October 11, 2021 • 54 mins
Herk Harvey spent decades directing educational films, but he is best remembered for his lone feature, 1962's Carnival of Souls. Featuring interviews with Dr. Bernice Murphy, Associate Professor of English at Trinity College Dublin; Skip Elsheimer, founder of the A/V Geeks educational film archive; Candace Hilligoss, star of Carnival; and Herk Harvey himself.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
You know, you have to be careful about making a
weird show or watching a weird show. It may come
back to haunt you. Enjoy ephemeralist production of My Heart
three D audio for full exposure. Listen with that phones.
(00:30):
When I say filmmaker, who do you think of? Maybe
someone who directs features or TV shows or documentaries. Perhaps
they're employed by a studio or work independently. Of course,
(00:52):
there's all kinds of other filmmakers, students, amateurs, people who
make art films and short films and cut some video installations.
And then there's folks like her Harvey. The lens of
a motion picture projector is an eye that can help
you stimulate, motivate, educate your students. I think the most
(01:21):
partner thing when I was looking at Harvey was that
he was a maker of industrial films, films that were
largely made for distribution in high schools. In particular. I'm
Bernie Murphy. I'm an associate professor in the School of
English at Trinity College, Dublin. Films made for the classroom
have several purposes. It helps when you're choosing a film
(01:43):
to know that there is a connection between the purpose
of that film and the techniques used to achieve that purpose.
It's only when you dig into the whole concept of
educational film and an educational film company then you realize
that there's tu tours, there's real legitimate filmmakers who really
did good ones from Skip Alzheimer and I'm the founder
(02:07):
of the eighty Geeks Educational Film Archive in Raleigh, North Carolina.
In an over three decade career, her Carvey directed likely
hundreds of educational films, but best remembered it's his lone
feature two. Carnival of Souls in a nut Challenge falls
(02:29):
under that category of supernatural horror films. Carnival of Souls
is about a young woman called Mary who is in
uh drag race. At the very start of the film,
she's writing in a car with some friends and these
two guys pull up and the challenge on the show
(02:50):
a drag race? Do you want to drive? But during
the race, the women's car falls off the bridge and
it seems like everyone said, but then Mary clambers up
(03:10):
on the river bank and she's actually alive. Are you
all right? How do you get out? But this one
we better get you back to town. As the phone
goes on, Mary starts a new job in a new city.
She moves to Salt Lake City and becomes a church organist.
(03:31):
It seems things are going okay for a while, but
then gradually more and more spooky things start to happen.
She's kind of being haunted by this ghostly creature that
she sees, the Ghoule, as portrayed by director her Carvey,
a mute in white face paint. She turns, she sees somebody,
(03:53):
and then she turns around. It's not there anymore. She
rents this room whom at this boarding house and meets
another person who lives at the house. He's trying to
make time with her, and she's not interested. I thought
doing this at Elvis. Yeah yeah, when you ask me,
(04:15):
I'm John Linden, I mean Neil right across the hall.
Nice to meet, would you excuse me? Yeah, yeah, I'm
just wondering. Stand right there the creepy neighborhood. Oh, good morning,
I heard your love. I know you'd be up who
was clearly a sex predator next door. I really appreciate
you're taking me out to see me. I've had a
(04:36):
miserable night. If you had all forget it, come on here,
join a party drink up. At one point, she's driving
past this pavilion that used to be at this lake,
and she's told that they shouldn't go in there because
it would be illegal. This used to be quiet of place.
It's been deserted for a long time. Now will you
(04:57):
take me in? My goodness, no, it isn't safe out
there anymore. She's beginning to get kind of creeped out,
and is also being very unsocial. Don't you want to
join in the things that other people do, share the
experiences of other people. I don't think capable of being
very close to people. She's disconnected from her family, her community,
her job. We'll have to have some sort of reception.
(05:20):
Couldn't we just get that. I don't suppose it's an
absolute necessity. I don't know what some of the ladies
will say. If they say, I'm a fine organist. That
should be enough, shouldn't it. Well, yeah, of course, we'll
let it go at that for the time being. But
my dear, you cannot live in isolation from the human race.
(05:44):
You know. She goes and is playing for the minister,
but then it kind of becomes creepy. Yeah, circrileg what
are you playing in this church. Have you no respect?
(06:09):
Do you feel no reverence? She feels like she's kind
of losing her mind a little bit, but she's also
not engaging with people and just feels like out of
touch with everything. The department store, when she's going to
buy address, suddenly she's muted and no one can hear
or see her eye. But there's this very subtle kind
(06:32):
of rippling effect, so you get the sense that something
has changed, but you don't quite know why. She talks
to the doctor, who tries to help her but kind
of dismisses her concerns. Look, look, you've had a fright.
Hysteria won't solve anything. Not control yourself. By the end
of the film, Mary has been kind of pursued by
(06:52):
a spectral figure and actually spectral figures. She keeps obsessing
about the pavilion to go back there. He's trying to
take me back somewhere, and she actually ends up there.
Everybody there's ghouls, and there's this kind of dance that
(07:15):
takes place at the pavilion. The following day, they go
to the pavilion to look for Mary, and they find
footprints and stand that just end. The cars get over
there and no no foot them for leading up there
(07:35):
here and then nothing do you have a return At
the end of the film to the scene of the
crash back in Kansas, the police pull the car that
she was in from the river, and the spoiler alarge
her body is in the front seat with the two women.
(07:58):
It becomes clear that actually she has been dead all along.
The film itself has been about someone who believes they're
still alive but actually isn't. Well. It's about arguably about
many different things, but the story beats alone don't really
give a sense of what it's like to watch Carnival
(08:19):
of Souls. If you explain the plot, it doesn't do
justice to the atmosphere that the film has. It has
a real feel of kind of a Twilight Zone episode,
what's the matter with everyonehy don't they answer me? But
(08:41):
it is much more impressionistic, So it's like someone saw
a bunch of Italian or French cinema and then made
this future length chiller that has the supernatural element trying
to prevent me from living, trying to take me back somewhere.
It's one of those films that if you've seen it
(09:01):
and you sat through it, I think it stays with you.
It's so intensely focused on Mary and her experience. I
like being with you, really I do. I don't want
to be alone tonight. I want to be near you
that I think we end up, even if we don't
necessarily initially intend to, becoming caught up in her plight
(09:22):
and the sense that something is terribly wrong. Will you helping?
I need to help, but we don't quite know what.
There's that sense that things are somewhat askew in reality.
I don't belong in the world. What it is, something
separates me from other people. At first, it might perhaps
(09:44):
seem a little bit hokey, fill it out, independence on maaker,
little budget, not really a lot of professional actors. I
didn't known any harm. I just stopped to get a drink.
But the acting as a very raw kind of quality
to it at times. I don't know what Some of
(10:06):
the set pieces in the film we are absolutely superb.
The extended highway driving scene at night, which is brilliantly staged.
It is so unique in terms of its cinematography, and
there's a visual and kind of editorial sophistication there that
maybe you might necessarily be expecting from a film with
that budget level. There's also one off culter quality about
(10:30):
the film that maybe is in part because of its
low budget nature, as is often the way in low
budget horror filmmaking, when it's done well, actually adds to
the unease that it generates. When is the next post leave?
I must get on. It's not slick. It's not the
usual kind of narrative grammar that maybe a more conventional
film would have, but there's a sense that anything can happen.
(10:53):
Came you doctor, my last hope. It has more in
common in some ways with an art house film, and
the ways in which often they will up end are
sort of visual or narrative expectations. It's not your typical
I don't want to slag off the horror genre, but
I think it's unique and it remains unique. It has,
(11:17):
I think, a genuine eeriness that really holds up even today.
I think it has a real claim to be one
of the most important American horror films actually of the
nineteen sixties. I think it's been tremendously influential, but in
ways that aren't always fully appreciated. But there's no getting
away from the fact that it is a film about
(11:38):
the human cost of the interest driving. It's one of
those films that dramatizes the impact of road fatalities and
the idea that travel by car and the highways actually
have a very negative downside. Higas river is right now
and with all the mud and sand it's carrying and
may never find that car. I've first studied the film
(12:01):
about six or seven years ago. I was working on
a book called The Highway Horror Film, which is about
the cultural ramifications of the interested highway system, the effect
that the creation of this vast network of highways had
upon the horror film. In particular, by ninety one, something
like one million Americans had already died in car accidents.
(12:24):
Today's heavy traffic and high speed cars make the odds
heavy against the non drinking driver. You had an immense
road building operation that was underway. Our highways are engineered
for safety and convenience. It's sort of the dawn of
American teenagers. Hey, how would you and very like to
go out to the like tomorrow? What time? Early wealthier
(12:49):
ones in the nineteen thirties and forties would have had cars,
But you had kind of a more widespread introduction of
mass automobility generally, but particularly amongst the younger age group.
It became apparent with the statistics that they were disproportionately
affecting young people in particular. A seventeen year old boy
driving a red convertible comes over a hillcrest and rams
(13:11):
into a red hardtop that came out of a side rope.
Here is the young man critically injured, and this is
his car. So you had in the nineteen fifties a
raft of films that were essentially targeted towards a teenage audience,
and there were cautionary films Signal thirty the code that
has a morbid meeting of the men of the Ohio
(13:33):
State Highway of Control. A good driver stacy film, a
good drug film, a good alcohol film, a good VD
film is scaring you. The lad may have been fast
on the gridiron, but speed on the highway is at
best a losing and deadly gay. There's a setup of
the person who you were made to identify with. A
(13:56):
young man speeds home after enjoying a rollicking state party.
He goes through something tragic, and then this is why
it was tragic, because of drugs, because of drinking, because
they didn't drive safely. One, the damage to the car
was slight a repair bill of would have covered it easily. Second,
(14:17):
the man and his wife were planning a party for
the next day, a party observing his young son's birthday.
And then there's a reconciliation. If we educate ourselves to
our dangers and our responsibilities, we can expect accident free highways,
We can obey the law. We can use courtesy and consideration.
(14:41):
Let's all of us regard the automobile as a useful
servant and priceless necessity, not as a weapon to name
and kill. I think you can see why the genre
would have internalized, particularly since essentially several generations of American
teenagers were forced to watch this kind of material real.
Had the speeding truck driver observed the forty five mile
(15:03):
per hour speed limit, there would have been a plus
safety factor. I came to Carnival of Souls because it
quickly became clear to me that it was really a
foundational text in the highway horror film. I know, I'll
tear your story about it. It wasn't our faults. Yeah,
we were the first ones on the bridge and coming
(15:25):
along following the tracks and they wanted to get around us,
I guess, and if they lost control when they dropped
carry it in crowd of them all. Her carve was
obviously someone who in a previous filmmaking capacity, had made
films about the dangers of reckless driving and young people
misbehaving in cars nobody can afford to drive with alcohol
(15:46):
present in the body. It makes complete sense to me
that it would have filtered into popular culture in later years.
Carnival of Souls literally begins with young people in a
dry race that they shouldn't be in, and then a
terrible accident unfolds. And that's a really really typical feature
of the highway safety films of the nineteen sixties in particular.
(16:10):
I don't know that it's explicitly saying, you know, kids
drive carefully, which obviously the highway safety phones were very
explicitly saying that all of these resulted from violations of
simple traffic regulations. It's up to you and your own driving. Heavens,
But there is a kind of a verity style to
Carnival of Souls. That girl. It has an unusual sense
(16:33):
of maybe realism for a low budget horror film of
that era. David four yesterday she was the only one
of three girls to survive an accident. It makes you
feel a little of something like how granted? I think
you could argue that some of that sense of maybe
reality and one deity has come perhaps from the industrial films.
(16:55):
What can we do and what can you do to
prevent you've nod of lenquency? You tell us The demand
(17:19):
for classroom films inspired childhood friends Arthur Wolfe and Russell
Monster to found the Centron Corporation. What's interesting about them
is that they were based in Lawrence, Kansas. Centron Films
a firm in Lawrence, Kansas. Have you ever been there? No?
And Emily always visited the family here. That's where University
(17:41):
of Kansas is. They were pulling a lot of their
talent from University of Kansas. That's where her card became from.
I got started making films. Uh I was here at
the university in the theatrical department, in the theater department
up here as an instructor at that time, and uh
(18:02):
I would come down to Centro on once in a
while as an actor. And finally they asked me if
I would like to direct for them, and I said sure.
It would be kind of fun to try. So I
came down full time as a director at that time,
and that was twelve thirteen years before we did Carnival.
After two in the Navy during World War Two and
(18:23):
a decision not to pursue a career in chemical engineering,
Herk Harvey enrolled in the University of Kansas to study
theater while acting and directing school productions. Perk earned bachelor's
and master's degrees from KU, and with a doctorate from
the University of Colorado, came back to Kansas to teach
(18:46):
acting and filmmaking. In nineteen fifty two. While continuing to teach,
Harvey started working for the centro On Corporation, directing company
productions for over three decades. What started out as a
director and remained a director for thirty or five years
at centro On. The interesting thing about it was that
(19:11):
with each project, of course, the nature of the job change,
because we were making educational industrials that included a variety
of subjects, and also in some of the industrials we
got into musicals and extensive travel and this sort of thing.
So the job itself was very interesting and that it
was always different, but across the Board of Industrial and
(19:35):
Educational Films. Casting crew info can be difficult, sometimes impossible
to track down because credits were rarely ever included, So
you don't know who directed it, you don't know who
live it, you don't know who photographed it, you don't
know any of the actor's names. Accounts vary as to
how many and which films Herk made for Centron, but
(19:58):
it's well documented that he worked there from two until
Here are some of the classics that we believe to
bear his stamp. But couldn't you manage to arrange your
time so you could have a little fun too. I
have a certain amount of homework to do, and I
like to get done on time, but you have a
(20:19):
whole weekend cheating a snob? Those are ones that are
open ended, with a student talking in the beginning and
then telling the story about what's going to happen. Did
you hear about John Taylor? They voted him out a
student council representative because he was called cheating who John Taylor?
Voted down John Taylor? And then you have to decide
(20:46):
at the end, like what you're gonna do? Is the
group justified in judging everything Sarah does as snobbery. What
do you think? Why study Industrial Arts is part of
a series. There's why study Latin? Why study science? Why
(21:07):
study home economics? Here's an elective that you have in
high school that you could take, and this is why
you should take it. And Joe will need score as
a man who can translate and build those ideas on
paper into the actual homes, churches, schools, and factors of
the future. Some of you may be spakesmen who must
understand the impact and implications of science on society manners
(21:32):
in school. This boy is acting up in class and
is not allowed to take recess and see has to
clean the chalkboards. Larry, I just wanted to remind you
it's your boards, Thomas Rand. We're gonna play ball at
recess honors. You better get somebody else, some girl and Chalky. Fine, Larry,
(21:55):
my name is Chocky. I think he's a devil who's
actually chopped. I think I can trust you, Larry. After all,
I'm just trying to be your friend. Basically takes the
boy to task on his behavior. I'm here for a
purpose to do something about your manners. What do you mean,
(22:16):
my man, I'm worried about you. Larry, Hey, hey, what
are you doing? I'm gonna wipe you out, That's what
my heavens. You are a bad mannered young man, aren't you,
and teaches him a lesson. I'm ready to go, Larry,
oh jee, No, Chalky, I can't do that. I need
(22:38):
you to help me with my manners. No, Larry, you
don't need me anymore. You can learn good manners yourself
by watching the good manners of others, and he eventually
learns from it. Larry, you've done an excellent job on
the chalkboard. Thank you, Miss Ryan. What about prejudice is
(22:58):
pretty good because it is high school students. I don't
know about you, but I think the best party you've
ever said North And there is one student who you
never see. This is the story of Bruce Jones, who
walked in a shadow of hate and suspicions. Who is
being prejudiced against? You see the reconciliation. You see how
(23:21):
they process that, and it's pretty great. The thing is,
it wasn't Bruce at all. I was the one neatly
fitting people into categories because of where they go to church,
or what their fathers do, or what the color of
their skin is. The Innocent Party is one of several
venerial disease films that Centron did. The Quarkscrews. Things of
(23:45):
the terms of these films talk about young adults and
kids are having sex and they're getting venerial disease, and
I'm talking about it and it's a problem. I'm not
here to like a moral jud but you and I
know that it was kindtracted sexual intercourse with an infected person.
That that beat that only summer of love thing that
(24:07):
was much later. Choosing a classroom film is kind of
an ad Proper use of film heightens the importance of
the teacher and makes his contribution all the more necessary.
This is how you use an educational film. Such films
provide common experiences through which your students can more easily
gain a new appreciation of themselves and the factors which
(24:29):
shape their lives. The narrator here seen on camera is
her curvy himself. Let's take a look at some screen examples.
They would probably give that away to a school system
and say, but here, here's a film about choosing classroom films,
and here's a catalog, and you get to go through
and pick what fits and why you would pick a
(24:50):
film for a given class. You will develop your own
skill in evaluating films by learning to recognize some of
the film techniques we have demonstrated here. Now, each of
these serve an essential purpose, but remember too that any
one of them may serve a secondary purpose, which may
be very important in relation to your teaching goals. In
(25:12):
an educational film, you have eleven minutes to tell what
you need to tell, and so how do you relay
that information? How do you break down the shots? You
have to be very efficient, and you have to be
very deliberate. I feel like that deliberateness and that efficiency
helped Carnival of Souls. Thirty five millimeter was very expensive,
(25:34):
and the fact that they had shot so many educational
films was kind of a similar criteria of look and
got to knock it out in the thoughtful way, in
a smart way. I don't think shots were wasted in
that film. The idea of doing a thirty five millimeter
feature film for thirteen thousand dollars cache is a little
staggering even then, but we did get the money and
(25:57):
decided yes, we can do it, and start and shooting
the film in order to make Carnival. Harvey relied heavily
on his Centron rollo. Dex Carnival of Souls writer John
Clifford was also on staff with Centron. The nice thing
about working with her is that, over the years, to
(26:18):
come up with something difficult, he always says, well, you're right,
that's the way you think it ought to be, and
I'll get it shut. I'll try to, so you know,
writers appreciate it. He's asked me do the writing, and
I stay out of his dre There's a lot of
(26:38):
actors in there that show up in Centron films, and
a lot of locations that show up in Centron films
as well, So it's like, oh, I know that guy.
Obviously that guy grow up like he was in this
y study science film, and now he's a hot rotter.
Larry Sneakers, the cut who began the drag race which
started the film, Joe, drag your foot boy. Look what
we got here? Now you wanted right? Uh. Sneagus was
(27:02):
also the movie's production manager, so he borrowed pretty heavily
from there, and he also borrowed pretty heavily from University
of Kansas is Dramatic School. Come on, what do you
I'm an alcoholic look. I just like the s thought
that they often a good mood. That's all. You must
be hilarious by noons. Lifelong theater teacher Sidney Burger, who
(27:23):
played the creepy neighbor John Lindon was another k you alone.
Wonderful time I was raving student here at KU when
I Will were made in Karl Soul and the story
about he was kind of interesting. One job On in
the audience, Lara Sneaks probably hates Michael because I took
the part away from him. He had all those resources
(27:45):
available and just tapped all that because he knew all
those people herk Harvey had access to studios and filming
and development and sound because he filmmaking at the University
of Kansas and Lawrence. This is Candice Hilligos, who played Mary,
(28:08):
the lead role in Carnival Souls. Thank you for the coffee.
It was an sanitary but delicious He thought that by
making Carnival, if Carnival were successful, he could turn that
into a major studio that would make more and higher
budgeted movies. Carnival was a notoriously scrappy production. I've seen
(28:34):
the budget estimated around thirty dollars but in interviews Harvey
said it was less for the starring part. Hilligos reportedly
need I was really the only paid person, and that
was a great payment. Raised Body, who was one of
our cinematographers, said he got seventy five dollars. It was
(28:58):
shot in twenty eight days, and sometimes we went around
the clock. We went twenty four hours, so it was
very hard. I had no idea that in a low
budget there's no double You do all the stunts, So
if they want you to fall off a bridge, you
have to do it. They want you to crash a car,
(29:21):
you have to crash it. He didn't tell me that
when we raced across the bridge in a car that
underneath was a big gas line, and he's wondering if
the two cars going across together. He was very worried
that that gas line could come apart and explode. So
there were a number of moments like that that I
(29:43):
had no idea. As the friends said by coint, it
out about five places that you could have been killed.
One of the stunts Candice had to perform was emerging
from the lake after her car had fallen off the bridge.
When we came back to film that Indian summer had
gone and winter had come. I said, I don't think
(30:06):
I can go in the water. They're standing there, they're
wearing mittens and hats, and they're asking me to go
into that water again. I said, I don't know if
I can do it. I stood in the water and
her Carvey was standing with me in bathing suits and
the sweater. He said, if you don't do it, we
don't have an ending. And I said I can't do it.
(30:29):
So he pushed me and I started to scream. I
screamed so loudly that a highway patrolman out on the
highway heard my screens and came roaring through the woods
looking to see what was happening. When he saw them,
perk Harvey picked me up and threw me in the water.
(30:52):
He jumped out of his car and he ran out
with his gun and he says, what's going on here?
What are you doing with that girl? And they try
I had to tell it was just a movie, and
he says, well, I'm not leaving. I'm watching you. Remember
the day you've got in the car and held me in.
There was a policeman there and he had to leave
(31:13):
or arrest me. So I guess you thought it was
diplomatic to leave, and I think Candice could have killed
him and me both because it was cold. The film
was primarily shot on and in fact designed around location,
most importantly the abandoned Salt Air Pavilion on Utah's Great
Salt Lake, which may have inspired the whole film, as
(31:36):
it is the story's literal carnival of souls. It all
started here at the Kansas River and in the active
imagination of Mr Harvey. As I told you, I went
on vacation and coming back from Los Angeles, I saw
this place, Salt Air, which is located just outside of
Salt Lake. It's very Russian arabisk In architecture, and I
(32:01):
saw it at sunset. It was the weirdest looking thing
I've ever seen. So I stopped the car and walked
about a half mile to take a look at it
and noticed it was deserted. Uh quite a way is
now from the lake because Salt Lake had gone down,
and so the amusement park is sitting away from the lake.
So I came back and talked to John, showed him
a couple of the pictures that I took when I
was there, and said, you know, it's a great location.
(32:22):
We've got to figure out something to do with that.
So John, in his usual way of being invented, comes
up with Carnival of Souls. It was some sort of
lakeside attraction where the lake had basically evaporated, and so
it was just kind of there in the middle of nowhere.
Right off the bat. You see it, You're like, what
the handle is that? Why is it in the middle
(32:43):
of what looks like a desert? What's going on? I mean,
that was some amazing scouting, very thoughtful use of location.
Being out there alone in that pavilion, which is big
enough to hold three thousand, the crew started to get scared.
They actually felt very spooked by the whole place, and
(33:04):
so they said, when everyone goes to the cars, we
go together. It burned down seven years after we had
been there, and this is the only footage they've ever
had on it. Location also informed a character choice, dron
around and the theme of the carnival score so much
(33:29):
pipe work. Well, for a start, I can't think of
another horror film I know where the heroin is an organist,
and it's not just on the soundtrack. It's actually a
really interesting part of the film itself. Well I play.
But they did that because they realized they had an
(33:51):
organ factory, and they said, wouldn't it be wonderful if
we could use the organ factory. So let's make her
an organ You've got the amazing the atmospheric score, which
right from the start you get the close up of
the titles on the murky water of the river where
the cars with the dead bodies, and you get the
(34:14):
probably as horror of yours we have a subconscious association
of nineties horror films or you know, fhatom of the
opera on the organ. But actually it makes sense in
the film as well, where Mary's job is to play
church music. And yet one of the interesting themes in
the film is that she's clearly not religious. And what
does she say that it's just for the paycheck, it's
all about the money for her. Well, Mary, you'll make
(34:36):
a fine organist for that church. Be very satisfying to you.
I think it's just a job. To me, Oh, it's
not quite the attitude for going into church work. I'm
not taking the vows. I'm only going to play the
org And people keep telling her you need to play
like you've got a soul. Mary. It takes more than
(34:57):
intellect to be a musician, but your soul into a
room that's very subtle, and I feel sorry for you
and your lack of soul. In After speedy and thrifty production,
(35:22):
her Carvey was ready to find distribution for his debut feature.
Back in the day, if you had a good distributor,
they would play your film for years. You'd make a
print of it, or a couple of prints of it,
and then they would make them way slowly around the country.
Good evening folks had a hearty welcome to our drive
in theater. We have a wonderful evenings entertainment lined up
(35:45):
for you, one that will provide several hours of pleasurable
relaxation and diversion for you and your family. There were
something like eighteen thousand drive in movie theaters in the
United States at that time line, and they thought if
they could take this movie as an independent and sell
(36:06):
it as a double bill to movie drive in theaters,
they would have eighteen thousand theaters buying their movie. So
they showed it to a couple of drive in people
and they looked at it and they said, well, you
know it kind of looks artsy for us, and they said,
(36:26):
what do you mean? And they said, well, you know,
shouldn't you have her beat up a little and you
know she's in a car accident, shouldn't she come out
of the water with no clothes on. I mean, if
you're going to make it a double bill with Lawn
Channi Jrs. The Devil's Messenger, it's too artistic looking for
a double bill. And I don't think they realized that.
(36:48):
At the time he was trying to market Carnival of Souls.
Somebody was like, well, have you made other films, And
he's like, yeah, like a thousand other films, all these
educational films. Now about those manners, I'm afraid you've got
to improve them. Yeah, who says, so I do, and
(37:11):
practically everyone else that We're never shown a theater, but
they certainly got more eyeballs than a lot of films
I got shown in theaters. Finally, he found this very
small distributor called Her Flying. He said, well, I'll pick
on your movie herks as well. You can have it
(37:31):
for theaters, but you cannot have it for television. It
got kind of a slightly botched release. It didn't have
a very wide distribution in the first place, and then
herk says he went down he was filming a documentary.
Why the time he came home, the first checks from
her sly and had bounced. I went to South America
(37:53):
on another film, and when I came back it was
obvious that they owed us considerable money but hadn't paid
us a cent. And then he heard from a friend,
it's one o'clock am in Florida and I'm watching Carnivals
on television. Well, then her found out that her slon
(38:13):
had sold the movie to a hundred TV stations, and
he became a fugitive and disappeared to some foreign country,
so no one could find him. When I started investigating,
I got no replies, and the next thing I knew,
the president of the company had gone to Europe and
the funds were gone with him. Then it was impossible
(38:34):
to trace it all down. Our Carvey didn't subsequently do
any feature length films after that. He said he never
do another one. He had done over seventy documentaries and commercials,
so he went back to filming them, but he said
he couldn't go through what he went through at the time.
(38:56):
I know he went back to making educational films. Ben
john Is making films up until mid eighties, so he
was a successful educational filmmaker after the fact, and that's
kind of what he did. Pay the bills. Arguably, Herk's
most famous corporate film came in nineteen eighties Shake Hands
(39:17):
with Danger, Shake Hands with Danger, Shake Hands with Danger,
Need a guy who ought to know. I used to
laugh in Safety. Now they called me three finger Joe
(39:38):
Centron a couple of films for Caterpillar Heavy Equipment, Shake
Hands with Danger and Signals were I met the guy
who wrote the music for Shake Hands with Danger, Jim Stringer,
and we talked a lot about how this film was
made and how popular it was. Shake Hands with Danger
Taking Chance. He said, you won't fall, and you'll shave
(39:59):
yourself minute, but you may damn well lose it all.
I'd like to claim credit for making it popular again
to a whole new generation of people, because it is wonderful.
It is like an example of a film that is
still being reference today, and it is still being shown today.
(40:21):
Hervey's last directing work on record is one segment of
an episode in the first season of Reading Rainbow, And
I might even take time out from my favorite rainy
day sport. Perk himself plays the policeman who can't resist
the alula of hopping in a puddle. Those school today
(40:45):
and I've woken them a dad again. School and shopping?
What a thing? Don't feel the blue? Go down your coat?
And radar day shoot Botopol. The botched release of Carnival
(41:06):
of Souls into could have been the end of the story.
Her Carvey might have joined the ranks of countless other
forgotten filmmakers, just another ghost at the party. But it
turns out the Carnival, like its main character, got the
chance to live a second life. You say, what is
(41:27):
it called classic? That kind of concept really hit in
the eighties. I mean there were cult movies prior to
that that we're kind of midnight movies that showed in
some theaters at night. John Waters was definitely part of
that Rocky Heart picture show, Razor Head. Those are all
(41:48):
popular things where people would get stone and go see
a movie at midnight. Just cut them up like regular chickens. Sure,
just cut them up like regular chickens. Carnival Souls maybe
had that some programmer was like, oh, this film was
awesome and programmed it, but it didn't take off really
(42:09):
until it was available on VHS. After the distribution debacle,
the copyright lapsed on Carnival of Souls, bringing the film
into the public domain. Ironically, that's why people started watching
it again. When the VHS stores and the VHS market appeared,
(42:32):
it was a frenzy of content people trying to find
content to put on VHS tapes to sell the fact
that this had a public domain status meant that there
were lots of companies that were finding a print, transferring
it and then releasing it for sale on VHS, so
in dollar bins you would have Carnival Souls. I think
(42:54):
that's what made it cult status, is the fact that
you could see it everywhere. It was kind of like,
it's a wonderful life. It's all one life and sky.
When It's a wonderful Life came out, it wasn't really
well received. People didn't like it, the story, it was old,
(43:15):
too weird, please I want to live again. I want
to live again. And it fell into public domain because
they just didn't renew it. The studio was like but
TV stations started showing it because it was free to
show it, and it was Christmas related, and it had
like actors that people liked. Who are you? I told you, George,
(43:39):
I'm your God, your angel God, I know what you
told about it. So it got super popular and so
popular that Republic Pictures like retroactively figured out a way
to pull it out of public domain. But the nature
of it being in public domain that's what made it popular.
If they had renewed the copyright, it wouldn't have been popular. Definitely.
(43:59):
I want to get out of here. I want to
get away from here. I think that that's what happened here,
is that you had lots of people that could see
it easily all over the United States. It's bound now lone, yeah, nine,
(44:20):
and you watch it at home and it has a
good slow burn to it, or it was shown on
your chiller theater back in the day because it was
inexpensive for them to show it anyway. I know your problem.
You just saw a carnival of souls. How would you
describe it? Was unsanitary but delicious. That's how you kind
(44:40):
of seed occult film, as you just show it all
the time everywhere I gather. In an American context, it
was shown quite regularly late at night in the wee
hours of the morning, and so it was probably caught
by a lot of people who didn't quite know what
they were watching everywhere. I'm not going to let me go.
I think that he did get to see the resurgence
(45:02):
of the film as a cult status, which is great.
It wasn't just he did it and then it languished
and died. People were actively still seeing it. And we're
beginning to make phone calls about her. Her attorney, you
were in that film. When this was first shown, it
was shown primarily in drive and it was part of
a double bill with The Devil's Messenger. And now in
(45:25):
it's rerelease, it's being shown in the art houses where
just where we would like to head up the first
time around, And as far as we're concerned, that's great.
Makes all the difference. It became an underground swell. It
started being picked up from colleges and it started to
grow and to grow and to grow. And then her said,
(45:46):
U teacher said, I was just in Sweden, and she said,
I'm bringing you your reviews for Carnivals Souls in Sweden,
And then he learned it was in Germany, it was
in England. It went to Italy. He got invited to
the Munique Film Festival. When he got to the theater,
(46:06):
it was sold out, and he said afterwards that kept
him on the stage till two o'clock in the morning,
asking him questions. It's nice too, though, isn't it when
the underdogs finally start to get a bit of recognition.
I think there's a nice kind of afterlife for this
film that that will probably only continue to get stronger,
which is very well deserved. The name Carnival's Souls was
(46:32):
licensed from writer John Clifford for a film that appeared
to have nothing to do with the original. They took
the name of the film and they made a flasher
film out of it. West Graven Presents Show Time Carnival
(46:54):
of Souls. It never got so to a theater. It
went just to DVDs and no one ever really saw it.
Partly it was alludic. Candice Hiligoths had also been developing
her own sequel. I spent two years building interest in it,
(47:16):
and we had an option, and then our option ended
and we went back to resign it with her Carvey again,
and her Carvey was dying of cancer. Her Carvey passed
away in Despite the fact, the only helmed one feature film.
(47:37):
The legacy of his cinematic style has lived on all
kinds of productions have been accused of taking influence from
Carnival Souls. When Carnival sort of got lost in the beginning,
it became a hit when it was revived twenty years later,
and then everyone said Carnival started it all. Carnival of Souls. Really,
(47:59):
Haspile owned a long tradition of American late twentieth century
horror films. Our movie was copied many times. In fact,
the most famous one was Michael Jackson's thriller who was
inspired from the ghouls that were dancing in the Salt
Air pavilion. I'm not like other guys, of course, not
(48:23):
that's why I love you. No, I mean I'm different.
Given David Lynch, I'd be surprised if he hadn't seen it,
given an obviously a cinephile, and would know. I think
his antecedents well. But in my hot even people thought
(48:44):
blue Velvet and carry a girl who lives in that
creepy house with a crazy mother had some elements of
Carnival in it. Then, of course Beetle Juice copied us beetlejuice,
it's your dad. Now I have a living dead. In
(49:05):
the beginning, George ra Merrow talked about how he had
been Carnival and I had inspired him. What's happening? What Happening?
Night of the Living Dead was also maybe a little
bit overlooked at the time, but did quite rapidly gain
a culture reputation and then a mainstream reputation because George
(49:27):
ra Merrow obviously went on to even bigger and better things.
Don't worry about him, and I can handle him. Probably
be a lot more of them as soon as they
find out about us, whereas that didn't quite happen unfortunately
for her. Carvey Carnival two is an early example of
a now popular movie trip the twist ending in which
(49:48):
the perspective character was dead all along, living out a
ghost walk upon the earth. Carnival of Souls really has
spawned a long tradition of American little fenty a century
horror films about people who have died in car accidents
but don't actually know it till the end of the film.
So that's where I kind of came across it. Sorry
(50:08):
to take stop. It was God to tell me what
to do you obviously have the precedent of classic nineteenth
century American literature with Ambrose Spears an occurrence Atdile Creek Bridge,
which is maybe the pioneering literary text of that type
(50:36):
promise of that really quick in Civil War, somebody's been
hung for either being a trader, was a prisoner, or
something like. That's being hung like on this bridge, and
it seems like the protagonist has escaped death by hanging.
The rope breaks as he's been hung, and he lands
in the river and basically swims away. He's being shot
(50:59):
at all that stuff, but eventually escaped. He goes through
all these adventures and makes his way back to his girlfriend.
His sweetheart, who is on a plantation, is running to her,
and he runs to embrace her and kiss her, and
then spoiler alert, he's hume the whole story is actually
(51:20):
hallucination he's had in the moments before death, and so
what it is is it's everything that happened as he
was descending being hung. So it's like his life suddenly
fleshed out this whole thing and then he died. Hornible
Souls has that same type of feel to occurrence at
(51:41):
out Creek Bridge the commonality of their dead and their
brain is kind of going down this crazy you know,
it's like a dream. It felt like I was in
there for days and it was only like thirty seconds.
Is she going to hell? Or is she being escorted
to death? It kind of plays with a lot of things.
It doesn't spell anything else, which I think is kind
(52:02):
of great. And there is that payoff that educational film has,
which is, you know, pulling a dead body out of
a car. So don't dry and race because you'll be
haunted in the beer seconds before you die. For a
guy who devoted his professional life to the education of
(52:24):
others through the art and grammar of filmmaking and gave
us so many gems that may have needed the passage
of time to fully appreciate her, Carvey seems to have
remained pretty humble about his one crossover success. Well, all
I've said about Carnival Soulvis and it's a heck of
a note when a film that has failed financially is
(52:48):
your total breadth of success in the future film market.
(53:24):
This episode of a Femily was written and produced by
Max Williams, Trevor Young, and Dallas Williams. With special thanks
to Brett Wood, Anti Terry and Tiffany Defote from Cult
Radio Lagoga for allowing us to excerpt their interview with
Candice Hillip on crag Law. Hear the full broadcast and
(53:44):
much more at c r A g G Radio dot com.
Bernice Murphy is the author of the book The Highway
Horror Film and the upcoming The California goth And Fiction Film.
Follow her on Twitter that Murph Gotha and Skip. Elzheimer
is the eyes and ears behind the Avy Geeks ephemeral
(54:06):
film mark watch her Carvey Centron shorts and other sixteen
million in the Masterpieces over at a vy geeks dot com,
links in videos on our website ephemeral dot com. Wh
You know, you have to be careful about making a
weird show or watching a weird show. It may come
back to haunt you. Enjoy ephemeralist production of My Heart
three D audio for full exposure. Listen with that phones.
(00:30):
When I say filmmaker, who do you think of? Maybe
someone who directs features or TV shows or documentaries. Perhaps
they're employed by a studio or work independently. Of course,
(00:52):
there's all kinds of other filmmakers, students, amateurs, people who
make art films and short films and cut some video installations.
And then there's folks like her Harvey. The lens of
a motion picture projector is an eye that can help
you stimulate, motivate, educate your students. I think the most
(01:21):
partner thing when I was looking at Harvey was that
he was a maker of industrial films, films that were
largely made for distribution in high schools. In particular. I'm
Bernie Murphy. I'm an associate professor in the School of
English at Trinity College, Dublin. Films made for the classroom
have several purposes. It helps when you're choosing a film
(01:43):
to know that there is a connection between the purpose
of that film and the techniques used to achieve that purpose.
It's only when you dig into the whole concept of
educational film and an educational film company then you realize
that there's tu tours, there's real legitimate filmmakers who really
did good ones from Skip Alzheimer and I'm the founder
(02:07):
of the eighty Geeks Educational Film Archive in Raleigh, North Carolina.
In an over three decade career, her Carvey directed likely
hundreds of educational films, but best remembered it's his lone
feature two. Carnival of Souls in a nut Challenge falls
(02:29):
under that category of supernatural horror films. Carnival of Souls
is about a young woman called Mary who is in
uh drag race. At the very start of the film,
she's writing in a car with some friends and these
two guys pull up and the challenge on the show
(02:50):
a drag race? Do you want to drive? But during
the race, the women's car falls off the bridge and
it seems like everyone said, but then Mary clambers up
(03:10):
on the river bank and she's actually alive. Are you
all right? How do you get out? But this one
we better get you back to town. As the phone
goes on, Mary starts a new job in a new city.
She moves to Salt Lake City and becomes a church organist.
(03:31):
It seems things are going okay for a while, but
then gradually more and more spooky things start to happen.
She's kind of being haunted by this ghostly creature that
she sees, the Ghoule, as portrayed by director her Carvey,
a mute in white face paint. She turns, she sees somebody,
(03:53):
and then she turns around. It's not there anymore. She
rents this room whom at this boarding house and meets
another person who lives at the house. He's trying to
make time with her, and she's not interested. I thought
doing this at Elvis. Yeah yeah, when you ask me,
(04:15):
I'm John Linden, I mean Neil right across the hall.
Nice to meet, would you excuse me? Yeah, yeah, I'm
just wondering. Stand right there the creepy neighborhood. Oh, good morning,
I heard your love. I know you'd be up who
was clearly a sex predator next door. I really appreciate
you're taking me out to see me. I've had a
(04:36):
miserable night. If you had all forget it, come on here,
join a party drink up. At one point, she's driving
past this pavilion that used to be at this lake,
and she's told that they shouldn't go in there because
it would be illegal. This used to be quiet of place.
It's been deserted for a long time. Now will you
(04:57):
take me in? My goodness, no, it isn't safe out
there anymore. She's beginning to get kind of creeped out,
and is also being very unsocial. Don't you want to
join in the things that other people do, share the
experiences of other people. I don't think capable of being
very close to people. She's disconnected from her family, her community,
her job. We'll have to have some sort of reception.
(05:20):
Couldn't we just get that. I don't suppose it's an
absolute necessity. I don't know what some of the ladies
will say. If they say, I'm a fine organist. That
should be enough, shouldn't it. Well, yeah, of course, we'll
let it go at that for the time being. But
my dear, you cannot live in isolation from the human race.
(05:44):
You know. She goes and is playing for the minister,
but then it kind of becomes creepy. Yeah, circrileg what
are you playing in this church. Have you no respect?
(06:09):
Do you feel no reverence? She feels like she's kind
of losing her mind a little bit, but she's also
not engaging with people and just feels like out of
touch with everything. The department store, when she's going to
buy address, suddenly she's muted and no one can hear
or see her eye. But there's this very subtle kind
(06:32):
of rippling effect, so you get the sense that something
has changed, but you don't quite know why. She talks
to the doctor, who tries to help her but kind
of dismisses her concerns. Look, look, you've had a fright.
Hysteria won't solve anything. Not control yourself. By the end
of the film, Mary has been kind of pursued by
(06:52):
a spectral figure and actually spectral figures. She keeps obsessing
about the pavilion to go back there. He's trying to
take me back somewhere, and she actually ends up there.
Everybody there's ghouls, and there's this kind of dance that
(07:15):
takes place at the pavilion. The following day, they go
to the pavilion to look for Mary, and they find
footprints and stand that just end. The cars get over
there and no no foot them for leading up there
(07:35):
here and then nothing do you have a return At
the end of the film to the scene of the
crash back in Kansas, the police pull the car that
she was in from the river, and the spoiler alarge
her body is in the front seat with the two women.
(07:58):
It becomes clear that actually she has been dead all along.
The film itself has been about someone who believes they're
still alive but actually isn't. Well. It's about arguably about
many different things, but the story beats alone don't really
give a sense of what it's like to watch Carnival
(08:19):
of Souls. If you explain the plot, it doesn't do
justice to the atmosphere that the film has. It has
a real feel of kind of a Twilight Zone episode,
what's the matter with everyonehy don't they answer me? But
(08:41):
it is much more impressionistic, So it's like someone saw
a bunch of Italian or French cinema and then made
this future length chiller that has the supernatural element trying
to prevent me from living, trying to take me back somewhere.
It's one of those films that if you've seen it
(09:01):
and you sat through it, I think it stays with you.
It's so intensely focused on Mary and her experience. I
like being with you, really I do. I don't want
to be alone tonight. I want to be near you
that I think we end up, even if we don't
necessarily initially intend to, becoming caught up in her plight
(09:22):
and the sense that something is terribly wrong. Will you helping?
I need to help, but we don't quite know what.
There's that sense that things are somewhat askew in reality.
I don't belong in the world. What it is, something
separates me from other people. At first, it might perhaps
(09:44):
seem a little bit hokey, fill it out, independence on maaker,
little budget, not really a lot of professional actors. I
didn't known any harm. I just stopped to get a drink.
But the acting as a very raw kind of quality
to it at times. I don't know what Some of
(10:06):
the set pieces in the film we are absolutely superb.
The extended highway driving scene at night, which is brilliantly staged.
It is so unique in terms of its cinematography, and
there's a visual and kind of editorial sophistication there that
maybe you might necessarily be expecting from a film with
that budget level. There's also one off culter quality about
(10:30):
the film that maybe is in part because of its
low budget nature, as is often the way in low
budget horror filmmaking, when it's done well, actually adds to
the unease that it generates. When is the next post leave?
I must get on. It's not slick. It's not the
usual kind of narrative grammar that maybe a more conventional
film would have, but there's a sense that anything can happen.
(10:53):
Came you doctor, my last hope. It has more in
common in some ways with an art house film, and
the ways in which often they will up end are
sort of visual or narrative expectations. It's not your typical
I don't want to slag off the horror genre, but
I think it's unique and it remains unique. It has,
(11:17):
I think, a genuine eeriness that really holds up even today.
I think it has a real claim to be one
of the most important American horror films actually of the
nineteen sixties. I think it's been tremendously influential, but in
ways that aren't always fully appreciated. But there's no getting
away from the fact that it is a film about
(11:38):
the human cost of the interest driving. It's one of
those films that dramatizes the impact of road fatalities and
the idea that travel by car and the highways actually
have a very negative downside. Higas river is right now
and with all the mud and sand it's carrying and
may never find that car. I've first studied the film
(12:01):
about six or seven years ago. I was working on
a book called The Highway Horror Film, which is about
the cultural ramifications of the interested highway system, the effect
that the creation of this vast network of highways had
upon the horror film. In particular, by ninety one, something
like one million Americans had already died in car accidents.
(12:24):
Today's heavy traffic and high speed cars make the odds
heavy against the non drinking driver. You had an immense
road building operation that was underway. Our highways are engineered
for safety and convenience. It's sort of the dawn of
American teenagers. Hey, how would you and very like to
go out to the like tomorrow? What time? Early wealthier
(12:49):
ones in the nineteen thirties and forties would have had cars,
But you had kind of a more widespread introduction of
mass automobility generally, but particularly amongst the younger age group.
It became apparent with the statistics that they were disproportionately
affecting young people in particular. A seventeen year old boy
driving a red convertible comes over a hillcrest and rams
(13:11):
into a red hardtop that came out of a side rope.
Here is the young man critically injured, and this is
his car. So you had in the nineteen fifties a
raft of films that were essentially targeted towards a teenage audience,
and there were cautionary films Signal thirty the code that
has a morbid meeting of the men of the Ohio
(13:33):
State Highway of Control. A good driver stacy film, a
good drug film, a good alcohol film, a good VD
film is scaring you. The lad may have been fast
on the gridiron, but speed on the highway is at
best a losing and deadly gay. There's a setup of
the person who you were made to identify with. A
(13:56):
young man speeds home after enjoying a rollicking state party.
He goes through something tragic, and then this is why
it was tragic, because of drugs, because of drinking, because
they didn't drive safely. One, the damage to the car
was slight a repair bill of would have covered it easily. Second,
(14:17):
the man and his wife were planning a party for
the next day, a party observing his young son's birthday.
And then there's a reconciliation. If we educate ourselves to
our dangers and our responsibilities, we can expect accident free highways,
We can obey the law. We can use courtesy and consideration.
(14:41):
Let's all of us regard the automobile as a useful
servant and priceless necessity, not as a weapon to name
and kill. I think you can see why the genre
would have internalized, particularly since essentially several generations of American
teenagers were forced to watch this kind of material real.
Had the speeding truck driver observed the forty five mile
(15:03):
per hour speed limit, there would have been a plus
safety factor. I came to Carnival of Souls because it
quickly became clear to me that it was really a
foundational text in the highway horror film. I know, I'll
tear your story about it. It wasn't our faults. Yeah,
we were the first ones on the bridge and coming
(15:25):
along following the tracks and they wanted to get around us,
I guess, and if they lost control when they dropped
carry it in crowd of them all. Her carve was
obviously someone who in a previous filmmaking capacity, had made
films about the dangers of reckless driving and young people
misbehaving in cars nobody can afford to drive with alcohol
(15:46):
present in the body. It makes complete sense to me
that it would have filtered into popular culture in later years.
Carnival of Souls literally begins with young people in a
dry race that they shouldn't be in, and then a
terrible accident unfolds. And that's a really really typical feature
of the highway safety films of the nineteen sixties in particular.
(16:10):
I don't know that it's explicitly saying, you know, kids
drive carefully, which obviously the highway safety phones were very
explicitly saying that all of these resulted from violations of
simple traffic regulations. It's up to you and your own driving. Heavens,
But there is a kind of a verity style to
Carnival of Souls. That girl. It has an unusual sense
(16:33):
of maybe realism for a low budget horror film of
that era. David four yesterday she was the only one
of three girls to survive an accident. It makes you
feel a little of something like how granted? I think
you could argue that some of that sense of maybe
reality and one deity has come perhaps from the industrial films.
(16:55):
What can we do and what can you do to
prevent you've nod of lenquency? You tell us The demand
(17:19):
for classroom films inspired childhood friends Arthur Wolfe and Russell
Monster to found the Centron Corporation. What's interesting about them
is that they were based in Lawrence, Kansas. Centron Films
a firm in Lawrence, Kansas. Have you ever been there? No?
And Emily always visited the family here. That's where University
(17:41):
of Kansas is. They were pulling a lot of their
talent from University of Kansas. That's where her card became from.
I got started making films. Uh I was here at
the university in the theatrical department, in the theater department
up here as an instructor at that time, and uh
(18:02):
I would come down to Centro on once in a
while as an actor. And finally they asked me if
I would like to direct for them, and I said sure.
It would be kind of fun to try. So I
came down full time as a director at that time,
and that was twelve thirteen years before we did Carnival.
After two in the Navy during World War Two and
(18:23):
a decision not to pursue a career in chemical engineering,
Herk Harvey enrolled in the University of Kansas to study
theater while acting and directing school productions. Perk earned bachelor's
and master's degrees from KU, and with a doctorate from
the University of Colorado, came back to Kansas to teach
(18:46):
acting and filmmaking. In nineteen fifty two. While continuing to teach,
Harvey started working for the centro On Corporation, directing company
productions for over three decades. What started out as a
director and remained a director for thirty or five years
at centro On. The interesting thing about it was that
(19:11):
with each project, of course, the nature of the job change,
because we were making educational industrials that included a variety
of subjects, and also in some of the industrials we
got into musicals and extensive travel and this sort of thing.
So the job itself was very interesting and that it
was always different, but across the Board of Industrial and
(19:35):
Educational Films. Casting crew info can be difficult, sometimes impossible
to track down because credits were rarely ever included, So
you don't know who directed it, you don't know who
live it, you don't know who photographed it, you don't
know any of the actor's names. Accounts vary as to
how many and which films Herk made for Centron, but
(19:58):
it's well documented that he worked there from two until
Here are some of the classics that we believe to
bear his stamp. But couldn't you manage to arrange your
time so you could have a little fun too. I
have a certain amount of homework to do, and I
like to get done on time, but you have a
(20:19):
whole weekend cheating a snob? Those are ones that are
open ended, with a student talking in the beginning and
then telling the story about what's going to happen. Did
you hear about John Taylor? They voted him out a
student council representative because he was called cheating who John Taylor?
Voted down John Taylor? And then you have to decide
(20:46):
at the end, like what you're gonna do? Is the
group justified in judging everything Sarah does as snobbery. What
do you think? Why study Industrial Arts is part of
a series. There's why study Latin? Why study science? Why
(21:07):
study home economics? Here's an elective that you have in
high school that you could take, and this is why
you should take it. And Joe will need score as
a man who can translate and build those ideas on
paper into the actual homes, churches, schools, and factors of
the future. Some of you may be spakesmen who must
understand the impact and implications of science on society manners
(21:32):
in school. This boy is acting up in class and
is not allowed to take recess and see has to
clean the chalkboards. Larry, I just wanted to remind you
it's your boards, Thomas Rand. We're gonna play ball at
recess honors. You better get somebody else, some girl and Chalky. Fine, Larry,
(21:55):
my name is Chocky. I think he's a devil who's
actually chopped. I think I can trust you, Larry. After all,
I'm just trying to be your friend. Basically takes the
boy to task on his behavior. I'm here for a
purpose to do something about your manners. What do you mean,
(22:16):
my man, I'm worried about you. Larry, Hey, hey, what
are you doing? I'm gonna wipe you out, That's what
my heavens. You are a bad mannered young man, aren't you,
and teaches him a lesson. I'm ready to go, Larry,
oh jee, No, Chalky, I can't do that. I need
(22:38):
you to help me with my manners. No, Larry, you
don't need me anymore. You can learn good manners yourself
by watching the good manners of others, and he eventually
learns from it. Larry, you've done an excellent job on
the chalkboard. Thank you, Miss Ryan. What about prejudice is
(22:58):
pretty good because it is high school students. I don't
know about you, but I think the best party you've
ever said North And there is one student who you
never see. This is the story of Bruce Jones, who
walked in a shadow of hate and suspicions. Who is
being prejudiced against? You see the reconciliation. You see how
(23:21):
they process that, and it's pretty great. The thing is,
it wasn't Bruce at all. I was the one neatly
fitting people into categories because of where they go to church,
or what their fathers do, or what the color of
their skin is. The Innocent Party is one of several
venerial disease films that Centron did. The Quarkscrews. Things of
(23:45):
the terms of these films talk about young adults and
kids are having sex and they're getting venerial disease, and
I'm talking about it and it's a problem. I'm not
here to like a moral jud but you and I
know that it was kindtracted sexual intercourse with an infected person.
That that beat that only summer of love thing that
(24:07):
was much later. Choosing a classroom film is kind of
an ad Proper use of film heightens the importance of
the teacher and makes his contribution all the more necessary.
This is how you use an educational film. Such films
provide common experiences through which your students can more easily
gain a new appreciation of themselves and the factors which
(24:29):
shape their lives. The narrator here seen on camera is
her curvy himself. Let's take a look at some screen examples.
They would probably give that away to a school system
and say, but here, here's a film about choosing classroom films,
and here's a catalog, and you get to go through
and pick what fits and why you would pick a
(24:50):
film for a given class. You will develop your own
skill in evaluating films by learning to recognize some of
the film techniques we have demonstrated here. Now, each of
these serve an essential purpose, but remember too that any
one of them may serve a secondary purpose, which may
be very important in relation to your teaching goals. In
(25:12):
an educational film, you have eleven minutes to tell what
you need to tell, and so how do you relay
that information? How do you break down the shots? You
have to be very efficient, and you have to be
very deliberate. I feel like that deliberateness and that efficiency
helped Carnival of Souls. Thirty five millimeter was very expensive,
(25:34):
and the fact that they had shot so many educational
films was kind of a similar criteria of look and
got to knock it out in the thoughtful way, in
a smart way. I don't think shots were wasted in
that film. The idea of doing a thirty five millimeter
feature film for thirteen thousand dollars cache is a little
staggering even then, but we did get the money and
(25:57):
decided yes, we can do it, and start and shooting
the film in order to make Carnival. Harvey relied heavily
on his Centron rollo. Dex Carnival of Souls writer John
Clifford was also on staff with Centron. The nice thing
about working with her is that, over the years, to
(26:18):
come up with something difficult, he always says, well, you're right,
that's the way you think it ought to be, and
I'll get it shut. I'll try to, so you know,
writers appreciate it. He's asked me do the writing, and
I stay out of his dre There's a lot of
(26:38):
actors in there that show up in Centron films, and
a lot of locations that show up in Centron films
as well, So it's like, oh, I know that guy.
Obviously that guy grow up like he was in this
y study science film, and now he's a hot rotter.
Larry Sneakers, the cut who began the drag race which
started the film, Joe, drag your foot boy. Look what
we got here? Now you wanted right? Uh. Sneagus was
(27:02):
also the movie's production manager, so he borrowed pretty heavily
from there, and he also borrowed pretty heavily from University
of Kansas is Dramatic School. Come on, what do you
I'm an alcoholic look. I just like the s thought
that they often a good mood. That's all. You must
be hilarious by noons. Lifelong theater teacher Sidney Burger, who
(27:23):
played the creepy neighbor John Lindon was another k you alone.
Wonderful time I was raving student here at KU when
I Will were made in Karl Soul and the story
about he was kind of interesting. One job On in
the audience, Lara Sneaks probably hates Michael because I took
the part away from him. He had all those resources
(27:45):
available and just tapped all that because he knew all
those people herk Harvey had access to studios and filming
and development and sound because he filmmaking at the University
of Kansas and Lawrence. This is Candice Hilligos, who played Mary,
(28:08):
the lead role in Carnival Souls. Thank you for the coffee.
It was an sanitary but delicious He thought that by
making Carnival, if Carnival were successful, he could turn that
into a major studio that would make more and higher
budgeted movies. Carnival was a notoriously scrappy production. I've seen
(28:34):
the budget estimated around thirty dollars but in interviews Harvey
said it was less for the starring part. Hilligos reportedly
need I was really the only paid person, and that
was a great payment. Raised Body, who was one of
our cinematographers, said he got seventy five dollars. It was
(28:58):
shot in twenty eight days, and sometimes we went around
the clock. We went twenty four hours, so it was
very hard. I had no idea that in a low
budget there's no double You do all the stunts, So
if they want you to fall off a bridge, you
have to do it. They want you to crash a car,
(29:21):
you have to crash it. He didn't tell me that
when we raced across the bridge in a car that
underneath was a big gas line, and he's wondering if
the two cars going across together. He was very worried
that that gas line could come apart and explode. So
there were a number of moments like that that I
(29:43):
had no idea. As the friends said by coint, it
out about five places that you could have been killed.
One of the stunts Candice had to perform was emerging
from the lake after her car had fallen off the bridge.
When we came back to film that Indian summer had
gone and winter had come. I said, I don't think
(30:06):
I can go in the water. They're standing there, they're
wearing mittens and hats, and they're asking me to go
into that water again. I said, I don't know if
I can do it. I stood in the water and
her Carvey was standing with me in bathing suits and
the sweater. He said, if you don't do it, we
don't have an ending. And I said I can't do it.
(30:29):
So he pushed me and I started to scream. I
screamed so loudly that a highway patrolman out on the
highway heard my screens and came roaring through the woods
looking to see what was happening. When he saw them,
perk Harvey picked me up and threw me in the water.
(30:52):
He jumped out of his car and he ran out
with his gun and he says, what's going on here?
What are you doing with that girl? And they try
I had to tell it was just a movie, and
he says, well, I'm not leaving. I'm watching you. Remember
the day you've got in the car and held me in.
There was a policeman there and he had to leave
(31:13):
or arrest me. So I guess you thought it was
diplomatic to leave, and I think Candice could have killed
him and me both because it was cold. The film
was primarily shot on and in fact designed around location,
most importantly the abandoned Salt Air Pavilion on Utah's Great
Salt Lake, which may have inspired the whole film, as
(31:36):
it is the story's literal carnival of souls. It all
started here at the Kansas River and in the active
imagination of Mr Harvey. As I told you, I went
on vacation and coming back from Los Angeles, I saw
this place, Salt Air, which is located just outside of
Salt Lake. It's very Russian arabisk In architecture, and I
(32:01):
saw it at sunset. It was the weirdest looking thing
I've ever seen. So I stopped the car and walked
about a half mile to take a look at it
and noticed it was deserted. Uh quite a way is
now from the lake because Salt Lake had gone down,
and so the amusement park is sitting away from the lake.
So I came back and talked to John, showed him
a couple of the pictures that I took when I
was there, and said, you know, it's a great location.
(32:22):
We've got to figure out something to do with that.
So John, in his usual way of being invented, comes
up with Carnival of Souls. It was some sort of
lakeside attraction where the lake had basically evaporated, and so
it was just kind of there in the middle of nowhere.
Right off the bat. You see it, You're like, what
the handle is that? Why is it in the middle
(32:43):
of what looks like a desert? What's going on? I mean,
that was some amazing scouting, very thoughtful use of location.
Being out there alone in that pavilion, which is big
enough to hold three thousand, the crew started to get scared.
They actually felt very spooked by the whole place, and
(33:04):
so they said, when everyone goes to the cars, we
go together. It burned down seven years after we had
been there, and this is the only footage they've ever
had on it. Location also informed a character choice, dron
around and the theme of the carnival score so much
(33:29):
pipe work. Well, for a start, I can't think of
another horror film I know where the heroin is an organist,
and it's not just on the soundtrack. It's actually a
really interesting part of the film itself. Well I play.
But they did that because they realized they had an
(33:51):
organ factory, and they said, wouldn't it be wonderful if
we could use the organ factory. So let's make her
an organ You've got the amazing the atmospheric score, which
right from the start you get the close up of
the titles on the murky water of the river where
the cars with the dead bodies, and you get the
(34:14):
probably as horror of yours we have a subconscious association
of nineties horror films or you know, fhatom of the
opera on the organ. But actually it makes sense in
the film as well, where Mary's job is to play
church music. And yet one of the interesting themes in
the film is that she's clearly not religious. And what
does she say that it's just for the paycheck, it's
all about the money for her. Well, Mary, you'll make
(34:36):
a fine organist for that church. Be very satisfying to you.
I think it's just a job. To me, Oh, it's
not quite the attitude for going into church work. I'm
not taking the vows. I'm only going to play the
org And people keep telling her you need to play
like you've got a soul. Mary. It takes more than
(34:57):
intellect to be a musician, but your soul into a
room that's very subtle, and I feel sorry for you
and your lack of soul. In After speedy and thrifty production,
(35:22):
her Carvey was ready to find distribution for his debut feature.
Back in the day, if you had a good distributor,
they would play your film for years. You'd make a
print of it, or a couple of prints of it,
and then they would make them way slowly around the country.
Good evening folks had a hearty welcome to our drive
in theater. We have a wonderful evenings entertainment lined up
(35:45):
for you, one that will provide several hours of pleasurable
relaxation and diversion for you and your family. There were
something like eighteen thousand drive in movie theaters in the
United States at that time line, and they thought if
they could take this movie as an independent and sell
(36:06):
it as a double bill to movie drive in theaters,
they would have eighteen thousand theaters buying their movie. So
they showed it to a couple of drive in people
and they looked at it and they said, well, you
know it kind of looks artsy for us, and they said,
(36:26):
what do you mean? And they said, well, you know,
shouldn't you have her beat up a little and you
know she's in a car accident, shouldn't she come out
of the water with no clothes on. I mean, if
you're going to make it a double bill with Lawn
Channi Jrs. The Devil's Messenger, it's too artistic looking for
a double bill. And I don't think they realized that.
(36:48):
At the time he was trying to market Carnival of Souls.
Somebody was like, well, have you made other films, And
he's like, yeah, like a thousand other films, all these
educational films. Now about those manners, I'm afraid you've got
to improve them. Yeah, who says, so I do, and
(37:11):
practically everyone else that We're never shown a theater, but
they certainly got more eyeballs than a lot of films
I got shown in theaters. Finally, he found this very
small distributor called Her Flying. He said, well, I'll pick
on your movie herks as well. You can have it
(37:31):
for theaters, but you cannot have it for television. It
got kind of a slightly botched release. It didn't have
a very wide distribution in the first place, and then
herk says he went down he was filming a documentary.
Why the time he came home, the first checks from
her sly and had bounced. I went to South America
(37:53):
on another film, and when I came back it was
obvious that they owed us considerable money but hadn't paid
us a cent. And then he heard from a friend,
it's one o'clock am in Florida and I'm watching Carnivals
on television. Well, then her found out that her slon
(38:13):
had sold the movie to a hundred TV stations, and
he became a fugitive and disappeared to some foreign country,
so no one could find him. When I started investigating,
I got no replies, and the next thing I knew,
the president of the company had gone to Europe and
the funds were gone with him. Then it was impossible
(38:34):
to trace it all down. Our Carvey didn't subsequently do
any feature length films after that. He said he never
do another one. He had done over seventy documentaries and commercials,
so he went back to filming them, but he said
he couldn't go through what he went through at the time.
(38:56):
I know he went back to making educational films. Ben
john Is making films up until mid eighties, so he
was a successful educational filmmaker after the fact, and that's
kind of what he did. Pay the bills. Arguably, Herk's
most famous corporate film came in nineteen eighties Shake Hands
(39:17):
with Danger, Shake Hands with Danger, Shake Hands with Danger,
Need a guy who ought to know. I used to
laugh in Safety. Now they called me three finger Joe
(39:38):
Centron a couple of films for Caterpillar Heavy Equipment, Shake
Hands with Danger and Signals were I met the guy
who wrote the music for Shake Hands with Danger, Jim Stringer,
and we talked a lot about how this film was
made and how popular it was. Shake Hands with Danger
Taking Chance. He said, you won't fall, and you'll shave
(39:59):
yourself minute, but you may damn well lose it all.
I'd like to claim credit for making it popular again
to a whole new generation of people, because it is wonderful.
It is like an example of a film that is
still being reference today, and it is still being shown today.
(40:21):
Hervey's last directing work on record is one segment of
an episode in the first season of Reading Rainbow, And
I might even take time out from my favorite rainy
day sport. Perk himself plays the policeman who can't resist
the alula of hopping in a puddle. Those school today
(40:45):
and I've woken them a dad again. School and shopping?
What a thing? Don't feel the blue? Go down your coat?
And radar day shoot Botopol. The botched release of Carnival
(41:06):
of Souls into could have been the end of the story.
Her Carvey might have joined the ranks of countless other
forgotten filmmakers, just another ghost at the party. But it
turns out the Carnival, like its main character, got the
chance to live a second life. You say, what is
(41:27):
it called classic? That kind of concept really hit in
the eighties. I mean there were cult movies prior to
that that we're kind of midnight movies that showed in
some theaters at night. John Waters was definitely part of
that Rocky Heart picture show, Razor Head. Those are all
(41:48):
popular things where people would get stone and go see
a movie at midnight. Just cut them up like regular chickens. Sure,
just cut them up like regular chickens. Carnival Souls maybe
had that some programmer was like, oh, this film was
awesome and programmed it, but it didn't take off really
(42:09):
until it was available on VHS. After the distribution debacle,
the copyright lapsed on Carnival of Souls, bringing the film
into the public domain. Ironically, that's why people started watching
it again. When the VHS stores and the VHS market appeared,
(42:32):
it was a frenzy of content people trying to find
content to put on VHS tapes to sell the fact
that this had a public domain status meant that there
were lots of companies that were finding a print, transferring
it and then releasing it for sale on VHS, so
in dollar bins you would have Carnival Souls. I think
(42:54):
that's what made it cult status, is the fact that
you could see it everywhere. It was kind of like,
it's a wonderful life. It's all one life and sky.
When It's a wonderful Life came out, it wasn't really
well received. People didn't like it, the story, it was old,
(43:15):
too weird, please I want to live again. I want
to live again. And it fell into public domain because
they just didn't renew it. The studio was like but
TV stations started showing it because it was free to
show it, and it was Christmas related, and it had
like actors that people liked. Who are you? I told you, George,
(43:39):
I'm your God, your angel God, I know what you
told about it. So it got super popular and so
popular that Republic Pictures like retroactively figured out a way
to pull it out of public domain. But the nature
of it being in public domain that's what made it popular.
If they had renewed the copyright, it wouldn't have been popular. Definitely.
(43:59):
I want to get out of here. I want to
get away from here. I think that that's what happened here,
is that you had lots of people that could see
it easily all over the United States. It's bound now lone, yeah, nine,
(44:20):
and you watch it at home and it has a
good slow burn to it, or it was shown on
your chiller theater back in the day because it was
inexpensive for them to show it anyway. I know your problem.
You just saw a carnival of souls. How would you
describe it? Was unsanitary but delicious. That's how you kind
(44:40):
of seed occult film, as you just show it all
the time everywhere I gather. In an American context, it
was shown quite regularly late at night in the wee
hours of the morning, and so it was probably caught
by a lot of people who didn't quite know what
they were watching everywhere. I'm not going to let me go.
I think that he did get to see the resurgence
(45:02):
of the film as a cult status, which is great.
It wasn't just he did it and then it languished
and died. People were actively still seeing it. And we're
beginning to make phone calls about her. Her attorney, you
were in that film. When this was first shown, it
was shown primarily in drive and it was part of
a double bill with The Devil's Messenger. And now in
(45:25):
it's rerelease, it's being shown in the art houses where
just where we would like to head up the first
time around, And as far as we're concerned, that's great.
Makes all the difference. It became an underground swell. It
started being picked up from colleges and it started to
grow and to grow and to grow. And then her said,
(45:46):
U teacher said, I was just in Sweden, and she said,
I'm bringing you your reviews for Carnivals Souls in Sweden,
And then he learned it was in Germany, it was
in England. It went to Italy. He got invited to
the Munique Film Festival. When he got to the theater,
(46:06):
it was sold out, and he said afterwards that kept
him on the stage till two o'clock in the morning,
asking him questions. It's nice too, though, isn't it when
the underdogs finally start to get a bit of recognition.
I think there's a nice kind of afterlife for this
film that that will probably only continue to get stronger,
which is very well deserved. The name Carnival's Souls was
(46:32):
licensed from writer John Clifford for a film that appeared
to have nothing to do with the original. They took
the name of the film and they made a flasher
film out of it. West Graven Presents Show Time Carnival
(46:54):
of Souls. It never got so to a theater. It
went just to DVDs and no one ever really saw it.
Partly it was alludic. Candice Hiligoths had also been developing
her own sequel. I spent two years building interest in it,
(47:16):
and we had an option, and then our option ended
and we went back to resign it with her Carvey again,
and her Carvey was dying of cancer. Her Carvey passed
away in Despite the fact, the only helmed one feature film.
(47:37):
The legacy of his cinematic style has lived on all
kinds of productions have been accused of taking influence from
Carnival Souls. When Carnival sort of got lost in the beginning,
it became a hit when it was revived twenty years later,
and then everyone said Carnival started it all. Carnival of Souls. Really,
(47:59):
Haspile owned a long tradition of American late twentieth century
horror films. Our movie was copied many times. In fact,
the most famous one was Michael Jackson's thriller who was
inspired from the ghouls that were dancing in the Salt
Air pavilion. I'm not like other guys, of course, not
(48:23):
that's why I love you. No, I mean I'm different.
Given David Lynch, I'd be surprised if he hadn't seen it,
given an obviously a cinephile, and would know. I think
his antecedents well. But in my hot even people thought
(48:44):
blue Velvet and carry a girl who lives in that
creepy house with a crazy mother had some elements of
Carnival in it. Then, of course Beetle Juice copied us beetlejuice,
it's your dad. Now I have a living dead. In
(49:05):
the beginning, George ra Merrow talked about how he had
been Carnival and I had inspired him. What's happening? What Happening?
Night of the Living Dead was also maybe a little
bit overlooked at the time, but did quite rapidly gain
a culture reputation and then a mainstream reputation because George
(49:27):
ra Merrow obviously went on to even bigger and better things.
Don't worry about him, and I can handle him. Probably
be a lot more of them as soon as they
find out about us, whereas that didn't quite happen unfortunately
for her. Carvey Carnival two is an early example of
a now popular movie trip the twist ending in which
(49:48):
the perspective character was dead all along, living out a
ghost walk upon the earth. Carnival of Souls really has
spawned a long tradition of American little fenty a century
horror films about people who have died in car accidents
but don't actually know it till the end of the film.
So that's where I kind of came across it. Sorry
(50:08):
to take stop. It was God to tell me what
to do you obviously have the precedent of classic nineteenth
century American literature with Ambrose Spears an occurrence Atdile Creek Bridge,
which is maybe the pioneering literary text of that type
(50:36):
promise of that really quick in Civil War, somebody's been
hung for either being a trader, was a prisoner, or
something like. That's being hung like on this bridge, and
it seems like the protagonist has escaped death by hanging.
The rope breaks as he's been hung, and he lands
in the river and basically swims away. He's being shot
(50:59):
at all that stuff, but eventually escaped. He goes through
all these adventures and makes his way back to his girlfriend.
His sweetheart, who is on a plantation, is running to her,
and he runs to embrace her and kiss her, and
then spoiler alert, he's hume the whole story is actually
(51:20):
hallucination he's had in the moments before death, and so
what it is is it's everything that happened as he
was descending being hung. So it's like his life suddenly
fleshed out this whole thing and then he died. Hornible
Souls has that same type of feel to occurrence at
(51:41):
out Creek Bridge the commonality of their dead and their
brain is kind of going down this crazy you know,
it's like a dream. It felt like I was in
there for days and it was only like thirty seconds.
Is she going to hell? Or is she being escorted
to death? It kind of plays with a lot of things.
It doesn't spell anything else, which I think is kind
(52:02):
of great. And there is that payoff that educational film has,
which is, you know, pulling a dead body out of
a car. So don't dry and race because you'll be
haunted in the beer seconds before you die. For a
guy who devoted his professional life to the education of
(52:24):
others through the art and grammar of filmmaking and gave
us so many gems that may have needed the passage
of time to fully appreciate her, Carvey seems to have
remained pretty humble about his one crossover success. Well, all
I've said about Carnival Soulvis and it's a heck of
a note when a film that has failed financially is
(52:48):
your total breadth of success in the future film market.
(53:24):
This episode of a Femily was written and produced by
Max Williams, Trevor Young, and Dallas Williams. With special thanks
to Brett Wood, Anti Terry and Tiffany Defote from Cult
Radio Lagoga for allowing us to excerpt their interview with
Candice Hillip on crag Law. Hear the full broadcast and
(53:44):
much more at c r A g G Radio dot com.
Bernice Murphy is the author of the book The Highway
Horror Film and the upcoming The California goth And Fiction Film.
Follow her on Twitter that Murph Gotha and Skip. Elzheimer
is the eyes and ears behind the Avy Geeks ephemeral
(54:06):
film mark watch her Carvey Centron shorts and other sixteen
million in the Masterpieces over at a vy geeks dot com,
links in videos on our website ephemeral dot com. Wh
Ephemeral News
Host
Alex Williams
Show Links
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