Making Amends • EP410

Lucas receives an unlikely visitor, Nathan and Dan battle guilt, and Brooke and Peyton attempt to patch up their differences. What will everyone learn? The recap of this episode gets into deep feels, as Hilarie, Joy and Sophia admitting that rewatching this one made them all fall in love with the show again.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
First of all, you don't know me. Were all about
that high school drama, Girl Drama, Girl, all about them
high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in
our comic girl sharing for the drama Queens Girl Fashion,
but you'll tough girl. You could sit with us. Girl Drama,
Queens Drama, Queen's Drama. Queen's Drama drawn MC Queen's Drama

(00:22):
Queen's Guys back to such an emotional episode, Season four,
episode ten, Songs to Love and Die By. It originally
aired December six, two thousand six. It was like kind
of the first time we mentioned the holidays, also, which
was cute. Inside of a sad container, Lucas received an

(00:45):
unlikely you and your containers supposedly, didn't you know I
love a container. Hayley's life and the life of her
unborn child are threatened when she experiences serious complications with
her pregnancy yet because she got viciously hit on a
car that's not in the synopsis, but it feels important
to say. And Nathan wrestles with the guilt and consequences
of his dealings with Dante. Dan tries to make amends

(01:07):
for Keith's murder, and Peyton and Brooke try to patch
up their differences. Who I loved this episode. This is
one another one of those that made me love our
show so much. I don't know, I don't know, yes,
I mean absolutely, there's a couple of scenes I would
like to step fire to the episode itself if we

(01:33):
could have had control, and like, because by this point,
for our friends at home, you've probably heard us talk
about how there was always something that wound up getting cut,
like really important parts of scenes, really important scenes, because
our episodes were always a little overwritten, and then we
would lose stuff that was so good. And yeah, there
were there were two scenes I would have loved to

(01:54):
throw on the cutter room floor and burned. I choose
it's almost like about somebody's ego. But the episode itself
was beautiful and like, there was really something about the
way that having Keith having this you know, world between

(02:15):
worlds for Keith and Lucas created a space to really
talk about the things these kids have been learning over
these verse four years. And you know, we talked about
how in the last episode it felt like the pilot
was inside of of four oh nine, and now here
we are in four ten and we're really talking about

(02:36):
like what we've learned, how we show up, who we
all the seasonssodes and I thought it was really beautiful
and I thought, I mean, a what a dream to
have Craig Schuffer back Had. Craig and Chad are so
good together. It's so real. He does such a nice
job leading this episode because Had does vulnerability really well.

(03:02):
He does sort of that lost little boy really well.
You're endeared to him. Um. He he. I don't know
if he was working out or what, but he looked
like his skin was glowing. He looked really great in
this episode in particular too, um. And he just really
opened up like it was so nice to see him
as an actor. And Lucas just kind of unzipped the

(03:25):
chest cavity and open up the heart and be like, okay,
here I am, I'm I'm ready to explore all of
this um, which definitely wasn't easy for Lucas to have
to walk through all those things and um, but I
loved it. We needed that, We need that as a guide,
and it feels like we get back to who Lucas
was in the beginning. You know. The we talked a

(03:48):
lot like in season one about how the writers swung
him into like bad boy girls like they did. All
this stuff that, you know, knowing who are writers were
made is all pretty uncomfortable, like, oh wow, we didn't
even realize what was being modeled for teenage boys. And
now it's like we're coming home. He feels familiar and

(04:10):
he's been growing back into this person obviously for such
a long time. But it's cool that the contrast, it's
almost like they realized who let him go back there? Yeah,
it's emotional stuff is what works so beautiful. We catch
so much because we're not like Lucas. Look as look
at I get m all the time. I chi don't

(04:34):
talk about Lucas enough to be clear, Lucas in this
phase of bouncing between chicks and change in his mind
who he's in love with is not ideal. It's not interesting.
But if Lucas were vulnerable with these girls the way
he is with his mom and the way he is
with Keith, oh my god, he would be yes, just

(04:57):
so insatiable, like like it. He would be so hot
if he could talk to Brooke this way, and that
was Brookes's whole thing. She's like, you don't let me in.
I know it's in there somewhere. The audience gets to
see you do it with other people. I don't get
to see you do it. It's sexiously. This kind of
made me wish that Lucas and Peyton had not had

(05:17):
that kiss at the Stage championship game, that that moment
she walked away, it would have just because in real
life that happens all the time. You let them, you
let the big moment pass you by. You don't you
don't take the risk in the split second that you
have it and it goes away and you're like, shoot,
am I ever going to get that chance again? And
I wish that they hadn't had that kiss because this
would have been such a because also in the last

(05:37):
episode you were saying it felt like such a quick switch.
Wouldn't have been so nice to have all of this
lead up that, Yeah, like you're saying, every time he
looks in Peyton's eyes, he realizes that he made a
difference in her life and that they're kind of made
for each other. And then have him wake up, Now
we have something else to look forward to, just building
that anticipation. Yeah, like what if he'd woken up from

(05:58):
this and then it's you have to be confetti guy, Confetti,
don't give us Come on, that's even more romantic. That's
like devastating that they almost kiss in the confetti, but
then the moment doesn't happen. Better sweet in that moment

(06:19):
where you just like, I'm not ready to have this coversation. No,
but it is. It's so cool, like that would have
been great joy. You're right, but I will say I
just I can't. I can't let go of how much
I love seeing and you said it, seeing that the vulnerability,

(06:41):
seeing that the way that you show up matters for people. Yeah,
you know, it's it's such a beautiful lesson. And you
see everybody showing up in this episode, in his twisted way,
Dan is showing up for his son and trying to
pay penance about his guilt, even though says I don't
know if we can ever go back. She shows up

(07:02):
for Peyton and goes to find her and does work
behind the scenes, talking to Lucas saying I need you
to take care of my best friend, and unbeknownst to Brook,
Peyton is showing up for her. With Haley, everyone is
really trying to show up. Peyton even shows up just
by being vulnerable and asking Brooke, can we be friends again? Peyton,

(07:23):
who usually just does everything on her own, she doesn't
ask a lot of people for help. To see her
asking for what she needs was really nice, and it's
nice that there's an honesty. It's so clear that these
two girls love each other so much and they're they're
just in a bad place. And it's nice to see

(07:45):
people who will show up and say I don't know,
but I will be here. There's so many good lessons
in this and Keith offers the space for that. And
when you think about it, in our earlier seasons, when
Lucas does lose his and he falls into the popular
tropes and all the things as Nathan's wouldcome in the
good guy leaving the popular tropes behind, and Lucas is

(08:07):
falling into them, it's Keith who who challenges him and says,
who are you? What kind of person do you want
to be? And now even though he's gone, it's Keith
who's saying to Lucas, look who you are, look at
what you're being. A good person has done. It's so special.
It's weird. You know, when when we first did the

(08:28):
pilot of this show, they were supposed to be this
kind of otherworldly element where Whitey is describing everything going
on to Camilla, his dead wife. I missed him in
this episode, by the way. Yeah, that would have been
good to have him in the hospital anyway, Sorry, go ahead.
So there's always kind of been this haunting thread in

(08:50):
our show that they were really trying to get to,
you know, and they got there with this episode. You know,
it turns out that it's not Whitey, it's Keith. Is
that voice that's in everybody's ear and it is watching everything,
And part of me wonders if there was some remorse
on the executive level about being, you know, kind of

(09:13):
impulsive about getting rid of Craig. You know, he like
you don't know what you have till it's gone. And
Keith definitely left a void. We needed that salt of
the earth, paternal voice. And Keith is the one who
allows for Lucas to grow into a version of him, Like,

(09:36):
you know, the Lucas Keith dynamic is so special, and
the Craig and Chad dynamic is so good, and so
not only do we as viewers feel the void of Keith,
but there's a void for work that Chad gets to do.
It's Craig. All of a sudden, that's gone and you
get him back for an episode and you go, oh
my god. It's not to say that it's not so

(09:59):
tremendously special to watch Lucas and Karen. Of course it is.
But there's something really magical about Yeah, we needed him
that triangle and you know, they lopped a side of
it off and it was it was he felt for
a really long time. Yeah, I agree. I thought it
was interesting watching Dan in this episode because it made

(10:23):
me think about it's interesting seeing someone wrestle for their soul.
He's made such terrible choices throughout his life and done
it in a way where he's clearly built himself, in
his own mind into a person who is above I
guess above moral reproach, who also feels that he can

(10:48):
get away with a lot of things, and um, life is,
life owes him things, and so he's built this pattern
of behavior, but he's never done he's never crossed over
the line. Like I think a lot of us look
at our lives and we're like, well, okay, I may
do this and that, but I don't do this or that.

(11:11):
Flawed but I'm not a sociopath, right, And uh, there
was a couple of things that I thought were interesting.
One I heard something this weekend that was it was
inside every seed I posted on my Instagram. Inside every
seat is an entire forest. Um inside. Basically, it's the
possibility of you know, any small thing can grow into

(11:33):
an entire thing. So that could be uh, your character development.
The good things that you do could be lies, gossip,
it could be anything. And the little seed that was
in Dan that grew into all this this forest of
horrible behavior, and then now he's crossing over into murderer.
And it's like watching him wrestle with the idea that oh,
I'm okay doing like dabbling in all these little bad

(11:55):
moral things, but that doesn't really matter. And then he's like,
maybe I can get away with murder too. He does it,
and now he's in a real legitimate battle for his
soul in a way that he never acknowledged before. Sorry
if that was long winded. Thought it was interesting. I
don't have a conclusion about it. I just thought it
was so interesting the moment where Nathan says to him, Dad,

(12:16):
you didn't kill anyone, and Dan had to just sit
in it. Not only did I kill someone, I killed
my brother yea, yeah, but he's such a cool This
is why I love Dan because even though we love
to hate him, there there is something so true about

(12:37):
the fact that we are all human and we are
all capable of wonderful and terrible things. And it's it's
a mistake, I think, to look at ourselves and go,
it's okay, I only do these things and not those things,
you know what I mean? Like anything can turn into
anything else. You have to be careful absolutely. And what

(13:00):
I loved was in that scene I wrote it down
when Nathan says, you didn't kill anybody, and Dan says,
in many ways, I'm right where I should be. Yes,
he's trying to tell Nathan he's at peace with this,
and Nathan can't understand because he doesn't know the truth.
And it's so it's it's riveting to watch James and

(13:21):
Paul together in this episode, and it's riveting watching Paul
and Craig in that scene in the jail into it,
and Craig there was something like so on fire in
his life saying those words, you know, as Keith to Dan,

(13:41):
I forgive you and knowing that it would eat him alive.
And it was like, oh, I actually caught myself holding
my breath during the scene. I was like, oh my god,
I'm wanna pass out because I was just like frozen
watching the two of that. It was really I don't know,
I was viewer. It was like, very well. I liked.

(14:03):
I like that little bit of territorial vibe that Keith
was putting out where he was like, she's never gonna
love you, Danny, Like cool, I've been haunting you. I've
been little boy Keith to haunt you for all the
other stuff. But now you're coming from a woman who's
carrying my baby. Keith is here now and I'm not happy,
And here my bloody eyeballs. You know, I'm terrifying. I

(14:26):
loved here my bloody eyeballs. Yeah. No, he got he
got like spooky, he got scary. And so that duality
of ghost Keith, where it's like I can be the
cute little brother that's just like kind of irritating, or
I could also be you know, really terrifying and you're
confined to the cell. There's nothing you can do to

(14:47):
get away from me right now. What I love too
was the use of our sets. In this episode, we'll
talk about that, talk about John as John. Ashtre did
such a good job. And I said this when we
were watching the show, and I just feel like I
should say it now because we mean it as a compliment.
Like I think we were all at a bit of

(15:09):
a stage. You know, we were four years in. There
were like things that we rolled our eyes about, and
like Ashra and Chad were always setting fireworks off and
getting people in trouble, and we were judging about it
because I'm sure so much younger than any other director.
He was much more of a peer. He was like
if you had a slightly older brother in college, and

(15:31):
and like we loved him, but we I don't know
that we knew what a good director he was because
he was like a prankster because he was a boy.
He was like like they were like cranking and we
all were like, oh my god, quit keeping us at work,
like because you guys were sitting stink bombs off in
the stages. Like and now watching back at this episode, y'all,

(15:52):
the three of us were just like blown away. This
is really the cuts, the way that they did these transitions,
Like Ethan, you know Dan with his head bowed down
in jail, and then it perfectly morphs into Nathan with
his head bowed at the hospital. The way that all
of these sets opened into other sets, hospital elevators to

(16:12):
the quad, like nobody had ever shot our show like this. Yeah,
it was so well done. So really the moral of
the story is, in case John Asher's listening, just please
know that we're giving you all of your flowers. And
we're very impressed. Shut He always takes risks. I love
that about him As a director, you know that they

(16:34):
don't always pay off. Like every artist, you get on
stage sometimes and you bomb, But if you're taking the risk,
at least you know what works and what doesn't work.
And we had a lot of directors who came in
and just kept playing it safe because they wanted to
keep getting more jobs. And there's certain you know, you
have to keep a consistency of the tone of the
show and things like that. So I liked that they
brought him in for an episode where you could take

(16:55):
risks and be creative because they knew that he would.
He always takes the risk. They knew they could trust
him to do that, and I mean, I kid you not,
when that hospital elevator door opened onto the quad. We
all gasped. It's Wizard of Oz. It was so cool.
And then whatever set turned into the high school hallway,
Like everything was just so freaking cool and well done.

(17:19):
And it really didn't make me even you know, not
just watching our show for our podcast, but as an
actor and as a director, it really made me feel inspired.
It was a nice reminder of what's possible. Yeah, well,
there's a subtle thing that happens in your brain when
the rules get thrown out, and it puts you on
a subconscious edge, you know. And so when we see

(17:42):
the nurses passed through Peyton's bedroom, and it's like because
because we made the comment, it was like the lighting
was the same, you know, like nothing was off in
Peyton's room. The boys were just kind of being voyers
watching Peyton and Brooke have that moment. And then these
nurses walked through and that's weird, and we fall of
the ones head and all of a sudden, we're in
the hospital and really, like from those early moments on,

(18:05):
we know as an audience that there are no rules,
that literally anything can happen, and so you're glued to
it because if you miss it. There's no way to
predict what's going to happen, um and that stuff. You know,
that's fun that. I think everyone from our hair and
makeup team to our a d staff, to our camera operators,

(18:29):
like everyone got a real kick out of doing something
really different. And this is really when you know we
We've been saying it for a while now. Season four
is when we started jumping the shark all over the
place because it was like, we played by the rules before,
no one paid attention to us. So if we throw
them out, maybe maybe that's who we are now. I
don't know. It's really cool to see, you know, not

(18:59):
everybody gets to be on a show for as long
as we did, and it's really cool to see the
risks taken because this risk paid off and was so
emotionally charged and touching and thought provoking, and some of
the risks when we would jump the shark, we're just
so dumb. We did have a moment like that in

(19:20):
this episode at the grave, guys, the morphing. Okay, let's
talk about the more. Well, let's talk about the woman.
Where did you so you found this woman? You said
she wasn't cast? Yeah, yeah, this was one of those
cool like we live in a small town in Wilmington's
kind of deals. Um. When we shot at the record store,

(19:42):
that was towards the beginning of the episode, um, and
like the beginning of the eight the beginning of our
eight days of filming. And they hadn't cast this woman
to play me yet, and so casting had sent a
bunch of pictures to John Asher to like, look at
these people, see if they look off like Hillary. And

(20:02):
he was going through the pictures on set and I'm
looking at them and like some were like, oh um,
this isn't a very flattering option. Okay, you know, like
you're looking at people that are supposed to look like
old you. And so we're going through and it's like
some are okay, some are, but like nothing was really hitting.
And there was a crowd that had gathered outside and

(20:24):
there was this spicy woman, like spicy and she I
think she actually had like red hair, um, and she
was outside with her husband, like wearing go go boots
and a mini skirt and was just being like, look cool,
and she's like what's going on here? And you know,
I was like outside probably smoking or something, and I
started talking to her and I become fast friends with

(20:46):
this woman, and I was like, are you going to
be here for a couple of days? And she's like, yeah,
I'm here for the whole week. And I went inside.
I was like, can this woman be me? And we
were the same exact height and we had the same
exact eye color. And I hate that they put that
wig on her because she was like a super sexy
woman and they put this full wig on her. But

(21:06):
I just had a connection with this lady. And that
was fun about having John as a director because it
was like, can it be her? And yeah, why not
make it her? And so it was cool. She came
and hung out in there and makeup trailer as they
dulled her up, and then my body had to morph
or her body morphed into mind. It was why an

(21:27):
episode filled with so many gorgeous transitions. And by the way,
I said it a minute ago, when they layered James
and Paul over each other and did the transition, it worked.
Why couldn't they just have like done a fade from
a plate shot of her into you. The moreph the

(21:47):
like full Transformers moment. It was such an emotional scene
and it made us all burst out laughing you said it.
You were like, well, that took me out of any
experience I was having. Yeah, I cackled, I mean for me,
and I did it. Yeah, why didn't they have her
bend down to put the flowers in the long black
coat and then stand up, stand up, you know, in

(22:10):
a long black coat. But I said, Peyton wears no
coats in this episode. It's clear that I'm freezing, freezing,
freezing episode. I couldn't used the coat at the graveyard.
That's because our costume designer was gone and we had
no nobody, so just fell through the cracks. We're looking
to get her at the house. First of all, when
we leave the state championship, we all have our full

(22:33):
cheer uniforms. We have the zip ups and the pants
under our strap. But then magically, when I come to you,
I have no pants under my miniskirt. You have no sweatshirt.
And we leave the house and go to the hospital,
and you don't grab a sweatshirt, a coat, a purse, nothing, anything.
You're just standing there in your little tank top looking
so cool. I said. I was like, like, I don't

(22:56):
know what happened, but the whole the whole episode for me,
Peyton doesn't know to do with her hands, like there
it is just an exercise, and like where do I
put my arms? And there's that moment in the hospital
when Brooke and Peyton come in and Nathan sitting in
the lobby and he leaves and you and I don't
know what to do, and we like a sort of

(23:16):
hug but also not well because it's like our instinct
is to hug each other and then we're like, oh,
which we're mad, so I'll just awkwardly grab your hands
and lean into your body. Watched. I thought it was
so realistic and funny. That's the biggest But by the ways, okay,

(23:38):
hold on. As funny as that is, Like, we do
need to say something because what leads to that moment
between us is not funny at all. It's Nathan literally
saying he wished he died in that water, and Joy,
I think you said it while we were watching the episode,
like we are not addressing the trauma that this young
man has been put through repeatedly all yeah, he he

(24:02):
keeps saying I should have died, I wish I died.
Like this is heavy, heavy stuff. Yeah, Hillary, you brought
this up several episodes ago. It was probably like a
couple of months ago, but that's it was when he
was in the race car accident and nobody was really

(24:22):
everybody was like, oh, Nathan's going through a hard time. Uh,
nobody was naming it. And then he does it again here,
and then he does it again again on the bridge here. Um. Yeah,
it bothered me that nobody was really dealing with that. Well.
I think also at this time, I feel like there

(24:45):
was always like like there was something feminine about teenage suicide.
You know, like no one ever would think that like
the jock, the you know, the captain of the basketball
team or whatever, would be suicidal. But Nathan says, over
and over and over again, guys, I want to die. Guys,
I want to die. Hayley left me. I'm a mess.

(25:06):
My parents are a mess. I'm going to take all
these drugs. I'm gonna like this kid has been on
suicide Watch since season one, and no one is calling CPS,
no one's calling the school counselor, no one's doing anything.
They're just like, well, you know, no one's taken him
to therapy. Nobody, and to your point, nobody's naming it.

(25:28):
And I think at the time, it was such a
big deal to even see a boy on TV talk
about his feelings that people were like wow, and nobody
was taking it the next step farther and saying this
is a cry for help. What this person is saying
is so Nathan was really the one that needed the

(25:50):
journey to see what his impact in life has been
and matters. I mean, if we're really going to break
it down that that is probably what was needed. But
I like the way they did it. I just like,
I'm looking at this now going my gosh, I wish
there was some way Nathan could have been incorporated into that,
or maybe that's his journey over the next few episodes.

(26:10):
I'm not sure. He had that nice episode a few
a few back when Chad wasn't around, like when Lucas
wasn't on the basketball team, and the whole episode focused
on Nathan and he was like in a winning moment
and it was fun to watch. It was fun to
watch him like man up um. But they take him
through these really man at highs and lows that are

(26:32):
exhausting as an adult. You know, the the idea that
it's a kid that's navigating this kind of Yeah, like
the huge difference between the two feelings. You know, this
kid grew up in an unstable, abusive household. It would
track ye, his dad was obsessed with the highs and
when it wasn't high. We're going to need to have

(26:55):
a therapist on the show at some point just to
diagnoque all the characters. But actually it didn't happen in
the nine years of the show. We should do it
for our friends at home. UM, we would imagine that
there are some clinical psychologists and therapists among you. Um,
if you are, will you send us a d M

(27:16):
at our show Instagram because we really do want to
have somebody come and talk about um where we just
weren't going in oh six, because we're ready to go now.
We love talking about therapy. Something that's an issue that's
raised in this episode that I don't know that it's
really answered, but it is an interesting topic because Lucas

(27:37):
brings it up of what's the point of being a
good person of bad things happen? And it seems really
applicable in our society today to the ideas that if
you if you do the right things, if you kind
of check the boxes and behaves the right certain ways
that you'll earn the good things that happen in life,

(27:57):
like good good things will happen for you if you
do good things. Um. And it's interesting to see a
teenager faced with the reality that there really are not
any guarantees in life. And you you can be a
wonderful person and still have lots of horrible things happen
to you all the time. And you can be a
really bad person and have lots of you know, circumstantially

(28:20):
great things happen to you all the time. I Mean,
there's plenty of people that we look at in the
world and we're like, how does that person have so
many quote unquote good things in their world when we
know what a horrible person they are, or you know,
vice versa the other way around, you know what I mean.
We have plenty of friends and people that we love.
And I'm sure I've felt this way before in my life.

(28:42):
I'm sure you guys have to where you're like, I'm doing, like,
aren't I a good person? Aren't I? Like? Haven't I
earned like to not have all these horrible things just
flooding at me over and over. Um, It's interesting to
see a teenager wrestle with that that there's no guarantees. Yeah,
and I think you know, we got that amazing, you

(29:04):
know thread on Twitter from that writer who's been talking
about the journey of this show. Um, you know, Joy,
I know you you're off, but he he wrote this
really beautiful article about the things we shared. And I
know we talked last week about how it was so
surprising to us that that was news because all the
grown ups in the room told us we were being

(29:25):
babies and it wasn't a big deal. Um, and now
you hear the world go, wow, that's really up. That's
a really big deal, and you go cool. So we
were being gaslighted in two thousand sis when the word
didn't exist. Great had a hunch, but everyone told us
we were crazy. And you know, he wrote about how
there are people who get upset that we talked about

(29:46):
the experiences and the facts and like what didn't work
and what was happening behind the scenes. And you know
in some of the responses that Hall and I sentsence
we're still on Twitter, you know, the it all boils
down for me to thank you for seeing it and
for being willing to really lean into that truth and

(30:06):
that's what we're talking about in this episode is like
the good and the bad is inextricably linked. And we
were talking to this writer about how look for everyone
at home they have this hundred and eighty seven hours,
the hundred and eighty seven episodes that we made over
the course of nine years. We did it for a
decade of our lives, all day, every day, seventeen hours
a day. It's so much more complicated. The highs and

(30:29):
the lows and the great moments that were mixed in
with some really terrible ones that, by the way, are
in this episode, Like it's that's real life. And I
think I worry sometimes that the detriment of what we see,
you know, the clean episode of television or what you're
referencing joy when you look at, you know, what somebody's

(30:49):
doing in life on Instagram and it looks really perfect,
like it's all the edited moment versus you know, it's
the one hour the forty three minute episode owed versus
the eight seventeen hour days it took to make it.
Like we see these compressions and we don't get the
whole story. And maybe that's why we love episodes like

(31:10):
this so much, because they go deeper into what's going
on underneath. They get deeper into the idea of a
whole story for people, For friends who say, I love you,
but I can't be around you. I'll always be here
for you, but I don't know if I'll ever feel
the same way about you. Like, that's so much more
real than what we get presented a lot of the times.
And maybe that's the reason that episodes like this hit

(31:32):
for us. And maybe it's the reason that some of
these podcast episodes like trigger like a relief and a
truth for a lot of people, because most people don't
have these conversations publicly. Have you guys had you know,
that's a good point about Brooke and Peyton, you know,
saying maybe I don't know if I can have the
same relationship with you as I did before and stuff.

(31:56):
That's a conversation that's definitely happens a lot in romantic
relationships and interactions. Have you guys had complicated friendships like
that where you've had to have conversations like that before.
I feel like it just doesn't happen a lot in friendships.
People just kind of like fade. They just start like,
I don't have the energy and they just fade out.
I've drawn browndaries. Yeah, I mean, I've broken up with friends. Um,

(32:20):
but do you have like the conversations and you really
like wrestle it out with them or is it just
sort of like there's just over time. Yeah. I mean
I had a friend that was disinvited to my wedding
ended up coming last minute, and because you guys talked
about it, like we talked about it and then decided
even after that, like it's not gonna work. It's just

(32:42):
not gonna work. And we tried. We've been hanging onto
something that doesn't exist anymore. And I don't I don't
like your ethics, you don't like mine. We're good, you know,
And it's a much longer process than we can present
in a one hour TV show, especially if you're both
really trying. Yeah, Um, but they're they're difficult. They're really

(33:07):
in high school. That happens more than adulthood. I'm trying
to think of because I feel like, yeah, in high school,
your emotions run hot. I don't think I had it
so much in high school, Like I went to school
with fifty five girls entire class. I would have had
it once a week in that environment, like you couldn't
really have friend breakups because we're environment was so small.

(33:32):
What was more what became more true for me was
and I find this in cycles like I've I've definitely
had this in romantic cycles, like I remember being young
and being in a really terrible relationship, and then like
in my like about ten years later in my early thirties,
I was like, oh, I see what the universe is doing.

(33:52):
You know, when you get presented with a challenge to
see if you learned a lesson, that's what this is.
I didn't learn it fast enough, but I see it,
and that's growth. So it's us therapy cycle, you know.
And I got a similar kind of a thing, you know, honestly,
and how lucky we were that we had each other.
But like guys, we got on TV really young, and

(34:12):
I had friends from high school who were thrilled, you know, vocally,
but emotionally very pissed, who wanted me to like take
us to the big party or to the event, or
get us into this thing, or get us tickets to
this concert. So I would like go home to see
my friends from home on the weekends, but then it

(34:33):
would turn into this thing of like, oh, well, you
just think and I'm like, I'm confused. Do you want
me to call the people to go to the thing
that you said you wanted to go to or does
that make me an apple? Like? What what is this
conversation we're having? And there was a gap of you know,
I'd fly home on a Saturday, we'd all go out
and do something fun. I'd come back to you guys
on Sunday, and then by Thursday I'd get a call

(34:55):
from my friend at home that everyone was pissed at me,
and I was like, I'm not even there. Let's sucks happening.
And what I had to realize in my mid twenties
was that, you know, like Margot Robbie talked about this
and I in Australia, I guess they call it tall
poppy syndrome, that like, everyone's happy with your success until
your your poppy gets taller than their's and then they

(35:18):
want to cut you down. She gave us creator about it.
I'm not doing as good a job, but I began
to feel that that it was like we want, we
want you to do well, but not in a way
that makes us feel like we're not doing well. And
then I went through a version of that again in
my mid thirties with some friends where I had a
girlfriend who I mean was like a sister to me,

(35:40):
who I bet over backwards for who like I I
would bring on jobs with me and like not take
a fee so I could offer my fee to her
to cover like the thing she was going through, like
big stuff that I was like, I'm happy to do this.
I'm in a position where I can do this, like
let's go be out there together. And it took me

(36:01):
some time to realize that that was like incredibly toxic,
that I was being taken advantage of that I would
take her on jobs with me, and then I found
out she was trying to deal with the people I
was working for behind my back and and like literally
took a job out of my hands. That's horrible, by
the way, But did you like confront her and have
a conversation and like really hash it out or was

(36:23):
it just like you know what was me was I
We worked on having a conversation for a while and
we would schedule something, and then she kept bailing, and
I was like, I don't know if you're just ashamed
of your behavior or if this is not a priority
to you. But I'm done, like I've I've used up

(36:44):
the runway, and what I see the writing on the
wall for me, And I wrote her a letter and
I wrote it all out, and I was like, this
is what has been happening, and when it's written out,
it's pretty painful to read. And I have to own
that when I love someone, I will often not look
at their negative qualities. And I've played a part in this.
I've allowed you to treat me this way, but I'm

(37:04):
not going to do it anymore. And then it took
months and then I got this like long apology letter
back that essentially plays by him on everyone but her,
and I was like, okay, cool, I just don't have
the bandwidth for it, Like I've done the work where
I can be like, yeah, I really didn't like that
I behaved this way and I reacted to you this
way because of this, and you know whatever, it's not easy.

(37:27):
But I was like, I'm just not I'm not here
for like the excuses and and so it's interesting. I
don't know. I think it can be easier to maybe
stay in a romantic relationship that's not good for you
because you love someone but honestly, I can see where
I've done that in friendships too, because I want to
believe in the people who have gotten into my heart.

(37:51):
And what I've had to come to at this stage
in my life is, yeah, there's some people who have
burned me, but like the of I have with the
people who love me is so special. Like I look
at our friendships, I look at you know, I look
at my best friends at home in l A, Like
we would do anything for each other, like anything, and

(38:14):
I wouldn't want to have loved the wrong people less
if it meant missing out on the level I have
for the right people like this, But yeah, it blows
when you like really get there. And it's quilt to
see high school girls modeling on our show, this conversation.
I'm going to show up for you, and I don't
know if I'm ever going to feel the same way
about you. I'm like, damn, imagine if we had known
how to do that when we were sixteen. Oh my gosh,

(38:44):
Well what I like about that scene because I remember
shooting that scene like it was yesterday. Before we even
watched the episode, I was like, remember the bridge, We're
under the bridge, the bridge of the Bridge of Bridge. Yeah,
I just I have such strong memories of that because
it was kind of a pain in the ask to
get on that ledge, Like we had to like climb
ladder and something. It was really cold and you have
to like try to not fall over the front and

(39:04):
break your neck. Yeah, yes, yeah, don't fall in. But
what I liked about it is that Brook shows up
and starts talking about everyone else. It's like Ellie, your mom, Haley, Lucas,
let's talk about anything other than the elephant in the room.
And Peyton just turns around and looks at her in
the eyes and it's like you, the loss of you

(39:25):
is killing me, and center's Brook. And so Peyton is
like a friend a lot of the time. But she
centers Brooke in a way that I know. I wish
I had friends that would do that sometimes, you know,
where it's like okay, cool, we can we can talk
about all of the noise, we can talk about all

(39:46):
of the peripheral things, just to have a conversation that's easy,
or like we could cut to the quick and let's
do that. And you know, yeah, Peyton loves Brook like
so much. But do you feel like so when you
think about that, because you're identifying something in that conversation

(40:08):
that the ability to cut to the quick and tell
the truth, like when you've gone through a friend breakup.
Because I do feel like that's part of your question, right,
Joy is like do you have you grown into being
able to do that, to just say that thing and
do it or do you let it fizzle? Like you know,
because it's too hard. I usually say the thing, throw

(40:31):
a grenade and then disappear. Yeah, so I'll say it,
but then I'll make it hurt and then I have
to turn into miss. So essentially we're bringing it back
to Asher and Chat in their smoke bombs a little
bit of theatrics. Girls. Yeah, yeah, that's it's hard once

(40:54):
you've been burned, like when you have been betrayed in
that sort of a way where the rug has been
pulled out from under you. Yeah, you have a very
strong alarm bell that goes off around dishonesty. Yeah, you
know when like if you lie to my face, you
could tell me you need help, Like I don't know,
I know the adage is like burying a body, and

(41:15):
then I'm like that that might be a dark example,
like I sunny and then I don't know what I
mean when when when people ask that question, like if
you had to bury a body, who would you call?
Whatever the crisis is, I've got a bobcat, I've got
the pharma. You know, think that like drama queens, murder, cleanup.

(41:35):
I don't know. Yeah, well, my betrayal is on screen
in this episode. I want to talk about abusive relationships.
Talk about it, Okay, just give it all the way. Honestly,
I'm white hot, like like my palms of field grows. Um.
Our boss cast himself in our show, and he cast

(41:57):
himself in a role that I would have to interact
with as this like sage, you know, wise man that
runs the record store, And first of all, he's a
terrible actor. He's a terrible looking man. And to be
super petty, Um, it was a missed opportunity because, as
you guys said, we could have had somebody awesome come

(42:18):
in and so ifia you said it like a musician,
how cool would have been in here for a minute,
because you know, there's going to be some troll who
says that you're criticizing him because you of your personal
experience that our boss was such a bad actor. He's
not a bad he's not an actor, and so Hillary,
you are carrying this beautiful scene. You're looking for something

(42:39):
as a kid like and and music is such a healer.
It really really is like you want to you want
to get something new and get in your car and
turn it up and scream and cry and have the
experience that only a good record can give you. And
you are carrying this scene as Peyton searching for something

(43:00):
unlock the the feelings she has like brimming out of her.
You find something else to articulate what you're feeling. Yeah,
and you're opposite this loser who can't act, who like
for people at home and any of our friends who
you know are also in this industry. You know what
it's like when you go to an audition and the

(43:22):
casting director is like out for the day, so they
have some assistant sitting opposite you who you're supposed to
do this like intensely emotional scene with, and the person's
reading the paper going well, I thought that that was
actually a very bad idea, And you're like, somebody helped me,
or even worse, someone who's actually trying to act but
they're really terrible at it, which is more distracting was

(43:43):
happening in our episode, Like there's no reaction, Like even
when James breaks the record, there's no like startled. There's
there's nobody home and you guys are doing these big
there's nobody home and you're doing these big scenes and
the only thing that this be older man says to
you as do you remember what you were looking for

(44:03):
the first time you came in here? Why does a
grown man remember what a teenage girl was looking for
ten years ago at a record? Right, Like he's been
there the whole time, Like he's the guy that we
always go to to have a conversation with about art.
The whole thing was. But he also had just given
me that iPod in real life that he had with
a hundred songs and they were all like kind of

(44:26):
there were songs like little Miss Can't Be Wrong, and
like songs to kind of put me on my place
a little bit, or just kind of they were they
all had a code, they all had a message, and
so to then have that kind of meta feeling of
it being put in the show, Yeah, I just felt
like I was being beat over the head with this,

(44:47):
like Okay, I get it. Can I had to suck
it up and just stand there. And I felt so
bad for you watching that, like knowing that you're again,
we're so young, and to have put on your shoulders
of stand there and do this scene and be a
professional with this person who has been actively abusing you.
That's not okay. Well we made the best I bet

(45:11):
I was real perky on set that day. You didn't
know you were. But I think what is hard and
what's important for folks at home to remember because some
some of what feels obvious to us because we lived
it for so long isn't always to other people. But
you know, there's two hundred people on a set. There's

(45:31):
a lot of people whose livelihoods and families depend on
that job and our job, no matter what is happening
in our lives or how hard it is or traumatizing,
what kind of loss you're going through. Somebody in your
family could have died, and it doesn't matter. You have
to get up and show up at exactly the time
you're supposed to be there. There are no sick days
like it's it's just not like that. And you had

(45:54):
to come in and you had to do your job,
regardless of all of the ways that you were being
hoped and prodded by that adult. And you you not
only came in, I mean I we watched you do
it for years. You came in and entertained to the
crew and made everybody feel happy, and you acted your

(46:15):
face off in that scene, and again the person you
were acting opposite across from that, there was nobody home,
nothing was going on. We weren't being given any inspiration.
I wanted to trade places with Joy in this episode.
Joy with that head bandage, I'm like, God, d how
do I get that job? But also how many times

(46:36):
did you take a nap and off the whole time?
The whole time? I don't know why we was we
were joking about. I don't know why I was being
punished for something, which is why I ended up with
you know, and not able to really be in the episode,
but also was in crutches for the rest of the season.
I think, um, but yeah, no, I mean it was nice.
It was nice to have a break. I guess I

(46:57):
was like, all right, I'll take it. I didn't really
I'm getting paid. It didn't really get to me. I
was like, fine, yeah, pay me to sleep here on set.
That sounds great. If you notice Daniel's not in the episode,
she kept getting taken away from her. Um Peyton is god,
I had to deal. Um you got violently hit by

(47:20):
a car. Like if they thought that with violence against
women was their ticket to the male audience, they have
doubled down on that Haley hit And at least you
got to be goth Sophia. That was so fun. Oh
my gosh, Goth Brook. I need to see Sophia, like, please,
please do a red carpet goth look one day. I

(47:41):
really want to see that. I would love to. Honestly,
it's like you know when when you see and I
know it's become like a weird social media frenzy gross thing.
But like the the iconography of what the met Ball is,
and like the exhibitions of historical fashion and and like
before it became like an Instagram event, I just find it,

(48:04):
like I have found it to be so like like
like the fact that you that you can have an
alive museum is the coolest thing in the world to me.
And and you know, sometimes they do those things like
there was a there was a year I don't remember
what the theme was, but like some I don't even
remember who he was. Some guy went in like a

(48:26):
full like metal sleeve and glove that looked like something
that you know from from the Catherine the Great era,
like like warrior armor. You know. Um, I find that
all to be so cool. And I'm like, man, if
there was a theme at something like that, like was
hot topic, hot topic, I wanting to blew all of

(48:55):
brooks piercings on on, like the lips and nose and
the bridge and then and it was so fun. And
what we tried to go for with the with the
wig was to not have it be so over. But
when you find out at the end of the episode
that Brooke has gone dark, she's never forgiven herself. She
blames herself in this alternate reality for Peyton's death. We

(49:17):
wanted Goth Brooke to be a reference to Pengel, like
a super long wig that you know. We didn't do
the gray, We did all black. We did the fish nets,
and then we did the eye makeup. Um. We actually
looked at old imagery. See this is where like the
history of fashion is cool to me. We looked at

(49:38):
old imagery of sad clowns, like creepy old French clown
did that like sad clown thing that we would, but
we did it in black for the eyes, so it
looked like she had these like gothic tears the middle
of her like har believe. Really yeah, it was really fun.

(49:59):
I also but I love that our writer's room knows
so little about being goth that they were like, oh, yeah,
one tragedy. You'll do it like God is like put
in you as a little seed when you're seven years
old and it blooms like in middle school. That's your forest.

(50:20):
Golf forest is not an overnight growth. Guy. Well, it's
also speaks me because like I have some friends like you,
I mean you guys know Kenny and friends at home.
My best friend Kenny is like deeply entrenched in the
punk scene, has been in like was in a punk
band that played in sewers in high school. Kenny's caller
idea on my phone is him with like a twelve

(50:41):
inch mohawk. Yeah, it's like punk and goth and all
of those like very specific avenues. Like it's not a
one hit wonder, but whatever. I had to do it,
and so I really wanted and you made it cool. Yeah,
and we wanted to have this reference too, like dark
Peyton in a dark Brook. Yeah, we should have just

(51:04):
stayed dark. Honestly, that would have been so fun. Do
you get more than one line next episode? Joy? Do
you get to say Haley? Haley's parents never show up
still like she's in What does it take for this
girl's parents to show up in her life? Maybe they're
hanging out with my dad just talking about all those
kids back in tree Hill getting almost raped and almost killed. Yeah,

(51:28):
well they really got to learn how to look out
for themselves, you know what I mean? Like, we got
to teach these kids personal responsibility. Got a tough and all.
They need to go to therapy. That's what needs to happening.
Y'all need to come home, They need to have parents
in their house, and they need to go to counseling.
I have two honorable mentions for this Uh, for this episode,
which is James showing up with his amazing emotional work.

(51:51):
I thought he did such a great job and uh,
and the soundtrack I thought was really really good in
this one too. There were some I would love to
just have a soundtrack of this episode because it seemed
like every song I was into. Yeah, I just wanted
to my opinion about those two things. And you know what,
in the honorable mentioned category, we need to talk about

(52:11):
our camera crew. This is what they were able to
do with the director's vision was incredible, and we we
all talked about at the end when you know, when
they begin to do the zoom in on Lucas still
unconscious in the hospital and then you go back into
tree Hill High with Lucas and Keith, and Keith keeps

(52:33):
moving around like he's popping all over the place, and
that that shot does not cut. It's this beautiful rotating
steadicam shot that's like choreographing ballet. It is so so
hard with a whole crew and a bunch of actors
and the camera operator wearing the steadicam rig. It's a

(52:55):
major undertaking and they did it so beautifully. It was.
It was really great. So honorable mentioned there as well. Well.
Keith just repeating himself. He repeats himself to Dan, I
forgive you, I forgive you, I forgive you. And that's
going to be the thing that rings in Dan's ear
for a while. And then he repeats to Luke over

(53:15):
and over again, open your eyes, open your eyes, open
your eyes, and I don't know if you guys have
ever been visited by a dead friend in a dream,
but I have and it I cried in this episode,
not because I was affected by the episode, but because
my visceral memory of that dream with my friend is
still so like, it's so tangible, it's so real that

(53:40):
anything can trigger it. You know, an episode of a
teen drama can trigger it. And it's like I can
smell my friend and the eyes when it happens, it's
in your bone and it stays forever. The idea that
Luke is going to wake up and have that have
that static electricity cling on him from Keith to visit,

(54:01):
I'm excited to see like where that goes. The look
of recognition in his eyes when he opened his eyes
in that hospital bed, not just of it was so
he did such a great job with that. He opened
his eyes and it was like you knew exactly in
that moment that he knew, he knew something, he knew,
Dan killed, Keith knew. It was like he had the information.
Good job. It was really really great. And you know

(54:22):
what else I loved because you brought it up and
the one that I actually wrote down, the thing that
Keith keeps saying, is it's okay, Just breathe, It's gonna
be okay. And you learned that that's what he said
to Nathan in the water, and that that's what he's
saying to Lucas, and he says it to Nathan and
he says it to care every and you realize when
he says when when Luke is almost in tears saying

(54:44):
I don't want you to go, and he says, I'm
with you every day, you realized Keith is with these people.
And that's what did it for me. I like I
could cry right now. That's what brought me back to
my own experience, like waking up in tears from a
dream or or a or an in between places like
visit lost and you go like, I feel it on

(55:08):
the insides of my bone. It's really it was really beautiful.
We all need a visit. Well. We have a listener
question from Nicole who says, so many of the River

(55:28):
Court boys have nicknames. We've got mouth junk skills, Fergie,
does Lucas have a River Court nickname? I don't believe so,
but if he did, what would it be. That's like
a pretty point, you think pretty totally be pretty boy.
I feel like like Skills has called him all all
sorts of a manner of things. Um, but at this moment,

(55:52):
I can't recall any of them. I would use the
nickname from the sand Lot Squints, because we always teased,
We always tease chat about kind of that blue steel
broody look, and Squints is my favorite Sandlot character. Well,
that's why they started calling him broody broody. Remember they
started calling me cheery and you broody him broody? Was

(56:15):
it me cheery or wait? I can't remember. I've never
been cheery in my life, so it was definitely. I
was like, wait, was that like a sarcastic thing that
they said to patting about I'm gonna start calling you
that Hillary Cheery, Hi Cheerry. No. But that's why I
like one of the writers, you know, put that in
an episode and they started calling Lucas broody rudy, and
it is funny Squintson Skills, that's funny Squints and Skills

(56:38):
and feels more like mouth junk like it's more of
a yeah, he nailed it. Good one, Well done you guys,
Thank you so much for joining us for this one.
What a great episode. If you didn't watch it, and
you're just kind of listening to our podcast because you
like hearing our voices in your car or your living room.
Thank you. But also we recommend going back to watch this.

(57:00):
In the last one, they were really special ones. These
are really powerful for sure. Um, ladies, do we want
to Spinsy Wheel? I would like to Spinsy Weed. Honestly,
I'm feeling so emo that I was like, Okay, I
love you guys, let's see you next week. You guys,
I'm so emo. I just sat on my phone last
night and watch my Chemical Romance music videos. So this

(57:22):
episode right, Oh my god, I love it. Most likely
to host their own TV talk show, Uh, Erica Marsh.
Well maybe actually, maybe it's not Erica Marsh. Maybe it's
Catherine Bayless in a different character. Didn't Danille or dan
have a talk show after I left? Yeh yeah, that

(57:46):
was like a Tony Robbins. That's so dark. I can't wait.
But we thought Katherine Bayless would totally host her own
TV show and she'd be great at it. Yeah, as
a party, I want to see that right now. Mhm.
Just like Southern Stuff with Catherine would be my favorite show.

(58:09):
She just do fun stuff like all these flowers? Yeah? Yeah,
why why doesn't she have a podcast? At least? Yeah?
I find it would be like designing women, but real,
I would love that. I don't know, guys, I I
love a talk show, like I just think they're the
most fun getting to him. I mean, that's why I

(58:31):
started my podcast, Like I was like, I just want
to talk to people every day. What a cool thing,
and like now we get to do it. I don't know,
that might be like a later, later in life thing
that I just want to do. I can see that.
What character though, what character would do this? I mean
I know Paul well Dan did it, so it feels

(58:54):
like the obvious answer. But yeah, I could totally. I
guess maybe now that you've said it, like I could
see Erica Marsh being the like local news you know
in the morning should just be so cute. Also like
Erica and Mouth being together. Yes, Erica Marsh and Mouth

(59:15):
hosting morning television. I live for this. Yeah, wake Up Tree, Hail,
wake Up Morning Dying. I love it. Um, what do
we have next week? Yeah? Next episode? Season four, episode eleven,
Everything in its Right place? Wow, finally not a title
that we earned a final finding our happy again happy place.

(59:42):
Everyone's out of their coma. We did everybody lives. You
gotta lie, you gotta lie. Okay, all right? Bro Loo
for you, I Love for you, Love you by Hey.
Thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review.

(01:00:04):
You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queens O.
T H. Or email us at Drama Queens at I
heart radio dot com. See you next time. We are
all about that high school drama. Girl Drama Girl, all
about them high school queens. We'll take you for a
ride in our comic Girl Cheering for the right drama queens,

(01:00:26):
drawn up girl fashion, but your tough girls. You could
sit with us. Girl Drama Queens, Drama Queens Drama, Queen's Drama, Drama,
Queen's Drama Queens