August 13, 2025 • 67 mins
Alyson Stoner appeared in over 200 films, TV shows and tours, leaving an indelible mark on pop culture long before they were old enough to drive. But being a child star is not for the faint of heart!
In this candid conversation with Sophia, Alyson opens up about their tumultuous childhood in Hollywood, sharing first-hand knowledge of exploitation and offering constructive insights on how to fix the broken system.
Alyson's memoir, "Semi-Well-Adjusted Despite Literally Everything" is out now.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Progress. Hello Whipsmarties. Oh my goodness, do we have a
brilliant guest on the show today. This is a person
whose story has inspired me for so long, both in
(00:23):
my interactions with them and also in the way they
impact the world and in the way they have been
impacting the world for so many years. Now today we
are joined by Alison Stoner. They are an entertainer, author,
and the founder and CEO of Movement Genius, a mental
health company that is providing therapist led content to improve
(00:47):
well being for all people, and Alison knows how important
that is. During their childhood, they were in over two
hundred films, TV shows and tours, everything from Camp Rock
to Phineas and for to Step Up, Cheaper by the Dozen,
and very iconic music videos. You probably know them from
with Missy Elliott and Eminem As the writer and host
(01:10):
of the award winning Dear Hollywood podcast, Stoner has been
advocating for industry and policy reform that centers the safety
and protection of children in both traditional and digital media.
Allison now holds multiple certifications across the mental health space
and has led programming for the UN, the World Health Organization, LGBTQIA,
(01:32):
centers and leading universities, and now they are releasing their
incredible memoir Semi Well Adjusted Despite literally everything into the world.
It is such a profoundly powerful book, and it really
pulls back the curtain so that we can all have
(01:53):
conversations that we need to have. And somehow Allison has
managed to make this book bold, entertaining, warm, and galvanizing
all at once. It's really a beacon for reform and
a roadmap to healing. And I'm really excited to talk
with Alison about this whole journey today. Let's dive in.
(02:26):
Do you have auburn hair? Now?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Is that new?
Speaker 1 (02:30):
I did it like a year ago? But okay, you know,
what is time? What do we know about anything anymore?
The world is crazy?
Speaker 3 (02:40):
Absolutely. In fact, as we dive into this, can you
share a few words about where you're located mentally and emotionally? Yeah,
so I know kind of where we are in the
context of conversation. If you feel comfortable with you.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Sweet soul. You know, it's interesting. It's like when people
ask how are you lately, I'm like, well, in the
four walls of my home, I'm so happy and embodied
and elated to like finally be in a genuinely good
(03:20):
place in my life and self. And then the world
has never been worse, and it's never been less safe
for people like us in the world, and you know,
we like I don't know, might be entering into World
War three, like literally, so it's like it's kind of
like whiplash all the time, is how I feel? Okay,
(03:43):
how do you feel?
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Thank you for helping me understand where you are, because
very similarly, I am grateful to be experiencing stability and
groundedness in my intimate relationships in a way that is
so healing. And yet of course you walk outside, you
(04:09):
open your phone, you just look at your to do list,
and it is I can relate to the sense of whiplash.
And I actually was just thinking about how I can
feel myself slowly on the cusp of becoming a bit
more desensitized. And that's usually a signal for me that
(04:33):
I'm either trying to accomplish too much and wear too
many hats and play too many roles in all of
the different domains of life, or I'm recognizing a very
natural and normal response to overwhelming amounts of information. But
I've just been reflecting this morning, specifically on how the
(04:56):
more desensitized I or we become, the easier it is
to start dehumanizing each other and ourselves, and how that
is in some ways precisely what is designed to happen
right now, and therefore, like we have to vow to
not burn out, we have to vow to retain empathy.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
I'm really happy to see you.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Yeah, it's nice to see you. It's been a minute.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
I know, it's so crazy. It's like the pandemic sort
of made me feel like one hundred years had gone by,
and also only a minute with everyone I haven't seen
in a while. It's like such a weird, melty sense
of time. But it's been really nice just to like
watch you doing your thing and get to be one
of your cheerleaders in the world.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
It's fun likewise, and I do remember many years ago
when I first came out, you were one of the
few people in the public guy who just were so
kind and responsive and affirming. I don't know if you
were already sort of going through your own self examination
(06:06):
or if that's something that came later upon meeting someone,
but you know, I thought it was beautiful, a full
circle moment. When I saw you come out, and I
was like, oh my gosh, now I get to celebrate
you and this dimension of who you are that maybe
you know others haven't gotten a chance to know yet.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Thank you. We'll be back in just a minute after
a few words from our favorite sponsors. As a person
who's lucky enough to know you in the world, to
know that you've been circling these themes about work and
(06:45):
childhood and self discovery and being able to be your
full self turned into this full excavation, this full book.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
I began outlining a man I didn't know what book.
It would become, an analyzing research specifically across media, culture
and psychology and child development and neurobiology. And that was
just to ensure that as I was writing and reflecting,
my perspective was informed by a variety of fields. It
(07:19):
was never about needing an audience to validate what happened,
as much as hey, I think you all deserve to
know more of the story that you're never told in
all of these other documentaries and memoirs.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
And so I had.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
A literary agent who reached out. They had just added
someone to the team, and the new person resurfaced the
book proposal that I had written years ago and said,
I think there's something here, and it corresponded to my
pure Jeanette releasing her book I'm glad my mom died,
and Jeanette is also we grew up with the same
(07:58):
managers we you know, Disneynigolobody in the whole spiel, and
so when she resurfaced it, I kind of went, Okay,
I'll take the next step to write the sample chapter,
but no commitments. And eventually, you know, we found an editor,
a publisher and the team, and I said, all right,
(08:18):
I guess I'm really doing this. I had to start
going through the legal review of the manuscript and validate
fact check did this really happen? Can someone else corroborate
this experience? And suddenly I had an all new story
of the story I thought I was clear about. And
yet when some of these new details emerged, when I
(08:41):
tell you, it was like putting puzzle pieces, very painful
but puzzle pieces together and finally seeing the whole image
of my life cohesively. Wow, this book not only became
you know, this line standing desire to share these intimate
(09:03):
details and paint you know, the landscape of the industry
in a very fresh and timely way.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
But also it's now this.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Tool that has forever changed the course of my life
because I found out this information that I never knew
that helped everything make more sense. So it's very living
and active. It feels more like a living document. And
so I'm a little nervous. You know that it's permanently
(09:36):
an ink in one form.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
But that is what it is.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
And thankfully that's why I called it semi well adjusted
and not well adjusted, so we can be through.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Oh no, I love it, and I think it's beautiful,
and I know that it's not. It's so obviously not easy,
you know, to go through these things to excavate your history.
But I do wonder. I think when you are a
truth teller and there is a truth you haven't been
(10:09):
able to tell it, it will be like an itch
you can't scratch. Do you feel like something has finally
been able to move through you and out of you
now that it's all on paper, even though it must
be scary, Yes.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
And I am so nervous that I chose to do
this in public memoir form, because, oh, first of all,
trying to be honest with yourself is a chess game,
because you can think you're being honest and yet we're
still wearing masks that could be you know, biases or
(10:45):
fears or defense mechanisms. And so you have to kind
of poke in prod to get underneath your initial story
of how things worked.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
And I had I brought.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
On a writing supervisor to help with this, because she
would see the initial way that I connected dots A
and B and go, hmm, I don't know, I think
there's something missing in between here, what else is there
in this story? And so also the way you hold
your memories that you're revisiting shifts what takeaways you'll derive.
(11:22):
For example, if I'm you know, cradling this memory of
a family event through you know, in my arms are
are fearful, I'm holding it in fear, then the takeaways
are going to be informed by a fearful lens of
the world or you know, fearful quality. And if I
(11:43):
go back and revisit the exact same memory through you know,
holding it in love, holding it in possibility, it's going
to become a different story. And so humans being meaning
making machines, I think that was a part of the challenge,
was realizing now I have to actually make a lot
(12:03):
of decisions about what story I'm going to tell, what
themes I'm going to relay, and I actually have to
choose a perspective. I can't be in my compliant kid
actor mode of just pleasing the director's vision and you know,
trying to make everyone see all sides because I'm the
(12:26):
peacekeeper of the family, etc. So honesty. I committed to honesty.
And something I realized is that obviously the word truth
is like I would love for this to mean something
objective and absolute, but of course it's going to be
shaped by my subjective experience. But for the sake of
(12:47):
the sentence, truth is not always polite. Love is not
always polite, but they can still be delivered with dignity
and compassion. So while I'm sharing things that are very
(13:08):
difficult to say, I at least tried to have that
compassionate compass.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
But I will say there are.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Things in there that I don't you know, I go
through waves of am I going to regret? Am I
going to regret saying all of this? But at the
same time, creatively and from like a you know, an
impact standpoint, these things they needed to come out they
need to be said, and it's for a greater purpose
(13:42):
of reimagining the industry and society so that we take
care of kids better, we understand our own healing journeys better.
But wow, like, why did I sign up for this?
I wish it on no one, and yet I wish
the liberation on the other side for everyone.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
Yeah, yeah, Well, I think it requires an immense amount
of courage to tell the truth, let alone to tell
the truth in public, and then to also hold space
for the fact that many people can be experiencing the
(14:20):
same thing in a different way at the same time.
It's complex, and I think sometimes when you are a
person who leans into a complexity and nuance for the world,
eventually you have to give yourself space to be those
(14:42):
things too. And it feels like that's what you're doing
with this book. I mean, it's so interesting to me,
even the fact that in all the years we've known
each other, so much of what we've talked about are
our young experiences, you know, from you know, post collegiate
age career to your childhood career. And normally when people
(15:04):
come on the podcast, I love to ask them about
their childhoods, you know, if they got to sit down
with their eight year old self, would they see the
person they are today in that child? And I guess
I wonder for you because so much of your life
(15:24):
was your young career, you know, your your young life
was encapsulated documented. Yes, yes, in ways that most people
are not. So I guess I wonder do you do
you even have pre work memory or is your whole
(15:48):
childhood in the swirl of you know, sets and music
and dance class and acting in all of it.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
My body, of course, has memory of many experiences before
performing at three and working professionally at six. And I
know this when I returned to Toledo, Ohio, where I'm
from originally, and my entire nervous system relaxes and I
(16:18):
usually fall asleep.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
You know.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
Now, when I visit my dad in his spare room,
I'll sleep for twelve to fourteen hours after months and
months of insomnia. And I'm so grateful that my body
associates visiting, you know, my dad and family in Ohio
with safety so much that I can foom, come undone,
(16:45):
collapse even and you know, psychologically, yes, there are a
lot of different ways that working in the industry shaped
my development. I mean fundamentally, it altered every facet of
my being, from from education to socialization to being commodified
as a product. And all of this is discussed as
(17:10):
you see how these stories unfold in a book. And
yet to your point, I'm actually really excited to have
this book bring everyone up to speed on the fact
that twenty five plus years later, I am an adult
who has been in you know, years of therapy now
(17:31):
and holds several certifications in the mental health field, and
who is now moving forward in you know, hopefully dynamic
and expansive and expressive ways where I'm not glued to
my past. If and when necessary, it serves a purpose
(17:54):
to you know, open doors to be in rooms where
I can better serve people who are in the same
pace I was in. But I'm also finally experiencing some
freedom from the early stories that drove my sense of identity.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
And I do think if I were to you.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
Know, extrapolate this to what's happening societally, I've been reflecting
a bit on just how difficult and challenging it is
for someone to unpack perhaps beliefs that you know, we
were kind of collectively indoctrinated into or we inherited from family,
or just beliefs we yeah received from media wherever.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
To really unpack those and.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
Shift it requires, you know, I think about a house
and if the house has the structure and it looks
that certain way, and you're going to deconstruct that house,
and it's just going to be this, you know, down
to its foundation, maybe you even have to crack the foundation.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Well, suddenly you don't have any structure.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
To hold you up anymore. Who are you if not
these things? And that kind of uncertainty can be so
so stressful, and you know, it can lead to crisis
and for some of us. So I've been thinking about
the ways that all of us who are trying to
(19:24):
heal right now and trying to move.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Forward also have to have a lot.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
Of patience and compassion and strategy for coping with the
required uncertainty of deconstructing what wants to find you and
leaving room to sit in new classrooms and hopefully not
get stuck in any new classroom just to say.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Cool, I jumped ship.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
Now now I'm going to make this my story. But
to actually learn how to live in that gray area,
to live in that flexible state of thought and being
where we can really examine things with more openness. I
don't know if any of that makes sense, but you know,
(20:13):
I've been reflecting on that because yes, of course people.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Know me as the little girl in the Missy Elliot video, and.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
I'm like, yeah, that was twenty plus years ago, and
now I don't know if y'all are still talking about
what you were doing at nine years old, but I'm
ready to move on as well.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Yeah, we'll be back in just a minute. But here's
a word from our sponsors. Well, and that's something that's
so interesting, you know, because I would imagine, especially when
you chose to start being honest about the underbelly of
(20:49):
environments where children are being put to work, and where
children are being put to work sometimes for eighty hours
a week, I think it must have rattled a lot
of people because they were like, but look how cool
your life is. You're on Nickelodeon, You're on Disney, You're
dancing in these music videos like you're getting everything you've
(21:10):
ever wanted. And to your point about when your identity shifts,
how do you feel like you even began to make
sense of I'm supposed to be so happy and I'm
not How do I talk about this with people? How
do I share this with people? How do you think
(21:31):
you began to even share that with yourself?
Speaker 3 (21:36):
Well, I wasn't even asking any of those questions or
feeling the resistance or dissonance because I was indoctrinated into
that sense of identity. So yeah, so I didn't actually
have an alternative for really until eighteen when my health
(21:56):
collapsed and it forced me to slow down long enough
to say, wait a second, if I'm doing something that's
going to lead to, you know, early death, I was
experiencing what's considered a fatal illness, being treated for a
number of eating disorders, then like, I need to I
(22:18):
need to reevaluate, even if no one else around me
is telling me to do so, even if people are
actually kind of encouraging me and reinforcing me to follow
these patterns that are and behaviors that are actually harmful
for my health.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
But I do want to take a step back.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
You mentioned something about the perception of child stars, and
I do think it's really important to clarify a few things. First,
child stardom is such a bizarre and unique cultural phenomenon,
and it does say a lot about our society and
our values and you know, all these myths that shape
(22:53):
us that we can analyze. But for now, typically when
we think about child stars, they're are represented quite poorly
in the media, usually as you know, rich, entitled, young
performers who are behaving recklessly, who are experiencing mental breakdowns,
seemingly quote unquote out of nowhere, when in reality, there
(23:18):
is this entire ecosystem in the industry that often is
exploiting the child and hiding that harm and then portraying
this lifestyle of you know, fame and so what you're
seeing as the general.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Public is this facade.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
Meanwhile, the child is potentially facing quite detrimental, maybe even
abusive treatment and experiences. So then when you see these
young stars start to show signs of mental illness or
quote unquote misbehavior, we as a society, as we do
with you know, most things, tend to view it as
(24:01):
an individual, isolated problem, what's wrong with them? But as
we're seeing, if these exact same stories are happening repeatedly
and for more than a century, then it's time we
need to look beyond the surface. So that's where you know,
I call this examination the toddler to train wreck pipeline
(24:25):
of young performers, Why are they, you know, in these
documentaries and memoirs talking about the same pattern of drug
addiction and psychiatric hospitalization and pescimated fortunes and sexual trauma
and incarceration and even in some cases for my peers
and maybe some folks, you know, suicide And why do
(24:48):
these elements define the lives and deaths of child performers?
Speaker 2 (24:52):
And so.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
I didn't have to unpack any of this until my
body shut down, because effectively, the stories that drove it
being okay for a young kid to be this quote
unquote exceptional talent who can work eighty hours a week
because they're so mature for their age and look they're smiling,
(25:19):
so they must be okay.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
All of this was upheld.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
Until my body literally screamed at me and said, no,
this is not how it is. And I was terrified
of any alternative possibility at that point because who was
I outside of the industry. That's literally all I knew.
(25:51):
I didn't even have life skills, like I was underdeveloped
in so many you know, quote unquote typical ways for
children and teens. And I didn't even go to regular school.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
You know, I really was. I felt stuck and scared.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
It's a very surreal world, I think to let people
in on. And you know, when you talk about the
toddler to train wreck pipeline, I loved the essay you
wrote about it, when you talked about it as like
an industrial complex, because it is. It puts people in
(26:29):
and it turns them through something, and it's part of
the reason they so many come out on the other side,
as you said, affected by all of the same quote
unquote afflictions. I think about it even for us as
adults in this industry. You know, I will give people
really honest answers about certain things that can happen at work,
and sometimes I met with this feedback like can't you
(26:52):
just be a little cheerier, And I'm like, no, I want.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
To be honest.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
This is you know, it's not what you think it
is from the outside side. And in the up ed
that you penned about it, you talked about understanding now
from the perspective of an adult, what a crazy thing
it is to be going through even the audition process
(27:17):
as a kid, and you compared these two stories you
were meant to tell in the same day. One of
them was that, you know, this child was kidnapped and
assaulted and the scene required screaming, and not just from you,
but you had to listen to it with all these
other kids going into this audition. And then you were
(27:37):
supposed to get in the car and like go audition
to be a princess for a toy commercial. And it
was so happy and gorgeous, and you were six years old,
and it's like, nobody talks to us about how to
deal with that stuff as adults in the industry. I
know for a fact, nobody was talking to about it
about how to deal with it at six, right, But
(28:00):
with the training that you've chosen to go through, the
way that you have let yourself pursue your curiosity and
identity outside of being a performer, you know, being a
good girl who shows up and does her work, but
actually following your own personal curiosity to where it leads
(28:22):
to you, and it has led you into this mental
health space. When you look back at something like that,
when you think about the story you penned prior to
the book, you know, how do you kind of make
sense of it for you? And then as an advocate,
how do you see there being another option for others
(28:46):
who do want to tell stories, but who aren't really
given any kind of roadmap about how to take care
of their mental health while being required to embody stuff
like this.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
Well, this is my favorite part, because now we're talking
about solutions, we're talking about possibilities, we're talking about things
that can work for entertainers but also people working across
any industry who, you know, our minds and bodies can
only tolerate a certain amount of stress and stimulation before
(29:19):
we leave what some refer to as our window of tolerance,
you know, and within our window we can experience ease,
a sense of safety, access to critical thinking, creative problem solving,
we feel like our quote unquote authentic self. And then,
of course, as stressors occur, we might dip high or
(29:41):
you know, above or below our window of tolerance. And
the hope is, of course that after these temporary stressful
experiences will close, that loop will return to our range
where things are all right. But for a lot of us,
these are that that doesn't sound like a realistic expectation
(30:03):
when you're overloaded with micro and macro stressors every single day.
And so when I think about that, for young people,
and I know, getting into the industry. As you mentioned,
there was no manual, no onboarding, preventative strategies, no preparation
for what you're getting into, no tools and techniques to
(30:24):
get into character and out of character when the six
year old's brain still neurobiologically cannot differentiate between fantasy and reality. Like, yeah,
this is a recipe for all of us to.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Be on the struggle bus.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
The good news is, or the opportunity that we have
is this kind of mind body education and learning which
tools you need in which moments of the day to
help cope and move through stress. These are available and
they don't have to be behind a super expensive paywall.
(31:05):
That's why you know, when I founded my mental health company,
Movement Genius, we specifically thought what is the most accessible, affordable,
casual way for people to get access to stress relief
techniques mental emotional health tools. You know, think about it
kind of like headspace and calm, but for a much
(31:27):
broader variety of strategies and tools to improve your well being.
So it's not just meditation, it's also like bilateral tapping
and progressive muscle relaxation, and they're guided led by therapists,
So you don't have to be the expert until you
start to realize, oh, I am building an awareness of
(31:49):
how my system operates and what to do to manage
the day. So looking back, I was always this kid
who was deeply researching and trying to understand that was
maybe in some ways my coping strategy. I needed to
know exactly why this was happening and because it because things,
(32:12):
you know, did not make sense until I knew everything
about it from every angle. And so now flash forward,
we designed actually, this is it's my most excited it's
the most exciting aspect of the conversation to me because
my intention is to contribute to solutions at every level
(32:38):
of the issue. So individually, we designed Artist Well Being Essentials,
which is to my knowledge, the first of its kind
toolkit where young performers and their families cannot only receive
some psycho education like foundational learning on the mind body connection,
but they also get access to these artists specific performance
(33:01):
related activities and tools that, as I mentioned, help them
get into a nod of character or manage stage fright,
manage rejection, you know, body image resources. And so that's
like a first line of prevention that doesn't exist and
should have existed many years ago. Yes, and then the
(33:23):
next step is okay, well, now we have to start
helping the adults working with miners understand what it means
to have a minor on set. And we're not just
talking like hey, watch your language, things like did you
know that some of these young children don't realize that
when you, as the audio engineer, are placing a mic
(33:43):
pack directly on their body, they've never learned anything about
bodily autonomy or consent. And if we don't help them
understand that it's okay to say, hey, I'd rather my
guardian be here when you do it, which they should
be anyway, or like hey, I can actually place this
here myself, like please don't touch me. That that's okay
(34:07):
and healthy and normal, and that you can collaborate together
in new ways instead of just saying this little kid
is sort of a prop or an ornament, and we
can do whatever we need to do with them, around them,
to them to get what we need done, including directors
like you know, coercing a child into a really dark
state of mind just to make sure they get you know,
(34:30):
the most epic emotional reaction on camera, so we can
brief adults and provide some simple best practices training preparation.
Then not just thinking about the kids, but the industry ecosystem.
I'm excited that I'm becoming a mental health coordinator for
(34:52):
productions and sets, so similar to intimacy coordination, which is
kind of like a new becoming more standardized thankfully. You know,
if someone has seen that involves intimacy, that can be
you know, sexual, it could be some kind of nudity.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
It could also be you know.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
Depictions of violence or like it's not always you know,
flowery and beautiful. With mental health coordination, we can analyze
the script and consult on like how you're depicting mental
illness to make sure that all of our loved ones
who live with schizophrenia or with other mental illness aren't
(35:31):
seeing harmful stereotypes that are inaccurate portrayed broadly to society.
But we can also be on set to help support.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Cast and crew.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
We can also help support editors who are watching sixteen
hours of footage back to back in dark rooms and
having to pick, you know, if it's a horror film
between this gruesome shot and this gruesome shot that takes
a toll and then zooming out even further federal policy.
I'm super excited. I'm now well, you know, I feel
like I'm following your footsteps in a way and seeing this,
(36:05):
you know, this aspect of civic engagement and legislative reform
and advocacy and how that's in necessary part. So we're
you know, working on passing some bills to better protect
children across media spaces, traditional and digital. And then the
largest aspect of this is our social conversations about this.
(36:29):
I think we are ready to graduate beyond these just
like sensationalized memoirs of oh my gosh, what happened to them?
And to actually start reckoning with the systems the way
we're doing with everything else, Like we want to know,
we want to talk about this.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
And in the book, why you.
Speaker 3 (36:50):
Know I called it semi well adjusted partially is because
what does it even mean to be well adjusted if
the society is dysfunctional? Right? Like?
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Do you want? Do we want? Is this?
Speaker 3 (37:01):
What are we trying to acclimate to? We know we
need some transformation in every space. So there are solutions
and it is happening, and there is hope, I promise.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
And now a word from our sponsors who make this
show possible. It's thrilling to know that it's happening, and
it's really exciting to witness you take your experiences and
(37:38):
turn them into change for other people. But I really
think part of what's powerful about the stories you are
telling right now and the advocacy for kids is that
in the way that our society really doesn't like women
and wants to tell adult women in this industry that
(38:00):
it's not that bad they have some relative privilege, nobody
can say that to a kid. It's so much harder
to tell a lie about a child in this world
than it is to perpetuate lies about women. And so
I as an observer, feel really hopeful when you talk
(38:23):
about solutions and you talk about hope. I feel hopeful
that once the charade is exposed as a charade, that
it might be possible to change it for everybody. Start
with the kids and work your way out, you know, I.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
Mean, don't give away my playbook too. Obviously, Yes, if
we can help people understand the most vulnerable person on set,
the child, is experiencing these things, and we can measureasurably
report the outcomes of these experiences now over a century.
(39:05):
Then yes, this this stands the chance of opening minds
to protocols that you know, affect everyone. I think about,
even all I'm learning in the digital space with s parenting,
the concept of posting you know, images and clips of
your loved ones and young ones online and I think
(39:29):
for the most part, adults are are sharing out of
love and out of pride and out of you know,
deep desire to connect with other people in new ways online.
And yet, similarly to the industry where we weren't given
a manual and we didn't know the risks in digital spaces,
(39:50):
we're not educated collectively on what that digital footprint for
your young one can mean for their future for and
worse and privacy issues, data issues, identity, theft, all of
these different ways that it could affect their future educational
pathways and employment. And it was just seemingly a very harmless,
(40:16):
adorable video of them in their room playing with a toy,
you know. And so I speak about this because this
isn't at all a blame game. It's more like, y'all,
you we deserve, we all need to up skill up
(40:36):
in this area because I believe actually that the more
we know, the more it'll become so obvious that you'll
naturally start making some shifts because.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
We simply didn't know better.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Yeah before, Well, when you think about it with any
major societal shift, I mean, think about the invention of
the seat belt. The idea that people ever drove around
in cars at high speeds with no seat belts is
insane to us. But when this was becoming, you know,
a federally mandated rule, there were states where people were saying,
(41:15):
you have no right to tell me what to do
with my body and my car. And you know, now
we think that of just how crazy it is that
you would put yourself at risk for no reason. And
so I think to your point, it's really important to
understand that this feels like our life, but it's also
(41:35):
so relatively new. You know, when the first Silent film
came out, I think it was like nineteen ten or
nineteen twelve or something. There's a story about how there
was a shot. The camera was, you know, on the
train track, and the train's barreling toward the camera, and
people got up and ran out of the theater because
they thought they were going to get hit by a train.
(41:57):
People did not know that the image they were looking
at was not in their physical space. No one had
experience with the moving pictures yet. Wow. And so when
you think about the fact that, like some of our
grandparents were born around that time, and now we're dealing with,
(42:19):
you know, a physical and a digital world. And as
you said, identity theft and deep fakes and all these
insane things that can be created by technology. It's so new,
we don't really know what we're doing yet.
Speaker 3 (42:35):
Yes, And in the spirit I gotta put a lot
of things in air quotes these days, the spirit of innovation.
We often are not pausing long enough to take inventory
of the impact of making these decisions. And obviously we
see that in how extractive we are toward the planet
and to people. And you know, yes, but you mentioned
(42:57):
something about deep fakes. I don't know if you've spoken
a lot about the already, but something I just recently
learned was that when it comes to intimate deep fakes,
there isn't a blanket federal law preventing intimate deep fakes
and AI deep fakes from being created.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
And now a word from our sponsors. You know, when
you talk about them, and you talk about the lack
of federal law. So my best friend Nia and I
actually served as two executive producers on a documentary called
(43:38):
Another Body, and it really does an incredible job. The
filmmakers did a beautiful job walking you through the experience
of this kind of abuse of a young woman. And
one of the things that startled me so much as
we've been, you know, campaigning around the US and the
(44:00):
filmmaking team also a eu to stop some of this
is the flippancy with which it's treated when ninety eight
point eight percent of all victims of deep fake abuse
are women and girls. Yes, And when you analyze societies
that are sick around the world, one of the first
(44:22):
signs of a backsliding democracy or the dissolution of a
healthy society is the increased legislating against the rights of women,
the increased abuse of women that increases in violence against women.
And this is violence against women and yes, also against
some men and boys, which is terrible. Undoubtedly one is
(44:46):
not I'm saying worse than the other. But women suffer first.
Is it is a sign of sickness. And one of
the things that really took my breath away was learning
in the year that they were making the film in
twenty twenty three that there were about just under four
hundred and fifty thousand of these images they could trace
(45:09):
on the Internet, and by twenty twenty four there were
four point two billion. YEA, So it is a sickness
and it is at risk of being a runaway train,
and it is another one of these things when we
think about industries that don't take human safety and wellness seriously.
(45:31):
We have a lot of work to do in these
tech spaces there, and I do think it's deeply connected
to the kind of work you're talking about doing in
the entertainment industry, whether it's influencing or television or films,
social media.
Speaker 3 (45:47):
And I.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
Really think about how I know it can feel overwhelming,
and I can imagine some of the folks at home
being like, holy, like this is scary. I feel like
I am going to tout, I'm going to desensitize a bit.
And something that really brings it back to right here,
front and center me and you for me, is a
(46:10):
moment in your own history that you mentioned earlier, because
when you turned eighteen, when you actually had your own
legal agency, you were also suffering from, as you said,
an assortment of eating disorders, and I know you had
checked yourself into a hospital. You've spoken about this really beautiful.
(46:31):
You talk about it in your story, and that your
team still wanted you to be auditioning when you were
clearly so sick, but people were profiting off of you sick,
so they didn't necessarily want to prioritize your wellness. It's
a painful story for you. It's a painful story as
(46:54):
a person who cares about you to hear. And I
think about how it's so representative of the way so
many people get treated. You know, you're working for the machine,
so the machine's just going to keep working you. How
did you how did you know you needed help in
(47:14):
that moment? How did you choose to help yourself? Because
I wonder if any of those personal aha moments in
time during that period might really resonate for somebody who's
wondering how to help themselves.
Speaker 3 (47:36):
I will admit that my decision to get help initially
was only so that I could stay on the hamster
wheel and win the race. It hadn't yet clicked that
maybe I didn't need to be on that wheel at all,
or that the wheel was sort of a false game
(47:58):
to be playing a fall race to be running.
Speaker 2 (48:03):
However, I do.
Speaker 3 (48:05):
Think that deep, deep, deep, deep deep within there was
some sense of dissonance between having a certain set of
values when I was not in front of anyone performing,
when I was not on the job clocking in and out,
but I was just alone, that kind of you know,
(48:27):
spiritual center, core, however you would define it, where those
values felt like they could not safely be integrated into
the rest of my life because they would ruffle feathers,
they would burn bridges, they would disrupt the flow of production.
(48:47):
And so I thought, well, I guess we just all
have to play dress up and wear a costume whenever
we go outside, and then at home is where we
just get to be this more whole sense of and
something maybe subconsciously clicked where you know, perhaps I saw
(49:07):
someone else who seemed to be living out their their
fullness in.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
Public, but I've recognized that.
Speaker 3 (49:17):
I actually have to learn how to be in this
kind of integrity in every room I walk into, and
it is going to.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
Have a different.
Speaker 3 (49:30):
Impact on people than I'm accustomed to, because, yeah, if
you're socialized as a person who you feel like you
need to be compliant, then it's gonna feel really uncomfortable
and unusual to start using your voice.
Speaker 2 (49:46):
Even in small ways.
Speaker 3 (49:48):
I'm talking tiny ways, like just saying actually, I do
have a preference where we eat for lunch as a group.
I mean, you know, not just like hey, boss, you
need to do this differently for the company, but like, hey,
he actually I am in back to pack calls. Could
we do this fifteen minutes later? You know that can
feel terrifying for some of us who don't want to
(50:10):
be a burden X Y Z. And so I think
you know, in rehab, in seeking help, I realized there's
a deeper desire here to not only collect all of
these disparate pieces within me and find some semblance of
wholeness just to feel like I can be intact, but
(50:31):
also now my work, my opportunity, my joy, is to
learn how to be this whole integrat itself in every
room and see how that can actually shift in atmosphere.
How you know, if you're led by wholeness, how can
(50:52):
wholeness start informing the way your team collaborates together? How
can wholeness be expressed in policy reform? And so I
do think it's critical if you're on this path to
really decipher what values are spearheading your transformation. If it's
(51:16):
going to be fear, if it's going to be hatred
of the other, if it's going to be just your
own sense of justice but not factoring in everyone else's, yikes,
we're going to create from those ideas. And you know,
I don't know that those are the outcomes I personally
want to see anymore. But if you're led by wholeness
and and you know, we'll say love as a broad
(51:39):
term for now and collective liberation, et cetera, then then
that starts to you know, imbue every conversation you have. Yeah,
and it's a slow for me, it was maybe for
some it's just kind of like wake up and everything's different.
For me, it's been a really slow and steady process.
(52:00):
I think we're now in a position where we really
would love to microwave our transformation. We would love to
feel better instantly. We'd love to see the world change overnight.
And I hope that people listening can realize this is
(52:21):
all going to happen one step at a time. So please,
if you're waiting for that big, perfect overnight switch, that
might stop us from taking that small step in our
healing journey today, and if it feels overwhelming, this is
where we get to just keep breaking it down into
smaller steps until the next step feels doable. And that
(52:45):
next step might only be becoming willing to be willing
to be willing to try something differently.
Speaker 1 (52:53):
Yeah, I love.
Speaker 3 (52:55):
I think hopefully there's something in there that resonates absolutely.
Speaker 1 (52:59):
I mean, I know I can speak for myself. It
certainly does for me. You know. I think about this
moment I had when I had to change everything and
I had been taking these small steps, and I will
never forget looking at someone at work and essentially saying like,
(53:22):
what the is it going to take? And this person
who I'd been going to and going to and going
to and going to, was like, I had no idea
you were this upset, And I thought, whoa I've been.
I have been coming to you with things that are
so hard for me they feel nearly impossible, and you
think I'm having like a slightly off day like hello,
(53:46):
And I think there's some sort of reckoning there was
for me, at least with Oh, I've I've been so
conditioned for my whole career to be a good girl
and to be a good performer, and to put everyone
else's needs first, that when I think I'm putting my
mind needs first, no one even notices WHOA and the
chasm between what felt so hard for me? Could we
(54:11):
go here for lunch? Example? If you will didn't even
register for anybody else. And I think I don't say
that to be dismissive of myself or anyone else's journey.
I actually say it to say you will be doing
the work and healing in ways that other people might
not even notice, and it will be so major for you,
(54:36):
and to begin is what everyone deserves. And so I
love listening to you talk about it because you are
so far into this journey. You have amassed certifications and
mental health, you have written this gorgeous book. You can
speak about it from a perspective that I think can
(54:59):
inspire other people people to begin their journey, and I,
for one, am grateful that you've done it. I am
curious about something, and I realize I've never asked you this.
I've thought a lot about how you're still doing so
much voice work, which is amazing because you have the
(55:20):
most amazing voice. But it struck me during this conversation
I'm like, wait, is that a space where you can
still perform but it doesn't it doesn't have to be
attached to your face or your body, or your age
or your weight or your dancing or whatever. Is that
actually just where you feel the most free as an artist?
(55:41):
Is that why that's a space you still really enjoy
embodying in the traditional entertainment world.
Speaker 2 (55:48):
Do you think that's a great question.
Speaker 3 (55:50):
I'm going to give you a very messy answer.
Speaker 1 (55:53):
Okay, I like messy.
Speaker 2 (55:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (55:56):
The messy answer is it's multi pronged. One, yes, I
actually have had historically and presently really positive experiences in
the booth as a voiceover actor. And two, where we
(56:16):
start to get messy is I'm also pursuing these new
professions in you know, the mental health field, and I
don't have a steady stream of income yet totally, so practically,
I'm still on several animated shows and that is one
revenue source while I figure out what my next steps are.
(56:42):
And three contracts are contracts, so I am legally obligated
to fulfill some of these characters gratefully. Like I mentioned,
I do enjoy the process and I think it I
think the voiceover community in my experience is very different
from folks who work on camera in that I've found
(57:04):
that it's, you know, less egocentric, it's more collaborative energetically
when you're in the booth and it's you're spitballing back
and forth, and yeah, I think it's it also is
on a beautiful note, It's been a space where I
get to express silliness and a lot of the other
(57:28):
parts of my life now, especially running a mental health company,
can feel quite serious, yes, or even solemn, and so
experiencing joy and sort of an antidote to all of
these other things going on has been I think a
source of of you know, healthy, positive, you know occupational. Yeah,
(57:52):
it's like it's a positive vocation.
Speaker 1 (57:55):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (57:55):
Artistically, though, I.
Speaker 3 (57:56):
Just don't know down the road where I stand on
how much I want I want to be on the
performer side, I'm not sure.
Speaker 2 (58:07):
I'm not sure, and.
Speaker 1 (58:08):
I think that's okay. But I also love that you've
found this thing that feels good for you and generative
for you, and it also strikes me as lovely for
you because, as you said, you get to play, You
get to reparent your inner child, and that kid didn't
(58:30):
really get to play at work in the ways everyone
watching the edited episode assumed she did. So, I think
for you, it's just really beautiful to know that in yourself,
in your embodied self, in your adult self, in the
human you are, you know, who is out and proud
(58:52):
and studying and wise and all the things. The kid
you look back on is having a different experience now
with you. And I think that's I don't know, as
a person who roots for you, I really I like
that for you.
Speaker 3 (59:11):
Thank you, yeah, thank you for noticing. And yeah, we
just had Phineas and for release a new season for
Disney Channel and Disney Plus and that group of people
in particular. Yeah, like I've known them for actually twenty
years of my life.
Speaker 1 (59:29):
That's so cool.
Speaker 3 (59:30):
So and I joke with them like, you're actually the
most stable, inconsistent relationship I've ever experienced. So it is
a it is a spot of beauty. It's a very
bright spot in my life at the moment.
Speaker 1 (59:44):
I love that. How how do you feel now? I
mean precipice of the book coming out. I know there's
nerves about that, but just in life, how are you doing?
Speaker 3 (01:00:00):
I feel more and more okay with who I'm not,
and more and more an acceptance of the fact that
my path is not going to look the way I
once thought it would, and more and more eager to
plug into local community, non industry related efforts to just
(01:00:25):
look out for people, take care of each other, share meals, simplify.
Speaker 2 (01:00:34):
My lifestyle.
Speaker 3 (01:00:35):
I mean, it was already quite simple, but I just
I feel more and more at peace with, ironically, after
the book is out, being as unrecognizable as possible and
fading into obscurity as quickly as possible if the life
path allows for that. You know, if I need to
(01:00:56):
come forward and say things, I'll say things. But I
just feel more and more at ease with letting the
past go and saying I'm gonna, you know, walk this
walk of advocacy for a period of time. But I'm
also not going to glue myself to this soul mission
(01:01:18):
because I've got more to learn, I've got more to experience.
I'm entering my thirties, so I'm you know, I think
when this is out, I'll be newly thirty two or
close to it. And there's something just about aging that,
you know, shifts, It just shifts your orientation.
Speaker 2 (01:01:39):
I've got nephews.
Speaker 3 (01:01:40):
Now, who are the age I was when I started
working professionally. That's a profound thing to witness and go
oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah that I should have
known that none of that should have ever happened because they.
Speaker 2 (01:01:52):
On the im being on a set.
Speaker 1 (01:01:54):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (01:01:55):
Yeah, hard to fathom.
Speaker 2 (01:01:58):
But yeah, I just I think I think things are generally.
Speaker 3 (01:02:02):
I just I want to feel more and more closely
connected to humanity and to community and to whatever it
takes for us to repair and reimagine a better world
for everyone. And I mean it's it sounds abstract, but
I mean that in very like concrete, daily decision kind
(01:02:24):
of ways. Yeah, just feeling more embodied, more heart led
and finally, finally it's kind of scary for me because
it's new, but getting in touch with anger. Yikes, what
a powerful what a powerful and necessary process. Yeah, that
is really helping. Sorry I'm meandering now, but something I'm noticing.
(01:02:48):
You speak to things that happen in the industry but
happens everywhere.
Speaker 2 (01:02:52):
The wage gap.
Speaker 3 (01:02:54):
Yo. I was given presented an offer with some terms recently,
and I was like, this is actually absurd. I don't
I'm not even we're this is so unfair and like
it's not a livable wage, Like we know I can't
do this, but I'm realizing ten years ago, I wouldn't
(01:03:14):
have even noticed.
Speaker 2 (01:03:15):
I would have been like, oh.
Speaker 3 (01:03:15):
Wow, thank you, y'all take anything, And then you know,
I would go back to my budget and be like, Okay,
how many other jobs am I going to need to
get so that I can make ends meet?
Speaker 2 (01:03:24):
And now I'm like, wait a.
Speaker 3 (01:03:25):
Second, I can feel that something's not right, so I'm
more in touch with like, Okay, we've been at this
for you know, over two decades.
Speaker 2 (01:03:37):
It's time for different terms.
Speaker 1 (01:03:40):
Yeah, and I think there's nothing wrong with that. I
think there's nothing wrong with knowing your worth.
Speaker 2 (01:03:47):
And we're talking fairness. Well, mean, that's it.
Speaker 1 (01:03:50):
Basic fairness is actually should just be ground zero, right?
What would you say that? It's that kind of acknowledge
or perhaps that the pursuit of a new relationship with
certain emotions like anger that feels like you're work in
progress as you go forward, because you've done so much
(01:04:12):
work that I'm looking at you in this moment going
like what do you kind of what do you feel like?
Is left?
Speaker 3 (01:04:19):
Ll So then the first thing I need to do
is let you in on the rest of it, because
if I'm only showing you where the completed version, then
that's probably some work to do.
Speaker 2 (01:04:31):
Actually, you'll see all of that in the book.
Speaker 3 (01:04:33):
If you're talking about want to see a work in progress,
the mess is on full display because you don't hear
from the wise, contemplative self. You hear the psychological self
figuring things out in real time. And I would say, yes,
my current journey is negotiating anger and learning to steward.
Speaker 2 (01:05:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:05:02):
It is around it is around worth, it is around
self trust, it is around anger as being an indicator
that something needs attention.
Speaker 2 (01:05:13):
And I think it's it's also where I'm really presently
moving forward.
Speaker 3 (01:05:20):
Yeah, I'm trying to think, like I'm actually don't know
what comes after this book because it's sort of the
culmination of this, you know, first century of life and
first third of life maybe, and I'm kind of handing
it over to everyone and then saying I actually don't
(01:05:42):
have a plan from here on out. So that's exciting,
it's exciting and nerve wracking. And that's where I'm absolutely
a work in progress. I have no idea what happens
after this.
Speaker 1 (01:05:59):
I loved that for you.
Speaker 3 (01:06:01):
I also don't know if the industry is going to
spite me, so.
Speaker 1 (01:06:07):
There's not think so, I don't think so. I think. Look,
I think we are in a really watershed moment as people,
and I think bravery, particularly empathetic bravery, is what we need.
So I'm excited for you, and I'm excited for everyone
(01:06:27):
who gets to read the book. Congratulations, Yes, thank you,
and if you do read it, please read with care
and take your time because it covers a lot. Yeah,
and I would love to hear people's responses because this
is this, all of this, it's a communal act, like
we've got to do this together.
Speaker 3 (01:06:46):
Can't do these things alone.
Speaker 1 (01:06:48):
Preach it, my friend, preach it. Thank you, thank you
for coming today.
Progress. Hello Whipsmarties. Oh my goodness, do we have a
brilliant guest on the show today. This is a person
whose story has inspired me for so long, both in
(00:23):
my interactions with them and also in the way they
impact the world and in the way they have been
impacting the world for so many years. Now today we
are joined by Alison Stoner. They are an entertainer, author,
and the founder and CEO of Movement Genius, a mental
health company that is providing therapist led content to improve
(00:47):
well being for all people, and Alison knows how important
that is. During their childhood, they were in over two
hundred films, TV shows and tours, everything from Camp Rock
to Phineas and for to Step Up, Cheaper by the Dozen,
and very iconic music videos. You probably know them from
with Missy Elliott and Eminem As the writer and host
(01:10):
of the award winning Dear Hollywood podcast, Stoner has been
advocating for industry and policy reform that centers the safety
and protection of children in both traditional and digital media.
Allison now holds multiple certifications across the mental health space
and has led programming for the UN, the World Health Organization, LGBTQIA,
(01:32):
centers and leading universities, and now they are releasing their
incredible memoir Semi Well Adjusted Despite literally everything into the world.
It is such a profoundly powerful book, and it really
pulls back the curtain so that we can all have
(01:53):
conversations that we need to have. And somehow Allison has
managed to make this book bold, entertaining, warm, and galvanizing
all at once. It's really a beacon for reform and
a roadmap to healing. And I'm really excited to talk
with Alison about this whole journey today. Let's dive in.
(02:26):
Do you have auburn hair? Now?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Is that new?
Speaker 1 (02:30):
I did it like a year ago? But okay, you know,
what is time? What do we know about anything anymore?
The world is crazy?
Speaker 3 (02:40):
Absolutely. In fact, as we dive into this, can you
share a few words about where you're located mentally and emotionally? Yeah,
so I know kind of where we are in the
context of conversation. If you feel comfortable with you.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Sweet soul. You know, it's interesting. It's like when people
ask how are you lately, I'm like, well, in the
four walls of my home, I'm so happy and embodied
and elated to like finally be in a genuinely good
(03:20):
place in my life and self. And then the world
has never been worse, and it's never been less safe
for people like us in the world, and you know,
we like I don't know, might be entering into World
War three, like literally, so it's like it's kind of
like whiplash all the time, is how I feel? Okay,
(03:43):
how do you feel?
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Thank you for helping me understand where you are, because
very similarly, I am grateful to be experiencing stability and
groundedness in my intimate relationships in a way that is
so healing. And yet of course you walk outside, you
(04:09):
open your phone, you just look at your to do list,
and it is I can relate to the sense of whiplash.
And I actually was just thinking about how I can
feel myself slowly on the cusp of becoming a bit
more desensitized. And that's usually a signal for me that
(04:33):
I'm either trying to accomplish too much and wear too
many hats and play too many roles in all of
the different domains of life, or I'm recognizing a very
natural and normal response to overwhelming amounts of information. But
I've just been reflecting this morning, specifically on how the
(04:56):
more desensitized I or we become, the easier it is
to start dehumanizing each other and ourselves, and how that
is in some ways precisely what is designed to happen
right now, and therefore, like we have to vow to
not burn out, we have to vow to retain empathy.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
I'm really happy to see you.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Yeah, it's nice to see you. It's been a minute.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
I know, it's so crazy. It's like the pandemic sort
of made me feel like one hundred years had gone by,
and also only a minute with everyone I haven't seen
in a while. It's like such a weird, melty sense
of time. But it's been really nice just to like
watch you doing your thing and get to be one
of your cheerleaders in the world.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
It's fun likewise, and I do remember many years ago
when I first came out, you were one of the
few people in the public guy who just were so
kind and responsive and affirming. I don't know if you
were already sort of going through your own self examination
(06:06):
or if that's something that came later upon meeting someone,
but you know, I thought it was beautiful, a full
circle moment. When I saw you come out, and I
was like, oh my gosh, now I get to celebrate
you and this dimension of who you are that maybe
you know others haven't gotten a chance to know yet.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Thank you. We'll be back in just a minute after
a few words from our favorite sponsors. As a person
who's lucky enough to know you in the world, to
know that you've been circling these themes about work and
(06:45):
childhood and self discovery and being able to be your
full self turned into this full excavation, this full book.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
I began outlining a man I didn't know what book.
It would become, an analyzing research specifically across media, culture
and psychology and child development and neurobiology. And that was
just to ensure that as I was writing and reflecting,
my perspective was informed by a variety of fields. It
(07:19):
was never about needing an audience to validate what happened,
as much as hey, I think you all deserve to
know more of the story that you're never told in
all of these other documentaries and memoirs.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
And so I had.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
A literary agent who reached out. They had just added
someone to the team, and the new person resurfaced the
book proposal that I had written years ago and said,
I think there's something here, and it corresponded to my
pure Jeanette releasing her book I'm glad my mom died,
and Jeanette is also we grew up with the same
(07:58):
managers we you know, Disneynigolobody in the whole spiel, and
so when she resurfaced it, I kind of went, Okay,
I'll take the next step to write the sample chapter,
but no commitments. And eventually, you know, we found an editor,
a publisher and the team, and I said, all right,
(08:18):
I guess I'm really doing this. I had to start
going through the legal review of the manuscript and validate
fact check did this really happen? Can someone else corroborate
this experience? And suddenly I had an all new story
of the story I thought I was clear about. And
yet when some of these new details emerged, when I
(08:41):
tell you, it was like putting puzzle pieces, very painful
but puzzle pieces together and finally seeing the whole image
of my life cohesively. Wow, this book not only became
you know, this line standing desire to share these intimate
(09:03):
details and paint you know, the landscape of the industry
in a very fresh and timely way.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
But also it's now this.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Tool that has forever changed the course of my life
because I found out this information that I never knew
that helped everything make more sense. So it's very living
and active. It feels more like a living document. And
so I'm a little nervous. You know that it's permanently
(09:36):
an ink in one form.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
But that is what it is.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
And thankfully that's why I called it semi well adjusted
and not well adjusted, so we can be through.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Oh no, I love it, and I think it's beautiful,
and I know that it's not. It's so obviously not easy,
you know, to go through these things to excavate your history.
But I do wonder. I think when you are a
truth teller and there is a truth you haven't been
(10:09):
able to tell it, it will be like an itch
you can't scratch. Do you feel like something has finally
been able to move through you and out of you
now that it's all on paper, even though it must
be scary, Yes.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
And I am so nervous that I chose to do
this in public memoir form, because, oh, first of all,
trying to be honest with yourself is a chess game,
because you can think you're being honest and yet we're
still wearing masks that could be you know, biases or
(10:45):
fears or defense mechanisms. And so you have to kind
of poke in prod to get underneath your initial story
of how things worked.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
And I had I brought.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
On a writing supervisor to help with this, because she
would see the initial way that I connected dots A
and B and go, hmm, I don't know, I think
there's something missing in between here, what else is there
in this story? And so also the way you hold
your memories that you're revisiting shifts what takeaways you'll derive.
(11:22):
For example, if I'm you know, cradling this memory of
a family event through you know, in my arms are
are fearful, I'm holding it in fear, then the takeaways
are going to be informed by a fearful lens of
the world or you know, fearful quality. And if I
(11:43):
go back and revisit the exact same memory through you know,
holding it in love, holding it in possibility, it's going
to become a different story. And so humans being meaning
making machines, I think that was a part of the challenge,
was realizing now I have to actually make a lot
(12:03):
of decisions about what story I'm going to tell, what
themes I'm going to relay, and I actually have to
choose a perspective. I can't be in my compliant kid
actor mode of just pleasing the director's vision and you know,
trying to make everyone see all sides because I'm the
(12:26):
peacekeeper of the family, etc. So honesty. I committed to honesty.
And something I realized is that obviously the word truth
is like I would love for this to mean something
objective and absolute, but of course it's going to be
shaped by my subjective experience. But for the sake of
(12:47):
the sentence, truth is not always polite. Love is not
always polite, but they can still be delivered with dignity
and compassion. So while I'm sharing things that are very
(13:08):
difficult to say, I at least tried to have that
compassionate compass.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
But I will say there are.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Things in there that I don't you know, I go
through waves of am I going to regret? Am I
going to regret saying all of this? But at the
same time, creatively and from like a you know, an
impact standpoint, these things they needed to come out they
need to be said, and it's for a greater purpose
(13:42):
of reimagining the industry and society so that we take
care of kids better, we understand our own healing journeys better.
But wow, like, why did I sign up for this?
I wish it on no one, and yet I wish
the liberation on the other side for everyone.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
Yeah, yeah, Well, I think it requires an immense amount
of courage to tell the truth, let alone to tell
the truth in public, and then to also hold space
for the fact that many people can be experiencing the
(14:20):
same thing in a different way at the same time.
It's complex, and I think sometimes when you are a
person who leans into a complexity and nuance for the world,
eventually you have to give yourself space to be those
(14:42):
things too. And it feels like that's what you're doing
with this book. I mean, it's so interesting to me,
even the fact that in all the years we've known
each other, so much of what we've talked about are
our young experiences, you know, from you know, post collegiate
age career to your childhood career. And normally when people
(15:04):
come on the podcast, I love to ask them about
their childhoods, you know, if they got to sit down
with their eight year old self, would they see the
person they are today in that child? And I guess
I wonder for you because so much of your life
(15:24):
was your young career, you know, your your young life
was encapsulated documented. Yes, yes, in ways that most people
are not. So I guess I wonder do you do
you even have pre work memory or is your whole
(15:48):
childhood in the swirl of you know, sets and music
and dance class and acting in all of it.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
My body, of course, has memory of many experiences before
performing at three and working professionally at six. And I
know this when I returned to Toledo, Ohio, where I'm
from originally, and my entire nervous system relaxes and I
(16:18):
usually fall asleep.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
You know.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
Now, when I visit my dad in his spare room,
I'll sleep for twelve to fourteen hours after months and
months of insomnia. And I'm so grateful that my body
associates visiting, you know, my dad and family in Ohio
with safety so much that I can foom, come undone,
(16:45):
collapse even and you know, psychologically, yes, there are a
lot of different ways that working in the industry shaped
my development. I mean fundamentally, it altered every facet of
my being, from from education to socialization to being commodified
as a product. And all of this is discussed as
(17:10):
you see how these stories unfold in a book. And
yet to your point, I'm actually really excited to have
this book bring everyone up to speed on the fact
that twenty five plus years later, I am an adult
who has been in you know, years of therapy now
(17:31):
and holds several certifications in the mental health field, and
who is now moving forward in you know, hopefully dynamic
and expansive and expressive ways where I'm not glued to
my past. If and when necessary, it serves a purpose
(17:54):
to you know, open doors to be in rooms where
I can better serve people who are in the same
pace I was in. But I'm also finally experiencing some
freedom from the early stories that drove my sense of identity.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
And I do think if I were to you.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
Know, extrapolate this to what's happening societally, I've been reflecting
a bit on just how difficult and challenging it is
for someone to unpack perhaps beliefs that you know, we
were kind of collectively indoctrinated into or we inherited from family,
or just beliefs we yeah received from media wherever.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
To really unpack those and.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
Shift it requires, you know, I think about a house
and if the house has the structure and it looks
that certain way, and you're going to deconstruct that house,
and it's just going to be this, you know, down
to its foundation, maybe you even have to crack the foundation.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Well, suddenly you don't have any structure.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
To hold you up anymore. Who are you if not
these things? And that kind of uncertainty can be so
so stressful, and you know, it can lead to crisis
and for some of us. So I've been thinking about
the ways that all of us who are trying to
(19:24):
heal right now and trying to move.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Forward also have to have a lot.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
Of patience and compassion and strategy for coping with the
required uncertainty of deconstructing what wants to find you and
leaving room to sit in new classrooms and hopefully not
get stuck in any new classroom just to say.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Cool, I jumped ship.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
Now now I'm going to make this my story. But
to actually learn how to live in that gray area,
to live in that flexible state of thought and being
where we can really examine things with more openness. I
don't know if any of that makes sense, but you know,
(20:13):
I've been reflecting on that because yes, of course people.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Know me as the little girl in the Missy Elliot video, and.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
I'm like, yeah, that was twenty plus years ago, and
now I don't know if y'all are still talking about
what you were doing at nine years old, but I'm
ready to move on as well.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Yeah, we'll be back in just a minute. But here's
a word from our sponsors. Well, and that's something that's
so interesting, you know, because I would imagine, especially when
you chose to start being honest about the underbelly of
(20:49):
environments where children are being put to work, and where
children are being put to work sometimes for eighty hours
a week, I think it must have rattled a lot
of people because they were like, but look how cool
your life is. You're on Nickelodeon, You're on Disney, You're
dancing in these music videos like you're getting everything you've
(21:10):
ever wanted. And to your point about when your identity shifts,
how do you feel like you even began to make
sense of I'm supposed to be so happy and I'm
not How do I talk about this with people? How
do I share this with people? How do you think
(21:31):
you began to even share that with yourself?
Speaker 3 (21:36):
Well, I wasn't even asking any of those questions or
feeling the resistance or dissonance because I was indoctrinated into
that sense of identity. So yeah, so I didn't actually
have an alternative for really until eighteen when my health
(21:56):
collapsed and it forced me to slow down long enough
to say, wait a second, if I'm doing something that's
going to lead to, you know, early death, I was
experiencing what's considered a fatal illness, being treated for a
number of eating disorders, then like, I need to I
(22:18):
need to reevaluate, even if no one else around me
is telling me to do so, even if people are
actually kind of encouraging me and reinforcing me to follow
these patterns that are and behaviors that are actually harmful
for my health.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
But I do want to take a step back.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
You mentioned something about the perception of child stars, and
I do think it's really important to clarify a few things. First,
child stardom is such a bizarre and unique cultural phenomenon,
and it does say a lot about our society and
our values and you know, all these myths that shape
(22:53):
us that we can analyze. But for now, typically when
we think about child stars, they're are represented quite poorly
in the media, usually as you know, rich, entitled, young
performers who are behaving recklessly, who are experiencing mental breakdowns,
seemingly quote unquote out of nowhere, when in reality, there
(23:18):
is this entire ecosystem in the industry that often is
exploiting the child and hiding that harm and then portraying
this lifestyle of you know, fame and so what you're
seeing as the general.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Public is this facade.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
Meanwhile, the child is potentially facing quite detrimental, maybe even
abusive treatment and experiences. So then when you see these
young stars start to show signs of mental illness or
quote unquote misbehavior, we as a society, as we do
with you know, most things, tend to view it as
(24:01):
an individual, isolated problem, what's wrong with them? But as
we're seeing, if these exact same stories are happening repeatedly
and for more than a century, then it's time we
need to look beyond the surface. So that's where you know,
I call this examination the toddler to train wreck pipeline
(24:25):
of young performers, Why are they, you know, in these
documentaries and memoirs talking about the same pattern of drug
addiction and psychiatric hospitalization and pescimated fortunes and sexual trauma
and incarceration and even in some cases for my peers
and maybe some folks, you know, suicide And why do
(24:48):
these elements define the lives and deaths of child performers?
Speaker 2 (24:52):
And so.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
I didn't have to unpack any of this until my
body shut down, because effectively, the stories that drove it
being okay for a young kid to be this quote
unquote exceptional talent who can work eighty hours a week
because they're so mature for their age and look they're smiling,
(25:19):
so they must be okay.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
All of this was upheld.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
Until my body literally screamed at me and said, no,
this is not how it is. And I was terrified
of any alternative possibility at that point because who was
I outside of the industry. That's literally all I knew.
(25:51):
I didn't even have life skills, like I was underdeveloped
in so many you know, quote unquote typical ways for
children and teens. And I didn't even go to regular school.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
You know, I really was. I felt stuck and scared.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
It's a very surreal world, I think to let people
in on. And you know, when you talk about the
toddler to train wreck pipeline, I loved the essay you
wrote about it, when you talked about it as like
an industrial complex, because it is. It puts people in
(26:29):
and it turns them through something, and it's part of
the reason they so many come out on the other side,
as you said, affected by all of the same quote
unquote afflictions. I think about it even for us as
adults in this industry. You know, I will give people
really honest answers about certain things that can happen at work,
and sometimes I met with this feedback like can't you
(26:52):
just be a little cheerier, And I'm like, no, I want.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
To be honest.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
This is you know, it's not what you think it
is from the outside side. And in the up ed
that you penned about it, you talked about understanding now
from the perspective of an adult, what a crazy thing
it is to be going through even the audition process
(27:17):
as a kid, and you compared these two stories you
were meant to tell in the same day. One of
them was that, you know, this child was kidnapped and
assaulted and the scene required screaming, and not just from you,
but you had to listen to it with all these
other kids going into this audition. And then you were
(27:37):
supposed to get in the car and like go audition
to be a princess for a toy commercial. And it
was so happy and gorgeous, and you were six years old,
and it's like, nobody talks to us about how to
deal with that stuff as adults in the industry. I
know for a fact, nobody was talking to about it
about how to deal with it at six, right, But
(28:00):
with the training that you've chosen to go through, the
way that you have let yourself pursue your curiosity and
identity outside of being a performer, you know, being a
good girl who shows up and does her work, but
actually following your own personal curiosity to where it leads
(28:22):
to you, and it has led you into this mental
health space. When you look back at something like that,
when you think about the story you penned prior to
the book, you know, how do you kind of make
sense of it for you? And then as an advocate,
how do you see there being another option for others
(28:46):
who do want to tell stories, but who aren't really
given any kind of roadmap about how to take care
of their mental health while being required to embody stuff
like this.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
Well, this is my favorite part, because now we're talking
about solutions, we're talking about possibilities, we're talking about things
that can work for entertainers but also people working across
any industry who, you know, our minds and bodies can
only tolerate a certain amount of stress and stimulation before
(29:19):
we leave what some refer to as our window of tolerance,
you know, and within our window we can experience ease,
a sense of safety, access to critical thinking, creative problem solving,
we feel like our quote unquote authentic self. And then,
of course, as stressors occur, we might dip high or
(29:41):
you know, above or below our window of tolerance. And
the hope is, of course that after these temporary stressful
experiences will close, that loop will return to our range
where things are all right. But for a lot of us,
these are that that doesn't sound like a realistic expectation
(30:03):
when you're overloaded with micro and macro stressors every single day.
And so when I think about that, for young people,
and I know, getting into the industry. As you mentioned,
there was no manual, no onboarding, preventative strategies, no preparation
for what you're getting into, no tools and techniques to
(30:24):
get into character and out of character when the six
year old's brain still neurobiologically cannot differentiate between fantasy and reality. Like, yeah,
this is a recipe for all of us to.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Be on the struggle bus.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
The good news is, or the opportunity that we have
is this kind of mind body education and learning which
tools you need in which moments of the day to
help cope and move through stress. These are available and
they don't have to be behind a super expensive paywall.
(31:05):
That's why you know, when I founded my mental health company,
Movement Genius, we specifically thought what is the most accessible, affordable,
casual way for people to get access to stress relief
techniques mental emotional health tools. You know, think about it
kind of like headspace and calm, but for a much
(31:27):
broader variety of strategies and tools to improve your well being.
So it's not just meditation, it's also like bilateral tapping
and progressive muscle relaxation, and they're guided led by therapists,
So you don't have to be the expert until you
start to realize, oh, I am building an awareness of
(31:49):
how my system operates and what to do to manage
the day. So looking back, I was always this kid
who was deeply researching and trying to understand that was
maybe in some ways my coping strategy. I needed to
know exactly why this was happening and because it because things,
(32:12):
you know, did not make sense until I knew everything
about it from every angle. And so now flash forward,
we designed actually, this is it's my most excited it's
the most exciting aspect of the conversation to me because
my intention is to contribute to solutions at every level
(32:38):
of the issue. So individually, we designed Artist Well Being Essentials,
which is to my knowledge, the first of its kind
toolkit where young performers and their families cannot only receive
some psycho education like foundational learning on the mind body connection,
but they also get access to these artists specific performance
(33:01):
related activities and tools that, as I mentioned, help them
get into a nod of character or manage stage fright,
manage rejection, you know, body image resources. And so that's
like a first line of prevention that doesn't exist and
should have existed many years ago. Yes, and then the
(33:23):
next step is okay, well, now we have to start
helping the adults working with miners understand what it means
to have a minor on set. And we're not just
talking like hey, watch your language, things like did you
know that some of these young children don't realize that
when you, as the audio engineer, are placing a mic
(33:43):
pack directly on their body, they've never learned anything about
bodily autonomy or consent. And if we don't help them
understand that it's okay to say, hey, I'd rather my
guardian be here when you do it, which they should
be anyway, or like hey, I can actually place this
here myself, like please don't touch me. That that's okay
(34:07):
and healthy and normal, and that you can collaborate together
in new ways instead of just saying this little kid
is sort of a prop or an ornament, and we
can do whatever we need to do with them, around them,
to them to get what we need done, including directors
like you know, coercing a child into a really dark
state of mind just to make sure they get you know,
(34:30):
the most epic emotional reaction on camera, so we can
brief adults and provide some simple best practices training preparation.
Then not just thinking about the kids, but the industry ecosystem.
I'm excited that I'm becoming a mental health coordinator for
(34:52):
productions and sets, so similar to intimacy coordination, which is
kind of like a new becoming more standardized thankfully. You know,
if someone has seen that involves intimacy, that can be
you know, sexual, it could be some kind of nudity.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
It could also be you know.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
Depictions of violence or like it's not always you know,
flowery and beautiful. With mental health coordination, we can analyze
the script and consult on like how you're depicting mental
illness to make sure that all of our loved ones
who live with schizophrenia or with other mental illness aren't
(35:31):
seeing harmful stereotypes that are inaccurate portrayed broadly to society.
But we can also be on set to help support.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Cast and crew.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
We can also help support editors who are watching sixteen
hours of footage back to back in dark rooms and
having to pick, you know, if it's a horror film
between this gruesome shot and this gruesome shot that takes
a toll and then zooming out even further federal policy.
I'm super excited. I'm now well, you know, I feel
like I'm following your footsteps in a way and seeing this,
(36:05):
you know, this aspect of civic engagement and legislative reform
and advocacy and how that's in necessary part. So we're
you know, working on passing some bills to better protect
children across media spaces, traditional and digital. And then the
largest aspect of this is our social conversations about this.
(36:29):
I think we are ready to graduate beyond these just
like sensationalized memoirs of oh my gosh, what happened to them?
And to actually start reckoning with the systems the way
we're doing with everything else, Like we want to know,
we want to talk about this.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
And in the book, why you.
Speaker 3 (36:50):
Know I called it semi well adjusted partially is because
what does it even mean to be well adjusted if
the society is dysfunctional? Right? Like?
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Do you want? Do we want? Is this?
Speaker 3 (37:01):
What are we trying to acclimate to? We know we
need some transformation in every space. So there are solutions
and it is happening, and there is hope, I promise.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
And now a word from our sponsors who make this
show possible. It's thrilling to know that it's happening, and
it's really exciting to witness you take your experiences and
(37:38):
turn them into change for other people. But I really
think part of what's powerful about the stories you are
telling right now and the advocacy for kids is that
in the way that our society really doesn't like women
and wants to tell adult women in this industry that
(38:00):
it's not that bad they have some relative privilege, nobody
can say that to a kid. It's so much harder
to tell a lie about a child in this world
than it is to perpetuate lies about women. And so
I as an observer, feel really hopeful when you talk
(38:23):
about solutions and you talk about hope. I feel hopeful
that once the charade is exposed as a charade, that
it might be possible to change it for everybody. Start
with the kids and work your way out, you know, I.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
Mean, don't give away my playbook too. Obviously, Yes, if
we can help people understand the most vulnerable person on set,
the child, is experiencing these things, and we can measureasurably
report the outcomes of these experiences now over a century.
(39:05):
Then yes, this this stands the chance of opening minds
to protocols that you know, affect everyone. I think about,
even all I'm learning in the digital space with s parenting,
the concept of posting you know, images and clips of
your loved ones and young ones online and I think
(39:29):
for the most part, adults are are sharing out of
love and out of pride and out of you know,
deep desire to connect with other people in new ways online.
And yet, similarly to the industry where we weren't given
a manual and we didn't know the risks in digital spaces,
(39:50):
we're not educated collectively on what that digital footprint for
your young one can mean for their future for and
worse and privacy issues, data issues, identity, theft, all of
these different ways that it could affect their future educational
pathways and employment. And it was just seemingly a very harmless,
(40:16):
adorable video of them in their room playing with a toy,
you know. And so I speak about this because this
isn't at all a blame game. It's more like, y'all,
you we deserve, we all need to up skill up
(40:36):
in this area because I believe actually that the more
we know, the more it'll become so obvious that you'll
naturally start making some shifts because.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
We simply didn't know better.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Yeah before, Well, when you think about it with any
major societal shift, I mean, think about the invention of
the seat belt. The idea that people ever drove around
in cars at high speeds with no seat belts is
insane to us. But when this was becoming, you know,
a federally mandated rule, there were states where people were saying,
(41:15):
you have no right to tell me what to do
with my body and my car. And you know, now
we think that of just how crazy it is that
you would put yourself at risk for no reason. And
so I think to your point, it's really important to
understand that this feels like our life, but it's also
(41:35):
so relatively new. You know, when the first Silent film
came out, I think it was like nineteen ten or
nineteen twelve or something. There's a story about how there
was a shot. The camera was, you know, on the
train track, and the train's barreling toward the camera, and
people got up and ran out of the theater because
they thought they were going to get hit by a train.
(41:57):
People did not know that the image they were looking
at was not in their physical space. No one had
experience with the moving pictures yet. Wow. And so when
you think about the fact that, like some of our
grandparents were born around that time, and now we're dealing with,
(42:19):
you know, a physical and a digital world. And as
you said, identity theft and deep fakes and all these
insane things that can be created by technology. It's so new,
we don't really know what we're doing yet.
Speaker 3 (42:35):
Yes, And in the spirit I gotta put a lot
of things in air quotes these days, the spirit of innovation.
We often are not pausing long enough to take inventory
of the impact of making these decisions. And obviously we
see that in how extractive we are toward the planet
and to people. And you know, yes, but you mentioned
(42:57):
something about deep fakes. I don't know if you've spoken
a lot about the already, but something I just recently
learned was that when it comes to intimate deep fakes,
there isn't a blanket federal law preventing intimate deep fakes
and AI deep fakes from being created.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
And now a word from our sponsors. You know, when
you talk about them, and you talk about the lack
of federal law. So my best friend Nia and I
actually served as two executive producers on a documentary called
(43:38):
Another Body, and it really does an incredible job. The
filmmakers did a beautiful job walking you through the experience
of this kind of abuse of a young woman. And
one of the things that startled me so much as
we've been, you know, campaigning around the US and the
(44:00):
filmmaking team also a eu to stop some of this
is the flippancy with which it's treated when ninety eight
point eight percent of all victims of deep fake abuse
are women and girls. Yes, And when you analyze societies
that are sick around the world, one of the first
(44:22):
signs of a backsliding democracy or the dissolution of a
healthy society is the increased legislating against the rights of women,
the increased abuse of women that increases in violence against women.
And this is violence against women and yes, also against
some men and boys, which is terrible. Undoubtedly one is
(44:46):
not I'm saying worse than the other. But women suffer first.
Is it is a sign of sickness. And one of
the things that really took my breath away was learning
in the year that they were making the film in
twenty twenty three that there were about just under four
hundred and fifty thousand of these images they could trace
(45:09):
on the Internet, and by twenty twenty four there were
four point two billion. YEA, So it is a sickness
and it is at risk of being a runaway train,
and it is another one of these things when we
think about industries that don't take human safety and wellness seriously.
(45:31):
We have a lot of work to do in these
tech spaces there, and I do think it's deeply connected
to the kind of work you're talking about doing in
the entertainment industry, whether it's influencing or television or films,
social media.
Speaker 3 (45:47):
And I.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
Really think about how I know it can feel overwhelming,
and I can imagine some of the folks at home
being like, holy, like this is scary. I feel like
I am going to tout, I'm going to desensitize a bit.
And something that really brings it back to right here,
front and center me and you for me, is a
(46:10):
moment in your own history that you mentioned earlier, because
when you turned eighteen, when you actually had your own
legal agency, you were also suffering from, as you said,
an assortment of eating disorders, and I know you had
checked yourself into a hospital. You've spoken about this really beautiful.
(46:31):
You talk about it in your story, and that your
team still wanted you to be auditioning when you were
clearly so sick, but people were profiting off of you sick,
so they didn't necessarily want to prioritize your wellness. It's
a painful story for you. It's a painful story as
(46:54):
a person who cares about you to hear. And I
think about how it's so representative of the way so
many people get treated. You know, you're working for the machine,
so the machine's just going to keep working you. How
did you how did you know you needed help in
(47:14):
that moment? How did you choose to help yourself? Because
I wonder if any of those personal aha moments in
time during that period might really resonate for somebody who's
wondering how to help themselves.
Speaker 3 (47:36):
I will admit that my decision to get help initially
was only so that I could stay on the hamster
wheel and win the race. It hadn't yet clicked that
maybe I didn't need to be on that wheel at all,
or that the wheel was sort of a false game
(47:58):
to be playing a fall race to be running.
Speaker 2 (48:03):
However, I do.
Speaker 3 (48:05):
Think that deep, deep, deep, deep deep within there was
some sense of dissonance between having a certain set of
values when I was not in front of anyone performing,
when I was not on the job clocking in and out,
but I was just alone, that kind of you know,
(48:27):
spiritual center, core, however you would define it, where those
values felt like they could not safely be integrated into
the rest of my life because they would ruffle feathers,
they would burn bridges, they would disrupt the flow of production.
(48:47):
And so I thought, well, I guess we just all
have to play dress up and wear a costume whenever
we go outside, and then at home is where we
just get to be this more whole sense of and
something maybe subconsciously clicked where you know, perhaps I saw
(49:07):
someone else who seemed to be living out their their
fullness in.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
Public, but I've recognized that.
Speaker 3 (49:17):
I actually have to learn how to be in this
kind of integrity in every room I walk into, and
it is going to.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
Have a different.
Speaker 3 (49:30):
Impact on people than I'm accustomed to, because, yeah, if
you're socialized as a person who you feel like you
need to be compliant, then it's gonna feel really uncomfortable
and unusual to start using your voice.
Speaker 2 (49:46):
Even in small ways.
Speaker 3 (49:48):
I'm talking tiny ways, like just saying actually, I do
have a preference where we eat for lunch as a group.
I mean, you know, not just like hey, boss, you
need to do this differently for the company, but like, hey,
he actually I am in back to pack calls. Could
we do this fifteen minutes later? You know that can
feel terrifying for some of us who don't want to
(50:10):
be a burden X Y Z. And so I think
you know, in rehab, in seeking help, I realized there's
a deeper desire here to not only collect all of
these disparate pieces within me and find some semblance of
wholeness just to feel like I can be intact, but
(50:31):
also now my work, my opportunity, my joy, is to
learn how to be this whole integrat itself in every
room and see how that can actually shift in atmosphere.
How you know, if you're led by wholeness, how can
(50:52):
wholeness start informing the way your team collaborates together? How
can wholeness be expressed in policy reform? And so I
do think it's critical if you're on this path to
really decipher what values are spearheading your transformation. If it's
(51:16):
going to be fear, if it's going to be hatred
of the other, if it's going to be just your
own sense of justice but not factoring in everyone else's, yikes,
we're going to create from those ideas. And you know,
I don't know that those are the outcomes I personally
want to see anymore. But if you're led by wholeness
and and you know, we'll say love as a broad
(51:39):
term for now and collective liberation, et cetera, then then
that starts to you know, imbue every conversation you have. Yeah,
and it's a slow for me, it was maybe for
some it's just kind of like wake up and everything's different.
For me, it's been a really slow and steady process.
(52:00):
I think we're now in a position where we really
would love to microwave our transformation. We would love to
feel better instantly. We'd love to see the world change overnight.
And I hope that people listening can realize this is
(52:21):
all going to happen one step at a time. So please,
if you're waiting for that big, perfect overnight switch, that
might stop us from taking that small step in our
healing journey today, and if it feels overwhelming, this is
where we get to just keep breaking it down into
smaller steps until the next step feels doable. And that
(52:45):
next step might only be becoming willing to be willing
to be willing to try something differently.
Speaker 1 (52:53):
Yeah, I love.
Speaker 3 (52:55):
I think hopefully there's something in there that resonates absolutely.
Speaker 1 (52:59):
I mean, I know I can speak for myself. It
certainly does for me. You know. I think about this
moment I had when I had to change everything and
I had been taking these small steps, and I will
never forget looking at someone at work and essentially saying like,
(53:22):
what the is it going to take? And this person
who I'd been going to and going to and going
to and going to, was like, I had no idea
you were this upset, And I thought, whoa I've been.
I have been coming to you with things that are
so hard for me they feel nearly impossible, and you
think I'm having like a slightly off day like hello,
(53:46):
And I think there's some sort of reckoning there was
for me, at least with Oh, I've I've been so
conditioned for my whole career to be a good girl
and to be a good performer, and to put everyone
else's needs first, that when I think I'm putting my
mind needs first, no one even notices WHOA and the
chasm between what felt so hard for me? Could we
(54:11):
go here for lunch? Example? If you will didn't even
register for anybody else. And I think I don't say
that to be dismissive of myself or anyone else's journey.
I actually say it to say you will be doing
the work and healing in ways that other people might
not even notice, and it will be so major for you,
(54:36):
and to begin is what everyone deserves. And so I
love listening to you talk about it because you are
so far into this journey. You have amassed certifications and
mental health, you have written this gorgeous book. You can
speak about it from a perspective that I think can
(54:59):
inspire other people people to begin their journey, and I,
for one, am grateful that you've done it. I am
curious about something, and I realize I've never asked you this.
I've thought a lot about how you're still doing so
much voice work, which is amazing because you have the
(55:20):
most amazing voice. But it struck me during this conversation
I'm like, wait, is that a space where you can
still perform but it doesn't it doesn't have to be
attached to your face or your body, or your age
or your weight or your dancing or whatever. Is that
actually just where you feel the most free as an artist?
(55:41):
Is that why that's a space you still really enjoy
embodying in the traditional entertainment world.
Speaker 2 (55:48):
Do you think that's a great question.
Speaker 3 (55:50):
I'm going to give you a very messy answer.
Speaker 1 (55:53):
Okay, I like messy.
Speaker 2 (55:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (55:56):
The messy answer is it's multi pronged. One, yes, I
actually have had historically and presently really positive experiences in
the booth as a voiceover actor. And two, where we
(56:16):
start to get messy is I'm also pursuing these new
professions in you know, the mental health field, and I
don't have a steady stream of income yet totally, so practically,
I'm still on several animated shows and that is one
revenue source while I figure out what my next steps are.
(56:42):
And three contracts are contracts, so I am legally obligated
to fulfill some of these characters gratefully. Like I mentioned,
I do enjoy the process and I think it I
think the voiceover community in my experience is very different
from folks who work on camera in that I've found
(57:04):
that it's, you know, less egocentric, it's more collaborative energetically
when you're in the booth and it's you're spitballing back
and forth, and yeah, I think it's it also is
on a beautiful note, It's been a space where I
get to express silliness and a lot of the other
(57:28):
parts of my life now, especially running a mental health company,
can feel quite serious, yes, or even solemn, and so
experiencing joy and sort of an antidote to all of
these other things going on has been I think a
source of of you know, healthy, positive, you know occupational. Yeah,
(57:52):
it's like it's a positive vocation.
Speaker 1 (57:55):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (57:55):
Artistically, though, I.
Speaker 3 (57:56):
Just don't know down the road where I stand on
how much I want I want to be on the
performer side, I'm not sure.
Speaker 2 (58:07):
I'm not sure, and.
Speaker 1 (58:08):
I think that's okay. But I also love that you've
found this thing that feels good for you and generative
for you, and it also strikes me as lovely for
you because, as you said, you get to play, You
get to reparent your inner child, and that kid didn't
(58:30):
really get to play at work in the ways everyone
watching the edited episode assumed she did. So, I think
for you, it's just really beautiful to know that in yourself,
in your embodied self, in your adult self, in the
human you are, you know, who is out and proud
(58:52):
and studying and wise and all the things. The kid
you look back on is having a different experience now
with you. And I think that's I don't know, as
a person who roots for you, I really I like
that for you.
Speaker 3 (59:11):
Thank you, yeah, thank you for noticing. And yeah, we
just had Phineas and for release a new season for
Disney Channel and Disney Plus and that group of people
in particular. Yeah, like I've known them for actually twenty
years of my life.
Speaker 1 (59:29):
That's so cool.
Speaker 3 (59:30):
So and I joke with them like, you're actually the
most stable, inconsistent relationship I've ever experienced. So it is
a it is a spot of beauty. It's a very
bright spot in my life at the moment.
Speaker 1 (59:44):
I love that. How how do you feel now? I
mean precipice of the book coming out. I know there's
nerves about that, but just in life, how are you doing?
Speaker 3 (01:00:00):
I feel more and more okay with who I'm not,
and more and more an acceptance of the fact that
my path is not going to look the way I
once thought it would, and more and more eager to
plug into local community, non industry related efforts to just
(01:00:25):
look out for people, take care of each other, share meals, simplify.
Speaker 2 (01:00:34):
My lifestyle.
Speaker 3 (01:00:35):
I mean, it was already quite simple, but I just
I feel more and more at peace with, ironically, after
the book is out, being as unrecognizable as possible and
fading into obscurity as quickly as possible if the life
path allows for that. You know, if I need to
(01:00:56):
come forward and say things, I'll say things. But I
just feel more and more at ease with letting the
past go and saying I'm gonna, you know, walk this
walk of advocacy for a period of time. But I'm
also not going to glue myself to this soul mission
(01:01:18):
because I've got more to learn, I've got more to experience.
I'm entering my thirties, so I'm you know, I think
when this is out, I'll be newly thirty two or
close to it. And there's something just about aging that,
you know, shifts, It just shifts your orientation.
Speaker 2 (01:01:39):
I've got nephews.
Speaker 3 (01:01:40):
Now, who are the age I was when I started
working professionally. That's a profound thing to witness and go
oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah that I should have
known that none of that should have ever happened because they.
Speaker 2 (01:01:52):
On the im being on a set.
Speaker 1 (01:01:54):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (01:01:55):
Yeah, hard to fathom.
Speaker 2 (01:01:58):
But yeah, I just I think I think things are generally.
Speaker 3 (01:02:02):
I just I want to feel more and more closely
connected to humanity and to community and to whatever it
takes for us to repair and reimagine a better world
for everyone. And I mean it's it sounds abstract, but
I mean that in very like concrete, daily decision kind
(01:02:24):
of ways. Yeah, just feeling more embodied, more heart led
and finally, finally it's kind of scary for me because
it's new, but getting in touch with anger. Yikes, what
a powerful what a powerful and necessary process. Yeah, that
is really helping. Sorry I'm meandering now, but something I'm noticing.
(01:02:48):
You speak to things that happen in the industry but
happens everywhere.
Speaker 2 (01:02:52):
The wage gap.
Speaker 3 (01:02:54):
Yo. I was given presented an offer with some terms recently,
and I was like, this is actually absurd. I don't
I'm not even we're this is so unfair and like
it's not a livable wage, Like we know I can't
do this, but I'm realizing ten years ago, I wouldn't
(01:03:14):
have even noticed.
Speaker 2 (01:03:15):
I would have been like, oh.
Speaker 3 (01:03:15):
Wow, thank you, y'all take anything, And then you know,
I would go back to my budget and be like, Okay,
how many other jobs am I going to need to
get so that I can make ends meet?
Speaker 2 (01:03:24):
And now I'm like, wait a.
Speaker 3 (01:03:25):
Second, I can feel that something's not right, so I'm
more in touch with like, Okay, we've been at this
for you know, over two decades.
Speaker 2 (01:03:37):
It's time for different terms.
Speaker 1 (01:03:40):
Yeah, and I think there's nothing wrong with that. I
think there's nothing wrong with knowing your worth.
Speaker 2 (01:03:47):
And we're talking fairness. Well, mean, that's it.
Speaker 1 (01:03:50):
Basic fairness is actually should just be ground zero, right?
What would you say that? It's that kind of acknowledge
or perhaps that the pursuit of a new relationship with
certain emotions like anger that feels like you're work in
progress as you go forward, because you've done so much
(01:04:12):
work that I'm looking at you in this moment going
like what do you kind of what do you feel like?
Is left?
Speaker 3 (01:04:19):
Ll So then the first thing I need to do
is let you in on the rest of it, because
if I'm only showing you where the completed version, then
that's probably some work to do.
Speaker 2 (01:04:31):
Actually, you'll see all of that in the book.
Speaker 3 (01:04:33):
If you're talking about want to see a work in progress,
the mess is on full display because you don't hear
from the wise, contemplative self. You hear the psychological self
figuring things out in real time. And I would say, yes,
my current journey is negotiating anger and learning to steward.
Speaker 2 (01:05:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:05:02):
It is around it is around worth, it is around
self trust, it is around anger as being an indicator
that something needs attention.
Speaker 2 (01:05:13):
And I think it's it's also where I'm really presently
moving forward.
Speaker 3 (01:05:20):
Yeah, I'm trying to think, like I'm actually don't know
what comes after this book because it's sort of the
culmination of this, you know, first century of life and
first third of life maybe, and I'm kind of handing
it over to everyone and then saying I actually don't
(01:05:42):
have a plan from here on out. So that's exciting,
it's exciting and nerve wracking. And that's where I'm absolutely
a work in progress. I have no idea what happens
after this.
Speaker 1 (01:05:59):
I loved that for you.
Speaker 3 (01:06:01):
I also don't know if the industry is going to
spite me, so.
Speaker 1 (01:06:07):
There's not think so, I don't think so. I think. Look,
I think we are in a really watershed moment as people,
and I think bravery, particularly empathetic bravery, is what we need.
So I'm excited for you, and I'm excited for everyone
(01:06:27):
who gets to read the book. Congratulations, Yes, thank you,
and if you do read it, please read with care
and take your time because it covers a lot. Yeah,
and I would love to hear people's responses because this
is this, all of this, it's a communal act, like
we've got to do this together.
Speaker 3 (01:06:46):
Can't do these things alone.
Speaker 1 (01:06:48):
Preach it, my friend, preach it. Thank you, thank you
for coming today.
Hosts And Creators
Sophia Bush
Bethany Joy Lenz
Robert Buckley
Hilarie Burton
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