February 21, 2022 • 55 mins
It’s raining, it’s pouring, and this episode is far from boring.
Peyton kissed a girl and she liked it. But not so fast…Jake is back! Hilarie wonders about what could have been if Jake hadn’t returned when he did.
She bangs! She bangs! Time for a little hair-apy. Thoughts on bangs?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
First of all, you don't know me. Were all about
that high school drama, Girl Drama, Girl, all about them
high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in
our comic Girl Sharing the drama, Queens up girl Fashion,
But you'll tough, girls, you could sit with us. Girl Drama,
Queens Drama, Queen's Drama, Queen's Drama, Drawn MC, Queen's Drama,
(00:22):
Queen's Welcome Back, Friends and Family. Today, we are discussing
season two episode eleven, The Heart Brings You Back. It
originally aired January two thousand five. This episode put me
and all my feels you guys. Hayy is surprised when
her older sister Taylor comes to town, but not as
(00:43):
shocked as Nathan, who recognizes Taylor from his past. Meanwhile,
Brooke and Felix decide to become boyfriend and girlfriend. God,
she's so sad about it. While Jake surprises Peyton when
he shows up in Tree Hill, and Anna confides a
deep secret to Lucas. Guys, I gotta be honest. We
(01:03):
often skipped the recap when we watch episodes together, and
I don't know what it was about. This week we
ran it and I was watching the recap, and literally
I'm sitting there on mute going, oh my god, Jake's back.
That's right. Wait FEELI said he'd protect Brooks heart. But
you can tell Sasan want to say yes. Oh, and
then Lucas is in the door I forgot and and
and Dan is and then there's the reveal of Dan
(01:25):
working with actually wrote down all of the recap For
some reason, I never think about the recap, but I
was like, Okay, here's where we left off. It was
a lot of drama. It almost felt like a cliffhanger episode,
didn't Yeah, what was the bad? Was this the last
episode before the holiday break, because remember we would like
(01:46):
take like a big chunk of time off. I think
it must have been, because yea, so much happened leading
up to this episode, and then this episode's exhausting, like
the list of things that happened to everybody in this
everybody's getting some though. You know it's going to be
an episode about big feelings because it starts with the
(02:07):
sky opening up, like a downpour begins and you're like, oh,
everybody's about to have a bad day. When it rains in,
everyone's gonna cry. It's a meda something about where is it? Oh? Yeah,
because Jake walks out. Okay, well, first of all, where
we left off, we have Keith love Jewels, but she's
with Dan. Peyton calls Rick for drugs but take his
back exclamation point, exclamation point. Lucas wants Brook but he
(02:30):
finds her kissing Felix Halex run, Haley runs off with Chris,
and then we have Depth confesses to Karen. So can
we start with the most exciting part of all of this,
which is Jake is bad? Guys. I love him with
the thunder. It's like the thunder from the storm is
was surrounding him and the lightning and flashes on his
(02:54):
face and he just stands there staring at you. He says,
who the hell are you? He sticks up for Peyton,
gets rid of Rick. Yeah. Uh, and you guys have
that big embrace. I love a high school boy who
will chase off a drug dealer, do you know what
I mean? Like that's a grown ass man and this
high school kids like I kick your ass, you know,
(03:16):
like that's that's like b D, that's strong man. I'm
into it. Yeah, it's it's major. I also love that
as if we needed any more proof that Rick is
a creep again he goes high school girls. It's like,
stop saying that, you sound like a pedophile. I mean,
Tree Hill had some rities. I'm sure there was like
(03:36):
some underground scene like you. I didn't like it out
a Mystery with with Bryan Greenberg and all the episodes,
but this one in particular having him back, it was like,
he's so soulful. You know, we've we've talked before, how
he's like real life Lucas, right. Yeah, he's so soulful
and and thoughtful, and he's perfect to play a grown
(03:59):
up single dad at that age. Um. And the way
that he sweeps you up in his arms, the way
he looks at you and talks to you and takes
care of you. Guys. I'm just like, I'm so into
end game Peyton and Jake. I'm sorry, I can we
have both. The Like the fan base gets really mad
if they seem like if I seem like I'm leaning
(04:19):
in one direction or another, or you know, I know
because they misdirected me. You know, like I was told
the Peyton and Jake were end game, um, and I
don't know if that was misdirect on our creator's part
or if that's what they thought was going to happen
at the time and then they changed their mind later.
I don't know. I was a child, um, but I
think I think Peyton deserves to have her cake and
(04:41):
eat it too, So why can't they both be end game?
You know? I agree? And it was interesting to me, Spicy.
You know, listen that that movie Sliding Doors was great.
I think this is the sliding Doors and trills, But
I did, friends, I did love that movie. I loved
(05:01):
that movie, and I do think it's really interesting because
you know, we've talked about this a little bit, but
we all put things together far down the line and
the experience of making this show together, and after the
show went off the air, realizing that, like we all
got told different things, oh yeah about where he was endgame?
(05:22):
Who was what? Like they told each of us we
were endgame with different people. None of us knew what
was really coming. But I gotta say, of all the
misdirect that the writers gave to us as performers, the
one I'm actually the saddest about is the Peyton and
Jake misdirection. George Clooney, it's all his fault. He took
Jake from US Brian Greenberg was a really good friend
(05:46):
in real life, and so any time I went to
l A, He's the person who would like pick me
up from my shity hotel and make sure that like
we were doing something cool. And so that energy, that
kind of like I'm going to take care of you
energy made performing together really easy because I had a
natural trust with him, um and and we were friends,
(06:07):
which we know is the basis of the best relationships. UM.
So that buddy energy is strong. But Peyton and Jake
get to turn it up to eleven. Yeah, you know
something I really loved. I loved and it becomes a
device throughout the episode. There's with every group of characters,
(06:29):
there are these pacts about keeping each other's secrets. There's
an energy of let's lean into trust and if you
protect me, I'll protect you. There's a lot of vulnerability
in this episode, and one of the things I really
loved is that as the script was written and as
it was directed, they used these misdirects of imagination and
(06:53):
dreams to show how vulnerable people were feeling. And the
the m direct of Peyton falling asleep and thinking she
dreamt that Jake showed up and then he's in her
room just watching over her. I loved it so much.
And then there's the misdirect of Haley on the box,
(07:16):
and then I was like, she doesn't have a tooth brush,
what is she doing? Where's she going? And then you realize, God, yes,
and then you realized she thought about getting on the
bus but didn't. And even the it wasn't it wasn't
a dream, but the misdirect for Lucas of coming to
tell Brooke and open up to tell her about his
feelings and then she's with Felix. But you see how
(07:39):
sad Brooke is about it, Like these mis directs and
these these sort of bubbling moments of potential. I loved
as a device around everybody's secrets. I like how all
the different kind of like romantic entanglements represent different things too.
I mean, obviously, like the Felix Brook thing is a
physical relate Sian ship. It is a you know, there's
(08:02):
even like a financial element to it that is a
power play. Then the the Jake Peyton thing is very
much like we're buddies, Like I tell you my hard
stuff and like you help me, And and then the
Haley um, I'm calling him Tyler Chris Keller's but that
(08:22):
that sexual tension and that weirdness is so like talent
based and artistic connection, which is a very intense connection,
especially when you're young. You know, these are three very
different relationships and they're all going to pan out differently. Um,
but I've had all three of those relationships in my life,
(08:42):
and I think it's same the I think the person
you land on should probably be a mix of all three, right, Yeah,
one can hope. One of the things I love too
is watching the relationships change as people feel more secure,
like or insecure. True, Like you you see um Nathan
(09:05):
and Haley having a rift and being pulled apart by
this energy. You see Peyton and Jake leaning into their
safety and security and into the platonic nature of their relationship,
not that it isn't charged with romantic feeling, just that
they haven't crossed that line yet. And one of the
(09:26):
things I loved in the mirroring of that, like with Hillary,
with you saying to Greenberg, will you just stay here
just to sleep? I like to see like, oh, it's
like broke my heart. But I loved seeing by the
end of the episode when Brooks stands up for herself
with Felix and says, I don't like that you're doing this.
I know you probably don't mean anything by it, but
(09:46):
I don't want to be my mother and and he says, well,
just stay. You know, I don't want to go home.
Everything's hard for me, but I don't want what exists
in my house. And he says stay tonight, and she says, no,
I'm not in the mood. And he says stay anyway,
and he offers her just sleep here with Yeah. That
was such a powerful thing to just be held by someone.
(10:09):
Oh my god, I love I just loved it. Well
that's the line at the end of Waitress, you know,
where she's talking to her baby and she's like, dear baby,
I hope that you meet someone who just holds you
for thirty minutes straight and doesn't try to kiss you
or excuse me that. That was always kind of my
(10:32):
favorite part of relationships when I was younger, is that
very tender space between crossing that boundary, like getting to
know someone enough to trust them that you could sleep
next to them, and then crossing that boundary. And I
would make that last as long as humanly possible. Yes, stretches,
don't todge me, don't touch me. Gosh, I've definitely done that. Like,
(10:54):
just come over and just be here. I don't We
don't need to do anything. It doesn't have to be sexual.
Just the comfort of having you hold me or be
next to me, or feeling like that warm body that
of someone that you love and a heart that you
are connected to. It's so powerful and I think there's
something really beautiful about allowing room for that because physical
(11:18):
intimacy also has the capacity to be a distraction. Oh yeah,
it's really easy to not talk to someone or get
to know them if you're making out of them the
whole time you're in a room. It's Pandora's box because
the second you start that. Yes, how many of us
a state in relationships way longer than we should have
because the physical yeah you know what I mean. Or
(11:44):
think about when you were younger and maybe you maybe
you allowed something to turn into a relationship that outlasted
what it should have because you felt like that's what
being physical with someone meant. Oh yeah, that I have
to be your girlfriend, dude. I just wanted to kiss
for like ten minutes, and now you turn it into
a thing. Just make up. You're ruined it. You're ruined it.
(12:09):
So there's so much like chomping into bed on our show,
so so so so much so there is something that
is very pleasing to me that Peyton, that Hillary Burton,
the twenty you know, two year older. How old are
we when we're doing this. Um was finally getting her way, Like,
(12:33):
you know, I could have relationship with the dude where
it doesn't involve you know, sucking face, bry the round
on each other and he can just be nice. Lucas
actually makes it, says a quote in this episode. It's
a Tennessee Williams quote. I wish I had written it down,
but it was something about lonely how basically the idea
is if every if there are so many lonely people
(12:54):
in the world, it would be um unimaginably selfish to
be lonely alone. Oh yeah, it really got me. Well
what I loved about it again? All these characters there's
something about to me. Really good writing creates these circles
that connect and you don't see them coming. And that
(13:15):
quote at the beginning, right is the rain is starting
and everyone is feeling like raw nerves emotionally does that
full circle moment in the end when he's the only
one who knows Anna's secret. She trusts him to hold
her secret and he looks at her in that beautiful
slow most sequence on the quad God, I wish we
(13:36):
had more of those on our show. And he says,
are you feeling left out? And she nods and he says,
you want to feel left out together? And they link
arms and they walk off, and it's it's it's a
a teenager's way to reference to another teenager that Tennessee
Williams quote, let's be let's be lonely together. My heart
(13:58):
is something that has been actually really um has created
a monumental shift in my life when I really started
understanding that the key when I feel lonely, the key
is not for me to go deeper inside and feel lonelier.
The key is to reach out and not ask, not
that necessarily call people and say, Hey, I feel lonely.
(14:20):
Can we hang out? Which sometimes I just do because
you know what, we all just need about it like that.
That's how we started. At the beginning of the pandemic.
It was like, I know, but I really miss you guys.
I'm scared. Overall, I'm generally too unfortunately too proud to
tell people that I actually need help. But what does
(14:40):
um make a difference for me is just checking in.
Like if I just stopped thinking so much about myself
and my loneliness and my wallowing and my own and
just start checking in with my friends. Hey, how are you?
What's going on with you? I'm so encouraged. I'm either
encouraged by the positive things that are happening in my
friend's life, or I feel comforted knowing that someone else
(15:01):
may be going through something similar to me and we
can do it together. You knows. It's the key. It
truly is the key to getting out of loneliness. It's
shifting the focus that joy. I agree with you, because
I tend to go like into a rabbit hole in
my own head and to claw your way out you
have to reach for someone else. And so especially in
(15:23):
the last two years, I've had so many times where
I'm I'm like, oh, I should call and check on someone.
So I just stopped being self loathing that like myself less,
I reach out and try to help somebody else. Yeah,
I could hate myself later, but right now, I got
to make a phone call. It's the key. But you
(15:43):
know what it makes me think about too, And it's
something I really cherish, not only about our friendships in
our lives and offline, but about the things we're willing
to do when we show up together online or in
pub like or on this podcast. I have learned at
our conventions and through our socials and all these things
(16:07):
that our willingness as women to talk about that kind
of loneliness, self loathing, the human experience of sadness has
also offered I think in the way our show did
to our community. Our fans will say, oh, well, if
you guys are going through this, then I'm not weird.
(16:28):
Nothing is wrong with me if I'm going through it too.
And and I think there's something so beautiful about being
a little vulnerable about your experience because your brain tells
you people are going to go that's a lot and
lean out. But when you're when you're open, everybody goes,
oh you too, and they lean in and what a gift. Yeah, yeah,
(16:53):
we gotta break that barrier. There's so there's just everybody
is looking at somebody else, going, man, they really have
their life together, They've really actually this is a quote
that Anna yes, oh shoot, it's in the next episode. Guys,
I'm gonna say it anyway, and we can talk about
it in the next episode. But she says, she and
Lucas are walking, uh down by the river court not
(17:15):
river court, um, the river the waterfront where yeah, the
river Um. She says, look at all these people. They
figured out what they want and they managed to find it.
And it's such a perfect myth. This this we all
think that. We all look around and we're like, look
at all these people who figured out what they want,
they managed to get it, and it's a lot everyone
(17:38):
is searching for something. As the next episode of our
podcast called a perfect myth, because I like it. Perfect
myth it is because everybody falls into the trap. And
now we've got social media backing us up because everybody
gets to post the highlights of life and it looks
like it's real, the real thing. I mean, even when
we had our New York Times think am out um
(18:01):
and and it was very exciting and it was like, wow,
you know, we had a great morning. But you know
what else, I still had to go shovel in my backyard.
I'm still dealing with some personal drama with you know
so and so and over here, and then I'm dealing
with you know, school drama and some medical drama and
just in my sweats and I'm tired and I need more.
It was like a three cup day, and you know,
(18:22):
it's just and then I'm getting emails like You're the
hottest thing ever. Oh my dad look at you, like
you're so hot right now, blah blah blah. And I'm like, yeah,
let me tell you. Let me just snap a photo
of how hot I am right now? Yeah, not not.
I guess you feel the hype of anything, but you
don't feel the hype. You just feel normal life and
everyone else is looking at you perceiving something that's not real.
(18:46):
Hype is other people's perception and it is not your
reality totally. I mean, I stall to sit in the
school pickup line, y'all. You know, I think I posted Guys,
I fell in donkeys that day, like I was just
like out never always being all sexy, and I'm just
like I should have taken the New York Times and
just like posted it in my windshield at least driving
(19:07):
into school, so I could be like, guys, looks like
cleaned up cool. Let's talk about other characters on the
show in that vein, because I remember when Hailey's sister
Taylor was introduced and was so sexual right out of
(19:29):
the gates with Nathan, and it was inappropriate because she's
older and he's a high school boy and all this stuff,
and I God, I don't even know who said it, Joy,
it might have been you, but I remember kind of
chafing at the whole thing a little bit, and someone
within our like female circle was like, that's not a slut.
(19:50):
That's not a whore or a tramp. That's a that's
a chick with some sad stuff going on, and all
that projection, all that putting on the lotion, all that
like fulirting and whatever. You don't know what's going on
inside of a of a character like Taylor, and I
(20:11):
don't know if we discover it down the road, but um,
it's hard to watch as an adult because now you
see like a little kid. Now you see like a
little earlything that's just a disaster. One of the things
I thought Lindsay McKeon did beautifully with that is she
does give you that visceral feeling you're like, why is
(20:32):
why are you just like putting your body everywhere, and
from your sister's husband, like what are you doing? It's
so overt, and and again and again and again. And
then when she finally tells her secret to Nathan, which
she'll only do, by the way, because she holds a
secret over him, she knows she can Lord's sexual experience
(20:52):
over him. So when she opens up to him at
the beach house about being such a lost soul that
she's had an affair with her college professor, she his
marriage is destroyed, her college career is destroyed, everything is ruined, which,
by the way, it shouldn't be f y. I yeah,
by the way, the professor's fault. But anyway, you you see,
(21:16):
you see what her suffering is. And she really she
let the veneer of being this stunningly beautiful, sexy woman
down for long enough that it got uncomfortable. And then
she cracked another joke about how sexy he was, and
I was like, oh my god, watching this as an adult,
I hurt for her. I heard for this girl, and
(21:40):
I saw what you were talking about him. Smoke and mirrors, man,
it's all smoke and mirrors. Oh and oh that's so true.
What about that shot at the end when she's in
the shower and the steam in the mirror and looking
at is a smoke and mirrors. It's like, that's a
perfect metaphor. I love that shot too, It's such a
beautiful shot. Oh my gosh. The scene that when she
(22:00):
wipes the steam away and she looks at Nathan, you
can see her bad habits going, I want that. That'll
make me feel better, and you can see the trust
and you see how touched he is and scared of
being touched by this experience with her. Nathan is and
he chooses Haley. You literally see him look his past
(22:23):
in the eye and go, no, I used to be that,
and I'm going to move over here. And I love
the choice you made joy of being in a cute
sweater and an apron. You literally dressed yourself as so
opposite to Taylor in that scene. And when Nathan goes over,
even though Haley is unaware of what's going on, you
(22:45):
can see the the gratitude on your face that he's
he's chosen to show up for you in that moment,
and it it killed me the triangle happening there, And
I thought Lindsey played it really, really well. That got
me too. It really did. The choice like Haley looking
like Betty Croker kitchen and Nathan just walking up, how
(23:07):
can I help you? Oh man? It was such a
gree that's in my notes too. It's such a great
arc for Nathan in this episode because why was he
hanging out with her anyway? He was spending all day
with her, going on the beach like well, I mean,
I guess he was kind of doing the same thing
that Hayley is doing with Chris in a way, attention exploring.
He was getting his ego fed. He was being reminded
(23:28):
that like he's a Hawkeye and he was already feeling
a little abandoned by Haley, so he needed some attention.
And that was where he always used to go. It
was just find a girl, find somebody who thinks some
hot and get some attention. Well, let's talk about Lindsay McKean,
because when she came in. Um I mean, first of all,
(23:49):
this has nothing to do with Lindsay, but it is
I guess a bit of a grievance that I have
with um those in charge, and which is that the
woman with the exception of Maria Manunos, who is still
moderately falls into this category on on some level, but
not the same. But we had this every female um
(24:13):
guest star, we had this parade of sexy, slutty bad
Are you saying there was a hooker with a heart
of gold fetish happening on our shock? What is every
single Peyton has slept with everybody? This is the first
time she's not like jumping in a situation with somebody.
Brooke is a hooker with a heart of gold. Emmanuel
(24:34):
with a hooker with you know, like, yeah, that's a
fantasy that our our bosses had. It's just so creepy.
And then we've got this, you know, then Taylor comes
to town and she's kind of like throwing herself around,
and you know, then we've got I mean down the line.
You can just keep counting down the line what they did,
you know with Danielle's character and even Elizabeth rn wise character.
(24:57):
Eventually like it just and and it's just it's exhausting.
It was so this I think because this was like, um,
the third female guest spot that felt that way. Um,
it just I don't know, I just finally hit it,
but I was like, God, I'm annoying. I do want
(25:18):
to talk about Lindsay because I really like Lindsay a
lot as person. I really like her as an actress.
I think she's incredibly underrated. Um I wish we had
her on the show today. I didn't because we don't
know about that. But she's she's back plenty in this show,
so we'll get her back. But Lindsay is a really
(25:39):
thoughtful actress. She's really prepared, and what's so great about
working with her is not only is she super prepared,
but she's also very in the moment, which, um, I
think it's kind of hard to find, especially in the TV,
to have somebody who's really knows all their lines, knows
the block, he knows how, but also has an ideas
and it's capable of changing in a moment depending on
(26:02):
what she's getting from the other actor in the scene.
She doesn't have everything sort of structured and rigid. She
wasn't afraid. She didn't come in, which is hard to
do on a show like our really popular energy that
she had to get involved with to come onto our
show like we are a Tornado, you know, to walk
into this group and and have no I mean as
(26:22):
far as we could see, no insecurities, no sort of
deferential like who's the who in the hierarchy? And how
do I make sure that I don't step in even tones.
She was like, Okay, I hear what you're saying, but
I feel like I should go across the room because
that's why I want to be over there, because I
feel like it creates distance, which is more interesting. And
to have a guest star come on a TV show
and have the confidence to just speak up, have their
(26:44):
ideas and hold their own space as an actor, it's
such a relief to be in a scene with an
actor like that. And it's funny, I'm realizing because maybe
maybe my memory doesn't serve me, but I don't think
I really got to ever act with her. I really
feel like most of it was. But it's as you're
talking about your experience of watching her do that, the
(27:07):
first thought that comes to mind for me is how
freeing that would have felt to be reminded by someone
because we were in a situation where we were so
often told to disavow our power. Oh my god, I
would have loved to have been just like rocking with
her on set and have her be like, no, you're
not gonna do that. What she really did have cool
(27:28):
older sister energy for me during this episode because oh
Greenberg had just come back. I was like so pomped.
And then they knew each other, like I think she
dated one of friends or something, and so we would
go out after work, like while you guys were shooting.
I remember going to fire Belly with her in Greenberg
and they like I just sat there like the high
(27:49):
school kid because they were like talking about parties they'd
gone to and like all these people that they knew
that I didn't know, these aren't And I felt like
such a little goober. And so in real life she
was Taylor, you know, like I was so just like
she's cool, Like she's part of that scene. I guess
I'll go sit in my haunted house and crochet. But also,
(28:14):
by the way, really interested in people, Like she's a
curious person, which I find to be incredibly attractive that
she would love to she wants to just hear about
you and she asks really interesting questions and um, just
a true artist. So I love and I love what
she did with Taylor because again it was written as
this very two dimensional just show up and stick your
(28:35):
tits out and smile and maybe raise an eyebrow here
and there and flous villain that we amazing eyebrows um
and she brought so much more to it. She brought
those levels so that we did understand the damage that
it wasn't just some how Ha's family though, because that's
(28:56):
been our beef with the girls on the show, is
that the boys have full re formed families. And Sophia,
you've said this publicly. You're like, we were what were purses?
Little dogs and and so we've met Haley's parents, but
we also know she comes to this huge family like okay,
how many siblings, how many boys, how many girls? So
(29:17):
to see this glimpse into her family now it makes
sense that her parents were like, oh, you're so responsible,
because we see what the comparison is like, we see
what this other energy is and we get the first glimpse,
thanks to Taylor, of where Haley's responsibility comes from. You know,
(29:39):
when Nathan's so surprised by her and Taylor is a
little offended that Nathan doesn't know anything about her, she says, well,
you know it's because Haley blames me for the pressure
she puts on herself. I was such a screw up,
that she had to be the perfect kid. And it's
the first time that we learn that there's a family
(30:01):
dynamic behind Haley's ethics, that it isn't just this girl
who's always been this way, that that there might be
a pain point underneath, that she might want to not
be such a good girl all the time. And that
felt exciting to me. Yeah, and that really leads us
into Haley and Chris, because that's a huge part of
(30:22):
where that's coming from for her. She's never acted out
because there was no space for her to act out.
Her parents are probably dealing with so much craziness from
Taylor and her whoever else in the family that Haley
was like, Okay, I just as long as I can
walk the straight line, straight and arrow and keep everybody
in place, nobody will be mad at me and I
won't cause grief in anybody's life. Joy, I've seen a
compilation of Haley just like punching people and like slapping people,
(30:46):
and you hit so many people on our show, and yeah,
what the hell you? Europe is a cool woman, Um,
and now we know it's because you've got this gangster
sister who's just like I bet you guys pulled each
other's hair and punched and hit each other like there
was no safe back seat in the James no way.
(31:08):
That surprised me when when Hayley grab Taylor's ear, He's like, oh, yeah,
that's physical. It felt nice to see people not just
standing around talking. Actually, I was glad. I was glad.
The ear grab is so delicious. It's like it is
it's such a familial gesture and and you see it
(31:30):
and you go, yep, I know what that is. I
love looking at this the dynamic of the sisters, and
especially for all the women in this episode, girls trying
to figure out how to be themselves, how to deal
with pressure, how how to kind of navigate bumping into
(31:55):
the boxes they've been put in. You know, everyone's kind
of hitting the edges, and you see Taylor trigger that
for Haley. We learn a little bit about Haley's perfectionism
and the root of it. You see so much of
it with Peyton trying to figure out how to come
back from this loneliness, how to not fall into messes
with Rick, and you see it with Brooke trying to
(32:19):
stay away from the edge that feels like it's too
much like her parental dynamic, and and I love what
Lindsay brings to the episode and what another phenomenal guests
are who I feel like we just you know, we
praise her all the time because we're obsessed with her. Daniella,
what she does is Anna in that scene with the
two of you, Hillary, when she comes in confessing to
(32:43):
Peyton that Lucas ended it and she says, I don't
know what I'm doing, Peyton, and you say, none of
us do, and she says, do you think there's something
wrong with me? Baby? Because it's such it's just such
a human experience that young women and have cool for
(33:09):
my character. For me, this is definitely one of the
most iconic episodes because that kiss gave a lot of
people permission two articulate who they were in their teenage
years or their early adult years, and so I take
that very seriously. Um, there is a part of me,
(33:29):
you know, like Peyton is like, it's cool, it's cool.
There's a part of me that wonders if Jake hadn't
just come to town, if there had been a vacuum
right where Peyton interesting, what would that have been Because
that overlap is just so severe and there's no room
(33:50):
for any exploration with Anna Um. But if Jake wasn't around,
ye would have looked like, I don't know, Yeah, that
makes a lot of sense. I also love the way
that you played it in exactly that thing, saying it's
cool because you were so immediately giving her safety, and
(34:21):
I agree. I think at the end of the day,
you know, we've just been talking about the dynamic that
there were a bunch of people who wanted girls to
be archetypes of male fantasy on our show, so they
weren't really going to let girls have identity with other
women in that way. Because yeah, I mean, I wanted
that kiss to be hot, and it's it's not like
(34:43):
when teenagers kiss for the first time, when grownups kiss
for the first time. It's largely r kiss for a living.
That's what we do, and it's it's awkward. Sometimes sometimes
you catch an ear or you know, like a jar,
you know, but you've got something. Peyton is the perfect
(35:06):
person for her to have, you know, made that move
because Peyton is for sure the least judgmental character on
this whole show. I mean, she is just like welcome,
welcomes people with open arms and their mess, I think
because she's just acutely aware of her own mess. So
she has no judgment for well, unless it's Haley kissing somebody,
and then Peyton's got strong no, But that's different. Judging
(35:29):
someone is different than discernment and being aware of what
is something that's right and wrong and being say that's
right and wrong. Judgment is different than discernment. Yes, that's deep.
It is because a lot of people. That's a game
a lot of people will play with you. Don't judge me,
don't judge me. It's like, if you're being an ass
(35:49):
hat to to borrow Anna's great line, and you know
somebody's gotta be able to call you on it doesn't
mean they're judging you. It means they have discernment, they're
aware that you're being an ass hat, and they're going
to say it out loud because somebody's got to be
willing to say it. Um. Yeah, And so I always
see Paid in that way. She's willing to call a
spade a spade. But I never saw her as judgmental
(36:12):
at all, Like, totally the opposite. So it was a
perfect it was a perfect safe space for Anna, and
I thought you did that really well, thanks, Yeah, I
love it, and I and I loved not only that
that your initial reaction was, Hey, it's cool. It might
not be how I feel, but it's cool. You didn't
(36:33):
want her to feel ashamed or threatened. And the last
thing that you say to her is absolutely not, don't
be afraid to be who you are. But Anna is
so closed off because she's so afraid that she's running.
She ran from her last town, she's running from you,
and well she doesn't there's no safe space for her
(36:54):
to just explore. And that's the thing. It's like, it's
so scary when you're a kid, But I actually think
that it's the way Peyton reacts to her that enables
her to go and be honest with Lucas at the end.
Don't you find that's the case though. It's like, I
know I have harbored big secrets in my life, and
the work to tell one person, like there's this toxic
(37:18):
thing in me, it makes it so much easier to
tell the second person, and then the third person, and
then you have a community, you know, Like it's finding
that right first person is a pretty big first step,
but it's you know, it becomes a dominant, so intense.
Shame is like it's I think it's like the Achilles
(37:40):
heel for so many of us. And it doesn't even
always have to be well founded shame. Sometimes it's just
a shame that we've created in our minds because we
have what society tells us, our family or whatever we
think is right or wrong or whatever. But um, yeah,
it's so important to be able to share. But shame
(38:01):
is really scary. Yeah, And sometimes I feel like it
can be so difficult to confront the thing that you're
ashamed of until someone can touch it or hold up
a mirror to you. And and I think for me
it was very interesting. I didn't quite remember this episode's
(38:22):
dynamic with Brooke and Felix. I remember being so annoying
about I was so annoyed that they made us like
do a MasterCard commercial kind of all I remembered, But
as that's been seen in the restaurant. But what what
hit me and what I'm really thinking about now as
you say that Joy is Felix, because of his parents
(38:45):
economic privilege, is kind of the one person who can
hold up a mirror to Brooke about what she's losing,
and he becomes her unlikely confidant in talking about how
all my parents are doing is fighting. They're fighting violently,
they're breaking things in the house, they're sleeping in separate zones.
This is intense stuff for a child to be going through,
(39:09):
and for whatever reason, she doesn't take it to Haley.
She doesn't take it to pay and she feels ashamed.
But Felix is touching it. It's like he has a
finger in the wound. And I think it's why, for
the first time she is able to identify verbally and
maybe for the first time emotionally, that she has felt
(39:31):
very secure because of money in her family, and now
that she feels like everything is falling apart, she doesn't
want to seek it out because it would make her
a version of herself that she doesn't want to be.
And it's only because he's forcing her to confront her
shame that she can realize that and try to choose
(39:52):
something else. Well, you know what that made me think
of also talk about full circle in this episode, is
this that how shame really just increases loneliness because it
keeps separating you from people because you don't feel seen,
because you won't allow yourself to be seen. Um and
(40:13):
the way that the loneliness um also ties in with
everybody sort of feeling this sense of being alone and
is it because they're holding onto their own secrets they
won't just open up and share. And it's a it's
a really interesting, uh, cautionary tale to me watching Brooke
(40:34):
and Felix, because here's a girl who is harboring some
shame and is feeling lonely and she just opens up
to the wrong person. I mean, this guy. I'm sorry.
Let me read this Felix quote down. You're with me now,
I'm going to take care of you. If I girls
(40:54):
don't do it, or guys whoever, whoever you're with, if
your partner says that line to you, I've just personally,
I've never heard anything good come from that. It's so
um god, it's so creepy. It's so and patronizing. Yeah,
you're with me now, I'm going to take care of
(41:15):
I've got it. Don't you worry it? Do you think
this is what happened? She's just this is who's available
to her, and so she's she's getting caught. You know,
Lucas is trying to get in there, and I think
that's probably trying Brook. Shame is because like the nice
ser Felix is to her, there is a shame in
knowing that maybe you're gaming someone a little bit like
(41:36):
have you dated someone that you don't necessarily want to
be dating, but you're just like this, So but there's
shame in that because you know the other shoes is
going to drop at some point, right, Like it's not sustainable.
I also think Lucas hurt Brook so badly that you
(41:57):
can see it in that scene on the quad where
he comes to talk to her, and then you know,
Felix comes in at the end and there's he doesn't
actually get to tell Broke. Lucas doesn't actually get to
tell Brooke how he feels. You can see how painful
it is for her to be near him. When Lucas
is nice to Brook, it hurts her because it reminds
her of what he did in a way, and Felix
(42:21):
isn't exactly what she wants, but he's never betrayed her.
And I think it's a very human thing to try
to choose something that doesn't feel like it could kill you. Lucas. Yeah, also,
Lucas probably feels to Brooke like it's like, you know,
(42:43):
with shame, it's hard to admit, uh, something that you're
ashamed about to someone who you think maybe is better
than you in a way. And with Felix, he's so
obviously a screw up in so many ways that admitting
the shameful stuff to Felix is safe. It maybe feels
safe for less embarrassing. Nothing I can tell you because
(43:04):
you're a train wreck. Um I can tell you anything.
I don't know, what do you think about that? And
my writer is that, like, I think you're definitely right
because there's no stakes, you know. It's like I canna
because I really don't give a if you think I'm
right or wrong. Right. And with Lucas, it's not that
(43:24):
she thinks he's better than her. That's the wrong phrasing.
It's just that it matters what Lucas matters to her.
I don't know that Brooke really cares what Felix thinks
of her, because she could walk away just as easily
to Lucas, and he stepped on it. Yeah, So now
she has a broken heart in her hands and someone's
being really tender with it, and she's like, this feels nice,
(43:48):
but it's her heart is so broken. It's just they're
not in the same realms of experience, and I think
it is again. I just keep coming back to how
human this episode felt to me. All these people having
these really vulnerable human experiences, and I see her just
having this human experience of my heart's broken and I
(44:10):
have to figure out what to do with it. I
can't snap my fingers and make it feel whole. So
I'm I'm doing my best. I'm trying my best here. Yeah,
what about another who was not who was actively um
letting out her shame to someone who's who really matters
(44:32):
is deaf? Yes, it's hard. That's an adult taking the
exact same scenario, but actually, you know, trying to own
up to her mistake and going to the person that
matters the most and and sharing the news that was rough. Yeah, well,
I mean and and so if you think about the
other side of that, the Karen of it all, she
(44:52):
also was kind of juggling two boys the same way
that Brooke is, And it's it's I just found doubt
that Keith, who was my person with how being my person? Yeah,
definitely slept with like my sort of best friend, Like
you know, they haven't put a label on it, but
they're you know, she endeavor incredibly close now and they
(45:15):
come on, that's that's insult to injury. Dan leaves her
for deb and now, yes, oh my god, I didn't either,
just flew off, which actually makes so much sense for
how intensely Karen reacts to that, given that she never
(45:37):
wanted to be with Keith anyway. Right O, man, oh no,
that hurts. It's that's an old wound compounded by a
new wound. Because when she calls Andy and here's some
chick on the phone, you know, it's God, it's shame,
poor Karen. But honestly, like the shame of being cheated on,
(45:58):
the shame of like being betrayed, it's not even something
you did, but you carry it. And so Karen is
carrying that from when she was what seventeen years old,
So to feel it again, like the first time she
puts herself out there is mortifying. Well, and the interesting
thing is, and Karen is representative of this for so
(46:20):
many women. When men behave badly, women are the ones
who get branded for it. Women are the ones who
get blamed for it, and women are the ones who
get asked about it for all eternity instead of the
men who did it. And it is so toxic. It's
like such a side effect of a toxic patriarchal system.
(46:43):
It's like, talk to him about it. I can talk
about this. I don't want to talk about the loser
I dated in high school or college, like, leave me
out of thish. Karen did ask. Karen did ask. She
she was the one that went to Debb and said,
did you sleep with Keith? If she didn't want to
know it now? But do you really think in any
world she thought it actually happened, or do you think
(47:05):
she was warning her friend, hey, dance telling lies about you.
I don't think she thought in a million years that
would have ever happened. Like if someone came to me
and they're like, hey, Hilary Joyce left with so and so,
the first thing I would do is run to you
and be like, babe, I heard you heard that you
was so and so. Isn't that crazy? And you'd be like, yeah,
(47:26):
that's crazy, super crazy, Like that's a good girlfriend move
that Karen did. True backfired hard. Yeah, I did backfire.
Yeah I wish maybe it would have been Yeah, I
guess I guess that's true. That's the only way to
keep the storyline going is if she asked the way
that she did, sort of meaning that, Yeah, I guess
(47:48):
that's it because then at that point, once you lie,
then I get why Dad was trying to like clean
clean the sleep. But there's a big part of me
that's just like why I don't just move on and
she was going to known and what what. It's not
like she's if she was still if she was dating Keith,
that's a different conversation. But the fact that they're just friends,
(48:08):
there is nothing, nothing ever happened. It's kind of none
of her business. I don't know. Do you think that
assumes that they that Karen and Keith hooked up at
some point? Do you think it's like, hey, Keith's getting married.
You know, we've both been with him crazy, right, you know,
Like I don't know that they've ever really talked about
I don't think so either. I also think, and I
(48:30):
think it's very easy to say as viewers that's not appropriate.
No one has the right to feel that way. But
we're human, and people feel h territorial, they feel loyalty,
they feel we have feelings that aren't rational about our relationships,
and so Karen doesn't really have a right to be
(48:51):
mad about who Keith's sleeping with. But Karen also she
does have a right. Yeah, she's got this whole weird
thing with Keith. And it's like I actually sort of
loved the messy humanity of it because I was like,
her feelings are on display. Yeah, we've got a glimpse
of like Irish Moira in that episode where she screamed
(49:13):
at Chad, were like, show us, give us more and
more and more and more and more, where no one
else was on display. Um Peyton's bangs, which I loved
so much, breakage um and it was healthy and fine.
The only thing that saved my ass is that Scarlett
(49:34):
Johansson had a mullet in this year, Like she intentionally
cut a mullet um, and I was just like, yeah, yeah,
me too, I'm just copy her. Hillary. No, I'm sorry.
But they were like those cute little Sandra d Audrey
Hepburn bangs and I thought they were really flattering on
your face and very sort of wispy and girlish, and
(49:57):
I just loved it. It was so retro. So we're
gonna all cut bangs this year. Have we gotten to
that chapter? Every Joy, you just cut bangs. I've been
long bangs. We're gonna I loved that. We're gonna get there.
Hill you were you were asleep already. The other night
I rapped really late. I was on FaceTime with Joy
and literally being like, wait, don't go that far back. Okay, okay,
okayfully plodded exactly, and then she like twisted them off.
(50:23):
I'm gonna do it. Yes, I have this big I
have a big cowick here, and I've cut bangs not once,
but twice. Your bangs on the show. Oh yeah, I
loved my bangs, but I've also learned the hard way
that they require a lot of maintenance when you have
a colic on one half of your forehead because I
wake up in the morning and this half since like this,
(50:44):
and this half goes like this. Yeah. So what I
got from a very nice hairdresser that I've worked with,
which changed my life. I had hair dresser look at
me and go, why do you keep cutting them? I'll
just get you a set, and he was like, literally,
just a clipping pair of bangs. I can have them
one ever I want, and then they go away. Yeah,
Gray over color you want to. Actually, yes, there's a
(51:09):
there's a company, a couple of specific companies that do
this hill you could definitely get some. I mean, I
love your get ourselves banks. We deserve this. That's that's
how you know. Any woman is like going through maybe
like a transition phase. I've got to cut this hair,
and I've got to cut it right now, right now.
(51:32):
But you know what the other thing is. Okay, here's
one of the great things about cutting bangs, and not
just bangs, but like I found out how to do
some layers and all. Because the thing is, if I
go to a hairdresser and they do this to me,
even if it looked exactly the way it does right now,
I'm gonna I'm gonna nitpick. I'm gonna find something wrong
with it, and then I'm gonna be mad at them.
But if I do it myself, I've got nobody else
(51:54):
to go but me. So I can handle being mad
at me. My god, that's that's the title of this episode.
I can handle being mad at me. We can all
handle our own bang mess. It's other people's mess that
is really confusing. I don't confuse me. I can't deal
(52:16):
with it. Oh, god, you got. I really did love
this episode. I think we I think we've found some
really we dug in there and found some good gold
in there. Our babes will spin that wheel. Let's spin
(52:37):
the most likely do what we got? Oh? Oh, well
this is so obvious to me the answer guys, Oh yeah,
somebody read it. Tell us, okay, who is most likely
to star in their own reality TV show? Antoine one? Come? Yeah? Right? Yeah?
(53:05):
All the Dominoes conventions in Las Vegas and the basketball
every week? Yeah? He does, he does. And you know
what's so funny? Joy, When you said that, You're like,
this is obvious. I was like, I mean, I guess
Taylor James would have been on the Bachelor, right. She
(53:27):
feels she feels like the character or like holds to
marry a millionaire, you know, like, let's take it one
step too. By the way, yeah, those are two answers
you guys with our production company, should we just do
a TV show about Antoine? Just like, yeah, we needed
(53:49):
some some executive can call us right now We've got
the show. Yes, it's well, everybody. Our next episode is
a season two episode number twelve called between Order and Randomness,
Oh something between order and randomness that sounds like my
life every day. UM. We are thank you for joining us,
for this scintillating UM conversation and interesting some interesting topics
(54:14):
we explored. I could go, I could go for hours
longer on this UM if I do say some myself anyway,
We love you guys, Thank you so much, mass love you. Hey,
thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review.
You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queens
(54:34):
O t H or email us at Drama Queens at
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(00:22):
Queen's Welcome Back, Friends and Family. Today, we are discussing
season two episode eleven, The Heart Brings You Back. It
originally aired January two thousand five. This episode put me
and all my feels you guys. Hayy is surprised when
her older sister Taylor comes to town, but not as
(00:43):
shocked as Nathan, who recognizes Taylor from his past. Meanwhile,
Brooke and Felix decide to become boyfriend and girlfriend. God,
she's so sad about it. While Jake surprises Peyton when
he shows up in Tree Hill, and Anna confides a
deep secret to Lucas. Guys, I gotta be honest. We
(01:03):
often skipped the recap when we watch episodes together, and
I don't know what it was about. This week we
ran it and I was watching the recap, and literally
I'm sitting there on mute going, oh my god, Jake's back.
That's right. Wait FEELI said he'd protect Brooks heart. But
you can tell Sasan want to say yes. Oh, and
then Lucas is in the door I forgot and and
and Dan is and then there's the reveal of Dan
(01:25):
working with actually wrote down all of the recap For
some reason, I never think about the recap, but I
was like, Okay, here's where we left off. It was
a lot of drama. It almost felt like a cliffhanger episode,
didn't Yeah, what was the bad? Was this the last
episode before the holiday break, because remember we would like
(01:46):
take like a big chunk of time off. I think
it must have been, because yea, so much happened leading
up to this episode, and then this episode's exhausting, like
the list of things that happened to everybody in this
everybody's getting some though. You know it's going to be
an episode about big feelings because it starts with the
(02:07):
sky opening up, like a downpour begins and you're like, oh,
everybody's about to have a bad day. When it rains in,
everyone's gonna cry. It's a meda something about where is it? Oh? Yeah,
because Jake walks out. Okay, well, first of all, where
we left off, we have Keith love Jewels, but she's
with Dan. Peyton calls Rick for drugs but take his
back exclamation point, exclamation point. Lucas wants Brook but he
(02:30):
finds her kissing Felix Halex run, Haley runs off with Chris,
and then we have Depth confesses to Karen. So can
we start with the most exciting part of all of this,
which is Jake is bad? Guys. I love him with
the thunder. It's like the thunder from the storm is
was surrounding him and the lightning and flashes on his
(02:54):
face and he just stands there staring at you. He says,
who the hell are you? He sticks up for Peyton,
gets rid of Rick. Yeah. Uh, and you guys have
that big embrace. I love a high school boy who
will chase off a drug dealer, do you know what
I mean? Like that's a grown ass man and this
high school kids like I kick your ass, you know,
(03:16):
like that's that's like b D, that's strong man. I'm
into it. Yeah, it's it's major. I also love that
as if we needed any more proof that Rick is
a creep again he goes high school girls. It's like,
stop saying that, you sound like a pedophile. I mean,
Tree Hill had some rities. I'm sure there was like
(03:36):
some underground scene like you. I didn't like it out
a Mystery with with Bryan Greenberg and all the episodes,
but this one in particular having him back, it was like,
he's so soulful. You know, we've we've talked before, how
he's like real life Lucas, right. Yeah, he's so soulful
and and thoughtful, and he's perfect to play a grown
(03:59):
up single dad at that age. Um. And the way
that he sweeps you up in his arms, the way
he looks at you and talks to you and takes
care of you. Guys. I'm just like, I'm so into
end game Peyton and Jake. I'm sorry, I can we
have both. The Like the fan base gets really mad
if they seem like if I seem like I'm leaning
(04:19):
in one direction or another, or you know, I know
because they misdirected me. You know, like I was told
the Peyton and Jake were end game, um, and I
don't know if that was misdirect on our creator's part
or if that's what they thought was going to happen
at the time and then they changed their mind later.
I don't know. I was a child, um, but I
think I think Peyton deserves to have her cake and
(04:41):
eat it too, So why can't they both be end game?
You know? I agree? And it was interesting to me, Spicy.
You know, listen that that movie Sliding Doors was great.
I think this is the sliding Doors and trills, But
I did, friends, I did love that movie. I loved
(05:01):
that movie, and I do think it's really interesting because
you know, we've talked about this a little bit, but
we all put things together far down the line and
the experience of making this show together, and after the
show went off the air, realizing that, like we all
got told different things, oh yeah about where he was endgame?
(05:22):
Who was what? Like they told each of us we
were endgame with different people. None of us knew what
was really coming. But I gotta say, of all the
misdirect that the writers gave to us as performers, the
one I'm actually the saddest about is the Peyton and
Jake misdirection. George Clooney, it's all his fault. He took
Jake from US Brian Greenberg was a really good friend
(05:46):
in real life, and so any time I went to
l A, He's the person who would like pick me
up from my shity hotel and make sure that like
we were doing something cool. And so that energy, that
kind of like I'm going to take care of you
energy made performing together really easy because I had a
natural trust with him, um and and we were friends,
(06:07):
which we know is the basis of the best relationships. UM.
So that buddy energy is strong. But Peyton and Jake
get to turn it up to eleven. Yeah, you know
something I really loved. I loved and it becomes a
device throughout the episode. There's with every group of characters,
(06:29):
there are these pacts about keeping each other's secrets. There's
an energy of let's lean into trust and if you
protect me, I'll protect you. There's a lot of vulnerability
in this episode, and one of the things I really
loved is that as the script was written and as
it was directed, they used these misdirects of imagination and
(06:53):
dreams to show how vulnerable people were feeling. And the
the m direct of Peyton falling asleep and thinking she
dreamt that Jake showed up and then he's in her
room just watching over her. I loved it so much.
And then there's the misdirect of Haley on the box,
(07:16):
and then I was like, she doesn't have a tooth brush,
what is she doing? Where's she going? And then you realize, God, yes,
and then you realized she thought about getting on the
bus but didn't. And even the it wasn't it wasn't
a dream, but the misdirect for Lucas of coming to
tell Brooke and open up to tell her about his
feelings and then she's with Felix. But you see how
(07:39):
sad Brooke is about it, Like these mis directs and
these these sort of bubbling moments of potential. I loved
as a device around everybody's secrets. I like how all
the different kind of like romantic entanglements represent different things too.
I mean, obviously, like the Felix Brook thing is a
physical relate Sian ship. It is a you know, there's
(08:02):
even like a financial element to it that is a
power play. Then the the Jake Peyton thing is very
much like we're buddies, Like I tell you my hard
stuff and like you help me, And and then the
Haley um, I'm calling him Tyler Chris Keller's but that
(08:22):
that sexual tension and that weirdness is so like talent
based and artistic connection, which is a very intense connection,
especially when you're young. You know, these are three very
different relationships and they're all going to pan out differently. Um,
but I've had all three of those relationships in my life,
(08:42):
and I think it's same the I think the person
you land on should probably be a mix of all three, right, Yeah,
one can hope. One of the things I love too
is watching the relationships change as people feel more secure,
like or insecure. True, Like you you see um Nathan
(09:05):
and Haley having a rift and being pulled apart by
this energy. You see Peyton and Jake leaning into their
safety and security and into the platonic nature of their relationship,
not that it isn't charged with romantic feeling, just that
they haven't crossed that line yet. And one of the
(09:26):
things I loved in the mirroring of that, like with Hillary,
with you saying to Greenberg, will you just stay here
just to sleep? I like to see like, oh, it's
like broke my heart. But I loved seeing by the
end of the episode when Brooks stands up for herself
with Felix and says, I don't like that you're doing this.
I know you probably don't mean anything by it, but
(09:46):
I don't want to be my mother and and he says, well,
just stay. You know, I don't want to go home.
Everything's hard for me, but I don't want what exists
in my house. And he says stay tonight, and she says, no,
I'm not in the mood. And he says stay anyway,
and he offers her just sleep here with Yeah. That
was such a powerful thing to just be held by someone.
(10:09):
Oh my god, I love I just loved it. Well
that's the line at the end of Waitress, you know,
where she's talking to her baby and she's like, dear baby,
I hope that you meet someone who just holds you
for thirty minutes straight and doesn't try to kiss you
or excuse me that. That was always kind of my
(10:32):
favorite part of relationships when I was younger, is that
very tender space between crossing that boundary, like getting to
know someone enough to trust them that you could sleep
next to them, and then crossing that boundary. And I
would make that last as long as humanly possible. Yes, stretches,
don't todge me, don't touch me. Gosh, I've definitely done that. Like,
(10:54):
just come over and just be here. I don't We
don't need to do anything. It doesn't have to be sexual.
Just the comfort of having you hold me or be
next to me, or feeling like that warm body that
of someone that you love and a heart that you
are connected to. It's so powerful and I think there's
something really beautiful about allowing room for that because physical
(11:18):
intimacy also has the capacity to be a distraction. Oh yeah,
it's really easy to not talk to someone or get
to know them if you're making out of them the
whole time you're in a room. It's Pandora's box because
the second you start that. Yes, how many of us
a state in relationships way longer than we should have
because the physical yeah you know what I mean. Or
(11:44):
think about when you were younger and maybe you maybe
you allowed something to turn into a relationship that outlasted
what it should have because you felt like that's what
being physical with someone meant. Oh yeah, that I have
to be your girlfriend, dude. I just wanted to kiss
for like ten minutes, and now you turn it into
a thing. Just make up. You're ruined it. You're ruined it.
(12:09):
So there's so much like chomping into bed on our show,
so so so so much so there is something that
is very pleasing to me that Peyton, that Hillary Burton,
the twenty you know, two year older. How old are
we when we're doing this. Um was finally getting her way, Like,
(12:33):
you know, I could have relationship with the dude where
it doesn't involve you know, sucking face, bry the round
on each other and he can just be nice. Lucas
actually makes it, says a quote in this episode. It's
a Tennessee Williams quote. I wish I had written it down,
but it was something about lonely how basically the idea
is if every if there are so many lonely people
(12:54):
in the world, it would be um unimaginably selfish to
be lonely alone. Oh yeah, it really got me. Well
what I loved about it again? All these characters there's
something about to me. Really good writing creates these circles
that connect and you don't see them coming. And that
(13:15):
quote at the beginning, right is the rain is starting
and everyone is feeling like raw nerves emotionally does that
full circle moment in the end when he's the only
one who knows Anna's secret. She trusts him to hold
her secret and he looks at her in that beautiful
slow most sequence on the quad God, I wish we
(13:36):
had more of those on our show. And he says,
are you feeling left out? And she nods and he says,
you want to feel left out together? And they link
arms and they walk off, and it's it's it's a
a teenager's way to reference to another teenager that Tennessee
Williams quote, let's be let's be lonely together. My heart
(13:58):
is something that has been actually really um has created
a monumental shift in my life when I really started
understanding that the key when I feel lonely, the key
is not for me to go deeper inside and feel lonelier.
The key is to reach out and not ask, not
that necessarily call people and say, Hey, I feel lonely.
(14:20):
Can we hang out? Which sometimes I just do because
you know what, we all just need about it like that.
That's how we started. At the beginning of the pandemic.
It was like, I know, but I really miss you guys.
I'm scared. Overall, I'm generally too unfortunately too proud to
tell people that I actually need help. But what does
(14:40):
um make a difference for me is just checking in.
Like if I just stopped thinking so much about myself
and my loneliness and my wallowing and my own and
just start checking in with my friends. Hey, how are you?
What's going on with you? I'm so encouraged. I'm either
encouraged by the positive things that are happening in my
friend's life, or I feel comforted knowing that someone else
(15:01):
may be going through something similar to me and we
can do it together. You knows. It's the key. It
truly is the key to getting out of loneliness. It's
shifting the focus that joy. I agree with you, because
I tend to go like into a rabbit hole in
my own head and to claw your way out you
have to reach for someone else. And so especially in
(15:23):
the last two years, I've had so many times where
I'm I'm like, oh, I should call and check on someone.
So I just stopped being self loathing that like myself less,
I reach out and try to help somebody else. Yeah,
I could hate myself later, but right now, I got
to make a phone call. It's the key. But you
(15:43):
know what it makes me think about too, And it's
something I really cherish, not only about our friendships in
our lives and offline, but about the things we're willing
to do when we show up together online or in
pub like or on this podcast. I have learned at
our conventions and through our socials and all these things
(16:07):
that our willingness as women to talk about that kind
of loneliness, self loathing, the human experience of sadness has
also offered I think in the way our show did
to our community. Our fans will say, oh, well, if
you guys are going through this, then I'm not weird.
(16:28):
Nothing is wrong with me if I'm going through it too.
And and I think there's something so beautiful about being
a little vulnerable about your experience because your brain tells
you people are going to go that's a lot and
lean out. But when you're when you're open, everybody goes,
oh you too, and they lean in and what a gift. Yeah, yeah,
(16:53):
we gotta break that barrier. There's so there's just everybody
is looking at somebody else, going, man, they really have
their life together, They've really actually this is a quote
that Anna yes, oh shoot, it's in the next episode. Guys,
I'm gonna say it anyway, and we can talk about
it in the next episode. But she says, she and
Lucas are walking, uh down by the river court not
(17:15):
river court, um, the river the waterfront where yeah, the
river Um. She says, look at all these people. They
figured out what they want and they managed to find it.
And it's such a perfect myth. This this we all
think that. We all look around and we're like, look
at all these people who figured out what they want,
they managed to get it, and it's a lot everyone
(17:38):
is searching for something. As the next episode of our
podcast called a perfect myth, because I like it. Perfect
myth it is because everybody falls into the trap. And
now we've got social media backing us up because everybody
gets to post the highlights of life and it looks
like it's real, the real thing. I mean, even when
we had our New York Times think am out um
(18:01):
and and it was very exciting and it was like, wow,
you know, we had a great morning. But you know
what else, I still had to go shovel in my backyard.
I'm still dealing with some personal drama with you know
so and so and over here, and then I'm dealing
with you know, school drama and some medical drama and
just in my sweats and I'm tired and I need more.
It was like a three cup day, and you know,
(18:22):
it's just and then I'm getting emails like You're the
hottest thing ever. Oh my dad look at you, like
you're so hot right now, blah blah blah. And I'm like, yeah,
let me tell you. Let me just snap a photo
of how hot I am right now? Yeah, not not.
I guess you feel the hype of anything, but you
don't feel the hype. You just feel normal life and
everyone else is looking at you perceiving something that's not real.
(18:46):
Hype is other people's perception and it is not your
reality totally. I mean, I stall to sit in the
school pickup line, y'all. You know, I think I posted Guys,
I fell in donkeys that day, like I was just
like out never always being all sexy, and I'm just
like I should have taken the New York Times and
just like posted it in my windshield at least driving
(19:07):
into school, so I could be like, guys, looks like
cleaned up cool. Let's talk about other characters on the
show in that vein, because I remember when Hailey's sister
Taylor was introduced and was so sexual right out of
(19:29):
the gates with Nathan, and it was inappropriate because she's
older and he's a high school boy and all this stuff,
and I God, I don't even know who said it, Joy,
it might have been you, but I remember kind of
chafing at the whole thing a little bit, and someone
within our like female circle was like, that's not a slut.
(19:50):
That's not a whore or a tramp. That's a that's
a chick with some sad stuff going on, and all
that projection, all that putting on the lotion, all that
like fulirting and whatever. You don't know what's going on
inside of a of a character like Taylor, and I
(20:11):
don't know if we discover it down the road, but um,
it's hard to watch as an adult because now you
see like a little kid. Now you see like a
little earlything that's just a disaster. One of the things
I thought Lindsay McKeon did beautifully with that is she
does give you that visceral feeling you're like, why is
(20:32):
why are you just like putting your body everywhere, and
from your sister's husband, like what are you doing? It's
so overt, and and again and again and again. And
then when she finally tells her secret to Nathan, which
she'll only do, by the way, because she holds a
secret over him, she knows she can Lord's sexual experience
(20:52):
over him. So when she opens up to him at
the beach house about being such a lost soul that
she's had an affair with her college professor, she his
marriage is destroyed, her college career is destroyed, everything is ruined, which,
by the way, it shouldn't be f y. I yeah,
by the way, the professor's fault. But anyway, you you see,
(21:16):
you see what her suffering is. And she really she
let the veneer of being this stunningly beautiful, sexy woman
down for long enough that it got uncomfortable. And then
she cracked another joke about how sexy he was, and
I was like, oh my god, watching this as an adult,
I hurt for her. I heard for this girl, and
(21:40):
I saw what you were talking about him. Smoke and mirrors, man,
it's all smoke and mirrors. Oh and oh that's so true.
What about that shot at the end when she's in
the shower and the steam in the mirror and looking
at is a smoke and mirrors. It's like, that's a
perfect metaphor. I love that shot too, It's such a
beautiful shot. Oh my gosh. The scene that when she
(22:00):
wipes the steam away and she looks at Nathan, you
can see her bad habits going, I want that. That'll
make me feel better, and you can see the trust
and you see how touched he is and scared of
being touched by this experience with her. Nathan is and
he chooses Haley. You literally see him look his past
(22:23):
in the eye and go, no, I used to be that,
and I'm going to move over here. And I love
the choice you made joy of being in a cute
sweater and an apron. You literally dressed yourself as so
opposite to Taylor in that scene. And when Nathan goes over,
even though Haley is unaware of what's going on, you
(22:45):
can see the the gratitude on your face that he's
he's chosen to show up for you in that moment,
and it it killed me the triangle happening there, And
I thought Lindsey played it really, really well. That got
me too. It really did. The choice like Haley looking
like Betty Croker kitchen and Nathan just walking up, how
(23:07):
can I help you? Oh man? It was such a
gree that's in my notes too. It's such a great
arc for Nathan in this episode because why was he
hanging out with her anyway? He was spending all day
with her, going on the beach like well, I mean,
I guess he was kind of doing the same thing
that Hayley is doing with Chris in a way, attention exploring.
He was getting his ego fed. He was being reminded
(23:28):
that like he's a Hawkeye and he was already feeling
a little abandoned by Haley, so he needed some attention.
And that was where he always used to go. It
was just find a girl, find somebody who thinks some
hot and get some attention. Well, let's talk about Lindsay McKean,
because when she came in. Um I mean, first of all,
(23:49):
this has nothing to do with Lindsay, but it is
I guess a bit of a grievance that I have
with um those in charge, and which is that the
woman with the exception of Maria Manunos, who is still
moderately falls into this category on on some level, but
not the same. But we had this every female um
(24:13):
guest star, we had this parade of sexy, slutty bad
Are you saying there was a hooker with a heart
of gold fetish happening on our shock? What is every
single Peyton has slept with everybody? This is the first
time she's not like jumping in a situation with somebody.
Brooke is a hooker with a heart of gold. Emmanuel
(24:34):
with a hooker with you know, like, yeah, that's a
fantasy that our our bosses had. It's just so creepy.
And then we've got this, you know, then Taylor comes
to town and she's kind of like throwing herself around,
and you know, then we've got I mean down the line.
You can just keep counting down the line what they did,
you know with Danielle's character and even Elizabeth rn wise character.
(24:57):
Eventually like it just and and it's just it's exhausting.
It was so this I think because this was like, um,
the third female guest spot that felt that way. Um,
it just I don't know, I just finally hit it,
but I was like, God, I'm annoying. I do want
(25:18):
to talk about Lindsay because I really like Lindsay a
lot as person. I really like her as an actress.
I think she's incredibly underrated. Um I wish we had
her on the show today. I didn't because we don't
know about that. But she's she's back plenty in this show,
so we'll get her back. But Lindsay is a really
(25:39):
thoughtful actress. She's really prepared, and what's so great about
working with her is not only is she super prepared,
but she's also very in the moment, which, um, I
think it's kind of hard to find, especially in the TV,
to have somebody who's really knows all their lines, knows
the block, he knows how, but also has an ideas
and it's capable of changing in a moment depending on
(26:02):
what she's getting from the other actor in the scene.
She doesn't have everything sort of structured and rigid. She
wasn't afraid. She didn't come in, which is hard to
do on a show like our really popular energy that
she had to get involved with to come onto our
show like we are a Tornado, you know, to walk
into this group and and have no I mean as
(26:22):
far as we could see, no insecurities, no sort of
deferential like who's the who in the hierarchy? And how
do I make sure that I don't step in even tones.
She was like, Okay, I hear what you're saying, but
I feel like I should go across the room because
that's why I want to be over there, because I
feel like it creates distance, which is more interesting. And
to have a guest star come on a TV show
and have the confidence to just speak up, have their
(26:44):
ideas and hold their own space as an actor, it's
such a relief to be in a scene with an
actor like that. And it's funny, I'm realizing because maybe
maybe my memory doesn't serve me, but I don't think
I really got to ever act with her. I really
feel like most of it was. But it's as you're
talking about your experience of watching her do that, the
(27:07):
first thought that comes to mind for me is how
freeing that would have felt to be reminded by someone
because we were in a situation where we were so
often told to disavow our power. Oh my god, I
would have loved to have been just like rocking with
her on set and have her be like, no, you're
not gonna do that. What she really did have cool
(27:28):
older sister energy for me during this episode because oh
Greenberg had just come back. I was like so pomped.
And then they knew each other, like I think she
dated one of friends or something, and so we would
go out after work, like while you guys were shooting.
I remember going to fire Belly with her in Greenberg
and they like I just sat there like the high
(27:49):
school kid because they were like talking about parties they'd
gone to and like all these people that they knew
that I didn't know, these aren't And I felt like
such a little goober. And so in real life she
was Taylor, you know, like I was so just like
she's cool, Like she's part of that scene. I guess
I'll go sit in my haunted house and crochet. But also,
(28:14):
by the way, really interested in people, Like she's a
curious person, which I find to be incredibly attractive that
she would love to she wants to just hear about
you and she asks really interesting questions and um, just
a true artist. So I love and I love what
she did with Taylor because again it was written as
this very two dimensional just show up and stick your
(28:35):
tits out and smile and maybe raise an eyebrow here
and there and flous villain that we amazing eyebrows um
and she brought so much more to it. She brought
those levels so that we did understand the damage that
it wasn't just some how Ha's family though, because that's
(28:56):
been our beef with the girls on the show, is
that the boys have full re formed families. And Sophia,
you've said this publicly. You're like, we were what were purses?
Little dogs and and so we've met Haley's parents, but
we also know she comes to this huge family like okay,
how many siblings, how many boys, how many girls? So
(29:17):
to see this glimpse into her family now it makes
sense that her parents were like, oh, you're so responsible,
because we see what the comparison is like, we see
what this other energy is and we get the first glimpse,
thanks to Taylor, of where Haley's responsibility comes from. You know,
(29:39):
when Nathan's so surprised by her and Taylor is a
little offended that Nathan doesn't know anything about her, she says, well,
you know it's because Haley blames me for the pressure
she puts on herself. I was such a screw up,
that she had to be the perfect kid. And it's
the first time that we learn that there's a family
(30:01):
dynamic behind Haley's ethics, that it isn't just this girl
who's always been this way, that that there might be
a pain point underneath, that she might want to not
be such a good girl all the time. And that
felt exciting to me. Yeah, and that really leads us
into Haley and Chris, because that's a huge part of
(30:22):
where that's coming from for her. She's never acted out
because there was no space for her to act out.
Her parents are probably dealing with so much craziness from
Taylor and her whoever else in the family that Haley
was like, Okay, I just as long as I can
walk the straight line, straight and arrow and keep everybody
in place, nobody will be mad at me and I
won't cause grief in anybody's life. Joy, I've seen a
compilation of Haley just like punching people and like slapping people,
(30:46):
and you hit so many people on our show, and yeah,
what the hell you? Europe is a cool woman, Um,
and now we know it's because you've got this gangster
sister who's just like I bet you guys pulled each
other's hair and punched and hit each other like there
was no safe back seat in the James no way.
(31:08):
That surprised me when when Hayley grab Taylor's ear, He's like, oh, yeah,
that's physical. It felt nice to see people not just
standing around talking. Actually, I was glad. I was glad.
The ear grab is so delicious. It's like it is
it's such a familial gesture and and you see it
(31:30):
and you go, yep, I know what that is. I
love looking at this the dynamic of the sisters, and
especially for all the women in this episode, girls trying
to figure out how to be themselves, how to deal
with pressure, how how to kind of navigate bumping into
(31:55):
the boxes they've been put in. You know, everyone's kind
of hitting the edges, and you see Taylor trigger that
for Haley. We learn a little bit about Haley's perfectionism
and the root of it. You see so much of
it with Peyton trying to figure out how to come
back from this loneliness, how to not fall into messes
with Rick, and you see it with Brooke trying to
(32:19):
stay away from the edge that feels like it's too
much like her parental dynamic, and and I love what
Lindsay brings to the episode and what another phenomenal guests
are who I feel like we just you know, we
praise her all the time because we're obsessed with her. Daniella,
what she does is Anna in that scene with the
two of you, Hillary, when she comes in confessing to
(32:43):
Peyton that Lucas ended it and she says, I don't
know what I'm doing, Peyton, and you say, none of
us do, and she says, do you think there's something
wrong with me? Baby? Because it's such it's just such
a human experience that young women and have cool for
(33:09):
my character. For me, this is definitely one of the
most iconic episodes because that kiss gave a lot of
people permission two articulate who they were in their teenage
years or their early adult years, and so I take
that very seriously. Um, there is a part of me,
(33:29):
you know, like Peyton is like, it's cool, it's cool.
There's a part of me that wonders if Jake hadn't
just come to town, if there had been a vacuum
right where Peyton interesting, what would that have been Because
that overlap is just so severe and there's no room
(33:50):
for any exploration with Anna Um. But if Jake wasn't around,
ye would have looked like, I don't know, Yeah, that
makes a lot of sense. I also love the way
that you played it in exactly that thing, saying it's
cool because you were so immediately giving her safety, and
(34:21):
I agree. I think at the end of the day,
you know, we've just been talking about the dynamic that
there were a bunch of people who wanted girls to
be archetypes of male fantasy on our show, so they
weren't really going to let girls have identity with other
women in that way. Because yeah, I mean, I wanted
that kiss to be hot, and it's it's not like
(34:43):
when teenagers kiss for the first time, when grownups kiss
for the first time. It's largely r kiss for a living.
That's what we do, and it's it's awkward. Sometimes sometimes
you catch an ear or you know, like a jar,
you know, but you've got something. Peyton is the perfect
(35:06):
person for her to have, you know, made that move
because Peyton is for sure the least judgmental character on
this whole show. I mean, she is just like welcome,
welcomes people with open arms and their mess, I think
because she's just acutely aware of her own mess. So
she has no judgment for well, unless it's Haley kissing somebody,
and then Peyton's got strong no, But that's different. Judging
(35:29):
someone is different than discernment and being aware of what
is something that's right and wrong and being say that's
right and wrong. Judgment is different than discernment. Yes, that's deep.
It is because a lot of people. That's a game
a lot of people will play with you. Don't judge me,
don't judge me. It's like, if you're being an ass
(35:49):
hat to to borrow Anna's great line, and you know
somebody's gotta be able to call you on it doesn't
mean they're judging you. It means they have discernment, they're
aware that you're being an ass hat, and they're going
to say it out loud because somebody's got to be
willing to say it. Um. Yeah, And so I always
see Paid in that way. She's willing to call a
spade a spade. But I never saw her as judgmental
(36:12):
at all, Like, totally the opposite. So it was a
perfect it was a perfect safe space for Anna, and
I thought you did that really well, thanks, Yeah, I
love it, and I and I loved not only that
that your initial reaction was, Hey, it's cool. It might
not be how I feel, but it's cool. You didn't
(36:33):
want her to feel ashamed or threatened. And the last
thing that you say to her is absolutely not, don't
be afraid to be who you are. But Anna is
so closed off because she's so afraid that she's running.
She ran from her last town, she's running from you,
and well she doesn't there's no safe space for her
(36:54):
to just explore. And that's the thing. It's like, it's
so scary when you're a kid, But I actually think
that it's the way Peyton reacts to her that enables
her to go and be honest with Lucas at the end.
Don't you find that's the case though. It's like, I
know I have harbored big secrets in my life, and
the work to tell one person, like there's this toxic
(37:18):
thing in me, it makes it so much easier to
tell the second person, and then the third person, and
then you have a community, you know, Like it's finding
that right first person is a pretty big first step,
but it's you know, it becomes a dominant, so intense.
Shame is like it's I think it's like the Achilles
(37:40):
heel for so many of us. And it doesn't even
always have to be well founded shame. Sometimes it's just
a shame that we've created in our minds because we
have what society tells us, our family or whatever we
think is right or wrong or whatever. But um, yeah,
it's so important to be able to share. But shame
(38:01):
is really scary. Yeah, And sometimes I feel like it
can be so difficult to confront the thing that you're
ashamed of until someone can touch it or hold up
a mirror to you. And and I think for me
it was very interesting. I didn't quite remember this episode's
(38:22):
dynamic with Brooke and Felix. I remember being so annoying
about I was so annoyed that they made us like
do a MasterCard commercial kind of all I remembered, But
as that's been seen in the restaurant. But what what
hit me and what I'm really thinking about now as
you say that Joy is Felix, because of his parents
(38:45):
economic privilege, is kind of the one person who can
hold up a mirror to Brooke about what she's losing,
and he becomes her unlikely confidant in talking about how
all my parents are doing is fighting. They're fighting violently,
they're breaking things in the house, they're sleeping in separate zones.
This is intense stuff for a child to be going through,
(39:09):
and for whatever reason, she doesn't take it to Haley.
She doesn't take it to pay and she feels ashamed.
But Felix is touching it. It's like he has a
finger in the wound. And I think it's why, for
the first time she is able to identify verbally and
maybe for the first time emotionally, that she has felt
(39:31):
very secure because of money in her family, and now
that she feels like everything is falling apart, she doesn't
want to seek it out because it would make her
a version of herself that she doesn't want to be.
And it's only because he's forcing her to confront her
shame that she can realize that and try to choose
(39:52):
something else. Well, you know what that made me think
of also talk about full circle in this episode, is
this that how shame really just increases loneliness because it
keeps separating you from people because you don't feel seen,
because you won't allow yourself to be seen. Um and
(40:13):
the way that the loneliness um also ties in with
everybody sort of feeling this sense of being alone and
is it because they're holding onto their own secrets they
won't just open up and share. And it's a it's
a really interesting, uh, cautionary tale to me watching Brooke
(40:34):
and Felix, because here's a girl who is harboring some
shame and is feeling lonely and she just opens up
to the wrong person. I mean, this guy. I'm sorry.
Let me read this Felix quote down. You're with me now,
I'm going to take care of you. If I girls
(40:54):
don't do it, or guys whoever, whoever you're with, if
your partner says that line to you, I've just personally,
I've never heard anything good come from that. It's so
um god, it's so creepy. It's so and patronizing. Yeah,
you're with me now, I'm going to take care of
(41:15):
I've got it. Don't you worry it? Do you think
this is what happened? She's just this is who's available
to her, and so she's she's getting caught. You know,
Lucas is trying to get in there, and I think
that's probably trying Brook. Shame is because like the nice
ser Felix is to her, there is a shame in
knowing that maybe you're gaming someone a little bit like
(41:36):
have you dated someone that you don't necessarily want to
be dating, but you're just like this, So but there's
shame in that because you know the other shoes is
going to drop at some point, right, Like it's not sustainable.
I also think Lucas hurt Brook so badly that you
(41:57):
can see it in that scene on the quad where
he comes to talk to her, and then you know,
Felix comes in at the end and there's he doesn't
actually get to tell Broke. Lucas doesn't actually get to
tell Brooke how he feels. You can see how painful
it is for her to be near him. When Lucas
is nice to Brook, it hurts her because it reminds
her of what he did in a way, and Felix
(42:21):
isn't exactly what she wants, but he's never betrayed her.
And I think it's a very human thing to try
to choose something that doesn't feel like it could kill you. Lucas. Yeah, also,
Lucas probably feels to Brooke like it's like, you know,
(42:43):
with shame, it's hard to admit, uh, something that you're
ashamed about to someone who you think maybe is better
than you in a way. And with Felix, he's so
obviously a screw up in so many ways that admitting
the shameful stuff to Felix is safe. It maybe feels
safe for less embarrassing. Nothing I can tell you because
(43:04):
you're a train wreck. Um I can tell you anything.
I don't know, what do you think about that? And
my writer is that, like, I think you're definitely right
because there's no stakes, you know. It's like I canna
because I really don't give a if you think I'm
right or wrong. Right. And with Lucas, it's not that
(43:24):
she thinks he's better than her. That's the wrong phrasing.
It's just that it matters what Lucas matters to her.
I don't know that Brooke really cares what Felix thinks
of her, because she could walk away just as easily
to Lucas, and he stepped on it. Yeah, So now
she has a broken heart in her hands and someone's
being really tender with it, and she's like, this feels nice,
(43:48):
but it's her heart is so broken. It's just they're
not in the same realms of experience, and I think
it is again. I just keep coming back to how
human this episode felt to me. All these people having
these really vulnerable human experiences, and I see her just
having this human experience of my heart's broken and I
(44:10):
have to figure out what to do with it. I
can't snap my fingers and make it feel whole. So
I'm I'm doing my best. I'm trying my best here. Yeah,
what about another who was not who was actively um
letting out her shame to someone who's who really matters
(44:32):
is deaf? Yes, it's hard. That's an adult taking the
exact same scenario, but actually, you know, trying to own
up to her mistake and going to the person that
matters the most and and sharing the news that was rough. Yeah, well,
I mean and and so if you think about the
other side of that, the Karen of it all, she
(44:52):
also was kind of juggling two boys the same way
that Brooke is, And it's it's I just found doubt
that Keith, who was my person with how being my person? Yeah,
definitely slept with like my sort of best friend, Like
you know, they haven't put a label on it, but
they're you know, she endeavor incredibly close now and they
(45:15):
come on, that's that's insult to injury. Dan leaves her
for deb and now, yes, oh my god, I didn't either,
just flew off, which actually makes so much sense for
how intensely Karen reacts to that, given that she never
(45:37):
wanted to be with Keith anyway. Right O, man, oh no,
that hurts. It's that's an old wound compounded by a
new wound. Because when she calls Andy and here's some
chick on the phone, you know, it's God, it's shame,
poor Karen. But honestly, like the shame of being cheated on,
(45:58):
the shame of like being betrayed, it's not even something
you did, but you carry it. And so Karen is
carrying that from when she was what seventeen years old,
So to feel it again, like the first time she
puts herself out there is mortifying. Well, and the interesting
thing is, and Karen is representative of this for so
(46:20):
many women. When men behave badly, women are the ones
who get branded for it. Women are the ones who
get blamed for it, and women are the ones who
get asked about it for all eternity instead of the
men who did it. And it is so toxic. It's
like such a side effect of a toxic patriarchal system.
(46:43):
It's like, talk to him about it. I can talk
about this. I don't want to talk about the loser
I dated in high school or college, like, leave me
out of thish. Karen did ask. Karen did ask. She
she was the one that went to Debb and said,
did you sleep with Keith? If she didn't want to
know it now? But do you really think in any
world she thought it actually happened, or do you think
(47:05):
she was warning her friend, hey, dance telling lies about you.
I don't think she thought in a million years that
would have ever happened. Like if someone came to me
and they're like, hey, Hilary Joyce left with so and so,
the first thing I would do is run to you
and be like, babe, I heard you heard that you
was so and so. Isn't that crazy? And you'd be like, yeah,
(47:26):
that's crazy, super crazy, Like that's a good girlfriend move
that Karen did. True backfired hard. Yeah, I did backfire.
Yeah I wish maybe it would have been Yeah, I
guess I guess that's true. That's the only way to
keep the storyline going is if she asked the way
that she did, sort of meaning that, Yeah, I guess
(47:48):
that's it because then at that point, once you lie,
then I get why Dad was trying to like clean
clean the sleep. But there's a big part of me
that's just like why I don't just move on and
she was going to known and what what. It's not
like she's if she was still if she was dating Keith,
that's a different conversation. But the fact that they're just friends,
(48:08):
there is nothing, nothing ever happened. It's kind of none
of her business. I don't know. Do you think that
assumes that they that Karen and Keith hooked up at
some point? Do you think it's like, hey, Keith's getting married.
You know, we've both been with him crazy, right, you know,
Like I don't know that they've ever really talked about
I don't think so either. I also think, and I
(48:30):
think it's very easy to say as viewers that's not appropriate.
No one has the right to feel that way. But
we're human, and people feel h territorial, they feel loyalty,
they feel we have feelings that aren't rational about our relationships,
and so Karen doesn't really have a right to be
(48:51):
mad about who Keith's sleeping with. But Karen also she
does have a right. Yeah, she's got this whole weird
thing with Keith. And it's like I actually sort of
loved the messy humanity of it because I was like,
her feelings are on display. Yeah, we've got a glimpse
of like Irish Moira in that episode where she screamed
(49:13):
at Chad, were like, show us, give us more and
more and more and more and more, where no one
else was on display. Um Peyton's bangs, which I loved
so much, breakage um and it was healthy and fine.
The only thing that saved my ass is that Scarlett
(49:34):
Johansson had a mullet in this year, Like she intentionally
cut a mullet um, and I was just like, yeah, yeah,
me too, I'm just copy her. Hillary. No, I'm sorry.
But they were like those cute little Sandra d Audrey
Hepburn bangs and I thought they were really flattering on
your face and very sort of wispy and girlish, and
(49:57):
I just loved it. It was so retro. So we're
gonna all cut bangs this year. Have we gotten to
that chapter? Every Joy, you just cut bangs. I've been
long bangs. We're gonna I loved that. We're gonna get there.
Hill you were you were asleep already. The other night
I rapped really late. I was on FaceTime with Joy
and literally being like, wait, don't go that far back. Okay, okay,
okayfully plodded exactly, and then she like twisted them off.
(50:23):
I'm gonna do it. Yes, I have this big I
have a big cowick here, and I've cut bangs not once,
but twice. Your bangs on the show. Oh yeah, I
loved my bangs, but I've also learned the hard way
that they require a lot of maintenance when you have
a colic on one half of your forehead because I
wake up in the morning and this half since like this,
(50:44):
and this half goes like this. Yeah. So what I
got from a very nice hairdresser that I've worked with,
which changed my life. I had hair dresser look at
me and go, why do you keep cutting them? I'll
just get you a set, and he was like, literally,
just a clipping pair of bangs. I can have them
one ever I want, and then they go away. Yeah,
Gray over color you want to. Actually, yes, there's a
(51:09):
there's a company, a couple of specific companies that do
this hill you could definitely get some. I mean, I
love your get ourselves banks. We deserve this. That's that's
how you know. Any woman is like going through maybe
like a transition phase. I've got to cut this hair,
and I've got to cut it right now, right now.
(51:32):
But you know what the other thing is. Okay, here's
one of the great things about cutting bangs, and not
just bangs, but like I found out how to do
some layers and all. Because the thing is, if I
go to a hairdresser and they do this to me,
even if it looked exactly the way it does right now,
I'm gonna I'm gonna nitpick. I'm gonna find something wrong
with it, and then I'm gonna be mad at them.
But if I do it myself, I've got nobody else
(51:54):
to go but me. So I can handle being mad
at me. My god, that's that's the title of this episode.
I can handle being mad at me. We can all
handle our own bang mess. It's other people's mess that
is really confusing. I don't confuse me. I can't deal
(52:16):
with it. Oh, god, you got. I really did love
this episode. I think we I think we've found some
really we dug in there and found some good gold
in there. Our babes will spin that wheel. Let's spin
(52:37):
the most likely do what we got? Oh? Oh, well
this is so obvious to me the answer guys, Oh yeah,
somebody read it. Tell us, okay, who is most likely
to star in their own reality TV show? Antoine one? Come? Yeah? Right? Yeah?
(53:05):
All the Dominoes conventions in Las Vegas and the basketball
every week? Yeah? He does, he does. And you know
what's so funny? Joy, When you said that, You're like,
this is obvious. I was like, I mean, I guess
Taylor James would have been on the Bachelor, right. She
(53:27):
feels she feels like the character or like holds to
marry a millionaire, you know, like, let's take it one
step too. By the way, yeah, those are two answers
you guys with our production company, should we just do
a TV show about Antoine? Just like, yeah, we needed
(53:49):
some some executive can call us right now We've got
the show. Yes, it's well, everybody. Our next episode is
a season two episode number twelve called between Order and Randomness,
Oh something between order and randomness that sounds like my
life every day. UM. We are thank you for joining us,
for this scintillating UM conversation and interesting some interesting topics
(54:14):
we explored. I could go, I could go for hours
longer on this UM if I do say some myself anyway,
We love you guys, Thank you so much, mass love you. Hey,
thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review.
You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queens
(54:34):
O t H or email us at Drama Queens at
I heart radio dot com. See you next time. We
all about that high school drama. Girl Drama, Girl, all
about them high school Queens. We'll take you for a
ride at our comic girl Cheering father Right Drama, Queens
(54:54):
Up Girl Fashion much your tough girl, You could sit
with us. Girl Drama Queens Drama Queens Drama, queen Is Drama, Drahna,
Queen's Drama, Queen's
Hosts And Creators
Bethany Joy Lenz
Sophia Bush
Robert Buckley
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