
he built a really nice staple and he had a
good living. Unfortunately, four years later, on the set of
My Stepmother's to Space Area and the Combassenger movie and died. No,
I didn't get a sort of show him that I
became Dan Scott Paul. He'd be so proud of you.

(08:50):
I mean, you really are Shakespeare and bad guy with
all those layers of I'm good, I'm bad. Yeah, you
can do everything I mean, that's why your career expanded
so many very is genres and just I feel like
you could go into any time period. You can play
a good guy, you can play a bad guy. You
you're so talented, You've got and I think it's largely

(09:10):
because of you're such a curious person and the way
that your outlook is on the world. You're constantly asking
questions and learning about people. I've never been in a
taxi with you where you didn't want to talk to
the driver and ask them about their life and where
they're from. And the janitor who's cleaning up the you
know coke that somebody spilled in the corner, you want
to talk to that guy. Paul always does invite the

(09:31):
waiter to sit at the table and have a drink
when the shift ends, because you know we're going to
shut the place down, Like being in Paris with Paul
and he's just like, we'll save one for you here,
let's go ahead, and when you're done, it's given. I'm
going to need a job and I want to make
sure that. I mean, Paul, you were the reason we
became such good friends with Hank at Deluxe. He became

(09:54):
like our local you know, our local uncle in town
who gave us all the info on Wilmington's. And I
was thinking about you when I moved to Chicago. There's
a restaurant there um that before it was trendy, had
a thing where you could buy a six pack for
the kitchen on the menu. That's amazing. And I was like,
do these people know Paul Johansson? What's going on here?

(10:16):
I just it. Every time I see someone be so
generous with people that way, I always think of you. Well,
you painted very sweet picture of me. It's it's gonna
be hard to live up to that. It's accurate, but
you can't see yourself, but we see you very well.
It's true. It's all that experience, you know, has given
you such a breath and an ability to um tap

(10:36):
into the vast amount of human experience, which you really
brought to Dan. And one of the great things about
Dan is that, I meanably, arguably he was the most
um the character with the largest trajectory on the Show
of Change, and um, I mean, I think all the
layers that you brought to him. It could have just
been one note, but instead he became an iconic character

(10:58):
that ended up having this great story of redemption by
the end, and it took nine seasons to get there. Um,
but let's start at the beginning because we don't have
you know, what was your team drama experience, because you
worked on shows like ours in the nineties, Well, I
think that you know, the closest resemblance was Nano two
and No, which was in its day massive, I mean scandalous. Yes, yeah,

(11:24):
built the TV studio for Fox. It really did. I
mean it was it was the you know that really
started it all off of them. But you know, um,
I remember going places with Jason and when Jason hosted
Said Night Live and when Luke was hosting you know shows,
and they were and the amount of fans and show
you know pre you know, um uh social media. You know,

(11:47):
it was about being there and experience it and they
have their phones all up. They were like engaging and
it was really really kind of phenomenal to what you
guys imagine being in a club and seeing Paul, Jason
Briesley and Luke Perry walk in like I wouldn't even
if they were famous, like that man, good looking men
in one space, like a great time falling over. I mean,

(12:11):
you know, honestly, I wish I could if I could
do one thing with one Tory Hill, I wish I
could go back and have more awareness of myself as
like my because you know, we we had so little
off time. We worked more on that show. We were
there so much. I wish that I would have spent

(12:33):
more time kind of productive in my off time. You know,
I was going to have a life with you guys,
and I was fifteen years older than you guys. I
was trying to have a life, trying to find my
place in the same you know, where I'm you know,
like you guys. I you know, I often don't feel
um like I have a place, and so I try

(12:53):
to create one. And so the people who became my
friends were you guys. Even though we were so much
fren age. It was kind of remarkable to watch you
guys go through so many things I've seen Jason go
through with Luke or or Shannon or any of those
guys had gone through um and it was amazing to
see how different you guys had a bit than they
they were in Hollywood growing up and you were in Wilmington.

(13:17):
We probably dodged a bullet. I think so too. You mean,
you guys are assaulted the kind of people, and so
were they, and I think, but I think the mechanics
of the industry are hard, you know, and they take
a lot out of me. So maybe that distance was
in a weird way. What made it kind of a
special experience for me? You know, can you tell us

(13:45):
how you got the part? Like, wow, yeah, I think
Brian Robbins gave it to me. I played basketball with
Brian and James Lafferty in this entertainment league, the basketball League.
You guys knew each other before I play did a
few games. He hated me. He was like, I was
cocky and I just finished playing and so I was like, wait,

(14:06):
who James, Well, everybody kind of okay. I mean George
Clooney threw the ball at my head. I mean people
didn't know that's the name of your memoir, Paul, George
Clooney threw the ball at my head. Yeah. I actually
like George quite a bit. I just I just remember

(14:27):
that I was I was the cocky guy that was
actually a real basketball player. It was my dream to
be in the NBA. I had some shots at it,
had some pro shots to play, and this guy called
me from Hollywood and at the right time and pulled
me away from that. Um so I was really, really,
really good. You know, I had a very beast one

(14:48):
fifteen years so, I mean, my dad, now, it's a
completely different game you can play. It's getting to school
one time morning. Yeah you know which is or as
Joy will probably know, but no, but I mean, I
don't know. I mean I think that basketball was was
my road in and play with James and playing with
m Brian Robins. To get back to the question, I

(15:10):
think Brian saw that I was super competitive and inside
of me is that sort of like that that Michael
Jordan thing where nobody likes them, but they'll want them
on their team winner. And that's how I was as
an athlete. And it doesn't translate well to life, well
to sports because acting, you know, it's it's about being

(15:33):
open to receive and then being brave enough to give
that vulnerable part of yourself that you keep secret to
yourself from you're loaning your house and you're crying over
that nobody will understand, and that's going, Okay, here's what
I got. You know, are you gonna take it? If
they don't take it? You know, you're not gonna have
a good scene. You know, you're not gonna have a a
good experience. But I think it's on. Let's let's go

(15:55):
there and yeah, and that's the the for me. That's
where I get juiced when i'm acting. Bring it. You know,
you do direct the way a coach coaches team sports,
where it's like you need to show up for your teammates,
like I've heard you have that conversation before and like

(16:15):
yelling from the sidelines. God, I never thought about it
until just now, but yeah, you're basketball. Coached us through
all the seasons of wondering and get your hand in
the game. But was an'n amazing thing too, because for
you in this sort of parallel path to be a coach,
but also to have had the beginning you had that

(16:39):
you told us about, like don't worry about the work,
just get good. You're so good. You're such a good actor,
You're such a good storyteller. So to have like one
of the best actors and storytellers and scene partners you've
ever worked with also be a team sport guy, like
I no wonder every time you were directing us, we
were like, this is the best episode of the year

(17:00):
the best. It was always such a relief when we
knew you were directing. Well. The scene that stands out
for me, the one scene from One Tree Hill I
have on my reel is the scene that you directed
of when Brooke and Payton get into the physical altercation
in on the front Lawn. You directed that scene. That's
the time that Sophia skull got cracked. We accidentally headbutted,

(17:25):
but the scene turned up. That's the basketball coaching him.
He's like, walk it off good. You guys got was that? Guys?
That looked really real and we were both on the
floor by out face. But that scene to me is
my favorite scene of probably the whole series, because we

(17:45):
were doing real work and we were tapping into all
the insecurities we had, all of the things that were real.
You were You were encouraging us to use the real
things to tell a powerful story for our audience. And
you guys brought it. Because one is the most important
thing is in anything sports or acting or anything, you
were prepared. You didn't show up going what am I

(18:08):
doing today? To me, that drives me nuts. I go, wait,
what do you mean? What are we doing today? Like
you have this fantastic. Like blueprint, it's called a script today.
If you read it, it's really informative. You guys showed
up and you knew your lines, which is for me,

(18:29):
it's like that's just playing elbow grease and hard work
and there's no there's acting. I don't care who you
are because I let me look again. Anecdotally another story
Joyce heard a thousand times. I was really close to
what I think is one of the greatest improv actors
of all time, Robert Downey Jr. Yeah, a little bit.
We spent a lot of time study and preparing him

(18:50):
for Chaplin. Uh. He was very, very dear, and we
had a lot of a lot of time together, you know,
in in in the world of preparing for screen tests, auditions,
and he learned everybody's lines and his in the whole forwards,
he learned backwards, and then he never said them. He
knew that he developed the character so well that when

(19:12):
he got to the set, the character took over. So
not that I think we needed to go back for
our In television, we don't have that kind of luxury
to take fifty five takes or hundred takes, take three
or four, and we take the best one, but to
get the best three or four, you've got to show
up ready to go to work, man, no joke, you know,
And it's not. It's not for the faint of part,
because you put your heart out there every day. It's

(19:33):
just hard work and people that want to The first
thing I say is it's hard. Are you ready? Yeah,
So that's the thing I'm very curious about because that well,
first and just ask us. I'm gonna say, super proud
of us for being good students. I love that, thank you,
and uh, but my, my, my, real you know, sort

(19:53):
of emotional question under the joke is I'm fascinated about
that beginning because you're talking about entertainment league and this
basketball this this real um young competitive athlete in you
who as you speak about that, that version of you
and your life at a home, I'm like, well, you're

(20:14):
clearly deeply emotionally in touch of at this moment, and
you have been for a long time. But you know,
in the beginning, you're saying that it was sort of
something that could be viewed as a negative, a hyper
competitive streak in you that identified to our producer that
guy would be really good for Dan Scott, and then
you're talking about how you have to show up and

(20:34):
literally put your heart on the line, even when you're
playing a bad guy, even when you're you know, hand raised,
even when you're playing a confident girl. You really have
to be willing to kind of crack your chest open
and see what comes out. And so, how did you,
in the beginning of our show figure out how to

(20:55):
play this guy? Because Joyce said it, Dan could have
been so one note, you could whiplash, you could have
just been like a stereotypical bad guy, and you did
a thing that really got us, and it gets us
every week. Every week we watched the show and we're like, God,
damn it, he's good. How did you carry your whole

(21:18):
heart and your capacity for vulnerability and you're like hyper
competitive Olympic guy. How does that fit in one box?
How do you do that? It's a sensational question, and
I'm really grateful that you thought to ask me that
because it's it's it's so important to me because of
our fans. Who's mad they made this podcast like the

(21:41):
number one podcast because they're so loyal and they love
you know, you know, they love you guys, and they
love the show, and they deserve these kinds of questions,
So thank you for that question. That's the right way
to honor the work that we've done is to ask
those questions, you know what I mean. So I'm I'd
love to humbly how to explain it in the way
that I've always tried to explain this two two people

(22:04):
when when I get in that area, it's just, you know,
Dan was a narcissist. But the truth about narcissists that
they're broken, They're not there. They play out their Their
biggest fear is to be called out or to be humiliated.
To be humiliated or shamed is like execution for them.

(22:28):
So for Dan, he was so so proud and so
so put together an external level in this erstand clearly
aesthetic value that he puts out there for the world
to see, but he is broken on the side. Remember
listening to your podcast to sort of prepare for this conversation,

(22:49):
who are we talking about, Paul? What were we saying?
And and and and just and things fire to my
heads and we're talking about you're talking about Jerold McCraney.
That's those scenes with him. Although I was really really sick,
I'm prepared to go into that to show why I
was broken in that episode. But you got the opportunity
because Paul, you were perfect in that episode. You were

(23:12):
like a broken kid, and I know you were sweating
because you were sick, but you used it that moment
when Deb what was going on? Somebody Deb was saying
something to you and you looked at her like, dude,
stop it, that's looking. Yeah, you were instantly a teenager,
fourteen year old boy. I don't remember what the conversation was,

(23:33):
but I remember we all commented on that stage exactly
that is it is it is. It's usually from parents.
Narcissism comes from narcissistic parents. And then and what they
do is they do all the you know, the loading
and the self hatred, all this stuff. So in my mind,
the way that I wanted to play down the way
they wanted to find that value. And by the way,
and you can't have this conversation without giving credit to

(23:54):
the writing staff because they are wanted are getting, you know,
the great portunities for you to find these moments. So
I really always throw the throw that up to the
right stuff. Because they described they understood Dan in a
way that seemed there was an ease there, you know.
And maybe that's because Dan was an adult and like
having to remember what it's like to be a teenager

(24:16):
is hard sometimes, but clearly someone understood Dan Scott on
like a visceral level. I'm not touching that. You go
back to you keep going back to you. That's what

(24:41):
character's interesting. And I will say just to just to
finish that, you know that. The point that I feel
about that is that no, no, truly you know, um
powerful and interesting, um sort of uh. I wouldn't call
him a villain, was in the villain. Dan's biggest secret,
which I will revie, is that he deeply loved both

(25:04):
Lucas and Nathan deeply, like so much that he pretended
not to. My goal in every scene was to love
them so much. But I have to be strong and
don't show them. That's what the that's the conflict in
me and all those When did you decide that? Really
early in season one, when I when I wasn't sure

(25:25):
how to play some scenes and how do I find depth?
How do I find depth? How do I find a
deeper value to this guy? I don't just want to play?
When I went to to to the to the writers
and I said, guys, I don't know. I mean, I
feel like, you know, I should have I would rather
have been Keith. And no, you don't want to be Keith.
I'm like, yes, he's gonna die. But the truth is
is they said, just trust us, trust us. But I

(25:47):
wanted to be more than just a bad guy. And
so the way that I thought would be interesting was
was to kind of go to that other value and go,
what is a bad guy really seen as the truth
is they're really freedom fighters and the countries we call
terrorists and all these other ideas, it's the opposite. So
how do I play the opposite value and still be
the bad guys? Will play? I play deep devotion of

(26:08):
everything I did was for was for Nathan's future. I
fought for his future. He doesn't know as I know,
so I'll take care of it for him. And then
in that way I crossed over into those boundaries. Yeah,
I think that's relatable for a lot of parents who
you know, we some a lot of parents have them.

(26:30):
The light switch goes on, you know where to set
the boundary between yourself and your child, And then there
are parents that don't know where that boundary line is
and they overstepped consistently because of this broken belief that
they know better and they don't know how to just
allow their child to have an independence. And you know,
you really, you really laid that out quite well. It's
actually really interesting because I'm realizing that the reason for

(26:52):
me that when we all watch the show and we
have these deep conversations while we're watching episodes, not even
when we're doing the podcast about Dan Scott, the image
that came to mind when you were explaining that to
me was was a fist, and you made a fist
out of love, but you still hit your kid. And

(27:16):
that's what I think hurts us all when we watch
him in these early years is it's like, God, you
just can't Dan Scott can't stop emotionally punching his kid.
But the reason that for some reason, we as viewers
so badly want him to redeem himself, we see something
in him, is that you didn't play it as just

(27:37):
a dad who was emotionally abusive to his kid. You
actually turned something broken in him into like the most
heartbreaking kind of a generational trauma where you're like, oh no,
he's doing the exact wrong thing. But that's why we
see something else in him, because it's motivated by something tender.

(28:00):
And to be able to hold that kind of complexity
for a character for how many years? Wow? What did
it do to your life to play this bad guy? Well,
like I remember going into the Dixie Grill in Wilmington's

(28:21):
to get like sloppy eggs, and it was back when
you could like still smoke inside and drinking coffee, and
like they had like a little like you know, display
case at the front of the store and they were
selling Dan Scott mugs there because you were the iconic
you know, the guy that you love to hate. Um,

(28:44):
didn't you live right above them at that point too?
I loved that apartment. That was a good apartment, closer
to the wine I could be you know. Um, how
soon after the show launched did you start feeling, um,
feeling the feedback of plane Dan Scott. You know, this

(29:04):
was obviously again before a lot of the social media
was taking in, but there were some of those forums
in one that you could read about it, and I
tried not to. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, So when did
people start picking on you? I'm glad social media didn't. Well,
you guys. Know. I mean I I had that one
experience in New York. I had the girl in first
in on an airplane. UM move asked the stewards to

(29:26):
move her because she was sitting across from me, and
she and she was scared, and and I was like,
you know, no, no, I'm just like I'm just a
Canadian guy. It often scares me sometimes that people do
not have a separation UM Channel. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

(29:53):
we really get that with our show in a way
that I haven't seen for a lot of other peoples.
We blurred the line between in fact and fiction numerous times,
you know, like Haley went out on tour, Joy went
out on tour, we did the Sun Kissed concerts, We
did the Sun Kissed concerts. You know, we blurred that
line so much that I understand why it's confusing for people.

(30:15):
We've been talking this morning about how, you know, we
have been critical of our own characters and also critical
of Lucas's character. Yeah, because what was normal for boy
behavior in two thousand three, you know, eighteen years later
is not acceptable behavior. You don't flirt with two girls
at the same time. You don't gaslight girls like and

(30:37):
people are really upset because they're like, how could you
betray Lucas? And I think Dan exemplifies this in a
really tangible way, because you can have someone who is
doing something inappropriate and it doesn't make them a terrible person,
it doesn't make them beyond redemption. Peyton and Lucas are

(30:58):
still end game. But if they started off two perfect
people falling in love and perfectly being together for six years,
that would be a boring show. And life is messy
and that's part of just learning how to live your
life and grow up. Are we not allowed to be
messy people? Exactly? Are we supposed to be perfect all
the time? I'm not on board with that, And I

(31:18):
think this idea of perfectionism is really toxic. And I
think especially for us as women who have been very
open about things we've been through, when we see bad
behavior against women modeled, it's incredibly important to talk about it.
And duh, the whole point is that we're doing this
episode by episode. So if by the way, look at

(31:40):
how critical I've been a Brook, like, good God, the worst,
I want to be able to say that is not
acceptable behavior, and then look where she gets to go.
We know what's coming for Lucas he is to your
point two timing not just two girls best friends. It's
not okay at the stage we're at in the podcast

(32:02):
and the series rewatch, But I think what's cool is that,
and I think why our show has resonated with people
is that all of the people, even for their failings,
even for when they come up short, that character, my character,
our characters, they learn, they grow, they become better versions
of themselves. And my hope is that if we hold

(32:24):
them accountable, ourselves accountable, we can also encourage people to say, hey,
you're so much more than the worst thing you ever did.
Maybe you were in a bad stage of your life,
but look where you could go. You can get your
happy drive off into the sunset with your hot wife
and your kids like go after that came well. In
this episode, Dan is the hero because it's the episode

(32:48):
where there's the car crash where Keith has been drinking.
Chad's character is in a lot of trouble with his health,
and Dan is the one that steps up and says,
I'm your dad and I'm going to sign off on
this surgery. And it is the first time we see
Karen look at Dan's character, perhaps the way she looked

(33:08):
at him in high school. In high school, I just
have to say, I know we're talking about this episode,
but Paul, in that scene in the last episode where
you look at the doctors and you say, do it,
I'm his father, the three of us went literally but
the three of us all went on zoom, all at
the same time. We gasped. It was so powerful after

(33:32):
his behavior and and to that place into their conversation
about motivation behind the character love, you know, which helped
bring about the redemption in the end of the series.
So to hear you say that now after we just
watched that scene, we were so emotionally touched by it.

(33:53):
But now I feel like I understand it's in a
way that I I didn't before. That's beautiful. Something about
what you said earlier yourself about about this idea of
like this sort of like the jumping back and forth
with with with um. You know, you talked about Lucas
is dating two girls, and at the end of the
episode there's forgiveness everybody, you know, and I think the

(34:15):
one thing and this is sort of really relevant in
my life now, but this idea of forgiveness, forgiveness is
all undervalued nowadays, and it's so undervalued in artistry. It's
sounder value and taking chances in your life. Yes, mistakes,
we're going to say dumb jokes, we're going to un

(34:37):
you know, um, intentionally hurt people's feelings or do bad things.
But if we truly are looking to to sort of
move forward and evolved towards a sort of more perfect
being UM and towards a more perfect being, I think
this forgiveness factor is is completely way to get that.
Absolutely you can't. You can't I have a functional society

(35:01):
without forgiveness, and you can't have a functioning society without communication.
Because look, we all, the four of us, we know
each other well enough. I know when any of you
is keeping a secret, having a rough day, or you
need a hug. But you look real professional up on
stage and a sun kiss event. So for face time

(35:21):
me the other day and she's like, you seemed real
fine on that zoom Hillary, what's going on? And I
was liked, And I think I think we can forget that.
Not everyone out in the world speaks the same language
from the same emotional information that we do. And we've

(35:42):
been talking a lot. The three of us about how
we wish we'd had the tools when we were twenty
one to ask each other, Hey, I feel like you
feel this way about me? Is that true? Or hey
I heard a thing? Was that real? You know? If
we could have just asked? And and I want to
be very clear, there's there's a line between clearly abhorrent

(36:06):
and inappropriate and and you know, violent and biased behavior
and being messy, but also like where people come from culturally,
senses of humor, senses of humor that come from the
world of athletics versus from theater schools, they're very different,
and and being able to communicate and say that felt weird,

(36:29):
What do you mean? Just let everybody grow together, because
someone then might say, oh, h well, my friends and
I used to make this joke all the time. And
then the person in the room who's new could go, ah, yeah,
I had someone make fun of me for that once,
and and you go, oh, God, like, tell me more,
and then you bond. At the point right there is
when someone's intent is to grow and learn, They're going

(36:52):
to fumble along the way to grow and learn. So
would they go, hey, I feel like I might have
like of stuff right there gosh, I hope you understand
I didn't mean that, and and and then go thank
you for saying that you go with me? And that's
how I'm with you? Are you are? Paul? Can I

(37:17):
tell a story. This is a story about you, and
it is a thing that I have like carried deep
in my heart. I don't even know if we've talked
about that. There was a day that you and I
and I genuinely, I'm going to be really honest, I
don't remember if we were in New York for press
or if we were just on the street in Wilmington's,
but we would go out a lot, and it was daytime.

(37:40):
I remember because because I was shocked by the behavior
in the light of day, and you and I were
walking down the street and your airplane story made me
think of this. A lady past us and went you.
She gasped and we both looked, and it was like
something took over her body. And I'll never forget. She
had one of those like you know, Kate's bade bags

(38:02):
with the straps, and she went h and as she
was scoffing at you, she pulled her bag off her shoulder,
and it was a bag with a zip top so
she could swing it. And she started swinging her bag
and hitting you over and over and she literally went,
you are such a bad dad. No, she was hitting

(38:25):
him in the arm with this bag, and Paul, I'll
never forget because this was the clarity of many things
for me with you, your generosity of spirit, your understanding
of expectation, and your deep awareness from having been an
athlete of what your size conveys to people. You you,

(38:46):
you looked so shocked. I saw the hurt on your face.
And then as she kept smacking you, I watched you
have a thought, take a deep breath, stand up a
little taller, and you literally you gave this woman who
watched our show what she wanted because she thought of
you as Dan Scott. And you made a choice and

(39:08):
you leaned in and you said, yeah, I am a
bad dad, and you winked at her, and she all
of a sudden, the spell was broken, and she started laughing.
And then she patted you on the forearm and said, oh,
you're just so good. And then she watched to watch
and you, guys, it was the wildest thing. Because I

(39:30):
watched a person assault our friend. I think it was
okay because he was a big, physically big man. And
and then you. I saw how much it hurt you
and how quickly you decided to be kind to her
instead of to be honest about how you felt. And

(39:51):
you and you made it into this moment. And I
bet that woman I told that story for eighteen years.
Oh he's so sexy. Oh you what he said to me?
He said, Oh, I am a bad dad baby like
I'm you know, And I've never forgotten it. And it
it made me always see you and the way that

(40:14):
you could see what people needed and give it to them,
whether it was a hug or like you put on
the Dan Scott hat. You always have been willing to
give people the thing that you can see they're aiming for.
And and it it is to me a signal of
such intuition and empathy. And I think it's very rare.

(40:35):
And I don't think it's a thing people know about
the hot dad from TV who's real good at basketball.
Daddy I talk about you is a bad husband. Because
we've had Barbara on the show and in the earlier episodes,
your chemistry together is really fun to watch and it's

(40:56):
going to go bad. But then your chemistry with Moira
was on display in this episode, and so had you
worked with either of them before? Did you know the
women I auditioned, um, the women potential women to be
Dan's wife to be, and um there was no competition

(41:17):
for her when she walked into the room and her
she was it. I mean you could just tell. I
mean as she walked in the room and we just
all went do we need to read perfect? She was
and she Have you ever met somebody that was so
easy to be around on the set, like just a

(41:40):
joy to be Barbara? Yeah, we've met that person. It's Barbara. Yeah,
I mean she was literally one of the easiest people
to show up with the noman like a real pro. Yeah.
Always knew her lines, always, always kind of could figure
out what the blocking was, never the right. She's a

(42:01):
dame a long time ago on a movie and saladly
would come every day. She would never go to a trailer.
She would sit on the set in her chair, she
did this needle point. She was just there and with
her whom knew, and she was amazing and dev reminded

(42:22):
me a lot of that kind of of a you
know that sort of like really took the job seriously,
but didn't take themselves too seriously. Ferish person. Um with
with Moira. I saw Moira in the late eighties on
a dance floor in a nightclub in Hollywood everything. Where
were you? What was she wearing? I just finished watching

(42:44):
um uh the what's the hockey movie? The We used
to say it behind her back all the time. We'd
be like, can we tell her? Can we tell her?
Can we say topic to her? Don't say it'll don't Well.
I had additioned for that for that be swinging role.
A couple of times I didn't get it. And I
saw her on the dance for and my jaw dropped.

(43:05):
I was like, that person's a movie stars. She's got it,
you know, she has that thing. And then she was
in down his movie chaplain, Oh yeah, that's right, And
um I really wanted to go to the set and
see that, but they were shooting in London. Um and
um she so. I always wanted to work with her,
and she just brings a real savvy intellectualism about her,

(43:29):
like she always you see her thinking on camera, which
I love. Yes, editing room and you have an actress
who is thinking, and you're going they're thinking. I gotta
cut to this person and so all the time because
it's so interesting. So it's a way to steal scheme.
She also very rarely changed lines. Moira, I'm noticing that

(43:49):
as we watch back, which there's a lot of things
where I'm like, man, if I had to say that dialogue,
I definitely would have put up a little stink like
I'm not saying that, I'm gonna say it this way,
blah blah blah, which you know in some on some characters,
in some in some just too much champagne guys jobs
with some characters, that works, it works. They want you

(44:11):
to bring your own flavor, flavor to the But when
I watched her, she has made all of that dialogue
work without changing it, and it's pretty great. It's inspiring,
it is she She just has such a grace. Yeah, yeah,
time and Paul, I know we said it, but it
really bears repeating that. At the end of this episode,

(44:34):
when Karen walks into the dealer Shoe to think Dan,
we all were like, oh God, look at them, Look
at them looking at each other, Look at them looking
at each other. It was some sexual tension there, for sure.
It was firelight, hot heat and I was like, I
need to know so much more about Dan and Karen. Yeah,

(44:55):
I have a question for you. When you were in
high school? Who was your type? Hal? Was it Brooke
Hailey or Peyton? What was your what was your flavor? Um?
So I was a late bloomer. I was. I didn't
even until after high school. Good for you, Good for you,

(45:16):
same buddy, same. Yeah, I was. I know this is
gonna sound a little weird, but I wasn't sure what
my life was going to be in a part of
me thought I might want to become a priest. So
wait what I didn't know what You don't know that,
of course I knew, think, Oh my god, No, I

(45:36):
didn't know. Uh, And I was. I was quite serious
about my where my heart was, about what I wanted.
But then I found out that I would not be
able to have a family. Non starter for me. I
want to be a dad. Yeah you know, I mean obviously,
my my, my, my faith has changed a lot over
my lifetime and my years, my experiences and and but

(45:59):
but you know the truth is I just wasn't sure
I wanted to give all of that to a human
being because I was giving it to something greater. I
thought what I was attracted to was I was attracted to, Um,
I'm an odd dude. I'm really weird. Nobody knows better
than Joyce, my counselor the very last twenty years on

(46:23):
on my my dating in scabates. But I picked very strange.
And the truth is, and here's a real big reveal,
in the last couple of years, I've realized that, you know,
through my conditioning as a very very um you know,
which brings us back to the Danner character a little bit,
is that you know, I'm the child of a very
very violent man. My father was very violent, and it
was at any extre and he was a bad drinker,

(46:47):
and he was he was a mean drunk, and he
was very very violent. And he wasn't just volent to me,
he was violent to my sister, my mom. All he
found his God and quit drinking, and the last years
of his if he never had to drop of alcohol.
But when I was young, growing up until I was
like fourteen years old, it was coming home and hiding
in the closet, not knowing when he pulled who he's

(47:10):
going to beat up that night. So it was so
I have inside of me this trauma bond with so
my my mom, my dad. I wasn't protected by my
mom from a raging drunk and I wasn't predicted by
my dad by you know, uh, you know, a mom
who was sort of a sleep at wheel leting it happen.
You should have taken us away, you know, protected us.

(47:32):
So my relationships with with with the other sex has
been very about not having trust. I don't trust you're
going to take care of me because she didn't. My life,
have I discovered why I've I've hadn't been a good
partner because I can't blame the other people. I have
to blame myself when I'm not a good partner because
either I chose poorly orright where I wasn't prepared to

(47:53):
be holy healed from that. So my choices have not
been that good. When I was a young boy, I
was always attracted to people that I thought were um
odd and quirky and mousey and nebbish and school bookish
and safe. Safe. Yeah. I wasn't attracted to people that
would challenge me because I know I would react because

(48:16):
challenging and fighting not he Oh yeah, wow, So now
you guys out there all know why We can sit
with Paul Johansson for hours on everything with wine and
great food or just on a park bench, and you
just never get tired of talking with him the best.

(48:36):
We love you so much. You Yeah, You're so open,
and it gives us permission to be open, and you know,
it has set a really good example for us. And
what was oftentimes a toxic environment, you were a person
that we could look to and be like, well, Paul's
still standing, and I think something really incredible, And I

(49:00):
imagine for the folks who are you know listening along
with us having this conversation. The first of all, your
generosity and being willing to share your story, both your
personal story and also how you chose to inform the
on screen character, who I would imagine was very informed
by the way you grew up. M you you played

(49:25):
a character who I bet on you know, some silly
you know dot com list would be listed as like
a toxic villain from TV. And yet you are sitting
here being the actual living proof of how a person
can undo a generational inheritance of toxic masculinity, can examine

(49:48):
h really dangerous environment that they were raised in and say, oh,
I have been drawn to hectic, frenetic energy. I'm not
going to do that. I want to be a dad.
I want to change my life. I want to heal
the child in me so that I can be a
good a good parent to the child. I'm going to

(50:09):
have you. You are such a god damnit, Paul. You
are such a good dad. And Paul you you were
that for us, like you were our safe space. And
I know that people used your athletic body and strong job,

(50:30):
which is so god damn it, that strong job, but
they used it as an excuse to sometimes hate you.
With purses and project all of that. Dan Scott bullsheit
onto you. But you were literally at times a human
shield for us. You stepped in and you've got in
the way and you protected us and emotionally you I mean,

(50:53):
you were always the north star. And to know the
friend that you are to us and the father that
you are to your son and the may and that
you were as a leader, not only as an actor
but a director on our set, you made everybody laugh.
You charmed the goddamn grins off everybody's faces. My parents
thought I was going to run away with They were like,

(51:14):
what's happening? But you. You did it, carrying this legacy
and you've done the work. Like gentlemen, take notes, Get
it together, ladies, line up. We love you probably. Thank
you so much for coming and being a part of this.
Thank you for letting me be a part of this.

(51:36):
You guys, whatever do you want to come back? Come
back all the time? Like which episode? Oh my god,
like three men and a baby and it's just the
three of us in pol forever? Are you ready? You
guys have so much going on right now. It's every
one of you was so busy. I mean, it's unbelievable.
What's happening with you guys. You're like this power We

(52:00):
joking that we're like Captain Planet. We got back together
and were together. What episode do you want to come
back for? Shoot your shot? Which what's your favorite? You
have to look, I mean I watched this episode and
I was so impressed with you know. What I thought
was they laid the groundwork for really good like a
really good yarn. Like there's this episode. There was a

(52:22):
scene in there where James comes and talks to a
comatose Chad. Yes, so good, good on you man, like
good beautiful you know, James, you know is a very strong,
you know, human being, and he and he brings stoicism
to it and and you know, and depth. And I
love the Karen and deb scene where they talk, you know,

(52:43):
and and really share for a moment. That's and it
sort of builds this whole, you know. I love that
they spent a lot of some more time in the
early seasons with with some of the older actors. You know,
I wish they kept doing that more expensive Paul that
I don't know what had happened, but I didn't. I don't,
I don't. I mean, I'm glad everything it has to
be evolved. It is. And even Barry was lovely when

(53:06):
he wasn't he so good? We'll think about think about
what episode you would want to come back for let
us know. But before we let you know, we have
to spin a wheel. And this wheel is most likely too.
These are aust of perlatives, so that we've got a
whole collection of possible questions. We decided to just own
the high school yearbook, you know what I mean. Most

(53:27):
likely to be late to their own wedding, Oh geez,
which could be character or an actor? Yes, you know,
if anyone from the show a character or an actor
would be late to their own wedding. I mean I
was gonna say, Dan Scott quick story. I was directing
the episode in the woodhouse. Remember where we're all out

(53:50):
in the cabin, Yes, with Rachel's parents Cates. I loved
that place. We're there, we're getting ready to shoot the scene,
and everybody in it it was like it was like nightmare. Yeah,
it was brutal, and we're about ready to shoot and
the last two people waiting for for our Joy and Sophia.

(54:11):
We're waiting and we're waiting, and we go and finally
I can't remember what was the first eight was a
k or was it Chad? I think it was Chad
Graves to our first, that should we take bets Son,
who's going to be here first. He's out to secretly
follow you as you left your and we had announcements
on this set. We were all sitting, Oh my god,

(54:32):
I'm so mortified, and we're going to go. Okay, Sophia's
out of our trailer. She's wanting she's got a phone call,
and everyone goes. I was like, why was I late?
Was I walking in any what was I doing? And
then to the phone call so how do people were
waiting for Joy to be late? For you to be
late to weear I'm in a competition. So then she's

(54:53):
gonna she turned towards the craft cable. Then it starts
to walk again, another call and goes oh, and then
Joy Joy forgot some of the craft was she's going
back for by the way, you know what, I bet,
I bet you and I are watching going We'll clearly
nobody's on set because she's over there. Well, she's over there,

(55:15):
and we're like, oh, I'm just gonna take my sweet
ass time. That's horrifying. Oh god, I'm so sorry. Who won? Yeah?
Who did? Do you remember who got to step first?
Joy was last crewed? Food wins over everything. I would
forget to pick my kid up from school. When you
guys got to the set and clapp and you were like,

(55:37):
what's that? I remember? I remember the whole crew like
bursting out into applause and like the confused look on
your face is like, what's going on? Oh my god?
That's the reason I was because I was kissing a
crew member, like I was always on set. I like
that about you. I do remember, though, there was always
that thing because there were so many of us all

(55:57):
the time where somebody would be because they always tell
you they're ready for you before they are, so they'd
be ready for you. And then you go to set
and sit around for twenty minutes. I'm like, I could
have had a snack. So then we started doing at
the table. Honestly, you're not wrong, but we started doing
this thing, which, in hindsight I realized it was probably
pretty terrible where you'd look around and see which of
your co workers was also dawdling and be like, well,

(56:19):
clearly they're not actually ready for us, because look at
us all out here staying and playing with our dogs,
like oh God, the phone calls and peanut butter. God,
bless God, bless Paul. You are a prince. I am
glad that you're listening. Audience knows the real you underneath

(56:41):
the dance god at all. If you see Paul in
real life, hug him, tell him wonderful he is. And
if you hit Paul in real life, I'll hit you back. Ready,
but I'm ready now to love you. I'll see you
for dinner on Friday night. I Oh, ladies and gentlemen,

(57:04):
you got to experience a real treat that was just
a small glimpse into many, many a night that we
shared with every time. So I guess next week we'll
talk a little bit more about this past episode that
we didn't really die to. It's worth it to. Lucas

(57:24):
was on a colma the whole time, talking about, Oh wait,
you know what I could do? I take notes while
we watch Let's do rapid fire. We're gonna do rapid fire, guys.
So this is how we do this podcast. We take
notes of what we saw words. So here's my notes, guys. Okay,
did Uncle Keith ever go to rehab? Oh my god,

(57:45):
there were answering machines. Yeah, Hailey was the queen of boundaries.
Thank you so much. Brook showing up in tears and
introducing herself to care and open enjoy burst out laughing,
and we realized it was a hilarious moment in the
tragedy of it all. Brooke is such a good girl,
it really is. Um the pause were you drinking before
you drove? Lucas, I was dead with the picnic basket

(58:08):
in the hospital. Hilarious, That was beautiful. Um. And realizing
that Keith, in that blink of an eye, knew his
whole future ended. Peyton sane, I'll wait forever if I
have to. Just six seasons, girl, just six years. Endgame
is coming. It was always in the script. Also, Lucas
talked to his mom about Peyton, but not brookely. Then

(58:29):
Karen's Karen says best friends can forgive each other anything.
I can't hear that. How sweet it was that the
boys were waiting for news of Lucas at the river court.
It was like a little gathering. And what about the
another Beamy classic, Haley hat lord Um, the sweet moment
about love on the rooftop. It makes me think about

(58:49):
years later the idea of context gives a speech at
Nathan and Haley's wedding about like love is not love,
that something about changing in context. I don't know that.
Shakespeare made me think about that, and like, oh, there
was always such a love there, the two of you
sharing the moment basically saying like we know what it
is to love Lucas but in different contexts go off.

(59:11):
But I say one last thing, what does deb need forgiveness? For?
What is it right? And the Ryl Crow song montage
at the end, good God Row Crows, perfect, guys, We
love you. Thank you. Every time Paul comes, we probably
won't talk about the episode, and we're guessing that these

(59:32):
will be our most popular episodes of the show, so
in advance, you're welcome. Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget
to leave us a review. You can also follow us
on Instagram at Drama Queens o th H or email
us at Drama Queens at I heart radio dot com.

(59:52):
See you next time we are all about that high
school drama. Girl Drama Girl, all about them high school queens.
We'll take you for a ride in our comic Girl
Cheering for the Right Teams, Drama Queens, dreewase my gol
girl fashion but your tough girls. You could sit with
us Girl Drama Queeze Drama Queeze Drama, Queen's Drama, Drama,

(01:00:13):
Queen's Drama Queens