July 3, 2025 • 59 mins
One of our favorite guests is back on the pod! Multi-award-winning actor, producer, director, and proud father David Oyelowo has been very busy in front of and behind the camera! Currently, he can be seen in his Apple TV+ series “Government Cheese,” and if you love the art of acting, this chat is not to be missed!
The actor joins Sophia for a revealing conversation about his new show and the long road to getting it made, being a forever student of acting and storytelling, the things you can’t learn in drama school, the sheer amount of rejection you will face in this industry, and the key to successfully pitching projects!
Plus, he chats about him and his wife being “half empty nesters,” how he feels about his son going to the same drama school he did, and his current work in progress!
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome
back to Work in Progress. Friends. We are joined today
by a guest who's been here before, who absolutely moved me,
(00:24):
inspired me, got me so fired up about everything from
art to existence, and he's back today to do it again.
We are joined by none other than David o'yelowo. He's
here to talk to us today about his new Apple
show Government Cheese, which is set in nineteen sixty nine
in the San Fernando Valley here in Los Angeles. The
(00:47):
series follows the Chambers family, an African American family living
here in the valley, and the chaos that arises after
burglar turned inventor Hampton Chambers, laid by mister o Yellowo
return from prison. David is an exceptional human and an
exceptional artist who you know from winning I mean so
(01:09):
many awards it would take me too long to list
them all, but who you also know from coming on
the show to share about his upbringing in London and Nigeria,
his path to artistry, fatherhood and faith. And today we're
going to dive into what it really means to be
creating and to trust in where we're going as a
(01:30):
society any year.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Like this one.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Let's dive in with David. Hi, David, I'm so happy.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
To see you in person this time. I know.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
It's so nice to be off of zoom and sharing
a couch and also not on strike anymore.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Yeah, yeah, we can talk freely this time. I know
I was having to be very cady about it. I
think it was Bass Reeves back then.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Yeah, it was an interesting time to interview you about
this beautiful project you'd made because we were technically also
not allowed to promote things. Yeah, and I remember feeling
a bit like we were playing mad libs, yeah, being like,
so the thing I know on the box looks cool,
(02:23):
but I don't know.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
I know we had to dance around it a bit.
But I you know, the reason I was so keen
to kind of talk to you again is actually, weirdly,
not being able to promote a project. Man, we got
to talk about such far reaching subjects and it was
it was actually cool to have just a really good conversation.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
It was so nice. It was fun when the team,
you know, we do the overviews every couple months of
Who's coming, and I was like, David's coming back. Yes,
and my whole team was like, we really feel like
the two of you bonded, I said, we did.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
I just love it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, likewise, yeah is
your wonderful spirit?
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Oh you too, my friend. So, as you know, normally,
when when we sit down with people, I really like
to go back and you know, talk about your childhood.
And you've shared those stories with us, you know, our
work in progress. Audience knows many beautiful details about your background.
But you shared something with me just before we started recording,
(03:19):
which kind of feels like a I don't know, a
little energetic connection to that. You were talking about how
since we've last seen each other, now you've got two
kids out of the house.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Is it sort of surreal as a father, you know,
to look at these young people that you've raised and
see them kind of out in the world beginning to
figure out their own life and education and journey when
they're not coming home and you know, you don't get
to make sure they're safe and tucked into bed anymore.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Not only does it feel surreal, it feels both very
natural and also really unnatural all at the same time,
which is a very discombobulating feeling. You know, the pandemic,
as we all know, was an incredibly challenging time for
the world globally speaking, but there were some really beautiful
things that came out of that. I think for a
(04:15):
lot of people. Certainly that was the case for my family.
We were suddenly in the house together for a very
long period of time, and the thing we came to
discover is we really like each other. And it was
the kind of proximity to each other that we never
would have had without that kind of generational event. And
(04:38):
you know, my wife and I have four kids, three
boys and a girl, and we just became even closer
than we already were. And the extraordinary thing was, even
though community and friendships and family is a big thing
in our lives, it was a moment where we kind
of went, gosh, we are enough for each other. You know,
(05:01):
we we were thankfully we were blessed with a lovely
property where we have a decent amount of space. We
had four dogs and six chickens and two parrots, and
you know, we sort of had this whole existence. But
it meant that that when the pandemic was over and
when life started gaining some kind of semblance of normal
(05:23):
normality again, we really missed each other when we weren't
in proximity to each other in the same way. So
to have had that and then suddenly we go from
six in the house to four in the house was
really difficult. I remember taking my because if my second
(05:44):
son left first, he's now at drama school in London.
He's in his second year now, and we were at
Lax dropping him off, and I was trying to be
very brave, and it was a real outer body experience
for me because one of my most stark memories is
the moment I was leaving home to go to the
(06:06):
exact same drama school at pretty much the same age
as Caleb, my second son, and it's the only time
I can remember seeing my mom sob with tears, and
it's an indelible memory of mine. And we were at
the airport and I was like, and I'm going to
be strong, you know, I don't. Let's not make this
(06:29):
about me, and my wife was taking him to London,
so they turned a corner and the moment they were
out of sight, I made a sound I will not
replicate here because it's incredibly ugly, but out loud in
the airport, and my daughter was holding my hand.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
She went, Dad, are you okay? And I was not okay. No,
I just was not okay.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
And it was three weeks of real devastation I felt.
And my wife is sort of better at these things
than me, certainly when it comes to our kids. She
has a delayed reaction. I'm instantaneous. It's like right there.
So and then my eldest son thought, oh, well, my
younger brother's at the house. It's time for me to
(07:20):
leave as well. So in like but this was three months.
You know, we were half empty nesters, as I like
to say. And yeah, but that's exactly what you're training
your kids, so you or you're cultivating your kids into
the ability to be able to leave and hopefully fend
for themselves and beg citizens and all that kind of stuff.
(07:40):
So that's the natural part. The unnatural part is just
how hollowed out I felt anyway, with them no longer
in the house.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Yeah, I mean, their whole lives, they've been with you,
and you get used to the rhythm of your home
as a parent, and the sounds and the footsteps, and
you know, when they're little, their little heartbeats when they
fall asleep at night, I can't. I sort of can't
imagine it. But what an amazing thing that the in
(08:12):
I don't even know what the word is I'm looking for.
It's surreal, but it's also so real. Yes, that you
got to stand and know exactly how your mom felt,
you know, you got to be in that moment you're
watching one of your sons go to the exact same school,
Like does it sort of take you back to when
and you did it and then also just feel like
(08:33):
a completely new journey at the same time.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
Well, it really typifies that we are part of this
cycle of life, this web that's been beautifully woven over
time generationally speaking, the fact that a school I went
to and I remember going to the London Academy of
(08:58):
Music and Dramatic Arts and being the only black student
in three hundred students, and my son is now there
with diversity as a real thing at that school and
he doesn't even have a thought about that. Like when
I tell him what I my situation was, he can't
(09:21):
get his head around it because it's just so antithetical
to what his is. And that's beautiful. It's beautiful to
see progression in a generation. But similarly, my dad did
not want me to be an actor at all.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
What did he call you a jester?
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (09:38):
Exactly, exactly remember that? Or he said what do you
Why do you want to go and be a jester?
You know so, but that was it's that thing where
you cannot be what you cannot see, so to speak.
And my dad couldn't see a path for me. My
son could see a path for him through me and
(09:58):
was able to take it for granted. So that's beautiful.
That's something I just feel so proud of. And people
often ask me if I'm trepidacious about him becoming an actor, because,
as you know, it's a very very trepidacious profession. But
I can't be that way because it would be hypocritical,
bearing in mind my parents' attitude towards it. Thankfully, he's
(10:22):
very good. You know, I would have told him if
he wasn't. It's all subjective, but I definitely would have
done him that favor, and he's genuinely passionate about it,
so you know, it's kind of a beautiful thing to witness.
Do you.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
As you prepared him to go off to drama school,
did you work with him? Did you give him any
sort of inside tips on how you get into a script?
How did you do that?
Speaker 3 (10:45):
Yeah, I mean, you know, it's incredible. Kids absorb so
much more of what you do than what you say.
So it's extraordinary just how much just from watching me
prepare for a role, or how I research, or you know,
being on set with me. It's extraordinary how much he
had already internalized. But you know I did help him
(11:09):
with his audition pieces and things like that, and also
just with advice. You know, drama school is a very
vulnerable circumstance to find yourself in because often you're the
big fish in a little pond where you've come from,
and you're a tiny fish in this big pond. All
(11:31):
of a sudden, everyone there is talented. Everyone has gone
a journey to be accepted into this prestigious conservatoire, and
that in and of itself is quite discombobulating. But there
are syndromes. You know, the first year there's a stripping
away because you've picked up bad habits. Your body is
something that is being pushed, pulled and prodded in order
(11:53):
for it to be able to, as we call it,
find your zero. You know, you need to be able
to play the Prince and the pauper. In order to
do that, you have to know what neutral is, and
so you're stripping away a bunch of stuff. You feel
incredibly vulnerable because everyone else in your class it feels
like they're better than you at being an actor, whether
it's dance or fight or accents or whatever. And he's
(12:17):
going at the age of eighteen nineteen, so you're still
forming as a person. So I was able to really,
through my own experience, talk to him about what he
to anticipate, so to speak, but also just to help
him realize that his journey is very different, is going
to be different than anyone else's journey. He actually didn't
(12:39):
want to go to Lambda because I had gone there,
because he's very allergic to the idea of anyone thinking
of him as gaining anything because of who his dad
is or where his dad has been. But ultimately Lambda
was just the best of the schools, or he felt
it was the best of the school the audition that
(13:01):
But yeah, you know, that's been the joy is to now,
especially because now he's in his second year. We have
very in depth conversations about acting, and because he's so
he's drunk with it. In that way that I remember
being when I was his age. And that's a really
wonderful thing because I am a forever student of acting
(13:21):
and storytelling, and so to have those kind of conversations
with my own son is really beautiful.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
That's beautiful. I think there's something there's something so beautiful
about being an artist because it is it is that
the potential at least of being able to remain an
eternal student, being able to be curious forever. And I
would imagine there's a there's kind of a purity of,
(13:49):
you know, a nineteen year old boy finding his way
and as you said, you're developing, your brain is still developing.
He's finding his voice and his art and then also
able to talk to his dad. It it must put
you to in this really interesting dance together.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
Yeah, it's I can always feel the moment where he
pushes away because he wants to find his own way,
and the moments where he leans in because he recognizes
and appreciates he has a bit of a cheat code
in terms of having a dad who's experienced.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
A lot of the specifics.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Of what it is to be an actor, because it's
incredibly nerve wracking, especially what he's dealing with now in
the second year is you're already coming to the end
of your training, because the third year is you're now
doing shows, and those shows are where agents are coming, Producers,
directors are coming basically potential employers of yours, or people
(14:55):
or facilitators of yours in terms of agents, and so.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
There is no real way.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
That a drama school can fully train you for what
it is to be a professional actor in terms of
the day to day.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Like, no.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
One can teach you how you are going to react
to the shit amount of rejection that you will have
to endure, the financial insecurity that comes with that. How
do you deal with bad reviews? How do you deal
with doing eight shows a week? You know, when you've
been at drama school and you do three performances of
(15:32):
a show, Now you're professionally expected to turn up every
day at a certain amount of time, and no matter
whether you've had a cold, a bereavement, whatever it is,
you're expected to be on that stage at a certain
time and giving a performance that is worthy of the
money paid by the people who are coming to see
the show. Those are all things that you learn on
(15:52):
the job, even silly things I remember the first time
being on a movie set and seeing all these different
colored bits of tape on the floor, and I are
those I don't I know they're important, but I don't why.
And then I would see other actors walk up to
this colored tape and hit that mark perfectly without looking
(16:15):
down at it. That's something that I hadn't been taught
at drama school. I think they do that more now
at drama schools. They teach screen acting and the technicality
is of it. But you know, there was like such
a vulnerable making moment he has. I mean, I remember
the day, the moment actually when I thought, oh, I
(16:38):
think I think he's got the bug. And it was
on the set of Selma. He was playing my son
in it. There was no dialogue, and they'd set up
this scene. The camera was facing this dining table and
the chairs were all around the table. I watched my
(17:00):
son and he gosh, that was so. He probably was
seven eight something like that, maybe maybe maybe yeah, eight,
And he walked onto the set, looked at where the
camera was, and then found the chair that was.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Directly in line with the camera.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Sat in that chair, regardless of anyone else who is
going to be in the scene and just looked down
the barrel of the lens smiling, and I thought, oh, dear,
here we go.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Here we go.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
And you know, he was sort of on a trajectory
to being an actor ever since, but he has been
on set, so for him, he knows what a mark
looks like. Yes, because he's he's been there. He's so
comfortable in that environment, which I think has given him
a leg up to speak in a good way. But again,
(17:50):
you know, talking about talking about these things with him
is a real joy for me.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Yeah, and now a word from our sponsors who make
the show possible. One of the things that excites me
about about it about for our friends at home Government Cheese,
is it's this world that is so delicious to step
(18:18):
into and look at, and all of these people is
quirky and hilarious. And there was a moment when I
first started watching you going what is it? What is
it about this show? And I like to watch them
before I you know, read the reviews. But then after
the first episode, I'm like, Okay, let me go read
all the articles you've been doing about it. And you
(18:41):
talked about how you've been in the time period before
and yes, how important the time period is to reflect
on truthfully, you know, our history matters to us. If
it didn't, they wouldn't be trying to ban all the
history books. But also how refreshing it is for you
as an to be in this period with no trauma, strife,
(19:05):
no civil rights fight, no, you just get to be
this family in this time and place. And I thought,
I think that's what it is. I haven't seen it
when it hasn't been historic with the real heaviness of
the history, and I was like, God, I'm having so
(19:27):
much fun watching you have fun.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Right, right, right right.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
I mean, that's incredibly astute because one of the phrases
that has come up time and again from people who've
watched the show is I haven't seen anything quite like
it before. And I think that's to do with the tone.
That's to do with the characters, that's to do with
this black family in the San Fernando Valley in the sixties.
But I think that's also to do with how indelible
(19:53):
from an African American standpoint, the sixties are in relation
to strife, civil rights, racial unrest, trauma. And I have
been someone who's participated in projects that I am deeply
proud of that have showcased that very important part of
(20:14):
America's history. But that is not the totality of what
black people or people generally were experiencing in this country
at that time. And that's a product or a by
product of being marginalized. When you're marginalized, your story tends
to be told in very compartmentalized ways. So if you're Hispanic,
(20:41):
you are just constantly subjected to the narcos kind of
narrative or.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Being You're very rarely seeing.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
Hispanic characters that are lawyers and doctors and presidents and
you know, captains of industry and who are aspirational. But
in a narrative, they will they will be the house
cleaner or the or the gardener or the whatever, which
is a part of that experience. It's not the totality
of that experience. If you're a woman, you're constantly objectified,
(21:20):
or you're friend, Yeah, you're the arm candy of the
you know, and that is part of the experience, it's
not the totality of the experience. If you're African American,
you're you're a criminal, you're a drug dealer, you're a slave,
you're whatever. You know that there are black people who
have been those things in American history and life. That
(21:40):
is not the totality. As someone of of African descent myself,
you know, it's it's the African despot, It's the flies
on the little baby's face. It's all of those tropes
and caricatures, which the more prevalent they become, the more
oversized and out blown they are in people's minds as
the truth of what those people are experiencing.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Well, when the when the oppression becomes the identity, when
the suffering becomes the identity, you know, when when for
so long I remember hearing Naomi Watts talk about this
that you know, I don't even remember what the script was.
Just the thing she said rocked me when she said, oh,
this was the first script I'd read in however many
(22:25):
years of my early acting career where the woman I
was auditioning to play was not the victim of a
sexual assault.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Wow. And I was like, wow, Oh.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
You know, because when you were trying to get a
role on TV or whatever the case of the week,
if you're a woman and it's that, it's that you stop,
you start to forget, not that it's not incredibly important
to always know our history, to tell those stories, to
not shy away from them or sanitize them or whitewash them.
But I think it's important also to understand how things
(23:00):
are sized in our kind of mind's eye. When you
look at the flat map of the world, why have
the America's been drawn so enormously and why has the
African continent been shrunken on the map. It's the human
version of that to me, where we've outsized the reality
of people's experiences. And you know, I think back to
years ago, you know, when Moonlight was nominated for everything.
(23:22):
I loved that movie, and I really love movies and
TV shows that allow my black friends and actors I
admire to shine and that don't have to be about trauma.
I like watching a group of women. You know, the
reason I think Sex in the City was so revolutionary
(23:44):
to women in my age range is because these were
four successful women meeting for lunch on breaks from their
high powered jobs and their busy lives, and they were
just crushing it as these women, and we were.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Like, what what does this mean?
Speaker 4 (24:01):
And you know, now we.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Look back and we're like, no, not all of that
age So well, but at the time it felt like
a shock. And it's important to see people, as you said,
spread into other spaces of their totality. And I don't
think I would have necessarily put my finger on it
so quickly had I not read all the things you
(24:22):
said about it after I watched the first episode. But
I was like, that's the thing.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
I'm that's it.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
I don't get to see this a lot. And you
know the I mean, you know, wardrobe, the cars, the
set deck, it's like every department head on your show
deserves an award. It's so beautiful. But it must be
I don't know, it must be just like a different
kind of joyful to get to go and do that
(24:48):
that comedy in that time.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
I mean, you've hit on the word. It's joy.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
It's joy to be able to celebrate character, a family,
a show that genuinely colors outside the lines. The quirk
factor is something that you know, you very rarely see
(25:15):
with a black family because there are so few at
bats for.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Us as a people group. And so.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
The reality is you're constantly feeling the need to explain
your existence because you feel that, you know, if you're
writing a script and you have a character who does
something extraordinary, you feel the need for your first act
to be contextualizing who that person is. That by the
(25:47):
time they do the amazing thing, you go, oh, that
is amazing because they started here, and then they did this,
and then they did that, and then that happened, and
then there's the ending. Now, if you're a white male
actor storyteller, the cheekode you have is you have one
hundred and something years of cinema and television that has
(26:10):
given so much context to your existence and experience. That
means that you can get to the dramatic stuff very quickly.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
You know.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
So when you see Robert de Niro and Taxi Driver,
you see Daniel day Lewis in There Will Be Blood,
or you see Joaquin Phoenix and Walk the Line, and
they're playing these anti heroes. Those are not heroes, the
anti heroes. Or when you watch the work of Martin
Scorsese and you see people doing bad staff but you
still go the journey with them. The reason you do
(26:41):
that is because you have context for who that people
group is, and so you are giving them the benefit
of the doubt when you're watching them going. But they're
a human beings, So let me invest in why they're
making those choices.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
So would you say that context also gives you the
space to imagine their.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
Redemption, absolutely, because you're used to that people group being
worthy of redemption. If primarily what you've seen of Hispanic
people is that they are domestic servants, or they're criminalized,
or they're a part of some drug cartel, there's a
(27:20):
part of your brain that is not disposed to their
redemption when they are central in a narrative. So when
you put them central in a narrative, you feel the
need to do more legwork to contextualize why you should
tether yourself to that protagonist, and that ladens down the story.
(27:41):
So there is literally, in my opinion, and a correlation
between what streaming has afforded and us having more of
these stories, because what happened in Hollywood is that for
many years there was network which did what network did,
which is to make sure that the advertisers were happy,
(28:02):
and so the storytelling was, in my opinion, fairly basic,
because you just want it to be the kind of
storytelling that you know, you go to make a cup
of tea, you grab a drink, doing the commercials or whatever,
or even better, still stay for the commercials. Let us
sell you the soft drinks and all that that stuff.
And so it was a sort of a transactional way
to watch a story, whereas film elevated, I've got to
(28:24):
get you out of the house. I've got to get
you into the movie theaters. So I've got to cultivate
movie stars that are rarefied in a way whereby you,
as the audience, go, that is an event. So I'm
going to leave my house. So who gets to be
an event, well, a certain demographic of person, and who
gets to select who is an event? A certain demographic
of person, who then dictates whether something gets the requisite
(28:47):
marketing and gets to be international. And so these are
all circumstances where people are using their own bias to
decide what is going to be culturally impactful.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Now, and then they tell you it's equated with value exactly.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
Oh, and they are not even having to tell you that.
The billboard, the post suits, the marketing, the production value,
the budget attributed to the show or the film is
all telling you that. And the lack thereof for other
people groups is also telling you how they are valued
(29:23):
or not as well. But what streaming has done it
has come along and giving us data of who's actually
watching what. So I can clearly see an uptick in
representation on screen the projects I've been afforded the opportunity
to be a part of. I don't think bass Reefs
happens in a world before streaming. I don't think government
(29:43):
Cheese does either, because you now have data that's saying
people like these shows, and not just black people want
to see black stuff. You know, people when they see
humanity represented in a fun, dramatic, entertaining, thought provoking way,
they will tune in. Now when twelve guys in burbank
(30:04):
somewhere are just making all those decisions and deciding no,
they're not going to watch that, or they're not or
that that story doesn't have value, and we're all sort
of internalizing that lie that then becomes the cultural norm.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
So how do you? I mean, listen, You've got to
do your thing as who you are as an artist,
as an individual. Then there is the beautiful you know,
partnership not only in your family but in your work
that you and your wife have. You know, your production company,
You've done this deal with Apple, which is where the
(30:41):
show comes from. You obviously understand it because you've done
this as talent, you've done this as a producer. You
have this hybrid world where you do it all at
the same time. How did this show come to be
in the first place, Like, because you do have the
day now, you do know there isn't a hypothetical. Well,
(31:03):
we don't know if the demo's going to like that.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
I laugh.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
I think about years ago when Nia, who's you know,
my best friend in my better half, when we started
our business, she would hear a lot of like, well,
you're not exactly the demo, And now we walk into
rooms and do panels and she's like, I'm a black
woman in my forties with expendable income, I'm exactly the demo.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
And every panel she says it on the whole audience.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Goes crazy and it's like, my favorite moment of the day.
And so for us, even when we analyze how to
support women in the workplace, how to close the gender
lending gap in the world of finance, the data is
invaluable to us. Finance is hard enough, and a lot
of people say entertainment's harder. So for people at home
(31:50):
that are like, but then, how did you get on
the other side of it. How did you figure this out?
You know, how did you begin to say this is
my moment, this is time to pitch this show. Did
the show come to you? Did you go out and
find it?
Speaker 2 (32:05):
Like?
Speaker 1 (32:06):
How does it come to be that we're sitting here
in May of twenty twenty five talking about this show
that is on streaming, you know, showing people these other avenues, metrics, families, worlds.
Speaker 3 (32:20):
It's a great, great question, and the primary element is tenacity.
This show came to me in twenty eighteen. End of
twenty eighteen as a short film script. Paul Hunter sought
me out and said, I have this idea based on
(32:42):
my childhood growing up in the valley, and you're the
guy who I really want to do it with, and
it's to play a version of my dad. He was
in and out of prison, but he was this amazing guy.
He was an inventor, he was a visit And I
read the script and I hadn't read anything.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
Like it before.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
I was actually dissuaded by my manager at the time
from doing it because it's like, why do you want
to go and do this little thing? But I saw
something in it that was so unique and I thought, that,
to me is what artistry looks like. When I find
something that I haven't seen the likes of before, or
(33:21):
I find something that I think has a special quality,
that of course is what you're looking for. So you know,
I didn't have any expectations that it was going to
spin into a show. But we made this short film
over four days in early twenty nineteen, and that quirky,
unique quality that I felt on the page manifested in
(33:42):
what we shot, and that became a proof of concept
that we ended up taking to Apple and we spun
into a show, and that has been the mark of
a lot of the key elements in my career. It
was the same thing with how I got to work
with Ava Duvernet on Selma. It was sitting next to
a guy on a plane, him watching on his iPad
(34:03):
me in a show that I'd done back in the UK,
turning to me and saying, is this you I'm watching
on my iPad? I said yes. He goes is putting
money into movies a good idea? I said, well, give
me some context. He said, Well, this is lady called
aver Duna. She's doing a film called Middle of Nowhere.
She asked me for fifty thousand dollars towards her film.
(34:23):
I said, okay, let me read it.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
I read it.
Speaker 3 (34:24):
I thought this was fantastic. I said, not only am
I going to tell you to put money into that,
I'm calling this lady and asking her if I could
do her movie. Called her up, because you know, it
was the title, her name and her number was on
the cover of the script. Called her up and she said,
oh my gosh, I cannot believe you're calling me about
You were on my list. But I was like, there's
no way you would ever do this. I said, this
(34:47):
is exactly the kind of film I grew up wanting
to be in because it feels like early Spike Lee.
To me, it feels like she's got to have it more,
better blues. It feels like like that. And that's how
it ended up doing that film for one hundred dollars
a day. Again, my reps at the time told me literally,
the phrase was, this is not the kind of movie
(35:08):
you want to be seen doing because it was a
smaller movie. W I was like, I beg to differ there,
and so that was a film I did with her.
We made it for two hundred thousand dollars all in,
but she ended up winning Best Director at Sundance for that,
and that gave me the tools I needed when we
were struggling to get Selma off the ground to say,
(35:29):
I found the lady to direct this movie. And that's
how Ava ended up directing Selma.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
So the point being that how I.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
Have been very blessed to be where I am now
is the projects that have been most meaningful to me
have taken an average of five to ten years to
get off the ground. You know, Bastris was ten years,
Selma was seven years, Government Cheese was six years, The
United Kingdom was seven years. And it's all about going, Okay,
I belie leaving that and every single day I'm going
(36:02):
to do something to move the needle towards it coming
to fruition. And the entertainment industry is inherently fear based,
not faith based. And if you are able to go
into rooms with a degree of faith rooted in tenacity
and how much energy you have put into the project,
(36:24):
that's something people feel able to bank on. Yeah, because Okay,
if you believe in it that much, I'm skeptical about it.
You've done work that I respect. The combination of your
advocacy for it, the things I've seen you do, and
my slight trepidation about it, which is being offset by
(36:46):
your disposition, is the thing that's going to make me
lean towards you. And you know, Bastrie has got rejected
by the entire industry three times before it came to fruition.
I put on the Way I needed to play Doctor
King twice and had to then drop the weight because
the film didn't go. So you know, those are all
(37:06):
moments where you could have gone, you know what, I
just can't do this anymore. That's what it takes. It's tenasty.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
I love that. And now a word from our wonderful sponsors.
When you talk about and you've said this a few times,
that the things that you produce or gifts to your
(37:36):
younger self, I think about that in terms of what
you said about representation, how different it was in your
class at Lambda versus how it is for your son.
I think about what it means to get to see
yourself and to know that your younger self is seen
(37:57):
in the work you do. And now I think about
how that tenacity, that self assuredness, in a way has
to be a gift to him too. Yes, to know
that that thing you were convinced of when you were
young and didn't have the proof but had the feeling
(38:18):
is true.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
Yeah, I would say that's cultural. The gift of that,
I think came from having about seven years in my
youth where we moved back to Nigeria, and just to
be in an environment where your marginalization, your anomalization is
(38:45):
not prevalent. Where you go, oh, everyone looks like me,
Every opportunity on offering this society is mine for the taking.
And to have that be something you're around enough for
it to become internalized mentally. Even though I now found
myself back in the UK now in America, in environments
(39:08):
where that is not necessarily the case being a black man,
but I've felt it in my body enough. I have
muscle memory. I have muscle memory of what it feels
like to walk into rooms and not have to explain
my existence or apologize my existence. And then what starts
to happen, or what happened for me, is that that
(39:29):
disposition started being rewarded with people leaning towards you. Because
you know, there's a phrase I use often which is
people treat your home the way you treat it and
people treat you the way you treat yourself to a
certain degree, and it's a quality that I recognize hugely
with Sydney Poitier, for instance. You know, there's no way
(39:50):
he's achieving what he achieved when he did, considering the
levels of racial discrimination that were going on in this
country at that time, if he's not in a disposition
that defies expectation, which has people kind of.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
Going, Okay, I guess we'll give.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
It to you, you know. And I think there is
a degree of that the way you move through the world.
I mean, it's a generalization to a certain extent, but
it's my lived experience, so it is specific to me
that I know, those years living in Nigeria were formative
(40:28):
for me. And I will say this, it's something that
you know, you have to be careful about from a
generalization standpoint, but slavery in this country, one of the
things that it set out to do is to destroy
the the the agency, the power, the self esteem of
(40:56):
black people. It didn't succeed in doing those things, not totally,
but it certainly stimied those things. And that is an
active It is an active.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
Means of engendering supremacy. You know.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
The way you achieve supremacy is for everything you do
to suggest that you are supreme over the person you
want to subjugate, and so you have that disposition of supremacy,
and then you subject the person you're oppressing to feeling
lesser than and that's the way you gain control. And
(41:39):
we see it even till this very day. The things
that are being attacked currently in this culture is all
about a certain section of society feeling like it has
power and supremacy over another.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
I don't care how you reframe it, how you try
to excuse it. That's what it is.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
Well, you can't reframe it or excuse it, because it's
simply true when you see a decorated general get fired
and replaced with an alcoholic from Fox News, right, Like,
what are we talking about?
Speaker 2 (42:15):
Right?
Speaker 1 (42:15):
Just what are we talking about?
Speaker 3 (42:17):
But there's very very clever language that gets used to
excuse those things. There are very clever qualifiers, and systems
of oppression are becoming more and more sophisticated. Yes, and
you see that with slavery migrating into the prison industrial complex,
(42:39):
you know, so it's it's it's different phraseology you're you're
you're not a slave, You're a sharecropper, you know, And
and these are these are all things to be mindful of,
because the central thought is the same.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
And when you really think about the fact that for
all of it requires a both and right, like a
willingness to hold dialectics, that many things can be true
at the same time. And I think about what for
me is sort of the seesaw of America, which is
(43:17):
some of the most exquisite ideals of any nation in
the world that we have often failed to achieve, and
some of the most horrific acts done in the building
of a nation with really incredible ideals, but that sought
them out at the time it was founded for very
few people, certainly not you and certainly not me. And
(43:39):
when you see the kind of cyclical violence of white supremacy,
you see the cyclical violence of patriarchy. It is not
lost on me that when you talk about what a
different world your son is experiencing, what a different world
I experience as a woman and a woman who is
a CEO of my life and all of the things,
(44:01):
the difference in my life to my mother's, the extreme
difference in my life to my grandmother's my grandmother who
was born in a stone farmhouse in the middle of
nowhere in Italy with no running water and no electricity.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
And I think about how so much of what fueled
the building of this country that was hidden, the history
they didn't want to teach, and they really don't want
to teach now, is that we used bodies as fuel,
largely black bodies. And by happenstance, the harm done by
(44:38):
the people doing that was also done to the women
who look like me, who unfortunately have often cozied up
to white supremacist patriarchy because they think it will protect them.
And I'm like, girly pops, it has nothing for you either.
Speaker 2 (44:52):
Run.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
And what's fascinating to me is the backlash we see,
the fact that you were no longer allowed to discriminate
against the best applicant, if that applicant were a woman,
if that applicant were a black man, and so on
down the line. No one wants to talk about the
fact that the greatest recipients of DEI in America are
(45:14):
white women. It is not lost on me that just
in a generation where we have certainly not achieved equity
to four hundred years of a power structure for white men,
but where we've gotten to pretty decent places as other groups.
The backlash is so crazy. They want to eradicate diverse
(45:38):
classes in colleges, They want to take away women's access
to birth control and healthcare.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
And I just.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
I wonder to what end? Because I also look around
and I know they don't have it the hardest. But
I also know white men in this try are killing
themselves at higher rates than anybody else. So I'm like, well,
clearly this isn't working for you either. I don't know.
(46:11):
I don't know where. I don't really know where we
go or what we do necessarily when the backlash to
even the illusion of more equitable power systems is so intense.
Do you feel like you are on the outside of
(46:31):
it as a man of color, but also on the
inside of it as as a man as a patriarch?
Do you do you kind of have to figure out
how to hold all of these truths at the same time,
Because you strike me. I know we don't know each
other that well, but I do feel like we did
the energetic, like sparkly thing, and now we're connected.
Speaker 2 (46:51):
In that way.
Speaker 1 (46:52):
Like you strike me as a as a non toxic man.
Yes you are. You are I think a wonderful father,
a wonderful husband. You exemplify if a really what appears
to be healthy, kind patriarchal energy. I'm like, that's a
(47:12):
good dad.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
That's my kind of guy.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
So like, how do you I don't know, how do
you wrestle with all of this stuff? And also how
do you leave all this stuff at the door and
just find joy in the way you talk about with
your show? How do you do it all?
Speaker 3 (47:29):
It's challenging. I don't feel on the periphery of it.
I feel very much in the center of it. But
the thing I know to be true is that foundations
are incredibly important. Foundations dictate what the building is, how
strong it's going to be, how integracy is going to be,
(47:51):
and whether anyone cares to admit it or not. The
foundation the building blocks of America pretty gnarly. You stole
the country and then stole the people to build that country,
and that's foundational, regardless of the tenets and the philosophies
(48:19):
that came after that that, some of which are incredibly
beautiful around equity, around how to build a society, but
If the foundation is so compromised, if in the soil
is murder and pillage and rape and all of these
(48:41):
things that are also foundational to the creation of this country,
whether people care to admit it or not, which again
is why the history is being obfuscated, then the only
way to offset that truth is repentance is to go, oh,
I didn't commit those things, but my forefathers, who we
(49:05):
are lionizing in this country and celebrating and therefore suggesting
that they were above reproach, did perpetuate these things.
Speaker 2 (49:16):
And then there are.
Speaker 3 (49:17):
Descendants of people who are alive today who were the
victims of what those forefathers perpetuated. At some point there
has to be some kind of acceptance of the fact
that what we all get to enjoy is built on
an incredibly questionable foundation. And the only way you can
(49:38):
move forward from that in a healthy way is the
acceptance of that, the repentance on behalf of your forefathers
for that, in order that you can have a chance
to move forward better than that was.
Speaker 4 (49:56):
And now, for our sponsors this week on Dear Chelsea
with me Chelsea Handler, Sophia Bush's here, tell me how
that feels to be a hot considered a hot lesbian.
Speaker 1 (50:07):
Quite an honor. You know what's funny when you're actually
more fluid with your sexuality, the swing goes from nobody
gives a shit who you're sleeping with too. You better
identify exactly who you are so we can figure out
what name to call you. And it's like, is nobody
been paying attention to like all the hot girls I've
been kissing on camera? Hi, I've always been here.
Speaker 4 (50:27):
Listen to Dear Chelsea on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (50:37):
Listen, these are the times, right, you've had like the
most hopeful and happy sections of the discussion, and we
have to have the heavy and the real because that's life. Yeah,
as you try to balance all of it for yourself
and you mentioned earlier to be in joy in the
work that you make, you have it with your family?
(51:01):
How do you do it? How do you balance? Are
there practices you have not just as you know David
the performer, but as David the man? What are your
practices for keeping your sort of sphere space joyful?
Speaker 2 (51:21):
Well? I count my blessings and you know a.
Speaker 3 (51:28):
Huge part of that is my wife my kids, my health,
I get to do for work that which I love
and would probably do for free.
Speaker 2 (51:42):
Don't tell Apple and never never for free.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
A raise in season two.
Speaker 3 (51:51):
But it's that, it's that it's counting my blessings. My
faith is a huge component of my life personally. But
you know, my wife and I have a two week rule.
Were never apart for more than two weeks. So yeah,
so no matter where I am in the world, like
we we recently, so she had to be so she
(52:13):
had to be in Hawaii for a retreat, and then
I was going to Katar to set up a film,
and then I had to be in London. And this
meant that we were going to go over by fourteen hours. No,
fourteen days. No, we weren't going to go over. We
(52:35):
were going to be apart for fourteen days, in like
six hours or something like that.
Speaker 2 (52:40):
And it was the.
Speaker 3 (52:41):
Assistance phones were blown up, right, Okay, so I am
going to I have to take her to the airport
at this time that you have to change my flight
because we can't. Oh no, we're still an hour over.
We're still at an hour no, because we went over
by eleven hours once and I can't.
Speaker 2 (53:01):
I can't do it.
Speaker 3 (53:02):
It's for me like a once I commit to something,
that is it. Yeah, And you know, I've been married
for twenty six years now.
Speaker 1 (53:11):
So it's working.
Speaker 2 (53:12):
It's working. But honestly it is.
Speaker 3 (53:17):
It can sound a little cheesy, it can even sound
like it's work, but love is something you work out.
Speaker 2 (53:23):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (53:24):
And when I talk about counting your blessings, it's going
I have someone I want to be back in proximity.
Speaker 2 (53:32):
Of no, like yeah, no more than you're really in
trouble after like two days.
Speaker 3 (53:38):
So so the point being, and we worked it out
and we were well within the fourteen days at the.
Speaker 1 (53:45):
End of the day.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
But it's it's it's the small things actually, you know.
Speaker 1 (53:49):
But what that says to me is also it's promise
is made, promises kept. Yes, love is something you work at.
Speaker 2 (53:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:56):
And I think if you wake up in your life
and you realize you quote have love.
Speaker 2 (54:01):
Yeah, No one's working at yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:05):
Then you don't have love. Then you have a business
partner or a roommate or whatever. And so even the
fact that after twenty six years you two are like
hold on six hours too many for me, I'm tickled
by that because what it is to me, is that
the promise is so important. Yeah, it's not just the
rhythm you keep, it's that you commit to keeping the
(54:29):
rhythm correct.
Speaker 3 (54:30):
It's beautiful, right, Thank you, thank you? And you know,
and I have kids who are healthy and who love
mommy and daddy and like being in proximity of them.
You know, I've seen what I've been around, great wealth,
I've been around great fame. I've been around the things
that people truly seem to value or aspire to. I'm
(54:53):
telling you right now for anyone listening who thinks that
there is something out there in those realms that is
going to transcend. If you have someone you like curling
up on a couch with, and you have food in
your stomach, and you are happy and keen to be
(55:14):
in proximity of people who maybe your kids, maybe your spouse,
maybe your family, maybe your friend, and the notion of
not having to talk to each other and yet be
comfortable around each other is yours. You have heaven on earth, Yeah,
because you're not having to work to be safe, to
(55:40):
feel loved, to love, to touch to you know.
Speaker 2 (55:46):
All of those things. Nothing.
Speaker 3 (55:47):
There is no place. I've been to so many places
in the world. There's no place I feel more like
I'm in a heaven on Earth situation than curled up
on my couch with my kids, with my wife, maybe
watching movie, maybe we're just all laughing at each other,
whatever it is. That's as good as it gets here
on earth. Guys. That's as good as it gets. And
(56:09):
it's not to do with the couch. It's not to
do with the movie. It's to do with the people. Yeah,
and that you want to be in proximity of those people.
And so those are the blessings I count amongst other things,
and that's where my joy comes from. And the reality
is those things are finite. You know, I've lost both
my parents. I know that these things are finite, and
(56:35):
so every day you have them, they are to be
embraced with a veracity that is just you know, every
ounce of energy within you.
Speaker 1 (56:44):
It's beautiful and it's a lovely reminder to focus on
the right things. Yeah, it seems that you're so practiced
at it. That's a muscle that you work. That gratitude.
Speaker 2 (57:00):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (57:01):
Does it Does it feel like something that will always
be your work in progress? Or is or is that
something else? Is it a project? An idea.
Speaker 3 (57:10):
It will always be a work in progress because you
don't know what's going to come along to upend it.
You know, when I lost my mom, that was that
took my peace for years. You know, she had a
brain aneurysm and she was in a vegetative state for
three years. And I'm the eldest son, and I felt
(57:32):
the need to sort of look after my brothers and
my dad, and I didn't do grieving particularly healthily. I
sort of tried to push it away, and so I
am still a work in progress when it comes to that,
just just forgiving myself for things that I probably don't
(57:56):
need to forgive myself for in relation to.
Speaker 2 (57:58):
My Oh oh gosh, maybe.
Speaker 3 (58:01):
I should have been there to make sure she was
taking the high blood pressure medicine or all the things
you know that that are tied to love. You know,
how much you miss someone is relative to how much
you loved them, So that's kind of healthy. But also
if you're if you're crippled by that feeling, that's unhealthy.
(58:22):
So that's that's a working progress. All of it is
a work in progress. I think that's the gift of life.
I think you know you're given this project which is
your life. And you know you're I'm never going to
be the totality of the actor I aspire to be,
or the father I aspire to be, or the husband
that I aspire to be, or the human being, because
(58:42):
fallibility is what is by definition, what makes you a
human being. And so but the journey of that is
it was where the excitement lies and the days where
oh gosh, I think I was a pretty good father today,
and then most days, oh gosh, I didn't think I
was a very good dad today, you know. So I
to be alive is to be in a work in
(59:07):
progress circumstance, and I like being alive. So being being,
being a work in progress is indicative that we're still here.
Speaker 2 (59:19):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (59:20):
Thank you for sharing all of your wisdom and heart
with us again today.
Speaker 2 (59:24):
Thank you. I always love speaking to me too,
Hey, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome
back to Work in Progress. Friends. We are joined today
by a guest who's been here before, who absolutely moved me,
(00:24):
inspired me, got me so fired up about everything from
art to existence, and he's back today to do it again.
We are joined by none other than David o'yelowo. He's
here to talk to us today about his new Apple
show Government Cheese, which is set in nineteen sixty nine
in the San Fernando Valley here in Los Angeles. The
(00:47):
series follows the Chambers family, an African American family living
here in the valley, and the chaos that arises after
burglar turned inventor Hampton Chambers, laid by mister o Yellowo
return from prison. David is an exceptional human and an
exceptional artist who you know from winning I mean so
(01:09):
many awards it would take me too long to list
them all, but who you also know from coming on
the show to share about his upbringing in London and Nigeria,
his path to artistry, fatherhood and faith. And today we're
going to dive into what it really means to be
creating and to trust in where we're going as a
(01:30):
society any year.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Like this one.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Let's dive in with David. Hi, David, I'm so happy.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
To see you in person this time. I know.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
It's so nice to be off of zoom and sharing
a couch and also not on strike anymore.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Yeah, yeah, we can talk freely this time. I know
I was having to be very cady about it. I
think it was Bass Reeves back then.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Yeah, it was an interesting time to interview you about
this beautiful project you'd made because we were technically also
not allowed to promote things. Yeah, and I remember feeling
a bit like we were playing mad libs, yeah, being like,
so the thing I know on the box looks cool,
(02:23):
but I don't know.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
I know we had to dance around it a bit.
But I you know, the reason I was so keen
to kind of talk to you again is actually, weirdly,
not being able to promote a project. Man, we got
to talk about such far reaching subjects and it was
it was actually cool to have just a really good conversation.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
It was so nice. It was fun when the team,
you know, we do the overviews every couple months of
Who's coming, and I was like, David's coming back. Yes,
and my whole team was like, we really feel like
the two of you bonded, I said, we did.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
I just love it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, likewise, yeah is
your wonderful spirit?
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Oh you too, my friend. So, as you know, normally,
when when we sit down with people, I really like
to go back and you know, talk about your childhood.
And you've shared those stories with us, you know, our
work in progress. Audience knows many beautiful details about your background.
But you shared something with me just before we started recording,
(03:19):
which kind of feels like a I don't know, a
little energetic connection to that. You were talking about how
since we've last seen each other, now you've got two
kids out of the house.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Is it sort of surreal as a father, you know,
to look at these young people that you've raised and
see them kind of out in the world beginning to
figure out their own life and education and journey when
they're not coming home and you know, you don't get
to make sure they're safe and tucked into bed anymore.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Not only does it feel surreal, it feels both very
natural and also really unnatural all at the same time,
which is a very discombobulating feeling. You know, the pandemic,
as we all know, was an incredibly challenging time for
the world globally speaking, but there were some really beautiful
things that came out of that. I think for a
(04:15):
lot of people. Certainly that was the case for my family.
We were suddenly in the house together for a very
long period of time, and the thing we came to
discover is we really like each other. And it was
the kind of proximity to each other that we never
would have had without that kind of generational event. And
(04:38):
you know, my wife and I have four kids, three
boys and a girl, and we just became even closer
than we already were. And the extraordinary thing was, even
though community and friendships and family is a big thing
in our lives, it was a moment where we kind
of went, gosh, we are enough for each other. You know,
(05:01):
we we were thankfully we were blessed with a lovely
property where we have a decent amount of space. We
had four dogs and six chickens and two parrots, and
you know, we sort of had this whole existence. But
it meant that that when the pandemic was over and
when life started gaining some kind of semblance of normal
(05:23):
normality again, we really missed each other when we weren't
in proximity to each other in the same way. So
to have had that and then suddenly we go from
six in the house to four in the house was
really difficult. I remember taking my because if my second
(05:44):
son left first, he's now at drama school in London.
He's in his second year now, and we were at
Lax dropping him off, and I was trying to be
very brave, and it was a real outer body experience
for me because one of my most stark memories is
the moment I was leaving home to go to the
(06:06):
exact same drama school at pretty much the same age
as Caleb, my second son, and it's the only time
I can remember seeing my mom sob with tears, and
it's an indelible memory of mine. And we were at
the airport and I was like, and I'm going to
be strong, you know, I don't. Let's not make this
(06:29):
about me, and my wife was taking him to London,
so they turned a corner and the moment they were
out of sight, I made a sound I will not
replicate here because it's incredibly ugly, but out loud in
the airport, and my daughter was holding my hand.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
She went, Dad, are you okay? And I was not okay. No,
I just was not okay.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
And it was three weeks of real devastation I felt.
And my wife is sort of better at these things
than me, certainly when it comes to our kids. She
has a delayed reaction. I'm instantaneous. It's like right there.
So and then my eldest son thought, oh, well, my
younger brother's at the house. It's time for me to
(07:20):
leave as well. So in like but this was three months.
You know, we were half empty nesters, as I like
to say. And yeah, but that's exactly what you're training
your kids, so you or you're cultivating your kids into
the ability to be able to leave and hopefully fend
for themselves and beg citizens and all that kind of stuff.
(07:40):
So that's the natural part. The unnatural part is just
how hollowed out I felt anyway, with them no longer
in the house.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Yeah, I mean, their whole lives, they've been with you,
and you get used to the rhythm of your home
as a parent, and the sounds and the footsteps, and
you know, when they're little, their little heartbeats when they
fall asleep at night, I can't. I sort of can't
imagine it. But what an amazing thing that the in
(08:12):
I don't even know what the word is I'm looking for.
It's surreal, but it's also so real. Yes, that you
got to stand and know exactly how your mom felt,
you know, you got to be in that moment you're
watching one of your sons go to the exact same school,
Like does it sort of take you back to when
and you did it and then also just feel like
(08:33):
a completely new journey at the same time.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
Well, it really typifies that we are part of this
cycle of life, this web that's been beautifully woven over
time generationally speaking, the fact that a school I went
to and I remember going to the London Academy of
(08:58):
Music and Dramatic Arts and being the only black student
in three hundred students, and my son is now there
with diversity as a real thing at that school and
he doesn't even have a thought about that. Like when
I tell him what I my situation was, he can't
(09:21):
get his head around it because it's just so antithetical
to what his is. And that's beautiful. It's beautiful to
see progression in a generation. But similarly, my dad did
not want me to be an actor at all.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
What did he call you a jester?
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (09:38):
Exactly, exactly remember that? Or he said what do you
Why do you want to go and be a jester?
You know so, but that was it's that thing where
you cannot be what you cannot see, so to speak.
And my dad couldn't see a path for me. My
son could see a path for him through me and
(09:58):
was able to take it for granted. So that's beautiful.
That's something I just feel so proud of. And people
often ask me if I'm trepidacious about him becoming an actor, because,
as you know, it's a very very trepidacious profession. But
I can't be that way because it would be hypocritical,
bearing in mind my parents' attitude towards it. Thankfully, he's
(10:22):
very good. You know, I would have told him if
he wasn't. It's all subjective, but I definitely would have
done him that favor, and he's genuinely passionate about it,
so you know, it's kind of a beautiful thing to witness.
Do you.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
As you prepared him to go off to drama school,
did you work with him? Did you give him any
sort of inside tips on how you get into a script?
How did you do that?
Speaker 3 (10:45):
Yeah, I mean, you know, it's incredible. Kids absorb so
much more of what you do than what you say.
So it's extraordinary just how much just from watching me
prepare for a role, or how I research, or you know,
being on set with me. It's extraordinary how much he
had already internalized. But you know I did help him
(11:09):
with his audition pieces and things like that, and also
just with advice. You know, drama school is a very
vulnerable circumstance to find yourself in because often you're the
big fish in a little pond where you've come from,
and you're a tiny fish in this big pond. All
(11:31):
of a sudden, everyone there is talented. Everyone has gone
a journey to be accepted into this prestigious conservatoire, and
that in and of itself is quite discombobulating. But there
are syndromes. You know, the first year there's a stripping
away because you've picked up bad habits. Your body is
something that is being pushed, pulled and prodded in order
(11:53):
for it to be able to, as we call it,
find your zero. You know, you need to be able
to play the Prince and the pauper. In order to
do that, you have to know what neutral is, and
so you're stripping away a bunch of stuff. You feel
incredibly vulnerable because everyone else in your class it feels
like they're better than you at being an actor, whether
it's dance or fight or accents or whatever. And he's
(12:17):
going at the age of eighteen nineteen, so you're still
forming as a person. So I was able to really,
through my own experience, talk to him about what he
to anticipate, so to speak, but also just to help
him realize that his journey is very different, is going
to be different than anyone else's journey. He actually didn't
(12:39):
want to go to Lambda because I had gone there,
because he's very allergic to the idea of anyone thinking
of him as gaining anything because of who his dad
is or where his dad has been. But ultimately Lambda
was just the best of the schools, or he felt
it was the best of the school the audition that
(13:01):
But yeah, you know, that's been the joy is to now,
especially because now he's in his second year. We have
very in depth conversations about acting, and because he's so
he's drunk with it. In that way that I remember
being when I was his age. And that's a really
wonderful thing because I am a forever student of acting
(13:21):
and storytelling, and so to have those kind of conversations
with my own son is really beautiful.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
That's beautiful. I think there's something there's something so beautiful
about being an artist because it is it is that
the potential at least of being able to remain an
eternal student, being able to be curious forever. And I
would imagine there's a there's kind of a purity of,
(13:49):
you know, a nineteen year old boy finding his way
and as you said, you're developing, your brain is still developing.
He's finding his voice and his art and then also
able to talk to his dad. It it must put
you to in this really interesting dance together.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
Yeah, it's I can always feel the moment where he
pushes away because he wants to find his own way,
and the moments where he leans in because he recognizes
and appreciates he has a bit of a cheat code
in terms of having a dad who's experienced.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
A lot of the specifics.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Of what it is to be an actor, because it's
incredibly nerve wracking, especially what he's dealing with now in
the second year is you're already coming to the end
of your training, because the third year is you're now
doing shows, and those shows are where agents are coming, Producers,
directors are coming basically potential employers of yours, or people
(14:55):
or facilitators of yours in terms of agents, and so.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
There is no real way.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
That a drama school can fully train you for what
it is to be a professional actor in terms of
the day to day.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Like, no.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
One can teach you how you are going to react
to the shit amount of rejection that you will have
to endure, the financial insecurity that comes with that. How
do you deal with bad reviews? How do you deal
with doing eight shows a week? You know, when you've
been at drama school and you do three performances of
(15:32):
a show, Now you're professionally expected to turn up every
day at a certain amount of time, and no matter
whether you've had a cold, a bereavement, whatever it is,
you're expected to be on that stage at a certain
time and giving a performance that is worthy of the
money paid by the people who are coming to see
the show. Those are all things that you learn on
(15:52):
the job, even silly things I remember the first time
being on a movie set and seeing all these different
colored bits of tape on the floor, and I are
those I don't I know they're important, but I don't why.
And then I would see other actors walk up to
this colored tape and hit that mark perfectly without looking
(16:15):
down at it. That's something that I hadn't been taught
at drama school. I think they do that more now
at drama schools. They teach screen acting and the technicality
is of it. But you know, there was like such
a vulnerable making moment he has. I mean, I remember
the day, the moment actually when I thought, oh, I
(16:38):
think I think he's got the bug. And it was
on the set of Selma. He was playing my son
in it. There was no dialogue, and they'd set up
this scene. The camera was facing this dining table and
the chairs were all around the table. I watched my
(17:00):
son and he gosh, that was so. He probably was
seven eight something like that, maybe maybe maybe yeah, eight,
And he walked onto the set, looked at where the
camera was, and then found the chair that was.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Directly in line with the camera.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Sat in that chair, regardless of anyone else who is
going to be in the scene and just looked down
the barrel of the lens smiling, and I thought, oh, dear,
here we go.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Here we go.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
And you know, he was sort of on a trajectory
to being an actor ever since, but he has been
on set, so for him, he knows what a mark
looks like. Yes, because he's he's been there. He's so
comfortable in that environment, which I think has given him
a leg up to speak in a good way. But again,
(17:50):
you know, talking about talking about these things with him
is a real joy for me.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Yeah, and now a word from our sponsors who make
the show possible. One of the things that excites me
about about it about for our friends at home Government Cheese,
is it's this world that is so delicious to step
(18:18):
into and look at, and all of these people is
quirky and hilarious. And there was a moment when I
first started watching you going what is it? What is
it about this show? And I like to watch them
before I you know, read the reviews. But then after
the first episode, I'm like, Okay, let me go read
all the articles you've been doing about it. And you
(18:41):
talked about how you've been in the time period before
and yes, how important the time period is to reflect
on truthfully, you know, our history matters to us. If
it didn't, they wouldn't be trying to ban all the
history books. But also how refreshing it is for you
as an to be in this period with no trauma, strife,
(19:05):
no civil rights fight, no, you just get to be
this family in this time and place. And I thought,
I think that's what it is. I haven't seen it
when it hasn't been historic with the real heaviness of
the history, and I was like, God, I'm having so
(19:27):
much fun watching you have fun.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Right, right, right right.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
I mean, that's incredibly astute because one of the phrases
that has come up time and again from people who've
watched the show is I haven't seen anything quite like
it before. And I think that's to do with the tone.
That's to do with the characters, that's to do with
this black family in the San Fernando Valley in the sixties.
But I think that's also to do with how indelible
(19:53):
from an African American standpoint, the sixties are in relation
to strife, civil rights, racial unrest, trauma. And I have
been someone who's participated in projects that I am deeply
proud of that have showcased that very important part of
(20:14):
America's history. But that is not the totality of what
black people or people generally were experiencing in this country
at that time. And that's a product or a by
product of being marginalized. When you're marginalized, your story tends
to be told in very compartmentalized ways. So if you're Hispanic,
(20:41):
you are just constantly subjected to the narcos kind of
narrative or.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Being You're very rarely seeing.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
Hispanic characters that are lawyers and doctors and presidents and
you know, captains of industry and who are aspirational. But
in a narrative, they will they will be the house
cleaner or the or the gardener or the whatever, which
is a part of that experience. It's not the totality
of that experience. If you're a woman, you're constantly objectified,
(21:20):
or you're friend, Yeah, you're the arm candy of the
you know, and that is part of the experience, it's
not the totality of the experience. If you're African American,
you're you're a criminal, you're a drug dealer, you're a slave,
you're whatever. You know that there are black people who
have been those things in American history and life. That
(21:40):
is not the totality. As someone of of African descent myself,
you know, it's it's the African despot, It's the flies
on the little baby's face. It's all of those tropes
and caricatures, which the more prevalent they become, the more
oversized and out blown they are in people's minds as
the truth of what those people are experiencing.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Well, when the when the oppression becomes the identity, when
the suffering becomes the identity, you know, when when for
so long I remember hearing Naomi Watts talk about this
that you know, I don't even remember what the script was.
Just the thing she said rocked me when she said, oh,
this was the first script I'd read in however many
(22:25):
years of my early acting career where the woman I
was auditioning to play was not the victim of a
sexual assault.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Wow. And I was like, wow, Oh.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
You know, because when you were trying to get a
role on TV or whatever the case of the week,
if you're a woman and it's that, it's that you stop,
you start to forget, not that it's not incredibly important
to always know our history, to tell those stories, to
not shy away from them or sanitize them or whitewash them.
But I think it's important also to understand how things
(23:00):
are sized in our kind of mind's eye. When you
look at the flat map of the world, why have
the America's been drawn so enormously and why has the
African continent been shrunken on the map. It's the human
version of that to me, where we've outsized the reality
of people's experiences. And you know, I think back to
years ago, you know, when Moonlight was nominated for everything.
(23:22):
I loved that movie, and I really love movies and
TV shows that allow my black friends and actors I
admire to shine and that don't have to be about trauma.
I like watching a group of women. You know, the
reason I think Sex in the City was so revolutionary
(23:44):
to women in my age range is because these were
four successful women meeting for lunch on breaks from their
high powered jobs and their busy lives, and they were
just crushing it as these women, and we were.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Like, what what does this mean?
Speaker 4 (24:01):
And you know, now we.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Look back and we're like, no, not all of that
age So well, but at the time it felt like
a shock. And it's important to see people, as you said,
spread into other spaces of their totality. And I don't
think I would have necessarily put my finger on it
so quickly had I not read all the things you
(24:22):
said about it after I watched the first episode. But
I was like, that's the thing.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
I'm that's it.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
I don't get to see this a lot. And you
know the I mean, you know, wardrobe, the cars, the
set deck, it's like every department head on your show
deserves an award. It's so beautiful. But it must be
I don't know, it must be just like a different
kind of joyful to get to go and do that
(24:48):
that comedy in that time.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
I mean, you've hit on the word. It's joy.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
It's joy to be able to celebrate character, a family,
a show that genuinely colors outside the lines. The quirk
factor is something that you know, you very rarely see
(25:15):
with a black family because there are so few at
bats for.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Us as a people group. And so.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
The reality is you're constantly feeling the need to explain
your existence because you feel that, you know, if you're
writing a script and you have a character who does
something extraordinary, you feel the need for your first act
to be contextualizing who that person is. That by the
(25:47):
time they do the amazing thing, you go, oh, that
is amazing because they started here, and then they did this,
and then they did that, and then that happened, and
then there's the ending. Now, if you're a white male
actor storyteller, the cheekode you have is you have one
hundred and something years of cinema and television that has
(26:10):
given so much context to your existence and experience. That
means that you can get to the dramatic stuff very quickly.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
You know.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
So when you see Robert de Niro and Taxi Driver,
you see Daniel day Lewis in There Will Be Blood,
or you see Joaquin Phoenix and Walk the Line, and
they're playing these anti heroes. Those are not heroes, the
anti heroes. Or when you watch the work of Martin
Scorsese and you see people doing bad staff but you
still go the journey with them. The reason you do
(26:41):
that is because you have context for who that people
group is, and so you are giving them the benefit
of the doubt when you're watching them going. But they're
a human beings, So let me invest in why they're
making those choices.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
So would you say that context also gives you the
space to imagine their.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
Redemption, absolutely, because you're used to that people group being
worthy of redemption. If primarily what you've seen of Hispanic
people is that they are domestic servants, or they're criminalized,
or they're a part of some drug cartel, there's a
(27:20):
part of your brain that is not disposed to their
redemption when they are central in a narrative. So when
you put them central in a narrative, you feel the
need to do more legwork to contextualize why you should
tether yourself to that protagonist, and that ladens down the story.
(27:41):
So there is literally, in my opinion, and a correlation
between what streaming has afforded and us having more of
these stories, because what happened in Hollywood is that for
many years there was network which did what network did,
which is to make sure that the advertisers were happy,
(28:02):
and so the storytelling was, in my opinion, fairly basic,
because you just want it to be the kind of
storytelling that you know, you go to make a cup
of tea, you grab a drink, doing the commercials or whatever,
or even better, still stay for the commercials. Let us
sell you the soft drinks and all that that stuff.
And so it was a sort of a transactional way
to watch a story, whereas film elevated, I've got to
(28:24):
get you out of the house. I've got to get
you into the movie theaters. So I've got to cultivate
movie stars that are rarefied in a way whereby you,
as the audience, go, that is an event. So I'm
going to leave my house. So who gets to be
an event, well, a certain demographic of person, and who
gets to select who is an event? A certain demographic
of person, who then dictates whether something gets the requisite
(28:47):
marketing and gets to be international. And so these are
all circumstances where people are using their own bias to
decide what is going to be culturally impactful.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Now, and then they tell you it's equated with value exactly.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
Oh, and they are not even having to tell you that.
The billboard, the post suits, the marketing, the production value,
the budget attributed to the show or the film is
all telling you that. And the lack thereof for other
people groups is also telling you how they are valued
(29:23):
or not as well. But what streaming has done it
has come along and giving us data of who's actually
watching what. So I can clearly see an uptick in
representation on screen the projects I've been afforded the opportunity
to be a part of. I don't think bass Reefs
happens in a world before streaming. I don't think government
(29:43):
Cheese does either, because you now have data that's saying
people like these shows, and not just black people want
to see black stuff. You know, people when they see
humanity represented in a fun, dramatic, entertaining, thought provoking way,
they will tune in. Now when twelve guys in burbank
(30:04):
somewhere are just making all those decisions and deciding no,
they're not going to watch that, or they're not or
that that story doesn't have value, and we're all sort
of internalizing that lie that then becomes the cultural norm.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
So how do you? I mean, listen, You've got to
do your thing as who you are as an artist,
as an individual. Then there is the beautiful you know,
partnership not only in your family but in your work
that you and your wife have. You know, your production company,
You've done this deal with Apple, which is where the
(30:41):
show comes from. You obviously understand it because you've done
this as talent, you've done this as a producer. You
have this hybrid world where you do it all at
the same time. How did this show come to be
in the first place, Like, because you do have the
day now, you do know there isn't a hypothetical. Well,
(31:03):
we don't know if the demo's going to like that.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
I laugh.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
I think about years ago when Nia, who's you know,
my best friend in my better half, when we started
our business, she would hear a lot of like, well,
you're not exactly the demo, And now we walk into
rooms and do panels and she's like, I'm a black
woman in my forties with expendable income, I'm exactly the demo.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
And every panel she says it on the whole audience.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Goes crazy and it's like, my favorite moment of the day.
And so for us, even when we analyze how to
support women in the workplace, how to close the gender
lending gap in the world of finance, the data is
invaluable to us. Finance is hard enough, and a lot
of people say entertainment's harder. So for people at home
(31:50):
that are like, but then, how did you get on
the other side of it. How did you figure this out?
You know, how did you begin to say this is
my moment, this is time to pitch this show. Did
the show come to you? Did you go out and
find it?
Speaker 2 (32:05):
Like?
Speaker 1 (32:06):
How does it come to be that we're sitting here
in May of twenty twenty five talking about this show
that is on streaming, you know, showing people these other avenues, metrics, families, worlds.
Speaker 3 (32:20):
It's a great, great question, and the primary element is tenacity.
This show came to me in twenty eighteen. End of
twenty eighteen as a short film script. Paul Hunter sought
me out and said, I have this idea based on
(32:42):
my childhood growing up in the valley, and you're the
guy who I really want to do it with, and
it's to play a version of my dad. He was
in and out of prison, but he was this amazing guy.
He was an inventor, he was a visit And I
read the script and I hadn't read anything.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
Like it before.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
I was actually dissuaded by my manager at the time
from doing it because it's like, why do you want
to go and do this little thing? But I saw
something in it that was so unique and I thought, that,
to me is what artistry looks like. When I find
something that I haven't seen the likes of before, or
(33:21):
I find something that I think has a special quality,
that of course is what you're looking for. So you know,
I didn't have any expectations that it was going to
spin into a show. But we made this short film
over four days in early twenty nineteen, and that quirky,
unique quality that I felt on the page manifested in
(33:42):
what we shot, and that became a proof of concept
that we ended up taking to Apple and we spun
into a show, and that has been the mark of
a lot of the key elements in my career. It
was the same thing with how I got to work
with Ava Duvernet on Selma. It was sitting next to
a guy on a plane, him watching on his iPad
(34:03):
me in a show that I'd done back in the UK,
turning to me and saying, is this you I'm watching
on my iPad? I said yes. He goes is putting
money into movies a good idea? I said, well, give
me some context. He said, Well, this is lady called
aver Duna. She's doing a film called Middle of Nowhere.
She asked me for fifty thousand dollars towards her film.
(34:23):
I said, okay, let me read it.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
I read it.
Speaker 3 (34:24):
I thought this was fantastic. I said, not only am
I going to tell you to put money into that,
I'm calling this lady and asking her if I could
do her movie. Called her up, because you know, it
was the title, her name and her number was on
the cover of the script. Called her up and she said,
oh my gosh, I cannot believe you're calling me about
You were on my list. But I was like, there's
no way you would ever do this. I said, this
(34:47):
is exactly the kind of film I grew up wanting
to be in because it feels like early Spike Lee.
To me, it feels like she's got to have it more,
better blues. It feels like like that. And that's how
it ended up doing that film for one hundred dollars
a day. Again, my reps at the time told me literally,
the phrase was, this is not the kind of movie
(35:08):
you want to be seen doing because it was a
smaller movie. W I was like, I beg to differ there,
and so that was a film I did with her.
We made it for two hundred thousand dollars all in,
but she ended up winning Best Director at Sundance for that,
and that gave me the tools I needed when we
were struggling to get Selma off the ground to say,
(35:29):
I found the lady to direct this movie. And that's
how Ava ended up directing Selma.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
So the point being that how I.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
Have been very blessed to be where I am now
is the projects that have been most meaningful to me
have taken an average of five to ten years to
get off the ground. You know, Bastris was ten years,
Selma was seven years, Government Cheese was six years, The
United Kingdom was seven years. And it's all about going, Okay,
I belie leaving that and every single day I'm going
(36:02):
to do something to move the needle towards it coming
to fruition. And the entertainment industry is inherently fear based,
not faith based. And if you are able to go
into rooms with a degree of faith rooted in tenacity
and how much energy you have put into the project,
(36:24):
that's something people feel able to bank on. Yeah, because Okay,
if you believe in it that much, I'm skeptical about it.
You've done work that I respect. The combination of your
advocacy for it, the things I've seen you do, and
my slight trepidation about it, which is being offset by
(36:46):
your disposition, is the thing that's going to make me
lean towards you. And you know, Bastrie has got rejected
by the entire industry three times before it came to fruition.
I put on the Way I needed to play Doctor
King twice and had to then drop the weight because
the film didn't go. So you know, those are all
(37:06):
moments where you could have gone, you know what, I
just can't do this anymore. That's what it takes. It's tenasty.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
I love that. And now a word from our wonderful sponsors.
When you talk about and you've said this a few times,
that the things that you produce or gifts to your
(37:36):
younger self, I think about that in terms of what
you said about representation, how different it was in your
class at Lambda versus how it is for your son.
I think about what it means to get to see
yourself and to know that your younger self is seen
(37:57):
in the work you do. And now I think about
how that tenacity, that self assuredness, in a way has
to be a gift to him too. Yes, to know
that that thing you were convinced of when you were
young and didn't have the proof but had the feeling
(38:18):
is true.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
Yeah, I would say that's cultural. The gift of that,
I think came from having about seven years in my
youth where we moved back to Nigeria, and just to
be in an environment where your marginalization, your anomalization is
(38:45):
not prevalent. Where you go, oh, everyone looks like me,
Every opportunity on offering this society is mine for the taking.
And to have that be something you're around enough for
it to become internalized mentally. Even though I now found
myself back in the UK now in America, in environments
(39:08):
where that is not necessarily the case being a black man,
but I've felt it in my body enough. I have
muscle memory. I have muscle memory of what it feels
like to walk into rooms and not have to explain
my existence or apologize my existence. And then what starts
to happen, or what happened for me, is that that
(39:29):
disposition started being rewarded with people leaning towards you. Because
you know, there's a phrase I use often which is
people treat your home the way you treat it and
people treat you the way you treat yourself to a
certain degree, and it's a quality that I recognize hugely
with Sydney Poitier, for instance. You know, there's no way
(39:50):
he's achieving what he achieved when he did, considering the
levels of racial discrimination that were going on in this
country at that time, if he's not in a disposition
that defies expectation, which has people kind of.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
Going, Okay, I guess we'll give.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
It to you, you know. And I think there is
a degree of that the way you move through the world.
I mean, it's a generalization to a certain extent, but
it's my lived experience, so it is specific to me
that I know, those years living in Nigeria were formative
(40:28):
for me. And I will say this, it's something that
you know, you have to be careful about from a
generalization standpoint, but slavery in this country, one of the
things that it set out to do is to destroy
the the the agency, the power, the self esteem of
(40:56):
black people. It didn't succeed in doing those things, not totally,
but it certainly stimied those things. And that is an
active It is an active.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
Means of engendering supremacy. You know.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
The way you achieve supremacy is for everything you do
to suggest that you are supreme over the person you
want to subjugate, and so you have that disposition of supremacy,
and then you subject the person you're oppressing to feeling
lesser than and that's the way you gain control. And
(41:39):
we see it even till this very day. The things
that are being attacked currently in this culture is all
about a certain section of society feeling like it has
power and supremacy over another.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
I don't care how you reframe it, how you try
to excuse it. That's what it is.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
Well, you can't reframe it or excuse it, because it's
simply true when you see a decorated general get fired
and replaced with an alcoholic from Fox News, right, Like,
what are we talking about?
Speaker 2 (42:15):
Right?
Speaker 1 (42:15):
Just what are we talking about?
Speaker 3 (42:17):
But there's very very clever language that gets used to
excuse those things. There are very clever qualifiers, and systems
of oppression are becoming more and more sophisticated. Yes, and
you see that with slavery migrating into the prison industrial complex,
(42:39):
you know, so it's it's it's different phraseology you're you're
you're not a slave, You're a sharecropper, you know, And
and these are these are all things to be mindful of,
because the central thought is the same.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
And when you really think about the fact that for
all of it requires a both and right, like a
willingness to hold dialectics, that many things can be true
at the same time. And I think about what for
me is sort of the seesaw of America, which is
(43:17):
some of the most exquisite ideals of any nation in
the world that we have often failed to achieve, and
some of the most horrific acts done in the building
of a nation with really incredible ideals, but that sought
them out at the time it was founded for very
few people, certainly not you and certainly not me. And
(43:39):
when you see the kind of cyclical violence of white supremacy,
you see the cyclical violence of patriarchy. It is not
lost on me that when you talk about what a
different world your son is experiencing, what a different world
I experience as a woman and a woman who is
a CEO of my life and all of the things,
(44:01):
the difference in my life to my mother's, the extreme
difference in my life to my grandmother's my grandmother who
was born in a stone farmhouse in the middle of
nowhere in Italy with no running water and no electricity.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
And I think about how so much of what fueled
the building of this country that was hidden, the history
they didn't want to teach, and they really don't want
to teach now, is that we used bodies as fuel,
largely black bodies. And by happenstance, the harm done by
(44:38):
the people doing that was also done to the women
who look like me, who unfortunately have often cozied up
to white supremacist patriarchy because they think it will protect them.
And I'm like, girly pops, it has nothing for you either.
Speaker 2 (44:52):
Run.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
And what's fascinating to me is the backlash we see,
the fact that you were no longer allowed to discriminate
against the best applicant, if that applicant were a woman,
if that applicant were a black man, and so on
down the line. No one wants to talk about the
fact that the greatest recipients of DEI in America are
(45:14):
white women. It is not lost on me that just
in a generation where we have certainly not achieved equity
to four hundred years of a power structure for white men,
but where we've gotten to pretty decent places as other groups.
The backlash is so crazy. They want to eradicate diverse
(45:38):
classes in colleges, They want to take away women's access
to birth control and healthcare.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
And I just.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
I wonder to what end? Because I also look around
and I know they don't have it the hardest. But
I also know white men in this try are killing
themselves at higher rates than anybody else. So I'm like, well,
clearly this isn't working for you either. I don't know.
(46:11):
I don't know where. I don't really know where we
go or what we do necessarily when the backlash to
even the illusion of more equitable power systems is so intense.
Do you feel like you are on the outside of
(46:31):
it as a man of color, but also on the
inside of it as as a man as a patriarch?
Do you do you kind of have to figure out
how to hold all of these truths at the same time,
Because you strike me. I know we don't know each
other that well, but I do feel like we did
the energetic, like sparkly thing, and now we're connected.
Speaker 2 (46:51):
In that way.
Speaker 1 (46:52):
Like you strike me as a as a non toxic man.
Yes you are. You are I think a wonderful father,
a wonderful husband. You exemplify if a really what appears
to be healthy, kind patriarchal energy. I'm like, that's a
(47:12):
good dad.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
That's my kind of guy.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
So like, how do you I don't know, how do
you wrestle with all of this stuff? And also how
do you leave all this stuff at the door and
just find joy in the way you talk about with
your show? How do you do it all?
Speaker 3 (47:29):
It's challenging. I don't feel on the periphery of it.
I feel very much in the center of it. But
the thing I know to be true is that foundations
are incredibly important. Foundations dictate what the building is, how
strong it's going to be, how integracy is going to be,
(47:51):
and whether anyone cares to admit it or not. The
foundation the building blocks of America pretty gnarly. You stole
the country and then stole the people to build that country,
and that's foundational, regardless of the tenets and the philosophies
(48:19):
that came after that that, some of which are incredibly
beautiful around equity, around how to build a society, but
If the foundation is so compromised, if in the soil
is murder and pillage and rape and all of these
(48:41):
things that are also foundational to the creation of this country,
whether people care to admit it or not, which again
is why the history is being obfuscated, then the only
way to offset that truth is repentance is to go, oh,
I didn't commit those things, but my forefathers, who we
(49:05):
are lionizing in this country and celebrating and therefore suggesting
that they were above reproach, did perpetuate these things.
Speaker 2 (49:16):
And then there are.
Speaker 3 (49:17):
Descendants of people who are alive today who were the
victims of what those forefathers perpetuated. At some point there
has to be some kind of acceptance of the fact
that what we all get to enjoy is built on
an incredibly questionable foundation. And the only way you can
(49:38):
move forward from that in a healthy way is the
acceptance of that, the repentance on behalf of your forefathers
for that, in order that you can have a chance
to move forward better than that was.
Speaker 4 (49:56):
And now, for our sponsors this week on Dear Chelsea
with me Chelsea Handler, Sophia Bush's here, tell me how
that feels to be a hot considered a hot lesbian.
Speaker 1 (50:07):
Quite an honor. You know what's funny when you're actually
more fluid with your sexuality, the swing goes from nobody
gives a shit who you're sleeping with too. You better
identify exactly who you are so we can figure out
what name to call you. And it's like, is nobody
been paying attention to like all the hot girls I've
been kissing on camera? Hi, I've always been here.
Speaker 4 (50:27):
Listen to Dear Chelsea on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (50:37):
Listen, these are the times, right, you've had like the
most hopeful and happy sections of the discussion, and we
have to have the heavy and the real because that's life. Yeah,
as you try to balance all of it for yourself
and you mentioned earlier to be in joy in the
work that you make, you have it with your family?
(51:01):
How do you do it? How do you balance? Are
there practices you have not just as you know David
the performer, but as David the man? What are your
practices for keeping your sort of sphere space joyful?
Speaker 2 (51:21):
Well? I count my blessings and you know a.
Speaker 3 (51:28):
Huge part of that is my wife my kids, my health,
I get to do for work that which I love
and would probably do for free.
Speaker 2 (51:42):
Don't tell Apple and never never for free.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
A raise in season two.
Speaker 3 (51:51):
But it's that, it's that it's counting my blessings. My
faith is a huge component of my life personally. But
you know, my wife and I have a two week rule.
Were never apart for more than two weeks. So yeah,
so no matter where I am in the world, like
we we recently, so she had to be so she
(52:13):
had to be in Hawaii for a retreat, and then
I was going to Katar to set up a film,
and then I had to be in London. And this
meant that we were going to go over by fourteen hours. No,
fourteen days. No, we weren't going to go over. We
(52:35):
were going to be apart for fourteen days, in like
six hours or something like that.
Speaker 2 (52:40):
And it was the.
Speaker 3 (52:41):
Assistance phones were blown up, right, Okay, so I am
going to I have to take her to the airport
at this time that you have to change my flight
because we can't. Oh no, we're still an hour over.
We're still at an hour no, because we went over
by eleven hours once and I can't.
Speaker 2 (53:01):
I can't do it.
Speaker 3 (53:02):
It's for me like a once I commit to something,
that is it. Yeah, And you know, I've been married
for twenty six years now.
Speaker 1 (53:11):
So it's working.
Speaker 2 (53:12):
It's working. But honestly it is.
Speaker 3 (53:17):
It can sound a little cheesy, it can even sound
like it's work, but love is something you work out.
Speaker 2 (53:23):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (53:24):
And when I talk about counting your blessings, it's going
I have someone I want to be back in proximity.
Speaker 2 (53:32):
Of no, like yeah, no more than you're really in
trouble after like two days.
Speaker 3 (53:38):
So so the point being, and we worked it out
and we were well within the fourteen days at the.
Speaker 1 (53:45):
End of the day.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
But it's it's it's the small things actually, you know.
Speaker 1 (53:49):
But what that says to me is also it's promise
is made, promises kept. Yes, love is something you work at.
Speaker 2 (53:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:56):
And I think if you wake up in your life
and you realize you quote have love.
Speaker 2 (54:01):
Yeah, No one's working at yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:05):
Then you don't have love. Then you have a business
partner or a roommate or whatever. And so even the
fact that after twenty six years you two are like
hold on six hours too many for me, I'm tickled
by that because what it is to me, is that
the promise is so important. Yeah, it's not just the
rhythm you keep, it's that you commit to keeping the
(54:29):
rhythm correct.
Speaker 3 (54:30):
It's beautiful, right, Thank you, thank you? And you know,
and I have kids who are healthy and who love
mommy and daddy and like being in proximity of them.
You know, I've seen what I've been around, great wealth,
I've been around great fame. I've been around the things
that people truly seem to value or aspire to. I'm
(54:53):
telling you right now for anyone listening who thinks that
there is something out there in those realms that is
going to transcend. If you have someone you like curling
up on a couch with, and you have food in
your stomach, and you are happy and keen to be
(55:14):
in proximity of people who maybe your kids, maybe your spouse,
maybe your family, maybe your friend, and the notion of
not having to talk to each other and yet be
comfortable around each other is yours. You have heaven on earth, Yeah,
because you're not having to work to be safe, to
(55:40):
feel loved, to love, to touch to you know.
Speaker 2 (55:46):
All of those things. Nothing.
Speaker 3 (55:47):
There is no place. I've been to so many places
in the world. There's no place I feel more like
I'm in a heaven on Earth situation than curled up
on my couch with my kids, with my wife, maybe
watching movie, maybe we're just all laughing at each other,
whatever it is. That's as good as it gets here
on earth. Guys. That's as good as it gets. And
(56:09):
it's not to do with the couch. It's not to
do with the movie. It's to do with the people. Yeah,
and that you want to be in proximity of those people.
And so those are the blessings I count amongst other things,
and that's where my joy comes from. And the reality
is those things are finite. You know, I've lost both
my parents. I know that these things are finite, and
(56:35):
so every day you have them, they are to be
embraced with a veracity that is just you know, every
ounce of energy within you.
Speaker 1 (56:44):
It's beautiful and it's a lovely reminder to focus on
the right things. Yeah, it seems that you're so practiced
at it. That's a muscle that you work. That gratitude.
Speaker 2 (57:00):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (57:01):
Does it Does it feel like something that will always
be your work in progress? Or is or is that
something else? Is it a project? An idea.
Speaker 3 (57:10):
It will always be a work in progress because you
don't know what's going to come along to upend it.
You know, when I lost my mom, that was that
took my peace for years. You know, she had a
brain aneurysm and she was in a vegetative state for
three years. And I'm the eldest son, and I felt
(57:32):
the need to sort of look after my brothers and
my dad, and I didn't do grieving particularly healthily. I
sort of tried to push it away, and so I
am still a work in progress when it comes to that,
just just forgiving myself for things that I probably don't
(57:56):
need to forgive myself for in relation to.
Speaker 2 (57:58):
My Oh oh gosh, maybe.
Speaker 3 (58:01):
I should have been there to make sure she was
taking the high blood pressure medicine or all the things
you know that that are tied to love. You know,
how much you miss someone is relative to how much
you loved them, So that's kind of healthy. But also
if you're if you're crippled by that feeling, that's unhealthy.
(58:22):
So that's that's a working progress. All of it is
a work in progress. I think that's the gift of life.
I think you know you're given this project which is
your life. And you know you're I'm never going to
be the totality of the actor I aspire to be,
or the father I aspire to be, or the husband
that I aspire to be, or the human being, because
(58:42):
fallibility is what is by definition, what makes you a
human being. And so but the journey of that is
it was where the excitement lies and the days where
oh gosh, I think I was a pretty good father today,
and then most days, oh gosh, I didn't think I
was a very good dad today, you know. So I
to be alive is to be in a work in
(59:07):
progress circumstance, and I like being alive. So being being,
being a work in progress is indicative that we're still here.
Speaker 2 (59:19):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (59:20):
Thank you for sharing all of your wisdom and heart
with us again today.
Speaker 2 (59:24):
Thank you. I always love speaking to me too,
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Bethany Joy Lenz
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Robert Buckley
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