Kathy Fernandez Rundle has served as Miami-Dade County’s State Attorney since 1993. Enrique speaks with her in a wide-ranging conversation that covers everything from how to best prosecute cold cases, the importance of physical evidence, and why she continues to do the work she does.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
From School of Humans and iHeart Podcasts. This is Cold
Case Files Miami. I'm your host Andrique Santos. Hello, Welcome
to Cold Case Files Miami. Behind the Prosecution. So part
of our goal on this show is to have open
(00:28):
conversations with professionals about what law enforcement or first responders
deal with behind the scenes. Today, I'm speaking with State
Attorney Kathy for Netta Rundel. It's an am you may
have heard mentioned a few times on this show. Kathy
has been Miami Dade County State Attorney for more than
thirty years, since nineteen ninety three. She is the first
ever Cuban American state attorney in the state of Florida.
(00:51):
As the county's top law enforcement officer, Kathy's work balances
crime prosecution with crime prevention, as she said during her
accessful twenty twenty four re election campaign. Under her tenure,
she has conceived of, designed, supported, and implemented a number
of smart justice programs that allow us to improve public
safety and support our community in a thoughtful, strategic, and
(01:15):
effective manner. This includes various gun violence initiatives, second chance programs,
and diversionary programs for nonviolent first time offenders. Today, though,
I want to talk to Kathy specifically about cold cases, because,
as we know, an arrest is only the first step
in bringing justice to a family and the community. I
think her insight on how her office works to prosecute
(01:38):
cold cases will be particularly insightful. Kathy, thank you so
much for joining us today.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Oh Henrick Kunk. You know, it's just such a pleasure
and an honor for me to be with you and
talk to you about especially these kinds of issues. But
you're one of my favorite journalists because you're just you're
so interested in important topics that impact our community unity.
You always have a way of being able to liquefy
(02:04):
the issue into something that's understandable and relevant and important.
And you're just one of the best people I know,
and apart from being one of the best professionals. So
thank you for having me today.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Now to start things off, can you define what the
state attorney's office does exactly?
Speaker 2 (02:22):
So let's look at it this way. So let's just
take Day County. So state attorneys and district attorneys around
the country are generally one and the same. There's some exceptions.
They call them attorney generals in some places, but district
attorneys and state attorneys, and what their role is is
they're the entity made up mostly of lawyers whose job
(02:44):
it is is to look at what evidence exists and
determine what are the appropriate charges, if any. So let's
take Miami Daye County. There are thirty five police departments.
They're a variety by the federal, state and local agents.
So all of those cases at the local level misdemeanors, felonies,
(03:07):
so that's you know, murders, burglary, stealing cars, breaking into
your homes, all that stuff, and they make an arrest.
It comes to this office. We are the onlyest prosecutor,
local prosecutor for all of those local crimes. And the
other thing is that we do so sometimes liking cold cases,
(03:29):
police think they have enough or they want to have
enough to make an arrest. So someone breaks into your home,
somebody calls nine one one, police arrive on the scene,
and they catch the burg That's not difficult, right, They
have the authority to make a decision. The victim says, yes,
that's him. This is what he said. He has no
(03:49):
right to be in my home. He used a gun,
he came into my house. I want Tom arrest it.
That's sufficient because the officers see the person, they have
a I witness the persons on the location, they make
the arrest. Okay, then we have to determine prosecution. Is
an armburglery is there an armed assault attached to it?
(04:13):
So there's all those things that we would look at.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Kathy, I'm curious what first got you interested in this work.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
The short version is, I always love being a lawyer.
I used to watch all those TV shows with my dad.
My dad was a lawyer, and I watched everything. I
shouldn't even tell you, like Perry Mason and I should
say Law and Order, and I do do those. I
still do those. But I'm always was in chiegud By.
That so fast forward when I ended up going to
(04:42):
England to the University of Cambridge to do postgraduate work
in criminology and in the law. And my orientation at
that time was very international, and so you know, I'm
studying with people and professors from all over the world,
some of the best. But the was I was listening
and learning about human rights violations that occur in so
(05:06):
many sad places in this globe, and particularly what was
going on with women and children in Africa and the
way they were mistreated in some of the Mid Eastern countries,
and so I wanted to go to the Hague and
I wanted to fight against those human rights violations. I
(05:26):
just felt that's where I wanted to be as a
young woman. And I came home for the summer and
I told my father and this is what my plan
is this this year? Crazy? Well, you kind you cannot
go so far. That's crazy, And he goes, that's what
I mean, what are you going to do this summer?
You know, daddy, I've been studying since I was three
(05:47):
years old. Can I just relax? He said, well, I
want you to go to the State Attorney's office and
do a little internship program there. I said, all right,
that makes you happy. You've been good to me. I
trust your judgment. I believed in everything he said and did.
So I went. I went, and I found out it
was kind of about putting people in jail. So I said, ah,
(06:08):
this is really what I was thinking of, you know,
being in the business of just putting people in jail.
And I realized within a couple of months I was
so wrong. That was just completely under It was a
myth that that was all that a prosecutor did. I
learned that there was there were so many human rights
violations happening right here in my backyard, you know, violence
(06:32):
against children, sexual assault cases, domestic violence cases. I would
see women that would come in with burns from cigars
and beaten and broken jaws, and so I just said,
you know what, I want to do this here. I
want to help my own community. And so that's the
long version of how I ended up here. And the
(06:54):
other thing was I learned and reque some of what
you said at the beginning that if you under stand
crime in a community, you understand the importance of prevention,
prevent punishments. Important, Getting you know, getting the people that
are dangerous to the rest of the community off the
streets so everybody else can be safe, absolutely important. But
(07:18):
that's really only the career of criminal violent criminals. The
other part of the population Sometimes are just people that
make mistakes right, They have an addiction issue, that have
mental health issues, they were bullied so they retaliated, you know,
all kinds of things that if you can fix those
underlying issues, get them to be constructive, contributing members of
(07:43):
the community, you prevent victimization. You prevent recent division, and
you can make a very happy person a safe community
by dealing with them. And so that's that's been my
I guess myself, it's just been such a great uplifting
(08:04):
experience for me. It's kept me inspired for so many years.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
With that said, what would you say is the biggest
legal and ethical responsibility of a prosecutor?
Speaker 2 (08:17):
It comes to play in so many different respects. I
think that one of the most important messages I try
to convey to the thousands of young lawyers that have
passed through this office over the years is you have
to believe in your case. If for any reason you
(08:39):
don't believe that it's either the right person or the
right charge, you need to step up and say so.
You could be wrong, but you could be right. So
I always tell them go to a supervisor, talk it through.
Don't be afraid talk to the police officers. Why did
you arrest this per right? There may have been a
(09:02):
mistake because the power of a prosecutor, it's not just
to convict the guilty, is to protect the innocent. And
so if someone is wrongfully accused, if you don't believe
that someone's guilty of the crime or the crime that's charged.
Maybe it's a reduced one, maybe it's a higher crime.
We want you to follow what you believe is ethically
(09:27):
and consciously the right thing to do.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
From a prosecutor's perspective, Why do you feel cases go cold?
And what are the biggest unique challenges in prosecuting cold cases?
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Okay, so there's a I know everybody knows the phrase
justice delayed is justice denying, and we tend to think
of that being on behalf of a defendant or someone
that has been bereaeved or an injustice has been done
and you're trying to get to this complicated court system,
and the longer it takes, you just feel like you're
(10:04):
not getting justice. And that is true. There's another side
of it, though, which deals with delays and stale information.
When a crime is committed, one of the goals is
to get that information as fresh as you can. Who
was on the scene, get that information, record that information,
Get not only the physical evidence, but get the testimonial
(10:27):
evidence as quick as you can. So because what happens
is people's witness testimony changes, it gets stale. Maybe there
was nobody that saw it. If they think they heard something,
their mind starts to tell them otherwise, or they see
a newscast. This actually happened in a cold case we had.
(10:49):
It was it was a burglary in an apartment building,
and the physical evidence had been moved everybody going down
the staircase. So these casings, which was what's left after
you shoot a firearm with the bullet, that's what holds
it in and that's what remains on the scene, and
you use that a lot, and where they are is
(11:11):
very critical to trying to piece together where was the
shooter standing when they discharged their firearm, things like that. Well,
what had happened was in this case, so many people
left the building, they went down the staircase, and all
the casings were all over the place. So the only
witness testimony was from people in the apartment building. But
(11:32):
they were watching TV and the newscasts were saying, you know,
there was a shooting. It's such and such an apartment
there were this, and these people ran out and this
is what it looks like happened. So it wasn't that
they were intending on creating falsities. They didn't think they
(11:52):
were lying. I mean, that was the last thing they
thought they were helping, but with their vision and their
interpretation of what they saw had been influenced by what
they were seeing on TV.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Is that is that considered a witness if someone sees
something on TV?
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Well, so if they heard something and you're trying to
use them, So was it a male voice? Was a
female voice? How far soon after the shooting did it happen?
What were the words they said? If you're just listening,
Let's say you're a neighbor, right, and you hear that,
you don't actually see much, you're not necessary an eyewitness,
(12:31):
but you're a witness. But then if someone is piecing
the case together who doesn't really they're just listening to
people in the apartment building, then they're starting to they're
starting to create their own impression of what happened. And
so it's not bad. Sometimes that's all we got, right,
(12:51):
That's what we have to live with. But the point
of that is the longer it takes to prove your case,
the more likely it is that's what that you may
not prove that case. It's the same thing when they
have children go missing, they say, if you don't get
them within forty eight seventy two hours, same kind of
(13:13):
concept everything goes cold, and that's exactly what.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
It means talking about that. Knowing the timing is so
important in these investigations. Can you walk us through how
your office works with law enforcement and other agencies when
revisiting cold cases.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
So two things. For police departments, it's really important that
they have some support system from their leadership or some
extra funding maybe from a federal grant that will allow
them to stay on a case, revisit a case, as
opposed to moving on right. So that's one of the
(13:49):
challenges that police have, and I really feel for them,
right because they may have a case, a murder case,
a rape case. They want to make it happen. The
victim or the victims surviving family members waiting for answers.
If I'll be things go cold, there's no hot leads,
they don't know where else to go, and then the
next crime comes in and they got to put that
(14:10):
on a shelf and they have to go deal, you know,
respond to the next one and the next one and
the next one. So any police department that has actually
created a cold case squad they're called and we've had
a number of those cases and it's so let's say
the police come to us and say, look, we looked
(14:30):
at this case five years ago. I think we we
this is what we have. What do you think we need,
mister Madham prosecutor. So they'll sit down and they'll try
to look to together. And maybe what you do is
you resubmit the fingerprints. That technology on fingerprints has improved.
Maybe you resubmit the DNA that when I was mentioning
(14:54):
a few minutes ago, so it used to be it
was just linear familia, you know, father, mother, brother, sister,
but it didn't work out to cousins and uncles. That
technology is now available, so sometimes we'll do that. We
so let's go do that. I'll give you a really
interesting case. You may remember. It dealt with an Englishman
(15:17):
who was doing business in Miami. He disappeared. Everybody sort
of believed he had been murdered, but they could never
find the body. Now, the body is one of the
key pieces of evidence, right a were they killed or
are they dead? Or did they just run away from
(15:38):
their wife with a mistress or something? Right now, of
course not, you know, and so you need the body
is a piece that you don't need it, but it's
very critical. It gives you all kinds of evidence. Make
a long story short. There were little tidbits of information
about this businessman who disappeared, maybe had been killed. His
(16:01):
last name was Bates, b Ates. And then there was
a hurricane and the the what happens is, you know,
is our water table, because it's only limestone, it fills
up with all the water and all this body emerged
(16:22):
out sort of like in you know, the boondocks, kind
of towards the Everglades. And what had happened is they
were able to show that that was mister Bates. And
so through the forensics even then, which were not as
great as they are today, they were able to prove
the identity. We were able to piece that so that
a cold case squad at the Metro Day Police Department
(16:46):
was able to hound that case, you know, just need
it and nurture it until they were able to follow everything.
What were they wearing at the time, who was there
in town at the time, who was the beneficiary I'm
not talking about life insurance, Who was the beneficiary of
the business right that he left behind, And of course
(17:06):
it was pieced all together between the prosecutor and the
code case squad. We were able to get a case
together without a body because it was only mains fluid,
body tissues, things like that, and we got a conviction. Wow,
And it was his business partners. And if my memory
serves me correctly.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
When we're back, we'll continue our discussion with Kathy Fernandez Rundele.
Welcome back. I'm here with Kathy Fernandez Rundle, State Attorney
of Miami Dade County. Kathy, something that comes up a
lot when you watch crime shows is the reason behind
the crime, right, why an offender did what he did?
How important is motive to prosecutors for a trial. Does
(17:51):
understanding why someone may have committed a crime is that important?
Is evidence more important? Do you need to know both?
Speaker 2 (17:58):
And that is a super question because there's really two
answers to that. So one is legally you don't need it,
and there's actually a jury instruction, And what that means
is that juries are told right if you don't there's
no motive. The state didn't prove motive. No motive is
necessary for you to make a decision on the case.
(18:20):
So there's an affirmative instruction that's legally. We're all human beings, right,
so we all want to know why what was the benefit?
Was it vindictive? Was it motivated by money? I mean
we had we had a murder case once to this guy,
I mean he he made it look like a robbery.
(18:44):
He even set the clock he killed his wife. He
even set the clock on a different time schedule. And
he had a pillowcase that was all put together like
a pretty package for the police to make it look
like it was a burger and had stuff in it.
And it was just it was a fluke that there
was a what do you call it? Tire harm and
(19:06):
you put your tire together with those the nuts and
bolts when it's a called the tire tire iron, tire iron,
thank you. We found that in a trunk one day
and that turned out to be the murder weapon. And
then we were able to show why it was the husband.
And it was a lot because of motive. We didn't
(19:27):
need that, we really needed the tire iron. But for
us it just made sense because we kept looking for
an answer. So we like to have an answer to
begin with. And let me just not thought. If you
were a dure, you want to know too, So you're
you know, you're finding there's the law and then there's
human nature and reaction.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Let's say you don't have the tire iron right, what
other types of evidence might you look for to bolster,
you know, your case.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
So a lot of cases are made just on a
credible witness. And sometimes it's a witness, it's happenstance on
the scene, in a store, in the car, in the
parking lot, they see the guy run out, they hear
the shooting, they look so those we can make cases
based on credible witnesses, and we do.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Is one kind of evidence better than another?
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Physical evidence always better, rocks, it really rules, I mean,
because the science of it is so time tested. That's
not to say that there aren't some defenses where people
can challenge it. I mean, obviously, you know, there's nothing perfect,
(20:40):
so there are always going to be challenges, and there
should be challenges. But for the most part, scientific evidence,
physical evidence. Ring cameras are not not cult full proof,
but they can be really really persuasive and convincing. All
of the DNA samples, hair samples, blood samples, te stamps, tissue,
(21:01):
you know, we can tell sometimes just by tissue under
someone's fingernails whether they were in a defense. Was it
a defensive you know, sometimes you can get defensive wounds,
but just by the tissue under someone's fingernails. I mean,
there's just so much that can be proved now with
physical evidence, but technology, with science, it's just amazing.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Sometimes cases are cold because of a lack of eyewitnesses
coming forward. One reason they might not come forward is
because they're afraid of retaliation to them, to their family members.
Sometimes there's witness tampering, and sometimes you know, there's active
threats for witnesses, like people who might have seen something
(21:45):
but are afraid to come forward. What would you say
to them?
Speaker 2 (21:49):
First of all, I understand that terror There are people
in neighborhoods that act as terrors, and there are a
lot of good, hard working people that live in neighborhhoods
where gun violence is more commonplace than a rarity. Those
of us that may not live in violent neighborhoods don't
(22:09):
realize how blessed we are. And so I understand, and
the police understand that there are cases where there are
witnesses and they're just afraid, and they're afraid for good reason.
There are all kinds of witness protection techniques that we
(22:29):
can do to help you. We can relocate you. We
can do watch orders on your house, we can move
you to another place, at least temporarily. A lot of
people don't want to move. But you know, the message
is that we got to stand up because if we
don't stand up, and this time it could be somebody else,
(22:50):
But next time it could be you. It could be you,
and it could be me, It could be any one
of us. So if we don't stand up for each
other and stand up for the those that suffer in silence,
for our neighbors, for a neighbor's kids, then you know what,
we could be the last man standing. And then who's
going to be there for us? Well?
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Thank you for standing up for those that can't. And
this makes me think and I'm curious, and I want
to know, Kathy, what drives your passion for pursuing justice,
particularly in cases that have remained unsolved.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
I just can't. I can't. It's so hard to express
in words, but my heart aches sometimes when I have
to look in the eyes of a mother, a father,
a brother, a sister who lost somebody and there's no answers.
I have no answers, and that motivates and it's not
(23:46):
just me in rique. I mean it's I mean, this
office is just full of passionate, devoted, hardworking people that
when you meet these families, right, and they just inspire
you to want to solve the crime, to get them justice.
The other thing is sometimes they go through so much pain.
(24:09):
You can see they've been made a quadriplegic, and they
come in a wheelchair. They can barely breathe anymore because
their spinal court has been so damaged. But they push
themselves and they get to court and maybe it's the
fifth year and they've been coming to court and coming
to court, and finally they're there. You know what that
(24:31):
that's inspiration, right and so and then when you see
somebody finally gets sentenced, maybe taken off the streets so
they're not going to do this to anybody else. And
the judge says, you're going to prison for life, so
you never hurt another child or another shoot at another
(24:51):
person again. And those family members cry and hug you,
We cry with they're just tears of relief and a
sense of success that we did something better and there's
nothing better in life.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
So that's closure for the family, but it's also closure
for you in your office.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Absolutely Sometimes these lawyers go out on seats at three
o'clock in the morning. They don't get paid over time.
They do it because they want to do it. They
want to be there for the fresh evidence. They want
to talk to those family members. They want to establish
a bond. They'll work night and day. They'll work weekends,
so give up holidays. They'll walk away from their children's
(25:35):
birthdays if they have to. They will do whatever it
takes on behalf of these victims to go to court
and fight for them, fight for the voiceless and for
the powerless.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
With that said, and going back to the Bates case
that you mentioned earlier, that went so many years cold
and was reopened only when the body did finally appear,
would you say that the truth always surfaces?
Speaker 2 (25:58):
You know, I will say this. We always seek the truth.
And you know what is that the truth will set
you free. And I do believe that, and I do
believe that the overwhelming majority of time, the truth is revealed,
and if people think they can run and hide from it,
(26:21):
at some point, it's going to catch up with you,
whether it's later or sooner. I really believe the truth
prevails and goodness prevails over evil. Even though there's evil
out there and we see it. We see it in
human trafficking cases, we see it in child abduction and
(26:42):
sexual saw cases. But in the end, I really believe
truth wins all.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Kathy, thank you so very much for speaking with me today.
This is a topic that clearly means so much to
both of us, and you've dedicated your life to this
kind of work thirty years in Miami Dade County. Thank
you for what you do for our community and for victims,
and for making our lives better. Hear your perspective on
this has been truly enlightening. Thank you so much for
(27:13):
what you do. Is there anything else you'd like to add?
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Yes, I have to thank you and Rique. I know,
I know that's not what you were fishing for, but
your listeners know, and those of us in this community
know what a great leader you are. And so our
voice is only as good as the power that you
give to it. And you have lived a life of
service in this community. You have given knowledge and power
(27:37):
to truth, and you have been a fighter for public
safety in this community. I know that I've seen it firsthand.
You continue to do it. You continue to inspire countless
people that you don't even know, but listen to you
that you're modeling for and you do that for me too,
So thank you, Enrique. You take care of yourself then
(27:59):
stay strong as you always have been.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Thank you so much. And you, you know, thinking out
loud here hearing your voice and describing all that, and again,
thank you so much because I know it comes from
the heart that I graduated the police academy basically when
you started as state attorney. It's remarkable.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Well I loved you up until that point. We don't
have that.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
And on the X on the next episode, how old
is our state attorney? No, it's I love you. Thank you.
I love you too, thank you, Thank you so much
for your time.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Cold Case Files Miami is a production of Iheart's Michael
Duda Podcast Network and School of Humans. I'm your host
Drigues Santos. This show was written and researched by Marissa Brown.
Our lead producer is Josh Thain and Elist Beerees is
our senior producer. Sound design and mixed by Josh Thain.
Fact checking by Savannah Hugley. Our production manager is Daisy Church.
(28:56):
Special thanks to Julia Ramirez from my production team. Our
iheartrate You executive producers including me Enrique Santos, carl Catel
and Arlene Santana, and Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr, and Elsie
Crowley from School of Humans. For more podcasts, listen to
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
(29:17):
your favorite shows
From School of Humans and iHeart Podcasts. This is Cold
Case Files Miami. I'm your host Andrique Santos. Hello, Welcome
to Cold Case Files Miami. Behind the Prosecution. So part
of our goal on this show is to have open
(00:28):
conversations with professionals about what law enforcement or first responders
deal with behind the scenes. Today, I'm speaking with State
Attorney Kathy for Netta Rundel. It's an am you may
have heard mentioned a few times on this show. Kathy
has been Miami Dade County State Attorney for more than
thirty years, since nineteen ninety three. She is the first
ever Cuban American state attorney in the state of Florida.
(00:51):
As the county's top law enforcement officer, Kathy's work balances
crime prosecution with crime prevention, as she said during her
accessful twenty twenty four re election campaign. Under her tenure,
she has conceived of, designed, supported, and implemented a number
of smart justice programs that allow us to improve public
safety and support our community in a thoughtful, strategic, and
(01:15):
effective manner. This includes various gun violence initiatives, second chance programs,
and diversionary programs for nonviolent first time offenders. Today, though,
I want to talk to Kathy specifically about cold cases, because,
as we know, an arrest is only the first step
in bringing justice to a family and the community. I
think her insight on how her office works to prosecute
(01:38):
cold cases will be particularly insightful. Kathy, thank you so
much for joining us today.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Oh Henrick Kunk. You know, it's just such a pleasure
and an honor for me to be with you and
talk to you about especially these kinds of issues. But
you're one of my favorite journalists because you're just you're
so interested in important topics that impact our community unity.
You always have a way of being able to liquefy
(02:04):
the issue into something that's understandable and relevant and important.
And you're just one of the best people I know,
and apart from being one of the best professionals. So
thank you for having me today.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Now to start things off, can you define what the
state attorney's office does exactly?
Speaker 2 (02:22):
So let's look at it this way. So let's just
take Day County. So state attorneys and district attorneys around
the country are generally one and the same. There's some exceptions.
They call them attorney generals in some places, but district
attorneys and state attorneys, and what their role is is
they're the entity made up mostly of lawyers whose job
(02:44):
it is is to look at what evidence exists and
determine what are the appropriate charges, if any. So let's
take Miami Daye County. There are thirty five police departments.
They're a variety by the federal, state and local agents.
So all of those cases at the local level misdemeanors, felonies,
(03:07):
so that's you know, murders, burglary, stealing cars, breaking into
your homes, all that stuff, and they make an arrest.
It comes to this office. We are the onlyest prosecutor,
local prosecutor for all of those local crimes. And the
other thing is that we do so sometimes liking cold cases,
(03:29):
police think they have enough or they want to have
enough to make an arrest. So someone breaks into your home,
somebody calls nine one one, police arrive on the scene,
and they catch the burg That's not difficult, right, They
have the authority to make a decision. The victim says, yes,
that's him. This is what he said. He has no
(03:49):
right to be in my home. He used a gun,
he came into my house. I want Tom arrest it.
That's sufficient because the officers see the person, they have
a I witness the persons on the location, they make
the arrest. Okay, then we have to determine prosecution. Is
an armburglery is there an armed assault attached to it?
(04:13):
So there's all those things that we would look at.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Kathy, I'm curious what first got you interested in this work.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
The short version is, I always love being a lawyer.
I used to watch all those TV shows with my dad.
My dad was a lawyer, and I watched everything. I
shouldn't even tell you, like Perry Mason and I should
say Law and Order, and I do do those. I
still do those. But I'm always was in chiegud By.
That so fast forward when I ended up going to
(04:42):
England to the University of Cambridge to do postgraduate work
in criminology and in the law. And my orientation at
that time was very international, and so you know, I'm
studying with people and professors from all over the world,
some of the best. But the was I was listening
and learning about human rights violations that occur in so
(05:06):
many sad places in this globe, and particularly what was
going on with women and children in Africa and the
way they were mistreated in some of the Mid Eastern countries,
and so I wanted to go to the Hague and
I wanted to fight against those human rights violations. I
(05:26):
just felt that's where I wanted to be as a
young woman. And I came home for the summer and
I told my father and this is what my plan
is this this year? Crazy? Well, you kind you cannot
go so far. That's crazy, And he goes, that's what
I mean, what are you going to do this summer?
You know, daddy, I've been studying since I was three
(05:47):
years old. Can I just relax? He said, well, I
want you to go to the State Attorney's office and
do a little internship program there. I said, all right,
that makes you happy. You've been good to me. I
trust your judgment. I believed in everything he said and did.
So I went. I went, and I found out it
was kind of about putting people in jail. So I said, ah,
(06:08):
this is really what I was thinking of, you know,
being in the business of just putting people in jail.
And I realized within a couple of months I was
so wrong. That was just completely under It was a
myth that that was all that a prosecutor did. I
learned that there was there were so many human rights
violations happening right here in my backyard, you know, violence
(06:32):
against children, sexual assault cases, domestic violence cases. I would
see women that would come in with burns from cigars
and beaten and broken jaws, and so I just said,
you know what, I want to do this here. I
want to help my own community. And so that's the
long version of how I ended up here. And the
(06:54):
other thing was I learned and reque some of what
you said at the beginning that if you under stand
crime in a community, you understand the importance of prevention,
prevent punishments. Important, Getting you know, getting the people that
are dangerous to the rest of the community off the
streets so everybody else can be safe, absolutely important. But
(07:18):
that's really only the career of criminal violent criminals. The
other part of the population Sometimes are just people that
make mistakes right, They have an addiction issue, that have
mental health issues, they were bullied so they retaliated, you know,
all kinds of things that if you can fix those
underlying issues, get them to be constructive, contributing members of
(07:43):
the community, you prevent victimization. You prevent recent division, and
you can make a very happy person a safe community
by dealing with them. And so that's that's been my
I guess myself, it's just been such a great uplifting
(08:04):
experience for me. It's kept me inspired for so many years.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
With that said, what would you say is the biggest
legal and ethical responsibility of a prosecutor?
Speaker 2 (08:17):
It comes to play in so many different respects. I
think that one of the most important messages I try
to convey to the thousands of young lawyers that have
passed through this office over the years is you have
to believe in your case. If for any reason you
(08:39):
don't believe that it's either the right person or the
right charge, you need to step up and say so.
You could be wrong, but you could be right. So
I always tell them go to a supervisor, talk it through.
Don't be afraid talk to the police officers. Why did
you arrest this per right? There may have been a
(09:02):
mistake because the power of a prosecutor, it's not just
to convict the guilty, is to protect the innocent. And
so if someone is wrongfully accused, if you don't believe
that someone's guilty of the crime or the crime that's charged.
Maybe it's a reduced one, maybe it's a higher crime.
We want you to follow what you believe is ethically
(09:27):
and consciously the right thing to do.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
From a prosecutor's perspective, Why do you feel cases go cold?
And what are the biggest unique challenges in prosecuting cold cases?
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Okay, so there's a I know everybody knows the phrase
justice delayed is justice denying, and we tend to think
of that being on behalf of a defendant or someone
that has been bereaeved or an injustice has been done
and you're trying to get to this complicated court system,
and the longer it takes, you just feel like you're
(10:04):
not getting justice. And that is true. There's another side
of it, though, which deals with delays and stale information.
When a crime is committed, one of the goals is
to get that information as fresh as you can. Who
was on the scene, get that information, record that information,
Get not only the physical evidence, but get the testimonial
(10:27):
evidence as quick as you can. So because what happens
is people's witness testimony changes, it gets stale. Maybe there
was nobody that saw it. If they think they heard something,
their mind starts to tell them otherwise, or they see
a newscast. This actually happened in a cold case we had.
(10:49):
It was it was a burglary in an apartment building,
and the physical evidence had been moved everybody going down
the staircase. So these casings, which was what's left after
you shoot a firearm with the bullet, that's what holds
it in and that's what remains on the scene, and
you use that a lot, and where they are is
(11:11):
very critical to trying to piece together where was the
shooter standing when they discharged their firearm, things like that. Well,
what had happened was in this case, so many people
left the building, they went down the staircase, and all
the casings were all over the place. So the only
witness testimony was from people in the apartment building. But
(11:32):
they were watching TV and the newscasts were saying, you know,
there was a shooting. It's such and such an apartment
there were this, and these people ran out and this
is what it looks like happened. So it wasn't that
they were intending on creating falsities. They didn't think they
(11:52):
were lying. I mean, that was the last thing they
thought they were helping, but with their vision and their
interpretation of what they saw had been influenced by what
they were seeing on TV.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Is that is that considered a witness if someone sees
something on TV?
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Well, so if they heard something and you're trying to
use them, So was it a male voice? Was a
female voice? How far soon after the shooting did it happen?
What were the words they said? If you're just listening,
Let's say you're a neighbor, right, and you hear that,
you don't actually see much, you're not necessary an eyewitness,
(12:31):
but you're a witness. But then if someone is piecing
the case together who doesn't really they're just listening to
people in the apartment building, then they're starting to they're
starting to create their own impression of what happened. And
so it's not bad. Sometimes that's all we got, right,
(12:51):
That's what we have to live with. But the point
of that is the longer it takes to prove your case,
the more likely it is that's what that you may
not prove that case. It's the same thing when they
have children go missing, they say, if you don't get
them within forty eight seventy two hours, same kind of
(13:13):
concept everything goes cold, and that's exactly what.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
It means talking about that. Knowing the timing is so
important in these investigations. Can you walk us through how
your office works with law enforcement and other agencies when
revisiting cold cases.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
So two things. For police departments, it's really important that
they have some support system from their leadership or some
extra funding maybe from a federal grant that will allow
them to stay on a case, revisit a case, as
opposed to moving on right. So that's one of the
(13:49):
challenges that police have, and I really feel for them,
right because they may have a case, a murder case,
a rape case. They want to make it happen. The
victim or the victims surviving family members waiting for answers.
If I'll be things go cold, there's no hot leads,
they don't know where else to go, and then the
next crime comes in and they got to put that
(14:10):
on a shelf and they have to go deal, you know,
respond to the next one and the next one and
the next one. So any police department that has actually
created a cold case squad they're called and we've had
a number of those cases and it's so let's say
the police come to us and say, look, we looked
(14:30):
at this case five years ago. I think we we
this is what we have. What do you think we need,
mister Madham prosecutor. So they'll sit down and they'll try
to look to together. And maybe what you do is
you resubmit the fingerprints. That technology on fingerprints has improved.
Maybe you resubmit the DNA that when I was mentioning
(14:54):
a few minutes ago, so it used to be it
was just linear familia, you know, father, mother, brother, sister,
but it didn't work out to cousins and uncles. That
technology is now available, so sometimes we'll do that. We
so let's go do that. I'll give you a really
interesting case. You may remember. It dealt with an Englishman
(15:17):
who was doing business in Miami. He disappeared. Everybody sort
of believed he had been murdered, but they could never
find the body. Now, the body is one of the
key pieces of evidence, right a were they killed or
are they dead? Or did they just run away from
(15:38):
their wife with a mistress or something? Right now, of
course not, you know, and so you need the body
is a piece that you don't need it, but it's
very critical. It gives you all kinds of evidence. Make
a long story short. There were little tidbits of information
about this businessman who disappeared, maybe had been killed. His
(16:01):
last name was Bates, b Ates. And then there was
a hurricane and the the what happens is, you know,
is our water table, because it's only limestone, it fills
up with all the water and all this body emerged
(16:22):
out sort of like in you know, the boondocks, kind
of towards the Everglades. And what had happened is they
were able to show that that was mister Bates. And
so through the forensics even then, which were not as
great as they are today, they were able to prove
the identity. We were able to piece that so that
a cold case squad at the Metro Day Police Department
(16:46):
was able to hound that case, you know, just need
it and nurture it until they were able to follow everything.
What were they wearing at the time, who was there
in town at the time, who was the beneficiary I'm
not talking about life insurance, Who was the beneficiary of
the business right that he left behind, And of course
(17:06):
it was pieced all together between the prosecutor and the
code case squad. We were able to get a case
together without a body because it was only mains fluid,
body tissues, things like that, and we got a conviction. Wow,
And it was his business partners. And if my memory
serves me correctly.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
When we're back, we'll continue our discussion with Kathy Fernandez Rundele.
Welcome back. I'm here with Kathy Fernandez Rundle, State Attorney
of Miami Dade County. Kathy, something that comes up a
lot when you watch crime shows is the reason behind
the crime, right, why an offender did what he did?
How important is motive to prosecutors for a trial. Does
(17:51):
understanding why someone may have committed a crime is that important?
Is evidence more important? Do you need to know both?
Speaker 2 (17:58):
And that is a super question because there's really two
answers to that. So one is legally you don't need it,
and there's actually a jury instruction, And what that means
is that juries are told right if you don't there's
no motive. The state didn't prove motive. No motive is
necessary for you to make a decision on the case.
(18:20):
So there's an affirmative instruction that's legally. We're all human beings, right,
so we all want to know why what was the benefit?
Was it vindictive? Was it motivated by money? I mean
we had we had a murder case once to this guy,
I mean he he made it look like a robbery.
(18:44):
He even set the clock he killed his wife. He
even set the clock on a different time schedule. And
he had a pillowcase that was all put together like
a pretty package for the police to make it look
like it was a burger and had stuff in it.
And it was just it was a fluke that there
was a what do you call it? Tire harm and
(19:06):
you put your tire together with those the nuts and
bolts when it's a called the tire tire iron, tire iron,
thank you. We found that in a trunk one day
and that turned out to be the murder weapon. And
then we were able to show why it was the husband.
And it was a lot because of motive. We didn't
(19:27):
need that, we really needed the tire iron. But for
us it just made sense because we kept looking for
an answer. So we like to have an answer to
begin with. And let me just not thought. If you
were a dure, you want to know too, So you're
you know, you're finding there's the law and then there's
human nature and reaction.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Let's say you don't have the tire iron right, what
other types of evidence might you look for to bolster,
you know, your case.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
So a lot of cases are made just on a
credible witness. And sometimes it's a witness, it's happenstance on
the scene, in a store, in the car, in the
parking lot, they see the guy run out, they hear
the shooting, they look so those we can make cases
based on credible witnesses, and we do.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Is one kind of evidence better than another?
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Physical evidence always better, rocks, it really rules, I mean,
because the science of it is so time tested. That's
not to say that there aren't some defenses where people
can challenge it. I mean, obviously, you know, there's nothing perfect,
(20:40):
so there are always going to be challenges, and there
should be challenges. But for the most part, scientific evidence,
physical evidence. Ring cameras are not not cult full proof,
but they can be really really persuasive and convincing. All
of the DNA samples, hair samples, blood samples, te stamps, tissue,
(21:01):
you know, we can tell sometimes just by tissue under
someone's fingernails whether they were in a defense. Was it
a defensive you know, sometimes you can get defensive wounds,
but just by the tissue under someone's fingernails. I mean,
there's just so much that can be proved now with
physical evidence, but technology, with science, it's just amazing.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Sometimes cases are cold because of a lack of eyewitnesses
coming forward. One reason they might not come forward is
because they're afraid of retaliation to them, to their family members.
Sometimes there's witness tampering, and sometimes you know, there's active
threats for witnesses, like people who might have seen something
(21:45):
but are afraid to come forward. What would you say
to them?
Speaker 2 (21:49):
First of all, I understand that terror There are people
in neighborhoods that act as terrors, and there are a
lot of good, hard working people that live in neighborhhoods
where gun violence is more commonplace than a rarity. Those
of us that may not live in violent neighborhoods don't
(22:09):
realize how blessed we are. And so I understand, and
the police understand that there are cases where there are
witnesses and they're just afraid, and they're afraid for good reason.
There are all kinds of witness protection techniques that we
(22:29):
can do to help you. We can relocate you. We
can do watch orders on your house, we can move
you to another place, at least temporarily. A lot of
people don't want to move. But you know, the message
is that we got to stand up because if we
don't stand up, and this time it could be somebody else,
(22:50):
But next time it could be you. It could be you,
and it could be me, It could be any one
of us. So if we don't stand up for each
other and stand up for the those that suffer in silence,
for our neighbors, for a neighbor's kids, then you know what,
we could be the last man standing. And then who's
going to be there for us? Well?
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Thank you for standing up for those that can't. And
this makes me think and I'm curious, and I want
to know, Kathy, what drives your passion for pursuing justice,
particularly in cases that have remained unsolved.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
I just can't. I can't. It's so hard to express
in words, but my heart aches sometimes when I have
to look in the eyes of a mother, a father,
a brother, a sister who lost somebody and there's no answers.
I have no answers, and that motivates and it's not
(23:46):
just me in rique. I mean it's I mean, this
office is just full of passionate, devoted, hardworking people that
when you meet these families, right, and they just inspire
you to want to solve the crime, to get them justice.
The other thing is sometimes they go through so much pain.
(24:09):
You can see they've been made a quadriplegic, and they
come in a wheelchair. They can barely breathe anymore because
their spinal court has been so damaged. But they push
themselves and they get to court and maybe it's the
fifth year and they've been coming to court and coming
to court, and finally they're there. You know what that
(24:31):
that's inspiration, right and so and then when you see
somebody finally gets sentenced, maybe taken off the streets so
they're not going to do this to anybody else. And
the judge says, you're going to prison for life, so
you never hurt another child or another shoot at another
(24:51):
person again. And those family members cry and hug you,
We cry with they're just tears of relief and a
sense of success that we did something better and there's
nothing better in life.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
So that's closure for the family, but it's also closure
for you in your office.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Absolutely Sometimes these lawyers go out on seats at three
o'clock in the morning. They don't get paid over time.
They do it because they want to do it. They
want to be there for the fresh evidence. They want
to talk to those family members. They want to establish
a bond. They'll work night and day. They'll work weekends,
so give up holidays. They'll walk away from their children's
(25:35):
birthdays if they have to. They will do whatever it
takes on behalf of these victims to go to court
and fight for them, fight for the voiceless and for
the powerless.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
With that said, and going back to the Bates case
that you mentioned earlier, that went so many years cold
and was reopened only when the body did finally appear,
would you say that the truth always surfaces?
Speaker 2 (25:58):
You know, I will say this. We always seek the truth.
And you know what is that the truth will set
you free. And I do believe that, and I do
believe that the overwhelming majority of time, the truth is revealed,
and if people think they can run and hide from it,
(26:21):
at some point, it's going to catch up with you,
whether it's later or sooner. I really believe the truth
prevails and goodness prevails over evil. Even though there's evil
out there and we see it. We see it in
human trafficking cases, we see it in child abduction and
(26:42):
sexual saw cases. But in the end, I really believe
truth wins all.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Kathy, thank you so very much for speaking with me today.
This is a topic that clearly means so much to
both of us, and you've dedicated your life to this
kind of work thirty years in Miami Dade County. Thank
you for what you do for our community and for victims,
and for making our lives better. Hear your perspective on
this has been truly enlightening. Thank you so much for
(27:13):
what you do. Is there anything else you'd like to add?
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Yes, I have to thank you and Rique. I know,
I know that's not what you were fishing for, but
your listeners know, and those of us in this community
know what a great leader you are. And so our
voice is only as good as the power that you
give to it. And you have lived a life of
service in this community. You have given knowledge and power
(27:37):
to truth, and you have been a fighter for public
safety in this community. I know that I've seen it firsthand.
You continue to do it. You continue to inspire countless
people that you don't even know, but listen to you
that you're modeling for and you do that for me too,
So thank you, Enrique. You take care of yourself then
(27:59):
stay strong as you always have been.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Thank you so much. And you, you know, thinking out
loud here hearing your voice and describing all that, and again,
thank you so much because I know it comes from
the heart that I graduated the police academy basically when
you started as state attorney. It's remarkable.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Well I loved you up until that point. We don't
have that.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
And on the X on the next episode, how old
is our state attorney? No, it's I love you. Thank you.
I love you too, thank you, Thank you so much
for your time.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Cold Case Files Miami is a production of Iheart's Michael
Duda Podcast Network and School of Humans. I'm your host
Drigues Santos. This show was written and researched by Marissa Brown.
Our lead producer is Josh Thain and Elist Beerees is
our senior producer. Sound design and mixed by Josh Thain.
Fact checking by Savannah Hugley. Our production manager is Daisy Church.
(28:56):
Special thanks to Julia Ramirez from my production team. Our
iheartrate You executive producers including me Enrique Santos, carl Catel
and Arlene Santana, and Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr, and Elsie
Crowley from School of Humans. For more podcasts, listen to
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
(29:17):
your favorite shows
Host
Enrique Santos
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