April 12, 2022 • 37 mins
Last week we spoke with Miski Noor about their community organizing in Minneapolis. To continue that conversation this week, we'll speak with Benjamin Crump who is one of the foremost figures in our current social justice movement. He has represented families in multiple high-profile police violence cases, including the families of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, and Ahmaud Arbery. He has been leading the same fight in the courtroom that Miski and Black Visions have been leading on the front lines in Minneapolis. Part two of two.
Learn more about Benjamin Crump: https://bencrump.com/
Episode Transcript: https://app.trint.com/public/af72bb47-ef08-4144-86f5-f252adffe699
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello, everyone. I'm Wilmer Valderrama and I'm m R. Riquel.
This is Essential Voices. Last week we spoke with miss
Key Nor, organizer, writer and co director of Black Visions
in Minneapolis. Speaking with miss Key begin an important conversation
that we wanted to continue to unpack this week with
civil rights lawyer Ben Crump. Ben Crump is one of
(00:23):
the foremost figures in our current social justice movement. He's
represented families in multiple high profile cases, including the families
of George Floyd, Brianna Taylor, and Amada are Brey. I
was so honored to have been on the show, and
there's so much we can learn from him. So let's
get to it. Our round table with Ben Crump starts now.
(00:46):
First of all, I just want to say how proud
I am to be speaking to you and O m R.
And I can testify that we've definitely been the front
road to see your show up for the community and
for people in this conversation. As we move into the
round tables, often times when we do man is we
try to visualize what is the world that we're trying
to build for, you know, and where are we heading
(01:07):
and how do we think about solutions, community based solutions.
I know that we've done a great job of creating
signals and broadcasting the messaging and most importantly the agenda
of some of the outcomes we need as communities, you know,
but we also try to visualize, you know, from a
community standpoint and from individuals like you and I, who
can you know, use their strengths to continue to create
a more thorough and more elaborate and efficient operation as
(01:30):
we move forward to that needle moving moment. I also
like to offer that, you know, this is a place
where we can inspire each other and really think about,
you know, how we move forward together as well. So
there'll be a plenty of opportunities in this conversation to
dive into that. But first and foremost, just thank you
for being here, Thank you for having me. I mean,
you know, just to kind of kick things off a
(01:51):
little bit. What were your reactions to Miss Gain? As
I listen to Miss I thought a lot about how
traumatized the community is there in Minneapolis because George Floyd happens,
and it's just literally shocks everybody and galvanized people in
Minneapolis and all across the world, literally the globe. People
(02:13):
were marching, saying, until we get justice for George Floyd,
none of us can breathe, but women as soon as
we in the trial, then they shoot and killed Dante right,
And you're like, my lord, how many times are you
gonna get the message that you don't have to shoot
first and ask questions later, or use excessive for us
(02:35):
because we are citizens too. Don't police us and protect
and serve everybody else? No, protect and serve us as well.
And then unbelievably, a mayor Luck is killed by Minneapolis
Police Department. And so I'm listening to MS. He's talking
about doing the frontline work and the mental care, and
(02:57):
I'm thinking they gotta be just exhausted going through the
cycle of trying to get people to believe, to say, hey,
we're gonna make the system better. Let's all work together.
And then Dante right a mere lot, and they're saying,
is it futless what we're doing, because it seems like
(03:18):
nothing is stopping the hashtags from being created. And before
George Floyd, there was Philando because still in the Twin
Lakes area, they were Mark Clark. I mean, it was
so many people of color being killed unjustly by law enforcement.
And so the thing I kept thinking when I listened
to Mr is this concept called racial battle fatigue. It's
(03:43):
almost like Dr Smith, professor from Utah, he created this
concept when you see this trauma unfold where a person
is killed a minority and nothing changes the kind of
psychological trauma it has on all the people in that
community that knew that person, not as a hashtag, not
(04:05):
as a cause, but as a fellow human being. And
it's almost like he said, you in war, you got
post traumatic stress disorder, but nobody's acknowledging in Minneapolis or
in cities across the country. And so that's what I thought.
I just felt like, man, even the people who are
trying to provide help are gonna need counsel, and not
(04:28):
just the families. We'll be right back after this break,
welcome back to essential voices. That was something that really
struck me from my conversation with miss Key. It was
the commitment that they were talking about at Black Visions
to providing stipends for self care in all of its forms,
be it acupuncture or massage, you know, towards self care
(04:50):
in this new way that folks are viewing it. And
I think that makes us positioned now in this moment
more than ever to know how to take care of
ourselves and in turn take care of our communities in
a way that we've never really done so before, And
so hearing this from them gave me a lot of hope.
But to bring this to our conversation today, Mr Crump,
in miss Key story, they point out something that I
thought a lot about throughout the last couple of years,
(05:12):
which is that throughout the years of the pandemic, it
seems like more and more folks have become familiar with
abolitionist work and abolitionist futures. I think this is in
part due to the dissemination of information that's occurred online
throughout the pandemic, especially in the aftermath of the murder
of George Floyd. So for you, Mr Crump, I have
kind of a two part question, which is, while the
(05:34):
movements towards abolition have always existed, how do you see
the relationship between the pandemic and these movements? And also,
in your opinion, has the pandemic amplified the work that
you're doing and moved the needle towards a more collective
or cohesive understanding of the abolitionist work that is still
yet to be done. Well, I think the answer is
(05:55):
to fold Brianna Taylor, Amadabrey and then George Floyd happening.
I believe at the height of the pandemic, everybody was
home to shut down. You couldn't do anything at all.
We were watching where our devices and television. And so
when you saw the Amador video, you saw the pictures
(06:18):
in the video after Brianna Taylor had been mutilated with
nine bullets and her body in her own apartment because
they executed this no not warrant in Louisville, Kentucky. And
then you know, just when we was getting everybody's attention
to say her name, you didn't had George Floyd comp
and say I can't breathe, you know twenty eight times. Well,
(06:41):
he kept his knee on his neck, and you thought
you were watching a Hollywood movie. He's certain he's gonna
take his knee off his neck. You know, this can't
be real. And he never took his knee off his neck.
And so the fact that we were in the midst
of a global pandemic that we had never seen before
or and we were all focused on our devices, I
(07:03):
think that made George Floyd reverberate across the world even faster,
even in a more prolific manner. And so I had
not left my house. I don't know about y'all. I
had left my house in about six to seven weeks
because the pandemic, and it was George Floyd being murdered
in the way he was murdered, tortured to death. That
(07:25):
finally got me to leave my house and go meet
with his family, because it was that traumatic to me
as affect tator somebody who just watched the video, and
it was deep because I think in that way, the
pandemic made people pay attention more. But then also it
was kind of hard organizing, as ms Ley said, because
(07:47):
it was a pandemic and people were afraid to get
the coronavirus, and so it was a very interesting dynamic,
to say the least. When Missy said, people made a
decision that police violence was more dangerous than the pandemic
to them, and they all came out and it was
beautiful women. I looked at the crowds across the country.
(08:10):
You had geographical diversity, you had aged diversity. I mean
you have old people, young people, all marching in units
and saying, we gotta get this right. I had never
been invited to speak to so many corporations then after
George Floyd. I have a nine year old daughter. Week
I tell about unity. When you put your fists together,
(08:33):
it's almost impossible to divide it. But when you hold
your hands separate, it's easy to break our fingers. And
so we have to come together. When I walk into
courtrooms or walk the rest, I always put my fists
in the air to symbolize that we are united, stronger together.
And so I hope that answered your question. Mr. I
(08:56):
think it was unique that nobody was protesting and too
much before George Floyd because of the pandemic. But after
that video here, we all came out of our houses
and said we just got to do something. Humanity requires
us to do something. You're so right. I mean, it's
like what ms Key said. The need to be together
(09:17):
and organized and be a community was stronger and outweighed
the fear of getting COVID in those moments. So thank you,
Mr Trump. That was really beautifully said. And Wilmer, do
you have anything to add? Yeah, no, I couldn't agree
with you more. And I think that there was a
moment in where we realized that was the proof of
concept that we've been waiting for over seven years, you know,
We've been waiting for all of our communities to feel
(09:40):
a part of the sentiment of the message, you know.
And I think when you look at how many cultures,
like you said, and you know, how many cultures were
united in one voice and broadcasted universal virtue of justice
and safety, and it was a really beautiful moment. And
I often think of times, you know, and I'm pretty
sure we'll dive into this a little bit more, but
how do you sustain that signal? How do you continue
(10:03):
to keep it alive? Considering that what we did was
break a mold and made it better, and then we
think about the deflating moments where it keeps happening over
and over again, you know. So in many ways, it
makes me think a lot about what you do, because
as the attorney for George Floyd's family, along with many
families who have lost low ones to police brutality, like
right now you are representing the family of a mayor
(10:24):
log can you tell us a bit more about your work,
and you know, kind of what gets lost in the
public conversation. It's so interesting to me because I think,
you know, there is a perception of what it takes
to do what your job as a title does, but
what you've done beyond this message and being available to
continue to broadcast that signal of the why you stand
(10:45):
up for these families. It's what's really survived through not
just the pandemic and the movement in the marches. It's
what's been heard loud and cleared. Now, thank you for that, Willmen.
I think, essentially I am a civil rights lawyer. At
my core, we do a lot of trial work for
other matters, but it's this calling. My mission in life,
I believe, is to go try to fight for people
(11:08):
who are marginalized, victimized, and disenfranchised, no matter what situation
they may find themselves in, to try to give them
a voice. My personal hero is Thurgood Marshall. He's my
north star. And you know, I think about the things
that I encountered, the obstacles, and you know it's not
a bit of roses. But we get death threats and
(11:31):
we get things from the enemies of equality, but it's
nothing like what Thurgood Marshall has to encounter. During his day,
people would say he's gonna take a case. All the
communities of color would get excited there against coming, there
against coming. But then the Cluculus Klan and the white
supremacist groups, they were getting ready for Third Good to
(11:52):
come to this negro from New York, as he was
often referred to when he would come across the South
and across America. And it's deep because I think about
how they would have to move from house to house
every night while he's in that town working on the case.
Same fans that I was in Minneapolis almost two months
working on George Floyd. I got to stay in the
(12:13):
comfort of my hotel row every day. They're Good new
that if he stayed more than one night any particular place,
the lynch mob was gonna come and get him and
kill him. But he was still show up the next
day in court, Mayor, and everybody's hostile. They mad saying,
(12:33):
how do you deal with it? And you know, what
do you do when you get these threats? And I said, well,
you know, you don't take them for granted, You take
them seriously. You report it to the FBI, and then
you show up the next day to let them know
that there's nothing they can do to make you afraid
for standing up our community and standing up for our children.
(12:54):
That there are some things you have to be willing
to die for. And so that's my mission to be
a person who's unapologetic and saying that I will stand
up for our children's future. I will speak up for
our children's future, and I will fight for our children's future.
They have an equal opportunity that life and liberty and
(13:16):
the pursuit of happiness like any of the citizens in America.
And so I go and I fight in courtrooms and
sometimes get in trouble. So if they ever put me
in jail, you don't let me pull in the night
over jail. Now, y'all come and get me. We got you,
We we got you. And appreciate those words beautifully said.
And it's beautiful to you know, hear ourselves in in
(13:37):
that sentiment, because in America, we are one, you know,
and specifically when we share, you know, our skin color,
you know, when we know that our skin color, for
the history of our contribution to this country has been
looked at as not equal to say the least. And
I really appreciate that. M R. It's so true what
you're saying, and I want to bring things back to
(13:59):
our central work or MSKY for a moment and ask you,
Mr Crump, from your perspective, we're rolled to local organizations
like Black Visions in Minneapolis play in supporting these movements
and in supporting the work that you're doing. Now. It's critical, Mr,
it is absolutely essential. And I've developed this model that
we have to fight in two courts, one in the
(14:21):
court of law and the other, which I think is
more influential, is in the court of public opinion. And
so we have to affect the hearts and minds of
the society and the community if we're gonna ever have
a chance of getting some semblance of accountability and justice
in the courtroom. And so I think it's critical that
(14:42):
we have people fighting in the court and the court.
And that's what the organizers, I call it freedom fighters.
That's what they do. You know, these freedom fighters, they
show up. They ain't got no healthcare benefits, they ain't
got no pensions, you know, they ain't got no hourly way,
but they show up because something has driven Then I'm
just saying we have to do something. Our solace is
(15:03):
betrayal that's awesome. I've been part of the cooler, like
a league of extraordinary individuals, right, Like, I feel like,
you know, for so many years of my life. I'm
going into seventeen years of activism myself, and where I
just kind of decided that, you know, public speaking and
most importantly, community engagement was an extension of my career.
So I've made mentors like you that I've learned so
(15:25):
much from, and not just in the words, but in
their actions. And what you're mentioning is so so incredibly
sobering because it reminds me of, you know, how many
generations have taken that spirit and kept the torch moving forward, right,
I mean, you think about how many different individuals and
of the many cultures that are actually gotten in the
game and made sure that you know, the torch never
goes out and that it continues to move forward. And
(15:47):
it makes me think been about so many things. And
you know, for me, a lot of the work that
I do is obviously within the Latino community and the
African American community. I do a lot of work with
our Native communities as well, And I think about two
sides of this question, and right, which is, how do
you see in the non black communities of colored coming
together to support this work. And in the same coin,
(16:08):
when you flip the coin, how do you feel that
your community can also help amplify the other communities that
are in the same fight. Because but there's so much
that we can learn from the movement and the multi
generations and decades and decades that the African American community
has been fighting for justice inequality and at the same
time workshopping and sharpening the tools as we continue to
(16:29):
fight together. Now right, yeah, now, Wilmer, that is the
crux of the matter. I think that is the key
there as coming together. It would be disingenuous for anybody
to say that if you hear somebody crying out because
they are being marginalized or disenfranchised, to not try to
(16:52):
answer the bail And so I've just hired two attorneys
who are of Latin descent and they are helping us
to try to identify how we can amplify a lot
of our Hispanic brothers and sisters who have been either
killed or terribly harm as a result of excessive force.
(17:13):
And I will say this to you all, You're gonna
hear the name of Michael Ortiz and down in the Hollywood,
Florida and near Miami. He was having a mental health crisis.
He was face down, start naked and handcuffs and broad daylight,
and the police officers shot him in the back and
(17:35):
paralyzed him. They are fighting us to keep that video
from being released to the public, but I think that
is gonna be the case. I won't say it's worse
than George Florida, but it's as bad as George Floyd.
And when a brother, Michael Ortiz, who is of Hispanic descent,
doesn't speak English, only speak Spanish, when that happens, I
(17:59):
think we all should rise up, just like we did
for George Floyd. And I'm gonna use everything in my power,
all my resources, all my whatever skills I have to
influence the media to say, Michael Ortisse, life matters. To
thank you for sharing this with us, Mr Crump. It's
important to remember intersectionality like you and Wilma are talking
(18:22):
about when understanding the work that's happening collectively across black
and brown communities. And I think we're sort of in
this moment in the conversation of thinking about as Wilmer
said towards the beginning of creating the world that we
want to get to. And I'm hearing a lot of
collaboration between different communities as part of the way that
we're going to get there, bolstering each other and showing
up together, being there on the front lines together. And
(18:44):
one thing we spoke about with Miskey was their charter
amendment in Minneapolis to replace a police department with the
Department of Public Safety, which unfortunately did not pass. But
in your mind, Mr Crump, as we keep working towards
abolitionist futures, what are the alternative ways to move forwards
in regard to policing. Yeah, I think you have to
just believe that in your heart that whatever the challenges are,
(19:07):
we can meet them together and overcome them. And the
only way we can survive this attack on our most
essential right is to come together and say no, no,
we have to stand together. If we are divided, they
will take out democracy from us. Oh amen to that.
And furthermore, you know that whatever leadership gets the desk,
(19:31):
you know, it makes the decisions and signs off from
positions and rules and laws. You know in new ways
of engaging the community. You know, it also really does
directly affects both of us, both of our communities, and
like I said, we're in the same neighborhood. So if
those decisions are made upon us and onto us, you know,
and for us, then we're gonna be in a lot
of trouble because there will be no comprehension or decisions
(19:54):
being made by people that understand what he's like to
live in the same hip code. And that's major. I
appreciate you offering that. I know there's a lot of
rallying up going on specifically with this voting because that
the fracturing of our majorities, you know, speaking out loud
and I'm talking majorities as African Americans and Latinos are
becoming the majority. And some of these voting blogs and
it's important that they are not heard, but they are
(20:16):
part of the tailoring right, the making of our country.
We're putting the breaks down ourselves too, you know, so
that's super important. I appreciate your offering that and reminding
us of continuing get behind that, because you're right, there's
a lot of work coming up. We had a lot
of work cut off for ourselves. In the next chapter
of the voting conversation, we'll be right back after this break,
(20:36):
Welcome back to essential voices as it relates to this
whole concept of defunding the police. I'm a trial lawyer,
and so I understand how you framing there. Tip If
you're framing a certain way, then you can predict what's
going to happen. So you always have to be very
careful how you frame things. I know if we frame
(21:00):
it a different way where it's inviting more people to
the table, more stakeholders, that we can be successful in
achieving their objectives. What do I mean? I tend to
think instead of saying defund the police, that I know
will polarize completely one have person. No matter how pure
our intentions may be, you have to frame it or
(21:24):
characterize it as saying, how can we reimagine public safety?
Because now you have invited people to come to the
table and say, let's see how we can reimagine this
thing called public safety. And we all want safety, and
so who can be against safety? And so that's something
(21:44):
where you it's an invitation, it's an olive branch versus
aligne in the sand. And then you talk about the public, Well,
everybody wants their family to be safe, and so you
think about your family is part of the public. So
you said, I can we reimagine entity that keeps all
of us safe. Everybody is safe where the police officers
(22:07):
can get home to their families and loved ones, but
also our young people of color can get home to
their families and loved ones as well. Let's talk about
that there. Does that mean us trying to institute more
community policing where you got police who actually know the
people who they're supposed to be protecting and servants, so
(22:29):
there's not this veil of ignorance when they see a
little black or brown person running away from them and
they say, I feel them and shoot them in the back,
versus no, no, that's Randy or that's whoever running away
and I know them, so I don't shoot first and
ask questions later. Or how can we incentivize police to
(22:51):
live in the communities, whether you say we're gonna provide
a stipend and some of this big police budget to
have police who live in the commun or start recruiting
from inside the community people that want to be part
of the solution to public safety. And we should always
keep framing it public safety that way. It invites everybody
(23:12):
to the table, and you know, having with all these
mental health crisis and parallel rate, we need to have
social workers working with police departments as well, you know,
all these different things we need to do to try
to come up with the solution to say, how can
we prevent so many hashtags that keep happening? And so
(23:34):
that's how I choose to tackle that issue, and we
inherited a lot of that pain. You know, a lot
of that pain comes from multigenerationals and it's encoding as
a blueprint of the how to deal with when you're
presented with ex or exhibit exhibit, you know, and you
react very much like a tradition, and it's a tough
thing to see. This may be a controversial question, but
(23:57):
the question is based on all the work we've done,
how strong and how global our signals have become, how
small the world has also become things to the same
platform that you described earlier, which is technology that I
was actually united in odd in different categories in ways
that we never thought we would be connected or related
to one another. Run are things getting a little better?
(24:20):
Do we feel like we're seeing a little bit of
that sunrise at the end of that horizon? You know,
we've been getting up early, very every day, you know
what I mean, We're trying to get that sun right.
So you know, I wonder if there is a little
bit of that. And from your perspective from where you sit,
do you see a shift, you see a paradigm a
little bit, you see that there is this promise. Yeah,
(24:41):
and Wilmer, I think, as we come to the Trademar
Martin tenure observation, we're gonna sit all over the media
trade Bond more and ten years later, how far has
America calm and achieving equality and justice fall? How far
have we come in our pursuit for racial justice? And
(25:02):
I think that we've seen some things in recent months
that show us we're making progress. When you think about
the conviction, and I think this is part of Treybond
Martin's legacy, that you had the conviction of officer Derek
Schovin for killing George Floyd keeping his knee on his
neck for nine minutes and twenty nine seconds. I think
(25:24):
that's part of Trey Bond's legacy because he raised the
consciousness level in America. He made more awareness of these matters.
And then you saw the white policewoman Kimp Potter get
convicted for killing Dante, right. You know, she said she
went to pull her table, but she pulled a gun
and shot him in the chest. And you think bad
(25:45):
to Oscar Grant, you know. And Oakland, California, the subway station,
the basis of the movie Fute Bill Station. When we
first met Michael B. Jordan's and so forth, it was
kind of deep because you saw that officer gotta slap
on the rear, spent less than a year in jail,
but now we see we're making progress. When the officers
(26:06):
used the same excuse and no, by the way, that's
the excuse they're gonna use on that Michael Ortiz case.
I was telling you about that, he said, well, I
meant the pure of my days, and even though they
had already tasted them twice before, and then certainly with
Ahmared Arbley, where this Lynch mob got convicted of lending
this young African American man who was jogging, and so
(26:28):
they left them for joggon while black. Not in nineteen
for the nineteen fifty, but in two thousand twenty, and
I would day m j they left this year man.
So we can't talk about you know, back those days,
no and our day this happened and broad daylight and
on TV, and they were free for seven to three days.
They slept in their own bed and women that blew
(26:51):
my mind, just like they had video. But they still
took a white man who lefts this young black man's
word that oh where he attacked this's and everything. And
they saw this video where they chased him for almost
five minutes while he ran for his life. And so
when I think about those things, because that was eleven
(27:12):
white people and one black person on the jury in
the deep south of Georgia, and they came back despite
all the dog whispered. I don't know if y'all followed
that trial where they tried to say, you know, his
Ashley legs and his feet with dirty like he was
a runaway slave and all this craziness, but the jury
(27:33):
saw through that and they convicted that lynch mob. And
so what it tells me is that we are making progress.
We're absolutely making progress, but we have to remember it's
a journey to justice. Like any journey, sometimes you take
two three steps forward and then take a step back.
But what we have to remember on this journey we
(27:54):
just got to keep our eyes on the prize. Brother,
keep my eyes on the prize. That's so incredibly well put.
I mean, we're coming at a crossroads right where we
go what do we broadcast? We broadcast the outcomes, the solutions, right,
the uplifting moments, or do we continue to broadcast the
terror right? And I think it's a combination, right, because
(28:14):
the point is that it's important for our communities to
understand the gravity that we carry on our shoulders. It's
also important to share those uplifting moments when actually it
does work, where we actually did it right to do that.
And that's why I asked you that controversial question because
and I say air quotes when I say controversial, because
(28:36):
it seems to me like most of the shows that
I listened to, most of the news that we see there,
they're broadcasting the happening, not the outcomes, right, And I
think it's important to see what happens when when you
do your work and it works, you know, and what
that does for society and what and what does that
to community? And what fire does it light up? What ignites,
(28:57):
what energy re energizes the movement? And I think it's
as important it is to raise awareness for injustice. It's
also important to raise awareness. But when it works, you know,
because I think that we got to get behind your movement.
We gotta get behind what you do. And I know
we've come a long way, you know, in the last
couple of years. There's you know, there's obviously clear that
(29:18):
we have a lot of work to do, you know,
but it specifically and living in the society that we
all feel super proud to go home and to live
in this country that gives us the opportunity to be
anything that we want to be. And in most cases,
people of color in the last couple of decades have
proven that they can be anything they want, including the
President of the United States, right. I mean when you
(29:38):
look at the President Obama, we said, oh, we're in America.
We're officially in America, you know, And and I love
that sentiment in your mind. What are some actionable steps
that you know they can taken to continue to embrace
progressing forward, you know, and hopefully looking at that world
that we see, you know, as ours and as the
one that we want to call home. Yeah, and you
(30:00):
make such an important point that we have to look
at the momentum. We can't just always talk about how
bad it is, and that makes people not feel inspired.
And man, the last sixty months, we should feel really
inspired because we're saying historical verdicts that we never saw
(30:21):
before happened. And we're not saying we forget the struggle, because,
as the great Frederick Douglas Negro abolitionists said, without struggle,
there can be no progress. So we should never shy
away from the struggle. If we're in the struggle, that
means we're making progress. But the two things I think,
in particular women that really gives me hope is the
(30:44):
fact that in the aftermath of all of this stuff,
we saw great progress being made over five hundred cities.
After George Floyd outlawed and abolished the your goal, they said,
our police department, you can't do that anymore. We don't
want you choking nobody putting your knee on they net.
(31:05):
The people have spoken, We heard them, and so we're
gonna abolish the chokehole. And then you saw after Brianna Taylor,
even though we got work to do in Minneapolis, there
were three states and over a hundred cities that abolished
no knock warrants that were being disproportionately executed against black
(31:26):
and brown families and so in violation of the Fourth
Amendment against unreasonable searches and seizures. I mean, it's crazy
when you think about the police bust in your house
at this time of day when most Americans are enjoying
their rights to the Second Amendment, and they got a
good and you didn't announce themselves. Man, it's a danger
for police and a danger for the citizens. And so
(31:49):
after Brianna Taylor, we saw a lot of progress there,
and then after mild Opery, Georgia was only one of
three states left into the United States of America where
they didn't have a state hate crime law that says
if you kill somebody or you injure somebody motivated by race,
then we can make enhancement on the punishment. That makes progress. Brother,
(32:12):
Now we're down to two states, you know. So there's
a lot of progress being made, and a lot of
this happens because of the activists, the people in the
community saying our silence is betrayal and we have to
speak up. And so while I'm fighting in the court
with many talented and great lawyers, it's so helpful when
(32:33):
we have your voice. Well, I mean think about your influence, brother,
I mean, you adored all over the world. And so
when you say I would use my voice to give
a voice to people that might not otherwise get a voice,
and it makes all the difference in the world. Thank
you for those words. I take it too hard because
I was born in Miami and I was raised in Venezuela.
(32:55):
When they came back to the United States, you know,
I was a citizen that was blessed to be a citizen.
Or when they can back to the United States, you know,
one of the ways that I felt that I could
pay it forward was ultimately to just get involved and understand,
you know, what do we need? Where can I show up?
And I say this as kind of an example and
an inspiration in the beacon of what you're saying. Then,
because I think our listeners and and everyone the audiences,
(33:18):
that the fans out there, the people that support these conversations,
you know, also have a strength that they haven't necessarily
embraced or cultivated. You know, they live in a neighborhood
that may share the same or may not share the
same opinion. This simple acts of conversations of kindness in
which you invite the disagreement. We have to allow ourselves
(33:39):
to disagree to find where we can walk together so
we can truly get to where we gotta go. And
I think that that's ultimately I mean, and you do
it beautifully. You try to find the common ground so
you can get these outcomes. You can get these results
that iconically have changed so much in history. And I
think about the power that our communities have to find
that conversation that these arms most invites all of them
(34:01):
to really get involved, and how do we walk together?
And I'm just so blessed and Ben, Honestly, I've said
this to our teams before and specifically back when we
used to do work at Hardness. We're just so blessed
to have you driving. And we're so happy when you
hear that you're putting on the jersey and you're getting
in the game, you know, because we understand it's about
to be a journey. And I'm just so proud and
so grateful that way with a grace us with your
(34:23):
voice here on essential voices, you have quite a few
fights coming ahead of you, and any thoughts and then
maybe how the community can support the work you're doing.
I will say this, and I'll try to say as
briefly as I can, because it really is what I
believe in my heart, my personal hero. Third good Marshall
saying that the two hundred year celebration of the signing
(34:45):
of the Declaration of Independence, that the basis of the
United States Constitution is simply this. He said that a
black baby going to a black mother, the most uneducated
Black mother, the most inarticulate Black mother, the most impoverished
Black mother, has the same exact rights as a white
(35:10):
baby born to a white mother, the most educated white mother,
the most articulate white mother, the most affluent white mother,
just by virtue of that baby drawing his first breath
as an American citizen. Now, he said, I know that's
not the case in America today, but I challenge anybody
(35:32):
to say that's not a goal we're fighting for. I
challenge anybody to say that's not what makes America the
great beacon of hope and justice for all the world
to marvel. And so when people want to help, all
they have to do is use their voice, whatever influence
(35:53):
they have. When they see an injustice, don't look away,
speak truth to power. I love Ben's metaphor about the
close fist versus the open hand, and how we are
always so much more powerful when we come together. We
are living in such a historical moment, and I'm truly
(36:13):
hopeful that the momentum will continue and we will start
to see some real change. It was truly an honor
to be in conversation with both Miss Key and Mr
Crump to find out more ways that the community can
continue showing up to end police brutality. Next week, please
join us as we speak to so lunch Ramkisson, a
survivor support specialist who works as part of a sexualis
(36:35):
Soul response team and answers the phone when someone calls
into their headline. We'll follow our conversation with the round
table with actress and advocate Gabriella Union, a really, really
dear friend of mine and I'm so happy to have
on our show an expert on a gender based violence
prevention and response Lena Abi Rafi Essential Voices with Wilma
(36:55):
val Drama is produced by me M R Raquel, Alison Shano,
and Kevin Rotkowski, with production support from Associate producer Lillian Holman.
Executive Producers Wilmer val Drama, Adam Reynolds, Leo Clem, and
Aaron Hilliard. This episode was edited by m R. Riquel,
Sean Tracy and Justin Cho and features original music by
(37:17):
Will Risotti. Special thanks to last week's essential Voice, miss
Key Nor, to Black Visions, and to our thought leader
Ben Crump. Additional thanks to Darnell Strom and Cameron Mitchell.
This is a Clamor and w V Entertainment production in
partnership with I Heart Radio's Michael Dura podcast Network. For
more podcasts from I Heart, visit the I Heart Radio app,
(37:39):
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,
Hello, everyone. I'm Wilmer Valderrama and I'm m R. Riquel.
This is Essential Voices. Last week we spoke with miss
Key Nor, organizer, writer and co director of Black Visions
in Minneapolis. Speaking with miss Key begin an important conversation
that we wanted to continue to unpack this week with
civil rights lawyer Ben Crump. Ben Crump is one of
(00:23):
the foremost figures in our current social justice movement. He's
represented families in multiple high profile cases, including the families
of George Floyd, Brianna Taylor, and Amada are Brey. I
was so honored to have been on the show, and
there's so much we can learn from him. So let's
get to it. Our round table with Ben Crump starts now.
(00:46):
First of all, I just want to say how proud
I am to be speaking to you and O m R.
And I can testify that we've definitely been the front
road to see your show up for the community and
for people in this conversation. As we move into the
round tables, often times when we do man is we
try to visualize what is the world that we're trying
to build for, you know, and where are we heading
(01:07):
and how do we think about solutions, community based solutions.
I know that we've done a great job of creating
signals and broadcasting the messaging and most importantly the agenda
of some of the outcomes we need as communities, you know,
but we also try to visualize, you know, from a
community standpoint and from individuals like you and I, who
can you know, use their strengths to continue to create
a more thorough and more elaborate and efficient operation as
(01:30):
we move forward to that needle moving moment. I also
like to offer that, you know, this is a place
where we can inspire each other and really think about,
you know, how we move forward together as well. So
there'll be a plenty of opportunities in this conversation to
dive into that. But first and foremost, just thank you
for being here, Thank you for having me. I mean,
you know, just to kind of kick things off a
(01:51):
little bit. What were your reactions to Miss Gain? As
I listen to Miss I thought a lot about how
traumatized the community is there in Minneapolis because George Floyd happens,
and it's just literally shocks everybody and galvanized people in
Minneapolis and all across the world, literally the globe. People
(02:13):
were marching, saying, until we get justice for George Floyd,
none of us can breathe, but women as soon as
we in the trial, then they shoot and killed Dante right,
And you're like, my lord, how many times are you
gonna get the message that you don't have to shoot
first and ask questions later, or use excessive for us
(02:35):
because we are citizens too. Don't police us and protect
and serve everybody else? No, protect and serve us as well.
And then unbelievably, a mayor Luck is killed by Minneapolis
Police Department. And so I'm listening to MS. He's talking
about doing the frontline work and the mental care, and
(02:57):
I'm thinking they gotta be just exhausted going through the
cycle of trying to get people to believe, to say, hey,
we're gonna make the system better. Let's all work together.
And then Dante right a mere lot, and they're saying,
is it futless what we're doing, because it seems like
(03:18):
nothing is stopping the hashtags from being created. And before
George Floyd, there was Philando because still in the Twin
Lakes area, they were Mark Clark. I mean, it was
so many people of color being killed unjustly by law enforcement.
And so the thing I kept thinking when I listened
to Mr is this concept called racial battle fatigue. It's
(03:43):
almost like Dr Smith, professor from Utah, he created this
concept when you see this trauma unfold where a person
is killed a minority and nothing changes the kind of
psychological trauma it has on all the people in that
community that knew that person, not as a hashtag, not
(04:05):
as a cause, but as a fellow human being. And
it's almost like he said, you in war, you got
post traumatic stress disorder, but nobody's acknowledging in Minneapolis or
in cities across the country. And so that's what I thought.
I just felt like, man, even the people who are
trying to provide help are gonna need counsel, and not
(04:28):
just the families. We'll be right back after this break,
welcome back to essential voices. That was something that really
struck me from my conversation with miss Key. It was
the commitment that they were talking about at Black Visions
to providing stipends for self care in all of its forms,
be it acupuncture or massage, you know, towards self care
(04:50):
in this new way that folks are viewing it. And
I think that makes us positioned now in this moment
more than ever to know how to take care of
ourselves and in turn take care of our communities in
a way that we've never really done so before, And
so hearing this from them gave me a lot of hope.
But to bring this to our conversation today, Mr Crump,
in miss Key story, they point out something that I
thought a lot about throughout the last couple of years,
(05:12):
which is that throughout the years of the pandemic, it
seems like more and more folks have become familiar with
abolitionist work and abolitionist futures. I think this is in
part due to the dissemination of information that's occurred online
throughout the pandemic, especially in the aftermath of the murder
of George Floyd. So for you, Mr Crump, I have
kind of a two part question, which is, while the
(05:34):
movements towards abolition have always existed, how do you see
the relationship between the pandemic and these movements? And also,
in your opinion, has the pandemic amplified the work that
you're doing and moved the needle towards a more collective
or cohesive understanding of the abolitionist work that is still
yet to be done. Well, I think the answer is
(05:55):
to fold Brianna Taylor, Amadabrey and then George Floyd happening.
I believe at the height of the pandemic, everybody was
home to shut down. You couldn't do anything at all.
We were watching where our devices and television. And so
when you saw the Amador video, you saw the pictures
(06:18):
in the video after Brianna Taylor had been mutilated with
nine bullets and her body in her own apartment because
they executed this no not warrant in Louisville, Kentucky. And
then you know, just when we was getting everybody's attention
to say her name, you didn't had George Floyd comp
and say I can't breathe, you know twenty eight times. Well,
(06:41):
he kept his knee on his neck, and you thought
you were watching a Hollywood movie. He's certain he's gonna
take his knee off his neck. You know, this can't
be real. And he never took his knee off his neck.
And so the fact that we were in the midst
of a global pandemic that we had never seen before
or and we were all focused on our devices, I
(07:03):
think that made George Floyd reverberate across the world even faster,
even in a more prolific manner. And so I had
not left my house. I don't know about y'all. I
had left my house in about six to seven weeks
because the pandemic, and it was George Floyd being murdered
in the way he was murdered, tortured to death. That
(07:25):
finally got me to leave my house and go meet
with his family, because it was that traumatic to me
as affect tator somebody who just watched the video, and
it was deep because I think in that way, the
pandemic made people pay attention more. But then also it
was kind of hard organizing, as ms Ley said, because
(07:47):
it was a pandemic and people were afraid to get
the coronavirus, and so it was a very interesting dynamic,
to say the least. When Missy said, people made a
decision that police violence was more dangerous than the pandemic
to them, and they all came out and it was
beautiful women. I looked at the crowds across the country.
(08:10):
You had geographical diversity, you had aged diversity. I mean
you have old people, young people, all marching in units
and saying, we gotta get this right. I had never
been invited to speak to so many corporations then after
George Floyd. I have a nine year old daughter. Week
I tell about unity. When you put your fists together,
(08:33):
it's almost impossible to divide it. But when you hold
your hands separate, it's easy to break our fingers. And
so we have to come together. When I walk into
courtrooms or walk the rest, I always put my fists
in the air to symbolize that we are united, stronger together.
And so I hope that answered your question. Mr. I
(08:56):
think it was unique that nobody was protesting and too
much before George Floyd because of the pandemic. But after
that video here, we all came out of our houses
and said we just got to do something. Humanity requires
us to do something. You're so right. I mean, it's
like what ms Key said. The need to be together
(09:17):
and organized and be a community was stronger and outweighed
the fear of getting COVID in those moments. So thank you,
Mr Trump. That was really beautifully said. And Wilmer, do
you have anything to add? Yeah, no, I couldn't agree
with you more. And I think that there was a
moment in where we realized that was the proof of
concept that we've been waiting for over seven years, you know,
We've been waiting for all of our communities to feel
(09:40):
a part of the sentiment of the message, you know.
And I think when you look at how many cultures,
like you said, and you know, how many cultures were
united in one voice and broadcasted universal virtue of justice
and safety, and it was a really beautiful moment. And
I often think of times, you know, and I'm pretty
sure we'll dive into this a little bit more, but
how do you sustain that signal? How do you continue
(10:03):
to keep it alive? Considering that what we did was
break a mold and made it better, and then we
think about the deflating moments where it keeps happening over
and over again, you know. So in many ways, it
makes me think a lot about what you do, because
as the attorney for George Floyd's family, along with many
families who have lost low ones to police brutality, like
right now you are representing the family of a mayor
(10:24):
log can you tell us a bit more about your work,
and you know, kind of what gets lost in the
public conversation. It's so interesting to me because I think,
you know, there is a perception of what it takes
to do what your job as a title does, but
what you've done beyond this message and being available to
continue to broadcast that signal of the why you stand
(10:45):
up for these families. It's what's really survived through not
just the pandemic and the movement in the marches. It's
what's been heard loud and cleared. Now, thank you for that, Willmen.
I think, essentially I am a civil rights lawyer. At
my core, we do a lot of trial work for
other matters, but it's this calling. My mission in life,
I believe, is to go try to fight for people
(11:08):
who are marginalized, victimized, and disenfranchised, no matter what situation
they may find themselves in, to try to give them
a voice. My personal hero is Thurgood Marshall. He's my
north star. And you know, I think about the things
that I encountered, the obstacles, and you know it's not
a bit of roses. But we get death threats and
(11:31):
we get things from the enemies of equality, but it's
nothing like what Thurgood Marshall has to encounter. During his day,
people would say he's gonna take a case. All the
communities of color would get excited there against coming, there
against coming. But then the Cluculus Klan and the white
supremacist groups, they were getting ready for Third Good to
(11:52):
come to this negro from New York, as he was
often referred to when he would come across the South
and across America. And it's deep because I think about
how they would have to move from house to house
every night while he's in that town working on the case.
Same fans that I was in Minneapolis almost two months
working on George Floyd. I got to stay in the
(12:13):
comfort of my hotel row every day. They're Good new
that if he stayed more than one night any particular place,
the lynch mob was gonna come and get him and
kill him. But he was still show up the next
day in court, Mayor, and everybody's hostile. They mad saying,
(12:33):
how do you deal with it? And you know, what
do you do when you get these threats? And I said, well,
you know, you don't take them for granted, You take
them seriously. You report it to the FBI, and then
you show up the next day to let them know
that there's nothing they can do to make you afraid
for standing up our community and standing up for our children.
(12:54):
That there are some things you have to be willing
to die for. And so that's my mission to be
a person who's unapologetic and saying that I will stand
up for our children's future. I will speak up for
our children's future, and I will fight for our children's future.
They have an equal opportunity that life and liberty and
(13:16):
the pursuit of happiness like any of the citizens in America.
And so I go and I fight in courtrooms and
sometimes get in trouble. So if they ever put me
in jail, you don't let me pull in the night
over jail. Now, y'all come and get me. We got you,
We we got you. And appreciate those words beautifully said.
And it's beautiful to you know, hear ourselves in in
(13:37):
that sentiment, because in America, we are one, you know,
and specifically when we share, you know, our skin color,
you know, when we know that our skin color, for
the history of our contribution to this country has been
looked at as not equal to say the least. And
I really appreciate that. M R. It's so true what
you're saying, and I want to bring things back to
(13:59):
our central work or MSKY for a moment and ask you,
Mr Crump, from your perspective, we're rolled to local organizations
like Black Visions in Minneapolis play in supporting these movements
and in supporting the work that you're doing. Now. It's critical, Mr,
it is absolutely essential. And I've developed this model that
we have to fight in two courts, one in the
(14:21):
court of law and the other, which I think is
more influential, is in the court of public opinion. And
so we have to affect the hearts and minds of
the society and the community if we're gonna ever have
a chance of getting some semblance of accountability and justice
in the courtroom. And so I think it's critical that
(14:42):
we have people fighting in the court and the court.
And that's what the organizers, I call it freedom fighters.
That's what they do. You know, these freedom fighters, they
show up. They ain't got no healthcare benefits, they ain't
got no pensions, you know, they ain't got no hourly way,
but they show up because something has driven Then I'm
just saying we have to do something. Our solace is
(15:03):
betrayal that's awesome. I've been part of the cooler, like
a league of extraordinary individuals, right, Like, I feel like,
you know, for so many years of my life. I'm
going into seventeen years of activism myself, and where I
just kind of decided that, you know, public speaking and
most importantly, community engagement was an extension of my career.
So I've made mentors like you that I've learned so
(15:25):
much from, and not just in the words, but in
their actions. And what you're mentioning is so so incredibly
sobering because it reminds me of, you know, how many
generations have taken that spirit and kept the torch moving forward, right,
I mean, you think about how many different individuals and
of the many cultures that are actually gotten in the
game and made sure that you know, the torch never
goes out and that it continues to move forward. And
(15:47):
it makes me think been about so many things. And
you know, for me, a lot of the work that
I do is obviously within the Latino community and the
African American community. I do a lot of work with
our Native communities as well, And I think about two
sides of this question, and right, which is, how do
you see in the non black communities of colored coming
together to support this work. And in the same coin,
(16:08):
when you flip the coin, how do you feel that
your community can also help amplify the other communities that
are in the same fight. Because but there's so much
that we can learn from the movement and the multi
generations and decades and decades that the African American community
has been fighting for justice inequality and at the same
time workshopping and sharpening the tools as we continue to
(16:29):
fight together. Now right, yeah, now, Wilmer, that is the
crux of the matter. I think that is the key
there as coming together. It would be disingenuous for anybody
to say that if you hear somebody crying out because
they are being marginalized or disenfranchised, to not try to
(16:52):
answer the bail And so I've just hired two attorneys
who are of Latin descent and they are helping us
to try to identify how we can amplify a lot
of our Hispanic brothers and sisters who have been either
killed or terribly harm as a result of excessive force.
(17:13):
And I will say this to you all, You're gonna
hear the name of Michael Ortiz and down in the Hollywood,
Florida and near Miami. He was having a mental health crisis.
He was face down, start naked and handcuffs and broad daylight,
and the police officers shot him in the back and
(17:35):
paralyzed him. They are fighting us to keep that video
from being released to the public, but I think that
is gonna be the case. I won't say it's worse
than George Florida, but it's as bad as George Floyd.
And when a brother, Michael Ortiz, who is of Hispanic descent,
doesn't speak English, only speak Spanish, when that happens, I
(17:59):
think we all should rise up, just like we did
for George Floyd. And I'm gonna use everything in my power,
all my resources, all my whatever skills I have to
influence the media to say, Michael Ortisse, life matters. To
thank you for sharing this with us, Mr Crump. It's
important to remember intersectionality like you and Wilma are talking
(18:22):
about when understanding the work that's happening collectively across black
and brown communities. And I think we're sort of in
this moment in the conversation of thinking about as Wilmer
said towards the beginning of creating the world that we
want to get to. And I'm hearing a lot of
collaboration between different communities as part of the way that
we're going to get there, bolstering each other and showing
up together, being there on the front lines together. And
(18:44):
one thing we spoke about with Miskey was their charter
amendment in Minneapolis to replace a police department with the
Department of Public Safety, which unfortunately did not pass. But
in your mind, Mr Crump, as we keep working towards
abolitionist futures, what are the alternative ways to move forwards
in regard to policing. Yeah, I think you have to
just believe that in your heart that whatever the challenges are,
(19:07):
we can meet them together and overcome them. And the
only way we can survive this attack on our most
essential right is to come together and say no, no,
we have to stand together. If we are divided, they
will take out democracy from us. Oh amen to that.
And furthermore, you know that whatever leadership gets the desk,
(19:31):
you know, it makes the decisions and signs off from
positions and rules and laws. You know in new ways
of engaging the community. You know, it also really does
directly affects both of us, both of our communities, and
like I said, we're in the same neighborhood. So if
those decisions are made upon us and onto us, you know,
and for us, then we're gonna be in a lot
of trouble because there will be no comprehension or decisions
(19:54):
being made by people that understand what he's like to
live in the same hip code. And that's major. I
appreciate you offering that. I know there's a lot of
rallying up going on specifically with this voting because that
the fracturing of our majorities, you know, speaking out loud
and I'm talking majorities as African Americans and Latinos are
becoming the majority. And some of these voting blogs and
it's important that they are not heard, but they are
(20:16):
part of the tailoring right, the making of our country.
We're putting the breaks down ourselves too, you know, so
that's super important. I appreciate your offering that and reminding
us of continuing get behind that, because you're right, there's
a lot of work coming up. We had a lot
of work cut off for ourselves. In the next chapter
of the voting conversation, we'll be right back after this break,
(20:36):
Welcome back to essential voices as it relates to this
whole concept of defunding the police. I'm a trial lawyer,
and so I understand how you framing there. Tip If
you're framing a certain way, then you can predict what's
going to happen. So you always have to be very
careful how you frame things. I know if we frame
(21:00):
it a different way where it's inviting more people to
the table, more stakeholders, that we can be successful in
achieving their objectives. What do I mean? I tend to
think instead of saying defund the police, that I know
will polarize completely one have person. No matter how pure
our intentions may be, you have to frame it or
(21:24):
characterize it as saying, how can we reimagine public safety?
Because now you have invited people to come to the
table and say, let's see how we can reimagine this
thing called public safety. And we all want safety, and
so who can be against safety? And so that's something
(21:44):
where you it's an invitation, it's an olive branch versus
aligne in the sand. And then you talk about the public, Well,
everybody wants their family to be safe, and so you
think about your family is part of the public. So
you said, I can we reimagine entity that keeps all
of us safe. Everybody is safe where the police officers
(22:07):
can get home to their families and loved ones, but
also our young people of color can get home to
their families and loved ones as well. Let's talk about
that there. Does that mean us trying to institute more
community policing where you got police who actually know the
people who they're supposed to be protecting and servants, so
(22:29):
there's not this veil of ignorance when they see a
little black or brown person running away from them and
they say, I feel them and shoot them in the back,
versus no, no, that's Randy or that's whoever running away
and I know them, so I don't shoot first and
ask questions later. Or how can we incentivize police to
(22:51):
live in the communities, whether you say we're gonna provide
a stipend and some of this big police budget to
have police who live in the commun or start recruiting
from inside the community people that want to be part
of the solution to public safety. And we should always
keep framing it public safety that way. It invites everybody
(23:12):
to the table, and you know, having with all these
mental health crisis and parallel rate, we need to have
social workers working with police departments as well, you know,
all these different things we need to do to try
to come up with the solution to say, how can
we prevent so many hashtags that keep happening? And so
(23:34):
that's how I choose to tackle that issue, and we
inherited a lot of that pain. You know, a lot
of that pain comes from multigenerationals and it's encoding as
a blueprint of the how to deal with when you're
presented with ex or exhibit exhibit, you know, and you
react very much like a tradition, and it's a tough
thing to see. This may be a controversial question, but
(23:57):
the question is based on all the work we've done,
how strong and how global our signals have become, how
small the world has also become things to the same
platform that you described earlier, which is technology that I
was actually united in odd in different categories in ways
that we never thought we would be connected or related
to one another. Run are things getting a little better?
(24:20):
Do we feel like we're seeing a little bit of
that sunrise at the end of that horizon? You know,
we've been getting up early, very every day, you know
what I mean, We're trying to get that sun right.
So you know, I wonder if there is a little
bit of that. And from your perspective from where you sit,
do you see a shift, you see a paradigm a
little bit, you see that there is this promise. Yeah,
(24:41):
and Wilmer, I think, as we come to the Trademar
Martin tenure observation, we're gonna sit all over the media
trade Bond more and ten years later, how far has
America calm and achieving equality and justice fall? How far
have we come in our pursuit for racial justice? And
(25:02):
I think that we've seen some things in recent months
that show us we're making progress. When you think about
the conviction, and I think this is part of Treybond
Martin's legacy, that you had the conviction of officer Derek
Schovin for killing George Floyd keeping his knee on his
neck for nine minutes and twenty nine seconds. I think
(25:24):
that's part of Trey Bond's legacy because he raised the
consciousness level in America. He made more awareness of these matters.
And then you saw the white policewoman Kimp Potter get
convicted for killing Dante, right. You know, she said she
went to pull her table, but she pulled a gun
and shot him in the chest. And you think bad
(25:45):
to Oscar Grant, you know. And Oakland, California, the subway station,
the basis of the movie Fute Bill Station. When we
first met Michael B. Jordan's and so forth, it was
kind of deep because you saw that officer gotta slap
on the rear, spent less than a year in jail,
but now we see we're making progress. When the officers
(26:06):
used the same excuse and no, by the way, that's
the excuse they're gonna use on that Michael Ortiz case.
I was telling you about that, he said, well, I
meant the pure of my days, and even though they
had already tasted them twice before, and then certainly with
Ahmared Arbley, where this Lynch mob got convicted of lending
this young African American man who was jogging, and so
(26:28):
they left them for joggon while black. Not in nineteen
for the nineteen fifty, but in two thousand twenty, and
I would day m j they left this year man.
So we can't talk about you know, back those days,
no and our day this happened and broad daylight and
on TV, and they were free for seven to three days.
They slept in their own bed and women that blew
(26:51):
my mind, just like they had video. But they still
took a white man who lefts this young black man's
word that oh where he attacked this's and everything. And
they saw this video where they chased him for almost
five minutes while he ran for his life. And so
when I think about those things, because that was eleven
(27:12):
white people and one black person on the jury in
the deep south of Georgia, and they came back despite
all the dog whispered. I don't know if y'all followed
that trial where they tried to say, you know, his
Ashley legs and his feet with dirty like he was
a runaway slave and all this craziness, but the jury
(27:33):
saw through that and they convicted that lynch mob. And
so what it tells me is that we are making progress.
We're absolutely making progress, but we have to remember it's
a journey to justice. Like any journey, sometimes you take
two three steps forward and then take a step back.
But what we have to remember on this journey we
(27:54):
just got to keep our eyes on the prize. Brother,
keep my eyes on the prize. That's so incredibly well put.
I mean, we're coming at a crossroads right where we
go what do we broadcast? We broadcast the outcomes, the solutions, right,
the uplifting moments, or do we continue to broadcast the
terror right? And I think it's a combination, right, because
(28:14):
the point is that it's important for our communities to
understand the gravity that we carry on our shoulders. It's
also important to share those uplifting moments when actually it
does work, where we actually did it right to do that.
And that's why I asked you that controversial question because
and I say air quotes when I say controversial, because
(28:36):
it seems to me like most of the shows that
I listened to, most of the news that we see there,
they're broadcasting the happening, not the outcomes, right, And I
think it's important to see what happens when when you
do your work and it works, you know, and what
that does for society and what and what does that
to community? And what fire does it light up? What ignites,
(28:57):
what energy re energizes the movement? And I think it's
as important it is to raise awareness for injustice. It's
also important to raise awareness. But when it works, you know,
because I think that we got to get behind your movement.
We gotta get behind what you do. And I know
we've come a long way, you know, in the last
couple of years. There's you know, there's obviously clear that
(29:18):
we have a lot of work to do, you know,
but it specifically and living in the society that we
all feel super proud to go home and to live
in this country that gives us the opportunity to be
anything that we want to be. And in most cases,
people of color in the last couple of decades have
proven that they can be anything they want, including the
President of the United States, right. I mean when you
(29:38):
look at the President Obama, we said, oh, we're in America.
We're officially in America, you know, And and I love
that sentiment in your mind. What are some actionable steps
that you know they can taken to continue to embrace
progressing forward, you know, and hopefully looking at that world
that we see, you know, as ours and as the
one that we want to call home. Yeah, and you
(30:00):
make such an important point that we have to look
at the momentum. We can't just always talk about how
bad it is, and that makes people not feel inspired.
And man, the last sixty months, we should feel really
inspired because we're saying historical verdicts that we never saw
(30:21):
before happened. And we're not saying we forget the struggle, because,
as the great Frederick Douglas Negro abolitionists said, without struggle,
there can be no progress. So we should never shy
away from the struggle. If we're in the struggle, that
means we're making progress. But the two things I think,
in particular women that really gives me hope is the
(30:44):
fact that in the aftermath of all of this stuff,
we saw great progress being made over five hundred cities.
After George Floyd outlawed and abolished the your goal, they said,
our police department, you can't do that anymore. We don't
want you choking nobody putting your knee on they net.
(31:05):
The people have spoken, We heard them, and so we're
gonna abolish the chokehole. And then you saw after Brianna Taylor,
even though we got work to do in Minneapolis, there
were three states and over a hundred cities that abolished
no knock warrants that were being disproportionately executed against black
(31:26):
and brown families and so in violation of the Fourth
Amendment against unreasonable searches and seizures. I mean, it's crazy
when you think about the police bust in your house
at this time of day when most Americans are enjoying
their rights to the Second Amendment, and they got a
good and you didn't announce themselves. Man, it's a danger
for police and a danger for the citizens. And so
(31:49):
after Brianna Taylor, we saw a lot of progress there,
and then after mild Opery, Georgia was only one of
three states left into the United States of America where
they didn't have a state hate crime law that says
if you kill somebody or you injure somebody motivated by race,
then we can make enhancement on the punishment. That makes progress. Brother,
(32:12):
Now we're down to two states, you know. So there's
a lot of progress being made, and a lot of
this happens because of the activists, the people in the
community saying our silence is betrayal and we have to
speak up. And so while I'm fighting in the court
with many talented and great lawyers, it's so helpful when
(32:33):
we have your voice. Well, I mean think about your influence, brother,
I mean, you adored all over the world. And so
when you say I would use my voice to give
a voice to people that might not otherwise get a voice,
and it makes all the difference in the world. Thank
you for those words. I take it too hard because
I was born in Miami and I was raised in Venezuela.
(32:55):
When they came back to the United States, you know,
I was a citizen that was blessed to be a citizen.
Or when they can back to the United States, you know,
one of the ways that I felt that I could
pay it forward was ultimately to just get involved and understand,
you know, what do we need? Where can I show up?
And I say this as kind of an example and
an inspiration in the beacon of what you're saying. Then,
because I think our listeners and and everyone the audiences,
(33:18):
that the fans out there, the people that support these conversations,
you know, also have a strength that they haven't necessarily
embraced or cultivated. You know, they live in a neighborhood
that may share the same or may not share the
same opinion. This simple acts of conversations of kindness in
which you invite the disagreement. We have to allow ourselves
(33:39):
to disagree to find where we can walk together so
we can truly get to where we gotta go. And
I think that that's ultimately I mean, and you do
it beautifully. You try to find the common ground so
you can get these outcomes. You can get these results
that iconically have changed so much in history. And I
think about the power that our communities have to find
that conversation that these arms most invites all of them
(34:01):
to really get involved, and how do we walk together?
And I'm just so blessed and Ben, Honestly, I've said
this to our teams before and specifically back when we
used to do work at Hardness. We're just so blessed
to have you driving. And we're so happy when you
hear that you're putting on the jersey and you're getting
in the game, you know, because we understand it's about
to be a journey. And I'm just so proud and
so grateful that way with a grace us with your
(34:23):
voice here on essential voices, you have quite a few
fights coming ahead of you, and any thoughts and then
maybe how the community can support the work you're doing.
I will say this, and I'll try to say as
briefly as I can, because it really is what I
believe in my heart, my personal hero. Third good Marshall
saying that the two hundred year celebration of the signing
(34:45):
of the Declaration of Independence, that the basis of the
United States Constitution is simply this. He said that a
black baby going to a black mother, the most uneducated
Black mother, the most inarticulate Black mother, the most impoverished
Black mother, has the same exact rights as a white
(35:10):
baby born to a white mother, the most educated white mother,
the most articulate white mother, the most affluent white mother,
just by virtue of that baby drawing his first breath
as an American citizen. Now, he said, I know that's
not the case in America today, but I challenge anybody
(35:32):
to say that's not a goal we're fighting for. I
challenge anybody to say that's not what makes America the
great beacon of hope and justice for all the world
to marvel. And so when people want to help, all
they have to do is use their voice, whatever influence
(35:53):
they have. When they see an injustice, don't look away,
speak truth to power. I love Ben's metaphor about the
close fist versus the open hand, and how we are
always so much more powerful when we come together. We
are living in such a historical moment, and I'm truly
(36:13):
hopeful that the momentum will continue and we will start
to see some real change. It was truly an honor
to be in conversation with both Miss Key and Mr
Crump to find out more ways that the community can
continue showing up to end police brutality. Next week, please
join us as we speak to so lunch Ramkisson, a
survivor support specialist who works as part of a sexualis
(36:35):
Soul response team and answers the phone when someone calls
into their headline. We'll follow our conversation with the round
table with actress and advocate Gabriella Union, a really, really
dear friend of mine and I'm so happy to have
on our show an expert on a gender based violence
prevention and response Lena Abi Rafi Essential Voices with Wilma
(36:55):
val Drama is produced by me M R Raquel, Alison Shano,
and Kevin Rotkowski, with production support from Associate producer Lillian Holman.
Executive Producers Wilmer val Drama, Adam Reynolds, Leo Clem, and
Aaron Hilliard. This episode was edited by m R. Riquel,
Sean Tracy and Justin Cho and features original music by
(37:17):
Will Risotti. Special thanks to last week's essential Voice, miss
Key Nor, to Black Visions, and to our thought leader
Ben Crump. Additional thanks to Darnell Strom and Cameron Mitchell.
This is a Clamor and w V Entertainment production in
partnership with I Heart Radio's Michael Dura podcast Network. For
more podcasts from I Heart, visit the I Heart Radio app,
(37:39):
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,
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