Fighting Fires For California

California’s fire seasons have become more like year-round fire years. For firefighters on the frontlines, safety is the number one priority when wildfires erupt. When these fires strike, there’s often a shortage of civilian firefighters to stop the spread. California has a long history of using incarcerated labor to supplement industries in need of additional assistance- including firefighting. For Gabriel Perez, a formerly incarcerated firefighter, his passion to serve his community by protecting it from fires began while he was incarcerated, and continues every day while he works to keep his community fire safe, even during a pandemic. Roundtable guests: Brandon Smith, co-founder of the Forestry and Fire Recruitment Program, and Jaime Lowe, author of Breathing Fire: Female Inmate Firefighters on the Front Lines of California's Wildfires.

Learn more about FFRP: https://www.forestryfirerp.org/  

Learn more about Breathing Fire: https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374116187/breathingfire 

Episode Transcript: https://app.trint.com/public/3627988c-df1f-4c16-8705-2eeb7ee757db

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello everyone in Wilma ald Rama and I'm m r Riquel.
This is essential voices. I remember one time on the
show I asked you how you were, and you were like,
the weather has been so nice here in Oakland. It's
been raining and there's grass. You were so happy about
the green grass. But I totally understood. What do you mean,

(00:23):
because rain and therefore grass is rare here in California.
What's happening up in Bay right now? It's funny you
say that because I was just out at a hiking
spot in the Oakland Berkeley Hills and I was thinking
that even though the hills look green ish, they're definitely
starting to look a little drier every day and we
could definitely use some more rain. On top of that,

(00:44):
it was just a little while back when we had
smoky air after the devastating Big surfire. Not to mention
that fire season was one of the worst on record
in the baits like, we went from an awful fire season,
too extreme rains, and now spring. It's hard to catch up.
But I can't even imagine dealing with all of this
if I were a firefighter. Did you just say firefighter? Like,

(01:09):
get out of my head? I'm are you know, I
guess you're reading my mind. But no, seriously, I can't
believe you just went there, because this week we're focusing
on firefighting, doing the pandemic, doing some of California's worst
fire seasons to date. But you but you know, we
we like to shake things up here and essential voices.
So while we are most definitely speaking with the badass

(01:30):
firefighter today, we had the true owner of speaking to
a particular firefighter whose experienced this work from multiple perspectives
and from within multiple places, and who's emerged from the
experiences with serving and his community in his heart. That's
absolutely right. When we were putting this episode together, we

(01:51):
recognize that although most California residents are affected by the
weeks of smoke hanging in the air and for some
the brutal loss of family homes to rampant fires, the
history behind who's fighting fires on the front lines and
why this labor is called upon can be slightly murky.
So we wanted to, in a small way, help uncover

(02:12):
some of California's sketchy er infrastructure by highlighting a firefighter today, Gabriel,
who was formerly incarcerated and is an expertly trained firefighter.
Gabriel was working every day within the California Fire camps
and he's no longer incarcerated, and we had the honor
of speaking to him to hear what his experience was
like during his firefighting career while he was incarcerated and

(02:32):
how his firefighting career has continued to develop now that
he's no longer incarcerated. Gabriel has also gone through an
incredible program called the Forestry and Fire Recruitment Program which
supports formerly incarcerated firefighters in a multitude of ways, which
will have the opportunity to hear more about in our
roundtable conversation. Thank you, Mr. And that's right. So, after
our conversation with Garriel, will have a roundtable discussion with

(02:55):
authored and journalist Jammie Lowe, who wrote the book Breathing Fire,
which documents the stories of firefighters on the front lines
who are women and who are incarcerated, along with Brandon Smith,
who is the founder of the Forestry and Fire Recruitment
Program which provides support to formally incarcerated firefighters along with

(03:16):
those currently working in the California fire camps. We have
some amazing stories coming up for you we most certainly do.
So let's get it. Gabriel. Story starts right now. Hi.
My name is Gabriel Prez. I'm calling it from Sanbradino, California,
and I'm a firefighter. Gabriel, thank you so much for
being here with us today. I'm really excited for this

(03:38):
conversation and so to get started, tell me about who
you are and what you do while I do, uh, firefighting,
and I'm trying to advance my career and get up
next levels. You know, I just basically just got out
of prison, just trying to get on the right path,
stay on the right path, and try to serve my

(03:59):
community and be an asset and learn as much as
I could while i'm here. M that's amazing. And you
just mentioned that you're a firefighter and that also you
were incarcerated. So is firefighting something that you learned to
do while you were incarcerated. Absolutely. I never ever thought
that I would be a firefighter. I never imagined it,

(04:20):
but because of the things that happened in prison, I
got sent to fire camp and as I was there
and started picking up the work aspect of it and
the physical capabilities of it. It's something that I learned
to enjoy and as I got more into it, it
became a passion of minds and it's something that um,
I hope to do for a long time, as long
as I'm able to m That's so awesome that you

(04:41):
learned to enjoy the work and that you became passionate
about it too. So can you describe what the camps
are and why they exist within the prison industrial complex
and maybe also what drives the passion that you have
for firefighting? So I feel like the camps is something
that you have to earn while you're in pretty him.
It comes along with with good behavior, and as your

(05:03):
levels dropped, then you're able to take part in the camp.
And it's The camp I was at was very physical.
It was a lot of physical activity, so it was
rough kind of when I first got there, I had
a hard time keeping up with it. As I continue
to get better, getting better shape, I started to like it.
And I've seen a lot of guys that were coming
in in poor shape getting in good shape and then

(05:24):
started to enjoy it also. But I felt like that's
all about perspective, you know. I could have went there
and like, man, I hate this. I don't ever want
to do this again in my life. I can't wait
to get out or I can learn from it and
make something of it and make a career out of it.
And then that turned into something like, Man, I really
enjoy this. I feel like it's more of a calling,

(05:46):
you know, Like I feel like I was placed there.
It was part of my purpose in life, you know,
And I'm trying to as far as that goes, hopefully
to see what it leads to, you know, because a
lot of other doors opened up as well, you know,
for me being there, So I don't look at it
as a bad thing at all. I feel very fortunate
and blessed to be able to take part in that. Wow, Gabriel,

(06:08):
thank you so much for giving me a deeper understanding
of a little bit of your journey within the fire camps.
I can really see why you feel like this work
is a calling. And you said that getting sent to
the fire camps is kind of like a reward for
good behavior. Do folks have a choice about whether or
not they go to the fire camps? You kind of do.

(06:29):
When they first told me that I was gonna be
going there, I didn't want to go at all, you know,
I was comfortable where I was at, and I just
wanted to do the rest of my time. But it
was a reward because I still had five years left
on my sentence. I wasn't supposed to be home to
two four, you know, because of me going there and
knocked off a lot of years off my sentence. So

(06:49):
I was comfortable while I was at, but I'm even
better now, So it kind of was a sacrifice, you know,
that I had to make. M M. That's a beautiful perspective.
And you know, I imagine that you show up in
the camps having never thought that you'd ever be a firefighter, right,
but that even as a beginner, you definitely want to
make sure that you take all of the safety precautions

(07:10):
and know exactly what you're doing, because then all of
a sudden you're tasked with being out on the front lines.
So how did the camps prepare you were training you
for your firefighting duties. So you take like a two
week course before you get to your actual camp, and um,
you learn your basic S one ninety your basic introduction
to fire behavior, and then we watch a lot of

(07:32):
videos about like tragedy stories, you know, to see like man,
this is it's real out there. You know, it's not
just no game out there. People have lost their lives
out there, So you learn from unfortunate situations that happen,
and you gotta have your head on a swivel. They say, like,
I always got to have your situational awareness of because
we've been close to the fire where the fires coming

(07:53):
towards us, we had to run. You know, that's all
really was. So I mean, I'll take it like kind
of seriously, and I still take seriously to this day,
you know, and you never stop learning out there, like
it's always something more to learn, always something more to
get better at. Yeah, it sounds like there's a lot
of information you have to make sure you're paying attention
to to stay safe out there. So how does the

(08:14):
training that you received inside the camps compared to training
that you've gone through now that you're no longer incarcerated,
you know, are their similarities? Are there differences? And is
there any additional training you've received recently or that you'd
like to receive. So, yeah, out there, you're just a tool.
The captain does all the thinking and we're just expected

(08:34):
to do the work. You know, out here, it's a
little more different. We got to actually think individually for
ourselves for our team. You know, I was on the
Caldor fire, which was a pretty big fire up north.
Being out there place with more responsibility on myself, I
had to start thinking like, hold on, now, I gotta
start looking around, watch for certain things that I've been listening.

(08:56):
But I never had to actually think for myself as
far as being and cancel. It's a more responsibility. Also,
there's more we can do out here, Like I have
a phone where I could google stuff now, you know,
if I want to watch all these videos or go
onto the websites that teach the stuff and take courses,
I'm able to know and get some more experience. You know,

(09:17):
I've received some medical training, and I'll help to advance that.
I want to get my e m T next and
then see where I go after that, because that will
help me be a more service to my community. That's beautiful,
and it sounds like you kind of transition from following
what the captain was teaching you to getting more comfortable
with the work. I'm really making decisions for yourself, which

(09:38):
is amazing, and it's great that you know that you
want to pursue your E M T training next And
given that you've been through lots of training already, both
while incarcerated and now that you're no longer incarcerated, what's
the typical day like for you in your current position?
For me right now, I work for a fuels reduction crew,
So basically, right now, what we do we just create

(10:00):
defensible space for homes to keep them fire safe. We
go out every day and we scout properties that need
um that defensible space, and when we're cutting trees down,
we're cleaning up the yard. You know. Also volunteer for
a station up north and there where I got a
little bit more station experience to where we're just basically
doing the typical stuff you see, you know, as far

(10:24):
as like writing the engines, going to medical calls, stuff
like that. And I'm currently taking an academy to where
I'll be able to learn like the structure part of firefighting,
so I could do that next season. That's awesome, and
folks are fortunate that you're out there keeping their houses safe.
And it sounds like since you're still actively pursuing other

(10:45):
kinds of training, like you mentioned, I'm wondering if you
have any mentors or team members who have shaped your
experience throughout your training. I think I took a little
bit from every person out there, every person when I
first started this journey. I've seen a lot of great
qualit it is, and a lot of the older dudes
are placed in charge and coming from like a background
where I had I don't care attitude, so now actually caring.

(11:10):
So now I'm just like trying to pick stuff up,
learning from everybody, trying to learn as much as I
can and be better. You know, what do you think
changed from having that I don't care attitude that you
mentioned to the attitude that you currently have, transitioning into
a I really care a lot attitude. I know. Consequences
is a big part of it. You know. I didn't

(11:32):
like being in prison. I hated it, you know, being
away from my family and just being told what to do.
You know, that's all it was. It's just you're not
able to do what you want to do when you
want to do it. You know, you're always told what
to do, when to do it, how to do it.
And I didn't want to spend the rest of my
life in prison. So I started to like really get

(11:54):
in touch with myself and see who I really was
and what I really wanted to do in life. And
when I made my decision to start caring, I didn't
know like, Okay, yeah I care now, But where do
I start? What do I do? You know? So? I
mean I just started taking classes and that put me
in a place where I was around individuals that had
purpose with their life, and I just started learning off them.

(12:17):
And then they got me to firefighting, where I'm around
individuals that love what they do. And that's where I'm
around now, you know. I mean, I'm I'm meeting you guys,
and this is just more people, you know, to just
learn from it and expand my reality with you know, absolutely,
it sounds like you've been doing a lot of work
on yourself to get more and more in touch with yourself,

(12:37):
and that's really inspiring. Part of doing that work is
your clear commitment to continuing your growth as a firefighter
now that you're no longer incarcerated. And what made you
want to continue working as a firefighter once you got
out of prison. I didn't have nothing else, you know.
I went in with basically nothing, and it's something that
I invested a year a year in and I was like,

(12:58):
you know what, let me put that year of all
this hard work that I did out here and let
me put it to use, you know. And the opportunity
was there when I got out thanks to the program
I got into and things that started a lining, and
that's where I basically figured, like, let me just continue
to grow and let me just continue to learn and
try to uh make some out of it, you know,

(13:20):
mm hmm, yeah, definitely. And you just mentioned a program
you went through. Is that the Forestry and Fire Recruitment Program? Yes?
Can you tell me a bit more about what the
program is. It's basically for individuals who were incarcerated that
got out and I want to get into the fire service.
At that time, it was a lot harder for individuals

(13:41):
to do that. There wasn't that many opportunities. And this
provided opportunity for myself and others who who got into
the fire service. And we're out there actually working on
fires now, and there's a lot of great dudes in
there that been the same shoes that I was in
and that came out and had that same goal that's
ain't passion and made it happen. That's like I said,

(14:02):
I put me around a lot of great individuals and
we all just learned from each other and made it happen,
you know. Yeah, wow, thanks for sharing a little bit
about what they provide, and it's so awesome to learn
about their program. Thank you. And something that we haven't
really gotten into yet is the pandemic. And I'm wondering
how things in your personal life and with your work

(14:24):
life changed with the pandemic. It was kind of like
dreadful being encounter and incarcerated because visits were totally shut down,
you know. So I think I went like almost a
year without seeing my wife, and that's coming from us
almost seeing each other every week and she would go
visit me, you know. So that's something that was kind
of hard. You know. All we knew is what we've

(14:45):
seen on the news and well our families told us
over the phones, you know. So we just wanted it
to be over already so we could get back to
the normalcy that we knew, which were visits and all
that stuff. And we were still expected to go out
there and and give our best fighting fire, you know.
But you need your family time also, you know. I
think that's a part of your fulfillment in life. But

(15:08):
I got through it, and I know a lot of
them do as we all. We all got through it together,
you know. Yeah, it just makes so much sense that
in your heart you'd be focusing on your family during
the pandemic, especially given that you couldn't see them. I'm
so glad that you're able to all be together now,
and I'm wondering if you can share with me what
the working conditions were like this summer while you were

(15:29):
out on the front lines fighting fires during the pandemic.
With the heavy impact that this past fire season had
in California, it was bad. How to push yourself and
be strong? You know? Every every person out there has
a will, you know, and I think they push yourselves.
And that's why take my hat off to everybody out there.

(15:49):
You know, they work hard. They do it for you know,
for California. M Wow, that's that's a really powerful statement.
They do it for calif Mornia. It makes me wonder
what California is doing for you all out on the
front lines. It sounds like you take a lot of
pride in your work, and I'm wondering if you can
describe a moment from when you've been out firefighting that

(16:12):
you're particularly proud of, I think just not giving up
despite the obstacles that I had, just pushing through them.
You know, there was times I did want to give up.
I did want to just like man, let me just
look for another career, let me just look for something
else to do. And it's a reward and feeling out
just knowing that I could look back and be like Man,
I remember I wanted to give up that day. I

(16:33):
remember I was pretty much done, you know, and that
just builds up my little strength for the next opsacle
that comes, because I know what I've got through already
and I'm gonna just keep pushing through whatever else comes
my way. You know. M that's beautiful that you're committed
to sticking with this work and and being of service
to your community. Part of that commitment is also coming

(16:53):
on the show today and sharing your story. So why
for you is it important to share your story. I mean,
there's a lot of different reasons, but I just want
people to know that there is light at the end
of the tunnel. You know, despite whatever your background is,
anybody with the same background as me, or anybody that's
just been through stuff. You know that just to not

(17:14):
give up in life and just keep pushing and keep learning,
keep trying, you know, keep persevering. It's always don't get better,
you know, absolutely, And what messages would you like to
leave for future firefighters, especially ones who've been incarcerated and
working in the fire camps like you did? And maybe
as a follow up to that, what message would you

(17:35):
like to leave to your younger self if you could, Well,
for the guys that were in camp that I knew
that probably wanted to do this but they didn't know how.
There is a way And if I can lend it
helping hand or or some guidance, you know, I'm more
than happy to do it, and not only myself, also
know my superiors are more than happy to do it also.

(17:56):
It's just like a community, you know, helping each other out,
trying to get better and in turn help everybody else.
Ou Uh, to my younger self, I would just tell
him like, like, man, what were you thinking? You know? Uh?
But honestly glad where I'm at today. I know sometimes
I don't want to be uh regretful, you know for

(18:17):
some of the bad things I've done, But I am remorseful,
but I know that I am where I'm I'm today
and I'm happy, and I know this ain't the end
of the story for me. You know, all I could
do is make better decisions now and make a better
future for myself, my family, and hopefully the community. We

(18:38):
as Californians are lucky to have someone like Gariel out
on the front lines. He cares that so deeply for
his work, and it's beyond absurd that he could have
been denied these opportunities just because he was incarcerated. Not
only does Gabriel have the skills from his time working
in the fire camps, but he understands the power of
what he does. It's quite aspiring that he's so clearly

(19:01):
found his calling, and like so many of our essential workers,
it is a calling to serve others. We will continue
celebrating and supporting the firefighters rather than preventing them from
serving our communities. When we get back from the break,
we'll have a round table conversation with Jamie Low and
Brandon Smith. Jamie and Brandon, thank you so much for

(19:28):
being here with us on Essential Voices today. It's a
true honor to be chatting with you both, and I'm
really really looking forward to diving into gabriel story and
hearing your thoughts. So to kick us off, Brandon, what
are your initial reactions to what Gabriel shared with us? So,
I when I when I listened to Gabriel, I feel hope,

(19:51):
I feel excitement, I feel more of a possibility. A
lot of folks think that formerly incarcerated people who don't
deserve to do this work shouldn't do this work. And
I think just listening to Gabriel right now just proves
that formally incarcerated people deserve the opportunity to go do
this work, and people are in it for quote unquote

(20:12):
like the right reasons. You know. He speaks about how
he wants to give back to the community, he speaks
on how he wants to help bring more people into
the fold, and he speaks about how he's going to
help like himself and his family. That's what I'm talking about,
That's what we're talking about. There is a solution to
our challenges, and Gabriel is one of them. Really beautifully

(20:33):
said Brandon, and I totally agree. I was really moved
by Gabriel's heart of service to his community, which this
has been a beautiful common theme that we've seen in
the essential voices we've spoken to this season. Gabriel shares
his heart of service and that spirit, so it was
really special for me to see this thread continue through
his story. Thanks Brendan and Jamie. What about you? What

(20:55):
are your initial thoughts? Oh? Man, that's so many and
a shill thoughts. It was really moving to hear him
talk first off, but I think listening to him talk
about wanting to get an e MT triggered, you know,
my feelings of how frustrating it is that it's not
easier for formerly incarcerated firefighters and that there are even

(21:17):
with legislation paths, that there are real barriers. And I'm
heartened by his optimism, but I also you know, I
feel I feel like um frustrated on behalf of his
future self, knowing like what a lot of people have
been going through with an which is the bill. I

(21:42):
think that you know, when he said there was one
phrase that I wrote down because it struck me that
he said that they do it for California. That is
so meaningful to me because I feel like the next
level is saying, which is that California is not doing

(22:02):
it for them, that there's like this lack of reciprocation
and acknowledgement. And it's not even individual Californias, because the
women that I interviewed for the book all spoke to
people who would put up signs that were thanking them
for what they were doing for saving their homes, and

(22:23):
that that meant so much to them every time they
saw them. But that there are you know, the fact
that formerly incarcerated firefighters have such a hard time finding
work in the field on the very base level is problematic,
but then on a broader level, just that there's so

(22:44):
little support on re entry for everyone who's formerly incarcerated,
and that sort of I don't know, it made me
feel like it was one of the reasons I was
so interested in writing about the programs is that there
is this deep pride and what the crews are doing
who are incarcerated, which is that they are doing it

(23:06):
to protect the state, but that also there isn't enough
that the state is giving them back. What you're saying
was something that really struck me as well from my
conversation with Gabriel about him and his fellow firefighting comrades
doing it for California, which begged that question that you're
bringing up about how there isn't enough that the state

(23:27):
is giving back to incarcerated laborers. Could you expand a
bit on this complicated history, particularly California's relationship to incarcerated labor.
How did this relationship begin and how does the state
rely on incarcerated firefighters? Sure? Um, I mean I would
refer everyone to Lilian Hernando's book City of Inmates, which
is one of the best books written about kind of

(23:50):
the building of the state and how it really utilized incarceration,
and that people were essentially jailed on vagrancy laws and
then auctioned off to plow fields to work to build roads.
Sincet Boulevard was laid that way. The pc H was
laid with incarcerated people from San Quentin, essentially work that

(24:13):
was super dangerous and more dangerous than what a lot
of crew like people who were in very very strong
unions were unwilling to do. In nineteen forty six, when
a lot of men were shipped off to World War Two,
the camps, the fire camps were took over what the
road crews, the areas that the road crews were living,

(24:36):
and they became responsible for like being wildlif firefighters for
the state, and the first Governor Brown essentially thought it
was so effective that he, I think, how this at
the time ideal vision of it as a rehabilitation and
that it was a way for having an incarceration method,

(24:59):
that it involved being outside and having work that was
meaningful was maybe what he was thinking. And so from
forty six on, you know, there were thousands of people
their juvenile camps still and they worked the lines along
with cal Fire, municipal cruise for street cruise, and they've

(25:23):
been out there saving the state from fire and as
mega fires have taken over and as our climate catastrophe
has gotten worse, they're on the front lines, you know,
risking their lives. Thanks so much for providing that context,
and it really goes to show that it's a system
that has failed, which prevents or does not guarantee work

(25:45):
to incarcerated folks, keeping families and communities safe from wildfires
upon reentry. After everything they've dedicated to California through their service, Brandon,
anything to add their Yeah, thank you for that, Jamie,
because I think a lot of people don't understand where
that comes from. First and foremost, let me say this,
we as Americans have a problem utilizing incarcerated people as

(26:09):
laborers period, and it goes back. You know, there's always
a lot of conversation, is the slavery YadA, YadA YadA.
I liken it more to indentured servitude because I made
a choice. But these folks go out here and they
get trained on this work. They go out here and
and have lived experience in this work, but when they

(26:29):
come home, they can't utilize these experiences or these skill sets.
You know, it's it's it's somewhat like indentured servitude to me.
In addition to that, was was very interesting. It is
pre COVID incarcerated firefighters made up up tot of the
firefighting force currently right now in California, there are thirty
five fire camps and training centers. Right like, over two

(26:52):
thousand people a year go through this system pre COVID.
We're talking about somewhere around nine thousand, but two thousand
will every year go through this system and they help
out the state. A lot of folks think that this
work is just in firefighting, but there are a couple
of different other avenues as well, firefighting, firefighting administration. Some

(27:13):
people are in camp who like if you were to
call the fire station and say, hey, this is this
fire station, it's probably someone who's incarcerated. Cooks, custodians, finance, folks, logistics,
people in the warehouse, mechanics. Also while we were in
while I was incarcerated in fire camp, we met whatever
labor need the state had, fire or not, we would

(27:35):
go do search and rescue. I used to work at
water treatment plants, so I was cleaning water for the
city of him and we were building golf courses, we
were building baseball fields, we were doing beautification projects like
anything that the state needed. We feel those needs. And
the challenge that I have is if we were good

(27:56):
enough to do this work while incarcerated, we should be
able to go hop into these careers within or these
sectors and once we come home, and that's real rehabilitation. Yeah,
you know, you're painting a picture of a vast variety
of services that folks in the fire camps provide besides
fighting fires. And for folks who are not incarcerated, it

(28:16):
would seem that we often take for granted that parks
are kept maintained and that we have clean water to
drink without giving thanks to the folks who are ensuring
these services run smoothly. You just described so many different
responsibilities that you had while you were working in the camps,
and it leads me to a question for you, Brandon,
because you've worked in the camps and you've brought expertise

(28:37):
with you since you're no longer incarcerated as you continue
your work as a firefighter. So could you talk about
the program that you created, the Forestry and Fire Recruitment Program,
which is the program that Gabriel went through, and share
what the program is, why it was started, and how
you support folks who come through the program. Yeah, thank
you so. First person and foremost, f far AP is

(29:01):
here under the belief that what we do, the State
of California should already be doing itself as a government agency.
But far P the Forestry and Fire Recruitment Program. We're
a nonprofit organization that helps the people who are currently
informally incarcerated in California's fire camps transition into family winning

(29:23):
employment within this sector. How we do that is there
a couple of different ways. First, we go to all
thirty five fire camps and training centers. There's still a
public knowledge situation, right like when you think about how
black folks African Americans celebrate June tenth, because you know,
we were free, but people didn't know that information. There

(29:43):
is still something similar like that going on within the
camp system. Incarcerated people still don't believe that they can
transition into the situation once they come home. We provide
them with the myriad of supports. Let's go get you
some social workers. Let's go get you some housing. Let's
go help you with job prep. Re certify you so
that I can get you a credential that is actually

(30:04):
accepted within this space. Let's go help you to the
network within the firefighting world and go from there. We also,
in the meantime, operate our own private firefighting crews, so
we have folks that go you heard Perez talk about
going to the Calendor fire. And we also help out
homeowners and homeowners associations. So we feel like we meet
at like a very unique intersection of environmental and criminal

(30:28):
justice and work force development challenges. My personal get down
is I have a lived experience in this space. So
I was locked up straight up in two thousand and twelve.
I got sent to Batista Conservation Camp. I parolled home
and it was hard. It was extremely hard. I spent
almost two years. I used to go to fire stations.
I was turning into applications. I just didn't know how

(30:50):
to hop into that world. One day I got a shot.
Shout out to black women, UM chief Betty Ash. She
was the chief of the U. S. Forest Service in
Big Bear, California, and she gave me a shot one day.
And when she gave me a shot, low and behold
what always happens. I was working professionally, Me and my
co founder, Royal Raimi, we were working professionally, and we

(31:13):
go look to the right, and who was there. The
folks who are currently incarcerated, our old crews Batista Crew
one and crew to the folks we were just on
the cruise with two years ago, and it's like that's
their first time seeing somebody that looks like us in
this space. And then that's a reminder to us that,
like bro, I can't go out here and just win

(31:34):
by myself and move forward like I have to give
back because I remember so many people who wanted to
thrive in this space, and so here we are today.
So we operate training programs, We work with employers like
cow fire private agencies, county agencies, governments, and we work
with homeowners to do immediate fire prevention work, to go

(31:54):
put some money in our participants pockets. We have social
workers to go deal with re entry because Amy, you
write re entry as hard as hell. All y'all are right.
Re entry is hard. And what we're trying to do
is proofs of folks that number one, formally incarcerated people
deserve the opportunity. Number two, there's such a labor shortage

(32:16):
that these people deserve opportunities to go move forward, and
like we're just doing it. And lastly, you know, I
love to talk about this so I can ramble all day,
but like, we believe that this is something that the
State of California should be doing itself, but you know what,
we as people as a community are doing it ourselves.
Thank you so much for sharing about what you do
at f f r P. It's incredible the work you're

(32:39):
doing to support folks who want to continue firefighting, and
you share Gabriel's heart of service. And I also want
to say, I'm I'm really struck by the story you
shared of firefighting once you're no longer incarcerated and turning
around and realizing you're working shoulder to shoulder with folks
who you've been working with at the camps. Thank you
so much for sharing that. We'll be right back after

(33:02):
this break. Welcome back to Essential Voices and turning it
over to you, Jamie. I want to talk about the
book that you wrote, Breathing Fire. Why did you want
to investigate these stories from women fighting fires while incarcerated,
and what were some of your goals and sharing the
book with the world. Yeah, I um, I write all

(33:22):
different kinds of things. I don't actually have a bet,
which is not helpful for my career, but it keeps
me actually interested in wanting to continue writing. And I'm
constantly looking for stories. And there was a I think
it was like a four hundred and ninety six word
story in the front page of the California section of

(33:43):
the l A Times. And I grew up in l A.
And I was home and it was about shane Lyn Jones,
who was female incarcerated firefighter who the article is about
how she died fighting a fire in the and Monica Hills.
And you know, I was just I was just really

(34:06):
struck by two things from the article. And one was
like I said, I grew up in l A. You know,
I know those hills. I know California really well. I
was born in Oakland. No one had ever told me
about the camps. I didn't know about fire camps. I
didn't know about the history of the fire. And I

(34:27):
was embarrassed for myself. And then also I was like,
who else doesn't know? Because I bet a lot of
people don't know about this. And the second part of
it was that Shannah Lynn Jones was basically reduced to
this sentence or two sentence description of her crime and
the fact that she was from Lancaster, and I felt

(34:50):
like I needed to know more about her. You know,
I wanted to know who she was before she was incarcerated.
I wanted to know what it was like for her
in camp. I want to know what her family was like.
I just wanted to know more about her. And so
I started there and I ended up writing an article

(35:11):
that was about her death, but then also about the camps.
And after the article came out a lot of people
responded to it, and I thought that one of the
things that I felt like is missing is that you
don't hear about actual lived experiences from women who have

(35:32):
gone through the system, and so I really wanted to
go back to the interviews I did because I had
talked with about thirty to forty women who were incarcerated
firefighters when I was doing the original reporting, and I
wanted to sort of narrow it down to five to
seven women and talk about their lives before they were incarcerated,

(35:55):
what it was like to go through the system, from
being processed and jail to then going to stay. If
they went to stay too, then you know what it
was like when they were firefighters, what it was like
to be a firefighter who was also incarcerated, because there's
a level of carrying stress and trauma that being a

(36:16):
civilian firefighter I think that you don't have. And then
I wanted to talk about what their lives were like
upon release, which as we've touched on a little bit
for varying degrees. You know, there was one woman that
I profiled who you know, she ended up being a
hot shot and she's on her I think she's now

(36:37):
gonna try and apply for her third season as a
hell attack on a crew. And you know, there was
another woman who really wanted to become a firefighter, but
she had two kids she had to sort of be with,
She had to go to a school again, she had
to take all the tests again, she had to juggle

(36:57):
two jobs, go to you know, beyond the bus back
and forth to try and do it, and she had
no support and so there were varying degrees of re
entry that I just felt like it was really important
to kind of talk about what the experience of the
fire camps meant and then how they themselves felt about it,

(37:20):
and I wanted to just hear from them. Are there
aspects of what Gabriel spoke to us about that either
were or were not present with the women that you
interviewed for Breathing Fire? And if there were similarities and differences,
could you share some of them with us? You know?
I think everyone, like in most cases, have really different
experiences and different really sort of life experiences. I think

(37:43):
what he experienced like the one specific that I can
attest to us that he went through f f r
P and he was able to actually do I feel
like he was able to succeed at connecting with a job.
And I think that the women who I talked with,
you know, when they were released, they actually didn't have

(38:05):
a connection with someone and there there wasn't an immediate
sort of knowledge base, you know, like what was talked
about in terms of just disseminating information about ways that
you can work. I think a lot of the women
assumed that they couldn't and because it's so hard, because
you you get rejected from almost every job you apply

(38:29):
for anyway, whether it's like firefighting or not. And then
fire the firefighting world, as you mentioned already, was is
this incredibly exclusive club that is you know, there are
known sort of and I'm going to make a kind
of bold statement, but it's like a known racistem misogynistic enterprise,

(38:51):
and it's something that imagine being formerly incarcerated and trying
to enter into this incredibly exclusive world. So I think
that that connection that he could be part of that
program is really different than anyone that I interviewed, and
that it is absolutely something that seems like the state

(39:15):
should be doing that that immediately upon, Like, you know,
one of the women that I talked with, Selena, she
took she was on three seasons, maybe she was a sawyer.
She was like amazing and she was like, yeah, I
got dropped off at a bus station with two hundred
bucks like it was my gate pat, my gate fee,
and I had called someone to get me and I

(39:37):
went back to McArthur Park because I didn't know what
else to do. I just was like, this is it,
I guess. And then she ended up working and I
think like a donut factory. But if somebody had actually
talked to her and was like, look at what you
can do, look at the money you can make, look
at how you can like, she might have been interested.
And no one's having those conversations because they're such a disconnect.

(40:00):
And I do think that the word, you know, c
d c R, the last word is rehabilitation, and I
think like every woman that I interviewed always refers to
the organization as c d C And I think that's
because rehabilitation isn't really part of it. When you're released,
it continues. You have to continue, you have to care

(40:21):
for people, You have to make sure that you have
support jobs, you know, mental health services, groups for addiction,
like anything that's necessary to not return to the system.
So that was one major thing that seems really different
ump in real quick because that's real. So, first of all,

(40:44):
when you look at the firefighting population within California, you're
gonna see very clear characteristics of who these people are.
They are men, they look a certain way, they come
from certain community, right, and if you don't come from
that background, it's very very hard to go transition into

(41:06):
the space regardless of who you are. You know, say
it again, I'm from Altadena, California, the mountains during my backyard.
I never knew about this career until I was incarcerated.
When we have thousands and thousands of under representing people
or marginalized communities who can go thrive in these spaces,
I always, I always feel for the plight of women. Um.

(41:28):
I think of one of my good friends. Her name
is Angela, and I know Angela won't be mad about
me speaking about her. But Angela had so many challenges
when she came home professionally because she was at an
all male fire engine and folks couldn't understand what that
looks like in firefighting. We're out there doing sixteen or
twenty four hour shifts. They couldn't understand how she was

(41:50):
going to use the bathroom. They didn't understand, you know,
the physicality of who she was, and she had a
daughter and all kind of stuff like you know, and
it's like, bro, like, y'all stop joking about her, like
that she's a person, she's a woman, and she's actually
out here. I'll hike and most of y'all. But there's
all these biases that people have, like, oh, she's a woman,
she's she can't be as fit as us, and all

(42:10):
this kind of stuff. And I think that goes to
show the biases within the fire service and how organizations
like f f r P and other organizations are trying
to combat that. Because when you look at the majority
of professional firefighters, this white men, and then when you
look at the majority of firefighters who are people who

(42:30):
are incarcerated, they're gonna be people of color and they're
gonna be women. That brings back up the slavery conversation
and everyone always brings or the enslavement of people because
it's very this overseer minority group presents and like that's
fucked up. You know, these folks deserve opportunities when they
come home. They just don't know how to tackle these

(42:53):
how to address these. You know, I'm lucky when I
came home, I had I had a child, I had
a daughter. Well, like I can only imagine if I
was like my wife, if I was a mom, childcare issues,
all those kind of things like that. There are so
many things that are built up into this, and I
just look at it like, come on, you know, Governor Newsom,

(43:14):
I respect you. Governor Newsom and all these politicians they
go on here every year and they say, hey, we
have a shortage of firefighters. We need more firefighters. Well,
why don't you go to these communities that you haven't
reached out to. Why don't you figure out a way
to get more women. Why don't you figure out how
to go get more black and brown folks. Go to
Crenshaw High School, go to John Muir High School, Go go,

(43:36):
go get people who are at threat of incarceration. Right,
we as Californians have a have a challenge dealing with
UM young people in foster care, transitional age youth. Like,
let's go find opportunities there because this career has the
opportunity to be life changing, especially in a world where
fire season is continually getting worse and worse and worse. UM.

(43:58):
I don't want to date this podcast, but this is
early and there's already been multiple multiple wildfires in California already.
We used to talk about this thing called fire season,
but it's fire year, and so I'm talking about taking
proactive steps to go out here and deal with it.
I just had one one thing to add, which was

(44:20):
about kind of taking the proactive step about doing more
to broaden the field. You know. That was another really
interesting part of this that I felt like when I
wanted to write about it, was that a lot of
the foreman and captain's would point to these female crews
and they'd be like, they cut line better than men.

(44:40):
They're more precise, they do it faster, They're like really
strong at what they do. They know how to cut
containment line, they know when they're out on a fire,
they do it. And you had this situation where women
were thriving in a career while incarcerated. Somehow that in
the free world cannot figure out how to utilize women.

(45:03):
There's got to be a way, Like, if female crews
work well, why can't they work well not InCAR Sorry
to like, what what is the disconnect here? What an
important question that you're posing And you may have answered
it at least in part when you talk about misogyny
and racism, and while folks are out here working to

(45:24):
dismantle these systems of oppression that have kept marginalized and
minoritized folks, especially from communities of color, from having the
same opportunities as white folks or sis mail folks. What
remains clear is that the systems of oppression still influence
who's getting what kinds of opportunities. And I'm, for one,
grateful to know that f f r P is out
here working to dismantle these systems of oppression, and that

(45:46):
folks like you both are in the mix of creating
moments of future building and creating the futures that we
want to live in. And so being here in this
conversation with you both, you're both pointing towards a lot
of work that needs to be done to exist within
these futures, but you're also inspiring hope that folks can
create change. We'll be right back after this break. Welcome

(46:08):
back to Essential Voices. I just want to backtrack for
a moment because something you said, Brandon about California and
it no longer being fire season but fire year really
struck me. All three of us are calling in today
from California, and we saw what the impact of fire
season had on the state, even just last month, I'm

(46:29):
here in the Bay Area and we were getting smoke
from the big surf fires and it wasn't even the summer.
We heard from Gabriel that folks in the fire camps
are out working on these huge California wildfires. So can
you expand on the role that incarcerated firefighters played during
these really heavy fire seasons in California that at this
point just keep getting heavier. Yeah, So, increstrated people operate

(46:52):
on what they call hand crews. Okay, a hand crew
is a group of twenty people who sold. The responsibility
is to go out here and create fire breaks. And
what fire breaks mean is like, imagine you have a
yard and I have a lawn. More, I'm the fire crew,
So I'm the line half of your lawn is on fire.

(47:12):
I'm gonna mow half of the lawn so that the
other half doesn't hop on fire. Right, That's what we do.
For lack of a better term, hand crews are the
physical labor portion of this work. What's interesting is that
while incarcerated, these folks, the majority of the work that
they do is they all the work that they do

(47:33):
is on the hand crew and so cow fire the
State of California heavily relies on incarcerated people to be
on these hand crews, a very very crucial piece of
this work, which happens to be the most dangerous because sadly,
that's the group that's not always prepared with water. So
like when I was going out in the forest, like
I wouldn't have like water hole, sometimes I would like

(47:55):
I wouldn't. I had a chainsaw and I was just
trying to cut down this tree. So this when Cash
on Fire descended to the next piece. What also happens
during that time is that type of work is extremely dangerous.
Incarcerated people pass that equally, or I would argue higher
rates than non incarcerated people do. In this work, you're

(48:16):
normally in a situation of fifteen to twenty incarcerated people
to one supervisor, whereas when you do this work professionally,
you have one supervisor to five people. So it causes
for for a very dangerous situation. So piggyback on that,
obviously there needs to be major changes and how we
address fire, how we manage fire, how we work with fire,

(48:40):
and who works with fire. It you know, remains this
this thing that I kept realizing when I was doing
the reporting, which was like and that actually is this
is a tangent, but you know, the people responsible for
the major fires are the utility companies, which are thesevately

(49:00):
owned companies that are doing like white collar crime. They
never do time. They pay these enormous fines, but nothing
close to the billions of damages that they cause. And
what they're the fires that they cause from not having
you know, they're they have faulty lines, they don't prepare people,

(49:24):
they don't you know, tell like the wind is up,
and they don't do the emergency shut offs, which they
should be doing. And the people who are cleaning up
their mess are like you described, they are crews made
up of black and brown people, low income people, people
who are incarcerated, who are in the system because they're not,

(49:48):
you know, part of this private white collar enterprise. And
that was something in the course of reporting that I
came to realize and was just it's just deeply frustrat
a daying and not optimistic, but I hope that there's
a way that we can shift from the fire crews

(50:09):
being part of the prison system. Gosh, you hit the
you hit the nail on the head. I mean, okay,
So I had a conversation once with a government agency
that contracts out these crews of people who are incarcerated.
They pay a rate of two hundred and fifty dollars
a day. We're twenty people, right, So they paid two

(50:33):
hundred and fifty dollars for twenty person crew for eight hours.
That's how much these folks are like maximize on because
that don't even fit minimum wage salaries at all. You know,
if you do twenty people at eight hours, at fifteen
an hour, there's some number there. But these government agencies

(50:55):
are only paying two hundred and fifty dollars for the
whole day for all of them. It's it's it's so
crazy how much these folks are maximized on. It's interesting.
When the pandemic hit the state of California, Governor Newsown
decided to let go of what they consider to be
low level offenders. Uh. These folks who are low level
offenders are the people who are within the fire camp program.

(51:18):
You have people on camera saying, why would the governor
let go of these people because we need more firefighters?
What this is asked backwards? Are you are so? Are
you arguing me arguing to me right now that we
should keep people locked up because we need more people
to go be firefighters in this space. Right And not

(51:38):
the first time that that was argued either, that was
argued before the pandemic, when Kamala Harris, Hey, you know,
like that's a funked up argument. Excuse my language, but
like you want to, Okay, we have a wildfire problem.
How do we solve it? Locked people up? What I
thought we was, California. I thought we was the progressist

(52:01):
out here. You know what I'm saying, Like it's it's
so ridiculous, And I think what it is is folks
keep trying to put band aids over this problem where
this challenge or like nobody knows how to how to
solve this problem where this challenge, and like that's why
f f RP is out here, that's why Jamie is
doing her work, because we're showing that there are alternate
ways to create a solution to this problem, like or

(52:23):
to this challenge, Like it's not locking people up. Let's
prevent young people from being locked up. Let's prevent foster youth,
transitional age youth from being locked up. Let's prevent people
with substance abuse issues from being locked up. Let's figure
out ways that these people can win and address this challenge.
It's a piggyback on that. I think that the fire program,

(52:46):
you know, and this was true in Gabriel's story and
from what I'm hearing you say a little bit, Brandon,
and from everyone I interviewed, there were elements of it
that were incredibly positive and that we're reward doing. And
I was so interested in hearing those parts of it.
And I think they give this as an alternative, like

(53:09):
make this a program. You know, the CDCR says that
they save the state something like a hundred million dollars
a year in the fact that they have incarcerated firefighters,
the state of California for two years running has a
budget surplus, and give that money to the people doing
the work. Give jobs, make these programs something that is meaningful,

(53:33):
that involves social services, that involves you know, let's do
something positive. And I think that's one of the reasons
the camps were so interesting to me, is that they
really they had something that felt good to them, even
though there were so many parts that were just like

(53:55):
completely wrong and didn't make any sense. And there were
it's just a bureaucracy to it that could be fixed,
that they could be used as an example, and somehow
it just is so entrenched and we haven't quite been
able to shift. But I believe that we can, and

(54:15):
I believe that's actually possible real quick. Jimmie, being in
fire Camp saved my life if I had If I
had said no to fire Camp and just been in
a dorm or a sale, who knows, you know, I
definitely wouldn't be here in this situation right now. We
wouldn't have fr pek like there was a blessing. But
did I get maxed out? Oh? I got maxed out?

(54:37):
Did I get put in some unsafe situations? I definitely
got put in some unsafe situations. Was there any support
when I came home for me to transition into the
space even though I wanted to? No, there's a way
that this can be beneficial to the people that are
incarcerated within this space, and it's not because what y'all
doing is maximums out. You know, Brandon, what you're talking
about circles back to what you said at the very

(54:58):
beginning when you sharing initial thoughts about gabriel story, which
you said gives you hope even in moments that don't
feel super hopeful. So as we wrap up our conversation today,
you're bringing us back to that hope. And there's momentum
as well. So I'm curious how you create those moments
of joy and hope for your community, for f f
r P, and for yourself, and also how can the

(55:22):
community at large support the work that you're doing. So
also internally, as a program, we try to build a
folks hope and self esteem again, right because once you
come home, you think it's over. So you know what,
when you come to us, we're gonna re certify you.
We're gonna give you all those classes. And when you're
in these classes, these classes are easy because you've been

(55:42):
doing this work for the last three to five years,
so you already know what this is about. We're gonna
provide you paid on the job training. So when one
Homer Homeowners Association pays us to go do fire prevention work,
then we'll pay you seventeen fifty hour to put money
in your pockets so that you can start thriving and
moving forward. It's us, you know, f RP having our

(56:04):
professional uniforms and what we call our class fs and
so you know, you get hired by us and then
you go get the badge and the uniform, or you
go work for the US Force Service or cow Fire
and you go do all that work. It's it's it's
becoming like a pillar of your own community or or
or that kind of get down and that's what we
talk about. What we try to do is and still

(56:25):
hope and possibility for people like if you love this
while you were doing it locked up, like you can
do it when you come home, and this can be
a viable way of life for you. You You know, sadly,
wildfires are going to continue to increase in their frequency
and severity, so it's only going to get worse and
worse and worse and worse and worse. F r P

(56:47):
is just here to help and support anyone in the
are hm Absolutely amazing, Brandon, Thank you so much for
sharing that and for letting your community know and see
by example what you're doing and that you're creating futures
where firefighting can be a viable option once folks are
no longer incarcerated. And for you, Jamie, bringing it full

(57:08):
circle to what we started off on, how does California
support it's formerly incarcerated firefighters in a real way, just
like the firefighters are doing it and supporting and serving California.
I guess, on a very broad note, I would say
one would be to de radicalize the word abolition and

(57:30):
to use it as a model that the way that
our prisons and jails are operating right now is unacceptable,
and that the fact that these fire camps are sort
of the only livable alternative and these motivates like that,
that's a motivating factor to get there is because you're
in such inhumane conditions that you kind of have to

(57:53):
put yourself in these you know, sometimes deadly situations. I
think that's one place to start, is we have to
do extreme reform in prisons and jails and then basically
the entire criminal justice scenario, because you know, one one
problem is just how many people are incarcerated. One of

(58:15):
the things Brandon was talking about was being out in
the environment. There are tons of studies that talk about
how dealing with PTSD, like being out in nature is
is like actually something that is restored to when you're
when you're dealing with PTSD, when you're dealing with having
to kind of go through a lot of emotional stuff,

(58:35):
and that I think is something that could actually be
employed as a as true rehabilitation, which I think needs
a re examination. I think we really need to actually
look at ourselves and what we've accepted as treatment for
humanity and people, because I think we've we are in

(58:59):
a situation where it's just it's unacceptable. M I think,
I think this is a really powerful place for us
to wrap up our conversation today. But I just want
to say that I'm totally totally blown away by both
of you and by this conversation. You're both incredible storytellers
and shared so much wisdom with us today. I'm really

(59:21):
grateful for your time and to have shared space with you.
It was it was very generative for me to hear
about the work that needs to be done and if
there's any way that we can help out. The team
here at Essential Voices stands behind you to support you
in any way possible. Thank you both so much. All right,
let's do it, that's right. I can't shake the powerful

(59:45):
image that Brandon shared of that moment that he was
out firefighting while no longer incarcerated, and he looked over
his shoulder and saw folks he had been fighting fires
with from the fire camps working alongside of him. And
I was so appreciative to both Jamie and end In
for cluing listeners into the history of the state using
incarcerated labor to essentially fill the gaps when the government

(01:00:07):
doesn't want to pay folks what they should be earning
to do these jobs. You know, I, I mean to
be honest, Mr, I hate to admit it, Like Jamie
before she started her reporting on this, I didn't know
the intricacies of this inherently exploitative system. It really emphasizes
something we already know right that there's so much history

(01:00:29):
that gets you raised when it doesn't look pretty. And
it's with a lot of pride that our team and
Essential Voices humbly hopes to reclaim a bit of this
ugly history through the stories that we share today. We
need to hold the folks who keep us safe from
these ravaging fires close to our hearts, because they are
out there risking their lives reading name the smoke, and

(01:00:52):
we're just left to sift through the ash. So join
us over the next two weeks in a two part
series where will explore the impact of COVID nineteen on
essential worker Anthony al Mohea and emergency medical responder in
New York City, and then have a roundtable discussion with
grief expert, psychotherapist and host of the podcast hereafter, Megan Divine.

(01:01:16):
We'll be back next week. Essential Voices with Wilmer val
Drama is produced by me m R Raquel, Alison Shano,
and Kevin Rotkowski, with production support from Associate producer Lillian Holman.
Executive producers Wilmer val Drama, Adam Reynolds, Leo Clem and
Aaron Hilliard. This episode was edited by m R. Raquel,

(01:01:36):
Sean Tracy, and Justin Cho and features original music by
Will Risotti. Special thanks to this week's Essential Voice, Gabriel
Perez and to our thought leaders Jamie Lowe and Brandon Smith.
Additional thanks to Solomon Moron, Rosa, Carissaspeth and Gracie Goodman.
This is a Claimer and w V Entertainment production in
partnership with I Heart Radios Michael Dura podcast Network. For

(01:02:00):
more podcasts from I Heart, visit the i Heart Radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.