September 3, 2025 • 61 mins
Pulitzer Prize–winning journalist Jonathan Capehart opens up about his extraordinary life and his latest book, “Yet Here I Am: Lessons from a Black Man’s Search for Home.” He takes us from the tension of straddling two very different worlds—urban New Jersey and rural North Carolina—to the complexities of race, queerness, and identity in America’s shifting landscape.
Plus, Jonathan explains why he feels obligated to share his opinions, even when others in his industry are blasted for doing the same.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hello,
whip smarties, do we have a smart one for you today?
(00:20):
On this episode of Work in Progress, I am sitting
down with a Pulitzer Prize winning writer, editor, and TV host.
Today's guest is none other than Jonathan k Part, who
is here to recount powerful stories, certainly from his career,
but also from his brand new book. The book is
called Yet Here I Am Lessons from a Black Man's
(00:42):
Search for Home, and it is the most magnificent grouping
of tales from his life about embracing identities, picking battles,
seizing opportunity, and finding his voice. And he manages to
do something which he must only be possible because of
what an exceptional journalist he is, which is tell the
(01:05):
most unique and raw and personal story and somehow set
his milestones against not only his personal history, but our
history is a country. And in the most beautiful way,
I came to admire Jonathan even more, and I came
to feel even more passionate about this experiment we're in here, guys,
(01:29):
the American experiment, our great democracy. From really profound musings
on what it was like to shuttle back and forth
between New Jersey and rural North Carolina, to contemplating the
complexities of race and identity and queerness as they all
shifted around him. Jonathan really brings us into his lessons
(01:53):
on learning to bridge two worlds and finding his place.
There are hilarious stories about how he's got his first
internship with The Today Show and incredibly heartwarming tales about
his love for his family and his journey to his
own self discovery. Let's sit down with Jonathan K.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Part.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
I get to sit across from so many fascinating people
like yourself, and I think about the long list of
resume items, accolades, accomplishments for you a Pulitzer Prize. I
like to rewind because people know you and they know
what you do. But I'm curious about and it really
(02:48):
does feel relevant for your book, I suppose. Especially I'm
curious about your childhood, and more so, if you and
I got to go back in time together right now
and hang out with you at eight or nine years old,
would you recognize so many things about the man you
are today and that little boy?
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Huh. That's a great question.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
I think I would, Sophia, simply because you know when
you're a little kid, You're naive about the world in
a lot of ways. You see things in black and
white because that's what you're taught. You know, this is good,
this is bad, this is right, this is wrong. And
so I think I took that sort of learning and
(03:36):
teaching and upbringing and brought it to my job, which
is a journalist, yeah, and an opinion journalist. At that
where we are, it is our job to not just report,
but then to say.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
What's right, what's wrong, what's good, what's bad, who's good,
who's bad?
Speaker 3 (04:00):
And so I think younger me would recognize present day, older,
older me. But I think what younger me would find
fascinating is how I took younger me's dream and turned
(04:25):
it into reality, knowing, knowing full well that younger me
had these dreams but no roadmap at all for how
to reach them right.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Well, and being a young boy who grew up in
New Jersey, you know, shout out to the fam. You
write in your books so beautifully about these summers that
you would go and spend with your grandmother. Can you
tell our friends at home a little bit about that,
about how your life prior to you, knowing how you
(05:01):
were going to make your dreams come true. How your
life sort of existed between two spaces.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
So, you know, during the school year, I you know,
lived in New Jersey, first in Newark, New Jersey, where
I was born, and then North Plainfield and then has Let,
New Jersey shout out Mommouth County. But then in the
summers until I was twelve, I spent them in North Carolina,
(05:28):
in rural eastern North Carolina with my maternal grandparents. And
in the north I went to Catholic school, particularly the
first through fourth grade, and then in those summers with
my grandmother, I would go out witnessing with my grandmother.
My grandmother was a Jehovah's witness, so you know, still
(05:51):
a sect of Christianity, but way different than the Catholic
school at Saint Rose of Lima. So spending those summers
in North Carolina, you know, in hindsight, you know, with
the eyes of a fifty something year old man, I
now realize we're foundational to how I view, how I
(06:17):
view the world, how I view raised, how I view
to a certain extent religion.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Typically by being in.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
You know, a Jim Crow relic of a small town,
just by going witnessing with my grandmother to houses of
almost always African Americans, and then not realizing until I
was writing the book, well, why was that? Well, because
Grandma was witnessing basically in the backyard of the Nat
(06:47):
Turner Rebellion that you know, sent shock waves in fear
through white people, not just in that area where Grandma was,
but across the country. The ripple efex of that, you know,
we're still dealing with today. So that's the sort of
split existence that you were referring to, and what my
(07:12):
early childhood childhood summers were like.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
It gave me such perspective on you and your life,
and reading about those really formative years for you also
made me very self reflective, because I remember at twenty
one moving to Wilmington, North Carolina, and really wanting to
get to know the area and driving around and being
(07:40):
so taken aback as I got further and further out
from city centers and into more rural parts of North
Carolina in two thousand and three, because I grew up
in the heart of Los Angeles in a very diverse community,
and my dad is an immigrant, and my mother's mother
(08:01):
was an immigrant, and my mom's whole family, as we've
you know, bonded over a little all from around New
Jersey and New York. You know, Newark is incredibly diverse,
and New York is incredibly diverse. And I got to
a place in our country where I realized for the
(08:23):
first time that a lot of the history I'd studied
was still immediately evident in my present geography. And I
just hadn't experienced that in these big metropolitan city centers.
And it is quite surreal knowing what I immediately understood
(08:47):
about America then, and then reading you talk about being
in these communities, understanding the dignity people deserved, learning about humility,
and also you write about the fact they you're the
first in your generation to never have worked picking cotton.
(09:08):
Our history, I mean, it's it's right here, and it's
still present, and it I just think you've done this
gorgeous job reminding people of that through your story. Were
those conversations you were having with your family or that
at that time, or did some of those heavier historical
(09:29):
to present day topics wait until you were a little older.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
Those heavy topics waited until I was writing to this book.
It's not we weren't discussing these things, you know, during
those summers, or even as I got older, it was.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
More when I was writing.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
When I was when I was writing what originally it
was called the Down South Chapter, I was remember how
after my grandmother's funeral, we were all in the you know,
the funeral limousines, riding back from the Kingdom Hall service
(10:15):
to the Baptist Church graveyard where the family is buried.
And as we drove on these country roads, listening to
my aunt, my mom and my aunts and uncles who
were in the car reminisce about picking cotton in the
particular field, in a particular field, or just fields in general,
(10:39):
and talking about how you know, oh you remember, you know,
how you know we had to get up so early
in the morning and we picked cotton, and you know,
sometimes we would add water to the bag and to
make it heavier because we got paid more of that way.
Or how they were able to keep the young guest
(11:00):
of the of the siblings on Annie and Uncle Lynnwood,
how they were able to from time to time keep
them from having to go out into the.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Fields to work.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
And as I write in the book, and as you
point out, you know, it wasn't until I was writing that,
I realized that my cousin Rita and I were the
first generation in our family that didn't have to do that.
We didn't have to when we went down for the summer.
We didn't have to go into the field and pick
(11:31):
cotton or tobacco or soybeans for money. We did go
into the fields and pick butter beans and so and
and things like that, but that was for food. You know,
we go and pick and then sit and snap peas
and stuff like that, but that was just you know,
for food. That what our relatives did was for was
(11:57):
money for the family. And you know, you put your
finger on it, and when you went to Wilmington, North Carolina,
that the stuff that you had read.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
About was just so immediate.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
And I keep trying to remind people, and that's why
I put that line in there about generation, because history
isn't history for a lot of people, it's lived experience, yes,
within their memory of having experience these things. And so
you know it, you know, it's the reporter in me
(12:30):
that wanted to not just tell my story but ground
it and root it into you know, you've read about this, well, hey,
let me tell you right here, this is how my
story fits into that larger story.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Well, and what you've hoped to do is contextualize and
personalize it. You know, when when people try to distance
us from history, something that feels really important for me
to point out out, especially in the backdrop of us
now seeing you know, the National Guard deployed to my
home city and gross violation of the constitution. I may
(13:10):
say when I think about the last time a president
how to deploy the National Guard to protect black students
being integrated into schools. I have to remind people who
ask me why I care about this stuff so much.
Ruby Bridgers is younger than my mother, right, you know
(13:31):
that could be my mother. She is someone's mother. It's
not this happened oh, hundreds of years ago, and we
get to pretend it's in a chapter of a book.
It's directly in our rear view mirror. This is our lifetime.
This is people's lived experience and something I appreciate so
(13:53):
much as a journalism nerd who as you know, I'm
going to tell the people at home when that when
I first met I was deeply uncool. I totally geeked
out on you, and you were so sweet, and I
couldn't get over the fact that you offered to exchange
information with me.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
I was like, what do I do?
Speaker 1 (14:15):
And then I remember weeks later, our friend who introduced
us said, have you texted him yet? And I go,
what am I going to text Jonathan K Parton? She goes,
I don't know, hi, And so I just have to say, like,
you know, it's so lovely to have you on the podcast,
and we've obviously spent more time together since and hopefully
I'm less weird. But as a as a person who
(14:38):
believes so emotionally, really in the sanctity and importance of journalism,
your book manages to be such a beautiful memoir. But
you you tell your personal story in a way that
makes all of our history feel so close, and it's
a really important reminder and you've just done something gorgeous.
(15:01):
So thank you for all of it.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Oh, thank you, Sophia for that.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
You know, when I sat down, it was in twenty
seventeen that I sat down to write the first words
that have now become this book. And I did it
as a way of escaping for a little bit. Trump won,
just for a few days, you know, I just decided
I had these stories in my head from summers down
(15:26):
South that had been rumbling up there for years, and
I thought, okay, days a day, I'm going to sit
down now, I'm just going to write the stories.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
And I did it over a long weekend.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Where did you start?
Speaker 2 (15:37):
I started with.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
I think probably it started with going witnessing with Grandma,
just starting to you know, write that down, what that
was like. And you know, for me, it was telling.
It was just getting those stories out. And I wasn't
sure if there was a book there or anything.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
I just wanted to get these stories out.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
And I sent them to some really good friends and
I sent them to specifically to Jory Reid, April Ryan,
and Tamperin Hall and I'm just like, hey, here, would
you mind reading this? Tell me what you think? And
(16:23):
they all wrote back, keep going, And April Ryan not
only said keep going, but she said you've got to
tell your story. There is a book here, keep going,
keep writing. And so I, you know, it took a
long time, but I kept I kept writing, and as
I wrote, as I was writing my story again, the
(16:44):
reporter brain kicked in to say, hey, you were born
in July nineteen sixty seven. Whoa the sixty four Civil
Rights Act was enacted exactly.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Three years before you, three years before you were born.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Sixty five Voting Rights ACKed was was voted. Johnson signed
it less than two years before you were born. And
so you were born into this quote unquote, not post
civil rights America, but in America where I and my
(17:25):
cousin first generation that didn't have to pick cotton. But
I was also part of the the the generation, first
generation of black kids to live.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
In a country where the words of the Constitution.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
Applied to all of us equally, and that what that meant.
So when I'm writing about, you know, being the only
black kid in predominantly white schools or one of a few,
or you know, as I go through my.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Career, of course you gotta.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
I'm trying to ground it in Hey, as I'm living
this life, watching The Brady Bunch and the Today Show,
this was also happening in the background, so that it
informs you why I'm thinking this way and writing this way.
And you know, I do think and I'm glad. I'm
glad you're validating my approach, Sophia, because there were points
(18:18):
when I thought, oh, I'm getting too heavy into the
history I'm getting too heavy in the news, and instead,
I think by doing that, I've made not only made
my story accessible just in terms of me, but also
places it in ways that people think, oh, oh, now
(18:40):
I understand that makes sense, that makes more sense.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
And now a word from our sponsors who make the
show possible. I think about how frustrating it can be
for me as a woman to always have to remind
(19:07):
people of what women are up against. For me, as
a queer person, you know, to have whether it was
in allyship for so long or in full identity, talk
about no, you do treat queer people differently in this country,
And I think about that for you. You know, you, as
a black man who was born in nineteen sixty seven,
(19:29):
who has seen this family history, who has seen America's history,
who's watching this backsliding of democracy. You carry your people,
and I imagine sometimes you don't want to have to
always talk about what it's like to be a black man,
or what it's like to be a gay man. How
do you how do you figure out that balance? Because
(19:55):
you talk in the book about sometimes you get accused
of being too black, sometimes you get accused of being
out black enough. It's like, if you're not the rich
white guy, you're either something or nothing all the time.
And I'm really curious about how that experience is something
you have navigated for yourself as a public figure who
(20:18):
belongs to multiple, you know, marginalized groups.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
Well, you know, I think it goes back to from
you know, my earliest memories of you know, I write
in the book how I viewed myself as as a
result of that history I just talked about, I viewed
myself as an ambassador to the race. And so given
the time that we were in. Also, I was the
(20:45):
only child of a widow, and so when you're an
only child, all you're doing, especially at that age, is
trying to make friends. You're doing everything you can to
make friends. And so you put all that together and
I have this ambassadorial hat. So I take on this
(21:06):
this weight.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Willingly.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
Almost everyone else it's thrust upon them, this weight of
being the only representing and a lot of people resent it,
and I totally get it. But for me, it was
I'm the ambassador. So let's go, let's go make friends,
Let's try to make these bonds of understanding. Let me
(21:34):
show them since I'm probably the only live black person
they have ever met.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Let's try to dispel some myths, let them get to
know me.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
And you know, and that's mostly in the in the
black realm, In the gay realm, it's a completely it's
a different thing. But you know, it was a it
was a job that I took on willingly. And I understand,
you know, people viewing it as a weight. I certainly
(22:06):
view it as a weight, maybe even a burden. But
again it was one that I took on willingly. As
I write in the book, though it took me too
long to understand and to appreciate and realize that not
everybody is as into my ambassador role.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
As I am.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
And that was a tough That was a tough thing
for me to contend with, and I had to contend
with it while writing the book because what I wanted
above all else, you know, in addition to telling my story,
I wanted to be honest. I wanted to be introspective.
(22:51):
I wanted to be raw and vulnerable and revealing. And
so when I write about how I learned how to
be black in white spaces where I learned that you
could be I could be too black, not black enough,
or in some instances, folks didn't want me to be
black at all. The same thing can be said, you know,
(23:13):
you know, being gay, there there were folks are like,
you're too gay, you're not gay enough.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Well do you have to talk about it?
Speaker 3 (23:21):
And in this job, you know, I've been on an
editorial board nine years at the New York Daily News,
fifteen at the Washington Post.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
That's a quarter century. And when you are an editorial writer.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
You are, whether you want to acknowledge it or not,
you are an ambassador for whatever communities you belong to,
whether you want to acknowledge them or not. When you
come to the table, because we're discussing all sorts of issues,
and when you are the only black person at the table,
or you're the only queer person at the table, or
(24:00):
you're the only black queer person at the table, whether
you want to or not, some situation is going to
happen where you are going to have to say, my
lived experience says this. And I don't care what white
paper you've read, what studies you've read, what the reporting says.
(24:22):
I can tell you from my reporting, plus my own,
my lived experience, this is the way this is going
to be viewed or how it is viewed or how
it was viewed.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
And so that's that is an ambassadorial role.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
That is one that you know, whether I wanted to
or not, And as I've said multiple times, I did.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
That was part of the job. That weight, that burden
was part of the job.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
And so you know, in this job, it's also and
I recognize and incredible privilege to be able to sit
at those tables and not be the voice of Black
America or the voice of Queer America, but to be
the voice of each community at the at that particular table.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
You talk about how you knew so young that you
wanted to do this, you know, being being at a
at a family member's retirement party. Uh, and saying I
want to be a journalist. Where did that come from?
And can you tell the folks at home a little
bit about that story about how you got your first internship.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
So so I was the family tattle tale. I told everybody.
I told everybody's business. There was nothing I If I
heard something, I would repeat it. And you know, and
I write in the book about how I, you know,
in incredible fashion, repeated something not even repeated, delivered some
(26:03):
news that was not welcome. And so fast forward, my
uncle McKinley Branch, who worked at NBC as an electrician
at thirty Rock, said to me, you know I'm going
to work.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
You should turn on the Today Show.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
I'm going to try to get in front of the
camera because they're doing work on the plaza and I'm
going to try to wave. So I turn on the
Today Show. I'm watching looking for Uncle McKinley. Instead, I'm
watching this show where these people told other people's business.
(26:42):
That was the job. And so I was fascinated by
this job. And the more I watched, the more I
got into what these people were doing, what they were reporting,
where they were reporting from. And so I was, you know,
a huge nerd. I had maps all over my walls
(27:05):
at home, and so when I watched the news, I
would spin around and look on my map of the United.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
States or my map the world or.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
Particular country is to see where the action was happening.
So I was a total complete news nerd. I had
my interview, my college interview for Carlton. They did them,
did some in New York at the Hilton, and when
it was over, I called my uncle McKinley at thirty
Rock and said, hey, I'm just up the street. Can
(27:35):
I come visit? He says, great, So I go visit.
He says, you're just in time. I have work to
do in the nightly news office again news nerd. I'm thinking,
I'm going to meet the greats. I'm gonna be Brokaw,
I'm going to meet Chancellor. I'm going to meet utterly
all these people. Then get there and there's no one around,
(27:56):
absolutely no one around except this one woman sitting out.
And I worked up the car. My uncle had me
sit on this sofa facing this you know woman while
he did the work in the office. And I worked
up the courage to talk to her. And she told
me her name is and Scanfualitarian and she was she
(28:17):
worked on nightly. And you see a little kid sitting
in front of you. You ask, well, what do you
want to be when you grow up? And I said, well,
I want to be Moscow correspondent for NBC News. And
then after that, I'm trying to decide whether I want
to be White House correspondent or go to the London Bureau.
(28:38):
If I go to the London Bureau, then I definitely
want to then go to the White House, and then
after that, I want to come to New York and
be anchor of the Today Show, and I don't.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
I can only imagine the look on my.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
Face if I had heard that. But my uncle comes
back and he says, Okay, it's time to go. I
thanked her for answering my questions, and then she said
to me, wait a minute, and then she opened the drawer,
pulled out an NBC notepad, wrote down the name Kay Bradley,
her phone number, and then with a flourish rips off
(29:15):
the paper and says, here, get yourself an internship on
the Today Show.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
That moment is.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
Like step number two or number three in the journey
that leads us to talking right now.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
That started my career.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Yeah, it's so incredible. I just love it. I love
that you had a full life itinerary ready for her.
And she was like, damn, this kid actually knows what
he's talking about. We should probably hire him. It's so amazing.
Speaker 3 (29:50):
The more I think about it, the more I realize,
and I talked to other people.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
That I was insane. Yeah, ninety nine nine.
Speaker 3 (30:01):
Nine percent of the world does not have an idea
of what they want to do and how they want
to do it or where they want to do it.
And it took me a long time to understand that
that's not how the world works, and that's not how
people work. So that's another thing that I had to
realize as I was writing this, being mindful and knowing
(30:25):
the fact that I was crazy.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
I love it. You just knew, And now a word
from our sponsors. A calling is different than a job.
And it's so clear that this has always been a
(30:48):
calling for you, and I would wager that it's part
of why your presence in journalism feels so powerful. I
think it's why you're so good at gathering people to listen,
because they can feel how much you care. Hm.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
You know, it's interesting that you use the word calling
because I've started using that word, particularly after we, you know,
made our way through Trump won. You know, people started
coming up to me during the first Trump administration and
saying things to me that I had only heard said
(31:29):
to members of the military, and that was thank you
for your service. And the first time it happened, it
took my breath away because no, I'm not I'm just
a journalist. I'm not a member of the military. And
it just kept happening more and more, and then I
(31:50):
began to understand that, oh, I get what people mean.
You know, we're the only profession that is specifically protected
in the Constitution. Job is to inform the citizen read
so that they can uphold the democracy.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
But the calling.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Aspect of it really came into shape for me as
I realize that to your point, this isn't a job.
I like doing what I'm doing because I like to
I like to talk to people. I like to highlight
(32:30):
their stories. I like to highlight, you know, specific people
or specific issues, shine a light on people or issues
where no light is being shown, and to just have
people know and understand. And I tell young people who ask,
you know, is this profession I should get into? I
(32:52):
say absolutely, but you have to feel it here. I
can't get into this profession if you're going is to
be famous or to be rich. That might be a byproduct,
but you know, don't.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Count on that.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
You get into this profession because there are stories you
want to tell. Yes, people, you want to highlight communities,
you want to highlight issues. You want to highlight that
you truly care about and that you either have expertise
or you're gaining the expertise, and you want to use
use the skill that comes with journalism, use the platform
(33:33):
that comes with journalism to get your work out there.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Yeah, you do it because it's what gets you out
of bed in the morning. You jump out, You fly out.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
Of bed to go to a job that doesn't feel
like a job but pays you barely the minimum. And
when you leave the office, or when that story hits
online or in the paper or over the airwayes are
on YouTube. However, people are getting getting their news and
(34:04):
it's out there that pride, that sense of accomplishment that
you get after doing something like that and then hearing
from people how they're reacting to your work. That's why
folks should be going into journalism. That's why it's a
that's why it's a calling.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Yeah, I understand that, you know, it's it's not technically
my profession. But studying journalism in college alongside theater and
falling down just the interest rabbit hole of political science,
I can see when I look back, Oh, I was
(34:46):
always destined to use the platform from my day job
for my calling to organize community. And you know it's
not lost on me that that was very hard for
a lot of people in Trump won, people who you know,
(35:10):
do it for passion like me, or for passion and
career like you. A lot of people got very nervous
to continue speaking up. And it really strikes me in
this term too, watching the president of the United States
(35:30):
go after a free press, you know, watching watching Terry
Moran get fired from ABC for expressing his personal opinion
that someone in government is harming people who live in
this country, which I do not believe is incorrect. I believe,
(35:50):
I mean his opinion. Obviously, I believe what's happening is
incorrect and wildly awful. But how do you make sense
of that? And how do you stay brave?
Speaker 2 (36:02):
I'm still that naive kid who believes in right and wrong,
good or bad too, And I happen.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
To be in a position where and have a career
where my job is to you know, be able to
say what I think is right or wrong, good or bad.
And so that's what keeps me grounded, That's what keeps
me focused, you know, despite all the glitter bombs he's
throwing up in the air to distract us, and even
(36:32):
though those those glitter bombs are you know, can be
you know, rhetorically lethal in the sense that you know,
to distract us from the feud with Elon Musk. There
are National Guard troops in Los Angeles over the objections
of the governor.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
But because of that naive day, I still can.
Speaker 3 (36:55):
Keep my eye on the goal or or on what
the true what the true issue is. And so that's
how I'm able to just stay focused and stay clear
and stay clear headed.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
I'm also, you know, I learned in Trump.
Speaker 3 (37:12):
One to keep my imagination wide open, because if I
can imagine it, it could possibly happen, and so nothing.
I might be shocked by some things, but I most
definitely will not be surprised by most things. And you know,
when it comes to Tarry Moran, there's a distinction that
(37:37):
I think folks need to understand, and there's a Terry
Moran and I are both journalists, but we're in different
camps of journalism. I'm in the opinion camp. I can
say all the things he said in that tweet.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
I could say them.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
I might get in trouble, but not in the trouble
that he got in.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Terry, the other hand, is.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
A straight news reporter, meaning his job is to go
in as he did interview the President of the United States,
not call balls and strikes, just here's the news, straight
up news. I remember my co host Eugene Daniels, he
showed me the tweet before we went on air, and
(38:29):
I remember reading and going, Oh my god, what's whoa
that is out there for Terry Moran, For a straight
news journalist to do that. Not that he wrote anything
that I thought was you know, I found objectionable in
terms of opinion, but where he got into trouble was
(38:51):
expressing his opinion about people. His job is to cover objectively.
So and during our show Eugene said, oh, looks like
he deleted the tweet. I understood why. Then he got suspended.
I understood why. And now that he you know, he's
(39:15):
been fired or separated again, I understand why from the
from the network's perspective. But I guarantee you we will
see Terry Moran back doing doing something in our profession
in some way, shape or form, because he is an
(39:39):
excellent journalist. Yeah, a superb journalist, and it's unfortunate that
it's unfortunate that he is at a minum right now,
not with us in the profession, but I would be
shocked if he if he's not back somewhere.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Thank you for that perspective. Appreciate it. It's I think
as a you know, constituent, as a citizen who yes,
is a news nerd. But again, I don't I don't
get paid for doing any version of you know, my
own coverage. It's hard to watch something like that happen
(40:22):
to a journalist of that caliber. And then you know,
watch someone like a Tucker Carlson spend years lying to
his audience, spouting Kremlin propaganda and you know, calling the
union folks in the entertainment industry the elites while he
(40:42):
was making like what was it, forty six million a
year or something insane, Like, I've never known a person
who's made that in a lifetime. What are you talking about?
So it's that I doubt most of us have, you know,
it's it's hard to feel like they're there is such
a high standard on the side that actually believes in
(41:05):
the constitution and in the democratic principles of the country
versus the side that claims they love the laws but
violate them every day. How is that something you navigate
as a journalist, because you know, you've got to be
out in these streets with folks from CNN to MSNBC
(41:27):
to Fox News. So like, how how do you try
to not only maintain your humanity in the way you
move through the world, but with that kind of naivete
if you will, do you really try to apply that
to others?
Speaker 2 (41:48):
Like?
Speaker 1 (41:49):
How do you do it? Because I I don't know
if I could be nice to everybody in your profession
if I was in your profession, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (41:56):
Right? Yeah? Oh, I hear you on I hear you
on that.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
Okay, yeah, No, It's not easy, But I will say
this again.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
I view my job to be a truth teller.
Speaker 3 (42:15):
My job is to whether I'm writing in a column
or I'm on my show on the weekend, my job
is to tell the truth. But my number one constituent
or constituency is my audience. The way the media has fractured,
(42:36):
now they're not just reading particular newspapers or magazines or
watching particular channels and television shows. Folks are gravitating to
specific individual journalists. And as a result, why are they
going to these specific journalists because they trust them? And
(43:00):
for me, I know, and I've been at this for
thirty years, and so I built up. I would like
to think some credibility with my audience and coming to
terms with that and understanding that also means I have
to have a level of respect for my audience that
(43:23):
I think they have for me, which means respecting their intelligence. Yeah,
in addition to respecting their intelligence, giving them the rhetorical
and factual information and ammunition they need when talking to friends, colleagues,
(43:43):
relatives who might be on the other side of the
ideological divide, and you know they're not either telling the
truth or they're spouting things that they've heard from other
outlets which you know are not true.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (44:03):
I tried one.
Speaker 3 (44:05):
Time watching Fox News Channel. This was back in twenty sixteen,
and my husband said, you know, we should be We
really should be watching Fox from time to time just
to hear what they're saying and so and so. I
finally said, okay, fine, fine, fine, let's sit down, let's watch.
Speaker 2 (44:26):
I don't even remember who it was.
Speaker 3 (44:28):
I do remember how long I lasted, not even thirty minutes,
maybe even less. Why because each segment they did, Because
you know, it's a news show. I'm on top of
the news. I've done my own reporting. I knew they
were lying. Ye I knew they were shading the truth.
(44:50):
How did everything every segment they did miraculously found its way.
Speaker 2 (44:55):
Back to Hillary Clinton again? This is sixteen.
Speaker 3 (45:00):
So I got so tired of yelling at the TV.
I just said to my husband.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
I'm out of here.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
Yeah, I got to be done.
Speaker 2 (45:06):
I'm done.
Speaker 3 (45:07):
I can't I can't do it. And what makes that
so troubling isn't so much that I couldn't take watching
Fox News. It's that Fox News is still then and
still today the number one cable channel in the country. Yeah,
(45:30):
by multiples. And so I'm sitting there as a person
who believes that two plus two equals four, knows that
two plus two equals four, and then having to walk
away from a channel where more than half the country
is watching, where they're being fed a daily diet at
night during the opinion shows, a daily diet of two
(45:54):
plus two equals five. And anyone who tells you that
it is four is a day to the nation. And
that is what's so what's so troubling about just one
piece of what's so troubling about where we are as
a country. But also, you know, my profession, the journalism
(46:17):
profession under enormous enormous pressure both from you know, culturally,
what I was just talking about a president who continues
to say that we are the enemy of the people,
while at the same time being in a profession that
has been going through it when it comes to technology, yes,
(46:39):
and trying to you know, losing audience and trying to
figure out how do we get the audience back, and
then trying to figure out, Okay, they're not going to
come back in the ways we want them to, how
do we reach how do we go where they're going? Yes,
So that put all of that together, and you've got
a profession that is un enormous, enormous strain.
Speaker 1 (47:04):
Yeah, it's scary as a you know, a citizen again,
just one of the concerned ones looking from the outside.
I love that you use the two plus two as
for analogy. It's one of my favorites.
Speaker 3 (47:19):
You know.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
It really relates for me to the fact that there
are no facts versus alternative facts. There are just facts.
Science is science. Two plus two does equal four. That
is settled, period, end of story. And I am very
grateful for those of you who care enough about the
(47:42):
nation to try to lead it. Honestly, I think about
how exposed you are when you are a public figure
like yourself. And one of the things that touched me
so much about the book is it it really feels
like you just decided to go oh there, like you
leaned all the way in knowing what it's like to
(48:05):
have your life looked at on this big, great stage.
How did you invite more of that in?
Speaker 3 (48:11):
That was easy because back in nineteen ninety nine two thousand,
I read Catherine Graham's autobiography Personal History. At the time,
Kay Graham was the most powerful woman in journalism as
the publisher of The Washington Post. She was one of
(48:31):
the most powerful women in the country as a result
of that. And here comes this book that she wrote
where she is open, vulnerable, raw, honest about her insecurities,
about her fraught relationship with her mother, about her her
(48:54):
questioning whether she could hold her family together after her
husband died, whether she was good enough to lead the
Washington Post. I thought, this is the This is amazing
that this powerful person would put themselves out there for
all of us to see, like really see. You could
(49:17):
understand her having a book out there half its size
and saying nothing. And yet she decided to tell her story.
Fast forward twenty years and Charles Blow at the time
was a columnist for the New York Times writes his
memoir or Fire Shut Up in My Bones Again, Raw, honest, introspective,
(49:43):
and it helped me understand why there was so much
passion behind his columns for the New York Times. And
I thought those were such indelible, indelible books to me
that when I started writing, I thought, I have to
if I'm writing a book I have, and especially my
(50:04):
own story, I have to be as open and raw
and introspective and honest as they were. And so look,
anyone who has read my columns for the Daily News
going way back, or even the Washington Post, they are
used to me injecting myself into the columns as.
Speaker 2 (50:26):
A way of bringing the reader along.
Speaker 3 (50:29):
When Trayvon Martin was killed, for a lot of people,
it was an academic exercise. But then I wrote a
column that said, you know, when I was a kid,
my mother told me never to run in public, and
to never run with anything in my hands in public.
And you know, all the things that people then learned
was the so called the talk that black parents have
(50:52):
with their black kids.
Speaker 2 (50:54):
And so for a lot of people. For a lot
of my.
Speaker 3 (50:59):
White audience members who were reading me, it was their entree.
I was their entree, ambassador again, their entree into what
it means to be black.
Speaker 2 (51:12):
I was their sir.
Speaker 3 (51:14):
And so how could after writing like that for a
quarter century just about how could I not then do
that on steroids in the memoir? I have no regrets,
And in fact, what I love is hearing from all
sorts of people who read my story and see bits
(51:38):
of themselves, either of themselves in my story, in me
or my experiences.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
Yeah, I feel that as a reader of this, and
so I get very excited for, you know, the rest
of the audience of this show and folks out in
the world to get to read it too. And now
a word from our wonderful sponsors. I'm curious in specific
(52:17):
because these are the identities you get to speak to
us from. I know how touched I've felt by a
lot of it, and I wonder if a young queer
black reader picks up this book, what you most want
them to know or feel.
Speaker 3 (52:35):
I would want them to know and feel that anything
is possible, and that by the time they get to
the end of the book that they will close it
and be more hopeful after having read it than they
first picked it up. Especially you've read the book so
(52:55):
you know how it closes. And then I close on
a what might seem like a weirdly hopeful note, but
I use again, I use history to ground that hope
in something. And it's so incredible that you asked the
question the way you did that if a young black
queer person were to see the book. Yesterday, I was
(53:16):
at Harvard. Henry Lewis Gates, the Great Henry Lewis Gates
did a book talk with me at the Hutchin Center
there at Harvard, and we went to Q and A,
and there was a young black woman off to my
side here who asked a question. And she said that
(53:39):
she and her friend were in Boston and had heard
about this event and just decided on a whim to
come over to Cambridge to.
Speaker 2 (53:50):
Be at the book talk.
Speaker 3 (53:51):
And she said she was so moved by listening to
the story. And that's when she came out and said
that she's a young queer, black queer woman who's trying
to navigate this world and how do you keep hopeful
and while at the same time being, you know, trying
(54:13):
to safeguard your safety and your space.
Speaker 2 (54:17):
And it was just.
Speaker 3 (54:18):
Such a I don't even remember what I said to her,
but it was such a wonderful conversation that we ended
up having, and she got emotional, she started to tear
up when she was asking her question. I answered, and
you know, there are those moments when you're talking to
someone and you're looking at them and you just know.
Speaker 2 (54:44):
That they could use a hug.
Speaker 3 (54:46):
And I just jumped up and I said, can I
give you a hug? And it was just it was
one of those moments where I understood how important I
hope this book will be to her once she reads it.
(55:08):
She got a copy. I autographed it for her, and
I hope it gives her a roadmap.
Speaker 2 (55:16):
For the question that she that she was asking. More broadly.
Speaker 3 (55:22):
The night before, I did an event in Springfield, Massachusetts
at the Basketball Hall of Fame.
Speaker 2 (55:28):
Is where my that was on a basketball court in
this museum, this museum to basketball, and wonderful conversation.
Speaker 3 (55:40):
There's Q and A and the penultimate person because all
these adults and then who's there but this little, this
adorable black girl, nine years old. Her name's Amora, and
she tells me that you know, she has written a
(56:01):
book that is in the Library of Congress, and she
wanted to know how do you deal with writer's block?
And it was just it was so adorable, Sophia.
Speaker 1 (56:14):
That well, what did you tell her?
Speaker 2 (56:17):
Oh? I told her, I listened to music. You know
what I'm writing.
Speaker 3 (56:23):
That's the music I put on to sort of hit
up the emotion that I need or the speed that
I need to write. And she said she listens to
music too, and then she went away, and then someone said, well, wait,
what's the name of her book?
Speaker 2 (56:39):
She comes back, I call.
Speaker 3 (56:41):
Her back and I think the name of her book
was Queen Aunt and it's the children's book about how
this aunt is a leader and leading the other ants.
And she said it's part of a series of books
that she's going to do of aunt leaders. And I said, oh, so,
(57:05):
what's the next one? She said, Butterfly, what's the next one?
Oh no, what's the next one? B a be, what's
the next one? Butterfly, what's the next one? I don't
know what's the next one, Grasshopper, I said, I'm asking because.
Speaker 2 (57:19):
I know you know what you want your series to be.
Speaker 3 (57:23):
And we've wrapped up the conversation, and as I walked
back to the stage and sat in my chair, I
got emotional.
Speaker 2 (57:31):
I had to give myself a moment.
Speaker 3 (57:34):
Because this moment that we're in is so fraught, it's
so scary, it's concerning. We don't know what's going to
happen from day to day. And yet that nine year
old girl, I said to everyone, she what we just
saw right now, she is the reason why I have hope. Yeah,
(57:57):
And so you know, for that nine year old who's,
you know, kind of kind of like me at that age,
she knows exactly where she wants to go and what
she's doing. To that black queer woman the next day
at Harvard, who is trying to navigate those two different
(58:18):
conversations to different people. But I left more hopeful having
talked to both of them than I did when we
started the conversation. And so, you know, how could I
how could I not be hopeful for the future despite
what's going on.
Speaker 1 (58:39):
Yeah, I think that's something so important to click into
that we have to remember what we're fighting for, not
just what we're fighting against. Yes, yes we have to
fight fascism, but we're fighting for the babies. We're fighting
for the books to be written. We're fighting for, you know,
(59:01):
a healthy community, and I think hope is so valuable
because of that.
Speaker 2 (59:08):
Hope is fuel.
Speaker 1 (59:11):
Yeah, when you look forward, for you, whether it's personal
or professional, what feels like you're work in progress right now?
Speaker 2 (59:20):
Oh? My work in progress? Huh? Well that it's deeply
personal in that.
Speaker 3 (59:28):
Here I was this ten year old kid who had
a dream and no roadmap. There's nobody in my family
who and still to this day, no one in my
family who is a writer, an author, a journalist in television.
The closest was my uncle McKinley, and he was an
electrician at a television company. So I'm the only one
(59:52):
in my family who has done any of the things
that I'm doing right now. As a result, I'm now
at an age where I'm twice the age, more than
twice the age of my father when he died. He died,
as you know, when I was four months old, and
so I'm getting to that. I'm at that point, Sophia,
(01:00:16):
where what do you do when you have not only
reached your your dreams, you've exceeded them.
Speaker 2 (01:00:29):
What's next?
Speaker 3 (01:00:31):
That's the that is the thing that is most compelling
to be right now, what is the next thing, especially
when I'm so I'm still young. Yeah, and there's more,
there's more to do, so that that is the thing,
(01:00:53):
that's the big what's next?
Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
Gosh? How do you how do you write yourself a
permission slip to do something beyond your wildest dreams?
Speaker 2 (01:01:04):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (01:01:05):
That's a really exciting place to be mm hmm. Congratulations
to you, my friend.
Speaker 2 (01:01:12):
Ah, thank you, Sophia, thank you, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:01:14):
On the life, on the book, on all of it,
and thank you for joining us today.
Speaker 2 (01:01:18):
Ah, thank you for having me. This is fun.
Hi, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hello,
whip smarties, do we have a smart one for you today?
(00:20):
On this episode of Work in Progress, I am sitting
down with a Pulitzer Prize winning writer, editor, and TV host.
Today's guest is none other than Jonathan k Part, who
is here to recount powerful stories, certainly from his career,
but also from his brand new book. The book is
called Yet Here I Am Lessons from a Black Man's
(00:42):
Search for Home, and it is the most magnificent grouping
of tales from his life about embracing identities, picking battles,
seizing opportunity, and finding his voice. And he manages to
do something which he must only be possible because of
what an exceptional journalist he is, which is tell the
(01:05):
most unique and raw and personal story and somehow set
his milestones against not only his personal history, but our
history is a country. And in the most beautiful way,
I came to admire Jonathan even more, and I came
to feel even more passionate about this experiment we're in here, guys,
(01:29):
the American experiment, our great democracy. From really profound musings
on what it was like to shuttle back and forth
between New Jersey and rural North Carolina, to contemplating the
complexities of race and identity and queerness as they all
shifted around him. Jonathan really brings us into his lessons
(01:53):
on learning to bridge two worlds and finding his place.
There are hilarious stories about how he's got his first
internship with The Today Show and incredibly heartwarming tales about
his love for his family and his journey to his
own self discovery. Let's sit down with Jonathan K.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Part.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
I get to sit across from so many fascinating people
like yourself, and I think about the long list of
resume items, accolades, accomplishments for you a Pulitzer Prize. I
like to rewind because people know you and they know
what you do. But I'm curious about and it really
(02:48):
does feel relevant for your book, I suppose. Especially I'm
curious about your childhood, and more so, if you and
I got to go back in time together right now
and hang out with you at eight or nine years old,
would you recognize so many things about the man you
are today and that little boy?
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Huh. That's a great question.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
I think I would, Sophia, simply because you know when
you're a little kid, You're naive about the world in
a lot of ways. You see things in black and
white because that's what you're taught. You know, this is good,
this is bad, this is right, this is wrong. And
so I think I took that sort of learning and
(03:36):
teaching and upbringing and brought it to my job, which
is a journalist, yeah, and an opinion journalist. At that
where we are, it is our job to not just report,
but then to say.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
What's right, what's wrong, what's good, what's bad, who's good,
who's bad?
Speaker 3 (04:00):
And so I think younger me would recognize present day, older,
older me. But I think what younger me would find
fascinating is how I took younger me's dream and turned
(04:25):
it into reality, knowing, knowing full well that younger me
had these dreams but no roadmap at all for how
to reach them right.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Well, and being a young boy who grew up in
New Jersey, you know, shout out to the fam. You
write in your books so beautifully about these summers that
you would go and spend with your grandmother. Can you
tell our friends at home a little bit about that,
about how your life prior to you, knowing how you
(05:01):
were going to make your dreams come true. How your
life sort of existed between two spaces.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
So, you know, during the school year, I you know,
lived in New Jersey, first in Newark, New Jersey, where
I was born, and then North Plainfield and then has Let,
New Jersey shout out Mommouth County. But then in the
summers until I was twelve, I spent them in North Carolina,
(05:28):
in rural eastern North Carolina with my maternal grandparents. And
in the north I went to Catholic school, particularly the
first through fourth grade, and then in those summers with
my grandmother, I would go out witnessing with my grandmother.
My grandmother was a Jehovah's witness, so you know, still
(05:51):
a sect of Christianity, but way different than the Catholic
school at Saint Rose of Lima. So spending those summers
in North Carolina, you know, in hindsight, you know, with
the eyes of a fifty something year old man, I
now realize we're foundational to how I view, how I
(06:17):
view the world, how I view raised, how I view
to a certain extent religion.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Typically by being in.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
You know, a Jim Crow relic of a small town,
just by going witnessing with my grandmother to houses of
almost always African Americans, and then not realizing until I
was writing the book, well, why was that? Well, because
Grandma was witnessing basically in the backyard of the Nat
(06:47):
Turner Rebellion that you know, sent shock waves in fear
through white people, not just in that area where Grandma was,
but across the country. The ripple efex of that, you know,
we're still dealing with today. So that's the sort of
split existence that you were referring to, and what my
(07:12):
early childhood childhood summers were like.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
It gave me such perspective on you and your life,
and reading about those really formative years for you also
made me very self reflective, because I remember at twenty
one moving to Wilmington, North Carolina, and really wanting to
get to know the area and driving around and being
(07:40):
so taken aback as I got further and further out
from city centers and into more rural parts of North
Carolina in two thousand and three, because I grew up
in the heart of Los Angeles in a very diverse community,
and my dad is an immigrant, and my mother's mother
(08:01):
was an immigrant, and my mom's whole family, as we've
you know, bonded over a little all from around New
Jersey and New York. You know, Newark is incredibly diverse,
and New York is incredibly diverse. And I got to
a place in our country where I realized for the
(08:23):
first time that a lot of the history I'd studied
was still immediately evident in my present geography. And I
just hadn't experienced that in these big metropolitan city centers.
And it is quite surreal knowing what I immediately understood
(08:47):
about America then, and then reading you talk about being
in these communities, understanding the dignity people deserved, learning about humility,
and also you write about the fact they you're the
first in your generation to never have worked picking cotton.
(09:08):
Our history, I mean, it's it's right here, and it's
still present, and it I just think you've done this
gorgeous job reminding people of that through your story. Were
those conversations you were having with your family or that
at that time, or did some of those heavier historical
(09:29):
to present day topics wait until you were a little older.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
Those heavy topics waited until I was writing to this book.
It's not we weren't discussing these things, you know, during
those summers, or even as I got older, it was.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
More when I was writing.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
When I was when I was writing what originally it
was called the Down South Chapter, I was remember how
after my grandmother's funeral, we were all in the you know,
the funeral limousines, riding back from the Kingdom Hall service
(10:15):
to the Baptist Church graveyard where the family is buried.
And as we drove on these country roads, listening to
my aunt, my mom and my aunts and uncles who
were in the car reminisce about picking cotton in the
particular field, in a particular field, or just fields in general,
(10:39):
and talking about how you know, oh you remember, you know,
how you know we had to get up so early
in the morning and we picked cotton, and you know,
sometimes we would add water to the bag and to
make it heavier because we got paid more of that way.
Or how they were able to keep the young guest
(11:00):
of the of the siblings on Annie and Uncle Lynnwood,
how they were able to from time to time keep
them from having to go out into the.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Fields to work.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
And as I write in the book, and as you
point out, you know, it wasn't until I was writing that,
I realized that my cousin Rita and I were the
first generation in our family that didn't have to do that.
We didn't have to when we went down for the summer.
We didn't have to go into the field and pick
(11:31):
cotton or tobacco or soybeans for money. We did go
into the fields and pick butter beans and so and
and things like that, but that was for food. You know,
we go and pick and then sit and snap peas
and stuff like that, but that was just you know,
for food. That what our relatives did was for was
(11:57):
money for the family. And you know, you put your
finger on it, and when you went to Wilmington, North Carolina,
that the stuff that you had read.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
About was just so immediate.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
And I keep trying to remind people, and that's why
I put that line in there about generation, because history
isn't history for a lot of people, it's lived experience, yes,
within their memory of having experience these things. And so
you know it, you know, it's the reporter in me
(12:30):
that wanted to not just tell my story but ground
it and root it into you know, you've read about this, well, hey,
let me tell you right here, this is how my
story fits into that larger story.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Well, and what you've hoped to do is contextualize and
personalize it. You know, when when people try to distance
us from history, something that feels really important for me
to point out out, especially in the backdrop of us
now seeing you know, the National Guard deployed to my
home city and gross violation of the constitution. I may
(13:10):
say when I think about the last time a president
how to deploy the National Guard to protect black students
being integrated into schools. I have to remind people who
ask me why I care about this stuff so much.
Ruby Bridgers is younger than my mother, right, you know
(13:31):
that could be my mother. She is someone's mother. It's
not this happened oh, hundreds of years ago, and we
get to pretend it's in a chapter of a book.
It's directly in our rear view mirror. This is our lifetime.
This is people's lived experience and something I appreciate so
(13:53):
much as a journalism nerd who as you know, I'm
going to tell the people at home when that when
I first met I was deeply uncool. I totally geeked
out on you, and you were so sweet, and I
couldn't get over the fact that you offered to exchange
information with me.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
I was like, what do I do?
Speaker 1 (14:15):
And then I remember weeks later, our friend who introduced
us said, have you texted him yet? And I go,
what am I going to text Jonathan K Parton? She goes,
I don't know, hi, And so I just have to say, like,
you know, it's so lovely to have you on the podcast,
and we've obviously spent more time together since and hopefully
I'm less weird. But as a as a person who
(14:38):
believes so emotionally, really in the sanctity and importance of journalism,
your book manages to be such a beautiful memoir. But
you you tell your personal story in a way that
makes all of our history feel so close, and it's
a really important reminder and you've just done something gorgeous.
(15:01):
So thank you for all of it.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Oh, thank you, Sophia for that.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
You know, when I sat down, it was in twenty
seventeen that I sat down to write the first words
that have now become this book. And I did it
as a way of escaping for a little bit. Trump won,
just for a few days, you know, I just decided
I had these stories in my head from summers down
(15:26):
South that had been rumbling up there for years, and
I thought, okay, days a day, I'm going to sit
down now, I'm just going to write the stories.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
And I did it over a long weekend.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Where did you start?
Speaker 2 (15:37):
I started with.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
I think probably it started with going witnessing with Grandma,
just starting to you know, write that down, what that
was like. And you know, for me, it was telling.
It was just getting those stories out. And I wasn't
sure if there was a book there or anything.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
I just wanted to get these stories out.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
And I sent them to some really good friends and
I sent them to specifically to Jory Reid, April Ryan,
and Tamperin Hall and I'm just like, hey, here, would
you mind reading this? Tell me what you think? And
(16:23):
they all wrote back, keep going, And April Ryan not
only said keep going, but she said you've got to
tell your story. There is a book here, keep going,
keep writing. And so I, you know, it took a
long time, but I kept I kept writing, and as
I wrote, as I was writing my story again, the
(16:44):
reporter brain kicked in to say, hey, you were born
in July nineteen sixty seven. Whoa the sixty four Civil
Rights Act was enacted exactly.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Three years before you, three years before you were born.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Sixty five Voting Rights ACKed was was voted. Johnson signed
it less than two years before you were born. And
so you were born into this quote unquote, not post
civil rights America, but in America where I and my
(17:25):
cousin first generation that didn't have to pick cotton. But
I was also part of the the the generation, first
generation of black kids to live.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
In a country where the words of the Constitution.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
Applied to all of us equally, and that what that meant.
So when I'm writing about, you know, being the only
black kid in predominantly white schools or one of a few,
or you know, as I go through my.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Career, of course you gotta.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
I'm trying to ground it in Hey, as I'm living
this life, watching The Brady Bunch and the Today Show,
this was also happening in the background, so that it
informs you why I'm thinking this way and writing this way.
And you know, I do think and I'm glad. I'm
glad you're validating my approach, Sophia, because there were points
(18:18):
when I thought, oh, I'm getting too heavy into the
history I'm getting too heavy in the news, and instead,
I think by doing that, I've made not only made
my story accessible just in terms of me, but also
places it in ways that people think, oh, oh, now
(18:40):
I understand that makes sense, that makes more sense.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
And now a word from our sponsors who make the
show possible. I think about how frustrating it can be
for me as a woman to always have to remind
(19:07):
people of what women are up against. For me, as
a queer person, you know, to have whether it was
in allyship for so long or in full identity, talk
about no, you do treat queer people differently in this country,
And I think about that for you. You know, you, as
a black man who was born in nineteen sixty seven,
(19:29):
who has seen this family history, who has seen America's history,
who's watching this backsliding of democracy. You carry your people,
and I imagine sometimes you don't want to have to
always talk about what it's like to be a black man,
or what it's like to be a gay man. How
do you how do you figure out that balance? Because
(19:55):
you talk in the book about sometimes you get accused
of being too black, sometimes you get accused of being
out black enough. It's like, if you're not the rich
white guy, you're either something or nothing all the time.
And I'm really curious about how that experience is something
you have navigated for yourself as a public figure who
(20:18):
belongs to multiple, you know, marginalized groups.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
Well, you know, I think it goes back to from
you know, my earliest memories of you know, I write
in the book how I viewed myself as as a
result of that history I just talked about, I viewed
myself as an ambassador to the race. And so given
the time that we were in. Also, I was the
(20:45):
only child of a widow, and so when you're an
only child, all you're doing, especially at that age, is
trying to make friends. You're doing everything you can to
make friends. And so you put all that together and
I have this ambassadorial hat. So I take on this
(21:06):
this weight.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Willingly.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
Almost everyone else it's thrust upon them, this weight of
being the only representing and a lot of people resent it,
and I totally get it. But for me, it was
I'm the ambassador. So let's go, let's go make friends,
Let's try to make these bonds of understanding. Let me
(21:34):
show them since I'm probably the only live black person
they have ever met.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Let's try to dispel some myths, let them get to
know me.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
And you know, and that's mostly in the in the
black realm, In the gay realm, it's a completely it's
a different thing. But you know, it was a it
was a job that I took on willingly. And I understand,
you know, people viewing it as a weight. I certainly
(22:06):
view it as a weight, maybe even a burden. But
again it was one that I took on willingly. As
I write in the book, though it took me too
long to understand and to appreciate and realize that not
everybody is as into my ambassador role.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
As I am.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
And that was a tough That was a tough thing
for me to contend with, and I had to contend
with it while writing the book because what I wanted
above all else, you know, in addition to telling my story,
I wanted to be honest. I wanted to be introspective.
(22:51):
I wanted to be raw and vulnerable and revealing. And
so when I write about how I learned how to
be black in white spaces where I learned that you
could be I could be too black, not black enough,
or in some instances, folks didn't want me to be
black at all. The same thing can be said, you know,
(23:13):
you know, being gay, there there were folks are like,
you're too gay, you're not gay enough.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Well do you have to talk about it?
Speaker 3 (23:21):
And in this job, you know, I've been on an
editorial board nine years at the New York Daily News,
fifteen at the Washington Post.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
That's a quarter century. And when you are an editorial writer.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
You are, whether you want to acknowledge it or not,
you are an ambassador for whatever communities you belong to,
whether you want to acknowledge them or not. When you
come to the table, because we're discussing all sorts of issues,
and when you are the only black person at the table,
or you're the only queer person at the table, or
(24:00):
you're the only black queer person at the table, whether
you want to or not, some situation is going to
happen where you are going to have to say, my
lived experience says this. And I don't care what white
paper you've read, what studies you've read, what the reporting says.
(24:22):
I can tell you from my reporting, plus my own,
my lived experience, this is the way this is going
to be viewed or how it is viewed or how
it was viewed.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
And so that's that is an ambassadorial role.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
That is one that you know, whether I wanted to
or not, And as I've said multiple times, I did.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
That was part of the job. That weight, that burden
was part of the job.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
And so you know, in this job, it's also and
I recognize and incredible privilege to be able to sit
at those tables and not be the voice of Black
America or the voice of Queer America, but to be
the voice of each community at the at that particular table.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
You talk about how you knew so young that you
wanted to do this, you know, being being at a
at a family member's retirement party. Uh, and saying I
want to be a journalist. Where did that come from?
And can you tell the folks at home a little
bit about that story about how you got your first internship.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
So so I was the family tattle tale. I told everybody.
I told everybody's business. There was nothing I If I
heard something, I would repeat it. And you know, and
I write in the book about how I, you know,
in incredible fashion, repeated something not even repeated, delivered some
(26:03):
news that was not welcome. And so fast forward, my
uncle McKinley Branch, who worked at NBC as an electrician
at thirty Rock, said to me, you know I'm going
to work.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
You should turn on the Today Show.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
I'm going to try to get in front of the
camera because they're doing work on the plaza and I'm
going to try to wave. So I turn on the
Today Show. I'm watching looking for Uncle McKinley. Instead, I'm
watching this show where these people told other people's business.
(26:42):
That was the job. And so I was fascinated by
this job. And the more I watched, the more I
got into what these people were doing, what they were reporting,
where they were reporting from. And so I was, you know,
a huge nerd. I had maps all over my walls
(27:05):
at home, and so when I watched the news, I
would spin around and look on my map of the United.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
States or my map the world or.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
Particular country is to see where the action was happening.
So I was a total complete news nerd. I had
my interview, my college interview for Carlton. They did them,
did some in New York at the Hilton, and when
it was over, I called my uncle McKinley at thirty
Rock and said, hey, I'm just up the street. Can
(27:35):
I come visit? He says, great, So I go visit.
He says, you're just in time. I have work to
do in the nightly news office again news nerd. I'm thinking,
I'm going to meet the greats. I'm gonna be Brokaw,
I'm going to meet Chancellor. I'm going to meet utterly
all these people. Then get there and there's no one around,
(27:56):
absolutely no one around except this one woman sitting out.
And I worked up the car. My uncle had me
sit on this sofa facing this you know woman while
he did the work in the office. And I worked
up the courage to talk to her. And she told
me her name is and Scanfualitarian and she was she
(28:17):
worked on nightly. And you see a little kid sitting
in front of you. You ask, well, what do you
want to be when you grow up? And I said, well,
I want to be Moscow correspondent for NBC News. And
then after that, I'm trying to decide whether I want
to be White House correspondent or go to the London Bureau.
(28:38):
If I go to the London Bureau, then I definitely
want to then go to the White House, and then
after that, I want to come to New York and
be anchor of the Today Show, and I don't.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
I can only imagine the look on my.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
Face if I had heard that. But my uncle comes
back and he says, Okay, it's time to go. I
thanked her for answering my questions, and then she said
to me, wait a minute, and then she opened the drawer,
pulled out an NBC notepad, wrote down the name Kay Bradley,
her phone number, and then with a flourish rips off
(29:15):
the paper and says, here, get yourself an internship on
the Today Show.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
That moment is.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
Like step number two or number three in the journey
that leads us to talking right now.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
That started my career.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Yeah, it's so incredible. I just love it. I love
that you had a full life itinerary ready for her.
And she was like, damn, this kid actually knows what
he's talking about. We should probably hire him. It's so amazing.
Speaker 3 (29:50):
The more I think about it, the more I realize,
and I talked to other people.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
That I was insane. Yeah, ninety nine nine.
Speaker 3 (30:01):
Nine percent of the world does not have an idea
of what they want to do and how they want
to do it or where they want to do it.
And it took me a long time to understand that
that's not how the world works, and that's not how
people work. So that's another thing that I had to
realize as I was writing this, being mindful and knowing
(30:25):
the fact that I was crazy.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
I love it. You just knew, And now a word
from our sponsors. A calling is different than a job.
And it's so clear that this has always been a
(30:48):
calling for you, and I would wager that it's part
of why your presence in journalism feels so powerful. I
think it's why you're so good at gathering people to listen,
because they can feel how much you care. Hm.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
You know, it's interesting that you use the word calling
because I've started using that word, particularly after we, you know,
made our way through Trump won. You know, people started
coming up to me during the first Trump administration and
saying things to me that I had only heard said
(31:29):
to members of the military, and that was thank you
for your service. And the first time it happened, it
took my breath away because no, I'm not I'm just
a journalist. I'm not a member of the military. And
it just kept happening more and more, and then I
(31:50):
began to understand that, oh, I get what people mean.
You know, we're the only profession that is specifically protected
in the Constitution. Job is to inform the citizen read
so that they can uphold the democracy.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
But the calling.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Aspect of it really came into shape for me as
I realize that to your point, this isn't a job.
I like doing what I'm doing because I like to
I like to talk to people. I like to highlight
(32:30):
their stories. I like to highlight, you know, specific people
or specific issues, shine a light on people or issues
where no light is being shown, and to just have
people know and understand. And I tell young people who ask,
you know, is this profession I should get into? I
(32:52):
say absolutely, but you have to feel it here. I
can't get into this profession if you're going is to
be famous or to be rich. That might be a byproduct,
but you know, don't.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Count on that.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
You get into this profession because there are stories you
want to tell. Yes, people, you want to highlight communities,
you want to highlight issues. You want to highlight that
you truly care about and that you either have expertise
or you're gaining the expertise, and you want to use
use the skill that comes with journalism, use the platform
(33:33):
that comes with journalism to get your work out there.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Yeah, you do it because it's what gets you out
of bed in the morning. You jump out, You fly out.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
Of bed to go to a job that doesn't feel
like a job but pays you barely the minimum. And
when you leave the office, or when that story hits
online or in the paper or over the airwayes are
on YouTube. However, people are getting getting their news and
(34:04):
it's out there that pride, that sense of accomplishment that
you get after doing something like that and then hearing
from people how they're reacting to your work. That's why
folks should be going into journalism. That's why it's a
that's why it's a calling.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Yeah, I understand that, you know, it's it's not technically
my profession. But studying journalism in college alongside theater and
falling down just the interest rabbit hole of political science,
I can see when I look back, Oh, I was
(34:46):
always destined to use the platform from my day job
for my calling to organize community. And you know it's
not lost on me that that was very hard for
a lot of people in Trump won, people who you know,
(35:10):
do it for passion like me, or for passion and
career like you. A lot of people got very nervous
to continue speaking up. And it really strikes me in
this term too, watching the president of the United States
(35:30):
go after a free press, you know, watching watching Terry
Moran get fired from ABC for expressing his personal opinion
that someone in government is harming people who live in
this country, which I do not believe is incorrect. I believe,
(35:50):
I mean his opinion. Obviously, I believe what's happening is
incorrect and wildly awful. But how do you make sense
of that? And how do you stay brave?
Speaker 2 (36:02):
I'm still that naive kid who believes in right and wrong,
good or bad too, And I happen.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
To be in a position where and have a career
where my job is to you know, be able to
say what I think is right or wrong, good or bad.
And so that's what keeps me grounded, That's what keeps
me focused, you know, despite all the glitter bombs he's
throwing up in the air to distract us, and even
(36:32):
though those those glitter bombs are you know, can be
you know, rhetorically lethal in the sense that you know,
to distract us from the feud with Elon Musk. There
are National Guard troops in Los Angeles over the objections
of the governor.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
But because of that naive day, I still can.
Speaker 3 (36:55):
Keep my eye on the goal or or on what
the true what the true issue is. And so that's
how I'm able to just stay focused and stay clear
and stay clear headed.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
I'm also, you know, I learned in Trump.
Speaker 3 (37:12):
One to keep my imagination wide open, because if I
can imagine it, it could possibly happen, and so nothing.
I might be shocked by some things, but I most
definitely will not be surprised by most things. And you know,
when it comes to Tarry Moran, there's a distinction that
(37:37):
I think folks need to understand, and there's a Terry
Moran and I are both journalists, but we're in different
camps of journalism. I'm in the opinion camp. I can
say all the things he said in that tweet.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
I could say them.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
I might get in trouble, but not in the trouble
that he got in.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Terry, the other hand, is.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
A straight news reporter, meaning his job is to go
in as he did interview the President of the United States,
not call balls and strikes, just here's the news, straight
up news. I remember my co host Eugene Daniels, he
showed me the tweet before we went on air, and
(38:29):
I remember reading and going, Oh my god, what's whoa
that is out there for Terry Moran, For a straight
news journalist to do that. Not that he wrote anything
that I thought was you know, I found objectionable in
terms of opinion, but where he got into trouble was
(38:51):
expressing his opinion about people. His job is to cover objectively.
So and during our show Eugene said, oh, looks like
he deleted the tweet. I understood why. Then he got suspended.
I understood why. And now that he you know, he's
(39:15):
been fired or separated again, I understand why from the
from the network's perspective. But I guarantee you we will
see Terry Moran back doing doing something in our profession
in some way, shape or form, because he is an
(39:39):
excellent journalist. Yeah, a superb journalist, and it's unfortunate that
it's unfortunate that he is at a minum right now,
not with us in the profession, but I would be
shocked if he if he's not back somewhere.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Thank you for that perspective. Appreciate it. It's I think
as a you know, constituent, as a citizen who yes,
is a news nerd. But again, I don't I don't
get paid for doing any version of you know, my
own coverage. It's hard to watch something like that happen
(40:22):
to a journalist of that caliber. And then you know,
watch someone like a Tucker Carlson spend years lying to
his audience, spouting Kremlin propaganda and you know, calling the
union folks in the entertainment industry the elites while he
(40:42):
was making like what was it, forty six million a
year or something insane, Like, I've never known a person
who's made that in a lifetime. What are you talking about?
So it's that I doubt most of us have, you know,
it's it's hard to feel like they're there is such
a high standard on the side that actually believes in
(41:05):
the constitution and in the democratic principles of the country
versus the side that claims they love the laws but
violate them every day. How is that something you navigate
as a journalist, because you know, you've got to be
out in these streets with folks from CNN to MSNBC
(41:27):
to Fox News. So like, how how do you try
to not only maintain your humanity in the way you
move through the world, but with that kind of naivete
if you will, do you really try to apply that
to others?
Speaker 2 (41:48):
Like?
Speaker 1 (41:49):
How do you do it? Because I I don't know
if I could be nice to everybody in your profession
if I was in your profession, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (41:56):
Right? Yeah? Oh, I hear you on I hear you
on that.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
Okay, yeah, No, It's not easy, But I will say
this again.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
I view my job to be a truth teller.
Speaker 3 (42:15):
My job is to whether I'm writing in a column
or I'm on my show on the weekend, my job
is to tell the truth. But my number one constituent
or constituency is my audience. The way the media has fractured,
(42:36):
now they're not just reading particular newspapers or magazines or
watching particular channels and television shows. Folks are gravitating to
specific individual journalists. And as a result, why are they
going to these specific journalists because they trust them? And
(43:00):
for me, I know, and I've been at this for
thirty years, and so I built up. I would like
to think some credibility with my audience and coming to
terms with that and understanding that also means I have
to have a level of respect for my audience that
(43:23):
I think they have for me, which means respecting their intelligence. Yeah,
in addition to respecting their intelligence, giving them the rhetorical
and factual information and ammunition they need when talking to friends, colleagues,
(43:43):
relatives who might be on the other side of the
ideological divide, and you know they're not either telling the
truth or they're spouting things that they've heard from other
outlets which you know are not true.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (44:03):
I tried one.
Speaker 3 (44:05):
Time watching Fox News Channel. This was back in twenty sixteen,
and my husband said, you know, we should be We
really should be watching Fox from time to time just
to hear what they're saying and so and so. I
finally said, okay, fine, fine, fine, let's sit down, let's watch.
Speaker 2 (44:26):
I don't even remember who it was.
Speaker 3 (44:28):
I do remember how long I lasted, not even thirty minutes,
maybe even less. Why because each segment they did, Because
you know, it's a news show. I'm on top of
the news. I've done my own reporting. I knew they
were lying. Ye I knew they were shading the truth.
(44:50):
How did everything every segment they did miraculously found its way.
Speaker 2 (44:55):
Back to Hillary Clinton again? This is sixteen.
Speaker 3 (45:00):
So I got so tired of yelling at the TV.
I just said to my husband.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
I'm out of here.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
Yeah, I got to be done.
Speaker 2 (45:06):
I'm done.
Speaker 3 (45:07):
I can't I can't do it. And what makes that
so troubling isn't so much that I couldn't take watching
Fox News. It's that Fox News is still then and
still today the number one cable channel in the country. Yeah,
(45:30):
by multiples. And so I'm sitting there as a person
who believes that two plus two equals four, knows that
two plus two equals four, and then having to walk
away from a channel where more than half the country
is watching, where they're being fed a daily diet at
night during the opinion shows, a daily diet of two
(45:54):
plus two equals five. And anyone who tells you that
it is four is a day to the nation. And
that is what's so what's so troubling about just one
piece of what's so troubling about where we are as
a country. But also, you know, my profession, the journalism
(46:17):
profession under enormous enormous pressure both from you know, culturally,
what I was just talking about a president who continues
to say that we are the enemy of the people,
while at the same time being in a profession that
has been going through it when it comes to technology, yes,
(46:39):
and trying to you know, losing audience and trying to
figure out how do we get the audience back, and
then trying to figure out, Okay, they're not going to
come back in the ways we want them to, how
do we reach how do we go where they're going? Yes,
So that put all of that together, and you've got
a profession that is un enormous, enormous strain.
Speaker 1 (47:04):
Yeah, it's scary as a you know, a citizen again,
just one of the concerned ones looking from the outside.
I love that you use the two plus two as
for analogy. It's one of my favorites.
Speaker 3 (47:19):
You know.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
It really relates for me to the fact that there
are no facts versus alternative facts. There are just facts.
Science is science. Two plus two does equal four. That
is settled, period, end of story. And I am very
grateful for those of you who care enough about the
(47:42):
nation to try to lead it. Honestly, I think about
how exposed you are when you are a public figure
like yourself. And one of the things that touched me
so much about the book is it it really feels
like you just decided to go oh there, like you
leaned all the way in knowing what it's like to
(48:05):
have your life looked at on this big, great stage.
How did you invite more of that in?
Speaker 3 (48:11):
That was easy because back in nineteen ninety nine two thousand,
I read Catherine Graham's autobiography Personal History. At the time,
Kay Graham was the most powerful woman in journalism as
the publisher of The Washington Post. She was one of
(48:31):
the most powerful women in the country as a result
of that. And here comes this book that she wrote
where she is open, vulnerable, raw, honest about her insecurities,
about her fraught relationship with her mother, about her her
(48:54):
questioning whether she could hold her family together after her
husband died, whether she was good enough to lead the
Washington Post. I thought, this is the This is amazing
that this powerful person would put themselves out there for
all of us to see, like really see. You could
(49:17):
understand her having a book out there half its size
and saying nothing. And yet she decided to tell her story.
Fast forward twenty years and Charles Blow at the time
was a columnist for the New York Times writes his
memoir or Fire Shut Up in My Bones Again, Raw, honest, introspective,
(49:43):
and it helped me understand why there was so much
passion behind his columns for the New York Times. And
I thought those were such indelible, indelible books to me
that when I started writing, I thought, I have to
if I'm writing a book I have, and especially my
(50:04):
own story, I have to be as open and raw
and introspective and honest as they were. And so look,
anyone who has read my columns for the Daily News
going way back, or even the Washington Post, they are
used to me injecting myself into the columns as.
Speaker 2 (50:26):
A way of bringing the reader along.
Speaker 3 (50:29):
When Trayvon Martin was killed, for a lot of people,
it was an academic exercise. But then I wrote a
column that said, you know, when I was a kid,
my mother told me never to run in public, and
to never run with anything in my hands in public.
And you know, all the things that people then learned
was the so called the talk that black parents have
(50:52):
with their black kids.
Speaker 2 (50:54):
And so for a lot of people. For a lot
of my.
Speaker 3 (50:59):
White audience members who were reading me, it was their entree.
I was their entree, ambassador again, their entree into what
it means to be black.
Speaker 2 (51:12):
I was their sir.
Speaker 3 (51:14):
And so how could after writing like that for a
quarter century just about how could I not then do
that on steroids in the memoir? I have no regrets,
And in fact, what I love is hearing from all
sorts of people who read my story and see bits
(51:38):
of themselves, either of themselves in my story, in me
or my experiences.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
Yeah, I feel that as a reader of this, and
so I get very excited for, you know, the rest
of the audience of this show and folks out in
the world to get to read it too. And now
a word from our wonderful sponsors. I'm curious in specific
(52:17):
because these are the identities you get to speak to
us from. I know how touched I've felt by a
lot of it, and I wonder if a young queer
black reader picks up this book, what you most want
them to know or feel.
Speaker 3 (52:35):
I would want them to know and feel that anything
is possible, and that by the time they get to
the end of the book that they will close it
and be more hopeful after having read it than they
first picked it up. Especially you've read the book so
(52:55):
you know how it closes. And then I close on
a what might seem like a weirdly hopeful note, but
I use again, I use history to ground that hope
in something. And it's so incredible that you asked the
question the way you did that if a young black
queer person were to see the book. Yesterday, I was
(53:16):
at Harvard. Henry Lewis Gates, the Great Henry Lewis Gates
did a book talk with me at the Hutchin Center
there at Harvard, and we went to Q and A,
and there was a young black woman off to my
side here who asked a question. And she said that
(53:39):
she and her friend were in Boston and had heard
about this event and just decided on a whim to
come over to Cambridge to.
Speaker 2 (53:50):
Be at the book talk.
Speaker 3 (53:51):
And she said she was so moved by listening to
the story. And that's when she came out and said
that she's a young queer, black queer woman who's trying
to navigate this world and how do you keep hopeful
and while at the same time being, you know, trying
(54:13):
to safeguard your safety and your space.
Speaker 2 (54:17):
And it was just.
Speaker 3 (54:18):
Such a I don't even remember what I said to her,
but it was such a wonderful conversation that we ended
up having, and she got emotional, she started to tear
up when she was asking her question. I answered, and
you know, there are those moments when you're talking to
someone and you're looking at them and you just know.
Speaker 2 (54:44):
That they could use a hug.
Speaker 3 (54:46):
And I just jumped up and I said, can I
give you a hug? And it was just it was
one of those moments where I understood how important I
hope this book will be to her once she reads it.
(55:08):
She got a copy. I autographed it for her, and
I hope it gives her a roadmap.
Speaker 2 (55:16):
For the question that she that she was asking. More broadly.
Speaker 3 (55:22):
The night before, I did an event in Springfield, Massachusetts
at the Basketball Hall of Fame.
Speaker 2 (55:28):
Is where my that was on a basketball court in
this museum, this museum to basketball, and wonderful conversation.
Speaker 3 (55:40):
There's Q and A and the penultimate person because all
these adults and then who's there but this little, this
adorable black girl, nine years old. Her name's Amora, and
she tells me that you know, she has written a
(56:01):
book that is in the Library of Congress, and she
wanted to know how do you deal with writer's block?
And it was just it was so adorable, Sophia.
Speaker 1 (56:14):
That well, what did you tell her?
Speaker 2 (56:17):
Oh? I told her, I listened to music. You know
what I'm writing.
Speaker 3 (56:23):
That's the music I put on to sort of hit
up the emotion that I need or the speed that
I need to write. And she said she listens to
music too, and then she went away, and then someone said, well, wait,
what's the name of her book?
Speaker 2 (56:39):
She comes back, I call.
Speaker 3 (56:41):
Her back and I think the name of her book
was Queen Aunt and it's the children's book about how
this aunt is a leader and leading the other ants.
And she said it's part of a series of books
that she's going to do of aunt leaders. And I said, oh, so,
(57:05):
what's the next one? She said, Butterfly, what's the next one?
Oh no, what's the next one? B a be, what's
the next one? Butterfly, what's the next one? I don't
know what's the next one, Grasshopper, I said, I'm asking because.
Speaker 2 (57:19):
I know you know what you want your series to be.
Speaker 3 (57:23):
And we've wrapped up the conversation, and as I walked
back to the stage and sat in my chair, I
got emotional.
Speaker 2 (57:31):
I had to give myself a moment.
Speaker 3 (57:34):
Because this moment that we're in is so fraught, it's
so scary, it's concerning. We don't know what's going to
happen from day to day. And yet that nine year
old girl, I said to everyone, she what we just
saw right now, she is the reason why I have hope. Yeah,
(57:57):
And so you know, for that nine year old who's,
you know, kind of kind of like me at that age,
she knows exactly where she wants to go and what
she's doing. To that black queer woman the next day
at Harvard, who is trying to navigate those two different
(58:18):
conversations to different people. But I left more hopeful having
talked to both of them than I did when we
started the conversation. And so, you know, how could I
how could I not be hopeful for the future despite
what's going on.
Speaker 1 (58:39):
Yeah, I think that's something so important to click into
that we have to remember what we're fighting for, not
just what we're fighting against. Yes, yes we have to
fight fascism, but we're fighting for the babies. We're fighting
for the books to be written. We're fighting for, you know,
(59:01):
a healthy community, and I think hope is so valuable
because of that.
Speaker 2 (59:08):
Hope is fuel.
Speaker 1 (59:11):
Yeah, when you look forward, for you, whether it's personal
or professional, what feels like you're work in progress right now?
Speaker 2 (59:20):
Oh? My work in progress? Huh? Well that it's deeply
personal in that.
Speaker 3 (59:28):
Here I was this ten year old kid who had
a dream and no roadmap. There's nobody in my family
who and still to this day, no one in my
family who is a writer, an author, a journalist in television.
The closest was my uncle McKinley, and he was an
electrician at a television company. So I'm the only one
(59:52):
in my family who has done any of the things
that I'm doing right now. As a result, I'm now
at an age where I'm twice the age, more than
twice the age of my father when he died. He died,
as you know, when I was four months old, and
so I'm getting to that. I'm at that point, Sophia,
(01:00:16):
where what do you do when you have not only
reached your your dreams, you've exceeded them.
Speaker 2 (01:00:29):
What's next?
Speaker 3 (01:00:31):
That's the that is the thing that is most compelling
to be right now, what is the next thing, especially
when I'm so I'm still young. Yeah, and there's more,
there's more to do, so that that is the thing,
(01:00:53):
that's the big what's next?
Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
Gosh? How do you how do you write yourself a
permission slip to do something beyond your wildest dreams?
Speaker 2 (01:01:04):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (01:01:05):
That's a really exciting place to be mm hmm. Congratulations
to you, my friend.
Speaker 2 (01:01:12):
Ah, thank you, Sophia, thank you, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:01:14):
On the life, on the book, on all of it,
and thank you for joining us today.
Speaker 2 (01:01:18):
Ah, thank you for having me. This is fun.
Hosts And Creators
Sophia Bush
Bethany Joy Lenz
Robert Buckley
Hilarie Burton
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