October 31, 2023 • 44 mins
Episode 8 of 8
In a rare and remarkable move, the current Jefferson County District Attorney, Danny Carr, has asked the court to throw out Toforest’s conviction and order a new trial. The original prosecutor, Jeff Wallace, joined Carr’s call to right this terrible wrong, yet Toforest remains on death row, and the State continues to seek his execution. Beth unpacks the journey these powerful men have taken to reach their conclusions while also exploring why the system itself refuses to self-correct. The series concludes with Toforest’s children sharing how his wrongful conviction has shaped their lives and how they continue to hold out hope that the truth will prevail and their father will finally receive the freedom he deserves – before it’s too late.
To learn more, including how you can help, visit:
http://www.ToforestJohnson.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Last time on ear witness.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
She was a very credible witness.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
We believed her.
Speaker 4 (00:17):
Obviously, we believed her because we convicted him and it
was on her testimony.
Speaker 5 (00:21):
The only evidence supposedly they had against was this ear
witness who had never heard him speak before, who had
no idea who he was.
Speaker 6 (00:31):
That is extremely strongly evidence. Che Fish believed. Of course,
the question would come, so you believe that evidence. Well,
to believe that evidence, she had to please. There's Ellison,
and so.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
We're trying to get information on her. Her name's Violet Ellison.
Do you have an opinion about her or have any
any information that you could give us about her.
Speaker 7 (00:51):
I know she's ververy condicted. She's a very messy lady,
very messy.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
I tell you one thing about my grandma.
Speaker 8 (01:01):
She is a that's a true scam artist.
Speaker 4 (01:04):
That's a true I hate to see it. I know
that's my grandmother. That's a true.
Speaker 5 (01:07):
Scam audi death.
Speaker 9 (01:09):
And I hate that this man could be innocent and
for five.
Speaker 10 (01:14):
Thousand dollars, he's on this for five thousand dollars.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Near the intersection of Rosa Parks Avenue and Liberty Street
in Montgomery, Alabama, is a tiny red brick church outside
Saint Peter Ame. A large white banner is stretched twenty
five feet across the church's front lawn. The words It's
not too late to fix this mistake are written across
(02:01):
the banner in black and red letters. The mistake is
to forrest Johnson's conviction. The banner was created by an
(02:26):
organization called Greater Birmingham Ministries. This year, it has traveled
to eight different churches across Alabama to help raise awareness
about to Forest's case. Awareness that is growing.
Speaker 7 (02:42):
Holy cow, it's just ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
This case is shameful.
Speaker 11 (02:48):
My name is Lindsay Boney. I'm a lawyer at the
law firm Bradley Ariant Bolt Cummings. When I think about
this case, it's mind blowing to me.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
My name is Carla Crowner. I'm a lawyer and executive
director at Alabama Appleseed Center for Law and Justice. This
case is stunning and this case is heartbreaking.
Speaker 7 (03:12):
My name is Nick Gaeti.
Speaker 6 (03:13):
I have been an active lawyer in Birmingham since nineteen
sixty four. We can do better, and we need to
do better.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Lots of people have known for a very long time
that this man is innocent and he's still on death row.
Why does it take twenty five years?
Speaker 1 (03:35):
These are just a few in the chorus of powerful
voices calling on the state to fix this. Lawyers from
all sides of the political spectrum are lending their support,
along with former prosecutors and judges, as well as Alabama
churches and faith leaders like sister Helen Prajean.
Speaker 9 (03:56):
Please God, with these efforts and people hearing this about
too Forrest, his life will be saved.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Even death penalty supporter Bill Baxley, Alabama's former attorney General,
has joined the fight.
Speaker 8 (04:14):
I will add my voice or anything I can do,
because this is a situation that shouldn't be allowed to
exist another minute.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
When Baxley reviewed to Forrest's case, he was so outraged
he wrote an op ed in The Washington Post that said,
an innocent man is trapped on Alabama's death row.
Speaker 8 (04:41):
The only thing that I can see is to why
this kind of thing happened, was the victim was a
law enforcement laws.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
To Forrest Johnson now has unpressed, incidented support, and it's
not just from all these people who believe he's innocent.
The current District Attorney of Jefferson County, along with the
original prosecutor who sent him to death row. Both now
say to Forrest Johnson deserves a new trial, So why
(05:23):
is the State of Alabama still trying to kill him?
I'm Beth Shelburne. This is ear witness, Chapter eight Bondage
to the Law. Okay, how are you I I'm good.
Speaker 12 (06:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
I'm meeting with District Attorney Danny Carr, but not at
his office in the courthouse. We're at the barber shop
he owns in Birmingham's Insley community where he grew.
Speaker 13 (06:27):
Up from the Ansley community where we are today. I'm
matriculated through the Birmingham City school system.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
The barbershop is old school tile floors, posters of hairstyles
on the walls, and a sign advertising ten dollars haircuts?
Can you talk while he's buzzing? I don't normally interview
prosecutors while they're getting a haircut, but Danny Carr is
(06:58):
a busy man. In twenty eighteen, when he was elected
District Attorney of Jefferson County, he became the first black
man to hold the position. He now runs the same
office that argued for to Forest Johnson to be sentenced
to death for Deputy Bill Hardy's murder. But Danny Carr
(07:19):
wasn't part of to Forest's prosecution. He wasn't even a
lawyer yet when it happened. Danny Carr is different from
other das in a number of ways. He ran as
a change maker. He put together the first conviction review
unit in Jefferson County. The unit's job is to review
(07:40):
cases where the DA's office might have made some mistakes.
He's one of only three black das among the forty
two across Alabama. He grew up in a community that's
been impacted by crime and mass incarceration. His family has
(08:00):
also been a victim of violence. The year he was
hired as a young prosecutor, Danny's younger brother, Jaxton, was murdered.
Danny named his barbershop D and Jay in his brother's memory.
D for Danny, J for Jackston. Can you kind of
walk me through your involvement in the to Forest Johnson case?
(08:23):
When did you first become aware of it?
Speaker 13 (08:25):
I became aware of it when I was an assistant
DA conversations about it, but I didn't know true to
the facts of it.
Speaker 7 (08:33):
I just overheard different.
Speaker 13 (08:34):
Conversations varying opinions about it, and then what happened.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Once Danny was elected as DA, he started hearing more
about to Forest's case as a possible wrongful conviction, and
the year after Danny was elected, to Forest's case was
back in court. This was the hearing I covered the
first time I reported on to forest case, where his
attorneys argued that Violet Ellison testified in pursuit of the
(09:03):
reward money and the state hid it. I saw Danny
Carr at the hearing, but he told me he wasn't
ready yet to comment on the case.
Speaker 13 (09:13):
When it's that end, I didn't know, you know, who
was telling the truth of what was right what was wrong.
I just listened and it was apparent that if some
of that stuff was true, then it was concerning.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
So after the hearing, Danny decided to conduct a full
review of to Forrest's conviction. For nine months, he read
through the trial transcripts as well as the documents that
prosecutors had claimed were misfiled. He was troubled by the
five thousand dollars reward payment given to Violet Ellison that
(09:47):
the jury didn't even know was a possibility.
Speaker 7 (09:51):
Well, if that information was not disclosed then the process
was flawed, and that the process was flawed, then the
end result is not truly the end result, because to
get to the end result, the process has to be fair.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Danny also talked to people involved, including alibi witnesses, but
perhaps the most significant person, Danny Carr consulted the original prosecutor,
Jeff Wallace, the same prosecutor who asked two juries to
sentence to Forrest to death. It turns out Jeff Wallace
(10:29):
had his own questions about the credibility of his star witness,
Violet Ellison, going back fifteen years.
Speaker 6 (10:39):
I observed something that triggered in my mind, indeed to
report this to the defense. I don't know if you
know about that or not. What did you observe after
the conviction and symbols?
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Several years after to Forrest was convicted, Jeff said he
was passing through a courtroom during a trial of a
drug dealer. Jeff Wallace wasn't prosecuting the case. He just
needed to ask the bailiff a question.
Speaker 6 (11:08):
And as I left the bailiff station, which of course
in the front of the courtroom, I'm walking out and
happened to notice in the spectators area on the front row,
the defendant's wife being consoled by our chief witness in
the Johnson case in Milson, miss Ellison. That's right. In
(11:31):
my mind, that conduct was inconsistent with the picture that
I had of miss Ellison at the time of trial.
She seemed to me to be only a mother trying
to do the best thing for her daughter, and happened
to overhear a telephone conversation, and that record that the
(11:53):
notes that she made of that telephone conversation became important
in the trial of mister Johnson, as you know, So
her credibility as the citizen she was, I think was
important because she was the case. She is the case.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
To be clear, I'm not sure what consoling a suspected
drug dealer's wife has to do with Violet Ellison's credibility
into Forrest's case, but Jeff said it left him with
an unsettling impression about his star witness, a realization that
there were things about her he didn't know.
Speaker 6 (12:43):
So seeing her being so close to the wife of
a man that everybody knew was a major drug dealer
disturbed to that image in my mind, I thought, well,
I'm going to report that to the other to the defense,
and he did.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
In two thousand and seven, Jeff Wallace talked to to
Forest's legal team about what he saw. They looked into
the information, but so far it hasn't led to any
new legal claims for to Forest. Fast forward thirteen years
and Danny Carr calls on Jeff Wallace to talk about
the conviction of to Forest Johnson. Jeff shares his concerns
(13:27):
about Violet Ellison's credibility, and then he does something that
makes a major impression on Danny. Jeff Wallace says he
believes to Forest should be granted a new trial. This
incredible development pushes Danny to take public action.
Speaker 7 (13:47):
Your job is not to get convictions. Your job is
to seek the truth.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
But Danny has one more important call to make to
Deputy Bill Hardy's family. He braces himself, it's never easy
for a prosecutor to talk to a victim's family about
unsettling the conviction and their loved one's murder. But he
picks up the phone and calls Deputy Hardy's widow, Patricia
(14:13):
Dianne Hardy.
Speaker 13 (14:15):
And I called her.
Speaker 7 (14:15):
She said, look, she said, I know your mom. I
know you.
Speaker 13 (14:18):
Bennoying since she was a little boy. She said, you know,
I trust you, and whatever decision you make, I'm fine
with it. But I trust you and you can't get
any better. And that's what you want from people.
Speaker 7 (14:34):
Period.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
And then Danny Carr does something extraordinary, something that almost
never happens. He files a brief with the Jefferson County Court,
writing that his duty to seek justice requires intervention in
the case of to Forest Johnson. He asks Judge Pullyam
(14:57):
to throw out to Forrest's conviction and order a new trial,
and he includes that the original prosecutor, Jeff Wallace, supports
this call for a new trial. Of all the capital
murder cases that you've looked at, you've tried, you've been
familiar with as DA, how do you see this case?
(15:18):
How would you describe it in the context of all
the cases you've seen.
Speaker 7 (15:25):
I think it's the worst case.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
I spoke with Jeff Wallace about his support for a
new trial. I think you joining the district attorney is
a powerful statement from a former prosecutor in a capital case.
I can't remember, in my reporting of over twenty years,
(15:48):
ever seeing that or hearing about it.
Speaker 6 (15:51):
Oh, I'm sure I'm not the first.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Jeff seemed to want to downplay the significance of his
support for a new trial. But this this is seriously rare.
I looked for other cases like this and reached out
to experts who study wrongful convictions. Nobody could remember a
death penalty case in any state where the original trial
(16:15):
prosecutor called for a new trial. I interviewed Jeff Wallace
three different times, with four hours of on the record conversations.
Jeff was accessible and generous with his time, but he
was also careful with his words.
Speaker 6 (16:33):
I still am personally satisfied that the evidence showed to
Forrest Johnson to be yilty. Of course, my opinion is
based in a large part on the testimony of the
Violet Ellison that I saw at trial. But there's a
in my opinion, there's a reason to look at it again.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
This is what I mean by careful. He says the
evidence at trial showed to Forrest to be guilty based
on Violet Ellison's testimony, but he also says the concern
he had about Violet Ellison's credibility is why he supports
the call for a new trial. After my first conversation
(17:16):
with Jeff Wallace in twenty twenty one, I did a
lot more investigating into Violet Ellison. I asked to speak
with Jeff again because I wanted to share everything.
Speaker 12 (17:27):
That I learned.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
We also found that, in addition to being a witness
in this case, Violet Ellison has been a witness in
four other criminal cases in Jefferson County after a Johnson
couch before, during and after I tell Jeff about the
(17:49):
other cases where Violet Ellison was a witness for the state,
and that the defense accused her of lying to police
and under oath. Was politely, but what I really want
is for Jeff Wallace to hear some clips of what
people are saying about Violet Ellison, the star witness he
(18:11):
put on the stand, the same witness he now has questions.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
About, do you.
Speaker 12 (18:21):
Have any interest in listening to what we found? You don't?
I find that like astonishing. I don't know. Can you please?
Can you explain why you don't want to hear what
we found.
Speaker 6 (18:35):
I'm not the prosecuting attorney in the case, or for
that matter, of the defending attorney, of course I couldn't be.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
But yeah, but Jeff, I mean, you tried this case
and you asked the jury to sentence him to death,
and he's on death row.
Speaker 6 (18:56):
That was the state of the evidence when I was
standing on the court run.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
The evidence hasn't changed in your mind after what we've
told you.
Speaker 6 (19:08):
No, I think evidence has change, but that's no longer
my responsibility.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
In a way, He's right. The responsibility of all death
row cases after conviction falls to Alabama's Attorney General, an
elected position that represents the entire state, unlike district attorneys
who represent a single county. The current Attorney General in
Alabama is Steve Marshall. He could listen to Danny Carr
(19:40):
and Jeff Wallace and allow a new trial for to
Forrest Johnson, but instead, the AG's office calls this a
subjective opinion that does not raise an issue of extraordinary
public importance or any compelling circumstances. Marshall's office is still
actively and aggressively fighting to Forest's appeals and seeking his execution.
(20:13):
These conflicting positions make me think of those big metal
grain silos that you see in the Midwest, with each
party in our criminal justice system in its own silo,
isolated from the opposing view, trapped in their official position.
(20:34):
I talk with Jeff Wallace about this dynamic. It does
seem like there are a lot of silos that people
are in in the system, and.
Speaker 12 (20:50):
They stay in those silos. Does that make sense?
Speaker 8 (20:53):
It does.
Speaker 6 (20:56):
And if a silo is a thing that you cannot
climb out of, then that's where I am. I've told
you what I think. If it were legal and it
were presented to me, Uh, would you or would you
not order a new trial? Mister Wallace, I would sign
it today in order a new trial. But the thing
you're calling a silo, my silo is a retired former
(21:17):
prosecutor who happened to have been in charge of this
case at one time.
Speaker 12 (21:22):
So why can't you climb out of the silo?
Speaker 6 (21:26):
What silo would I climb into? I can't be a
repellate judge, I can't be a defendant's attorney. I can't
be a juror can't be the defendant.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
What if we just all climb out of our silos
and nobody's in a silo.
Speaker 12 (21:42):
Anymore, If we're all just kind of out in the open.
Speaker 6 (21:47):
Well, the law has set up these silos and the
law is still in effect.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Yeah, there's this quote on the outside of the Jefferson
County Courthouse.
Speaker 6 (21:57):
That we are in bondage to the law in order
that we may be free.
Speaker 12 (22:01):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
We are in bondage to the law in order that
we may be free. It's a quote from Roman philosopher Cicero.
Speaker 12 (22:11):
Why do we have to be in bondage to something
to be free?
Speaker 6 (22:14):
Either we have laws or we don't. Which way do
you want it?
Speaker 1 (22:20):
I guess one thing that we've been thinking about is like,
what is the cost of that bondage? And is it
that sometimes you end up with situations like this?
Speaker 6 (22:35):
I sure hope not. But the law is the law.
No one want to present me that piece of paper
and ask me whether I would order a new trial.
I'm in bondage to the law.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
You may see Wallace's support for a new trial as
a half measure. He could call the case an injustice
and take more accountability for his role into Forrest's conviction.
But a trial prosecutor saying anything that calls a conviction
into question is exceptional. There's no incentive for Jeff Wallace
(23:22):
to say a word, no framework for prosecutors to voice
doubt or space for regrets to count. And yet Jeff
Wallace still chose to speak up when he didn't have
to say anything at all. In this project, we tried
(23:50):
to answer the question of how an innocent man ended
up on death row. We laid bare an investigation that
was rushed to conclusion by tunnel vision and pressure to
convict someone, anyone, for the murder of a deputy sheriff.
This case shows us how young, marginalized people like Yolanda
(24:11):
Chambers can be exploited, and how money is wielded as
an incentive for vulnerable people to become ensnared with law enforcement.
It also demonstrates the terrible consequences for people who can't
afford to pay for the best criminal defense. So far,
(24:32):
the courts have said there was nothing illegal about what
the state did, presenting five different theories about who committed
the murder, and paying the key witness behind closed doors,
only admitting to this payment seventeen years later. This is
(24:52):
how our system works. According to the courts that have
examined to forrest Johnson's conviction. It's not broken. It's working
exactly as designed.
Speaker 8 (25:10):
They say that you've presumed innocent until proven guilty, and
that is the law.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Former Attorney General Bill Baxley but.
Speaker 8 (25:20):
Deep down people don't believe somebody is innocent until they've
proven guilty beyond regional doubt. They think that they had
to do something or they wouldn't have been arrested, and
wouldn't have been indicted, and wouldn't be there.
Speaker 11 (25:37):
Not only do they presume people guilty, but they look
at these people as expendable.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Richard Jaffey, who represented Ardregis Ford, when.
Speaker 11 (25:46):
The system failed to Forrest Johnson, it betrayed all of us.
Speaker 7 (25:53):
To fars.
Speaker 11 (25:53):
Johnson is as innocent as anyone could possibly be. Deputy
Hardy would never want the wrong person to be convicted
for his murder.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
After Jeffy's client, Ordregus Ford, was acquitted, he lived a
quiet life, mostly in Atlanta. His mother, Joyce Ford said
to Forrest's conviction wade on her son.
Speaker 9 (26:22):
He never talked about it. He was strong, He never
talked about it. But you know, you know he would
get quiet at times. He will be rolling in the wheelchairs,
go sit quiet with his head. Now, you know, it
took him a while to try to overcome it. You
never overcome it, but so you know he had his days,
(26:47):
you know, through it all, through the grace of God.
Speaker 7 (26:51):
It too.
Speaker 9 (26:52):
It was a long, hard bell, but I would never
wish that on a mother.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Ardregis died from health issues in twenty twenty one. His mom,
Joyce Ford, died less than a year after we recorded
this interview. I've been reporting onto Forest's case since twenty nineteen.
(27:29):
I've interviewed dozens of people, but the one person I'd
still most like to talk to is the very person
I can't reach. Alabama's prison system doesn't allow people on
death row to talk to journalists to Forest's family has
shared dozens of digital photos with me that I've kept
(27:51):
in a folder on my laptop. There's to Forest as
a baby wearing a tiny suit, as a skinny kid
wearing a bowtie, and so many photos from visits at
Holman Prison with his arms around his family. And I
know the closest I can get to him is through
(28:11):
the people he loves the most, his kids.
Speaker 4 (28:51):
Podcast.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
And I've been, you know, writing about your dad's case
for about two years now. So I'm so happy to
finally see y'all in me y'all and.
Speaker 12 (29:00):
You get to hang out with you, especially.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
In October of twenty twenty one, I asked to Forest
kids if we could all get together and talk. So
we meet up on a Saturday afternoon at his oldest daughter,
Shanee Pool's place. It's a light filled condo in downtown Birmingham.
Her golden doodle named Banks, meanders around wagging his tail
(29:24):
at everyone, and his kids immediately start to share memories
of their dad.
Speaker 9 (29:31):
I remember going and real Eliza how short he was.
Speaker 5 (29:34):
Though he's so short when we took a picture on
side of each other.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
He's so short, you like tower omer daddy, and I'm
his same height. I'm Sanee Pool. I am the oldest
daughter of the forest.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
Shane has his smile.
Speaker 5 (29:53):
I'm Maurice Myers and I'm the fourth oldest that's far.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
His son Maurice Myers has his eyes and nose.
Speaker 5 (30:06):
Tremayan Pierre, I'm the oldest.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Cub, his oldest child, Tremaine Perry has his voice and laugh.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
And I'm a Kirio Lalla in him the baby cub.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
And Akiria, who goes by Muffin. His youngest looks like
she could be a twin to t Forest and his
younger years. To Forest has one other son named Robbie Foster,
but he was unable to join us for this gathering
because he was living in Colorado at the time. He
also looks like his father's twin. An inside joke is
(30:43):
these siblings all share a common attribute from their dad.
Speaker 7 (30:48):
My head.
Speaker 5 (30:49):
Man, we all got these big heads.
Speaker 12 (30:50):
If you haven't known, it's forehead.
Speaker 5 (30:52):
That's what's really big, is the forehead. He blessed us
all that. That's why I grew my hair. So I
(31:13):
know I was the oldest old I saw maybe a
lot more than they did, you know what I mean,
But it I knew what was going on, like when
I stopped seeing 'em. You know what I'm saying, Cause
they told me, like.
Speaker 12 (31:26):
Right off the bat, So how old were you when
he brub about.
Speaker 5 (31:29):
Six or seven?
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Okay, this is Tremaine, the oldest cub.
Speaker 5 (31:35):
I was getting ready to to ask my mom to
take me to my pop's house, like I wanna go,
s I wanna go with my daddy this weekend. And
she's like, you won't be able to go this weekend
cause you won't. He not gonna be there, So like,
what you mean where he at? I wait on to
come back. She's like, nah, it might be a minute
before he come back. And that's when I end up
(31:56):
calling my grandma and she just let me know what
was going on just right then, and that, like that
kid kind of killed my spirits, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 4 (32:05):
I don't.
Speaker 5 (32:06):
I'm thinking like, if he ain't doing nothing wrong, then
while he gone, I could never get an answer for that.
Nobody could ever answer that, you know what I'm saying.
So just knowing that this man is set behind balls
twenty plus years for something that he didn't do, like
that's heartbreaking. Yeah, You'll think. You have to think about
(32:29):
how life would be if it hadn't happen, if things
could be reversed. You think about a lot of stuff,
But you can never get that, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Shaney also remembers trying to put the pieces together about
why she had to go to the prison to see
her dad.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
So I'm home with my mom and then I go
visit my dad. But I didn't realize that that wasn't
normal until we to grade school and I see children
with their two parents home, and so now I'm like, Okay,
this is something that's not This is not adding up
something that's not right, So, you know, help me understand
what's happening, and then it's like, Okay, well he's away,
but he's innocent, So what is innocent mean.
Speaker 11 (33:16):
I'm a kid.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
I don't understand what that means. He's there for something
that he didn't do. Okay, well, why can't he just
come home then? And so then I begin to get
frustrated with him because I'm like, Okay, well, if you
didn't do it, then you could just come home. But
clearly it doesn't work that way. And then as I
got older.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
Even though their father wasn't at home to Forrest's kids
didn't stop seeing him. They would get in the car
with their grandmother, Donna, to Forrest's mother to make the
two hundred and ten mile drive from Birmingham to Holman Prison,
three hours each way.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
I just remember I always riding there's all right, oh my,
And I was so young and I was like, oh.
Speaker 5 (33:58):
My, this is the mob is It's almost like you're
driving the floorda going down there is in the middle
of nowhere, is no really no roll like the lead
anywhell out there.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Yeah, we took those trips in Alabama. Visits with men
on death row are done in the visiting yard the
same area to Forrest met with his attorney Tie. It's
called the yard, but it's indoors, like a big cafeteria
lined with vending machines and Grandma.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
So what I remember is quarters. Grandma used to have
a sage.
Speaker 12 (34:38):
The freezer bags.
Speaker 5 (34:41):
Full of quarters of nickels, all the change we can get.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
But before they got into the prison to see their
dad with the big bag of quarters so everyone could
get their favorite snacks and candy from the prison yard
vending machines to Forest's kids had to go through prison
security where guards searched them and patted them down.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Look at thinking back on them up And I didn't
really think about this until now, just kind of how
violating it kind of was with them because they had
to search us like the same way. Yeah, and we
were children basically touching I love you, And I was
just like, yeah, this is a little weird. I'm not
comfortable with your touching me. I mean, I'm just a kid.
(35:28):
I'm not bringing nothing in here. So it was just
real violating. I was like, I really don't want to
come back, but I want to so I can see
my dad. I just don't want you to touch me.
But and we couldn't you know, touch him whenever we
were in there. So of course, you know, you want
to sit on your dad's lap, You want to lay
on them and hug on them, and you can't do that.
You have to keep your distance from each other. And
(35:50):
like Tremaine said, there's never enough time. It always seems
like it's just we just got here and you gotta
turn back around and get on the road trip again.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
The visits were just a few hours once a month
at most, but it's where and how they got to
know their father. Their relationships with their father are marked
by both his absence and his presence. They admire his strength,
(36:23):
the way he loves to hear about their lives when
they talk on the phone, and how he never makes
them feel like their problems are small when.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
He calls you and you just want to talk about
the good things. And he's lived these life tuessas ayes,
So now what's really going on? Like I can hear
it in your voice, okay, princess. So I'm not right,
And I'd never like to tell him anything bad because
he's just there's nothing that he could do. But he's like,
this is my way of being a father to you.
This is how I can parent you to allow me
(36:54):
to do that, And then you feel so much better
after you talk to him about it.
Speaker 12 (36:58):
Yes, he's gonna make you laugh. He's gonna make you laugh.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
I'd be like, Okay, I'm not mad anymore.
Speaker 12 (37:05):
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Right, And then it's hard to be mad, you know,
it's hard to be angry or mad or kind of
self sulk.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Because and you think about his situation.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Right, and he always asks, so what you eat? I
never want to tell him what I ate for dinner,
never because.
Speaker 14 (37:22):
It's I hate telling.
Speaker 5 (37:24):
I know he can't eat the same, you know what
I'm saying.
Speaker 12 (37:27):
Yeah, but he wants to know what you made.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
He wants to know, or he wants like what we
did today, Like if you if you would be on
the phone with Tremado Maurice. Yeah, I talked to Tremado Maurice,
uh the other day and they were out somewhere, but
he won't say they were. He like we were so
Like he's living through my brothers, like whatever they do,
he thinks like he's out with them.
Speaker 14 (37:46):
Yeah, we're human bodies like we are have been affected.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
These are men that missed out on their father raising them.
These he's missed the birth of multiple grandchildren. He's miss
milestones us completing college and getting our first big girl
jobs and purchasing our first homes. Like these are really
important things that he has missed out on. And so
you have space and you have time between all of
us that we literally cannot get back. Like there's nothing
(38:26):
that we could do about it. And so at the
least that you could do is take uh, be accountable
for what was done. And I think that that's all
we're asking for at this point. We're not trying to
point the finger at anybody. We just we want true
justice to be served and we just want him to
come home and for there to be some type of
(38:48):
accountability held. And it's frustrating, it's disheartening, but it's like, well,
we just gotta keep fighting because we gotta fight for daddy.
We gotta fight to get Daddy home. I think we've
bypassed a point of pointing the finger, and and you know,
we're still hurting, we're still angry, we're still confused. I
have said, we have a lot of emotions, but we
just want him to come home.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Why is to Forest Johnson still on Alabama's death row?
Why is he still locked in a cell when so
many people, including the prosecutor who argued to put him there,
are calling for a new trial. In early October twenty
twenty three, the United States Supreme Court announced it would
(39:34):
not review to Forrest Johnson's case, but to Forest's legal
team continues to fight for him. They have appeals pending
in both state and federal courts. This is where we
find ourselves unable to tell you how this story ends.
I plan to stay here with de Forest, his family,
(39:58):
his children, his lawyers, and everyone else who believes in
him will continue to hold him in the light of truth.
Speaker 12 (40:10):
This is a free call from before.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
An incarcerated individual at Alabama Department of Corrections.
Speaker 12 (40:19):
That call is not private.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
It will be recorded and maybe minderg you may start
the conversation.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
Now, Hey Daddy, Hey President, Hi, what you doing?
Speaker 13 (40:32):
I'm good?
Speaker 6 (40:32):
How was your day?
Speaker 2 (40:34):
It was good?
Speaker 4 (40:35):
Long today. Still trying to get used to.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
To Forrest calls his family from prison whenever he can,
but his oldest daughter, Shaney, also keeps his cards and
letters in a k Swiss shoe box under her bed.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
If I had to describe this card, there is a
bee hive on the front with a few bees buzzing around,
and it's dated January fifth, two thousand and three.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
Like all the people who love to Forrest Johnson, his
five kids and fifteen grandkids, his mother Donna, his aunts,
uncles and cousins, they read the words he sent them
over the years when they need to hold him close.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
It reads, I love you and can't wait to see
you and hold you in my arms again. You underlined
are the reason Daddy has a spirit to get up
every day and has hope that there would be a
better day up ahead for me. And he says, Shaney,
(41:56):
Daddy wants you to be a good young lady and
do what your mother asks of you. I love you
and I hope to see you again real soon.
Speaker 9 (42:08):
Be good?
Speaker 3 (42:08):
All right.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
To learn more about the fight to free to Forest Johnson,
sign up for updates and learn how you can help,
visit the website created by Greater Birmingham Ministries for to Forest.
It's to Forest Johnson dot com. And a special thanks
to the family of to Forest Johnson who have generously
(42:46):
shared so much for this series. Ear Witness is a
(43:08):
production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company.
Number One. Executive producers are Jason Flom, Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wardis,
and me Beth Shelburn. The investigative reporting for this series
was done by Me and Mara McNamara. Producers are MARAA. McNamara,
(43:29):
Hannah Bial and Jackie Polly. Kara Kornhaber is our senior producer.
Britt Spangler is our sound designer. Additional story editing from
Marie Sutton, fact checkhelp from Catherine Newhan, and special thanks
to to Forrest Johnson's legal defense team. You can follow
(43:50):
the show on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and Twitter at Lava
for Good. To see behind the scenes content from our investigation,
visit Lava for Good dot com slash ear Witness
Last time on ear witness.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
She was a very credible witness.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
We believed her.
Speaker 4 (00:17):
Obviously, we believed her because we convicted him and it
was on her testimony.
Speaker 5 (00:21):
The only evidence supposedly they had against was this ear
witness who had never heard him speak before, who had
no idea who he was.
Speaker 6 (00:31):
That is extremely strongly evidence. Che Fish believed. Of course,
the question would come, so you believe that evidence. Well,
to believe that evidence, she had to please. There's Ellison,
and so.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
We're trying to get information on her. Her name's Violet Ellison.
Do you have an opinion about her or have any
any information that you could give us about her.
Speaker 7 (00:51):
I know she's ververy condicted. She's a very messy lady,
very messy.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
I tell you one thing about my grandma.
Speaker 8 (01:01):
She is a that's a true scam artist.
Speaker 4 (01:04):
That's a true I hate to see it. I know
that's my grandmother. That's a true.
Speaker 5 (01:07):
Scam audi death.
Speaker 9 (01:09):
And I hate that this man could be innocent and
for five.
Speaker 10 (01:14):
Thousand dollars, he's on this for five thousand dollars.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Near the intersection of Rosa Parks Avenue and Liberty Street
in Montgomery, Alabama, is a tiny red brick church outside
Saint Peter Ame. A large white banner is stretched twenty
five feet across the church's front lawn. The words It's
not too late to fix this mistake are written across
(02:01):
the banner in black and red letters. The mistake is
to forrest Johnson's conviction. The banner was created by an
(02:26):
organization called Greater Birmingham Ministries. This year, it has traveled
to eight different churches across Alabama to help raise awareness
about to Forest's case. Awareness that is growing.
Speaker 7 (02:42):
Holy cow, it's just ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
This case is shameful.
Speaker 11 (02:48):
My name is Lindsay Boney. I'm a lawyer at the
law firm Bradley Ariant Bolt Cummings. When I think about
this case, it's mind blowing to me.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
My name is Carla Crowner. I'm a lawyer and executive
director at Alabama Appleseed Center for Law and Justice. This
case is stunning and this case is heartbreaking.
Speaker 7 (03:12):
My name is Nick Gaeti.
Speaker 6 (03:13):
I have been an active lawyer in Birmingham since nineteen
sixty four. We can do better, and we need to
do better.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Lots of people have known for a very long time
that this man is innocent and he's still on death row.
Why does it take twenty five years?
Speaker 1 (03:35):
These are just a few in the chorus of powerful
voices calling on the state to fix this. Lawyers from
all sides of the political spectrum are lending their support,
along with former prosecutors and judges, as well as Alabama
churches and faith leaders like sister Helen Prajean.
Speaker 9 (03:56):
Please God, with these efforts and people hearing this about
too Forrest, his life will be saved.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Even death penalty supporter Bill Baxley, Alabama's former attorney General,
has joined the fight.
Speaker 8 (04:14):
I will add my voice or anything I can do,
because this is a situation that shouldn't be allowed to
exist another minute.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
When Baxley reviewed to Forrest's case, he was so outraged
he wrote an op ed in The Washington Post that said,
an innocent man is trapped on Alabama's death row.
Speaker 8 (04:41):
The only thing that I can see is to why
this kind of thing happened, was the victim was a
law enforcement laws.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
To Forrest Johnson now has unpressed, incidented support, and it's
not just from all these people who believe he's innocent.
The current District Attorney of Jefferson County, along with the
original prosecutor who sent him to death row. Both now
say to Forrest Johnson deserves a new trial, So why
(05:23):
is the State of Alabama still trying to kill him?
I'm Beth Shelburne. This is ear witness, Chapter eight Bondage
to the Law. Okay, how are you I I'm good.
Speaker 12 (06:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
I'm meeting with District Attorney Danny Carr, but not at
his office in the courthouse. We're at the barber shop
he owns in Birmingham's Insley community where he grew.
Speaker 13 (06:27):
Up from the Ansley community where we are today. I'm
matriculated through the Birmingham City school system.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
The barbershop is old school tile floors, posters of hairstyles
on the walls, and a sign advertising ten dollars haircuts?
Can you talk while he's buzzing? I don't normally interview
prosecutors while they're getting a haircut, but Danny Carr is
(06:58):
a busy man. In twenty eighteen, when he was elected
District Attorney of Jefferson County, he became the first black
man to hold the position. He now runs the same
office that argued for to Forest Johnson to be sentenced
to death for Deputy Bill Hardy's murder. But Danny Carr
(07:19):
wasn't part of to Forest's prosecution. He wasn't even a
lawyer yet when it happened. Danny Carr is different from
other das in a number of ways. He ran as
a change maker. He put together the first conviction review
unit in Jefferson County. The unit's job is to review
(07:40):
cases where the DA's office might have made some mistakes.
He's one of only three black das among the forty
two across Alabama. He grew up in a community that's
been impacted by crime and mass incarceration. His family has
(08:00):
also been a victim of violence. The year he was
hired as a young prosecutor, Danny's younger brother, Jaxton, was murdered.
Danny named his barbershop D and Jay in his brother's memory.
D for Danny, J for Jackston. Can you kind of
walk me through your involvement in the to Forest Johnson case?
(08:23):
When did you first become aware of it?
Speaker 13 (08:25):
I became aware of it when I was an assistant
DA conversations about it, but I didn't know true to
the facts of it.
Speaker 7 (08:33):
I just overheard different.
Speaker 13 (08:34):
Conversations varying opinions about it, and then what happened.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Once Danny was elected as DA, he started hearing more
about to Forest's case as a possible wrongful conviction, and
the year after Danny was elected, to Forest's case was
back in court. This was the hearing I covered the
first time I reported on to forest case, where his
attorneys argued that Violet Ellison testified in pursuit of the
(09:03):
reward money and the state hid it. I saw Danny
Carr at the hearing, but he told me he wasn't
ready yet to comment on the case.
Speaker 13 (09:13):
When it's that end, I didn't know, you know, who
was telling the truth of what was right what was wrong.
I just listened and it was apparent that if some
of that stuff was true, then it was concerning.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
So after the hearing, Danny decided to conduct a full
review of to Forrest's conviction. For nine months, he read
through the trial transcripts as well as the documents that
prosecutors had claimed were misfiled. He was troubled by the
five thousand dollars reward payment given to Violet Ellison that
(09:47):
the jury didn't even know was a possibility.
Speaker 7 (09:51):
Well, if that information was not disclosed then the process
was flawed, and that the process was flawed, then the
end result is not truly the end result, because to
get to the end result, the process has to be fair.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Danny also talked to people involved, including alibi witnesses, but
perhaps the most significant person, Danny Carr consulted the original prosecutor,
Jeff Wallace, the same prosecutor who asked two juries to
sentence to Forrest to death. It turns out Jeff Wallace
(10:29):
had his own questions about the credibility of his star witness,
Violet Ellison, going back fifteen years.
Speaker 6 (10:39):
I observed something that triggered in my mind, indeed to
report this to the defense. I don't know if you
know about that or not. What did you observe after
the conviction and symbols?
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Several years after to Forrest was convicted, Jeff said he
was passing through a courtroom during a trial of a
drug dealer. Jeff Wallace wasn't prosecuting the case. He just
needed to ask the bailiff a question.
Speaker 6 (11:08):
And as I left the bailiff station, which of course
in the front of the courtroom, I'm walking out and
happened to notice in the spectators area on the front row,
the defendant's wife being consoled by our chief witness in
the Johnson case in Milson, miss Ellison. That's right. In
(11:31):
my mind, that conduct was inconsistent with the picture that
I had of miss Ellison at the time of trial.
She seemed to me to be only a mother trying
to do the best thing for her daughter, and happened
to overhear a telephone conversation, and that record that the
(11:53):
notes that she made of that telephone conversation became important
in the trial of mister Johnson, as you know, So
her credibility as the citizen she was, I think was
important because she was the case. She is the case.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
To be clear, I'm not sure what consoling a suspected
drug dealer's wife has to do with Violet Ellison's credibility
into Forrest's case, but Jeff said it left him with
an unsettling impression about his star witness, a realization that
there were things about her he didn't know.
Speaker 6 (12:43):
So seeing her being so close to the wife of
a man that everybody knew was a major drug dealer
disturbed to that image in my mind, I thought, well,
I'm going to report that to the other to the defense,
and he did.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
In two thousand and seven, Jeff Wallace talked to to
Forest's legal team about what he saw. They looked into
the information, but so far it hasn't led to any
new legal claims for to Forest. Fast forward thirteen years
and Danny Carr calls on Jeff Wallace to talk about
the conviction of to Forest Johnson. Jeff shares his concerns
(13:27):
about Violet Ellison's credibility, and then he does something that
makes a major impression on Danny. Jeff Wallace says he
believes to Forest should be granted a new trial. This
incredible development pushes Danny to take public action.
Speaker 7 (13:47):
Your job is not to get convictions. Your job is
to seek the truth.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
But Danny has one more important call to make to
Deputy Bill Hardy's family. He braces himself, it's never easy
for a prosecutor to talk to a victim's family about
unsettling the conviction and their loved one's murder. But he
picks up the phone and calls Deputy Hardy's widow, Patricia
(14:13):
Dianne Hardy.
Speaker 13 (14:15):
And I called her.
Speaker 7 (14:15):
She said, look, she said, I know your mom. I
know you.
Speaker 13 (14:18):
Bennoying since she was a little boy. She said, you know,
I trust you, and whatever decision you make, I'm fine
with it. But I trust you and you can't get
any better. And that's what you want from people.
Speaker 7 (14:34):
Period.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
And then Danny Carr does something extraordinary, something that almost
never happens. He files a brief with the Jefferson County Court,
writing that his duty to seek justice requires intervention in
the case of to Forest Johnson. He asks Judge Pullyam
(14:57):
to throw out to Forrest's conviction and order a new trial,
and he includes that the original prosecutor, Jeff Wallace, supports
this call for a new trial. Of all the capital
murder cases that you've looked at, you've tried, you've been
familiar with as DA, how do you see this case?
(15:18):
How would you describe it in the context of all
the cases you've seen.
Speaker 7 (15:25):
I think it's the worst case.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
I spoke with Jeff Wallace about his support for a
new trial. I think you joining the district attorney is
a powerful statement from a former prosecutor in a capital case.
I can't remember, in my reporting of over twenty years,
(15:48):
ever seeing that or hearing about it.
Speaker 6 (15:51):
Oh, I'm sure I'm not the first.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Jeff seemed to want to downplay the significance of his
support for a new trial. But this this is seriously rare.
I looked for other cases like this and reached out
to experts who study wrongful convictions. Nobody could remember a
death penalty case in any state where the original trial
(16:15):
prosecutor called for a new trial. I interviewed Jeff Wallace
three different times, with four hours of on the record conversations.
Jeff was accessible and generous with his time, but he
was also careful with his words.
Speaker 6 (16:33):
I still am personally satisfied that the evidence showed to
Forrest Johnson to be yilty. Of course, my opinion is
based in a large part on the testimony of the
Violet Ellison that I saw at trial. But there's a
in my opinion, there's a reason to look at it again.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
This is what I mean by careful. He says the
evidence at trial showed to Forrest to be guilty based
on Violet Ellison's testimony, but he also says the concern
he had about Violet Ellison's credibility is why he supports
the call for a new trial. After my first conversation
(17:16):
with Jeff Wallace in twenty twenty one, I did a
lot more investigating into Violet Ellison. I asked to speak
with Jeff again because I wanted to share everything.
Speaker 12 (17:27):
That I learned.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
We also found that, in addition to being a witness
in this case, Violet Ellison has been a witness in
four other criminal cases in Jefferson County after a Johnson
couch before, during and after I tell Jeff about the
(17:49):
other cases where Violet Ellison was a witness for the state,
and that the defense accused her of lying to police
and under oath. Was politely, but what I really want
is for Jeff Wallace to hear some clips of what
people are saying about Violet Ellison, the star witness he
(18:11):
put on the stand, the same witness he now has questions.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
About, do you.
Speaker 12 (18:21):
Have any interest in listening to what we found? You don't?
I find that like astonishing. I don't know. Can you please?
Can you explain why you don't want to hear what
we found.
Speaker 6 (18:35):
I'm not the prosecuting attorney in the case, or for
that matter, of the defending attorney, of course I couldn't be.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
But yeah, but Jeff, I mean, you tried this case
and you asked the jury to sentence him to death,
and he's on death row.
Speaker 6 (18:56):
That was the state of the evidence when I was
standing on the court run.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
The evidence hasn't changed in your mind after what we've
told you.
Speaker 6 (19:08):
No, I think evidence has change, but that's no longer
my responsibility.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
In a way, He's right. The responsibility of all death
row cases after conviction falls to Alabama's Attorney General, an
elected position that represents the entire state, unlike district attorneys
who represent a single county. The current Attorney General in
Alabama is Steve Marshall. He could listen to Danny Carr
(19:40):
and Jeff Wallace and allow a new trial for to
Forrest Johnson, but instead, the AG's office calls this a
subjective opinion that does not raise an issue of extraordinary
public importance or any compelling circumstances. Marshall's office is still
actively and aggressively fighting to Forest's appeals and seeking his execution.
(20:13):
These conflicting positions make me think of those big metal
grain silos that you see in the Midwest, with each
party in our criminal justice system in its own silo,
isolated from the opposing view, trapped in their official position.
(20:34):
I talk with Jeff Wallace about this dynamic. It does
seem like there are a lot of silos that people
are in in the system, and.
Speaker 12 (20:50):
They stay in those silos. Does that make sense?
Speaker 8 (20:53):
It does.
Speaker 6 (20:56):
And if a silo is a thing that you cannot
climb out of, then that's where I am. I've told
you what I think. If it were legal and it
were presented to me, Uh, would you or would you
not order a new trial? Mister Wallace, I would sign
it today in order a new trial. But the thing
you're calling a silo, my silo is a retired former
(21:17):
prosecutor who happened to have been in charge of this
case at one time.
Speaker 12 (21:22):
So why can't you climb out of the silo?
Speaker 6 (21:26):
What silo would I climb into? I can't be a
repellate judge, I can't be a defendant's attorney. I can't
be a juror can't be the defendant.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
What if we just all climb out of our silos
and nobody's in a silo.
Speaker 12 (21:42):
Anymore, If we're all just kind of out in the open.
Speaker 6 (21:47):
Well, the law has set up these silos and the
law is still in effect.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Yeah, there's this quote on the outside of the Jefferson
County Courthouse.
Speaker 6 (21:57):
That we are in bondage to the law in order
that we may be free.
Speaker 12 (22:01):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
We are in bondage to the law in order that
we may be free. It's a quote from Roman philosopher Cicero.
Speaker 12 (22:11):
Why do we have to be in bondage to something
to be free?
Speaker 6 (22:14):
Either we have laws or we don't. Which way do
you want it?
Speaker 1 (22:20):
I guess one thing that we've been thinking about is like,
what is the cost of that bondage? And is it
that sometimes you end up with situations like this?
Speaker 6 (22:35):
I sure hope not. But the law is the law.
No one want to present me that piece of paper
and ask me whether I would order a new trial.
I'm in bondage to the law.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
You may see Wallace's support for a new trial as
a half measure. He could call the case an injustice
and take more accountability for his role into Forrest's conviction.
But a trial prosecutor saying anything that calls a conviction
into question is exceptional. There's no incentive for Jeff Wallace
(23:22):
to say a word, no framework for prosecutors to voice
doubt or space for regrets to count. And yet Jeff
Wallace still chose to speak up when he didn't have
to say anything at all. In this project, we tried
(23:50):
to answer the question of how an innocent man ended
up on death row. We laid bare an investigation that
was rushed to conclusion by tunnel vision and pressure to
convict someone, anyone, for the murder of a deputy sheriff.
This case shows us how young, marginalized people like Yolanda
(24:11):
Chambers can be exploited, and how money is wielded as
an incentive for vulnerable people to become ensnared with law enforcement.
It also demonstrates the terrible consequences for people who can't
afford to pay for the best criminal defense. So far,
(24:32):
the courts have said there was nothing illegal about what
the state did, presenting five different theories about who committed
the murder, and paying the key witness behind closed doors,
only admitting to this payment seventeen years later. This is
(24:52):
how our system works. According to the courts that have
examined to forrest Johnson's conviction. It's not broken. It's working
exactly as designed.
Speaker 8 (25:10):
They say that you've presumed innocent until proven guilty, and
that is the law.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Former Attorney General Bill Baxley but.
Speaker 8 (25:20):
Deep down people don't believe somebody is innocent until they've
proven guilty beyond regional doubt. They think that they had
to do something or they wouldn't have been arrested, and
wouldn't have been indicted, and wouldn't be there.
Speaker 11 (25:37):
Not only do they presume people guilty, but they look
at these people as expendable.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Richard Jaffey, who represented Ardregis Ford, when.
Speaker 11 (25:46):
The system failed to Forrest Johnson, it betrayed all of us.
Speaker 7 (25:53):
To fars.
Speaker 11 (25:53):
Johnson is as innocent as anyone could possibly be. Deputy
Hardy would never want the wrong person to be convicted
for his murder.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
After Jeffy's client, Ordregus Ford, was acquitted, he lived a
quiet life, mostly in Atlanta. His mother, Joyce Ford said
to Forrest's conviction wade on her son.
Speaker 9 (26:22):
He never talked about it. He was strong, He never
talked about it. But you know, you know he would
get quiet at times. He will be rolling in the wheelchairs,
go sit quiet with his head. Now, you know, it
took him a while to try to overcome it. You
never overcome it, but so you know he had his days,
(26:47):
you know, through it all, through the grace of God.
Speaker 7 (26:51):
It too.
Speaker 9 (26:52):
It was a long, hard bell, but I would never
wish that on a mother.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Ardregis died from health issues in twenty twenty one. His mom,
Joyce Ford, died less than a year after we recorded
this interview. I've been reporting onto Forest's case since twenty nineteen.
(27:29):
I've interviewed dozens of people, but the one person I'd
still most like to talk to is the very person
I can't reach. Alabama's prison system doesn't allow people on
death row to talk to journalists to Forest's family has
shared dozens of digital photos with me that I've kept
(27:51):
in a folder on my laptop. There's to Forest as
a baby wearing a tiny suit, as a skinny kid
wearing a bowtie, and so many photos from visits at
Holman Prison with his arms around his family. And I
know the closest I can get to him is through
(28:11):
the people he loves the most, his kids.
Speaker 4 (28:51):
Podcast.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
And I've been, you know, writing about your dad's case
for about two years now. So I'm so happy to
finally see y'all in me y'all and.
Speaker 12 (29:00):
You get to hang out with you, especially.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
In October of twenty twenty one, I asked to Forest
kids if we could all get together and talk. So
we meet up on a Saturday afternoon at his oldest daughter,
Shanee Pool's place. It's a light filled condo in downtown Birmingham.
Her golden doodle named Banks, meanders around wagging his tail
(29:24):
at everyone, and his kids immediately start to share memories
of their dad.
Speaker 9 (29:31):
I remember going and real Eliza how short he was.
Speaker 5 (29:34):
Though he's so short when we took a picture on
side of each other.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
He's so short, you like tower omer daddy, and I'm
his same height. I'm Sanee Pool. I am the oldest
daughter of the forest.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
Shane has his smile.
Speaker 5 (29:53):
I'm Maurice Myers and I'm the fourth oldest that's far.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
His son Maurice Myers has his eyes and nose.
Speaker 5 (30:06):
Tremayan Pierre, I'm the oldest.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Cub, his oldest child, Tremaine Perry has his voice and laugh.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
And I'm a Kirio Lalla in him the baby cub.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
And Akiria, who goes by Muffin. His youngest looks like
she could be a twin to t Forest and his
younger years. To Forest has one other son named Robbie Foster,
but he was unable to join us for this gathering
because he was living in Colorado at the time. He
also looks like his father's twin. An inside joke is
(30:43):
these siblings all share a common attribute from their dad.
Speaker 7 (30:48):
My head.
Speaker 5 (30:49):
Man, we all got these big heads.
Speaker 12 (30:50):
If you haven't known, it's forehead.
Speaker 5 (30:52):
That's what's really big, is the forehead. He blessed us
all that. That's why I grew my hair. So I
(31:13):
know I was the oldest old I saw maybe a
lot more than they did, you know what I mean,
But it I knew what was going on, like when
I stopped seeing 'em. You know what I'm saying, Cause
they told me, like.
Speaker 12 (31:26):
Right off the bat, So how old were you when
he brub about.
Speaker 5 (31:29):
Six or seven?
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Okay, this is Tremaine, the oldest cub.
Speaker 5 (31:35):
I was getting ready to to ask my mom to
take me to my pop's house, like I wanna go,
s I wanna go with my daddy this weekend. And
she's like, you won't be able to go this weekend
cause you won't. He not gonna be there, So like,
what you mean where he at? I wait on to
come back. She's like, nah, it might be a minute
before he come back. And that's when I end up
(31:56):
calling my grandma and she just let me know what
was going on just right then, and that, like that
kid kind of killed my spirits, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 4 (32:05):
I don't.
Speaker 5 (32:06):
I'm thinking like, if he ain't doing nothing wrong, then
while he gone, I could never get an answer for that.
Nobody could ever answer that, you know what I'm saying.
So just knowing that this man is set behind balls
twenty plus years for something that he didn't do, like
that's heartbreaking. Yeah, You'll think. You have to think about
(32:29):
how life would be if it hadn't happen, if things
could be reversed. You think about a lot of stuff,
But you can never get that, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Shaney also remembers trying to put the pieces together about
why she had to go to the prison to see
her dad.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
So I'm home with my mom and then I go
visit my dad. But I didn't realize that that wasn't
normal until we to grade school and I see children
with their two parents home, and so now I'm like, Okay,
this is something that's not This is not adding up
something that's not right, So, you know, help me understand
what's happening, and then it's like, Okay, well he's away,
but he's innocent, So what is innocent mean.
Speaker 11 (33:16):
I'm a kid.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
I don't understand what that means. He's there for something
that he didn't do. Okay, well, why can't he just
come home then? And so then I begin to get
frustrated with him because I'm like, Okay, well, if you
didn't do it, then you could just come home. But
clearly it doesn't work that way. And then as I
got older.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
Even though their father wasn't at home to Forrest's kids
didn't stop seeing him. They would get in the car
with their grandmother, Donna, to Forrest's mother to make the
two hundred and ten mile drive from Birmingham to Holman Prison,
three hours each way.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
I just remember I always riding there's all right, oh my,
And I was so young and I was like, oh.
Speaker 5 (33:58):
My, this is the mob is It's almost like you're
driving the floorda going down there is in the middle
of nowhere, is no really no roll like the lead
anywhell out there.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Yeah, we took those trips in Alabama. Visits with men
on death row are done in the visiting yard the
same area to Forrest met with his attorney Tie. It's
called the yard, but it's indoors, like a big cafeteria
lined with vending machines and Grandma.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
So what I remember is quarters. Grandma used to have
a sage.
Speaker 12 (34:38):
The freezer bags.
Speaker 5 (34:41):
Full of quarters of nickels, all the change we can get.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
But before they got into the prison to see their
dad with the big bag of quarters so everyone could
get their favorite snacks and candy from the prison yard
vending machines to Forest's kids had to go through prison
security where guards searched them and patted them down.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Look at thinking back on them up And I didn't
really think about this until now, just kind of how
violating it kind of was with them because they had
to search us like the same way. Yeah, and we
were children basically touching I love you, And I was
just like, yeah, this is a little weird. I'm not
comfortable with your touching me. I mean, I'm just a kid.
(35:28):
I'm not bringing nothing in here. So it was just
real violating. I was like, I really don't want to
come back, but I want to so I can see
my dad. I just don't want you to touch me.
But and we couldn't you know, touch him whenever we
were in there. So of course, you know, you want
to sit on your dad's lap, You want to lay
on them and hug on them, and you can't do that.
You have to keep your distance from each other. And
(35:50):
like Tremaine said, there's never enough time. It always seems
like it's just we just got here and you gotta
turn back around and get on the road trip again.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
The visits were just a few hours once a month
at most, but it's where and how they got to
know their father. Their relationships with their father are marked
by both his absence and his presence. They admire his strength,
(36:23):
the way he loves to hear about their lives when
they talk on the phone, and how he never makes
them feel like their problems are small when.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
He calls you and you just want to talk about
the good things. And he's lived these life tuessas ayes,
So now what's really going on? Like I can hear
it in your voice, okay, princess. So I'm not right,
And I'd never like to tell him anything bad because
he's just there's nothing that he could do. But he's like,
this is my way of being a father to you.
This is how I can parent you to allow me
(36:54):
to do that, And then you feel so much better
after you talk to him about it.
Speaker 12 (36:58):
Yes, he's gonna make you laugh. He's gonna make you laugh.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
I'd be like, Okay, I'm not mad anymore.
Speaker 12 (37:05):
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Right, And then it's hard to be mad, you know,
it's hard to be angry or mad or kind of
self sulk.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Because and you think about his situation.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Right, and he always asks, so what you eat? I
never want to tell him what I ate for dinner,
never because.
Speaker 14 (37:22):
It's I hate telling.
Speaker 5 (37:24):
I know he can't eat the same, you know what
I'm saying.
Speaker 12 (37:27):
Yeah, but he wants to know what you made.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
He wants to know, or he wants like what we
did today, Like if you if you would be on
the phone with Tremado Maurice. Yeah, I talked to Tremado Maurice,
uh the other day and they were out somewhere, but
he won't say they were. He like we were so
Like he's living through my brothers, like whatever they do,
he thinks like he's out with them.
Speaker 14 (37:46):
Yeah, we're human bodies like we are have been affected.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
These are men that missed out on their father raising them.
These he's missed the birth of multiple grandchildren. He's miss
milestones us completing college and getting our first big girl
jobs and purchasing our first homes. Like these are really
important things that he has missed out on. And so
you have space and you have time between all of
us that we literally cannot get back. Like there's nothing
(38:26):
that we could do about it. And so at the
least that you could do is take uh, be accountable
for what was done. And I think that that's all
we're asking for at this point. We're not trying to
point the finger at anybody. We just we want true
justice to be served and we just want him to
come home and for there to be some type of
(38:48):
accountability held. And it's frustrating, it's disheartening, but it's like, well,
we just gotta keep fighting because we gotta fight for daddy.
We gotta fight to get Daddy home. I think we've
bypassed a point of pointing the finger, and and you know,
we're still hurting, we're still angry, we're still confused. I
have said, we have a lot of emotions, but we
just want him to come home.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Why is to Forest Johnson still on Alabama's death row?
Why is he still locked in a cell when so
many people, including the prosecutor who argued to put him there,
are calling for a new trial. In early October twenty
twenty three, the United States Supreme Court announced it would
(39:34):
not review to Forrest Johnson's case, but to Forest's legal
team continues to fight for him. They have appeals pending
in both state and federal courts. This is where we
find ourselves unable to tell you how this story ends.
I plan to stay here with de Forest, his family,
(39:58):
his children, his lawyers, and everyone else who believes in
him will continue to hold him in the light of truth.
Speaker 12 (40:10):
This is a free call from before.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
An incarcerated individual at Alabama Department of Corrections.
Speaker 12 (40:19):
That call is not private.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
It will be recorded and maybe minderg you may start
the conversation.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
Now, Hey Daddy, Hey President, Hi, what you doing?
Speaker 13 (40:32):
I'm good?
Speaker 6 (40:32):
How was your day?
Speaker 2 (40:34):
It was good?
Speaker 4 (40:35):
Long today. Still trying to get used to.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
To Forrest calls his family from prison whenever he can,
but his oldest daughter, Shaney, also keeps his cards and
letters in a k Swiss shoe box under her bed.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
If I had to describe this card, there is a
bee hive on the front with a few bees buzzing around,
and it's dated January fifth, two thousand and three.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
Like all the people who love to Forrest Johnson, his
five kids and fifteen grandkids, his mother Donna, his aunts,
uncles and cousins, they read the words he sent them
over the years when they need to hold him close.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
It reads, I love you and can't wait to see
you and hold you in my arms again. You underlined
are the reason Daddy has a spirit to get up
every day and has hope that there would be a
better day up ahead for me. And he says, Shaney,
(41:56):
Daddy wants you to be a good young lady and
do what your mother asks of you. I love you
and I hope to see you again real soon.
Speaker 9 (42:08):
Be good?
Speaker 3 (42:08):
All right.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
To learn more about the fight to free to Forest Johnson,
sign up for updates and learn how you can help,
visit the website created by Greater Birmingham Ministries for to Forest.
It's to Forest Johnson dot com. And a special thanks
to the family of to Forest Johnson who have generously
(42:46):
shared so much for this series. Ear Witness is a
(43:08):
production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company.
Number One. Executive producers are Jason Flom, Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wardis,
and me Beth Shelburn. The investigative reporting for this series
was done by Me and Mara McNamara. Producers are MARAA. McNamara,
(43:29):
Hannah Bial and Jackie Polly. Kara Kornhaber is our senior producer.
Britt Spangler is our sound designer. Additional story editing from
Marie Sutton, fact checkhelp from Catherine Newhan, and special thanks
to to Forrest Johnson's legal defense team. You can follow
(43:50):
the show on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and Twitter at Lava
for Good. To see behind the scenes content from our investigation,
visit Lava for Good dot com slash ear Witness
Host
Beth Shelburne
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