Heartstrings • EP419

It’s a late night recording of the pod and the wine is flowing. While Sophia, Hilarie and Joy struggle with the drama between Dan and Lucas in this episode, they find comfort (and more!) in Nathan. 

 

Plus, find out what happened in this episode that Sophia deems so valuable that she’s singing its praises 16 years later. 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
First of all, you don't know me. We all about
that high school drama, Girl Drama, Girl, all about them
high school Queens Forever. We'll take you for a ride
in our comic Girl Cheering for the drama Queens Girl Fashion.
But you're tough, girl. You could sit with us Girl Drama,
Queens Drama, Queen's Drama, Queen's Drama, Drama, Queen's Drama, Queens Okay,

(00:24):
Season four, Episode nineteen, Ashes of Dreams, You Let Die.
We're back to the depressing titles. Air dates May thirtieth,
two thousand and seven. Nathan and Haley grow closer in
spite of the recent scandal due to Haley's totally unreasonable reasonableness,
and Brooke wonders if a spark might be rekindled with Chase.

(00:45):
Peyton receives a tempting offer that would ultimately take her
away from Tree Hill. Mouth reconnects with Gigi, while Lucas
and makes a great stride toward something emotional for him
at school regarding Jimmy, and while Lucas tells Karen that
Dan is a murderer. It sets off an explosive series

(01:06):
of events. Director David Jackson, Wow explosive is right, where
do we even start that Dan and Karen kissing at
the beginning, just it was like the episode came on,
like we fade out of black and they're making out
and I felt like I got punched in the teeth.

(01:26):
But also they're making out in Lucas's room, Like, yeah,
I am in a healthy marriage. I'm not hooking up
with my husband in my child's room because that's a
weird thing to do. It's weird, yeah, especially if you've
had this history that is so sortid and all of
a sudden it's like, well, Keith's gone so and not

(01:48):
even gone for a major amount of time. All of
it that was rough. I mean, Moira always shows up
to work man like, she is so good and she's
so convincing. I feel for Karen in this scenario. I
hate Dan Scott right now. I mean remember your reaction

(02:11):
when he hit Lucas. Oh yes, you guys were like
h It was so shocking, and I guess it shouldn't
be given what we know about Dan and how violent
he can be and how violent we've seen him be
with deb but the fact that he's trying to pull
one over on Karen and then Lucas hits him and

(02:31):
he elbows him in the face. It was so brutal,
pure reflex too. Oh, like, my son hits me, I'll
hit him back. Oh, but how much more effective would
it have been in the scene if he hadn't hit
Lucas and Karen watched him restrain himself right, Like, in

(02:52):
my mind, I don't care if my son hits you
with a fucking baseball bat. You lay a finger on that, boy,
you are dead to me. And so like the idea
that Karen watched that and was like boys, star right,
you guys are being unruly. She didn't say, don't touch
my son. I was taken aback by her reaction. And

(03:16):
I think what I liked about it as as a
viewer is that I didn't expect any of what happened
in that scene. Yeah, and it's nice to have no
idea what's going on or what's going to happen. But man, again,
just knowing everything we know about Dan, it makes me
feel so well. We got the good old fashioned dance
got double down. You know, when when shit hits the

(03:39):
fan and he has a choice to make to be
a better human, he always chooses to go further in
the other direction. Yes, And how uncomfortable did it make you?
Because the three of us have talked so much about this,
this roller coaster of narcissism and abuse that he drags
people on, and he's been doing all this work to

(04:01):
be like the best version of himself, or so he
wants to tell everyone. And then when he knows that
his son knows what he did, he waltzes into that
police officer's office with that swagger. Oh you know, you
can't blame the boy I'm dating his mom. Oh, it
made me word vomit everywhere. Paul is such a good actor.

(04:26):
It puts the viewer in Lucas's shoes. Because to your point,
we didn't know anything. We could not have predicted anything
that happened in that scene, because if you had asked
me to put money on it, I would have been like, No,
Karen's gonna totally go batshit if he hits him, you know,
like when Lucas comes to her with this stuff, obviously
she's gonna side with him. Yea. And the betrayal that

(04:47):
we see on Chad's face in those performances is exactly
how I felt. I was just like, what, like I'm mad.
It's a great point I did. He's a a good crier, U, Chad.
He did such a good job in that because and
you said it too. He looks like a five year
old right now, just devastated that his mom didn't take

(05:10):
his side. That finally he told the truth, like he
got to the bottom of it. He found out and
he was willing to say the hard, impossible thing and
then got shut down. You know what, I liked that
they did for him. And we've you know, we've talked
a bunch folks at home. I feel like now I
have drinking games for our buzzwords and know the misdirect
is a buzzword, right, Oh do we why we have those?

(05:32):
I think I think we've got I think we do.
I mean, we're doing it all play. But the the
this is a really well done misdirect on the part
of the writers and on the part of David Jackson,
who directed this episode. Because when you watch Chad in
that scene, Lucas and Karen are sitting there and he's

(05:54):
to your point, Joy, he's confessing it, right, He's finally
saying the hard thing. But they gave him this dialogue
that was really like out of focus, and he starts
talking about a dream he had and then the girl
from the dream is real and he finally found her,
but now she's gone. He does sound like he's losing
his mind. Yeah. Yeah, And you get how his mother

(06:16):
could think, oh my god, my son is exhibiting signs
of PTSD. He needs to go to therapy. And you
see these two people miss each other in this moment,
and it's heartbreaking. And Chad did such a good job
of leaning into that, trying to find the words and
it looking like confusion. And I loved the way they

(06:39):
both sold it because I believed them both. Yeah, and
he feels like he has nowhere else to go. Where's
he gonna go? I mean white Whitey's the guy to
go to? Ye if I were likely, Dan Scott pulled
some Whitey's my guy, Yeah for sure. Yeah, I would
go to Whitey before I go to the police. Yeah. Okay.

(07:01):
Can I just say I do a whole TV show
about that very thing, about how people in positions of
power in small towns can manipulate the judicial system, and
so watching this play out on an episode that aired
in what year twenty seven? Yeah, yeah, it's it happens
all the time, and it's usually people who have their

(07:26):
economics or their race, or their sexuality that are being
judged by the community at large. And so to see
Lucas Scott all American basketball player put in that position
is hopefully more people can see themselves in that and
be like, oh my god, how terrifying to go to
the people that you think are going to help you

(07:48):
and instead they align themselves with power. Yeah. Just oh yeah, dismissed,
Just dismissed. They already had their answers. They don't need
to reopen that can of worms. So interesting, Dan walking
into that office is such an affront to what Lucas

(08:09):
is trying to do. And then when the cops says,
I was with your father outside the school. I had
to tell him his brother was dead, and Dan has
his whole sob story moment. You're just like, this is
such a pinnacle of evils, but it's so human, Like
we're looking at this on a level of murder. But yeah,

(08:32):
but we do it on a day to day basis.
We have these choices all the time when it's not
the stakes aren't that high. You know. It's just so
interesting to watch the different levels of human like a
human nature instinct that starts small. It doesn't start at murder.
Dan Scott didn't start his life acting that way with

(08:52):
horrible things. He started with the small, everyday little decisions
where it was like, do I save my ass or
do I be honest and do the uncomfortable thing that's
going to make me look bad and people will think
badly of me and I just can't risk it. There's
too much at stake. I'm just going to do the
one thing this one time that'll save my ass. And
then you do it again and again and again, and
eventually you're there. And by the way, before you even

(09:14):
get to the point where am I going to do
the thing that makes people look at me like I'm bad?
Am I going to admit where I'm bad? Am I
going to admit where I'm flawed? Am I going to
consistently align myself to power. It's like our whole country
is having a conversation about white supremacy and how it
makes everybody sick, including people it supposedly benefits. And it's

(09:35):
the same, Oh I'm just going to turn my eyes.
Oh I'm just going to drive away. Well, it doesn't
really affect my family. But the truth is it affects everybody,
and it's really interesting. While that's not the specific conversation
we're having, we are talking to your point, Hillary about
what you do on your show small town super rich
white guy comes from the sports world. Ever gonna blame

(09:59):
this guy and it's really interesting and he says, this
pains me, This pains me. I'm struggling here you how
could you do this to me? Yeah? And so, regardless
of what dynamic we're analyzing it in the choice to
always lean, to aligning yourself with power, to aligning yourself

(10:22):
to the person who you think can keep you safe,
I think that's such a just a universal truism of
the human experience. You said it, Joy, he's human. We're
all human. Yeah. And to learn to undo that is,
you know, to swim upstream and oof. It's weird from
this vantage point in all of our lives, when we're

(10:43):
advocating in the world and doing all the things the
three of us were doing to watch it. I wonder
if that's part of the reason it makes our skin
crawl someone it's too close to Yeah. I love a
cautionary tale because we're all just to step away, you know,
or two or three steps away. We're all vulnerable to
it at any given moment. That's why you have to

(11:03):
be vigilant with yourself. But so yeah, as much as
I hate Dan Scott, I'm also like, this is so
fascinating to watch this kind of I've said it before,
it's fascinating to watch this character unfold. But now we've
got Lucas in this boat where he's got to make
a decision about what to do. What I have a question.
Is this the same police officer that just like congratulated

(11:27):
Lucas for solving like the stalker Derek shit. Like, remember
there was a Remember there was a cop that was like,
way to go, kid, you were right. That guy is
a creeper from the internet. I wonder I didn't have
a moment of familiarity watching him. But it's also been
what three or four weeks since we've done an episode

(11:48):
because people have been shooting movies. We got tired of
the hospitals and we're like, we're going to hang out
at the precinct. Good, we have more hospitals coming up,
So I'm pretty sure. Yeah, you're right. They were like
get us out of there for a little while Relly, Okay,
we're really in the darkness. Let's pull up a couple
of things that are beautiful. Yeah, can hot we can

(12:09):
hot seat him. I loved everything about mouth. I loved
what he did with Jimmy. I loved everything joy about
your storyline is Haley and trying to sort of mitigate
your marriage and also your individual identity in the Valdetorian speech.
I loved James's performance. I loved Barry coming in to
yell at him and rattle him and tell him to
do the work. Where do we want to go? Yeah,
Oh my gosh, let's live in Nathan haley Land because

(12:31):
it's the nicest. Okay, it's the happiest, happiest place. Stink
from zero to sixty. I loved it. I loved Nathan's hair.
I love oh yeah, pause, pause for a pause. This
is like I mean, I think I just had it before.

(12:51):
How much I love the Little Elvis movie. That Austin
Butler movie. My kid watched it twenty seven times. James
is giving very strong, like Elvis energy here, very old
movie star with bad hair. Oh yeah. So wild to
have had him on the show and to have him say,
oh yeah, I started growing my hair out for the
season five storyline. I was like, what we all just

(13:13):
thought you were like growing up and getting handsome. What
are you talking about? Whatever? He planned that out. It
was great. It's interesting. It's definitely a very real thing
to think about the person that you, whether it's your
child or your parent, or your spouse or your sibling,
how their actions affect the people closest to them. Yeah,

(13:38):
I mean, that's a really that's tough, and I kind
of could see it from both perspectives. I mean, really,
I think Hayley still should have been allowed to give
her speech, of course, of course, but I could see
why as an institution, you have all these other people
to pander two and the people who were donating money,

(13:58):
and it's just it's that's like a tough situation for
the principle to be in. But I'm glad that Nathan
did what he did and that it was a good
chat with Principal Turner. I thought he was very convincing.
He got a lot to play this episode. You know,
like we've had Principal Turner for years, but he really
had a lot of work this episode to play the

(14:19):
back and forth and the look on his face when
Nathan was like, do you have a wife and would
you want her punished for something that you did? And
that's what it boils down to. It's like, yeah, God,
actually that is the last person I would want punished,
literally punish anybody else but her. She's gold. Yeah. What

(14:43):
a heavy thing for a teenage girl to have to
deal with. But I think it's her. I love that
she's dealing with it so nicely while she's pregnant. I
was like, this, she's being so reasonable. This is so bizarre.
But actually, I guess when you're you've got so many
other crazy things happening in your life at some point
you just kind of throw your hands up and you're like,
you know whatever, I'm just going to take everything as
it comes. Well in Haley's on the precipice of this

(15:07):
enormous life shift, and you have that bit of dialogue
about it saying it's it's just a speech, It's just
a moment high schools about to be over. Yeah, I'm
paraphrasing a little bit, you know, And I think what's
interesting about it and what I like and in the
ways that we talk about Look, if we talk as
we all have about sexism in the workplace, harassment, the

(15:30):
things women face. It can't just be us who talk
about it. We need men to talk to men about it. Yes,
and I really was impressed that in an episode of
television that aired in two thousand and seven, we were
modeling the thing that happens all the time. Whereas women
are blamed for the bad behavior of their spouse, this
doesn't happen to men. If a woman goes off and

(15:51):
does something, people are like, well, that guy's wife. But
if a guy does something, they're like, want, what was
his wife doing? You know, we've seen this play out
over and over again on large and small, national, global scales.
That our little teen TV show in two thousand and
seven had a man. Haley didn't have to go do it.

(16:12):
The man went in and said, you don't punish my
wife for what I did. She has nothing to do
with this. What a thing to model, By the way,
not just for teenage boys, but for grown ass men.
I love yeah, Yeah, I like that he did the
clean up, But I didn't love that Haley was like
it's okay, Like yeah, I didn't feel like it was
okay for Haley. I wanted her to be allowed to

(16:35):
model being upset. Yeah, I'd be like, God, damn it.
I worked, you know, twelve years for this, twelve my
whole life, I've worked for this, and I'm still that
victorian having gone on tour and being pregnant. I'm doing
it with like crazy obstacles. Yeah, there just wasn't room
for it in the I think realistically there wasn't room

(16:56):
for it in the episode. There were just too many
other ups and downs. And we've already seen Haley be
you know, with the porn tape and all or the
sex tape or whatever that. You know, she was like
reasonable about I mean, you're not allowed to be emotional, right,
So at this point it's like, Okay, I guess I
just had to lean into I'm about to have a baby.
I can't let this kind of stuff freak me out.
I'm just gonna have to go with it. So right,

(17:19):
But I agree, it would have been nice to see that,
like a moment with your girlfriends. Yeah this motherfucker. Yeah
not just in the hallway Turner saying I've worked really
hard for this, Like come on, but with us. But
I think you're right. Joy We're getting into those end
of the season episodes where they're cramming so much in Yeah,
like you said it, Hill, if you had an issue,

(17:40):
you'd go to Whitey, But Lucas can't go to Whitey
because Nathan and Whitey have a whole storyline. And Haley
and Whitey had a great, great scene. Yes, but like
that's the Nelly and Whitey and then you and I
are having the boy drama with Lucas and Chase. So
so the writers didn't give room for Haley to come
to Peyton and Brooke with valedictorian stuff. It's like they

(18:01):
were trying to just cover all the bases. Yeah, and
I'm sure there were scenes that got cut because they're
always work. Well. It was a big yearbook episode, is
big for Brooke and Chase. My god, yearbooks. That was

(18:21):
the most high school thing that happened in this episode
for sure. Yeah. Sure, do you guys still have your yearbooks?
I do, Actually, I still have my yearbooks. I was
the editor of my yearbook. Of book this sensitive Sally's
nostalgia in the year two thousand graduating high school ran

(18:43):
so deep, you guys. I cried in the yearbook office
multiple times because I was just so overwhelmed with what
it meant for our lives. Yeah, guys, my student government
sponsor came and spent the weekend with me. Missus Johnson
was here and when I tell you that, she and
I polished off a bottle of bourbon going through the
yearbooks and her telling me all that shit I didn't know.

(19:06):
I was like, who is kissing who? And what? We
never think about that, like teachers that might be teachers.
I love, love love the fact that, like our teachers
aren't that much older than us, Like we're the age
that she was when she was teaching me, which blows

(19:28):
my mind. And hearing all that stuff from her perspective,
She's like, oh, yeah, we definitely knew whenever you were
making out with your boyfriend in the hallway, and we
knew exactly what you were doing at any given time. Um,
it's so fun to look at in hindsight. And a
yearbook is something that really gets a bad rap is

(19:49):
being kind of cheeseball and it's like, oh, you're such
a nerd for caring about school. Um. I love those things.
I've lost them so many classmates, and it's so nice,
like in this episode to go back and like they're
captured forever. You know, they'll live forever in this like
little dumb bubble we have of memory. So I'm I'm

(20:13):
pro Yearbook. I love the Yearbook me too. I think
there's something so special that was the stuff that got
me in this episode. You know, when we were watching it,
the three of us were like, what does this episode
want to be? But the mouth standing up for Jimmy
and being sweet to Gigi and like them connecting over

(20:34):
how as kids they could memorialize someone in process and
you know, him getting on the table and giving that
speech because he wanted to give it to his mom, Like, oh,
that guy means those are emotional, Yeah, they're important moments.
What a gift. You know what I was thinking about
when I was watching that was, you know, from an
outside perspective today and maybe even then. I mean, I

(21:01):
think it would be considered deeply offensive to any victims
of Jimmy's like that went through the trauma of that experience,
Like for anyone to speak of him with kindness. That's
that's where we're living right now, and I just think, like,

(21:21):
is it is it fair? And clearly I don't think
it is because and I think this episode showcases it
beautifully to just wipe somebody out because of one terrible choice.
I mean, there was a book written about the Columbine
Boys that talked about there were two very different kids,

(21:44):
and one of them was more troubled than the other
and led the other down a really dark path. And
their mothers have been very communicative with people because I
think they feel beholden to the community to explain why
they happened the way they happened, And maybe because it

(22:05):
was the first like really big one, really bad one
that we all talked about it and could explore the
humanity of those kids in a way that now it's
just a flood. It's like a flood. Now, Like how
do you wrap your head around any of that? Yeah, well,

(22:25):
and the domestic violence portion is a huge point. Go ahead,
But I also think that's something that's really important to remember.
Like when you talk about how essentially we the audience
or Lucas's ally in this we've been Jimmy's ally in
this whole story. Right, we as an audience know who

(22:46):
Jimmy is. We know that he got in a really
bad way that in this storyline he fell into a depression.
You know, when we've talked about, you know, just to
be clear in case you're gonna missed the episode, We've
talked about the fact that that it's not what mass
shootings are. They're different. They're cultivated, you know, anger, violence, supremacy,

(23:06):
domestic violence, all of that that happens to boys. They're
being groomed online for this. Well, that was the thing
we complained about in the school shooting episode. Yes, so
I feel like it's important just to repeat again in
case anybody missed that recap. But I think that's the
difference to your point, Joy is like I would imagine
for a parent of a kid who commits on atrocity

(23:29):
like that today, they think about they're eight year old
and they're ten year old, and they don't understand how
that kid became the sixteen year old who's a mass murderer. Yeah.
I think there's also for us as an audience here
because we knew Jimmy, and we've known the whole time
that Jimmy didn't do it. He didn't kill anybody. He
did a terrible thing and he made a terrible mistake.

(23:50):
But Jimmy's not a kid who decided he was an
in cell and he was being wronged by society, who
walked into a school with a weapon of war and
murdered twenty two people, Like the chasm is so different.
And that's why I wonder because I was wondering the
same thing like watching it. I wonder if because we

(24:10):
have the we have the answers as the viewers of
this show where we can say, it's so meaningful that
we see Mouth fight for the best memories of his
best friend instead of letting him, to your point, be
sort of wiped out in the worst thing he ever did. Yeah,
but I wonder how much grace we're willing to feel

(24:32):
for that because we know that he didn't do Columbine
or Parkland or whatever, you know what I mean? Like,
I really question that, right, But where's the line? And
I don't know the answer to this, but that begs
the question, where's the line? Peyton got shot? If she
had died, would then it be okay? We would feel differently,

(24:55):
would we? Or would it would we still know Jimmy
and know that he, you know, went through this bull
lying experience and felt devastated and just got mentally ill
and troubled, and you know, like, where where is the
line for that? And again I'm not trying to ask
for an answer. If you have one, great, I don't
have one. I just think it's interesting to think about
those things and to be intentional about the thought process

(25:16):
of those things. Well, and it's a good question for
us to be asking, like to interrogate ourselves. Yeah. And
when it's something our show does really well is empathy
and forgiveness, Like that's that That to me is a
really radical form of forgiveness. The what mouth did, it's
outrageous and when you put it in a context. I

(25:38):
read this article. It was a father who did this
big interview about how his son moved back in with
him and his wife and his son got sucked into
that Q and on world. Yeah, and he was like,
my kid, I don't know who he is anymore. He's
violent and he's angry, and he's scary and he's combative.

(25:59):
But I know my kid is in there. I know
my kid is in this person. And he can tell
you because it happened to his son in his early twenties.
He can see where his son changed. And so to
your point, I wonder how we can figure out, like,
is it possible to put a line in the timeline

(26:19):
of a human and mourn who they were before they
were indoctrinated or radicalized or whatever. And I imagine how
could there not be for the people in their lives.
And to your point, again, Peyton was shot. Jimmy isn't faultless,
but he didn't murder Keith. And I think when you're

(26:42):
the viewer and you know people, you're willing to breathe
some room into their life in a way that is
harder now when everything's like two hundred characters on the
internet and you see a headline and you know, or
when you don't know someone, you didn't grow up with them,
you don't have them maras with them. I also think

(27:03):
that redemption, healing, healing from trauma, that's a community project.
I think so many people struggle and fall apart when
they're isolated, when they're alone. We evolved in groups, we
evolved in villages like we need each other. And the

(27:23):
isolation part of how people become radicalized, part of how
these school shooters become who they are is they're isolated
and they're vulnerable. Yeah, that's any cult anywhere exactly. And
while I don't have I don't know anyone who has
been in my life and then been the cause of
someone's death. Some of the most powerful and profound experiences

(27:45):
I have had in my life are sitting in maximum
security prisons with anti recidivism coalition and having some of
the most empathetic, emotionally intelligent, vulnerable, and like charged exchanges
and experiences with men who have killed people and who

(28:07):
in prison have had finally access to trauma therapy, to
group therapy, to group hearing projects, and who have understanding
of what they went through as kids and how they
became the people that they were, and how they were
in the wrong place at the wrong time with the

(28:28):
wrong information, and who have such immense passion for healing
work for other people because they know what it's meant
for them, and they have friends who have not had
access to it, and it's about the access and the
privilege to the access. And I the first time I
was in one of those environments was when I was

(28:49):
deeply in process of my own post traumatic stress. I
really struggled to be in rooms filled with men like that,
and I was like, Oh, I've just had one of
the most profoundly healing experiences for myself as a woman
in this group and this man James, who I will
never forget, who was you know, six five and probably

(29:10):
weighed three hundred and fifty maybe four hundred pounds when
I thanked him in this group conversation for offering that
to me. Started to weep and said, my whole life,
I've only been told that because of my size and
because of the way I look, I was a weapon
and that I could make this tiny little woman who
I didn't know an hour ago feel Safehi is my life.

(29:34):
And like we just sat and cried together and held
each other, and I was like, I wouldn't have known
this about any of you had I not been here
to witness you. But I don't think anybody can heal
or anybody can be redeemed if they don't have access
to a community that gives you another option. And that's
where I think we struggle as a society. How do

(29:55):
we create new systems, How do we show up for
people better? It's part of you know, to take it
all the way back. It's part of what you're doing
with your show Hill. It's like if you create another doorway,
and imagine what happens when there's a door number four
to walk through and all you've ever had your whole
life for the first three I mean what you're describing
is exactly what this episode does. Everybody else is healing

(30:19):
and community and is teaming up in different ways. You
finally see Brooke and Peyton together again, You see Nathan
and Haley together again, You see Mouth and Gigi together again.
And Lucas is on his own, and he is the
one who ends the episode with a fucking gun, Like
that's insane. You're so smart, Hillary, way to bring it

(30:40):
back around. That's right, that's exactly right, our executive producer, Gal.
He's by himself, and that makes you act a rational
don't do that? Yeah. Yeah, if he had talked to
the girls, any of the girls, Haley, Brook, Peyton, his brother,
if he talked to anybody, Yeah, he would not have

(31:02):
ended up with that gun in his hand. Yes. And
you know what, you're reminding me of something, Joy, When
you guys did that scene together, when nobody knows where
Lucas is and then suddenly cool with you in the
hall and you give him the yearbook and he's acting
like everything's okay, it made me so uncomfortable. I felt
the same way. So why is he being so normal.

(31:25):
It's abnormal. Yeah, he's acting like there's nothing wrong, everything's
totally fine. It was creepy. Yeah, but that's why, because
he because that's what happens when you isolate, you you
mask and you pretend like everything's normal, everything's fine. Mm, well,
this is dredging up some major things for us. Yeah, guys, guys,

(31:49):
dark darkness, Oh you know it's not dark. Pay Bermuda shorts,
dumb little Bermuda shorts. Wait, no, you were wearing jets too.
We escaped the curse of the Bermuda short? Did it was?
And by the way, you guys, I talked about this
with the girls when we were watching the Amazone. Not

(32:11):
only am I wearing tight little black Bermuda shorts with heels,
but that blouse that they gave me was obviously too
small for me. Like it. They covered my chest and
they couldn't get the buttons closed on the sleeves on
my arms, so they just cut them off, so the
little arm sleeves are just flapping around. It was a

(32:31):
cute little Victorian top. The important part was the part
we were all looking at. The bosom was on points.
Oh my god, is out of control and you talked
about this recently, like we gotten to this place where
they were giving everyone a color, like couples of color.
So for whatever reason, I had to wear like plum
you would chase were burgundy. They were like, we know

(32:52):
you don't have we don't have the shirt in your size,
but you're gonna wear it, and we'll just cut the
sleeves open to make space for your arms. Pants so
badly want to be cigarette pants, but they just can't.
Please don't go all the way down. It's like they're
almost Audrey Hepburn, but they're the Bahamas in the eighties.
Oh my god, where did we even find those things?
Back then? Was it everything? Banana Republic? It was trendy.

(33:19):
That's why it was very trendy. It was the limited too,
which if you're reading the cut is back. Oh. The
journalists that are our age are like, please, no, don't
bring the bedazzled like rhinestone limited two ties back. Don't
do it. And the kids are doing it. They're doing it.
Are you kidding me? I am not. I'll send you

(33:40):
an article. I will say my outfit aside, I had
such a you know, sometimes we'll talk about how you
have a visceral sense memory. You watch a scene, you go,
oh my god, I remember this they I remember feeling

(34:03):
so just like, oh about the way they put work
through the ringer in the Brook Nathan Haley storyline with
Peyton and the tape and the thing, and I just
didn't like it. It made me feel uncomfortable. I like this,
she won't even she calls it, and the thing, she
won't even say sex tape. She's just like, and you
know that that little tiny thing that happened, the thing

(34:24):
would sooner die. I don't want to talk about it,
you know, Like I don't know. Yes, we do our
jobs as actors and we play what's on the page,
but that doesn't mean we're comfortable with it. No. It
was so cringing, it was so iggy, and I don't know,
there was just something watching these scenes talking about the
yearbook and what was going to go in the yearbook
and who has feelings for who? And you know, bringing

(34:46):
you the two index cards but like my options for
the for the yearbook inscriptions, it just made me feel
this like sweet, like just warm chested feeling of nostalgia
of like, oh, it's so sweet. It's sweet to just
flirt and wonder and kind of go there and say
I really have feelings for you, but then sort of

(35:08):
pull back and see if they respond. I just loved it.
Oh my gosh, they're writing, like pouring your heart out
in his yearbook and then having him only write you
it said, that's such a boy in high school thing
to do. Oh how many times did I have moments
like that? Yeah, call me, please call me over the summer,
Please please call me, call me. Here's my number. I
just remember filming those scenes and like they'd end and

(35:31):
I could feel that, like my face was flush, and
I was just like, oh, this is real, Like this
is real girl giddiness and it felt really nice, you know.
Again going through the you know, the teen drama, ringer
to like give Brook just a little moment of like
sweet giddy fun because the way the chase looks at

(35:55):
Brooke is it's it's innocent. He's not lecherous at all.
He's like he's got a baby face, you know, like
he is not trying to get in her pants. He
is trying to make out. He wants to connect. Yeah,
he really wants to make sure he's not going to

(36:15):
get hurt again. Do we have a drinking tally on
like how many times Chase says I got her really bad.
I loved your commentary when he when he answered your
Brooks question about why did you leave? Why did you join?
What did it because it leave or join? When Brooks

(36:37):
are like, like, why Chase leave Clean Teens? And He's like,
I just I didn't want girls to keep chasing me.
They just all these girls have to beat him off
with a stick. And if I if I said it
was a virgin, they just leave me alone. I think
I wasn't cool and they wouldn't try to use me
for my body. His excuse for joining Clean Teens was

(36:59):
that the girl wouldn't leave him alone. Yeah, he was
just too hot. I was too hot. I gotta go
join this weirdo club, the chicks. There's a flaw, come on,
But I love this. I do. This is the first
time I have to say that I've actually noticed and
like liked Chase for no other reason, Like not because

(37:20):
I didn't. I think I just was focused on other storylines.
And I know COLLETTI was with us for a while
and I guess I just kind of brushed over it.
But in this episode I was like, oh, you know what,
he is really sweet. He's not like a Felix or
like any of these even Lucas who was always so
confused and conflicted. He's just so sweet and sincere. And

(37:41):
I love that for Brooke. Wait wait, wait, because when
you were like I've always not noticed him, I'm like
dull because Haley has Nathan. Do you feel like do
we think I've literally never thought this until this mot
Forgive me. I'm trying to find the words. Are you
responding our girls responding in this episode to Chase beginning

(38:02):
to like give a little bit of the Nathan vibe,
Like just a good guy who wants to learn for
the right girl. Is that what that is? It's gotta
be because that's what every girl says. I mean most
girls in high school anyway. That's what they want, all right.
If you're not looking for a guy with a motorcycle,

(38:22):
well cut me out of that. I'm in a garage
right now with like six motorcycles part next to me.
What we did say while we were watching the episode
is like the boys are working overtime in this episode.
They're all as senior year is ending, saying the right thing,

(38:43):
and so if that's just so kids at home learn
how to articulate like, yes, I'm happy for you. You
deserve this nice thing. Yeah, the way Lucas does that
for you. I loved that you and you said it.
He says every right thing, that's it. It's not that hard.
Don't be selfish, don't freak out guys. As a viewer,
like not as Hillary Burton who participated in this show,

(39:05):
but as a viewer who has not watched this since
probably it originally aired, if I even watched it, then
that was the most attractive Lucas has ever been to
me because he sounded like my husband, yeah, and like that.
It was what he said was so like you're gonna
go kick ass and I'm not going anywhere, so go

(39:28):
like make the world yours. It was so firm, there
was nothing like passive aggressive about it. I'd loved. I
loved Chad's delivery. I loved it was just clean in
a way that I think teenagers can be really confusing
to one another, Like you can say like, yeah, you
should go do that thing, and it's like but that,

(39:49):
but you didn't mean that, did you. Yeah? I absolutely
believed Lucas. Yeah, yeah, and I loved it, even though
he was going through all of that. Maybe it was
because he was dealing with something so huge. I'm glad
he didn't compound the issue and suddenly make it more
about him. He really was just solely focused on his

(40:11):
mom and this catastrophic new information. Um So I liked that.
I like that he just was able to put himself
aside and give you what you needed. I mean, he
was doing a different TV showed this episode, you know,
like with Brook, We're going to party, You're gonna have
the best summer ever, getting tanned, and he's like doing crazy,

(40:36):
he's doing training. I'm realizing as you as you say
that as a viewer who has watched the Nathan and
Haley dynamic and watched the Peyton and Lucas dynamic, it's
almost like and yes, Chris Keller was conflated in Haley's dream,

(40:56):
But as viewers were getting to see Luke say to
Peyton what we kind of wished Nathan had said to Haley,
like go I'll be here. You know, he came, he came,
he drove to the show, and then you went on
stage and then he was gone, like and we were
all so like, no, do it, stay with her. She's
your person. And so I wonder if there's also a

(41:19):
little bit of this idea that these boys are learning
lessons because you said it, Joy, like, this really is
an episode about these boys and what they're going through
their dad, you know, being the puppet master. Like, I
wonder if part of the reason it feels so special
because yes, Peyton deserves it, and for us as viewers,
were like, finally one of the boys did it right,

(41:39):
you know, dude, Yeah he said all the right things. Yeah,
that's growth it is. It is because Lucas before would
have been like, I don't know, I don't know. I'm
going to need some time alone to think about We've
been kind of needy. So yeah, yeah it was nice.

(42:00):
But again, you know, he was a little distracted with
you know, the whole murder of his uncle. I just
like what he had to jump between in this episode
was I loved his last scene though, just I mean,
as an actor, wow, he did a good job. He
did such a good job. I felt worried. I'm still
worried for Dan because we don't know what happened. You know,

(42:23):
it's like kind of like didn't well, it's like you
don't think Lucas has it in him, do you know
what I mean. It's like, there's no way that little
punk kid would shoot his dad. You know, we've seen
Dan strangle him, We've seen Dan assault multiple people. We
saw Dan hit him in the face at the beginning
of the episode. And so how far can you push

(42:43):
this kid? We oh, yeah, we've seen Dan kill his uncle.
How far do you push this kid? Yeah? God, I
can't believe this wasn't our like season finale, you know
what I mean. Definitely feels like a season finale. It's
weird that we're just like left in limbo. We'll get
there next week. Yeah, but this season was bananas, Like,

(43:05):
really think about it. It became so violent this year
in a way that I don't think it was in
years past what was happening in pop culture that was
so violent that they were like, you know what, we
need guns. I think we were just I think we
were just constantly under the shadow of or the fear,

(43:27):
I don't even know what the word is. We were
under the pressure to perform in the same way as
like Gossip Girl and The OC and all these shows
that were in the Vampire Diaries and the stuff that
was like really heightened. I think that was it, right,
that has to be it. At least those guys had
like supernatural elements to their show, you know what I mean, Like, Yeah,

(43:49):
ours is crazy violence in a small town with like
I mean the city. Yeah. Our producer is texting us
in our chat that the Virginia Tech shoot was in
April two thousand and seven. I mean that was after
we shot this though, guys in season three, I thought
the school shooting episode was our one and done with
like the crazy gun stuff, and it just keeps going. Yeah,

(44:12):
we thought it was going to be like a commentary
on something that happened. We didn't know what was going
to happen and ramp up in the way that it did.
But but you're right. I almost feel like, because some
of the supernatural shows and then some of the more
intensely pushing the line shows, we're going so crazy, the

(44:34):
folks behind the scenes on our show felt like we
had to keep up. That's what I was trying to say. Yes, right,
and like we do what we do really well, and
I think luckily, by you know, four years into doing this,
we're established enough that we know how to perform around
these weird you know, it's like they've taken the hula hoops,

(44:54):
were jumping through and set them on fire. Were figuring
it out, but it's like it's on fire. It's really
it's so very intense, and I am curious. I mean,
I will admit, and I don't know if you guys
felt this way, but when we were watching, you know,
it's so bizarre that Lucas gets a gun from Deb

(45:15):
and thank God for Barbara Allen Woods just committing to
add of nowhere, Deb's Deb's lupie and she's got a gun,
like nobody knows why that's happening. Yeah, yeah, wasn't a hawalapinmal?
I don't know what it was. I just I also
liked that they put two cookie jars on the counter. Yeah,

(45:35):
how did he know which one to go in? Why
wasn't it the bumpkin? But well they staggered between all
the lamps, probably, but I think there was a lamp
next to the pumpkin. But truly, it's like, it's so weird.
Think God, Barbara committed. But yeah, it's just this wild
thing that they make him do. But in that scene,
I thought, well, here's this teenage boy, and he's having

(45:57):
this really intense moment and he knows what happened and
nobody's listening. Panic is ensuing. Fine, I did not remember
that he pulled the trigger? You guys? I didn't same?
Oh yeah, like like I legitimately have no idea what
we're going to see next episode? Did he miss did
he shoot the wall? Like? What happened? Like, guys, can

(46:18):
people at home tell us if you? I mean, I
guess if you've seen the show multiple times, you remember,
But guys, I don't know what the show is right now.
It's also like, either way it's going to be because
if he if he shoots Dan, then there's all kinds
of repercussions. But if he misses at such close range,
he's really terrible shot. Join he's gonna be embarrassed. Shame, shame.

(46:53):
But okay. So here's the thing though, with all the crazy, crazy,
crazy stuff in this episode, I think what our leadership
was forgetting is that the best scenes the quiet ones
and then nice ones. And it was the scene where
Mouth took the yearbook to Jimmy Edwards. Mom, that is

(47:14):
where was her? Emmy? Like that was so beautiful and
nuanced and all of us started crying, we should write
her a note on Drama Queens stationary to tell her
how much we appreciate that performance. Yeah yeah, but wait,
you guys, yes, we need to get her on the show.

(47:36):
And I'm having an oh my god moment because we're
saying we have no idea what's coming next. But I
just looked at my notes. I was like, maybe there's
a clue on these eighteen posts on my desk. Nathan's
gone to bat for Haley and she's giving that valedictorian speech.
Oh yeah, I know what's coming. I know the fact
that everyone is in that gym graduating. So what the

(47:57):
hell happens to Lucas firing a gun at Dan while
Karen has passed out pregnant That in the next episode
maybe it's the last one. I don't know, But in
the next two episodes, we're all just in our little
blue capping gowns, clapping for Haley given her cute little
speech like what is I feel relieved now? I needed
this relief because guys, I'm serious, like the acid in

(48:20):
my throat giving you heartburn. I need to know what's
gonna be out. Hillary needs two toms and a glass
of water. You know, maybe it's the heightened stuff that
they did that also made this smaller moment stand out more.
That's true. They're diamonds. Yeah, that's true. Okay, we do

(48:46):
have a listener question from Sierra. Do you think it's
the Sierra? Oh? My god, didn't you imagine how cool
it would be? Yeah, she's a huge drama beens fan.
I know it. She can come on our show anytime.
Sierra are Idol asks. You've talked many times on the
show about how the parents aren't featured much and don't
get any history, and the ones that are shown frequently

(49:09):
are underutilized. If you could give one of the parents
a backstory or a history, what would it be. Oh?
I would love to see a whole like literally would
love to see a whole TV series on Dan's childhood.
I love an anti hero. It's like the Penguin or Joker. Yeah, yeah,

(49:30):
the Joker. I could watch that movie so many times. Yes,
I'm so fascinated. It's like the the kid that wanted
to be a psychology major in me. I want I
want to watch that. Yeah, because imagine if you watched
a show about two brothers and one grew up to
be the Riddler and one grew up to be Batman.
You'd be like, obviously, how fun. Yes, you should pitch
that somewhere, Sophia, Okay, you wanted to hear first kids,

(49:54):
we're going to the comic books. They're related. As I'm
watching Karen and I'm like seeing the Lucas Peyton relationship,
it's just now dawning on me after all of these
years that Karen, who does not have a mother and father,
and who has no siblings, and is this like lone
wolf girl, is Peyton Sawyer, Like they're the same person,

(50:18):
And it's only now just making sense to me. Whoa,
that's so interesting. But we'd never ever find out why
Karen doesn't have a family or any friends, like never
one never Who was Karen's brooke Davis in high school? Yeah, yeah,

(50:40):
that's crazy, because I will tell you single moms can't
make it without friends, you can exactly. And like she
was homecoming queen, she was on the Chilean squad. Your
friends don't ditch you, like cheerleading runs deeper than Dan Scott.
Goddamn it. But this is one of the things that's
frustrating about television is look shows have they got the

(51:04):
budget they have, and often writers aren't thinking, well, you
know what we're gonna do. We're going to invest in
one of our two male leads. We're going to invest
in his mom's friends. We're going to see these people
and especially, you know, actors. Let's be honest, like we're
trying to find regular jobs. It's hard to have a

(51:25):
job where you get an episode here in an episode there,
if you're semi retired and you happen to live in
the filming town where it's happening. Cool, but I think
it gets really tricky. We know how it is to
lose characters to booking shows. You know, we did it
on this show. And you can never ask someone to
simey their career to be able to show up only

(51:46):
when you need them. Cool. Simy's a nice word, isn't it.
It would have been so cool to figure out because
there's so much incredible you know, theater and improv and
local talent and Molmington. I would have loved to see
some time with Karen's like cheer squad friends and the

(52:08):
ones who turned their back on her and the ones
who stayed and how they heal as adults like Oh
that would been so cool. Oh yeah, there's a whole
show somewhere, right, Like what if Glenda's mother was actually
one of Karen's friends in high school? Oh, you know
what I mean, And that's why she's fixated on being
popular and stuff, you know. Yeah, what's our honorable mention?

(52:31):
I mean Jimmy's mom, right, Oh, missus give her the trophies. Man.
She was so wonderful and just what she communicates, her looks,
her moments. It's really incredible when you watch somebody who
doesn't say much but says everything with their face. Yeah,

(52:53):
renee Vincent, remarkable, Renee Vincent. That was such a arkable performance.
And we got so lucky with our talent in North Carolina.
The people that came to play with us made us better.
And so I'm so happy that Lee got to have
that moment. You know, he had to do a lot

(53:15):
of really questionable stuff this season, with the Rachel stuff
and the Shelley stuff and even the gig stuff, you know,
and yeah, for him to have this really sincere, genuine
moment with a very talented actor, awesome, extremely talented Renee Vincent,

(53:35):
it definitely gets the honorable mention. I liked everything Lee
had to do in this episode. It was nice to
your point, like really nice to just see him in
his goodness. And then that ultimate moment with Jimmy's mom
with Renee m oh, this is all right? So were
you going to spin a wheel? Are we spinning a wheel?

(54:00):
I don't know how we how we do something lighthearted
for the wheel after this episode, but we're gonna try,
damn it. No, this is fitting. Most like to become
a teacher at their old high school. Interrect. Okay, so, which,
well didn't Haley do exactly that? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, that's
a no dah. Did any of us in real life

(54:21):
go back to our high school and teach? I feel
like you would, Hill. You do fundraisers at your high school.
I go back to my high school when I can, y'all.
I love school, that little ecosystem. Cool. Yeah, all day.
I gotta go in. On Thursday, I'm mentoring Civics Club

(54:43):
and we're doing we're doing a short film on the
Fiddler's Bridge Murder and these kids are doing like local
folk tales and I'm like, yeah, that's that's an education, right,
someone else can teach math. I'm going to teach like
murder and ghosts stuff. That's fun. Is that a real
class murder and ghost stuff? I would sign up for

(55:05):
that class. Yeah. Yeah, it's an ap course. It sounds
like a school, a class in the School of Communications
at college where you're like, yeah, I want to learn
full Yeah. Um. I like going back to visit my
high school. I've done that a couple of times. And
I went pre pandemic and spoke at this savent at USC.
That was so fun and I got to see all

(55:26):
my favorite professors, Like yeah, I just get so excited
when I get to see my teachers, And I think
it's really special when you get to invest in the
places that you grew up in. Yeah. You know who
grew up and worked in a school is Colin Feckis
Lay Jimmy Edwards like co and Go. He was working
in a school and now he works for stock Aide Works,

(55:49):
which is a film nonprofit up here, which is pretty
much a school where it teaches people who do like
vocational jobs how to apply them to film and so
he's still in the process of teaching. That's full circle.
It really is. So it's Colin Colin for real life,
and I feel like we gotta go teach a a

(56:12):
class about podcasting or something. We should be guest lecturers somewhere.
Oh well, I'm doing an Artist in Action day and
like two weeks they're like, they're like, Hillary, will you
come give the keynote to a bunch of middle schoolers?
And I'm terrified. I was like, what is it, entail?
And they're like, I don't know, whatever you think middle

(56:34):
schoolers need to hear. And I'm like, what, No, Like,
let me just light myself on fire real quick. I
literally talked to any other age group middle schoolers. So
terrifying because I just walked up. My daughter was at
a we were all sort of like a house paray,

(56:55):
like an after basketball party, and she had gone upstairs
with some of the all the adults were hanging out downstairs.
She had gone upstairs to some girls. I walked up
there to say goodbye to her because I was leaving,
and I walk in the room. I'm you know, knock knock,
Who is it? Oh, it's miss Joy. I'm coming to
say goodbye Marie. Okay. I opened the door. I walk in.
It's like a it's a the room. All the lights
are out, but the black lights are on and like,

(57:18):
Maria's across the room, so I have to walk through
a gaggle of like twelve and thirteen year old girls
to get to her. And I wasn't even thinking. I
just walk in. I get halfway through the room and
I'm like, I'm in the wrong placed, and I just retreated.
I didn't. I just shouted at her from across the room.
I was like, I love you, come by, and just
retreated out like I'm so sorry. I'm really sorry. There

(57:43):
is nothing cool you can do in middle school high
schools where um, all right, well guys, we get to
graduate so soon, so soon. I think it's in the
next episode. Yeah, all right, we're gonna see your big speech.
What is it? Season four, episode twenty the Earth and
Death of the Day. Jeez again, Maybe the birth is happy,

(58:06):
maybe Jamie comes. Yeah, yeah, I got high hopes. I
need to cling to some happiness here. Okay, fingers cross,
all right, we'll see you guys next week. Thanks for
hanging out show, Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to
leave us a review. You can also follow us on
Instagram at drama queens oth or email us at drama
Queens at iHeartRadio dot com. See you next time. We

(58:32):
all about that high school drama. Girl, Drama Girl, all
about them high school queens forever. We'll take you for
a ride at our comic girl sharing for the right
teen drama queens girl fashion, but your tough girl, you
could sit with us. Girl Drama, Queens, Drama, Queens, Drama,
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