Work in Progress: Michael Urie

True talent speaks for itself, and Micael Urie has it in droves! From playing fan favorite catty assistant Marc St. James on "Ugly Betty" to playing a hilarious narcissistic attorney in Apple TV+'s "Shrinking" to entertaining fans with his podcast and putting queer stories front and center with Pride Plays!  


Actor, producer, writer, and director Michael Urie joins Sophia to chat about his acting journey, including a fascinating chat about the interesting relationship actors have with the camera, what he has learned from Harrison Ford on the set of "Shrinking," what it was like hosting the GLAAD awards, and working (playing) with his "Ugly Betty" co-star and real-life friend Becki Newton on the rewatch podcast "Still Ugly!"


Plus, he shares the backstory on co-founding Pride Plays and putting queer stories center stage, what his younger self would think of his career, and what he believes is the greatest show ever!

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress high
wib Smarties. Today we are joined by one of my
favorite co stars ever, actor, producer, director, and host, Michael Uri,

(00:24):
who you know from bringing stories to life on screen,
on stage, and behind the scenes. He was everybody's favorite
Mark Saint James on ABC's Ugly Betty. He's been on
Modern Family, The Good Wife, The Good Fight, Younger, Workaholics,
Partners with Me, and basically every incredible play on Broadway
I don't know. Ever, Michael's currently starring in Apple TV's

(00:47):
hit series Shrinking, for which he won a Critics Choice Award.
He is absolutely one of the funniest people any of
us knows, and he's bringing some of that old school
humor back not only to the screen but to the
airwaves with his Ugly Betty co star Becky Newton and
their Rewatch podcast. Still Ugly and one of my very

(01:08):
favorite things that Michael does in all of his spare
time JK. He has none is He is the co
founder of New York City's Pride Plays, which celebrate and
elevate LGBTQ voices in the theater. This year, he's taking
the Pride Plays to Washington, d C. For World Pride,
and I can't wait to talk to him today about life, love, motivation,

(01:29):
lessons on screen and off, and how he manages to
keep this incredibly impressive resume going. Let's dive in with
Michael Ary.

Speaker 2 (01:49):
I was trying to remember, is that right? We were
the first gay kiss.

Speaker 1 (01:52):
On CBS and it was a peck.

Speaker 2 (01:54):
Just pack.

Speaker 1 (01:54):
It was a little smitchie. It's a little very cute.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
So cute.

Speaker 1 (01:57):
But what I was remembering is you never tell people
you made out Superman.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
We didn't really make up, but yes, I do. OK.
The answer is one yes too. We didn't really make out.
It was always just a peck and it was never
very romantic or sexy. But what I was thinking about
as I walked over today was you and he had
a sexy kiss.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
That's right? That like the David's nightmare?

Speaker 2 (02:19):
Yeah it was?

Speaker 1 (02:20):
Was it your nightmare?

Speaker 2 (02:21):
Was it a nightmare? Like? Just oh yeah? It was
like a test. It was like let's see if I
feel anything. Oh yeah, I don't feel anything. Let me
just try one more time and they kiss again. It
was one of those was it?

Speaker 1 (02:33):
I thought it was like a hallucination.

Speaker 2 (02:35):
Maybe that was it? Now that you're saying that anyway, anyway,
I remember when did we watch our show? Also, that's
our that's our next podcast. But that's what I like.
I remember, Oh yeah, they let that. They let the
like the beautiful straight characters. Well they let the straight
woman kiss a gay man the hot game.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
But not the gay man's partner.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
We had to just peck. Do you guys have this
like sexy, romantic, steamy kiss woo? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (03:05):
I remember because I got to be on safetand.

Speaker 2 (03:06):
Oh yeah, oh my.

Speaker 1 (03:08):
Was supposed to be fabulous, but like more than once
it blew into my mouth and I was like, I'm
just not hurt. I don't have the like. I'm more like,
you know, I'm a little more of a hobbit than
a pop star.

Speaker 2 (03:21):
But here we are hobbit hobbit it around.

Speaker 1 (03:23):
A little bit.

Speaker 2 (03:26):
Happy, happy hobbit. We had good times though.

Speaker 1 (03:29):
Happy Easter.

Speaker 2 (03:30):
I was shooting on Warner Brothers and I still think
about us all the time because Stage nineteen, I think,
is where we were, and it's right by the gym,
and I go there all the time and I always
think about us.

Speaker 1 (03:40):
To shoot a show on that lot, Warner Brothers, Law
Universal law I'm still trying to manifest it.

Speaker 2 (03:45):
Again the best every time I come out of a
stage at Warner Brothers and you see those look Have
you watched the studio the new Apple Show?

Speaker 1 (03:52):
Yeah, it's on my list as it could.

Speaker 2 (03:53):
It's really cool. It's like the craft is incredible, meaning.

Speaker 1 (03:59):
How they shoot. Yes, okay, it's.

Speaker 2 (04:01):
Gorgeous and like most it feels like it's one shot.
Really yeah, And it's so like fast paced, and there's
dozens of extras everywhere, and it's it's all on Warner Brothers,
so that you see the lot all the time and
it's it's very cool.

Speaker 1 (04:18):
Do you love is there really? I feel like there
is a viewer for me a difference in the sort
of level of creativity on an Apple show. Oh and
so doing shrinking do you do you just sort of
is it palpable for you?

Speaker 2 (04:34):
I mean Bill Lawrence? Yes, the answer is yes. Like
Bill Lawrence, my boss is so cool and he he
runs such a it's like an asshole free zone. There's
nobody with a chip anywhere. And he's a generous, fun
kind man. He comes on set and and you know,

(04:54):
he comes on set and it doesn't make everyone nervous.
It makes everyone everyone's shoulders drop when he comes on
set because we know, like, oh, he's gonna, you know whatever,
even if it's great, he's going to make it better.
Even if what we're doing is already great, he's going
to make it better. And and he's so busy as
so many things going on. He's like doing ten shows
at once. So smart, and he's so smart, and he

(05:14):
surrounds himself with the best people. They're people that have
been with him for decades.

Speaker 1 (05:18):
I love that.

Speaker 2 (05:19):
Yeah, you know, you always know when you meet somebody
or work with somebody and they've got the same people
around them and have for a long time. Yes, that's
that's I think a really good sign.

Speaker 1 (05:27):
I've had this experience this year because listen, I love
what we do, and sometimes set is not a nice
place to be and we've all had the best and
the worst of it.

Speaker 2 (05:36):
Yeah, And.

Speaker 1 (05:38):
The revelation for me this year of working on a
Shonda Rhime set has been wild. Oh, because they it's this. Yeah,
everyone is happy to be there. Nobody has a chip,
nobody's checking the clock, nobody's trying to get home early.
But they do want to make sure people get home,
like in time to see their kids, right, you know, right,

(06:01):
the whole dynamic. And then you go, oh, I get why.
You guys have been doing this for twenty one years,
like the entire time I've been an actor. They've been
making this one show of.

Speaker 2 (06:12):
Hers And that's crazy.

Speaker 1 (06:14):
Crazy, it's crazy.

Speaker 2 (06:16):
That's just been on for twenty one years.

Speaker 1 (06:18):
Yeah, wow, I know. And it's lovely. It's a lovely
place to go to work.

Speaker 2 (06:25):
And I think a lot of people you've been there
the whole time.

Speaker 1 (06:27):
Yes, yeah, I mean crew members, you know, started working
when they were young and now their kids are Oh
my gosh, it's crazy.

Speaker 2 (06:34):
Homes bought, mortgage is paid. Yeah, so that's really that's amazing.
It's really cool. It's cool when the right person becomes
a boss. Yes, it's a really like wonderful, magical special thing.

Speaker 1 (06:44):
And I like knowing that you have that.

Speaker 2 (06:46):
Oh yeah, I've got a great boss. And everybody. It's
a great it's a great crew, it's a great cast
is amazing. The writing is amazing.

Speaker 1 (06:56):
Writing is amazing. I just have the most fun watching you.
Oh obviously, you know, all I want to do is
talk about feelings all the time. I sort of turned
into the therapist at the corner of every party. So
now that there's a show that's on about a therapist
and his world, I'm just like I've been waiting for this.

Speaker 2 (07:11):
It's also like I feel like this show and this
is you know, I mean, having done a bunch of
gay stuff no why you know what I'm saying the
TV theater, you know, for like you know, quite a while.
Now I will get recognized by queer people or the
ladies who love them. And and now lately it's been

(07:34):
a lot of straight boys, straight men because because this
show lets them talk about their feelings and it's like,
you know, it's it's it's pretty moving. Just last night,
somebody came up to me who I know, who I
hadn't seen in a long time, and he said, I
just have to tell you that we have a family
member and this show has we haven't you know, like

(07:55):
there's been some tension and this show has brought us
back together. I know, I know. And it's like this
that like there's something about these straights. You know, it's
a Harrison Ford thing, It's a Jason Siegel thing, a
Bill Lawrence thing, Like these guys have tapped into like
a like a masculine sensitivity, and uh, it's it's cool.

Speaker 1 (08:21):
It strikes me the cool thing when we're in the
obvious nightmare you know, for women, we're people, most of
us in the world of the manosphere that is so
violent and toxic and scary. They've done this really cool
thing with these men because they're dudes. Yeah, like Harrison
Board's the he's.

Speaker 2 (08:40):
The dutiest dude of all dudes.

Speaker 1 (08:42):
And they're just they're not so evolved that they're like insufferable.
They're not whatever anyone thinks like an evolved man is.
They're just healthy men or men working on being healthy,
figuring out how to be healthy. It's like, it's nice
to see mask uinity that isn't trying to punch you
in the face.

Speaker 2 (09:02):
Yes, but that's.

Speaker 1 (09:03):
Still allowed to be funny and flawed and yeah and
heroic and he's allowed to be a good dad and
all these things. And you're like that that's what I mean.

Speaker 2 (09:12):
That's like, it's nice. That's what's possible. Yeah, that's what's possible.
And for it to be from a guy who is
a puncher and a guy who does has done gross
R rated comedies, you know, like that these guys can
now come around and evolve in two and Bill's been
on this trajectory all along, you know, you know, from

(09:33):
the days of Spin City and Scrubs. He was on
his way towards something that was like a more evolved,
growing comedy I think. So, yeah, have you guys talked
about that? No? No, but it's an interesting I have
a little coffee talk yeah, Bill, Yeah, because he's like, yeah,
I mean, I think he's been I don't know, laying
the seeds of better men, you know, men being better. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (09:56):
Okay, this is really interesting because when.

Speaker 2 (09:59):
We started the podcast, yeah, I mean, I.

Speaker 1 (10:00):
Think we're just in it. We dove in normally I
like to ask the question I'm about to ask you,
But I do think we've hit a full circle moment
because you're kind of talking about how people evolve, especially
as storytellers. And I'm always really curious when I sit
down with people, not just people who I've been lucky
enough to know for a long time, but people who
do what we all do. Like you're saying out in

(10:23):
the street, people meet you where you are in your career.
They know about you. They've now at this point probably
seen you in a couple of shows, a bunch of plays.
Who knows if you got to look back at your
own life the way we're talking about even you know
Bill as a storyteller, and you got to like go
for a little hang with yourself twelve or ten, like

(10:48):
in that Little Boy, would you see the adult you
are today? Would you see a storyteller? Would you see
the through line? Or would that kid be so wowed
meet Michael Uri.

Speaker 2 (11:03):
That's wow? What an interesting I like to think the
ten year old twelve year old me, if he watched TV,
he would get a kick out of adult me. And
I think maybe, and I mean certainly imagine like what
would he have done if he had seen Ugly Betty
or you know, like gone to the theater and seen
Spam a lot, or you know something that I've been

(11:23):
in that a kid would like. And I think about
that a lot. And I also I just was they
needed pictures of me as a kid for a scene
on shrinking, and I was just going through small pictures
and there's a picture of me with my friends from
boy Scouts. Did you have your little It was actually

(11:43):
it was actually Club Scouts because I didn't make it
to boy Scouts because I couldn't handle the campouts.

Speaker 1 (11:50):
But not for me.

Speaker 2 (11:52):
Thank you, thank you. I'll be back at my house.
But it was a picture of me and like four
of us all like like hey, I mean, let's get
a picture, you know, arms around each other, and they're
all like smiling, and I'm making the goofyest intentionally goofyest
space you've ever seen, like moh and uh, probably eleven

(12:12):
twelve in that picture. And I was like, oh, yeah,
I was a clown. Yeah, I was a clown. Then
a little yeah, it was a little ham And so
there is part of me that wants to go back.
And of course, you know rewatching Ugly Betty, which is
later but still very very young me. Yeah, And whenever

(12:33):
I think I haven't figured anything out yet, you know,
now as a forty four year old, I think I
don't know anything, I haven't figured anything out yet, and
then I look back and see that goofy kid making
everyone laugh in the cub Scout picture or you know
Ugly Betty, I think, oh, I might be able to
learn a thing or two from him.

Speaker 1 (12:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:52):
There was something about that confidence that I had then
that has I still have confidence and I still like
know what I'm capable of, but there's definitely like I
miss him. I missed that kid that didn't that had
never been told no, you know, that whole thing.

Speaker 1 (13:08):
I remember. I remember sort of realizing looking back at
the first year we were on the set doing One
Tree Hill. I just turned twenty one, I remember saying,
and I heard it when it came out of my mouth,
reflecting on her, going, well, I was just young enough
not to know better, meaning like I didn't know. I

(13:29):
couldn't go what the you know to my boss who
was being inappropriate with a bunch of women at the time.
I didn't and people were like, what are you doing?
And I just I didn't know. There were structures in place.
And I love that I didn't. I love the unaware confidence,
the ability to just lean into like what you feel,

(13:50):
what you know to be right. And I do think
how lucky we are to be forty somethings and to
be evolved enough to you have you know, lived and
grown and you can hold so many things to be
true and it's so great. And sometimes I just want
the absolutely unconscious confidence of a twenty one or a

(14:11):
twelve year old.

Speaker 2 (14:12):
I know, I always feel like in my twenties I
thought I knew everything, and then in my thirties I
realized I didn't and it freaked me out. And now
I know things Like now I'm like, oh, I do
know things. Yeah, there's a lot I know, and there's
stuff I don't know. And I'm okay with that. I'm
pretty okay. Yeah, and maybe not okay with that, but no,
I'm okay with that.

Speaker 1 (14:31):
It's like one of those boards you see people on
on Instagram where they're wiggling like a personal seesaw.

Speaker 2 (14:36):
It's that exactly exactly. But all my friends who are thirty,
I think they're the oldest people in the world. That's
the really fascinating And I did too when I would
turn thirty.

Speaker 1 (14:46):
That's the hard older at thirty than I felt at
for oh a thousand, very young now, which is weird. Yeah,
kind of nice.

Speaker 2 (14:54):
You look exactly the same. By the way, listener, I
appreciate that. O case you haven't seen her Shopsivia Bush,
she likes exactly what recently was.

Speaker 1 (15:02):
Like, really, what's the thing? And I said, I wish
I could take credit for my lack of sun damage.
I was just locked in soundstage for the entire decade
of my twenties, so when everyone else got sunburned, I
was a vampire, which is great for me in my forties,
but at the time I was like, I want to
go on a vacation New Mexico and I just never did.

Speaker 2 (15:21):
No, you're you're busy taking that flight back and forth,
four flights a weekend, four flights a weekend.

Speaker 1 (15:27):
Oh gosh, interesting to talk about our first jobs because
we're doing the same thing right now and watching our
first shows. Wild, right, what I have so many questions? Well, okay,
they're all running through my head at rapid fire, and
I'm like, which one do I pick? What is it like?

(15:48):
Because you've talked about this a little bit, but I
haven't spoken to you about this. How you see now?
How ahead of its time the show was?

Speaker 2 (15:55):
Right?

Speaker 1 (15:57):
What do you what do you see? What do you
pick up on? How does it feel to watch it?
You know for the two of you?

Speaker 2 (16:05):
Yeah, it's wild.

Speaker 1 (16:06):
What are you realizing about this thing that you that
you made?

Speaker 2 (16:09):
First of all, it's so relieved and proud to know
that something we made, you know, we shut the pilot
nineteen years ago, something that we did all the way
back then was on the right side of history for
the most part. I mean, there's a few things that
are you know, like that are It's one of those
shows that like we we went there with race stuff,

(16:29):
we went there with queer stuff. And when something was
you know, when something was racism or transphobic or homophobic,
that was that was on the bat, that was that
was bad in the show. So even though we would
just we would occasionally go there, it was bad. Like
if I was racist on the show, if my character
was racist, he got his come up and by the

(16:50):
end and he was like that. So we were never
doing it just for the sake of doing it, whereas
if you watch some shows, like especially like the nineties,
everything is gay, panic, horrible, everything horrible. It's crazy like
are we okay?

Speaker 1 (17:05):
Were people okay? No, you're so scared of us?

Speaker 2 (17:09):
What are you so scared of? And why is this
so funny? And also the funny racism, Like there was
that period where we were like it was all just
funny to be racist, and it was like, no, no,
I don't mean it, I being you know, I'm just
it's a I mean affable, you know, It's like, no,
that's that's actually not funny. That's not funny, and we
and we all thought it was okay to laugh at
those things. I guess so that it's a relief to rewatch,

(17:32):
like we Betty, And when those things do come up,
they're not they're bad. They're like, that's not a good thing.

Speaker 1 (17:40):
They're observed as a bad thing. Yes, we'll be back
in just a minute, but here's a word from our sponsors.
What's interesting to me about that, though, is I think
you have to take it's almost like a math equation
to me, you have to sort of analyze what was
transferm at the time and how it had to be done.

(18:03):
And the fact that there was a trans character on
Ugly Buddy was a very huge and the fact, by
the way, that one of the most famous supermodels in
the world played that trans character. Actually, I think at
the time, given where society was, probably did more in
that year for transvisibility than would have been done otherwise, because,

(18:28):
let's be frank, a studio wouldn't have given a role
to an actual trans woman on a show at the time.
And so I deal with this stuff too, what rewatching
my own show where I'm like, God, I hate that
we did it. That way, But I'm glad that we
opened the door so that other people could come in

(18:49):
the door. I talked to Kevin McHale about this.

Speaker 2 (18:51):
A lot with his character on Lee, Sure.

Speaker 1 (18:55):
You know, and now he's like, I wish someone who
actually was in a wheelchair had played totally. However, his
character changed the representation for disabled characters on television and so.

Speaker 2 (19:08):
And it showed disabled young disabled people who wanted to
be actors that there was a place for them that
like I could do something.

Speaker 1 (19:14):
Yes, that you could even go out for a TV
show in.

Speaker 2 (19:16):
The first place, and maybe be on a hit show
as a series regular on Foxy, you know that exactly
on Fox of all networks, by the way, exactly.

Speaker 1 (19:24):
So it's interesting to kind of have to look at
the thing for what was good and what was bad
and then divide it by the year it was on
the team.

Speaker 2 (19:33):
Yes, yeah, like a little equation.

Speaker 1 (19:35):
Mark math person should make the actual equation for that
for us. It's not me, but I see it in
my head.

Speaker 2 (19:41):
And when and and you know, when we would go
into issues with when we would like have storylines about
alexis mean on Ugly Betty her father was not accepting
and he was a bad man and he ended up dying.
You know, like that was like, that's love that that's what. Yes,
and played by a wonderful actor named Alan Dale, who

(20:02):
was not a bad man, but the character was a
bad man. And then her mother, Judith Light, complicated woman
character that played Alexis Claire Meade. She was a complicated character,
but she loved her daughter and she was good and
she lived. You know, it's like that, and it was
jud Light. So here we have gay icon you know,

(20:22):
who stood with AIDS patients before anyone else, and they
bring her in to support her trans daughter and that's
like so you know, it was way ahead of its time,
and it's so nice to watch it and not be
cringey and a relief.

Speaker 1 (20:40):
Yeah, we were on the CW. We have some cringe.
There's some things that I go on all right, But
then I you know, I also have the experience where
sometimes I see us do something or have a conversation
or do a storyline and I'm like, damn, I actually
get why this was such a big deal. And it's

(21:01):
cool to get to become your own fan. I didn't
have that. That's so nice.

Speaker 2 (21:07):
Well, no, I was too busy learning because I'd never
done anything, and so I would watch. This has come
up a lot on our show too. It's like I
remember a lot of my stuff, but I don't remember
a lot of other people's stuff. And so now I'm
becoming a fan of like the other actors on the show.
I slept on you, but like, but I was so

(21:28):
focused on getting my own stuff right and then rewatching
my scenes to learn because I didn't know anything about
being on camera, and so I would watch and learn
and be like, oh, I don't like that angle of me,
or I need to pay more attention when the camera
is there. I used to do this thing. This is
so silly, you know how, And so like you know how,
like like like like this, there's these two cameras on

(21:49):
this when they'll do coverage, so there's a camera, say
over your scene partner's left shoulder, and then another scene
or another another setup that put the camera between us
on the other side and I. For the first few seasons,
or maybe the first season or everybody, I would cheat
towards wherever the camera was, Like I was on stage,

(22:10):
you know, like on stage you cheat to the audience,
And so I saw I would see myself on TV
and I'd be like, none of this matches.

Speaker 1 (22:16):
Yeah, You're like, why am I jumping around?

Speaker 2 (22:19):
It's so embarrassing. I would like, yes, I was like,
why am I? Like my my face is towards the
camera no matter where it is. And now I know,
like you can't. You just can't do that. You have
to be real right and the camera's going to get you.
The camera knows. The camera's doing its job. You don't
know how to do it for it. It's really, I know,

(22:40):
it's an interesting relationship with the camera. I'd be interested
to hear what you think, because, like you know, sometimes
you think I want to forget the cameras there. I
want to ignore the camera. And then sometimes you're like,
oh no, the camera. Harrison Ford, who is on shrinking
his relationship with the camera is is more important than anything.

(23:01):
It's it's he's always talking to the camera. He talks
to the camera crew more than any of us, and
he's so he knows that camera as good as anyone
on the set. Oh I love it, and it's really
I learned so much watching the way that he deals
with the camera. Oh I love that because like, on
the one hand, you do. You want to pretend like

(23:22):
it's not there, but you can't. It's there. It's important.
You have to love the camera.

Speaker 1 (23:27):
What I've really learned, and I hope to someday be
as good at it as he is. You know, I'm
not a person who necessarily understands what lens worth throwing up.
I know, if we're going wide or long, sure, that's
kind of it. What I have come to discover, And
I do spend a lot of I spend a lot
of time with my camera crews, and I spend a

(23:48):
lot of time with my props department. M My favorite
thing to figure out with my camera operators is the dance.
And what I've learned is that if we choreograph really
well together, it's not that I forget the camera's there.
It's that the camera becomes my partner and the dance
becomes something I don't even it's it's muscle memory. And

(24:11):
so what I'm thinking about particularly, I have this movie
that I shot last year, which was an adaptation of
a book. So you know, I was like really geeked
about that. We filmed in this really sort of the
house itself felt like a set. It was very austere

(24:33):
and sterile and modern and it but a location.

Speaker 2 (24:38):
It was like a real location.

Speaker 1 (24:39):
We were out in Utah. It really lent a certain
quality to the movie. And the director who we were
working with is a big el mold of our fan,
and we watched all these sequences of things that he
loved for the visuals. And there's a scene where you
get to know the house following my character. It Yes,

(25:00):
she comes home and she's doing these things and so
all the stuff, you know, where you put your bag
and where you toss your keys, and what you're doing.
And I want to come in with flowers because I
do this every Tuesday, and I go to get a
vaz And we did all of these things, and the
camera it was this one shot that had to move
all through you know, driveway up the thing in the

(25:21):
front door, into the living room which has art sculptures
in it, and then around the dining table into the
kitchen and all this stuff. And we had just gotten
everyone's photos and all the child's photos and family photos,
you know set and I remember at one point when
we were figuring out what I was going to be doing,
where the things were going to be going, saying to
the director and the camera operator who's on the study,

(25:42):
which for our friends at home, it's like this giant
it almost looks like a kevlar vest. Yeah yeah, and
it has this arm on it and the camera floats
around in the hands of the operator. And I looked
up and I said, oh, if I'm doing this thing
and then doing this thing, and do you want me
to throw a glance to one of the foot photos
so you can go off me and track across these

(26:03):
and then I can reach into frame to grab the
vase and we can come back and go into the kitchen.
And my and my camera operator and my director look
at each other and they go, don't you love a
technical act? And I was like, we're dancing, We're dancing,
and it was this great way for it, so cool thing,
And that's something I realized I've learned in all the

(26:23):
years since we were little babies on our first set,
right right then, I feel like I'm in on it.
And then I love.

Speaker 2 (26:30):
Being aw you directed, right, Yeah, yeah, I like it. Yeah,
I bet, I bet you're good at that. That's such
an interesting because that was something I learned, like a
motivated pan you know, like you help that you help
them tell the story by looking. It's a very interesting
these did say this thing on Ugly Betty. If they

(26:52):
didn't know where to cut, they'd say, cut to America.
Like if they didn't know how to figure out what
the story was, what's the story in this moment the
edit room, they'd say, well, cut to America. She'll tell
the story. And there is something about that, like central character,
the one with the you know, the character with the
problem or the one who's trying to solve the problem.
If it's a good actor, and she was a very

(27:14):
very good actor, you could always cut to her and
she would have exactly the right emotion on her face
to help tell the story. I love, I know. It's
it's there's nothing nothing feels better than when someone who's
not an actor on a set says, you're helping me.
It's just like such a you know when when a
writer says it or the director says it. It's just

(27:36):
like because because we know what we can do, we
know what we're we know our thing, but we don't
always know their things. And and uh and and it's
the dance. It's really it's really cool. It's a really
like it's a really exciting thing because I also think
what's cool about being on a set is on a
movie set, are a TV set, is people come from

(27:58):
all walks of life, yes, to end up doing uh production,
and you know, maybe there's like a few paths that
people are chasing. Uh. You know, people go to Hollywood
to be an actor or a director, not necessarily to
be an ad or or you know, like a gaffer.

(28:21):
They might want to be a DP, and they are
working their way towards that, but they come from all
walks of life and uh, and they focus specifically on
their lane. And so there's there's all these experts. Everyone's
kind of an expert, and it's really yeah, it's there's

(28:43):
so much to learn and and everyone's so different and
so you really get like difference in the theater. It's
I guess in the theater people are more alike. Everyone
kind of like did plays in high school and and
now maybe they're stage manager or they're lighting designers or
the directors. But we all kind of came from the
same stuff. And that's also cool. That's also really fun.

(29:08):
And certainly in a musical you end up with musicians
and dancers and things like that, But on a film set,
you just never know where someone came from and what
they how they ended up there.

Speaker 1 (29:17):
Yeah, I mean when you start, you have your first
meeting with a UPM or a line producer, and you're like,
what do you do? You do the Excel spreadsheets, what
you know? And then there's someone who's just purely creative,
you know, the special effects makeup person, and you're like,
it's so weird that you guys are great friends and
you do this job together. But yeah, you're right, they

(29:39):
don't speak the same language at all. Did because you,
obviously and Becky are so close and you do the
rewatch show together still ugly, which I find to be hilarious.
That's off to you. How did you guys decide to
come back to it to do a podcast? And is
it because you have just been such great friends that
it felt like it made sense?

Speaker 2 (29:59):
Yes, it felt inevitable. We have remained friends all these
years we did. We've done lots of things outside of
our time on agly Betty. When we did the show,
they spun us off to a web series. We had
a web series, Oh Crazy, and we had a podcast. Actually,

(30:20):
ABC came to us and they were like, in the
first of its time. We are venturing into the soundscape
and we would like to do a podcast, and they like,
we're like, what's a podcast? You know, it's like twenty
eighteen or two thousand and eight, what's a podcast? And
there were some other shows that had podcasts, but it
was like, you know, a marketing person would run it,

(30:41):
and they thought, well, maybe Becky and Michael would like
to do it. And we did an episode for every episode,
and we interviewed the whole cast, and we interviewed guest stars. Yeah,
I was crazy, and it was on ABC dot Com
and we would do it on our lunch breaks. They
would bring micro ones to our dressing rooms and we
would record this podcast. So it was kind of inevitable
that we would have eventually come back to it. But yes,

(31:02):
we stayed friends all these years. We did a cabaret
act together, we did a musical once. We did have
a succeed in business on we were trying together. We
did we were supposed to do a pilot that got
canned because of the pandemic. We were literally like I
was literally like had a parking spot at Warner Brothers.
We were about to shoot this some hilarious multi camera

(31:22):
show where we played siblings, and then the pandemic happened,
and you know, it got pushed out and which is
totally understandable. And then when when then we saw people
were doing rewatch podcasts. I was actually watching The Sopranos
for the first time ever, which is the greatest show
ever read of. Oh my god, I'm just a creator
and I there's two rewatch podcasts from cast members of

(31:45):
that show. And so after a particularly you know, amazing episode,
I would like go listen, and I was like, this
is really fun. We should be doing this. And of
course Zach Braff does Zach Braff and Donald Fason have
their Scrubs rewatch podcast, yeah, which is so good. And
I was a guest because Zach directs Shrinking. He's one

(32:07):
of our directors on Shrinking, and he's brilliant and their show,
they got through all the episodes and now it's just
a show. Now it's just a podcast, and I was like,
that is so and it was so fun to be
on and I was just inspired, and so Becky and
I had talked about it over the years and then
finally just made sense. And it's hard to schedule because

(32:30):
we're both shooting. She's on Lincoln Lawyer for Netflix and
I'm shooting Shrinking. But but it's really special and really
fun to do, and we're getting to reconnect with our
old friends and watch the show. But it definitely and
the other thing that we didn't expect when we did
the first podcast was that people would send us questions.

(32:50):
I'm sure this happens to you too. Yeah, people would
ask for advice, and so it became kind of they
would like somehow, for some reason, Becky and I, who
were playing evil characters on the show, were somehow counselors
in their heads to these fans of the show. And

(33:11):
it still happens. We still, you know, this round of
this podcast, we're still getting people who want advice and stuff.
And obviously we're not like experts, but Becky's really clever
and we get we give some advice and give her
very advice. It's very fun.

Speaker 1 (33:27):
And now a word from our wonderful sponsors. Sometimes I think, though,
what people really want is they just want an opinion
from a friend. And then we've played a character who

(33:47):
feels like a friend to someone You are in that character, Psyche.

Speaker 2 (33:51):
Yeah, it's very sweet and in a way.

Speaker 1 (33:54):
I did this recently was I did an episode of
Chelsea Handler's podcast and she takes callers, and I'm also like, look,
I'm not I don't have a degree, you know, a
health degree, but like I've certainly spent enough money in
therapy to feel like I have some good thoughts, you know,
after all these years. And sometimes I think it's nice
to get advice, not from necessarily an expert, just another

(34:17):
human who's trying to figure it.

Speaker 2 (34:19):
Out, or an actual friend, you know, like a like
a friend in your head is sometimes easier, you know,
and sometimes when somebody's just getting the information face value,
it's I heard somebody say you want your friends to
listen and your therapist to tell you what to do,
and it's always the opposite. Yes, yes, And so like

(34:42):
maybe there's something about, you know, the friend in your
head that's in between.

Speaker 1 (34:47):
Yeah. Do you do you think there's an added element
of that because shrinking centers around yeah, therapy, Like, do
the interactions you have with people because of the text
of the show feel like they've changed?

Speaker 2 (35:02):
Well, because my character is it's so funny. That's a
very funny question actually, because we I meet a lot
of therapists who watched the show now, and this so
my character on the show in this In the first season,
he was this very like plucky, happy, go lucky guy,
and he had this mantra, everything goes my way, and

(35:25):
I knew when I read the first episodes. I was like, Okay, well,
this is obviously upfront. I mean, obviously this isn't you know.
He's just saying this, This isn't true. He doesn't really
believe all. I mean, he might believe it, but it
can't be true. And I can tell already that eventually
we're going to peel away the layers and find a
real person underneath. It's not just like this. And then

(35:48):
in the second season, and they did. And I had
some amazing stuff in the first season, and then the
second season even better stuff. And at one point in
the second season, I'm going to fight with Jason Siegl's
character and I'm making something about myself and he was like,
are you really so much of a narcissist that you
can't see what's going on here? And I say, yes, Jimmy,
that's what narcissism is, having the courage to put yourself

(36:10):
above others. And he's like, that's not what narcissism is.
And I was like, that's such a funny joke. That's
so great. Yeah. And then and then occasionally people would say,
you know this guy's like Bill would be like, and
then you know, we keep we make sure we do
this line, but also say something else, you know, say
something you know that a narcissist would say in this moment.
And I was like, oh, okay, oh and interesting. And

(36:34):
then I watched the second season and I started to realize,
oh my gosh, my character is actually a narcissist. And
then I met a therapist who watches the show and
she was like, I love the show and I love
your character. I'm like, oh, thank you so much. And
she goes, he's such a narcissist, just like almost accusatory,

(36:56):
and I'm like this And then I was like, I've
been playing a narcissist without realizing it, and and I thought,
I was like this is It was fascinating because you know,
a narcissist doesn't know there, they don't know they're a narcissist,
and you actually you can't really tell them because that
they won't really hear it and they'll just deflect it.

(37:18):
I mean, honestly, just saying this out loud, maybe I
am in real life a narcissist and I would never
know it. It's so weird. It's like really heady to
think about. Yeah, but this character or not. But that's
all anyone talks about and said. They're like always talking
about how he's a narcissist. I'm like, oh my god,
I've been playing a little bit. But also I'm kind
of proud of it, like I've been doing it right.

Speaker 1 (37:38):
That's really exciting. You're like, no, I really got into.

Speaker 2 (37:42):
It right and not judging him and and it turns
out it works. But that was something I you know,
in drama school, I learned we would play villains, you know,
doing Richard the Third and they're like, we're like, but
this guy's terrible, and he says he's terrible. How am
I supposed to play this? And they're like, you can't
judge your characters. And so that was like one of
those fundamental things that I learned, don't judge your characters,

(38:03):
look at what you know, get inside of them and
and figure out why they do what they do and
all that, Ye, what makes them to Yeah, And the
writing is so good on shrinking that I just play
the role, you know, I just I just see what's there.
And I'm like, Okay, this is when I think this
is the I'll be damned, I'm playing a narcissist all
this time.

Speaker 1 (38:22):
But here's what I'll tell you, And this is what
I think is cool, because you not that you'll be shocked.
I love to ask my therapist a million questions about
how he does his job, and he's like, you're paying
me to ask me about and I'm like, yeah, I
have a question here, because you know, all the all
the articles now are about narcissism, and you know, when
you're trying to.

Speaker 2 (38:40):
I can't imagine why we're all talking about, right.

Speaker 1 (38:42):
No idea when you're trying to sort of disentangle yourself
from one. You do a lot of research saying this
for a friend, obviously, right, right, right, But I was like,
how how do people know and how do you deal
with it and how you know? Like is there never
a question for someone who has this thing of like

(39:04):
could it be me? Am I this? And my therapist goes,
if you've ever asked yourself if you're a narcissist, you're not?
Oh and i'ment all right, he said they would never
they would, you know, and it was this really funny thing.
And so maybe that's part of it for you, is
to realize, as you said, the writing is so good
that you're getting into the head of this person, and

(39:24):
because you're figuring out what motivates his behavior, you are
playing him as he's written. But even the fact that
you're asking the question means, don't worry, You're okay, You're
not too close to It's funny.

Speaker 2 (39:38):
That's so funny. It's very interesting. Have you ever this
is a this is maybe a different podcast, but no, yeah,
kind of that. There's that thing like a narcissist, when
a narcissist rubs off on another person and they become
kind of like anti narcissist, where instead of making everything

(40:03):
about themselves, they assume nothing is about them.

Speaker 1 (40:07):
Right, they become almost disembodied. Yes, yes, it's fascinating interesting.

Speaker 2 (40:13):
It's this like consequence of being tied to a narcissism
where your existence becomes protecting yourself from them at all costs.
And it's actually like the like the opposite, and it's
it's still kind of narcissism, but it's like instead of
it all being like me, me, me, me me. It's
like no one, no one knows, you know, like, yes,

(40:34):
don't look at me, don't look at me, don't y yeah,
yeah I know.

Speaker 1 (40:38):
And now a word from our sponsors who make this
show possible. I mean, listen, it's it's life stuff, right.
Our jobs are so cool and so crazy. How much
fun to go to work and have everything be so

(40:59):
funny And you're dealing with humor in the lens of
mental health, which I think is a dream. It's not
lost on me that the person I know you to
be has found this job in this moment, you know
that you are. You're gathering an audience in such a cool,

(41:22):
positive way. You are modeling really healthy masculinity and people,
you know, being human to each other. What what does
it sort of feel like to have this now? Because
you have been an advocate for so long, you have
stood up for the community for so long, you have

(41:43):
exemplified queer joy for so long in theater in the
pride plays in your life and your love and your
relationship and your work. Like and we are in a
really weird time where so much of the progress we
feels like it's being so violently erased, like, how are

(42:04):
you taking care of yourself? How are you holding onto
your joy?

Speaker 2 (42:08):
It's so tiring, so exhausting. Yeah, well, I am heartened
by people that, you know, back in the day, even
when we were doing partners, there weren't many people who
were out of the closet.

Speaker 1 (42:22):
Well especially not Yeah, no, you're right, I was about
to say, especially not a lot of men, but really
just not a lot of people.

Speaker 2 (42:27):
Yeah, I mean more women, but not a lot of people.
And and back then you still had to like make
a whole thing about it, even when it was obvious
that you know, you know, like nobody was surprised when
I came out, but you still kind of had to
because they were asking. I mean, I remember one of
my first ever red carpets for Ugly Betty. This guy

(42:50):
I wasn't talking about my sexuality yet, and this guy
on a red carpet said so are you out and
put a microphone in my face? And I was so
did exactly that I made exactly the face you just made,
like what what that? That question was so unfair. It's
just not and I sort of hemden had and said, oh, well,

(43:13):
I'm I don't talk about my sexuality. That was my
That was my line that day. And the guy printed
his question and my response and he he described my response,
so it was in print. I don't remember what what
the publication was, but he wrote my response like that.

(43:34):
I harumphed hemden had yes and then said, I don't
talk about my sexuality, which is just like you know,
and you you, I know you've been there too. There's
sometimes you get asked a question in an interview and
you can tell there they've already decided what they're going
to write. It doesn't really matter what you say. They've
already figured out what they're going to write. And especially

(43:57):
when you know, especially then, and especially when it came
to things like that, and so like, on the one hand,
it's so nice to not be alone anymore and to
know that there's this huge community of queer people in media.
The GLAD Awards was like, gosh, was that that came
at the perfect time because we are being bombarded and

(44:22):
especially you know since January of this year, like it's
just NonStop, relentless. We have to we all have to
stay so on top of things. And everybody went after
I mean everybody I know wanted to like go on
a news diet and did some of them went on
the news fast and were just like can't you have

(44:46):
to sort of keep up with things, And it's just
relent it's relentless. But to go into a room like
the GLAD Awards that's filled to the brim with people
who've done the work and live there, live there truths,
and and and not not only that, but they ad

(45:06):
you know, they they are they are all all everyone
in that room is an advocate. That was That was
very special and that helped. That was one of those
like healing, wonderful moments. And you know, and I've I've
felt it on in a few different events that I've
been host of or MC of, and and there is

(45:27):
a sense that you do have to acknowledge what's going on,
but you also are allowed to We're all, I think
we are also allowed to put it aside and celebrate
what is working. And that was the thing about the
GLAD Awards that I kept going back to when we
did that, like, yeah, yeah, there's a dumpster fire happening
and and all of our stuff is in the dumpster,

(45:48):
All of our belongings are in the dumpster.

Speaker 1 (45:50):
Every precious to us.

Speaker 2 (45:52):
Yes, is in the dumpster, but there's also great work
being done and constantly, and here's proof, here's here's here's
millions of awards with billions of nominees to prove that
we've got a lot of great work happening and a
lot of a lot of we are moving the needle

(46:14):
in so many ways.

Speaker 1 (46:15):
I think that's what it is. Though, when you said
it's just so exhausting, Yeah, it's exhausting to have to
put out the same fire over and over again. Like
we've done this, We've put it out. Can we not
keep lighting the fire? What is the point? Why are
you trying to burn people?

Speaker 2 (46:31):
Right?

Speaker 1 (46:32):
You know? And the sort of cognitive dissonance of it.
They want to come for our community in such a way,
and I'm like, the call is coming from inside the house, y'all,
Like you go clean up your side of the street.
We're set here. Yeah, you know, I cracked a joke
about it recently where I was like, none of y'all

(46:53):
have you know, none of y'all have ever had a
problem of a woman like me is married to an
adulterer or white collar criminal or like what ever you
have a problem of a woman like me wants to
be married to another woman, Like, don't the girlies deserve
the chance to be just as miserable as the rest
of you, Like, come on, you know everybody's going to
pay their taxes unless you're a billionaire, go criticize them.

Speaker 2 (47:14):
Like the whole thing is just so cuckoo to me.

Speaker 1 (47:19):
But I think you're right. I think to be in
a room where people are celebrated for exactly who they
are and exactly what they're doing with it, you know,
and for what they're able to do despite the fire.

Speaker 2 (47:33):
Yes, right, that's that part.

Speaker 1 (47:35):
It's a really big deal. And it was also just
the most fun to watch you crush and host, and
I mean the split, the split Glinda and alphaba alp
absolutely did you hear me scream? I didn't laugh, I screamed,
and I was like, shut up, Soviia on stage. All

(47:58):
the moments were crushed.

Speaker 2 (48:01):
I've hosted enough now to know that, uh, fashion is
your friend. When you're hosting something, it does have to
work for you because we've all watched award shows where
a host comes out looking normal and then bombs their jokes.
And if you come out looking great, that's your first
joke in the bag. You look great. I don't need

(48:24):
I don't need to get a laugh. Now I look great.
The work is done. So shout out to Christian Seriano
who designed that look, made that thing.

Speaker 1 (48:32):
Your carpet fit was Charles Harbuson.

Speaker 2 (48:34):
When oh wow. Shout out to Michael Fusco, my stylist.
I had seven looks that night.

Speaker 1 (48:42):
You crushed.

Speaker 2 (48:43):
It was really fun.

Speaker 1 (48:44):
I wanted all of it. It's like, where did that
suit also come? Fringe, give it to me?

Speaker 2 (48:49):
That one so good? And then oh yeah it was.
It was a really special night and so many, so many,
so many cool people. And also you know you've been
at that venue before backstage for other I mean I've
been lots of different award shows. That backstage is so tiny,
the room is not big, and it can get tense

(49:09):
and awkward back there, and like people not wanting to
associate or not want you know, it's like this these
people's these people's people are keeping them away from these
people's people, and like that kind of thing that happens
backstage is weird, weird, creepy show busy things. Not at
the Clout Awards, it's a party. At the Cloud Awards,
it was and everyone was bigger because the everyone's looks

(49:30):
were bigger, so there was even less space and more
skin and it was and no tension backstage at all.
I was back there the whole night. There was no tension.
We were cramped, it was hot, but we loved it
was so we loved being there. Everyone loved being there
and was like supporting. And I think it was because

(49:50):
we all knew we'd done the work. Nobody was worried.
There was no like stress. It was no lick did
I did I? It was all, oh, we did? You
did I did? We've all all done the work. Everyone did,
yeah and have and now we can we can you
know we can. We can handle this. And that's something
to say. There's something like I feel that way about

(50:13):
really all the minority groups, like like everyone's everyone's had
to deal with this already. So this new round of
hate it feels different. It definitely this, this this administration
feels different than the previous administration or his first administration,

(50:33):
I should say. But even then, we've been through this.
We know hate. We faced hate, yeah, even if it
wasn't head on. We know what hate is meant for us,
and we are already stronger for we already have like
the thick skins. You're the one's without the thick skins.

Speaker 1 (50:54):
I mean, yeah, well, I think especially because we've we've
been through this for so long. I mean I think about,
you know, ten years ago, us being at you know,
Pride Marches. I think about growing up going to them
with my family, you know, we know the playbook now,
and I think the some of the sadness of the

(51:14):
you know, these these seeds they've sown, like the lies
have come home to roosts. And it's like every accusation
you make, especially about queer people, is actually you admitting
something you've done that you want people to think we've done.
Because what your spiritual advisor is going to go to
prison for assaulting a twelve year old Yes, mister president,

(51:35):
like you were besties with Jeffrey Epstein, Like bro, I
hate to break it to you, guys, but like the
receipts are out right and it's not us. And it's
why I love how viral that that hashtag not a
drag queen keeps going for years because they're like, oh look,
another one still has never been a drag queen. Guys.
We're fun, y'all, y'all. Y'all need to you need to

(51:58):
clean house on your end of the things. We will
just be at the gladderwards by Michael, You're believe forever.

Speaker 2 (52:05):
And also that you think about like you really think
that we we're just that we're doing this because of you.
You think that we we we we are queer because
of you, that this has anything to do with don't
you realize that we they're narcissists. Well, that's that's right exactly.
I mean, they think it's all about them. It's it's
all about this is our thing, this is this is

(52:27):
about us, this is who we are, and this is
and we did this because we didn't have a choice,
because we are this.

Speaker 1 (52:34):
Well, I think a lot of them forget and again
this is probably why they're trying to ban all the books, right,
Like the people who ban books are never on the
right side of history, to be clear, But they're trying
to ban all of the books because they don't want
people to know that pride started as a protest right,
that that the fabulousness was born of struggle, that it
was literally radical to be seen in public as you are.

(53:00):
So are people chose to be seen in the best
and biggest and brightest ways because they knew they could
get killed for it, right, And if people don't know that,
they don't understand how actually revolutionary it can be to
me yourself.

Speaker 2 (53:15):
If they don't know that, and if they don't like
do the work to learn that, then they just believe
whatever someone tells them, and they say that it's bad.

Speaker 1 (53:23):
Yeah, and then they also prot then no one cares
what you're sleeping with, and like, well, y'all are the
ones asking people live on camera on red carpets.

Speaker 2 (53:30):
I know, I know, trying to.

Speaker 1 (53:31):
Volunteer that information you're asking.

Speaker 2 (53:34):
You made us say it. Hello. Somebody responded to a
tweet of mine or an expost of mine that they
said something like basically to the tune of don't rub
it in your faces. You don't see straight people coming
out and saying I'm straight.

Speaker 1 (53:49):
Like have you ever seen a movie?

Speaker 2 (53:51):
Yeah? And almost like you do you know what a
rom com is. You're also disproving both of your points
with this very message. You're asking me to be like you, yeah,
and you're claiming your straightness.

Speaker 1 (54:04):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (54:04):
So yeah, I guess it's so.

Speaker 1 (54:08):
When people really were bombarding me when I started dating
my partner, and they were like, well, what are you?
How do you identify? What is the word? And I
was like, has no one paid attention to any of
the beautiful women I have kissed on both film and
Elias for the last twenty years. No one's been paying attention,
you know. And then I loved that. Meant much of
the lesbian internet was like, we all knew you weren't

(54:29):
just acting on easy. I was like, thank you, ladies, thank.

Speaker 2 (54:31):
You for seeing me.

Speaker 1 (54:34):
This is always where I have been seen.

Speaker 2 (54:36):
They were happy to claim they were very happy, welcome you.

Speaker 1 (54:40):
So happy to officially be home though it's been home
for so long, when to be seen is so special?
And I had like a very you know, I get
very emotional when people that I love are happy and
watching you win the critics choice ward, I was like, y,
I'm just so amped for you.

Speaker 2 (55:01):
Thank you?

Speaker 1 (55:02):
Was it because you love the show and because you
love the material and and you know the whole gang
that puts it together and it's it's the critics choice.
It's like, to me, it feels as cool as maybe sag.
It really does feel like peers, right? Was it? Was
that a really special one?

Speaker 2 (55:22):
Yeah? And interesting That's an interesting comparison because obviously SAG
Awards is voted on by actors. Yeah, so that's you know,
that's a very satisfying nomination or win. But the critics,
critics choice. The critics they're watching everything, that's it. They
see everything but the keenest eye.

Speaker 1 (55:43):
Yeah yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (55:44):
And to think that they watched what I did and
said we like that. I mean obviously, like you know,
we're all conditioned to think reviews don't matter, and it's
and it's and of course sometimes it's true and sometimes
it's not. But like it is part of the industry.
I mean it is. Any art will eventually be dissected

(56:08):
and criticized, good and good or bad, and so like
it is, it is part. It is part of the industry.
We all have to accept it, whether you read reviews
or not. I don't actually read reviews. Well you're not
trying to make yourself crazy, right, Well yeah, because then
you're like, okay, well do I do what they want
me to do? Or do I do what they want
me to do or do what I think I should do?
And but to know they're watching and smelling when I

(56:31):
stepped in that was like really, really gratifying and super surprising.
I mean I wasn't. I was not. I didn't know
it just you know. My publicist texted me that day
and she said, you just got nominated for a Critics
Choice Award. And I was like, what what that's today?
This is happening. I had no idea. And then we
went and my sister was my date. And before it

(56:55):
was the night before the Critics Choice posted some video
of you know, like we're getting the room ready, and
it was like like quick cuts of the seats with
the pictures of the actors, you know, home board exactly,
and I was one of them. And I was like,
whoa alongside big stars, Like it was like Angelina Jelle

(57:17):
and to me Moore and Michael Ury. And I was like,
what is happening? And that was the first moment I
was like whoa, I'm in the I'm in the video. Hey.
And then we sat down and my sister was like,
are you so nervous? And I was like, no, I'm
not nervus. I'm not going to win. This is just
that we're just gonna have a lovely night. I'm not
gonna win, and she's like, I think you might, and
that was when I was like, whoa, Laura thinks I

(57:38):
might and she doesn't know anything. If you think I'm might,
if she thinks I'm might, truly yes and uh. And
it reminded me actually have another moment when my when
my mother said, my because it's so easy to talk
yourself out of something. Yeah, it's so so easy. And
when I was when I was in community college, I
went to community college for a year out of high school,

(57:59):
becau I had terrible grades and and I and I
was trying. I was like change. I was sort of
like going through a transition. I thought I wanted to
be a drama teacher. And then I was like, maybe
I'm good at acting, maybe I could be an actor,
and and I was like maybe ya ya YadA. But
then I had a teacher at this community college urged

(58:20):
me to audition for Juilliard. And I was like, Okay,
I'll do whatever you say. I'll do whatever you think.
But I'm perfectly happy at my community college and this
is this is what I want to do. And my
parents were like, how are we going to pay for Juilliard?
It's so expensive, we don't have that kind of money.
And I was like guys, I'm not going to get in.
I'm just doing this because I think it'll be a
good experience. And my mom goes, I think you might.

(58:44):
And it was those two I'll never forget. Those two
moments were really I talked myself out of a possibility
both of those times, and my family kind of showed me.
And it, I mean obviously, like one, by the time
they said my name of the Critic's Choice Awards, the
voting had been done, and it was nothing I could do.

(59:06):
I mean, I you know, there's nothing you can really do.
But it's certainly when I auditioned for Juilliard with my
mom's confidence, that helped, you know, and my mom's not
in the business. My mom doesn't know, but she watched
me and she thought I was good, and she could
see the other people were responding to me, and and

(59:27):
she knew sometimes she knew yeah, yeah, really cool. Yeah
it was cool. So it's uh, yeah, it's it's there's
something about that, Like obviously all we do is in
order to be seen. That's when we got into this.
We wanted to like make stories and have people look
at them. But yeah, and I know that people are
seeing me, but to be seen is sort of different.

(59:50):
They they they're saying, I get it, I get what
you're doing and I like it. And that was that
was very gratifying.

Speaker 1 (59:57):
That's so nice. It's such a nice valid Yeah, you know,
it feels like a healthy, a healthy version of that too.
Do the does the work you do with the Pride plays?
Do you do? You also see it in that way
as helping people be seen as helping queer stories be
seen totally, like how did it? How did it come

(01:00:18):
to fruition? And I sort of want the backstories you
can tell us about how it's growing this.

Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
Yes, yes, thank you, thanks for asking us. So basically,
Doug Nevin, who is a wonderful theater a man of
the theater. He's a lawyer and a producer. He and
I became really good friends. He he was a producer
of the solo play I did, Buyer and Seller, this
play that I did for a long long time where

(01:00:43):
I played an actor working in Barber Streisand's basement. Look
it up, you love it? And and we became really
good friends because we were the same age and we
just got along really really well, and we kept we
would always talk about queer theater and the good and
the bad. And obviously I do a lot of theater

(01:01:04):
and a lot of queer theater, and there's no there's
no like lack of queer stories in the theater. It's
a pretty queer medium. But what we kept noticing. I
kept noticing specifically that like it was me and the
same couple of guys every time up for roles or
we would follow each other like like, you know, Jesse
Tyler Ferguson didn't do this, so I did it. I

(01:01:26):
didn't do this, so Jesse did it. And it kept
like and I was like, I get white people think
Jesse and I are alike, but we actually aren't alike.
We're actually very very different, and yet we keep getting
you know, even sometimes mistaken for each other. And I'm like,
all right, well, that's like this is a problem we
need to like and and I also know because I also, like,

(01:01:48):
my partner is an actor, and I know lots of
other queer actors, and and there's this there's this mid
level issue which happens in I think all industries. But
there's this thing where like you can get experience until
you've had experience, and they won't give you a chance
without experience, And so what Doug and I wanted to

(01:02:09):
do was create this opportunity for people to have opportunities.
And also we didn't like that queer stories were continuing
to be told by straight people when there are I mean,
I don't think this. I don't have a black and
white rule about this. I don't think I don't I

(01:02:29):
think that this is a fluid conversation about you know,
who can play what. But I do think when when
a role or a story is inherently about the queerness,
that to say a straight person is the best person
for the job is silly and that happens a lot
when you know, like you're like, well, can't we just

(01:02:49):
hire the best person for the job, And it's like, yeah,
you can, and you should. But like who are you seeing?

Speaker 1 (01:02:56):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:02:57):
Who's your casting pool?

Speaker 1 (01:02:58):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:02:59):
Are you seeing all the street? Are you seeing all
the gay people before you see the straight people, or
as you see the straight people, or are you you know,
is your list a bunch of straight people that you know? YadA, YadA, YadA.
So that was something that and then Doug on his
side of his side of the industry, was we were,
you know, like as queer plays get submitted to theaters,

(01:03:21):
they end up in the same pile. So you might
have a play about a forty something white cis gay
man in the same pile as a story about a
twenty something black trans woman, And like those two plays,
those two plays shouldn't be in the same category, right,
Why are you putting them in the same category and
then choosing one over the other.

Speaker 1 (01:03:39):
Yeah, it's like you wouldn't put a World War two
movie in a roum com in the same pile.

Speaker 2 (01:03:44):
Thank you? Exactly, you know exactly. And so that was like,
it's like gay is not. Gay is not a category? Yeah,
gay is you know, that's a that's a kind of
a part queer is it. So we wanted to create
a festival where they could all So we set out,
we were like, let's do a festival, and it was
this was for World Pride when it was in New
York and twenty nineteen. That's when we started. Yeah, and

(01:04:06):
we thought we could do like four plays, and then
we were like, wait a minute, there's a lot of
different kinds of people in this community and we need
to try to represent all of them. And it ended
up being nineteen Wow, and I think we did a
really good job. It was it was it was hard,
but I think we really did, you know, tick all
the boxes, so to speak, and and and and reach

(01:04:28):
out to like as much of the community as we
could and try to represent all of them. And so
in the in the years since, we did one on
Zoom during the pandemic, and we've and we've done educational
initiatives through the festivals. And this year we are World
Pride is in d C and we're going We're going

(01:04:50):
to d C for World Pride. Pride Plays will be
an association with the William Memmath Theater Company during World Pride,
and we're going to do I think we're going to
do six play readings. And it should be it should
be great. It might be charged, it might be it
might be there might be some I don't know what

(01:05:11):
it's going to be like. I mean, honestly don't know
what it's going to be like. And things change so rapidly,
especially in that town. But I've worked in that town
a lot in the theater. I've done a lot of
theater in that town, and it is one of my
favorite places in the world to do theater because the
audiences are so they're so they're so intelligent, but more

(01:05:35):
than that, they are they're curious, they want to learn.
And because their jobs are so intense, everyone in DC
has such intense jobs, they really are able to like
put it away and come and focus on something new,
as opposed to sometimes in New York, like you get
like professional theater goers who see four four shows a
week and and so it's always it's always it's always

(01:06:00):
work for them, and you can feel them say what's different,
what's new? You know, in d C you can do,
like in New York, if you're going to do say Hamlet,
it's got to be like either definitive or brand new,
some brand new version. And in d C you can
just like throw Hamlet up and say this is Hamlet.

Speaker 1 (01:06:20):
Yeah, and it can just be very good.

Speaker 2 (01:06:21):
It can just be good, yeah exactly. It doesn't have
to like reinvent Hamlet or be the best Hamlet ever,
in which New York's you know.

Speaker 1 (01:06:30):
You've had seven times, yeah exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:06:33):
And in New York you try to do some old
play and you know, if you didn't, if you didn't
completely reinvent it, then it's a failure, which is weird.
But but but in DC, you can do that and
the audience wants that. So so I know the audience
will be great for us in d C. And I
feel like it's going to be great. That's my hunch.

(01:06:55):
You never know what you never know. Yeah, it's gonna
be a lot of queer people come into.

Speaker 1 (01:07:01):
DC, you know what, good they need it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:03):
Yeah, I think so, And I think we have an
opportunity to you know, change some change some minds.

Speaker 1 (01:07:09):
And now for our sponsors. When you look at this
sort of landscape of your life and you know your
life with Ryan and your life in work and that
your advocacy and your shows and the plays and all
the things, you have a lot what feels like you're
work in progress.

Speaker 2 (01:07:30):
Right now, right right right the title.

Speaker 1 (01:07:34):
The title you knew it was coming, and then you
forgott come full circle.

Speaker 2 (01:07:39):
There it is. It's probably actually there's there's some adulting
that I think is a real work in progress. And
that's that's something that I'm like, you know, like when
I talk to people who are younger than I am,

(01:08:00):
there are lots more of them now and that happens
to us. Yeah, and what I see in their eyes
that they're looking to me for some kind of insider advice.
You know, I had somebody as somebody that I'm close
with who's about thirty, asked me to mentor them, Like
I actually asked me to mentor them, and I thought, oh,

(01:08:21):
I can't. Yeah, I'm gonna too. Oh I am old
enough to be someone's mentor. So wrapping my head around
that and and and trusting that I'm an adult and
I can do that, and I can like just off
the cuff give insights and advice that aren't entirely my

(01:08:43):
own experience, because that's really hard thing, especially in our business,
is all you really know is what happened to you. Yeah,
we've definitely've been around and we've been able to observe things,
but I can only really, I can only really know
what's happened to me and you your experience will definitely
be different because we all have different different experiences. No

(01:09:05):
two actors are the same. But it's navigating that, like
the sort of the responsibility of being elder gay of
being you know, like elder actor being the oldest person
in the room sometimes. And then also outside of show business,
you know, animals getting older and homes falling apart and mortgages,

(01:09:29):
and like those kinds of adult things nissas and nephews
that are coming of age and aren't just little squishy
things that I can hand back and like now they're
you know, okay, this is forever. These memories are forever now,
and I want to be you know, I want to
be a good citizen to them. So I think the

(01:09:52):
work in progress is actually being you know, like I
think in show business, I'm way more at ease than
I've ever been, and as a man adult, I'm figuring
it out still. Yeah, I'm still figuring out like how
do you be a man in this? And also our
world keeps changing, so I'm giving myself a little bit

(01:10:14):
of slack, a little bit of grace. But but yeah,
what's it like to be a middle aged man.

Speaker 1 (01:10:24):
That's a big question.

Speaker 2 (01:10:25):
Because eighty eight feels good. That feels like a good
age to make it too, So that means this is
the middle I loving people who are well this is mean.

Speaker 1 (01:10:35):
I mean you have a whole other half, that's right,
And look at what you've done in the first half.

Speaker 2 (01:10:38):
That's right. Yeah, totally, And so much of the first
half was spent as a kid, yeah, which doesn't really
count exactly. I was just grissy.

Speaker 1 (01:10:50):
It's like you get double the adult time now.

Speaker 2 (01:10:52):
Yeah, I know it's cool.

Speaker 1 (01:10:54):
I love it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:10:55):
Well, I'm excited to do forty four more with you.

Speaker 2 (01:10:58):
Great, let's go. Oh okay, let's sing on a beach
when we're eighty eight?

Speaker 1 (01:11:04):
How fast? Just not giving up?

Speaker 2 (01:11:06):
Right? I love you, I love you, Thank you. It's
so nice to be THO for you. Thank you,