December 4, 2024 • 45 mins
How many borders do you have to cross to get to Zaqistan? Ryan talks with Mike and his dad, Yosef, about their complicated Palestianian/Lebanese/American identity. And we find out how Mike and Zaq - who is half Jewish - have navigated running a country together as the war in the Middle East rages on. And south of Zaqistan’s border, an Iranian American plants their own flag. Plus, Ivo Zdarsky flies over the border of the Iron Curtain in the cover of night on a homemade aircraft.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Yeah, so it's it's uh uh, I believe that we
go straight or do we take it right? Stand by? Uh?
I mean this is the fourth but one of those
(00:26):
critical this does seem important. Yeah, we're still wandering around
the desert. Definitely trespassing now, but trespassing as a concept
doesn't really seem to apply out here. There's what's on paper,
and then there's the land itself. There was a left
(00:46):
turn to go down.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
The paths, yeah, or the the one that we marked right?
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Yeah, I think I.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Think scuse The email says we gotta take second left turn?
Speaker 4 (01:01):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (01:01):
O does that do any any if you read the email?
Speaker 1 (01:09):
I did beat Zack's email I haven't printed out. But
still out here, it's hard to tell the difference between
a dirt road and just dirt.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Where are you going?
Speaker 5 (01:19):
Boys? Okay?
Speaker 1 (01:24):
I the turn is hair.
Speaker 6 (01:32):
That way.
Speaker 7 (01:36):
Here tobout the thing? Tell me what's going on?
Speaker 1 (01:41):
The sun almost meets the horizon. We still can't seem
to find the road that Zack built.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Let me know, as we go down before getting closer,
we're farther away.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
So the parking spot. So we're at forty six nors.
Zach's driving. I'm looking at a GPS, the same one
Zach used to find this place the first time, but
I can't figure out how it works. I'm also trying
to like record a podcast, and Mike on the walkie
(02:15):
talkie is annoyed with all of.
Speaker 8 (02:17):
Us anything on this side.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Hearing this. Yeah I'm hearing you, okay, So like it's
really helpful with at least response because I don't know.
Guys are all the way. Ryan is checking our numbers
and seeing if they're getting closer to lining up, so standby.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
We're going to backtrack it. Damn dude, this is complicated.
Speaker 5 (02:55):
Yeah, my bad.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
I was just starting to think maybe we should set
up camp, but then.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Yeah, vis Zakithan. I literally can see it from here.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
I'm Ryan Burdock and this is escape from Zakistan.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
It is my country. I mean to be honest, it
kind of sucks for the development of this new country.
Speaker 9 (03:25):
You will be definitely in need of some good manpower
and educated people.
Speaker 5 (03:30):
Are we have one ply type of toilet paper.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
No you gotta go, No, what do you insane?
Speaker 3 (03:35):
One ply is fine if we bring the badack we
had already run out of water. My legs kind of
get wobbly, and I like, just.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Quke do you remember the first time you saw Zakistan? Yeah,
that pie.
Speaker 10 (03:47):
In the event that you get stuck somewhere like Zakistan,
you're not anywhere near anything, but you'd have to walk
about a mile a mile and a half to get
up onto a peak to be able to get cell
phone service to call somebody.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
How are we doing on time?
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Not good? Not good?
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Episode four border Lands. There it is there, it is,
there's Zakistan. It's fully dark up. But we finally made
it to the Promised Land. Not unlike the Mormons, but
(04:31):
unlike the Mormons. We stopped at the liquor store in
the way. Our headlights illuminate the sign Welcome to the
Republic of Zakistan.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Up the car.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
We've made it.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
We made it.
Speaker 5 (04:44):
Look at that and did it.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Micabu armin As sling heads into the booth right away.
No one's allowed entry without going through customs.
Speaker 5 (04:53):
We are open. We're open for business. We will shut
down soon, so if anybody is trying to get in,
we would appreciate you coming up sooner than later.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
The door to the booth that's falling off the gate
tilts awkwardly towards the ground, but Mike squeezes himself in there,
grabs a pen and stamp from a briefcase. He's got
a job.
Speaker 5 (05:17):
To do and we have here, Ben, how do you?
How do you pronounce your lesson?
Speaker 11 (05:23):
Scar?
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Okay, Mike fumbles through the process with his one good arm.
Speaker 5 (05:29):
Yeah, Zach has to check in as well, Zach, if
you would have mind we.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
All line up to get in, even though we're tired
from the journey and still have to set up camp
for the night. It would be pretty easy to sneak
in just around the other side of the thought about
doing that would eventually it's my turn?
Speaker 5 (05:51):
Who's next?
Speaker 1 (05:53):
I lost my visa?
Speaker 5 (05:54):
You lost your visa? We have one. Here is your name, Sir.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Bryan Murdoch.
Speaker 5 (06:05):
Would you mind filling this out for him?
Speaker 11 (06:07):
Quis?
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Can I get a work visa? Do you have work visas?
Speaker 5 (06:10):
We? Uh do not have ones that are specifically work visas.
Speaker 12 (06:15):
This visa will allow you to work in zach Stan,
which we highly encourage.
Speaker 5 (06:19):
Actually, uh, you planning us saying as well? Tell us
sunday or.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Until we run out of water, so maybe tomorrow.
Speaker 5 (06:30):
Let's see what here's an entrance, Sam we'll need you
to come through customs before you leave as well. In
the meantime, Welcome to Zach.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Thank you, happy to be here.
Speaker 9 (06:50):
Go check it out. First name.
Speaker 7 (06:54):
Okay, so you finally made it, y'all?
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Did it?
Speaker 7 (06:57):
Ryan? This is a big moment.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Yeah, congrats.
Speaker 6 (07:01):
I did kind of doubt for a minute that you'd
ever get out there and we'd spend another episode wandering
around the desert.
Speaker 7 (07:06):
Yeah, be honestly same, But right before you headed out
to Zakistan, you'd peep the pictures you've read articles. Talk
to Zach a bunch. How did it finally feel to
see the Promised Land with your own two eyes? Did
it match your expectations?
Speaker 1 (07:19):
I mean, it's nighttime, so you can't see much, but
it was a big relief. I mean, I don't know.
I guess it wouldn't be that different than just camping
along the side of the road. It's not like there's
electricity in Zakistan or anything. But seeing the shiny monument
out there, illuminated by headlights, it felt monumental. It really
did seem improbable that this entire thing was built way
(07:43):
out here.
Speaker 10 (07:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (07:44):
Also, I feel like it's fun that you're still doing
the coseplay side of it. You know, it's like a
mini microcon moment with stamping the passports, and it seems
that Mike's taking his role pretty seriously, especially since y'all
were in a car all day and maybe a little
cranky and tired.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Yeah, Mike really wanted to do the passport control thing
and made everyone do it before entering zach Stan, including Zach.
But it's kind of the one cosplay element that Zach
and everybody seems to relish this ritual of going through customs,
and Mike really came to life in the booth.
Speaker 7 (08:18):
I like this Mike, I mean, he seems like the
really interesting cat and listening to all this, I gotta
remind folks, Mike's arm is broken. He has this arm
in a sling, and he's still down to go on
this trip into literally the middle of nowhere. Like, Mike,
my man, what are you thinking? But then you know,
as you tell it, he's taking this all super seriously.
But yet also he still seems kind of like disorganized
(08:40):
and like out of it. But Ryan, I gotta ask,
why do you think Mike does this? Like, why is
he so committed to Zakistan? It's not his baby.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Yeah, I was just curious about that. So actually I
talked to Mike and his dad before we left Salt
Lake City.
Speaker 8 (08:55):
Okay, my name is Joseph Abuza La. I'm retired right now.
Spent all my life as a mechanical engineer, graduated with
a master's degree in economics. I'm married with three kids,
and I want to introduce Mike. Who's Mike my son,
(09:17):
my oldest son. It's my oldest Mike.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Josef Zach and I stat on stools in Mike's kitchen,
which was chaos from packing for the trip. But maybe
it's just always that way. I couldn't find a clean
glass to drink from. Mike's wearing a tank tap, his
hair wild and unwashed. Mike's dad arrived in a neatly
ironed shirt and sleek glasses. They appear total opposites, and
(09:42):
sometimes appearances are what they seem. I asked you Sef
what he thought about Zaki Stan and why Mike puts
all his energy into it.
Speaker 8 (09:51):
You know my background as a mechanical engineer, I'm economists.
I'm more into the cost benefit. What are you doing?
How much money you are spending? There. What benefits are
you getting out of it other than your maybe resume
put something on the resume or something.
Speaker 13 (10:07):
We debate about why I put so much effort into
doing this, when what do I get out of it?
Speaker 8 (10:13):
Yes?
Speaker 13 (10:13):
Right, because like my name is not on it, it
is Michael Willis. Yeah, yeah, I'm not getting paid.
Speaker 5 (10:20):
You know.
Speaker 8 (10:21):
That was a discussion just like a week or two ago. Actually,
at the end of the discussion in my mind is
that Zach is getting all the credit. And Zach is
the one who's in charge or the project manager if
you want to think about it, and everybody else is
just working to support the art project.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
There's a good question, though, what was Mike getting out
of it? The more I learned about Yosef's life and
Mike's extended family, it slowly started to click. And it
all begins with Yosef's upbringing.
Speaker 8 (10:54):
I was born in Lebanon and raised until I was
seventeen in a north in part of Lebanon TRIPLEI. My
mom was Syrian from Damascus. My dad was a Palestinian
refugee from Jaffa. Here we are a Muslim family living
(11:15):
in a Christian neighborhood. When I was young. We went
to school from elementary school up. The plan was always
that you are going to be finishing school and leaving
the country.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
This was the early seventies, right before Lebanon erupted into
civil war. Yosef did well in school, so we got
a student visa to study in Australia. From there he
came to the US to study economics in Utah. Part
of all this my Yosef eventually came to the US
is that as a Muslim born in Lebanon, he didn't
really consider himself Lebanese and neither did the government.
Speaker 13 (11:55):
You know that all of us were born in America
and we all like birthright citizenship, just but being born
you were born in Lebanon, why do you not have
Lebanon citizenship.
Speaker 8 (12:10):
Lebanon is in a different country. Lebanon used to be
part of Syria in some ways, and when the Second
War started then France took over the country and I
think they gained their independence in nineteen forty three or
forty five or something like that. The country is balanced,
(12:36):
you know, between Christians and Muslims.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
This is not just a description of the demographics of Lebanon.
This is the legal foundation of the country. The new
constitution said explicitly the power would be shared equally between
the Christians and the Muslims, and it also codified Palestinians,
no matter where they were born, as second class citizens.
Speaker 8 (13:00):
Lebanon will create a passport for the Palestinians living in Lebanon.
And so you live there, and you are there as
a refuge with a passport. You see what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Are you given the same rights or are there give
limited rights?
Speaker 8 (13:17):
No, you do not. In Lebanon. There is seventy two
jobs that a Palestinian cannot work, exactly seventeen seventy two
and they haven't I guess listed, and so all of
these this is why they have to almost leave Lebanon
to go someplace else and find jobs. It's a little
(13:41):
bit more complex, as I said, and I have to
add one more thing. I knew that when I finish
high school, when I go to college, it will be
someplace and it will not be in Lebanon.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
This law was changed in the late odds, but people
still left Lebanon in record numbers throughout the last decade.
It's estimated that compared to the four point six million
people living within Lebanon's borders more than twice that number
of people born in Lebanon now live in other countries.
You said that it's a little more complex, but it
also just strikes me as kind of unfair. Does it
(14:17):
feel unfair to you? I would think it would lead
to resentment.
Speaker 8 (14:21):
I mean, there's no question when you have this society altogether,
it's like I don't want to say boiling, but there
is no really understanding. Well, this is why you end
up with civil wars. I mean, they don't have civil
wars because everybody loves everybody else.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
There's no like glue that holds it together.
Speaker 8 (14:40):
I don't think as a country there's is such thing
as Lebanon.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Really, it's almost as if Lebanon was simply a patch
of land with some arbitrary boundaries, as if some people
with a map in a far away place just drew
it on and said here, this is a country. Now
this is your country, which is exactly what happened. Those
people were British and French diplomats, two men named Sikes
(15:07):
and Pico. During World War One, as the Ottoman Empire
was coming undone, Sykes and Pico divvied up huge swaths
of land into regions that the British and French wanted
to control when the war ended. This has not worked
very well. As you just said. Lebanon erupted in Civil
war in the mid seventies and has been besieged by
sectarian violence ever since. And this national identity being Lebanese,
(15:32):
it didn't stick for many people. Mike asked how his
dad thinks about this Lebanese identity.
Speaker 8 (15:40):
You didn't grow up the Pelsa. You're not Sirius.
Speaker 13 (15:43):
You know, a group of Lebanon and you were not Lebanese.
Speaker 14 (15:46):
You know, like, what is your identity as far as
when you think about yourself from like an unnationalistic perspective,
you know, like from all those backgrounds, where were all
these things and none of them?
Speaker 8 (15:58):
Like, how do you what do you think? You know?
I don't know. That was maybe a difficult question. I
was not really at any time in my life a
Lebanese or a true Palestinian, or true Syrian or any
of these citizenships other than the US. I mean, maybe
it's weird to say that that I don't feel like
I have another country, you know that I can say
(16:23):
that that's mine.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
A few years after Yosef married Mike's mom, he became
an American citizen. It was a proud moment.
Speaker 8 (16:34):
When you have the citizenship. At least for me, it
was the first country that I can stand for a
flag and say this is my flag.
Speaker 6 (16:50):
Welcome back from the ad break. So this episode, we've
been dealing with some pretty heavy issues. How's everyone feeling?
Speaker 7 (16:58):
Gotta say, it's interesting to hear what Mike's dad is saying,
how the US is the only country he can call
his own. Meanwhile, this same country he calls his own
just re elected Donald Trump, and obviously that dude's super
dangerous for immigrants. He's steadfast against immigration, and last time
he banned Muslims. But here we have this Lebanese Palestinian
immigrant who deeply believes the US is also his country,
(17:22):
as Joseph put it, the only country I can call
my country. This is where the rhetoric meets reality, where
the rubber meets the road, because it feels like to me,
Mike and his dad are good Americans, ain't hurt nobody
out here, making the country better.
Speaker 6 (17:36):
Yeah, and it always feels hypocritical when politicians in America
are anti immigration. Ah, because we are known as a
nation of immigrants, the Melting Pot, etc. Like Zakistan seems
to be following those principles way more than the United
States at this point.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
I think Zach kind of wants Zakistan to embody the
melting Pot idea. It's maybe pie in the sky, but
as he said, what if there was an identity that
was open to everyone who didn't like their own national identity.
Certainly there's a lot of people now who are looking
for a new national identity.
Speaker 6 (18:09):
And I have one more question before we get back
to Zakistan. This episode is coming out right after the
November twenty twenty four election, and Ryan, you talked to
Mike and his dad over a year ago, not just
before the election, but also before Hamas attacked Israel, Like,
how has Mike been coping with that?
Speaker 1 (18:28):
I talked with Mike and his dad only a few
weeks before the Hamas attack. Since then, it's been difficult
and confusing for them and the whole family. More recently,
I talked to Mike along with Zach, and I wanted
to know specifically how Mike was grappling with all this
renewed attention on the plight of the Palestinian people.
Speaker 12 (18:47):
I have family from Pelsn everywhere except in Pelson, and
it's because it's so scattered. To be Pelian at this
point is just too It's it's just a concept. I'm
(19:07):
not from Palestine, but I'm Palestinian. Sometimes I get referenced
as a Palestinian friend or this or that. And I'm
from Ross Parks, Salt Lake City, Utah. And so I'm
not even quite sure what it means to be Palestinian.
(19:29):
I don't quite understand how a nation that I'm completely
removed from is supposed to define me. So am I Palestinian?
Speaker 13 (19:41):
I have no idea.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
So is Mike Zakistani. Then Zach Wade in.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
There's a very serious kernel of Zakistan that is about belonging.
Speaker 12 (19:54):
Same reason why I really looked at Zakistan. I was like, oh,
I'm into this. It was because it's like not serious,
it's fun, it's an art project and at the same
time it's deadly serious and I really like that dynamic
of it. And yeah, exactly, he probably didn't even know what.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
He was doing. But I do think this belonging idea
is interesting, and whether that's belonging to an identity cultural
identity or an actual belonging, like I have a passport,
which I don't have yet, by the way, but somebody's
(20:36):
working on it. Right, two hundred bucks, I'll get you
two hundred bucks.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Mans's it is that would help things along? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Hold up, I've been waiting dutifully for whatever the hell
the passport process is to pan out, and all it
takes to get one is to grease the wheels with
some cash. I guess it's not that surprising, but actually
being Zakistani passport or not, that seems to be more
of a feeling. We talked about how Zach's never quite
(21:09):
felt like he belonged anywhere. He's half Chinese, half Jewish
ad Mike who's half Palestinian, half Mormon, and it's easy
to see the appeal of the Zakistani identity.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
My mom, after she retired, got kind of real into
family history and genealogy and whatnot. Went back to the
family village in China, and she had this experience where
everybody speaks, you know, her dialect, and the food that
they eat is like what my great grandmother used to make, right,
and so everybody looks like her.
Speaker 10 (21:42):
Right.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
So that's a place that she had never been to
and just kind of heard about. But once she was there,
it made sense right for me, And like some of
my cousins like we only we could only have like
half that experience, right, Because I mean, I feel like
I've traveled to some pretty odd ends of the earth,
and like there is no home village for me. There's
(22:04):
no place where people look like me, you know, where
people speak my dialect except for maybe southern California. You know,
this idea of multi cultural United States, right, this more inclusive,
more equitable, more representative thing. It's not just the kind
of aspirational box checking thing. It's for me, like, if
(22:27):
this doesn't work, right, if America is not actually like that,
I have no place to go.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Having no place to go, it's tempting to want to
create that kind of place. It's happened throughout history, let's
be honest. That's kind of how the state of Israel
was conceived. And although Zach is Jewish, he said he
doesn't think about Zakistan in terms of Israel, but still
the parallels are there, or maybe more accurately, they take
(22:56):
the same idea and go in opposite directions.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
I think the whole Israel Sienist project was flawed from
the start. You can't really sell that to the rest
of the world, the kind of exclusionary state, even if
you were like, all right, how do we keep you
safe around the world. I think what they're doing right
now is having the opposite effect.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
I wondered how Miken Zach's relationship has changed since the
war broke out. Despite the fact that they run their
own country and the fact that the Israeli Palestinian conflict
is extremely frat they don't talk politics so much. They
mostly talk as friends.
Speaker 12 (23:35):
On one level that I've never I identified with anybody
else is with this art project and with Zach, and
so like with Zach and like you like don't have
this on like you know, you cut this shit, but
like this is just straight up so I can talk
to him completely honestly and he gets what I'm saying,
(24:00):
and uh yeah, we just talk like straight up, almost
entrusting each other, and then we just come through and
it's like totally fun. Zach is an incredibly special friend.
For sure. I value him just as much as I
value anything in the world. And I mean that, so yeah, anyway,
(24:25):
never mind.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
The thing that's unique to me about Zakistan is that
it's not a political project. It is no formal ideology,
not unified by some belief in a specific political system.
That's different from Americas or Israel's or Lebanons. If it
has an ideology at all, it's that Zakistan can be
whatever you want it to be if you can just
(24:50):
figure out how to get there.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
Yeah, the just concept where there is a place that
maybe nobody can get to, but that where people included,
where you know, the that sense of belonging is open.
You know, that's a powerful concept.
Speaker 8 (25:05):
You know.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Sure, there's something kind of awesome about the fact that
the two of you do this project together. You know,
it's not like Kumbaya kind of shit or whatever, but
it's like a Jewish person, a Palestinian person making a
country in the desert. Like there's definitely something kind of
(25:30):
magical about that. Do you see it that way?
Speaker 3 (25:34):
I would say, I mean, yeah, although I wouldn't quite
reduce it like that, And I know Mikeabou would like
bristle at, I mean, what we're building yet there are
real aspects of it, But yeah, there's a lot of
other aspects. Mike's don't a relationship to the United States, right,
and to who belongs here who doesn't. I think we
(26:00):
share that right.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
For Mike's part, Zakistan is a bomb, a relief from
the complications of politics, both international and domestic.
Speaker 12 (26:09):
I think that might be what I've gravitated towards, is
the fact that this Zakistan itself sums up and rather
explains so much frustration that I have in the world.
It's just kind of like, yo, man, can't we all
just get along? It's true? It's true though, yeah, right.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
I was born in Iran. He moved after the revolution,
moved to Germany for about a year, hated it over there,
and then moved to California. And so I really grew
up in southern California.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
This is Ari Faraji, who was like Zach in his twenties.
When he saw a dio he couldn't pass.
Speaker 4 (26:54):
Up, being essentially first generation immigrant.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
I was ten he moved to the States.
Speaker 4 (27:01):
You know, my parents didn't teach me about stocks or
real state or investments or.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Anything like that.
Speaker 4 (27:07):
But you know, growing up, I just kept hearing about, hey,
land values always go up, always go up. And this
is when eBay was really taking off, and people were
buying property and trading and dealing on eBay, and I
just happened to be fiddling around on there found a
half acre block of land out in the middle of Utah,
(27:27):
which I had no idea where it was.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
It was for three hundred bucks. I'm like, all right,
you know, three hundred bucks, I can afford that.
Speaker 4 (27:33):
Let me just put some money down on it, and
you know, see what happens years past.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Ari never went out to the desert to see his land,
didn't think about it much until I tracked him down
through the county property records and cold called him.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
You know, for me, it was a three hundred bucks.
Speaker 4 (27:49):
I think it's assessed that like seven hundred bucks or
so right now, and my taxes are i don't know,
like a dollar or twelve cents or whatever it is
on the property. So nothing really ventured and nothing really
much gain.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
But at least I haven't really lost.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Anything, gotcha, gotcha? Yeah, So owning a little piece of
the American dream is kind of like a yeah, it
feels like a thing to do.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Yeah, you got it.
Speaker 4 (28:12):
Yeah. That was actually the first piece of real estate
that we owned, so my wife and I were actually quite.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Proud of that and so future plans to keep doing
the same or I haven't thought about it till I called.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
You mean about the property?
Speaker 4 (28:30):
Yeah, Like, am I planning on developing my own sovereign
nation on that half acre block and declaring my own country?
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Is that what you're thinking?
Speaker 1 (28:40):
Yeah, I'm wondering about that. Any plans to do that?
Speaker 4 (28:44):
No, I think I'm just gonna let it sit and
let it roll and you know, probably pass it down
to my kids and their kids, and who knows, maybe
down the line something will happen and it might be
worth something. It might be worth a thousand dollars one
hundred years down the line.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
You never know, climate change might you know, could be
underwater or something. Who knows. Right, Well, it's funny that
you brought up that sovereign nation idea. I don't know
if you were digging around, But are you aware of
some of the properties that border your property?
Speaker 2 (29:21):
I am not.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
No, Well, there actually is a property south of you,
and the guy who bought it his name is Zach
and he declared its sovereign and called it Zakistan.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
So that's hilarious, kist.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Yeah, So it's so actually now you're you know, now
your property is on an international border.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
That is it? So his property actually borders mine?
Speaker 1 (29:51):
It does? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Does he live on the property.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
He does not, No, he lives. He lives in Brooklyn.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Okay, all right, that's fanta plastic.
Speaker 4 (30:00):
You know what, I think I might create Aristan and
maybe even declare war on Zakistan.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
There you go. You'll have to invade and take down
his uh his robots.
Speaker 4 (30:15):
Or maybe I can just sell part of Aristan to
Zakistan and let them.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Annex are A Stan into Zakistan.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Ari's first reaction is to think of war annexation. It's
an understandable impulse. It's what nation states are good at doing.
Seems to be the raison data. It occurred to me
that now here we have in the middle of the
Utah Desert a scene of uncanny international relations, Zach a
Chinese American Jew, and Mike, a culturally Palestinian, politically Lebanese,
(30:49):
also Mormon American running an independent nation that now shares
a hostile border with a second newly conceived nation run
by an Iranian American. It was starting to feel like
maybe I wasn't so much in the middle of nowhere
as I was actually in the center of everything.
Speaker 8 (31:08):
M m.
Speaker 11 (31:20):
Well, I was trying to figure out. Uh, I've been
working on a project looking at land out in the
Utah Desert and it looks like you maybe own like
a tiny piece of land out there. I owned a
own a few pieces, Yes you do. Okay? Is that
(31:44):
something that was bought on eBay by any chance?
Speaker 9 (31:48):
Yeah?
Speaker 8 (31:50):
It was?
Speaker 11 (31:50):
Okay, maybe back in like, uh.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
Yeah, this is von Hanson. She lives in Florida.
Speaker 11 (32:00):
How did you like come across that? Was that? Just
like you found the listing and thought cool, I'll buy
some land.
Speaker 9 (32:10):
I don't recall it's been a really long time.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
So how does this relate to your podcast?
Speaker 11 (32:20):
Well, I am somebody who his name is Zach Landsberg.
He bought a couple acres of that land on eBay
and actually declared declared it to be an independent country.
Oh that sounds funny, but okay, yeah, so I believe
(32:43):
I believe your property is actually now has like an
international border on it. Okay, So you're saying one of
the persons that's bordered with my lad is.
Speaker 9 (33:00):
Did he get that?
Speaker 4 (33:01):
Like?
Speaker 7 (33:02):
How did he declare that his own country?
Speaker 11 (33:04):
That doesn't even make sense to me.
Speaker 6 (33:10):
This is so funny to me because I think this
is exactly how most people react when we tell them
about micro nations. At first they're like, wait, what you
can do that? You can just declare a nation? And
then we have to be like, I mean, yeah, technically
you can, but also not really, it's not legit.
Speaker 7 (33:28):
Well, there is that whole monts of Fideo convention thing
y'all told me about. Right, so there you have the
declarative statehood theory. But with that in mind, right, if
you go back to the Boston Tea Party, the founding fathers,
this dude's in like the powdered wigs and the establishment
of this country, and if you were asked, hey, was
that legitimate? Who's to say?
Speaker 5 (33:47):
Right?
Speaker 7 (33:47):
The British certainly wouldn't say that was legit, but we
all think of the US as this real nation.
Speaker 5 (33:54):
Right.
Speaker 7 (33:54):
So that was then, this is now and these days
no one questions a sovereignty of Americas. Well obviously unless
you ask some tribal leaders they would have a different opinion.
Speaker 6 (34:02):
Right, So all it takes to start a country is
a gruesome war and then two hundred and fifty years
of oppression, Easy peasy, exactly.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
Zach's theory of sovereignty is what you really need to
become a country isn't declaring anything or land and citizenry.
It's really guns and money, and you know, more guns
and money than the other guy.
Speaker 7 (34:26):
Yes, that tracks I mean from history. But look, look
we got guns, we got independence. The Canadians they still
kind of bend the knee and bout of the king, right.
Speaker 6 (34:34):
So that's an unnecessary dig at Canada's Aaron, they have healthcare. Okay,
might been the knee for some healthcare, I don't know,
but it's the same Ryan. I'm curious. Did Zach ever
actually declare sovereignty in some way?
Speaker 1 (34:48):
He did sort of back in two thousand and five.
He wrote out a declaration of secession, had a little
ceremonial signing in his apartment, and he thinks he's sent
it into the state department. He's not totally sure about that,
and then when I asked to see it, he couldn't
really find the document. So I don't know if that counts.
Speaker 7 (35:10):
It sounds like, following his own logic, he's gonna need
to go with the more guns approach.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Yeah, probably, I mean, his buddy Ivo Zadarsky lives out
at the airplane hangar in the desert. He's got plenty
of guns and they actually have a friend nicknamed machine
gun Mike. And back when we stopped by, Ivo showed
us a video of him and machine gun Mike, you know,
doing what you do out there.
Speaker 9 (35:33):
That's how I say, machine gun Mike, play court up
there we go. That's thirty round. Let's think circles, like
eighteen hundred rounds per minute.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
What's the what are you supposed to use that for?
Speaker 9 (35:52):
Just to have fun kind of fun.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
Ivo was from the former Czechoslovakia. He's been playing with guns,
building air planes and things since he was a teenager. Now,
as we know, sovereignty in Eastern Europe can be hard
to come by with Russia along your border. So back
in the eighties, Ivo took matters into his own hands
left his homeland, but he didn't exactly go through customs.
(36:16):
Would you be up for talking a little bit about
your backstory, which one I guess I was thinking before
you came to America. Ah, the Czech Czechoslovaka story.
Speaker 9 (36:29):
Yeah, well yeah, I will send Czechoslovaka. I didn't like
it that afil I escaped from.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
There that's a simplified version. Yeah. I knew about Ivo's
backstory before we met, read a few articles about him
in his complex and truly wild journey to America, a
journey that started years before the fall of the Berlin
Wall when Soviet tanks rolled through the streets of Prague.
What didn't you like about it?
Speaker 9 (36:57):
There were these Communists people there, and I didn't get
along with them.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
Is this place kind of the opposite of that?
Speaker 12 (37:08):
Almost?
Speaker 9 (37:09):
Yeah, that's as far as I could get away from them.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
I mean, you didn't just escape, But could you give
me like a quick version of kind of what you did?
Speaker 8 (37:21):
Oh?
Speaker 9 (37:21):
Yeah, I had to build a powered hang glider. It's
like a tricycle. Gear drive it on the ground and
then there's a hang lighter on the top. It's got
the engine in a bag.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Then it flies.
Speaker 9 (37:37):
So I just made it and at night I just
flew to Austria.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
I was being modest making it sound easy. First of all,
his glider was cobbled together over many months with bits
of things you could find in communist Czechoslovakia. Wheels from
a wheelbarrow, a small car engine, motorcycle parts, a red
launch hair style seat with a single seatbelt. So you've
built your own plane in a garage.
Speaker 9 (38:04):
No, in a small room in an apartment on the
fourth floor.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
Because you had to do all that in secret. Yeah,
I tell them kind of. Yeah. Well, Ivo was testing
his plane one day. He got stopped by the police.
They confiscated the plane. He eventually brabbed his way to
getting it back, put it in his apartment, and waited
for just the right time in the right weather conditions,
and then you carried it down the fourth floor.
Speaker 9 (38:34):
Yeah, I'm gonna yeah, you cut it down, you shove
it in the car, and you go somewhere, and so
you have some room to take off and you fly.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
All in the cover of night. And this is communist
Czechoslovakia in nineteen eighty four. So if you got caught
taking off.
Speaker 9 (39:01):
Well, providing you are still alive and they're not shooting
at you. Some guy made the Jarro capture and tried
to escape, but somehow he got lost in a fog
or clouds or whatever, and he kind of landed back
in Czechoslovakia in some military area. So he was in
(39:22):
jail and his machine was in a police museum.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
So I wanted to do it better.
Speaker 9 (39:27):
So I'm not in jail, and my machine is not
in a police museum, is in a book museum in
West Berlin.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
The checkpoint checkpoint. Yeah you know, yeah yeah. Ivo's flying
machine is on display at Checkpoint Charlie, the iconic Cold
War museum, located at the main gate between the former
East and West Berlin. I've actually seen the glider myself,
about twenty years ago. The whole thing isn't much bigger
(39:57):
than my ride on lawnmower. Zach knew about Ivo's backstory too,
but he never really got any details until this trip.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
Did you start flying?
Speaker 1 (40:08):
Like when it was like selling things with angliders?
Speaker 9 (40:13):
Was just throwing myself off the cliffs with it.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
I don't do this anymore. I got spoilt now.
Speaker 9 (40:21):
I like aircraft whig as a door and here and
engineery doesn't quit.
Speaker 3 (40:30):
As a kid, were you like interested in flight, in
airplanes and stuff, I.
Speaker 9 (40:34):
Was making rockets with a black powder, you know, with
explosive floorheads and still things like that. So I guess
that's kind of flying through.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
So you just you were kind of self taught.
Speaker 3 (40:48):
Yeah, trial and error.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Learning to fly a plane by trial and error seems
like a bad idea.
Speaker 9 (40:55):
Well, I just I didn't have my choice. So but
it's long. If you don't kill yourself, it hurts sometimes,
got I mean you got bruises everywhere, you know, one scratches,
you know. I remember that well. But I guess it
(41:17):
was worth in all those few moments when you actually flew,
when you're no longer running and you're actually flying.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
So is that how it felt crossing over the Iron Curtain?
Speaker 11 (41:28):
Like?
Speaker 9 (41:29):
No, that was easy. It was a recreational flight. I
mean it was beautiful by everything worked.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
The border between Czechoslovakia and Austria was heavily fortified on
the ground, at least sniper towers, electric fences, land mines.
BiVO sailed right over all. That quieted the engine and
hope the radar didn't start pinging. How long was the flight?
Speaker 9 (41:53):
Well, I was in Austria like across the border like
ten to fifteen minutes, but then it probably took me
like almost an hour to get to Vienna. And then
it was still dark, so I had plenty of feels,
so I just made a sight sing to it of Vienna,
so probably like at least three hour flight, and then
(42:15):
I found the international airport to I just landed right there.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
What did they say when you landed first?
Speaker 9 (42:21):
There was a mechanics. They seemed to be kind of upset.
I think that the thought I don't belong to places
like that. So I just pulled out my expired check
passport and I told them, well, hey, I just escaped.
I would like to ask for a political asylum. And
then they changed their mind completely and they gave me
(42:44):
caffee and donuts, you know, and all that. They were
happy that they were showing my machine to everybody.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
I was ultimate goal was to make it to the US,
to find a country he could build a better life
in country that he had more space where he could
roam freely. He sold his flying machine to the museum
and used that money to buy a real plane ticket
across the Atlantic. Did you didn't stay long in Vienna?
Speaker 9 (43:12):
No, because I kind of passed off the check version
of KGB and they were after me. So so those
students were kind of hiding me. And then no more.
You have to wait till these like six months to
get to the US, and somehow the US let me in.
Then after like six weeks.
Speaker 1 (43:35):
I've awaited less time to get into the US than
i've waited for my Zakistani passport. Maybe before I leave
Zakstan I can claim asylum or something. I'll just tell
Mike I don't like the direction my country's going, so
can we make this happen kind of quickly. For his part,
after I've arrived in the US, he lived out of
a camper van he bought with the rest of his
(43:57):
museum money. He started tinkering with airplane forellar designs, selling
them to hobbyists. He grew it into a successful aviation
business in California, did the American dream thing for a while,
and then in two thousand and seven he heard about
a deal he couldn't pass up.
Speaker 7 (44:14):
You don't a at a border, A great please to
get away. This very rare to bind parcel comes with
beautiful vistas and is near.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Roads, having land yearning for nationhood. It motivates people to
leave their homeland and go somewhere new. But you get
there and then what how does this nation and belonging
thing actually work? Is it actually possible to build a
cultural safe haven in the middle of the desert? We
(44:48):
made it.
Speaker 5 (44:48):
Look at that you did it?
Speaker 10 (44:52):
Fucking I right?
Speaker 1 (44:53):
Oh, I've entered Zakistani territory.
Speaker 5 (45:00):
Oh my god, holy shit, what is that?
Speaker 8 (45:03):
Bulls bull holes in it?
Speaker 6 (45:10):
Escape from Zakistan is a production of iHeart Podcasts and
School of Humans. The show was written by Ryan Murdoch.
Sarah Burnett is our story editor and co host. Reporting,
hosting and editing by Gabby Watson Ryan Murdoch. Editing by
Emily Meronoff. Music and sound designed by Jesse Niswanger. Show
art by Lucy Keintonia. Executive producers are Jason English, Brandon Barr,
(45:30):
Elsie Crowley for Jenny Prescott and Ryan Murdoch. Thanks for listening.
Yeah, so it's it's uh uh, I believe that we
go straight or do we take it right? Stand by? Uh?
I mean this is the fourth but one of those
(00:26):
critical this does seem important. Yeah, we're still wandering around
the desert. Definitely trespassing now, but trespassing as a concept
doesn't really seem to apply out here. There's what's on paper,
and then there's the land itself. There was a left
(00:46):
turn to go down.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
The paths, yeah, or the the one that we marked right?
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Yeah, I think I.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Think scuse The email says we gotta take second left turn?
Speaker 4 (01:01):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (01:01):
O does that do any any if you read the email?
Speaker 1 (01:09):
I did beat Zack's email I haven't printed out. But
still out here, it's hard to tell the difference between
a dirt road and just dirt.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Where are you going?
Speaker 5 (01:19):
Boys? Okay?
Speaker 1 (01:24):
I the turn is hair.
Speaker 6 (01:32):
That way.
Speaker 7 (01:36):
Here tobout the thing? Tell me what's going on?
Speaker 1 (01:41):
The sun almost meets the horizon. We still can't seem
to find the road that Zack built.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Let me know, as we go down before getting closer,
we're farther away.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
So the parking spot. So we're at forty six nors.
Zach's driving. I'm looking at a GPS, the same one
Zach used to find this place the first time, but
I can't figure out how it works. I'm also trying
to like record a podcast, and Mike on the walkie
(02:15):
talkie is annoyed with all of.
Speaker 8 (02:17):
Us anything on this side.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Hearing this. Yeah I'm hearing you, okay, So like it's
really helpful with at least response because I don't know.
Guys are all the way. Ryan is checking our numbers
and seeing if they're getting closer to lining up, so standby.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
We're going to backtrack it. Damn dude, this is complicated.
Speaker 5 (02:55):
Yeah, my bad.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
I was just starting to think maybe we should set
up camp, but then.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Yeah, vis Zakithan. I literally can see it from here.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
I'm Ryan Burdock and this is escape from Zakistan.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
It is my country. I mean to be honest, it
kind of sucks for the development of this new country.
Speaker 9 (03:25):
You will be definitely in need of some good manpower
and educated people.
Speaker 5 (03:30):
Are we have one ply type of toilet paper.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
No you gotta go, No, what do you insane?
Speaker 3 (03:35):
One ply is fine if we bring the badack we
had already run out of water. My legs kind of
get wobbly, and I like, just.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Quke do you remember the first time you saw Zakistan? Yeah,
that pie.
Speaker 10 (03:47):
In the event that you get stuck somewhere like Zakistan,
you're not anywhere near anything, but you'd have to walk
about a mile a mile and a half to get
up onto a peak to be able to get cell
phone service to call somebody.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
How are we doing on time?
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Not good? Not good?
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Episode four border Lands. There it is there, it is,
there's Zakistan. It's fully dark up. But we finally made
it to the Promised Land. Not unlike the Mormons, but
(04:31):
unlike the Mormons. We stopped at the liquor store in
the way. Our headlights illuminate the sign Welcome to the
Republic of Zakistan.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Up the car.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
We've made it.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
We made it.
Speaker 5 (04:44):
Look at that and did it.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Micabu armin As sling heads into the booth right away.
No one's allowed entry without going through customs.
Speaker 5 (04:53):
We are open. We're open for business. We will shut
down soon, so if anybody is trying to get in,
we would appreciate you coming up sooner than later.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
The door to the booth that's falling off the gate
tilts awkwardly towards the ground, but Mike squeezes himself in there,
grabs a pen and stamp from a briefcase. He's got
a job.
Speaker 5 (05:17):
To do and we have here, Ben, how do you?
How do you pronounce your lesson?
Speaker 11 (05:23):
Scar?
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Okay, Mike fumbles through the process with his one good arm.
Speaker 5 (05:29):
Yeah, Zach has to check in as well, Zach, if
you would have mind we.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
All line up to get in, even though we're tired
from the journey and still have to set up camp
for the night. It would be pretty easy to sneak
in just around the other side of the thought about
doing that would eventually it's my turn?
Speaker 5 (05:51):
Who's next?
Speaker 1 (05:53):
I lost my visa?
Speaker 5 (05:54):
You lost your visa? We have one. Here is your name, Sir.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Bryan Murdoch.
Speaker 5 (06:05):
Would you mind filling this out for him?
Speaker 11 (06:07):
Quis?
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Can I get a work visa? Do you have work visas?
Speaker 5 (06:10):
We? Uh do not have ones that are specifically work visas.
Speaker 12 (06:15):
This visa will allow you to work in zach Stan,
which we highly encourage.
Speaker 5 (06:19):
Actually, uh, you planning us saying as well? Tell us
sunday or.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Until we run out of water, so maybe tomorrow.
Speaker 5 (06:30):
Let's see what here's an entrance, Sam we'll need you
to come through customs before you leave as well. In
the meantime, Welcome to Zach.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Thank you, happy to be here.
Speaker 9 (06:50):
Go check it out. First name.
Speaker 7 (06:54):
Okay, so you finally made it, y'all?
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Did it?
Speaker 7 (06:57):
Ryan? This is a big moment.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Yeah, congrats.
Speaker 6 (07:01):
I did kind of doubt for a minute that you'd
ever get out there and we'd spend another episode wandering
around the desert.
Speaker 7 (07:06):
Yeah, be honestly same, But right before you headed out
to Zakistan, you'd peep the pictures you've read articles. Talk
to Zach a bunch. How did it finally feel to
see the Promised Land with your own two eyes? Did
it match your expectations?
Speaker 1 (07:19):
I mean, it's nighttime, so you can't see much, but
it was a big relief. I mean, I don't know.
I guess it wouldn't be that different than just camping
along the side of the road. It's not like there's
electricity in Zakistan or anything. But seeing the shiny monument
out there, illuminated by headlights, it felt monumental. It really
did seem improbable that this entire thing was built way
(07:43):
out here.
Speaker 10 (07:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (07:44):
Also, I feel like it's fun that you're still doing
the coseplay side of it. You know, it's like a
mini microcon moment with stamping the passports, and it seems
that Mike's taking his role pretty seriously, especially since y'all
were in a car all day and maybe a little
cranky and tired.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Yeah, Mike really wanted to do the passport control thing
and made everyone do it before entering zach Stan, including Zach.
But it's kind of the one cosplay element that Zach
and everybody seems to relish this ritual of going through customs,
and Mike really came to life in the booth.
Speaker 7 (08:18):
I like this Mike, I mean, he seems like the
really interesting cat and listening to all this, I gotta
remind folks, Mike's arm is broken. He has this arm
in a sling, and he's still down to go on
this trip into literally the middle of nowhere. Like, Mike,
my man, what are you thinking? But then you know,
as you tell it, he's taking this all super seriously.
But yet also he still seems kind of like disorganized
(08:40):
and like out of it. But Ryan, I gotta ask,
why do you think Mike does this? Like, why is
he so committed to Zakistan? It's not his baby.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Yeah, I was just curious about that. So actually I
talked to Mike and his dad before we left Salt
Lake City.
Speaker 8 (08:55):
Okay, my name is Joseph Abuza La. I'm retired right now.
Spent all my life as a mechanical engineer, graduated with
a master's degree in economics. I'm married with three kids,
and I want to introduce Mike. Who's Mike my son,
(09:17):
my oldest son. It's my oldest Mike.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Josef Zach and I stat on stools in Mike's kitchen,
which was chaos from packing for the trip. But maybe
it's just always that way. I couldn't find a clean
glass to drink from. Mike's wearing a tank tap, his
hair wild and unwashed. Mike's dad arrived in a neatly
ironed shirt and sleek glasses. They appear total opposites, and
(09:42):
sometimes appearances are what they seem. I asked you Sef
what he thought about Zaki Stan and why Mike puts
all his energy into it.
Speaker 8 (09:51):
You know my background as a mechanical engineer, I'm economists.
I'm more into the cost benefit. What are you doing?
How much money you are spending? There. What benefits are
you getting out of it other than your maybe resume
put something on the resume or something.
Speaker 13 (10:07):
We debate about why I put so much effort into
doing this, when what do I get out of it?
Speaker 8 (10:13):
Yes?
Speaker 13 (10:13):
Right, because like my name is not on it, it
is Michael Willis. Yeah, yeah, I'm not getting paid.
Speaker 5 (10:20):
You know.
Speaker 8 (10:21):
That was a discussion just like a week or two ago. Actually,
at the end of the discussion in my mind is
that Zach is getting all the credit. And Zach is
the one who's in charge or the project manager if
you want to think about it, and everybody else is
just working to support the art project.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
There's a good question, though, what was Mike getting out
of it? The more I learned about Yosef's life and
Mike's extended family, it slowly started to click. And it
all begins with Yosef's upbringing.
Speaker 8 (10:54):
I was born in Lebanon and raised until I was
seventeen in a north in part of Lebanon TRIPLEI. My
mom was Syrian from Damascus. My dad was a Palestinian
refugee from Jaffa. Here we are a Muslim family living
(11:15):
in a Christian neighborhood. When I was young. We went
to school from elementary school up. The plan was always
that you are going to be finishing school and leaving
the country.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
This was the early seventies, right before Lebanon erupted into
civil war. Yosef did well in school, so we got
a student visa to study in Australia. From there he
came to the US to study economics in Utah. Part
of all this my Yosef eventually came to the US
is that as a Muslim born in Lebanon, he didn't
really consider himself Lebanese and neither did the government.
Speaker 13 (11:55):
You know that all of us were born in America
and we all like birthright citizenship, just but being born
you were born in Lebanon, why do you not have
Lebanon citizenship.
Speaker 8 (12:10):
Lebanon is in a different country. Lebanon used to be
part of Syria in some ways, and when the Second
War started then France took over the country and I
think they gained their independence in nineteen forty three or
forty five or something like that. The country is balanced,
(12:36):
you know, between Christians and Muslims.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
This is not just a description of the demographics of Lebanon.
This is the legal foundation of the country. The new
constitution said explicitly the power would be shared equally between
the Christians and the Muslims, and it also codified Palestinians,
no matter where they were born, as second class citizens.
Speaker 8 (13:00):
Lebanon will create a passport for the Palestinians living in Lebanon.
And so you live there, and you are there as
a refuge with a passport. You see what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Are you given the same rights or are there give
limited rights?
Speaker 8 (13:17):
No, you do not. In Lebanon. There is seventy two
jobs that a Palestinian cannot work, exactly seventeen seventy two
and they haven't I guess listed, and so all of
these this is why they have to almost leave Lebanon
to go someplace else and find jobs. It's a little
(13:41):
bit more complex, as I said, and I have to
add one more thing. I knew that when I finish
high school, when I go to college, it will be
someplace and it will not be in Lebanon.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
This law was changed in the late odds, but people
still left Lebanon in record numbers throughout the last decade.
It's estimated that compared to the four point six million
people living within Lebanon's borders more than twice that number
of people born in Lebanon now live in other countries.
You said that it's a little more complex, but it
also just strikes me as kind of unfair. Does it
(14:17):
feel unfair to you? I would think it would lead
to resentment.
Speaker 8 (14:21):
I mean, there's no question when you have this society altogether,
it's like I don't want to say boiling, but there
is no really understanding. Well, this is why you end
up with civil wars. I mean, they don't have civil
wars because everybody loves everybody else.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
There's no like glue that holds it together.
Speaker 8 (14:40):
I don't think as a country there's is such thing
as Lebanon.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Really, it's almost as if Lebanon was simply a patch
of land with some arbitrary boundaries, as if some people
with a map in a far away place just drew
it on and said here, this is a country. Now
this is your country, which is exactly what happened. Those
people were British and French diplomats, two men named Sikes
(15:07):
and Pico. During World War One, as the Ottoman Empire
was coming undone, Sykes and Pico divvied up huge swaths
of land into regions that the British and French wanted
to control when the war ended. This has not worked
very well. As you just said. Lebanon erupted in Civil
war in the mid seventies and has been besieged by
sectarian violence ever since. And this national identity being Lebanese,
(15:32):
it didn't stick for many people. Mike asked how his
dad thinks about this Lebanese identity.
Speaker 8 (15:40):
You didn't grow up the Pelsa. You're not Sirius.
Speaker 13 (15:43):
You know, a group of Lebanon and you were not Lebanese.
Speaker 14 (15:46):
You know, like, what is your identity as far as
when you think about yourself from like an unnationalistic perspective,
you know, like from all those backgrounds, where were all
these things and none of them?
Speaker 8 (15:58):
Like, how do you what do you think? You know?
I don't know. That was maybe a difficult question. I
was not really at any time in my life a
Lebanese or a true Palestinian, or true Syrian or any
of these citizenships other than the US. I mean, maybe
it's weird to say that that I don't feel like
I have another country, you know that I can say
(16:23):
that that's mine.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
A few years after Yosef married Mike's mom, he became
an American citizen. It was a proud moment.
Speaker 8 (16:34):
When you have the citizenship. At least for me, it
was the first country that I can stand for a
flag and say this is my flag.
Speaker 6 (16:50):
Welcome back from the ad break. So this episode, we've
been dealing with some pretty heavy issues. How's everyone feeling?
Speaker 7 (16:58):
Gotta say, it's interesting to hear what Mike's dad is saying,
how the US is the only country he can call
his own. Meanwhile, this same country he calls his own
just re elected Donald Trump, and obviously that dude's super
dangerous for immigrants. He's steadfast against immigration, and last time
he banned Muslims. But here we have this Lebanese Palestinian
immigrant who deeply believes the US is also his country,
(17:22):
as Joseph put it, the only country I can call
my country. This is where the rhetoric meets reality, where
the rubber meets the road, because it feels like to me,
Mike and his dad are good Americans, ain't hurt nobody
out here, making the country better.
Speaker 6 (17:36):
Yeah, and it always feels hypocritical when politicians in America
are anti immigration. Ah, because we are known as a
nation of immigrants, the Melting Pot, etc. Like Zakistan seems
to be following those principles way more than the United
States at this point.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
I think Zach kind of wants Zakistan to embody the
melting Pot idea. It's maybe pie in the sky, but
as he said, what if there was an identity that
was open to everyone who didn't like their own national identity.
Certainly there's a lot of people now who are looking
for a new national identity.
Speaker 6 (18:09):
And I have one more question before we get back
to Zakistan. This episode is coming out right after the
November twenty twenty four election, and Ryan, you talked to
Mike and his dad over a year ago, not just
before the election, but also before Hamas attacked Israel, Like,
how has Mike been coping with that?
Speaker 1 (18:28):
I talked with Mike and his dad only a few
weeks before the Hamas attack. Since then, it's been difficult
and confusing for them and the whole family. More recently,
I talked to Mike along with Zach, and I wanted
to know specifically how Mike was grappling with all this
renewed attention on the plight of the Palestinian people.
Speaker 12 (18:47):
I have family from Pelsn everywhere except in Pelson, and
it's because it's so scattered. To be Pelian at this
point is just too It's it's just a concept. I'm
(19:07):
not from Palestine, but I'm Palestinian. Sometimes I get referenced
as a Palestinian friend or this or that. And I'm
from Ross Parks, Salt Lake City, Utah. And so I'm
not even quite sure what it means to be Palestinian.
(19:29):
I don't quite understand how a nation that I'm completely
removed from is supposed to define me. So am I Palestinian?
Speaker 13 (19:41):
I have no idea.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
So is Mike Zakistani. Then Zach Wade in.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
There's a very serious kernel of Zakistan that is about belonging.
Speaker 12 (19:54):
Same reason why I really looked at Zakistan. I was like, oh,
I'm into this. It was because it's like not serious,
it's fun, it's an art project and at the same
time it's deadly serious and I really like that dynamic
of it. And yeah, exactly, he probably didn't even know what.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
He was doing. But I do think this belonging idea
is interesting, and whether that's belonging to an identity cultural
identity or an actual belonging, like I have a passport,
which I don't have yet, by the way, but somebody's
(20:36):
working on it. Right, two hundred bucks, I'll get you
two hundred bucks.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Mans's it is that would help things along? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Hold up, I've been waiting dutifully for whatever the hell
the passport process is to pan out, and all it
takes to get one is to grease the wheels with
some cash. I guess it's not that surprising, but actually
being Zakistani passport or not, that seems to be more
of a feeling. We talked about how Zach's never quite
(21:09):
felt like he belonged anywhere. He's half Chinese, half Jewish
ad Mike who's half Palestinian, half Mormon, and it's easy
to see the appeal of the Zakistani identity.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
My mom, after she retired, got kind of real into
family history and genealogy and whatnot. Went back to the
family village in China, and she had this experience where
everybody speaks, you know, her dialect, and the food that
they eat is like what my great grandmother used to make, right,
and so everybody looks like her.
Speaker 10 (21:42):
Right.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
So that's a place that she had never been to
and just kind of heard about. But once she was there,
it made sense right for me, And like some of
my cousins like we only we could only have like
half that experience, right, Because I mean, I feel like
I've traveled to some pretty odd ends of the earth,
and like there is no home village for me. There's
(22:04):
no place where people look like me, you know, where
people speak my dialect except for maybe southern California. You know,
this idea of multi cultural United States, right, this more inclusive,
more equitable, more representative thing. It's not just the kind
of aspirational box checking thing. It's for me, like, if
(22:27):
this doesn't work, right, if America is not actually like that,
I have no place to go.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Having no place to go, it's tempting to want to
create that kind of place. It's happened throughout history, let's
be honest. That's kind of how the state of Israel
was conceived. And although Zach is Jewish, he said he
doesn't think about Zakistan in terms of Israel, but still
the parallels are there, or maybe more accurately, they take
(22:56):
the same idea and go in opposite directions.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
I think the whole Israel Sienist project was flawed from
the start. You can't really sell that to the rest
of the world, the kind of exclusionary state, even if
you were like, all right, how do we keep you
safe around the world. I think what they're doing right
now is having the opposite effect.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
I wondered how Miken Zach's relationship has changed since the
war broke out. Despite the fact that they run their
own country and the fact that the Israeli Palestinian conflict
is extremely frat they don't talk politics so much. They
mostly talk as friends.
Speaker 12 (23:35):
On one level that I've never I identified with anybody
else is with this art project and with Zach, and
so like with Zach and like you like don't have
this on like you know, you cut this shit, but
like this is just straight up so I can talk
to him completely honestly and he gets what I'm saying,
(24:00):
and uh yeah, we just talk like straight up, almost
entrusting each other, and then we just come through and
it's like totally fun. Zach is an incredibly special friend.
For sure. I value him just as much as I
value anything in the world. And I mean that, so yeah, anyway,
(24:25):
never mind.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
The thing that's unique to me about Zakistan is that
it's not a political project. It is no formal ideology,
not unified by some belief in a specific political system.
That's different from Americas or Israel's or Lebanons. If it
has an ideology at all, it's that Zakistan can be
whatever you want it to be if you can just
(24:50):
figure out how to get there.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
Yeah, the just concept where there is a place that
maybe nobody can get to, but that where people included,
where you know, the that sense of belonging is open.
You know, that's a powerful concept.
Speaker 8 (25:05):
You know.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Sure, there's something kind of awesome about the fact that
the two of you do this project together. You know,
it's not like Kumbaya kind of shit or whatever, but
it's like a Jewish person, a Palestinian person making a
country in the desert. Like there's definitely something kind of
(25:30):
magical about that. Do you see it that way?
Speaker 3 (25:34):
I would say, I mean, yeah, although I wouldn't quite
reduce it like that, And I know Mikeabou would like
bristle at, I mean, what we're building yet there are
real aspects of it, But yeah, there's a lot of
other aspects. Mike's don't a relationship to the United States, right,
and to who belongs here who doesn't. I think we
(26:00):
share that right.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
For Mike's part, Zakistan is a bomb, a relief from
the complications of politics, both international and domestic.
Speaker 12 (26:09):
I think that might be what I've gravitated towards, is
the fact that this Zakistan itself sums up and rather
explains so much frustration that I have in the world.
It's just kind of like, yo, man, can't we all
just get along? It's true? It's true though, yeah, right.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
I was born in Iran. He moved after the revolution,
moved to Germany for about a year, hated it over there,
and then moved to California. And so I really grew
up in southern California.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
This is Ari Faraji, who was like Zach in his twenties.
When he saw a dio he couldn't pass.
Speaker 4 (26:54):
Up, being essentially first generation immigrant.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
I was ten he moved to the States.
Speaker 4 (27:01):
You know, my parents didn't teach me about stocks or
real state or investments or.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Anything like that.
Speaker 4 (27:07):
But you know, growing up, I just kept hearing about, hey,
land values always go up, always go up. And this
is when eBay was really taking off, and people were
buying property and trading and dealing on eBay, and I
just happened to be fiddling around on there found a
half acre block of land out in the middle of Utah,
(27:27):
which I had no idea where it was.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
It was for three hundred bucks. I'm like, all right,
you know, three hundred bucks, I can afford that.
Speaker 4 (27:33):
Let me just put some money down on it, and
you know, see what happens years past.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Ari never went out to the desert to see his land,
didn't think about it much until I tracked him down
through the county property records and cold called him.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
You know, for me, it was a three hundred bucks.
Speaker 4 (27:49):
I think it's assessed that like seven hundred bucks or
so right now, and my taxes are i don't know,
like a dollar or twelve cents or whatever it is
on the property. So nothing really ventured and nothing really
much gain.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
But at least I haven't really lost.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Anything, gotcha, gotcha? Yeah, So owning a little piece of
the American dream is kind of like a yeah, it
feels like a thing to do.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Yeah, you got it.
Speaker 4 (28:12):
Yeah. That was actually the first piece of real estate
that we owned, so my wife and I were actually quite.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Proud of that and so future plans to keep doing
the same or I haven't thought about it till I called.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
You mean about the property?
Speaker 4 (28:30):
Yeah, Like, am I planning on developing my own sovereign
nation on that half acre block and declaring my own country?
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Is that what you're thinking?
Speaker 1 (28:40):
Yeah, I'm wondering about that. Any plans to do that?
Speaker 4 (28:44):
No, I think I'm just gonna let it sit and
let it roll and you know, probably pass it down
to my kids and their kids, and who knows, maybe
down the line something will happen and it might be
worth something. It might be worth a thousand dollars one
hundred years down the line.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
You never know, climate change might you know, could be
underwater or something. Who knows. Right, Well, it's funny that
you brought up that sovereign nation idea. I don't know
if you were digging around, But are you aware of
some of the properties that border your property?
Speaker 2 (29:21):
I am not.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
No, Well, there actually is a property south of you,
and the guy who bought it his name is Zach
and he declared its sovereign and called it Zakistan.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
So that's hilarious, kist.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Yeah, So it's so actually now you're you know, now
your property is on an international border.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
That is it? So his property actually borders mine?
Speaker 1 (29:51):
It does? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Does he live on the property.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
He does not, No, he lives. He lives in Brooklyn.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Okay, all right, that's fanta plastic.
Speaker 4 (30:00):
You know what, I think I might create Aristan and
maybe even declare war on Zakistan.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
There you go. You'll have to invade and take down
his uh his robots.
Speaker 4 (30:15):
Or maybe I can just sell part of Aristan to
Zakistan and let them.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Annex are A Stan into Zakistan.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Ari's first reaction is to think of war annexation. It's
an understandable impulse. It's what nation states are good at doing.
Seems to be the raison data. It occurred to me
that now here we have in the middle of the
Utah Desert a scene of uncanny international relations, Zach a
Chinese American Jew, and Mike, a culturally Palestinian, politically Lebanese,
(30:49):
also Mormon American running an independent nation that now shares
a hostile border with a second newly conceived nation run
by an Iranian American. It was starting to feel like
maybe I wasn't so much in the middle of nowhere
as I was actually in the center of everything.
Speaker 8 (31:08):
M m.
Speaker 11 (31:20):
Well, I was trying to figure out. Uh, I've been
working on a project looking at land out in the
Utah Desert and it looks like you maybe own like
a tiny piece of land out there. I owned a
own a few pieces, Yes you do. Okay? Is that
(31:44):
something that was bought on eBay by any chance?
Speaker 9 (31:48):
Yeah?
Speaker 8 (31:50):
It was?
Speaker 11 (31:50):
Okay, maybe back in like, uh.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
Yeah, this is von Hanson. She lives in Florida.
Speaker 11 (32:00):
How did you like come across that? Was that? Just
like you found the listing and thought cool, I'll buy
some land.
Speaker 9 (32:10):
I don't recall it's been a really long time.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
So how does this relate to your podcast?
Speaker 11 (32:20):
Well, I am somebody who his name is Zach Landsberg.
He bought a couple acres of that land on eBay
and actually declared declared it to be an independent country.
Oh that sounds funny, but okay, yeah, so I believe
(32:43):
I believe your property is actually now has like an
international border on it. Okay, So you're saying one of
the persons that's bordered with my lad is.
Speaker 9 (33:00):
Did he get that?
Speaker 4 (33:01):
Like?
Speaker 7 (33:02):
How did he declare that his own country?
Speaker 11 (33:04):
That doesn't even make sense to me.
Speaker 6 (33:10):
This is so funny to me because I think this
is exactly how most people react when we tell them
about micro nations. At first they're like, wait, what you
can do that? You can just declare a nation? And
then we have to be like, I mean, yeah, technically
you can, but also not really, it's not legit.
Speaker 7 (33:28):
Well, there is that whole monts of Fideo convention thing
y'all told me about. Right, so there you have the
declarative statehood theory. But with that in mind, right, if
you go back to the Boston Tea Party, the founding fathers,
this dude's in like the powdered wigs and the establishment
of this country, and if you were asked, hey, was
that legitimate? Who's to say?
Speaker 5 (33:47):
Right?
Speaker 7 (33:47):
The British certainly wouldn't say that was legit, but we
all think of the US as this real nation.
Speaker 5 (33:54):
Right.
Speaker 7 (33:54):
So that was then, this is now and these days
no one questions a sovereignty of Americas. Well obviously unless
you ask some tribal leaders they would have a different opinion.
Speaker 6 (34:02):
Right, So all it takes to start a country is
a gruesome war and then two hundred and fifty years
of oppression, Easy peasy, exactly.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
Zach's theory of sovereignty is what you really need to
become a country isn't declaring anything or land and citizenry.
It's really guns and money, and you know, more guns
and money than the other guy.
Speaker 7 (34:26):
Yes, that tracks I mean from history. But look, look
we got guns, we got independence. The Canadians they still
kind of bend the knee and bout of the king, right.
Speaker 6 (34:34):
So that's an unnecessary dig at Canada's Aaron, they have healthcare. Okay,
might been the knee for some healthcare, I don't know,
but it's the same Ryan. I'm curious. Did Zach ever
actually declare sovereignty in some way?
Speaker 1 (34:48):
He did sort of back in two thousand and five.
He wrote out a declaration of secession, had a little
ceremonial signing in his apartment, and he thinks he's sent
it into the state department. He's not totally sure about that,
and then when I asked to see it, he couldn't
really find the document. So I don't know if that counts.
Speaker 7 (35:10):
It sounds like, following his own logic, he's gonna need
to go with the more guns approach.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Yeah, probably, I mean, his buddy Ivo Zadarsky lives out
at the airplane hangar in the desert. He's got plenty
of guns and they actually have a friend nicknamed machine
gun Mike. And back when we stopped by, Ivo showed
us a video of him and machine gun Mike, you know,
doing what you do out there.
Speaker 9 (35:33):
That's how I say, machine gun Mike, play court up
there we go. That's thirty round. Let's think circles, like
eighteen hundred rounds per minute.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
What's the what are you supposed to use that for?
Speaker 9 (35:52):
Just to have fun kind of fun.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
Ivo was from the former Czechoslovakia. He's been playing with guns,
building air planes and things since he was a teenager. Now,
as we know, sovereignty in Eastern Europe can be hard
to come by with Russia along your border. So back
in the eighties, Ivo took matters into his own hands
left his homeland, but he didn't exactly go through customs.
(36:16):
Would you be up for talking a little bit about
your backstory, which one I guess I was thinking before
you came to America. Ah, the Czech Czechoslovaka story.
Speaker 9 (36:29):
Yeah, well yeah, I will send Czechoslovaka. I didn't like
it that afil I escaped from.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
There that's a simplified version. Yeah. I knew about Ivo's
backstory before we met, read a few articles about him
in his complex and truly wild journey to America, a
journey that started years before the fall of the Berlin
Wall when Soviet tanks rolled through the streets of Prague.
What didn't you like about it?
Speaker 9 (36:57):
There were these Communists people there, and I didn't get
along with them.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
Is this place kind of the opposite of that?
Speaker 12 (37:08):
Almost?
Speaker 9 (37:09):
Yeah, that's as far as I could get away from them.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
I mean, you didn't just escape, But could you give
me like a quick version of kind of what you did?
Speaker 8 (37:21):
Oh?
Speaker 9 (37:21):
Yeah, I had to build a powered hang glider. It's
like a tricycle. Gear drive it on the ground and
then there's a hang lighter on the top. It's got
the engine in a bag.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Then it flies.
Speaker 9 (37:37):
So I just made it and at night I just
flew to Austria.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
I was being modest making it sound easy. First of all,
his glider was cobbled together over many months with bits
of things you could find in communist Czechoslovakia. Wheels from
a wheelbarrow, a small car engine, motorcycle parts, a red
launch hair style seat with a single seatbelt. So you've
built your own plane in a garage.
Speaker 9 (38:04):
No, in a small room in an apartment on the
fourth floor.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
Because you had to do all that in secret. Yeah,
I tell them kind of. Yeah. Well, Ivo was testing
his plane one day. He got stopped by the police.
They confiscated the plane. He eventually brabbed his way to
getting it back, put it in his apartment, and waited
for just the right time in the right weather conditions,
and then you carried it down the fourth floor.
Speaker 9 (38:34):
Yeah, I'm gonna yeah, you cut it down, you shove
it in the car, and you go somewhere, and so
you have some room to take off and you fly.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
All in the cover of night. And this is communist
Czechoslovakia in nineteen eighty four. So if you got caught
taking off.
Speaker 9 (39:01):
Well, providing you are still alive and they're not shooting
at you. Some guy made the Jarro capture and tried
to escape, but somehow he got lost in a fog
or clouds or whatever, and he kind of landed back
in Czechoslovakia in some military area. So he was in
(39:22):
jail and his machine was in a police museum.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
So I wanted to do it better.
Speaker 9 (39:27):
So I'm not in jail, and my machine is not
in a police museum, is in a book museum in
West Berlin.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
The checkpoint checkpoint. Yeah you know, yeah yeah. Ivo's flying
machine is on display at Checkpoint Charlie, the iconic Cold
War museum, located at the main gate between the former
East and West Berlin. I've actually seen the glider myself,
about twenty years ago. The whole thing isn't much bigger
(39:57):
than my ride on lawnmower. Zach knew about Ivo's backstory too,
but he never really got any details until this trip.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
Did you start flying?
Speaker 1 (40:08):
Like when it was like selling things with angliders?
Speaker 9 (40:13):
Was just throwing myself off the cliffs with it.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
I don't do this anymore. I got spoilt now.
Speaker 9 (40:21):
I like aircraft whig as a door and here and
engineery doesn't quit.
Speaker 3 (40:30):
As a kid, were you like interested in flight, in
airplanes and stuff, I.
Speaker 9 (40:34):
Was making rockets with a black powder, you know, with
explosive floorheads and still things like that. So I guess
that's kind of flying through.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
So you just you were kind of self taught.
Speaker 3 (40:48):
Yeah, trial and error.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Learning to fly a plane by trial and error seems
like a bad idea.
Speaker 9 (40:55):
Well, I just I didn't have my choice. So but
it's long. If you don't kill yourself, it hurts sometimes,
got I mean you got bruises everywhere, you know, one scratches,
you know. I remember that well. But I guess it
(41:17):
was worth in all those few moments when you actually flew,
when you're no longer running and you're actually flying.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
So is that how it felt crossing over the Iron Curtain?
Speaker 11 (41:28):
Like?
Speaker 9 (41:29):
No, that was easy. It was a recreational flight. I
mean it was beautiful by everything worked.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
The border between Czechoslovakia and Austria was heavily fortified on
the ground, at least sniper towers, electric fences, land mines.
BiVO sailed right over all. That quieted the engine and
hope the radar didn't start pinging. How long was the flight?
Speaker 9 (41:53):
Well, I was in Austria like across the border like
ten to fifteen minutes, but then it probably took me
like almost an hour to get to Vienna. And then
it was still dark, so I had plenty of feels,
so I just made a sight sing to it of Vienna,
so probably like at least three hour flight, and then
(42:15):
I found the international airport to I just landed right there.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
What did they say when you landed first?
Speaker 9 (42:21):
There was a mechanics. They seemed to be kind of upset.
I think that the thought I don't belong to places
like that. So I just pulled out my expired check
passport and I told them, well, hey, I just escaped.
I would like to ask for a political asylum. And
then they changed their mind completely and they gave me
(42:44):
caffee and donuts, you know, and all that. They were
happy that they were showing my machine to everybody.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
I was ultimate goal was to make it to the US,
to find a country he could build a better life
in country that he had more space where he could
roam freely. He sold his flying machine to the museum
and used that money to buy a real plane ticket
across the Atlantic. Did you didn't stay long in Vienna?
Speaker 9 (43:12):
No, because I kind of passed off the check version
of KGB and they were after me. So so those
students were kind of hiding me. And then no more.
You have to wait till these like six months to
get to the US, and somehow the US let me in.
Then after like six weeks.
Speaker 1 (43:35):
I've awaited less time to get into the US than
i've waited for my Zakistani passport. Maybe before I leave
Zakstan I can claim asylum or something. I'll just tell
Mike I don't like the direction my country's going, so
can we make this happen kind of quickly. For his part,
after I've arrived in the US, he lived out of
a camper van he bought with the rest of his
(43:57):
museum money. He started tinkering with airplane forellar designs, selling
them to hobbyists. He grew it into a successful aviation
business in California, did the American dream thing for a while,
and then in two thousand and seven he heard about
a deal he couldn't pass up.
Speaker 7 (44:14):
You don't a at a border, A great please to
get away. This very rare to bind parcel comes with
beautiful vistas and is near.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Roads, having land yearning for nationhood. It motivates people to
leave their homeland and go somewhere new. But you get
there and then what how does this nation and belonging
thing actually work? Is it actually possible to build a
cultural safe haven in the middle of the desert? We
(44:48):
made it.
Speaker 5 (44:48):
Look at that you did it?
Speaker 10 (44:52):
Fucking I right?
Speaker 1 (44:53):
Oh, I've entered Zakistani territory.
Speaker 5 (45:00):
Oh my god, holy shit, what is that?
Speaker 8 (45:03):
Bulls bull holes in it?
Speaker 6 (45:10):
Escape from Zakistan is a production of iHeart Podcasts and
School of Humans. The show was written by Ryan Murdoch.
Sarah Burnett is our story editor and co host. Reporting,
hosting and editing by Gabby Watson Ryan Murdoch. Editing by
Emily Meronoff. Music and sound designed by Jesse Niswanger. Show
art by Lucy Keintonia. Executive producers are Jason English, Brandon Barr,
(45:30):
Elsie Crowley for Jenny Prescott and Ryan Murdoch. Thanks for listening.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com