November 9, 2021 • 45 mins
Roundtable guests Lindsay Toczylowski and Emem DuPuis Maurus elaborate on part-one of the “Casa de Arcoiris” mini-series. As immigration attorneys, Lindsay and Emem work together to support migrants on both sides of the US/Mexico border, oftentimes working directly with migrants who have stayed at Casa Arcoiris with director Cristina Franco Abundis, from part-one of the mini-series. When the pandemic hit and the border closed, Cristina, Emem, And Lindsay continued working to provide legal aid, safe housing, mental health resources, and joy to the migrants they support.
Learn more about Casa Arco Iris: https://casaarcoiris.org/en/, https://www.instagram.com/alberguecasaarcoiris/?hl=en
Learn more about Immigrant Defenders Law Center: https://www.immdef.org/
Learn more about Transgender Law Center: https://transgenderlawcenter.org/
Learn more about the Border Butterflies Project: https://borderbutterfliesproject.org/
Episode Transcript: https://app.trint.com/public/65d79f8e-968d-4d1c-ab24-153320f3c720
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi everyone. We're back this week with Essential Voices and
Wilma Baldrama and I'm m r Riquel. This week we're
here with part two of our two part mini series
Una Casa the Arkites. Last week we spoke with Christina
Franco Abundi's from Casa Arguitis and Tijuana about the services
her space offers, how they brought joy to their residents
during the pandemic, and why having spaces like Gas Arguitis
(00:23):
is essential for lgbt Q plus migrants. So today, for
Part two, will cast the NED just a bit farther
to cover the legal and political factors at play with
lgbt Q plus folks seeking a sailing. We have two
phenomenal lawyers, Lindsay Taslowski and m M. Dow Marris to
share with us about the crew in services being provided
(00:46):
at the border and their collective work with migrants. Lindsay
is based in Los Angeles and works with the Immigrant
Defenders Law Center, and AMM is based in Tijuana and
works with the Transgender Law Center, specifically on the border.
Butterflies Project, a roundtable conversation with MM and Lindsay starts now.
(01:06):
Lindsay and MM Hi it's an honor to be here
in conversation with you both very much looking forward to
this discussion. Wilmer want to kick us off, Well, thank
you both for being with us today. I'm very excited
to have this conversation. But I love to get what
are your reactions are to Christina's story. Maybe we'll start
with you, Lindsay. Sure, Well, thanks for having me today.
(01:29):
It's so nice to be here with all of you
to talk. So listening to Christina's story, it's, you know,
so much of it sounds so familiar because so many
of the clients that we work with. Some of them
came through that program and through that shelter, but many
of them have just similar stories of getting to places
(01:49):
in northern Mexico where they're just in dire need of
so many services. So as she rattled off all of
the different things that they're doing, it's really incredible. And
I think it's both incredible in a testament to the
incredible team and the work that they do. It's also
an indication of the needs and the trauma and the
(02:10):
really precarious situation that people who are seeking asylum, who
are migrating um and who find themselves you know at
this point, and I'm sure we'll get into this a
lot more, but you know, stuck in places like Cassa
Kuri Eries, but also all over northern Mexico. Amen. Yeah,
(02:30):
thank you so much for having this conversation. I'm I'm
really excited to be here and talk about this stuff. Yeah,
I guess my reactions are similar. Tipona is really lucky
to have two or three shelters that are pretty specifically LGBT.
That said, they are currently homeless housing insecure LGBT people
just in Tipona. So listening to this story, I remember
(02:52):
when I started, which was late two thousand eighteen, give
or take. And what they've accomplished really at a sprint
is it really has been you know, even before COVID
is really incredible. Watching all these advocates really step up
and try and fill this need has been really inspiring,
really hard, like a whole range of emotions and hearing
(03:15):
all of this, it is really amazing, and I think
it does speak to how little there is outside of
civil society, how little there is outside of volunteers. It's
kind of putting your finger in a damn So it
sounds amazing and it is amazing, but you know, it's
also just strains whatever staff there is. You know, one
of the things she mentioned was how many people stayed
(03:38):
for over a year during the pandemic, and I know
we'll talk about that more, but normally there's a time
limit to right, so the borders closed, no one can cross,
and people hit that mark of where do I go?
And I hear that a lot as a challenge around
the housing piece is you're getting all of these services
and you're hitting your three month mark, and people call
us and say, well what do I do now, you know,
and I'm like, well, there's no way across, right, and
(03:59):
there really isn't anything outside of these shelters and just
a really limited, limited amount of other resources in Tijuana.
I've had the privilege, in the honor to be able
to see some of the work that's being done on
the ground, and my friend Elsa Collins, she has organized
multiple trips out there to really understand and gather as
much information as possible so we can accurately be able
to tell that story to the communities who in fact
(04:23):
will want to donate and be a part of you know,
the resources that are sitting down there and some of
the stories of the LGBTQ community who would arrive and
be at a regular shelter. You know, the word pretty
eye opening. I was just in awe that this was,
you know, happening to the community. And thank God, right
so that some of these shelters really came and really
(04:46):
we're able to specialize and mobilize as quickly as you described,
because the stories were just incredibly sobering. But um, I
appreciate you bringing that up because there is so much
about the border and so much about their stories that
has been kind of in many ways not just marginalized,
but now their percentages, their numbers, they're not necessarily a
(05:06):
human story behind it. So it's a very um it's
a very disturbing conversation when we hear it on the
mainstream we here in the news because it's not human driven,
even though it is a humanitarian crisis. Mr mm hmm. Yeah,
great point, Wilmer. And to bring the focus back to Christina,
I mean, in her story, we heard her talk about
the lack of safe housing for LGBTQ migrants and how
(05:30):
gas Arkoitis was founded to fill that lack, right, And
so today we're all here talking about the grave lack
of services, housing and other essential services that migrants all
too often don't have, especially LGBTQ migrants. And it was
clear for being in conversation with Christina that she's all
about being of service for her community. Which leads me
to a question for both of you, MM and lindsay,
(05:53):
what drove you to become attorneys and more specifically use
your skills to advocate for migrants? And MM, let's start
with you. Sure. Yeah, it's always like it feels a
big question to answer and also really simple in that's
weird ways. I'll try and be brief. My illegal career
was kind of book ended with assisting asylum seekers and migrants.
I started out very briefly working in an international context
(06:14):
with you n HCR and then more locally in New York,
and then kind of took a turn and became a
public defender doing criminal defense work and did that for
quite some time, UM, and then kind of went back
into it a bit within my own office, doing some
more like how the intersections of criminal and immigration work,
and then starting in about two thousand and sixteen, the
(06:36):
organization I now work for, a transgender law center, began
responding to individual caravans of LGBT migrants that were heading
towards the border. Coming out of some of that, I
was involved only really as a volunteer in some of
those responses that TLC and some other organizations and j
C and and an organization called Familia Trans Queer Liberation Movement,
(06:58):
And there's started to be conversations around like there must
be a better way to do this, Like we know
that LGBT communities are leaving countries, and I think something
to remember is that lgbt Q migrants leave countries because
of the same reasons as everyone else, plus whatever discrimination
and persecution they faced. So you know, we were like,
(07:18):
there's gotta be a way, right, So all of that
was swirling. Um. I then came down to the border
when there was the October two thousand eighteen caravan, and
at that time it really very much felt like, you know,
I don't know, I don't want to be like super
spiritual about it, but a bit of a calling. I mean,
like our country was trapping people, blocking people doing everything
in the world possible, and it felt as that, well,
(07:41):
there are not a lot of lawyers here. It's kind
of like we all went to the airport when the
Muslim bent happened, and then we all went back to
the airport when the second one happened, And this for
me felt like a bit of a logical extension of that.
It felt like this is the place to be trying
to fight what our country is implementing, um you know,
stones through from the borders. So after about a year,
(08:02):
all of a sudden there was kind of more funding
for the lgbt specific work, and I just happened to
be here and had already kind of been plugged in.
So I was then just incredibly honored and still am
to be trying to create the sort of an lgbt
Q specific programs that works both in Mexico the United States.
And so that's I guess kind of my story. That's
(08:23):
amazing what you're saying about this work being a spiritual calling,
It makes a lot of sense. I'm The honor that
you're talking about really resonates for me, albeit in a
different way. You know, for me as a storyteller, I
get to do something I love every day, which is
talking to people to hear their stories and connect. And
it feels like the biggest honor and dream that I
could have imagined. So I can really feel that kindred
(08:44):
passion you have for your work, and I think that
it's beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing that. And lindsay,
what about you? What has your path been with your work?
I think for me in some ways it's similar when
I hear you talk about it being a calling. I mean,
I feel like I've been an immigration attorney now for
over ten years. I've always been a social justice lawyer.
(09:04):
I've always been a free lawyer UM to my clients,
which is important and for me, what keeps me going
and keeps me in this work is that every single
day I know I'm doing exactly what I'm supposed to
be doing. I founded the organization that I run now
UM Immigrant Defenders Law Center. We call it m Death
in ten I had worked actually at Catholic Charities, at
(09:28):
a religious based organization UM and because of the discrimination
that they were showing towards clients of ours was a
big motivation for us to found an independent organization. I
believe really strongly that representation and access to counsel and
access to justice should be absolutely universal. It should be
you know, justice for all and no exceptions UM. And
(09:50):
that means that people with criminal convictions. That means sometimes
prioritizing communities that are too often left out, particularly black
migrants at the border in lgbt Q migrants. But that
sort of universal representation can't be done within the framework
of organizations that have existed for a long time and
come from, you know, a perspective that discriminates against other people.
(10:13):
And so we founded m deaf in Um with no
idea of the election that was about to come that
would really change our world. But I found it. It
was Susan Alba, my co founder, in our living rooms,
and we over the last six years have grown it
to you know, we have a cross border initiative that
works in Tijuana, Mahikali, and San Diego, and we have
(10:34):
our headquarters in l A and we have over twenty
staff now and almost fifty lawyers that all they do
is provide zealous advocacy and representation to thousands of people
who otherwise will be forced to go into immigration court alone.
Well and mm, how about the work that the Transgender
(10:54):
Law Center does and more specifically Border Battleflies. Yeah, absolutely,
a Border Butterflies is a transnactional I mean, one of
the important things is we really are a coalitional project
and it's anchored by Transgender Law Center and Familia trans
Queer Liberation Movement to ql M, which is based out
of l A. So our project began in Earnest in
(11:15):
mid late two thousand nineteen, and the goal is really
to a company and support LGBTQ migrants from wherever we
make contact to where they're you know, have safety and stability,
and that can look a lot of different ways. The
vast majority of folks that we do encounter in our
project are intending and do want to go to the
United States, but we always leave open based on policies
(11:38):
and politics around immigration status in Mexico and various other
things that sometimes people may want to stay. So what
that looks like, how it's really shaped out, is we
do Obviously, the core of TLC's role is legal, so
a lot of that is has always intended to be
in remains like trying to prep people, give people information,
sometimes work on a little bit of their asylum case,
(12:01):
but at a minimum, get documents understand you know, one
individual we worked with, for example, had a really serious
medical condition and we had all those records and we
have the releases and so when they did end up
in detention. We could really quickly respond because he started
getting shuffled all over and I could say, I already
have these releases. We don't have to figure out how
to get to Mississippi, you know. So that's an example
of kind of legal protection, legal preparation. We certainly helped
(12:24):
connect two attorneys if we don't represent them ourselves, and
then it's really turned into a lot of protection within Mexico.
I think a lot of people discussed within Mexico talking
about a Southern Wall, which is the southern border of Mexico,
and that's moving into Guatemala. And so you have a
trans woman from Nicaragua who's trying to get here, and
we do a lot of you know, working with partners
(12:45):
to try and get someone facilitate, right, like we can't
help with travel, but really just trying to protect them
as they get through Mexico. And then a lot of
what we do is connection. People know they can reach out.
And I think something about this project done anyone who
does this work. I'm sure Lindsay has had this experience
as well, is like migration is not direct. People do
(13:05):
not go in straight lines. We had one woman who
was in Tijuana, then she was in Mexico City for
part of the pandemic. She ended up in Piedras Negras,
which is another part of the border. Mexican border official
took away her idea and deported her back to Honduras.
We're now supporting her and Honduras trying to help her
get back to Mexico. You know, I mean, it's a
zig zag, right. I'm just so so happy that in
(13:26):
a way she had people to reach out to, she
knew who we were. We just kind of stayed in
contact when she was in Mexico City, we stayed in
contact when she was in Pios Negras, and then we're
able to try and support with partners. That's a lot
of what we do is kind of connection protection and
then legal support. Wow, what an incredible initiative. And that
(13:46):
you maintain contact through all the steps of this migration process, which,
as you point out, it's not direct, it's a zig zag.
Must be difficult, but so important for the migrants that
you're assisting to know that you're always there for them
each step of the way, and shows how interconnected the
work you both do is. Because MM you're in Tijuana
and lindsay, you're in l A, but you're both working
(14:07):
together for a common goal. And this also circles back
to Christina, who is a big component of bridging together
your work by providing safe housing to LGBTQ migrants as
they wait on their asylum cases. We heard Christina talk
about her pandemic family, right the migrants who were all
granted asylum in the United States after being with her
for a year. So lindsay, can you explain more about
(14:30):
what happens once folks like Christina's pandemic family arrive in
the US and how m deaf supports these folks during
the process. Yeah, and in many ways when people finally
are able to cross into the U. S. And l say, finally,
because I'm shocked that we've gone this far into this
interview without either MM or I bringing up, you know,
a naming title forty two, which is the racist Trump
(14:53):
policy that is now a Biden policy and being really
championed by them, which has shut down our board under
the false pretense that it's about stopping the spread of COVID,
but it's really an anti asylum seeker, anti black, anti
immigration policy. It is not a public health policy, and
that's what's led to years worth of people waiting to
(15:15):
come in. And there was a brief window of time
where certain folks we were able to get in through
an exemption system, and that has now ended. And so
right now, you know, I was inn Tiquana on Tuesday.
We were doing no your rights presentations and at the end,
the first question everybody had is so when will I
be able to seek asylum? And literally my answer is, well,
(15:37):
nobody knows. And can you imagine getting that answer from
a lawyer, Well, you're sitting in a shelter with your kids,
and these folks that I was talking to weren't even
in a shelter. There in a refugee camp that is
at a closed port of entry in Tijuana. Right now,
this situation is so dire. But for folks who you know,
I would say, are lucky to have made it through
(15:58):
at this point, because it's so few people who are
able to access any sort of protection, it really starts
another phase of an unjust journey that they have to
go through. And just this morning I was in the
downtown l A court house, sitting and observing what's called
the dedicated docket, which is a new docket that's specifically
(16:18):
for asylum seeking families. So almost every single person I
saw in court this morning was unrepresented, was a mom
with literally holding a baby. And those folks are expected
to walk into an immigration courtroom. All of them have
ankle monitors on which when you have somebody go through
the trauma of this journey and then get to the
United States and be digitally incarcerated with an angle monitor
(16:41):
that beeps when they go too far, it's not charged,
it's really horrifying. But folks then are expected to go
into an immigration court room and unless they are able
to find counsel either because they have means in their family,
which is usually country specific. It's certain asylum seekers from
certain countries will have the community funds or the family
(17:05):
funds to get an attorney. But for the vast majority,
in particularly Central American asylum seekers, who make up the
majority of folks on that dedicated docket, they're expected to
go into court and while you know, balancing their infant
on their hip, I swear to tell the truth, and
then they're defending themselves, and the stakes are they could
be sent back with their baby who their breastfeeding, back
(17:28):
to a country where they could be killed, and they
have to go in and there's a paid government, highly
trained attorney whose job it is to get them deported,
and they need to go in and represent themselves in
a language that they often do not understand, and looking
at documents that they may or may not be able
to read. And today, after every hearing he would ask
(17:50):
to people want more time to find an attorney, and
the judge would then hand them a list of organizations
in Los Angeles that provide pro bono legal services. And
m DEF is the large this organization in l A
that provides pro bono legal services to folks in the
l A immigration courts. And I had already told the
judge before the first hearing a week ago when I
(18:10):
was there, that we have absolutely no capacity, and that
I have confirmed with all of the other organizations no
one has capacity. And yet every single family was handed
that list and told to call all the organizations and
see if they could find an attorney to represent them,
and if they can't, they come back in six weeks
and they represent themselves. So when we say like the
system itself is designed to deport people, that's why it's
(18:34):
not designed to adjudicate asylum claims. It's designed to deter
people from actually accessing protection at all. We'll be right
back after this break. Welcome back to Essential Voices. I've
had an opportunity to sit in these core rooms just
to listen, and sometimes it's like, I hate to say,
but it's like literally a car factory and he breaks
(18:55):
my heart because they're sitting there and they're waiting for
a moment in front of the judge, and the judge
does into a make eye contact with them at all.
They just do their protocol three or four sentences and
then they give it another date. Oh, it is what
it is. It was very emotional for me to be
in those rooms and see how many cases they see
a day without any real hearing, and they call them hearings,
(19:16):
you know, which is really intense. But Mr, thanks for
sharing that experience with us. Wilmer. You know, it sounds
like we're talking about trauma now, the trauma that migrants
experienced during this asylum process. Lindsay you mentioned this trauma,
and Wilmer, you're alluding to it now when you talk
about sitting in the courtroom watching these cases as an outsider,
(19:38):
you can still feel it deeply. Trauma informed care seems
necessary to the work that both of you MM and
Lindsay are doing on a daily basis. And mental health resources,
which is perhaps an umbrella term covering aspects of trauma
and informed care, was also a big component of what
Christina mentioned that Casaquites offers their residence. So for you
(19:59):
at m F Lindsay, you have a program that specifically
addresses trauma called the Family Unity Project. Could you share
more about this program and how you address trauma and
your work and MM, if you'd like to add anything
in afterwards, please jump in. It's really compounded trauma lots
of times, particularly by the time people are joining our
(20:21):
communities and here in l A or throughout Southern California,
because often there's the trauma of the original reason that
the person had to flee their country. People have fled
for so many different reasons, but they carry that with
them and there's such profound loss also a loss of community,
loss of family when people have to leave, and then
(20:43):
the journey itself can be so traumatic. And I'm sure
MM can talk more about, you know, just some of
the specifics that folks face, especially now being trapped in
Tijuana and other cities, but once folks get here, we
really try and support in a variety of way is
But in death we also recognize that we are ultimately
(21:05):
a social justice law firm, and so we're best served
when we work collaboratively with others who are experts UM
in providing services. So we have an entire case management
unit and their job is to ensure that our clients
are referred to the best organizations that can provide culturally competent,
comprehensive medical, mental health, housing, food security programs UM and
(21:30):
so they are very busy making sure that our clients
can do that or receive all those services. But the
reason that that's so important is because if somebody is
unable to have mental health treatment, access the medications that
they need, access the services they need, be in therapy,
they're unable to participate meaningfully in the biggest fight of
(21:51):
their lives, which is defending themselves against deportation. So we
want to be able to provide something to our families
that we work with that gets them to a place
where they can meaningfully participate. And the Family Unity Project
that you mentioned that was actually born out of the
family separation crisis, and that project specifically works with families
(22:14):
that we helped to reunite. The kids were all over
the country, parents were detained all over the country, And
because l A is such a receiving site for so
many migrants from all over the world, we have a
large population of families that were ripped apart at the
border in and who have been reunited and are still
recovering from that, and so we are still fighting for
(22:35):
them not to get deported, even after they were so
gravely harmed. And we also have expanded that project to
recognize that every single time somebody ends up in an
ice present because they're you know, ripped off the streets
of l A. They're picked up on their way to
drop their kids off at school. When that happens, it
is really another family separation. And so we want to
(22:57):
recognize that and recognize that incarcerating people in ice prisons,
forcing people to remain in Mexico, forcing people to not
be able to access the system at all um and deportations,
all of those are forms of family separation. And you know,
I often say I want to channel the outrage of
that everybody had in ten and be like, it's still happening.
It's happening every day. It's happening right now in the
(23:19):
courtroom in downtown l A. It's happening in Wanda. Those
family separations are happening, and the urgency is still here,
still under Biden. M Wow, powerful, Thank you so much
for providing that context. Lency. It's truly incredible work that
you're doing in the face of such dire situations with
the family separations that you're describing. Thanks for sharing that. MM.
(23:43):
What are your thoughts? Yeah, I mean one thing that
Christina didn't talk about, which I understand why because of
the focus of her work and how amazing she is.
But there's trauma to her staff, there's trauma to her,
there's trauma to everyone down here. Um, you know. So
one of the things we try and look at is
how can we nimbly engage in trauma practices. So what
(24:04):
little things can we do in our office that might
help somebody just in that moment get through an interview.
And then also we have funding and we're starting to
build a program that would help begin treatment here and
then give them some ability to transfer that to the
United States. So it's like, mental health needs don't end
when someone goes from Mexico to the United States, And
(24:24):
wouldn't it be beautiful if there was some bridge, some
check in, some kind of continuity. And that's kind of
a pipe dream at this point, but we're slowly building
that out, and I think all the shelters are trying
to figure out this really huge need, and I think
that kind of loops back kind of as an endpoint
of staff. I was trained as an attorney, but often
I'm thinking, Okay, this person is, you know, having an
(24:46):
anxiety attack. How can I help mitigate that or address that?
And it's not about my legal skills in that moment, right,
And that's true as well for shelter staff, and that's
true as well for every volunteer is trying to recognize
trauma and recognize behaviors and figure out how can I
intervene in this moment. And in saying all that, I
guess it's important to mention like the incredible resiliency of
(25:08):
people through all of this, So it's really about us,
you know, in dialogue with them, Like you know, some
people don't want a psychologist in the shelter because they're
like I don't know who they're talking to, you know,
like they're employed by the shelter, and then I'm complaining
about the shelter, you know, because I don't like being
in a room with six people. And so it's it's
about being really nimble in our responses and really listening
(25:29):
to communities. You know, what what does mental health look
like to you? What would help you? And a lot
of times people talk about not being able to sleep
or just feeling really anxious all the time. And so
we started doing little groups of just like exercises like
how to slow down your breathing, you know, and a
lot of people really love that. Tapping things like that
that are you know, not so much like I need
a psychiatrist. It's just some sort of intervention. And when
(25:52):
you put it in the context of nobody knows when
they get out of here, t Quana is a spot
sometimes where it's hard because it's like you're going to
get out of Paula and you're struggling to get out
of and you're struggling to get through Mexico and you
get to Tijuana and you can see the US and
then we are like, sorry, we don't know when you're
gonna get there. Because Joe Biden has arbitrarily closed the border,
you know, and that's really hard. Do I get a job,
(26:14):
do I get an apartment? When do I get to leave?
You know? I'm unsafe here, and you know, I think
that also adds a lot of trauma and a lot
of mental health issues, understandably, So thanks so much. I'mm.
What you're saying is about asking folks like what would
help you? What do you need? And that can make
all the difference, right. It's tapping into each person's individual
(26:36):
needs instead of just having one standardized system, because what
works for one person doesn't work for everyone, and that
support doesn't always look like therapy. It can vary for
each person, which also brings us back to Christina and
the focus that Casquities has on bringing joy to their
residence through the arts, and how they found creative ways
to lift their residents spirits during the most anguish filled
(26:57):
times during lockdown and so today, this conversation so far
has touched upon a lot of the ways that immigration
policies actively make situations worse for migrants, contributing to this
anguish that Christina was talking about. But in thinking about
bringing joy during times of anguish, it makes me wonder
what you would both like to see change within immigration policies.
(27:19):
It's a big question. Um, but lindsay, let's start with you.
What changes would you like to see implemented. Yeah, it's
a big question. I mean, we have legislation in Washington
right now and through the reconciliation process. If the Vice
President and the Senate would ignore the unelected parliamentarians advice,
(27:39):
we could have relief for millions of undocumented people living
in the United States. That should absolutely happen, and that
would benefit a lot of people. It's hard sometimes, as
somebody who spends a lot of time at the border
to see even under this administration, this constant need, this
needs or reaction to push back against anybody newly arriving
(28:04):
to the United States, to constantly feel that there's somehow,
some way that you can deter people from seeking protection
when their lives are at risk that you can tell,
you know, it's heartbreaking to see President Biden and Vice
President Harris, who campaigned on this message of We're going
to restore humanity at our border, to be telling people
(28:26):
don't come. Seeing that. It breaks my heart because it's
a very misunderstood idea of what people are fleeing of
what the stakes are. It's a misunderstanding that people think
about what the policy is before they flee for their
lives with their kids in their arms. So I would say, yes,
(28:47):
we need to move forward comprehensive immigration reform. We need
to do that this year under reconciliation. Democrats have to
stop being so scared and just actually do it. But
we also have to remember that the border and people
seeking protection and asylum seekers Title forty two needs to
(29:08):
be rescinded immediately, and we need to figure out a
way to safely welcome people with dignity. And until we
have a policy that puts that as the priority at
our border, we will continue to see undocumented folks having
to live in the shadows in the United States, and
will continue to see the real horror that we see
at the border today. So I think it's like a
(29:30):
two pronged approach that I think is so important. We'll
be right back after this break, Welcome back to Essential Voices.
Thank you Lindsay for shedding light on the current legislation
and what you're two pronged approaches. And although what Lindsay
described applies to LGBTQ migrants as well. Um, what about
U m M. What changes would you like to see
(29:51):
specifically implemented for LGBTQ migrants. Any immigration policy affects lgbt
people either maybe slightly better every now and then, but
mostly worse. And so everything Lindsay just said applies to
every single lgbt Q identified person who's subject to the
immigration system in the United States for sure. Um, I'll
(30:12):
start where I'm at, which is on the Mexico side,
which is plus a million to what Lindsay said, which
is that I think a lot of people don't understand
that the border is closed, and that, you know, because
it isn't right. I can cross today and millions of
truckers can cross today, and your t shirts can cross,
and your avocados cross, but migrants cannot cross, and you
know that's obviously nonsensical. But that is where we're at,
(30:35):
and that at this point is Joe Biden's choice on
a daily basis. So number one, like people need to
get across. People are not safe here. LGBT people are
not exempt. We have a number of Jamaican LGBT individuals
that we are supporting. They do not speak Spanish, they
are not safe. They don't have anywhere to stay. They
have a harder time finding shelters. They don't get a
special across the border pass. So that's my number one.
(30:58):
UM detention is another on where it's not okay for anybody.
It's a car serral system that is unnecessary for asylum seekers.
But we're involved in an end trans detention campaign. There
should not be transgender people in detention. You know, detention,
whether it should be or shouldn't be, is male or female,
and any workaround of that kind of thing doesn't really work.
(31:19):
We have trans men in particular who end up in
solitary confinement for years while they're waiting for their case
to be adjudicated. So no one should be in detention,
but I would say for LGBTQ communities it is disproportionately
difficult to be in detention. UM work authorization is another
one that I think a lot of people are unaware of,
specifically for asylum seekers. The first question we get when
(31:42):
people cross the border, and we've already told them, but
I think they're just like, when how can I go
about getting my work permit? I want to get to
work and get myself up and running. Well, sorry, you can't.
For a really long time. And that's something else that
I think a lot of people don't know, and that's
something that really affects our clients. You we end up saying,
this might take a year to get you a work permit,
(32:03):
and what are you supposed to do in the meantime.
I don't know. This can affect LGBT migrants just as
much as anyone else, but particularly so because they're often
pushed into pretty vulnerable work situations, more at risk of trafficking,
more at risk of policing, more at risk of everything
that affects LGBT communities in the United States. So I
(32:23):
mean the fact that we're preventing people from getting themselves
established right um, we're forcing them to not have an
income or make one under the table is one of
the problems that I think is really important. We make
sure that everyone has a lawyer, but right now there
are not enough. It's hard for people to do it
for very long. It's hard for people to want to
(32:44):
do it to begin with. So I definitely think that
the Immigration Court, I do think it's important. And the
reason I put that on my list actually was that
I think people would be shocked how many people within
the LGBTQ communities identifying as gay or trans, or we
were in some way lose their cases. We run across
people all the time in Mexico. Of the hundreds of
(33:07):
people in our project right now, we have people who
were in detention and gave up because they thought a
guard was going to sexually assault them, or did sexually
assault them, or they were bullied in detention, or it
was just too hard. People who were staying with family
members who it turned out were absolutely not affirming of
their identities and they left. People who just lost because
(33:27):
judges have quotas in certain You know, the immigration system
is not equal in all parts of the United States.
The law is the same, but it is not applied
the same. And we have people all the time who
tell me, well that I didn't have a lawyer and
the judge told me I needed evidence, or the judge
didn't believe me, or I didn't highlight being gay as
much as other things because it was like in a
(33:48):
courtroom and I don't know these people. So I think
people would be absolutely shocked. I think even among attorney
communities sometimes I hear, well, yeah, i'll take a queer
case because you know, you'll win that and it's like,
well sometimes yes, you know, but they can be really difficult.
And we have a lot of people trying to re
enter the United States because they were deported and got
back to wherever they left to begin with, and you know,
nothing was better. And so I really do think fair
(34:11):
and more robust legal services are really important, although absolutely
not an answer to to the greater systemic issue. There's
so much about immigration and that conversation. There's just tons
of scenarios and categories and people you know that have
their reasons and different soulful reasons for the hy to migrate.
(34:34):
And when I think about just a hopeful image that
both of you represent for your clients, just to have
a meeting, to sit down with you, to have a coffee,
to just be heard and have you really to create
some type of roadmap. Okay, we're gonna, we're gonna watch
this way, we're gonna we'renna see how far we get.
That alone can keep so many of our people alive.
(34:57):
You know, that's the beacon, that's the image, that's what
you wanted. End of the road. You just want to
see a little bit of a light. And also people
bring that to these communities. And I'm excited that we
were able to shane so much light on on so
much of the infrastructure that has been fractured over and
over again, and that it continues to crumble every time.
We're going to an administration that says, Okay, we're gonna
(35:18):
fix it. You know, that's the first thing we're gonna do,
and then all of a sudden they get hit with
the mandate and uh, it starts getting pushed lower and
lower and lower. Meanwhile, people are going to sleep and
waking up, going to sleep and waking up, you know
in the border, waiting and these shelters for just a
conversation that moves the needle forward. So I'm proud and
blessed to have been listening to your wisdom. Thank you
(35:40):
for being able to paint such a picture for everyone
who's listening to this um. So two things, One is
how can the community continue to support the work that
you're doing. And briefly, also when message do you have
to those futured leaders who at some point may sit
where you're sitting and might be part of that change
or that light that hope that you bring these communities.
(36:02):
And we'll start withnes see I think there are so
many things that people can do to get involved with
this work and to support our work. One of them
is just to follow on social media and donate to
organs that are doing the work on the front lines
right now in this moment because of the crisis we're
seeing with Haitian migrants, and specifically encourage folks to donate
(36:23):
to black let organizations that are leading the fight for
justice for those communities Haitian Bridge Alliance, the Black Alliance
for Just Immigration, and Undocy Black or three that I
would say people should be following them and looking for
calls to action from those organizations. But beyond um sort
of lifting things up on social media and using your
(36:44):
platforms and for folks you know in the industry telling
authentic stories about what's happening at the border. I would
also say that you know, it really starts in your
own communities. If you're you know in a place like
Los Angeles or New York or Miami, you have asylum
sekers in your commu unity, you have unaccompanied children who
are going to the same school as your kids are
going to, So reach out to those families, reach out
(37:07):
to organizations like in dep that are doing the work
in your community and ask them like, are there folks
who need a ride to immigration court. People don't realize
that if someone can't get to immigration court, their ordered
deported in their absence. So sometimes you can help save
someone's life by picking them up and driving them where
they need to go. Bring a kid to their asylum interview,
(37:29):
Invite a family that you can tell is recently arrived
for dinner at your house. Because all of that is
an important part of integrating people into our communities, of
making them feel welcome, and of doing it with dignity,
which is something that's not happening. It's something our government
is not doing, so we as community members should be
doing it. And in regards to what I would say
(37:50):
to you know, especially um someone who's considering going into
this line of work, I often hear lawyers like kind
of make this joke that someone told me they were
going to go to law school and and I told
them not to. And every time I see that joke,
I actually feel the exact opposite. I feel like I
have the best job in the entire world. Yes, it's hard,
it is traumatizing, it is oftentimes heart wrenching, but I
(38:15):
know every single day when I wake up, I'm doing
exactly what I'm supposed to be doing. And so we
need more people in this fight. We need more people
who are culturally competent, we need people who speak the languages,
We need more people that have experienced this themselves to
be doing this work, and more allies to choose this
(38:36):
career path. And that also means that we need to
financially support the organizations because we have to make this
type of social justice work accessible to everyone, even those
who come from the communities we serve, and that requires
us being able to pay fair salaries and be fair
to our workers as well. Thanks Samam. It's really just
(38:57):
about really amplifying and standing solidarity and standing in community
with folks, whatever that looks like to you. So for me,
it's a lawyer, and for someone else in my staff
it's therapist, and that's not something I would be probably
very good at um. So I just really think that
there's a place for everyone. And in terms of really
how to help now, kind of transitioning into that part
(39:19):
of the question, I really encourage people that it's local first.
You know your community the best, and there are immigrants everywhere.
I am from Idaho. There are immigrants there. People don't
know that, but there are. You know, there are immigrants
in Iowa, in Nebraska, in Texas, everywhere, and obviously there
are certain places there are concentration of migrants and nationalities.
(39:42):
There are also immigrants from everywhere. So I really encourage
people to look locally first. And as you do that,
you know, it's like amazing what happens. I think people
suddenly are in state capitals. It happens all the time.
People are like, I went to court with the person
that I'm sponsoring, and oh my god, I have never
se and anything so horrific. And then they do like
a petition and then they get the school to pass
(40:04):
us something, and then they're in Congress, so you know
what I mean. So I really encourage people to start
with what you know the best. I don't think you
have to come to Mexico necessarily, right. And the other
thing that I really encourage people to do is very
few calls can move a congressman or a senator. A
small amount of people can really affect these things, and
(40:24):
it's really important to understand the issues. I have never
heard anything explained so terribly so across the board. You know.
I was in a doctor's office the other day and
people who thought they'd watched the news and thought they
knew what was going on at the border with respect
to migrants, it didn't. And so it's just really important,
you know, to take the time and to try and
(40:45):
really ask questions and really look at it in my
view through a lens of what would I want for myself,
what would I want for a neighborhood. And I think
it's not about the law, and it's not about politics.
It really is that I definitely wholeheartedly recommend following the
three organizations Lindsay brought up Patient Bridge, UNDOCU, Black Bag
or Black Alliance for Justice for Immigrants LGBTQ specific is
(41:08):
the Black LGBT Migrant Project, who also does a ton
of work around these things. There's some translet organizations Familia,
t QLM, CASA Ruby, a number of others. That is
a really great place to start reach out. How can
I help you trans queer plubload as all kinds of
stuff in the Southwest. And I bring those up because
those are people often with immigrant experiences, who speak indigenous languages,
(41:32):
but almost always do not have any funding. They are
doing it after the three jobs they have to support
their family because they see it as urgent, they see
it as non negotiable. But we all need to help
amplify and lift up that work. So if you don't
have time, donate to who you know is doing good work.
But I really think there are so many amazing trends
(41:53):
and queer lead organizations on both sides of the border
who are just doing this after they're off their second
shift and took their kids to soccer practice and then
they're out of the detention center parking not to pick
someone up and just take them to get some food.
And that's one of the things we really try and
do is amplify those voices and those folks because they're
the ones who can really speak to what's going on
and the actual experience of these folks. Fantastic, Thank you, maam.
(42:17):
Thank you Lindsay so much for your time and uh
my gratitude for all that you do and for being
with us today. Wow, just wow. I'm hunting by Lindsay's
words of the system being so broken that having a
good lawyer just isn't enough and they aren't even enough
(42:37):
lawyers to go around the much less services for lgbt
Q plus migrants and a silent seekers wanting to be
grounded a sailing in the United States. Yeah, and this
is why I'm all the more grateful for organizations like
the Trench Gender Law Center, Border Butterflies, the Immigrant Defenders
Law Center and CASS. And then we get to have
conversations like the one we had today, me too, and
(42:59):
go them back to the heart of this many series.
I love that the name of Christina Space is casaar
coites har Coit is in Spanish means rainbow, so a
rainbow feels like a fit in metaphor for the hope
he provides, hope that both Lindsay and m M give
me with their work exactly a rare but beautiful site
(43:19):
after the storm passes. To our listeners, please support Christina's
work at Casa Quities by following them on social media
at Albergue Casa Quities that's a l P E R
g U E C A S A A R C
O I R I S on Instagram, or donating if
(43:40):
you can. Any support goes a very long way, and
their doors are always open. Follow m M's work with
the Transgender Law Center at trans Law Center and Lindsay's
work with M Deaf at M def Underscore Law Center.
That's I Am M d e f Underscore Law Center,
(44:01):
both on Instagram. Well, that wraps up our mini series Kites.
We hope you enjoyed it as Mantz we enjoyed making it.
Essential Voices with Wilma val Drama is produced by me
M R. Raquel, Alison Shano, and Kevin Rotkowski, with production
support from associate producer Lillian Holman. Executive producers Wilmer val Drama,
(44:23):
Adam Reynolds, Leo Clem and Aaron Hilliard. This episode was
edited by M. R. Raquel and Sean Tracy and features
original music by Will Risotti. Special thanks to last week's
essential voice, Cristina Franco Abounds from Casa Arkoitis in Tijuana,
and to our thought leaders for this episode Lindsay t.
Slavski from the Immigrant Defenders Law Center and amm To
(44:46):
Pue Maris from the Transgender Law Center. Additional thanks to
Yolanda Celene Walter, mead Letty Martinez and Mossio, Chris Chambers,
Anna Barry, Lorena Bordevie, Renee Garcia, and Nila Goshall. This
is a claim Aimer and w V Entertainment Production in
partnership with I Heart Radio's Michael Dura podcast Network. For
(45:06):
more podcasts from I heart, visit the i heart Radio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hi everyone. We're back this week with Essential Voices and
Wilma Baldrama and I'm m r Riquel. This week we're
here with part two of our two part mini series
Una Casa the Arkites. Last week we spoke with Christina
Franco Abundi's from Casa Arguitis and Tijuana about the services
her space offers, how they brought joy to their residents
during the pandemic, and why having spaces like Gas Arguitis
(00:23):
is essential for lgbt Q plus migrants. So today, for
Part two, will cast the NED just a bit farther
to cover the legal and political factors at play with
lgbt Q plus folks seeking a sailing. We have two
phenomenal lawyers, Lindsay Taslowski and m M. Dow Marris to
share with us about the crew in services being provided
(00:46):
at the border and their collective work with migrants. Lindsay
is based in Los Angeles and works with the Immigrant
Defenders Law Center, and AMM is based in Tijuana and
works with the Transgender Law Center, specifically on the border.
Butterflies Project, a roundtable conversation with MM and Lindsay starts now.
(01:06):
Lindsay and MM Hi it's an honor to be here
in conversation with you both very much looking forward to
this discussion. Wilmer want to kick us off, Well, thank
you both for being with us today. I'm very excited
to have this conversation. But I love to get what
are your reactions are to Christina's story. Maybe we'll start
with you, Lindsay. Sure, Well, thanks for having me today.
(01:29):
It's so nice to be here with all of you
to talk. So listening to Christina's story, it's, you know,
so much of it sounds so familiar because so many
of the clients that we work with. Some of them
came through that program and through that shelter, but many
of them have just similar stories of getting to places
(01:49):
in northern Mexico where they're just in dire need of
so many services. So as she rattled off all of
the different things that they're doing, it's really incredible. And
I think it's both incredible in a testament to the
incredible team and the work that they do. It's also
an indication of the needs and the trauma and the
(02:10):
really precarious situation that people who are seeking asylum, who
are migrating um and who find themselves you know at
this point, and I'm sure we'll get into this a
lot more, but you know, stuck in places like Cassa
Kuri Eries, but also all over northern Mexico. Amen. Yeah,
(02:30):
thank you so much for having this conversation. I'm I'm
really excited to be here and talk about this stuff. Yeah,
I guess my reactions are similar. Tipona is really lucky
to have two or three shelters that are pretty specifically LGBT.
That said, they are currently homeless housing insecure LGBT people
just in Tipona. So listening to this story, I remember
(02:52):
when I started, which was late two thousand eighteen, give
or take. And what they've accomplished really at a sprint
is it really has been you know, even before COVID
is really incredible. Watching all these advocates really step up
and try and fill this need has been really inspiring,
really hard, like a whole range of emotions and hearing
(03:15):
all of this, it is really amazing, and I think
it does speak to how little there is outside of
civil society, how little there is outside of volunteers. It's
kind of putting your finger in a damn So it
sounds amazing and it is amazing, but you know, it's
also just strains whatever staff there is. You know, one
of the things she mentioned was how many people stayed
(03:38):
for over a year during the pandemic, and I know
we'll talk about that more, but normally there's a time
limit to right, so the borders closed, no one can cross,
and people hit that mark of where do I go?
And I hear that a lot as a challenge around
the housing piece is you're getting all of these services
and you're hitting your three month mark, and people call
us and say, well what do I do now, you know,
and I'm like, well, there's no way across, right, and
(03:59):
there really isn't anything outside of these shelters and just
a really limited, limited amount of other resources in Tijuana.
I've had the privilege, in the honor to be able
to see some of the work that's being done on
the ground, and my friend Elsa Collins, she has organized
multiple trips out there to really understand and gather as
much information as possible so we can accurately be able
to tell that story to the communities who in fact
(04:23):
will want to donate and be a part of you know,
the resources that are sitting down there and some of
the stories of the LGBTQ community who would arrive and
be at a regular shelter. You know, the word pretty
eye opening. I was just in awe that this was,
you know, happening to the community. And thank God, right
so that some of these shelters really came and really
(04:46):
we're able to specialize and mobilize as quickly as you described,
because the stories were just incredibly sobering. But um, I
appreciate you bringing that up because there is so much
about the border and so much about their stories that
has been kind of in many ways not just marginalized,
but now their percentages, their numbers, they're not necessarily a
(05:06):
human story behind it. So it's a very um it's
a very disturbing conversation when we hear it on the
mainstream we here in the news because it's not human driven,
even though it is a humanitarian crisis. Mr mm hmm. Yeah,
great point, Wilmer. And to bring the focus back to Christina,
I mean, in her story, we heard her talk about
the lack of safe housing for LGBTQ migrants and how
(05:30):
gas Arkoitis was founded to fill that lack, right, And
so today we're all here talking about the grave lack
of services, housing and other essential services that migrants all
too often don't have, especially LGBTQ migrants. And it was
clear for being in conversation with Christina that she's all
about being of service for her community. Which leads me
to a question for both of you, MM and lindsay,
(05:53):
what drove you to become attorneys and more specifically use
your skills to advocate for migrants? And MM, let's start
with you. Sure. Yeah, it's always like it feels a
big question to answer and also really simple in that's
weird ways. I'll try and be brief. My illegal career
was kind of book ended with assisting asylum seekers and migrants.
I started out very briefly working in an international context
(06:14):
with you n HCR and then more locally in New York,
and then kind of took a turn and became a
public defender doing criminal defense work and did that for
quite some time, UM, and then kind of went back
into it a bit within my own office, doing some
more like how the intersections of criminal and immigration work,
and then starting in about two thousand and sixteen, the
(06:36):
organization I now work for, a transgender law center, began
responding to individual caravans of LGBT migrants that were heading
towards the border. Coming out of some of that, I
was involved only really as a volunteer in some of
those responses that TLC and some other organizations and j
C and and an organization called Familia Trans Queer Liberation Movement,
(06:58):
And there's started to be conversations around like there must
be a better way to do this, Like we know
that LGBT communities are leaving countries, and I think something
to remember is that lgbt Q migrants leave countries because
of the same reasons as everyone else, plus whatever discrimination
and persecution they faced. So you know, we were like,
(07:18):
there's gotta be a way, right, So all of that
was swirling. Um. I then came down to the border
when there was the October two thousand eighteen caravan, and
at that time it really very much felt like, you know,
I don't know, I don't want to be like super
spiritual about it, but a bit of a calling. I mean,
like our country was trapping people, blocking people doing everything
in the world possible, and it felt as that, well,
(07:41):
there are not a lot of lawyers here. It's kind
of like we all went to the airport when the
Muslim bent happened, and then we all went back to
the airport when the second one happened, And this for
me felt like a bit of a logical extension of that.
It felt like this is the place to be trying
to fight what our country is implementing, um you know,
stones through from the borders. So after about a year,
(08:02):
all of a sudden there was kind of more funding
for the lgbt specific work, and I just happened to
be here and had already kind of been plugged in.
So I was then just incredibly honored and still am
to be trying to create the sort of an lgbt
Q specific programs that works both in Mexico the United States.
And so that's I guess kind of my story. That's
(08:23):
amazing what you're saying about this work being a spiritual calling,
It makes a lot of sense. I'm The honor that
you're talking about really resonates for me, albeit in a
different way. You know, for me as a storyteller, I
get to do something I love every day, which is
talking to people to hear their stories and connect. And
it feels like the biggest honor and dream that I
could have imagined. So I can really feel that kindred
(08:44):
passion you have for your work, and I think that
it's beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing that. And lindsay,
what about you? What has your path been with your work?
I think for me in some ways it's similar when
I hear you talk about it being a calling. I mean,
I feel like I've been an immigration attorney now for
over ten years. I've always been a social justice lawyer.
(09:04):
I've always been a free lawyer UM to my clients,
which is important and for me, what keeps me going
and keeps me in this work is that every single
day I know I'm doing exactly what I'm supposed to
be doing. I founded the organization that I run now
UM Immigrant Defenders Law Center. We call it m Death
in ten I had worked actually at Catholic Charities, at
(09:28):
a religious based organization UM and because of the discrimination
that they were showing towards clients of ours was a
big motivation for us to found an independent organization. I
believe really strongly that representation and access to counsel and
access to justice should be absolutely universal. It should be
you know, justice for all and no exceptions UM. And
(09:50):
that means that people with criminal convictions. That means sometimes
prioritizing communities that are too often left out, particularly black
migrants at the border in lgbt Q migrants. But that
sort of universal representation can't be done within the framework
of organizations that have existed for a long time and
come from, you know, a perspective that discriminates against other people.
(10:13):
And so we founded m deaf in Um with no
idea of the election that was about to come that
would really change our world. But I found it. It
was Susan Alba, my co founder, in our living rooms,
and we over the last six years have grown it
to you know, we have a cross border initiative that
works in Tijuana, Mahikali, and San Diego, and we have
(10:34):
our headquarters in l A and we have over twenty
staff now and almost fifty lawyers that all they do
is provide zealous advocacy and representation to thousands of people
who otherwise will be forced to go into immigration court alone.
Well and mm, how about the work that the Transgender
(10:54):
Law Center does and more specifically Border Battleflies. Yeah, absolutely,
a Border Butterflies is a transnactional I mean, one of
the important things is we really are a coalitional project
and it's anchored by Transgender Law Center and Familia trans
Queer Liberation Movement to ql M, which is based out
of l A. So our project began in Earnest in
(11:15):
mid late two thousand nineteen, and the goal is really
to a company and support LGBTQ migrants from wherever we
make contact to where they're you know, have safety and stability,
and that can look a lot of different ways. The
vast majority of folks that we do encounter in our
project are intending and do want to go to the
United States, but we always leave open based on policies
(11:38):
and politics around immigration status in Mexico and various other
things that sometimes people may want to stay. So what
that looks like, how it's really shaped out, is we
do Obviously, the core of TLC's role is legal, so
a lot of that is has always intended to be
in remains like trying to prep people, give people information,
sometimes work on a little bit of their asylum case,
(12:01):
but at a minimum, get documents understand you know, one
individual we worked with, for example, had a really serious
medical condition and we had all those records and we
have the releases and so when they did end up
in detention. We could really quickly respond because he started
getting shuffled all over and I could say, I already
have these releases. We don't have to figure out how
to get to Mississippi, you know. So that's an example
of kind of legal protection, legal preparation. We certainly helped
(12:24):
connect two attorneys if we don't represent them ourselves, and
then it's really turned into a lot of protection within Mexico.
I think a lot of people discussed within Mexico talking
about a Southern Wall, which is the southern border of Mexico,
and that's moving into Guatemala. And so you have a
trans woman from Nicaragua who's trying to get here, and
we do a lot of you know, working with partners
(12:45):
to try and get someone facilitate, right, like we can't
help with travel, but really just trying to protect them
as they get through Mexico. And then a lot of
what we do is connection. People know they can reach out.
And I think something about this project done anyone who
does this work. I'm sure Lindsay has had this experience
as well, is like migration is not direct. People do
(13:05):
not go in straight lines. We had one woman who
was in Tijuana, then she was in Mexico City for
part of the pandemic. She ended up in Piedras Negras,
which is another part of the border. Mexican border official
took away her idea and deported her back to Honduras.
We're now supporting her and Honduras trying to help her
get back to Mexico. You know, I mean, it's a
zig zag, right. I'm just so so happy that in
(13:26):
a way she had people to reach out to, she
knew who we were. We just kind of stayed in
contact when she was in Mexico City, we stayed in
contact when she was in Pios Negras, and then we're
able to try and support with partners. That's a lot
of what we do is kind of connection protection and
then legal support. Wow, what an incredible initiative. And that
(13:46):
you maintain contact through all the steps of this migration process, which,
as you point out, it's not direct, it's a zig zag.
Must be difficult, but so important for the migrants that
you're assisting to know that you're always there for them
each step of the way, and shows how interconnected the
work you both do is. Because MM you're in Tijuana
and lindsay, you're in l A, but you're both working
(14:07):
together for a common goal. And this also circles back
to Christina, who is a big component of bridging together
your work by providing safe housing to LGBTQ migrants as
they wait on their asylum cases. We heard Christina talk
about her pandemic family, right the migrants who were all
granted asylum in the United States after being with her
for a year. So lindsay, can you explain more about
(14:30):
what happens once folks like Christina's pandemic family arrive in
the US and how m deaf supports these folks during
the process. Yeah, and in many ways when people finally
are able to cross into the U. S. And l say, finally,
because I'm shocked that we've gone this far into this
interview without either MM or I bringing up, you know,
a naming title forty two, which is the racist Trump
(14:53):
policy that is now a Biden policy and being really
championed by them, which has shut down our board under
the false pretense that it's about stopping the spread of COVID,
but it's really an anti asylum seeker, anti black, anti
immigration policy. It is not a public health policy, and
that's what's led to years worth of people waiting to
(15:15):
come in. And there was a brief window of time
where certain folks we were able to get in through
an exemption system, and that has now ended. And so
right now, you know, I was inn Tiquana on Tuesday.
We were doing no your rights presentations and at the end,
the first question everybody had is so when will I
be able to seek asylum? And literally my answer is, well,
(15:37):
nobody knows. And can you imagine getting that answer from
a lawyer, Well, you're sitting in a shelter with your kids,
and these folks that I was talking to weren't even
in a shelter. There in a refugee camp that is
at a closed port of entry in Tijuana. Right now,
this situation is so dire. But for folks who you know,
I would say, are lucky to have made it through
(15:58):
at this point, because it's so few people who are
able to access any sort of protection, it really starts
another phase of an unjust journey that they have to
go through. And just this morning I was in the
downtown l A court house, sitting and observing what's called
the dedicated docket, which is a new docket that's specifically
(16:18):
for asylum seeking families. So almost every single person I
saw in court this morning was unrepresented, was a mom
with literally holding a baby. And those folks are expected
to walk into an immigration courtroom. All of them have
ankle monitors on which when you have somebody go through
the trauma of this journey and then get to the
United States and be digitally incarcerated with an angle monitor
(16:41):
that beeps when they go too far, it's not charged,
it's really horrifying. But folks then are expected to go
into an immigration court room and unless they are able
to find counsel either because they have means in their family,
which is usually country specific. It's certain asylum seekers from
certain countries will have the community funds or the family
(17:05):
funds to get an attorney. But for the vast majority,
in particularly Central American asylum seekers, who make up the
majority of folks on that dedicated docket, they're expected to
go into court and while you know, balancing their infant
on their hip, I swear to tell the truth, and
then they're defending themselves, and the stakes are they could
be sent back with their baby who their breastfeeding, back
(17:28):
to a country where they could be killed, and they
have to go in and there's a paid government, highly
trained attorney whose job it is to get them deported,
and they need to go in and represent themselves in
a language that they often do not understand, and looking
at documents that they may or may not be able
to read. And today, after every hearing he would ask
(17:50):
to people want more time to find an attorney, and
the judge would then hand them a list of organizations
in Los Angeles that provide pro bono legal services. And
m DEF is the large this organization in l A
that provides pro bono legal services to folks in the
l A immigration courts. And I had already told the
judge before the first hearing a week ago when I
(18:10):
was there, that we have absolutely no capacity, and that
I have confirmed with all of the other organizations no
one has capacity. And yet every single family was handed
that list and told to call all the organizations and
see if they could find an attorney to represent them,
and if they can't, they come back in six weeks
and they represent themselves. So when we say like the
system itself is designed to deport people, that's why it's
(18:34):
not designed to adjudicate asylum claims. It's designed to deter
people from actually accessing protection at all. We'll be right
back after this break. Welcome back to Essential Voices. I've
had an opportunity to sit in these core rooms just
to listen, and sometimes it's like, I hate to say,
but it's like literally a car factory and he breaks
(18:55):
my heart because they're sitting there and they're waiting for
a moment in front of the judge, and the judge
does into a make eye contact with them at all.
They just do their protocol three or four sentences and
then they give it another date. Oh, it is what
it is. It was very emotional for me to be
in those rooms and see how many cases they see
a day without any real hearing, and they call them hearings,
(19:16):
you know, which is really intense. But Mr, thanks for
sharing that experience with us. Wilmer. You know, it sounds
like we're talking about trauma now, the trauma that migrants
experienced during this asylum process. Lindsay you mentioned this trauma,
and Wilmer, you're alluding to it now when you talk
about sitting in the courtroom watching these cases as an outsider,
(19:38):
you can still feel it deeply. Trauma informed care seems
necessary to the work that both of you MM and
Lindsay are doing on a daily basis. And mental health resources,
which is perhaps an umbrella term covering aspects of trauma
and informed care, was also a big component of what
Christina mentioned that Casaquites offers their residence. So for you
(19:59):
at m F Lindsay, you have a program that specifically
addresses trauma called the Family Unity Project. Could you share
more about this program and how you address trauma and
your work and MM, if you'd like to add anything
in afterwards, please jump in. It's really compounded trauma lots
of times, particularly by the time people are joining our
(20:21):
communities and here in l A or throughout Southern California,
because often there's the trauma of the original reason that
the person had to flee their country. People have fled
for so many different reasons, but they carry that with
them and there's such profound loss also a loss of community,
loss of family when people have to leave, and then
(20:43):
the journey itself can be so traumatic. And I'm sure
MM can talk more about, you know, just some of
the specifics that folks face, especially now being trapped in
Tijuana and other cities, but once folks get here, we
really try and support in a variety of way is
But in death we also recognize that we are ultimately
(21:05):
a social justice law firm, and so we're best served
when we work collaboratively with others who are experts UM
in providing services. So we have an entire case management
unit and their job is to ensure that our clients
are referred to the best organizations that can provide culturally competent,
comprehensive medical, mental health, housing, food security programs UM and
(21:30):
so they are very busy making sure that our clients
can do that or receive all those services. But the
reason that that's so important is because if somebody is
unable to have mental health treatment, access the medications that
they need, access the services they need, be in therapy,
they're unable to participate meaningfully in the biggest fight of
(21:51):
their lives, which is defending themselves against deportation. So we
want to be able to provide something to our families
that we work with that gets them to a place
where they can meaningfully participate. And the Family Unity Project
that you mentioned that was actually born out of the
family separation crisis, and that project specifically works with families
(22:14):
that we helped to reunite. The kids were all over
the country, parents were detained all over the country, And
because l A is such a receiving site for so
many migrants from all over the world, we have a
large population of families that were ripped apart at the
border in and who have been reunited and are still
recovering from that, and so we are still fighting for
(22:35):
them not to get deported, even after they were so
gravely harmed. And we also have expanded that project to
recognize that every single time somebody ends up in an
ice present because they're you know, ripped off the streets
of l A. They're picked up on their way to
drop their kids off at school. When that happens, it
is really another family separation. And so we want to
(22:57):
recognize that and recognize that incarcerating people in ice prisons,
forcing people to remain in Mexico, forcing people to not
be able to access the system at all um and deportations,
all of those are forms of family separation. And you know,
I often say I want to channel the outrage of
that everybody had in ten and be like, it's still happening.
It's happening every day. It's happening right now in the
(23:19):
courtroom in downtown l A. It's happening in Wanda. Those
family separations are happening, and the urgency is still here,
still under Biden. M Wow, powerful, Thank you so much
for providing that context. Lency. It's truly incredible work that
you're doing in the face of such dire situations with
the family separations that you're describing. Thanks for sharing that. MM.
(23:43):
What are your thoughts? Yeah, I mean one thing that
Christina didn't talk about, which I understand why because of
the focus of her work and how amazing she is.
But there's trauma to her staff, there's trauma to her,
there's trauma to everyone down here. Um, you know. So
one of the things we try and look at is
how can we nimbly engage in trauma practices. So what
(24:04):
little things can we do in our office that might
help somebody just in that moment get through an interview.
And then also we have funding and we're starting to
build a program that would help begin treatment here and
then give them some ability to transfer that to the
United States. So it's like, mental health needs don't end
when someone goes from Mexico to the United States, And
(24:24):
wouldn't it be beautiful if there was some bridge, some
check in, some kind of continuity. And that's kind of
a pipe dream at this point, but we're slowly building
that out, and I think all the shelters are trying
to figure out this really huge need, and I think
that kind of loops back kind of as an endpoint
of staff. I was trained as an attorney, but often
I'm thinking, Okay, this person is, you know, having an
(24:46):
anxiety attack. How can I help mitigate that or address that?
And it's not about my legal skills in that moment, right,
And that's true as well for shelter staff, and that's
true as well for every volunteer is trying to recognize
trauma and recognize behaviors and figure out how can I
intervene in this moment. And in saying all that, I
guess it's important to mention like the incredible resiliency of
(25:08):
people through all of this, So it's really about us,
you know, in dialogue with them, Like you know, some
people don't want a psychologist in the shelter because they're
like I don't know who they're talking to, you know,
like they're employed by the shelter, and then I'm complaining
about the shelter, you know, because I don't like being
in a room with six people. And so it's it's
about being really nimble in our responses and really listening
(25:29):
to communities. You know, what what does mental health look
like to you? What would help you? And a lot
of times people talk about not being able to sleep
or just feeling really anxious all the time. And so
we started doing little groups of just like exercises like
how to slow down your breathing, you know, and a
lot of people really love that. Tapping things like that
that are you know, not so much like I need
a psychiatrist. It's just some sort of intervention. And when
(25:52):
you put it in the context of nobody knows when
they get out of here, t Quana is a spot
sometimes where it's hard because it's like you're going to
get out of Paula and you're struggling to get out
of and you're struggling to get through Mexico and you
get to Tijuana and you can see the US and
then we are like, sorry, we don't know when you're
gonna get there. Because Joe Biden has arbitrarily closed the border,
you know, and that's really hard. Do I get a job,
(26:14):
do I get an apartment? When do I get to leave?
You know? I'm unsafe here, and you know, I think
that also adds a lot of trauma and a lot
of mental health issues, understandably, So thanks so much. I'mm.
What you're saying is about asking folks like what would
help you? What do you need? And that can make
all the difference, right. It's tapping into each person's individual
(26:36):
needs instead of just having one standardized system, because what
works for one person doesn't work for everyone, and that
support doesn't always look like therapy. It can vary for
each person, which also brings us back to Christina and
the focus that Casquities has on bringing joy to their
residence through the arts, and how they found creative ways
to lift their residents spirits during the most anguish filled
(26:57):
times during lockdown and so today, this conversation so far
has touched upon a lot of the ways that immigration
policies actively make situations worse for migrants, contributing to this
anguish that Christina was talking about. But in thinking about
bringing joy during times of anguish, it makes me wonder
what you would both like to see change within immigration policies.
(27:19):
It's a big question. Um, but lindsay, let's start with you.
What changes would you like to see implemented. Yeah, it's
a big question. I mean, we have legislation in Washington
right now and through the reconciliation process. If the Vice
President and the Senate would ignore the unelected parliamentarians advice,
(27:39):
we could have relief for millions of undocumented people living
in the United States. That should absolutely happen, and that
would benefit a lot of people. It's hard sometimes, as
somebody who spends a lot of time at the border
to see even under this administration, this constant need, this
needs or reaction to push back against anybody newly arriving
(28:04):
to the United States, to constantly feel that there's somehow,
some way that you can deter people from seeking protection
when their lives are at risk that you can tell,
you know, it's heartbreaking to see President Biden and Vice
President Harris, who campaigned on this message of We're going
to restore humanity at our border, to be telling people
(28:26):
don't come. Seeing that. It breaks my heart because it's
a very misunderstood idea of what people are fleeing of
what the stakes are. It's a misunderstanding that people think
about what the policy is before they flee for their
lives with their kids in their arms. So I would say, yes,
(28:47):
we need to move forward comprehensive immigration reform. We need
to do that this year under reconciliation. Democrats have to
stop being so scared and just actually do it. But
we also have to remember that the border and people
seeking protection and asylum seekers Title forty two needs to
(29:08):
be rescinded immediately, and we need to figure out a
way to safely welcome people with dignity. And until we
have a policy that puts that as the priority at
our border, we will continue to see undocumented folks having
to live in the shadows in the United States, and
will continue to see the real horror that we see
at the border today. So I think it's like a
(29:30):
two pronged approach that I think is so important. We'll
be right back after this break, Welcome back to Essential Voices.
Thank you Lindsay for shedding light on the current legislation
and what you're two pronged approaches. And although what Lindsay
described applies to LGBTQ migrants as well. Um, what about
U m M. What changes would you like to see
(29:51):
specifically implemented for LGBTQ migrants. Any immigration policy affects lgbt
people either maybe slightly better every now and then, but
mostly worse. And so everything Lindsay just said applies to
every single lgbt Q identified person who's subject to the
immigration system in the United States for sure. Um, I'll
(30:12):
start where I'm at, which is on the Mexico side,
which is plus a million to what Lindsay said, which
is that I think a lot of people don't understand
that the border is closed, and that, you know, because
it isn't right. I can cross today and millions of
truckers can cross today, and your t shirts can cross,
and your avocados cross, but migrants cannot cross, and you
know that's obviously nonsensical. But that is where we're at,
(30:35):
and that at this point is Joe Biden's choice on
a daily basis. So number one, like people need to
get across. People are not safe here. LGBT people are
not exempt. We have a number of Jamaican LGBT individuals
that we are supporting. They do not speak Spanish, they
are not safe. They don't have anywhere to stay. They
have a harder time finding shelters. They don't get a
special across the border pass. So that's my number one.
(30:58):
UM detention is another on where it's not okay for anybody.
It's a car serral system that is unnecessary for asylum seekers.
But we're involved in an end trans detention campaign. There
should not be transgender people in detention. You know, detention,
whether it should be or shouldn't be, is male or female,
and any workaround of that kind of thing doesn't really work.
(31:19):
We have trans men in particular who end up in
solitary confinement for years while they're waiting for their case
to be adjudicated. So no one should be in detention,
but I would say for LGBTQ communities it is disproportionately
difficult to be in detention. UM work authorization is another
one that I think a lot of people are unaware of,
specifically for asylum seekers. The first question we get when
(31:42):
people cross the border, and we've already told them, but
I think they're just like, when how can I go
about getting my work permit? I want to get to
work and get myself up and running. Well, sorry, you can't.
For a really long time. And that's something else that
I think a lot of people don't know, and that's
something that really affects our clients. You we end up saying,
this might take a year to get you a work permit,
(32:03):
and what are you supposed to do in the meantime.
I don't know. This can affect LGBT migrants just as
much as anyone else, but particularly so because they're often
pushed into pretty vulnerable work situations, more at risk of trafficking,
more at risk of policing, more at risk of everything
that affects LGBT communities in the United States. So I
(32:23):
mean the fact that we're preventing people from getting themselves
established right um, we're forcing them to not have an
income or make one under the table is one of
the problems that I think is really important. We make
sure that everyone has a lawyer, but right now there
are not enough. It's hard for people to do it
for very long. It's hard for people to want to
(32:44):
do it to begin with. So I definitely think that
the Immigration Court, I do think it's important. And the
reason I put that on my list actually was that
I think people would be shocked how many people within
the LGBTQ communities identifying as gay or trans, or we
were in some way lose their cases. We run across
people all the time in Mexico. Of the hundreds of
(33:07):
people in our project right now, we have people who
were in detention and gave up because they thought a
guard was going to sexually assault them, or did sexually
assault them, or they were bullied in detention, or it
was just too hard. People who were staying with family
members who it turned out were absolutely not affirming of
their identities and they left. People who just lost because
(33:27):
judges have quotas in certain You know, the immigration system
is not equal in all parts of the United States.
The law is the same, but it is not applied
the same. And we have people all the time who
tell me, well that I didn't have a lawyer and
the judge told me I needed evidence, or the judge
didn't believe me, or I didn't highlight being gay as
much as other things because it was like in a
(33:48):
courtroom and I don't know these people. So I think
people would be absolutely shocked. I think even among attorney
communities sometimes I hear, well, yeah, i'll take a queer
case because you know, you'll win that and it's like,
well sometimes yes, you know, but they can be really difficult.
And we have a lot of people trying to re
enter the United States because they were deported and got
back to wherever they left to begin with, and you know,
nothing was better. And so I really do think fair
(34:11):
and more robust legal services are really important, although absolutely
not an answer to to the greater systemic issue. There's
so much about immigration and that conversation. There's just tons
of scenarios and categories and people you know that have
their reasons and different soulful reasons for the hy to migrate.
(34:34):
And when I think about just a hopeful image that
both of you represent for your clients, just to have
a meeting, to sit down with you, to have a coffee,
to just be heard and have you really to create
some type of roadmap. Okay, we're gonna, we're gonna watch
this way, we're gonna we'renna see how far we get.
That alone can keep so many of our people alive.
(34:57):
You know, that's the beacon, that's the image, that's what
you wanted. End of the road. You just want to
see a little bit of a light. And also people
bring that to these communities. And I'm excited that we
were able to shane so much light on on so
much of the infrastructure that has been fractured over and
over again, and that it continues to crumble every time.
We're going to an administration that says, Okay, we're gonna
(35:18):
fix it. You know, that's the first thing we're gonna do,
and then all of a sudden they get hit with
the mandate and uh, it starts getting pushed lower and
lower and lower. Meanwhile, people are going to sleep and
waking up, going to sleep and waking up, you know
in the border, waiting and these shelters for just a
conversation that moves the needle forward. So I'm proud and
blessed to have been listening to your wisdom. Thank you
(35:40):
for being able to paint such a picture for everyone
who's listening to this um. So two things, One is
how can the community continue to support the work that
you're doing. And briefly, also when message do you have
to those futured leaders who at some point may sit
where you're sitting and might be part of that change
or that light that hope that you bring these communities.
(36:02):
And we'll start withnes see I think there are so
many things that people can do to get involved with
this work and to support our work. One of them
is just to follow on social media and donate to
organs that are doing the work on the front lines
right now in this moment because of the crisis we're
seeing with Haitian migrants, and specifically encourage folks to donate
(36:23):
to black let organizations that are leading the fight for
justice for those communities Haitian Bridge Alliance, the Black Alliance
for Just Immigration, and Undocy Black or three that I
would say people should be following them and looking for
calls to action from those organizations. But beyond um sort
of lifting things up on social media and using your
(36:44):
platforms and for folks you know in the industry telling
authentic stories about what's happening at the border. I would
also say that you know, it really starts in your
own communities. If you're you know in a place like
Los Angeles or New York or Miami, you have asylum
sekers in your commu unity, you have unaccompanied children who
are going to the same school as your kids are
going to, So reach out to those families, reach out
(37:07):
to organizations like in dep that are doing the work
in your community and ask them like, are there folks
who need a ride to immigration court. People don't realize
that if someone can't get to immigration court, their ordered
deported in their absence. So sometimes you can help save
someone's life by picking them up and driving them where
they need to go. Bring a kid to their asylum interview,
(37:29):
Invite a family that you can tell is recently arrived
for dinner at your house. Because all of that is
an important part of integrating people into our communities, of
making them feel welcome, and of doing it with dignity,
which is something that's not happening. It's something our government
is not doing, so we as community members should be
doing it. And in regards to what I would say
(37:50):
to you know, especially um someone who's considering going into
this line of work, I often hear lawyers like kind
of make this joke that someone told me they were
going to go to law school and and I told
them not to. And every time I see that joke,
I actually feel the exact opposite. I feel like I
have the best job in the entire world. Yes, it's hard,
it is traumatizing, it is oftentimes heart wrenching, but I
(38:15):
know every single day when I wake up, I'm doing
exactly what I'm supposed to be doing. And so we
need more people in this fight. We need more people
who are culturally competent, we need people who speak the languages,
We need more people that have experienced this themselves to
be doing this work, and more allies to choose this
(38:36):
career path. And that also means that we need to
financially support the organizations because we have to make this
type of social justice work accessible to everyone, even those
who come from the communities we serve, and that requires
us being able to pay fair salaries and be fair
to our workers as well. Thanks Samam. It's really just
(38:57):
about really amplifying and standing solidarity and standing in community
with folks, whatever that looks like to you. So for me,
it's a lawyer, and for someone else in my staff
it's therapist, and that's not something I would be probably
very good at um. So I just really think that
there's a place for everyone. And in terms of really
how to help now, kind of transitioning into that part
(39:19):
of the question, I really encourage people that it's local first.
You know your community the best, and there are immigrants everywhere.
I am from Idaho. There are immigrants there. People don't
know that, but there are. You know, there are immigrants
in Iowa, in Nebraska, in Texas, everywhere, and obviously there
are certain places there are concentration of migrants and nationalities.
(39:42):
There are also immigrants from everywhere. So I really encourage
people to look locally first. And as you do that,
you know, it's like amazing what happens. I think people
suddenly are in state capitals. It happens all the time.
People are like, I went to court with the person
that I'm sponsoring, and oh my god, I have never
se and anything so horrific. And then they do like
a petition and then they get the school to pass
(40:04):
us something, and then they're in Congress, so you know
what I mean. So I really encourage people to start
with what you know the best. I don't think you
have to come to Mexico necessarily, right. And the other
thing that I really encourage people to do is very
few calls can move a congressman or a senator. A
small amount of people can really affect these things, and
(40:24):
it's really important to understand the issues. I have never
heard anything explained so terribly so across the board. You know.
I was in a doctor's office the other day and
people who thought they'd watched the news and thought they
knew what was going on at the border with respect
to migrants, it didn't. And so it's just really important,
you know, to take the time and to try and
(40:45):
really ask questions and really look at it in my
view through a lens of what would I want for myself,
what would I want for a neighborhood. And I think
it's not about the law, and it's not about politics.
It really is that I definitely wholeheartedly recommend following the
three organizations Lindsay brought up Patient Bridge, UNDOCU, Black Bag
or Black Alliance for Justice for Immigrants LGBTQ specific is
(41:08):
the Black LGBT Migrant Project, who also does a ton
of work around these things. There's some translet organizations Familia,
t QLM, CASA Ruby, a number of others. That is
a really great place to start reach out. How can
I help you trans queer plubload as all kinds of
stuff in the Southwest. And I bring those up because
those are people often with immigrant experiences, who speak indigenous languages,
(41:32):
but almost always do not have any funding. They are
doing it after the three jobs they have to support
their family because they see it as urgent, they see
it as non negotiable. But we all need to help
amplify and lift up that work. So if you don't
have time, donate to who you know is doing good work.
But I really think there are so many amazing trends
(41:53):
and queer lead organizations on both sides of the border
who are just doing this after they're off their second
shift and took their kids to soccer practice and then
they're out of the detention center parking not to pick
someone up and just take them to get some food.
And that's one of the things we really try and
do is amplify those voices and those folks because they're
the ones who can really speak to what's going on
and the actual experience of these folks. Fantastic, Thank you, maam.
(42:17):
Thank you Lindsay so much for your time and uh
my gratitude for all that you do and for being
with us today. Wow, just wow. I'm hunting by Lindsay's
words of the system being so broken that having a
good lawyer just isn't enough and they aren't even enough
(42:37):
lawyers to go around the much less services for lgbt
Q plus migrants and a silent seekers wanting to be
grounded a sailing in the United States. Yeah, and this
is why I'm all the more grateful for organizations like
the Trench Gender Law Center, Border Butterflies, the Immigrant Defenders
Law Center and CASS. And then we get to have
conversations like the one we had today, me too, and
(42:59):
go them back to the heart of this many series.
I love that the name of Christina Space is casaar
coites har Coit is in Spanish means rainbow, so a
rainbow feels like a fit in metaphor for the hope
he provides, hope that both Lindsay and m M give
me with their work exactly a rare but beautiful site
(43:19):
after the storm passes. To our listeners, please support Christina's
work at Casa Quities by following them on social media
at Albergue Casa Quities that's a l P E R
g U E C A S A A R C
O I R I S on Instagram, or donating if
(43:40):
you can. Any support goes a very long way, and
their doors are always open. Follow m M's work with
the Transgender Law Center at trans Law Center and Lindsay's
work with M Deaf at M def Underscore Law Center.
That's I Am M d e f Underscore Law Center,
(44:01):
both on Instagram. Well, that wraps up our mini series Kites.
We hope you enjoyed it as Mantz we enjoyed making it.
Essential Voices with Wilma val Drama is produced by me
M R. Raquel, Alison Shano, and Kevin Rotkowski, with production
support from associate producer Lillian Holman. Executive producers Wilmer val Drama,
(44:23):
Adam Reynolds, Leo Clem and Aaron Hilliard. This episode was
edited by M. R. Raquel and Sean Tracy and features
original music by Will Risotti. Special thanks to last week's
essential voice, Cristina Franco Abounds from Casa Arkoitis in Tijuana,
and to our thought leaders for this episode Lindsay t.
Slavski from the Immigrant Defenders Law Center and amm To
(44:46):
Pue Maris from the Transgender Law Center. Additional thanks to
Yolanda Celene Walter, mead Letty Martinez and Mossio, Chris Chambers,
Anna Barry, Lorena Bordevie, Renee Garcia, and Nila Goshall. This
is a claim Aimer and w V Entertainment Production in
partnership with I Heart Radio's Michael Dura podcast Network. For
(45:06):
more podcasts from I heart, visit the i heart Radio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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