May 13, 2025 • 30 mins
In this explosive first installment, ECW Original Tommy Cairo joins Francine on Eyes Up Here to peel back the curtain on one of wrestling's most notorious promotions. Cairo dives into the gritty, untold stories from backstage in early ECW — from locker room politics to intense rivalries — and reveals why, despite walking similar paths in the same hardcore battleground, two extreme warriors never crossed paths… until now. It’s raw, it’s real, and it’s as extreme as it gets.
Whether you're a longtime ECW fan or new to the chaos, you won’t want to miss Part 1 of this candid, no-holds-barred conversation.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:32):
Hey there, this is the Queen of Extreme Fra eteen
and you.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Are listening to Eyes up here with Francine on the
iHeart Rating Network or wherever you get the podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
I'm usually joined I'm a co host chat, but today
I'm a different co host. I welcome to the show.
Tommy Cairo No. I've had the pleasure of finally meeting.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
This past Saturday can Rant and it was so weird
because I obviously I've watched you on the n c
W to.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Apparently we were there.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
At the same time, but neither of us remember meeting.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
What what I got much later years later was that
we were in some kind of mixed tag I don't remember,
and you were just learning I think, or just you
were actually training to wrestle, right.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
I was until Paul told me not to.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Well, the first thing somebody should done was send you
right out of that building and on your way and
never come back.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
I say that all the time, but you know I changed.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Career path when I met when I when I, uh
not when I met you, but when I read through
could see through your your character that you were too
nice for this.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Thank you. You know you're bringing a bell for me.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
I think I partnered with Tommy Dreamer, Yes and maybe yeah,
I think so at like one of the high school
gyms or something.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Now I'm so glad that you don't remember it either,
because then I would be like, wow, I'm shot. I
can't remember nothing. So you don't remember it either.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
You triggered my memory because now I am remembering that. Yeah, okay,
so we did.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Meet, Yeah, but I don't.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
I don't remember you being around much.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Well, I figure, you gotta figure. I was this since
ninety two.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Right, and I started in late ninety three.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
So ninety two ninety three, but ninety four I was
probably one of my busiest years there. This is weird
that whole year would stand man with Singapore came. I mean,
Dreamer was nowhere in the picture at that point. We
did so a solid year of that. You had to
I imagine you were there.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
I was there. I was I I'm still training.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Yeah you must have not been been with Dreamer yet then. No. No.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
When I started, I started as a plant. They put
me in the crowd as Stevie Richard's girlfriend, and that
was in ninety five. But before then they had me
like for a year and a half, I was doing
house shows, just filling in and you know.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Doing little.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
I was gone on ninety five.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Okay, all right, that's what I work.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
And I did you know I was a rebel like
I did. First of all, I have a background as
union electrician. I put cell phone towers on top of
Giant Stadium. So I did that kind of work for
many years. And I have a pension because of that.
So I don't make any bones about it. I had
(03:59):
so many opportunities. I could have taken advantage of it,
but I could not walk away from the money that
I was making. And I met my wife in eighty nine.
I was only in the business three years at that point.
And then you know, I went to Japan, I did ECW,
and I but my career in my Just to give
you an idea, my wife went to see HER's sister
(04:20):
up in North Jersey and she went to some memorabilia place.
It wasn't Tommy Fierro's place, somewhere else, and she brought
me back a E. CW sticker, and I was like,
I kind of looked at her. She goes, what's the matter,
I don't know, why'd you bring me that? She goes,
I don't know. I just figured, I said, honey, if
for all these years, you know, he used to go
(04:40):
there with a stomach ache. When Poul got there, he
just didn't like me and didn't want to use me correctly.
And I used to go there try not to get
buried and try to get whatever I could out of
it until I could find a way, you know, somewhere
else to go, which I did, and then I just
calmly walked away. But the funny thing is like everybody
(05:01):
that was there kind of hangs their hat primarily on
their time in ECW and I don't you know, and
I don't. I felt like it took me backward.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
I think because you had a bad You're from what
I'm getting just by those couple of sentences, you had
a really negative experience.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Whereas I had a positive experience. And that's why I
praised the company so much.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
But I want to backtrack with you.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
You were good with Todd Gordon.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Go with Todd, and I was great with Eddie.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Okay, okay, So then Eddie leaves.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
Right, I was there that night. Well I can say
is this. I don't know, nobody's ever said it, but
Paul's very lucky that Doug didn't put him through a
wall because Doug Gilbert was pissed off beyond repair, just really,
and I thought it was gonna erupt in to something,
you know, ugly, but it did.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
And I don't know why though, Why why.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Not? Because Paul fired Eddie, Paul took Getty's place. Now,
I don't know the circumstances. I've heard a lot of
different things. Doesn't concern me. My thing is, I could
sum up my time there with the fact that I
never went in through that back door. I answered, where
(06:29):
do people go in? Every time? Because I had a wife,
I married her. I met her in eighty nine, we
got engaged in in a year, and married in ninety one,
so I've been with her forever. I've been guilty of
many things, but I have never ever been unfaithful to
my wife. I don't go in places where there's women.
(06:53):
I don't go to bars, I don't go to clubs.
Good for you, you know I did all that. I
bounced for twelve years, eight years in Manhattan. So I mean,
you know, there's no there's there's no good comes from them.
And I'm a Christian. You know we don't do that, right,
So My point is they knew how I was then,
and that I had a wife, and I didn't bring
(07:14):
my wife one week and then have a rat with
me the next week, my wife one week and cozy
enough to one of the whatever. I didn't live my
life like that. I didn't want to see it. I
don't want to be a part of it. I don't
want to be privy to it. I don't want to
know nothing. There was many times I stayed in the
hotel across the street from where everybody was staying various places,
(07:36):
because I don't I didn't need somebody knocking on my
door at three o'clock in the morning with a with
a crack pipe. You know.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
So did the boys look at you as being anti social?
Speaker 3 (07:48):
No? No, because Hack and I got in trouble for
hanging out together in Philly when he was supposed to
be blind, and everybody, you know how serious they took
it back then and we got he from whoever got
back to the got back to Todd or Paulie that
you know we're because we hung out together, my wife
(08:08):
Laurie and him. We stayed at the house. You know,
they went shopping together. You know, we were tight and
you know. But here's the thing, all right, And I
don't want to dwell one hundred percent on you know,
ECW because so many other things are going on in
my life that are so positive. But I'll say this,
(08:29):
and I say this with confidence that there's not too
many people that were rebuke this or have a rebuttal
Paul would have liked to have getting gotten rid of
me a lot sooner, right. I wouldn't quit until I
felt I was ready to go, and he wouldn't fire me.
(08:49):
And I'll tell you what. He was scared to death
of me, okay, And the people that knew me knew
that there was really wasn't anybody in that lack of
locker room that can challenge me. And that's for real.
I don't care who's this and who's a gangster, and
let somebody tell me otherwise. And with one leg today,
I'll whit their ass. And I hate to be like that,
(09:11):
but when you got these phony tough guys walking around,
you got and I look around today and I see
what everybody looks like. And I've been through hell, right,
And I don't touch anything. I smoke my weed and
that's all I do. No pills, no, nothing. So you know,
somebody came up to me. I'm not gonna mention any names.
(09:31):
You were there. Somebody came up to me and asked
me for drugs. And that's the only reason the perstone
was there. And I said, because Carl, you always got drugs.
I go, bro, that's fucking thirty years ago. Excuse my language,
it's thirty years ago. What do you mean? So there
are some of those people are still living that same life.
(09:52):
And I didn't do that, not snorting cocaine off for
hooker's asses. Sorry, yeah, fine, And you're fine.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
So you're not a problem from what I understand. You
get it work, okay, You go to work, You do
your job. You don't argue about the angle, whatever is
thrown at you. You're a team player, you do it.
Why did you have such a problem with Paul?
Speaker 3 (10:18):
I don't know. There's something that he didn't like about me,
and it was evident, and I, like I said, and
you know, I stood up and mopened my mouth so
many times in that locker room. And I want to
tell you who is it that when you see Paul
standing up there on it, you know, stairway and at
one video and you see Terry Funk looking up at him.
(10:41):
I'm like, even Terry Funk was mesmerized. I don't get it.
I don't get it. What did Paul do that was
so great? He ripped off a lot of people. He
hurt good people into business, like Dennis Cortluzzo. Here's the
guy that goes into business for themselves, for himself because
(11:01):
he doesn't know what it's like to be in the rent.
It's not a worker. Never got to dance every Saturday
night or or handle one out. And that's the way
I worked. I worked, you know, it's a it's a fight,
and I was happy to do that. And I did
anything they asked within reason. But I was going when
I wanted to go. And the truth is I walked
(11:23):
up because I couldn't walk. My back was shot at
the time I needed. I couldn't even go to all
my work on my regular job. So I mean, I'm
just saying that, you know, Todd, I think should have
held on to some more guys. And when they say, oh,
I didn't do anything until Paul got there, really look
(11:44):
at look at some of the matches. Look at some
of the Singapore Canyon matches. Match I had a dreamer
all over the building and tell me that they weren't drawing.
We're doing the same twelve thirteen hundred, whatever it was,
and we were doing just as good with Eddie, and
then that happened, and then for me, for a lot
of other guys, it was good. You know, it's like
(12:06):
anything else when the change of the changing of the
guard comes, sweet clean new broom, sweeps clean, boom, and
it bring your guys in. And I have no problem
with that, but I just there was a lot of
shit going on with that I didn't like. They knew
I didn't like it, so maybe therefore they looked at
me like I was definitely not a prude. But it's
(12:27):
not bad. But I have a wife. I bring her
with me here. I'm not coming back next week without
her and doing anything I'm not supposed to do, right,
I'm not gonna be. And there's a lot of shit
that went on that should never going on. You know,
I look at it like this. I'm not I'm not
naming anybody any names, just in general. Yeah, anytime you
(12:51):
have a girl whos either underage and you have more
than one guy in a room, first of all, I
don't know what kind of lifestyle these people leave. But
I think you've got to be a half a fag
to want to be in a room with another guy
and a girl, let alone, three girls, three guys. I
don't know, whatever, whatever, maybe that's cool. Maybe they think
that's cool. That sounds like schoolboy stuff, you know what
(13:14):
I'm saying now, a lifestyle to live, you know, the
rest of your life. And I don't know that they
all do. But I see a lot of sorry looking people,
and I just I'm just glad that I made the cut,
I got my atget oh, And.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
I understand that, right, but that shouldn't interfere with what
goes on at work.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
That's to me, that's.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Like leisure time, right. And I'm not saying it's correct.
I'm not saying it's.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
A right way to live or with it, you know whatever.
But what happens at.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
The arena should not affect you the way like if
you hung out afterwards, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Like they you know a lot of stuff so to speak,
might have been swept under the rug or whatever because
it's the boys, and you know, like we've all seen stuff.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
I've seen things that I just shook my head and
wasn't a part of. But it's the boys, and that
was the excuse all these years, you know, the boys
would be the boys or whatever.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Well, what happens when it's later in life and you're
a father now and you've got girls. Listen, we cannot
deny the fact that throughout history pro wrestling there are
broken women.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Oh no, stop, I am not justifying what might not
have happened to any of those girls or what.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
You know, a lot of this stuff I wasn't privy
to because I wasn't the part. I wasn't on the
party side. I didn't do the drugs or you know,
the the.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
You know, excessive alcoholism and stuff like that. Like that
wasn't my scene. And I think that's part of the
reason why I'm still sitting here today.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
No, I didn't, I mean, but but what my question to.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
You is, you know you didn't want to come around that,
and I understand that, and that's very admirable of you.
But when you get to the wrestling part, like you
had that that whole thing with with sand Man, I'm
eating peaches in the backyard, like I remember that promo.
I laughed like hell at that promo. I thought it
was very clever stuff like that. Do you feel like
(15:30):
if Paul did not come in and Eddie still had
the book, do you feel like that company would have
taken off the way it did when Paul came into play,
Because you seem like, like, I'm not knocking your opinion.
Everybody's lay out an opinion, but I feel like you're
you're just not given Paul enough credit for taking it
(15:52):
to the next level. And even Todd said, because I
love Todd to death and what happened between those two,
that's their thing, you know. But when when somebody asked,
Todd's always like, well, Paul took it to the next level.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Okay, well no, no, but that doesn't mean anything more
than he took it to the next level.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
I mean, why do you're you're saying to me, like,
like that scene from Beyond the Mat when Paul is
standing on the uh the staircase in the back right
and we're all standing there and we're all looking at
him with love in her eyes. That was and you're
you're seeing you're making a face. I can explain why
(16:42):
I felt the way I did. It was because it
was our first pay per view and when I started there,
like they were given away hot dogs and soda to
get people in the building and then to see us
get so far as to do a pay per view.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
It part of the cup, but in the end you
beat people out of money that never got paid back.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
I understand, but you're you're fast forwarding.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
Yeah, but it's all the person that I saw and
what I saw, what I experienced. Sorry, so is what
you're showing me on him? Never?
Speaker 2 (17:19):
No, no, no, I'm not trying to I'm trying to
explain to you my feeling that EI and you're welcome.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
To your fure. We can't like everybody the same. I mean, sure,
you know, and I was a young man who wanted
to show I showed my respect from day one. Daviel
Hanners just stayed a comment how long he's known me
since I was a kid. I'm respectful. I love the business,
but I just don't see what It's just not that
(17:49):
big a deal. I mean, because it took off the
way did. It was something different at a time that
where something different was needed was already being done in
Japan for years or uh that's where he got the idea,
and you took a lot of guys that were built
the company coming from t w A and then starting
(18:11):
up with Todd that were still pretty good, and we're
a lot of them were as good as the guys
that Pull replaced him with. But it's like I said,
the changing of the guard, and I wasn't part of that,
but there was. To me, there was more to it.
And instead of just telling me what it was you
you tried to borry me. And I wouldn't let that
hat put me in a hard hat. Do this? Do that?
(18:33):
Put you know, you got me a one week, I'm
a month on top of the next minute, you want
me to put chat Uston over, no problem, I put
him over. I don't care, you know, I just don't
see the big deal. I see him guys on TV
that's making obviously a lot of money, and never even
made an attempt to let me look and see my
(18:55):
list because you never kept one, because you didn't care,
because you're working to worry about paying Peeople back. I
just and I wasn't old I'm not own anything. But man,
I hear it. It's not like it's not true. I
know of somebody that I know for sure has quite
a bit of money, and some of them are dead.
So you know, yeah, to me, that doesn't that doesn't
(19:17):
ring true as a as a as a good person.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
To me, I understand your opinion.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
I was trying to get out of you, the the
discrepancies between the two of you, because you were a
little vague in the beginning, but now you're opening up
a little more and you're telling me he's putting you
in these these gimmicks that you don't like. You have
to put people over, but you're doing it because you're
a team player. So in other words, your relationship with
Paul was strictly like a boss and an employee, and
(19:46):
you're basically doing everything he's telling you to do, and
you felt like he was burying you in the process.
Speaker 3 (19:54):
Well, I felt like it was trying to but that
that didn't happen because I took the stupid hard hat
and work jacket and just wore it and came in
and peachers wore one, and you know, nobody laughed, nobody
liked it, but it just wasn't It made no sense.
None of it made any sense. You took a guy
that had came in with chaps and you know, let
(20:15):
jacket and do rag. I was in shape I could
do just about anything you wanted to. Cut my thumble,
cut myself. I didn't care. And when Todd saw me,
he even said it on the timeline thing. He said,
I went down and brought Damien Stone with me, little Wido.
He said, he looked like they were working for ten
years together and tore the house down, and I hired
(20:37):
him immediately. What happened to that? What happened to that? See,
that's my point, Like I was there and then I wasn't,
and it was a matter of everything changing. And I
think with Eddie, and I can't say whether or not
he would have destroyed it or it would have done
(20:58):
good or And I'll tell you the truth. If things
were different and things had gone differently and I could
have been utilized to my abilities, it could have been
a different story. And if Paul didn't fail and end
up bankrupt and end up owning people money, maybe I'd
have a different opinion of the things that I've seen
(21:20):
over over the years. I just don't not not not
a favorite person of mine. I get it, And obviously
I wasn't a favorite person in his, So listen, that's
all right, that's all right. I mean I see Todd.
I saw Todd this week. I love Todd. I mean
me too. Well, I just think it was a better
(21:41):
company and I think it had a better feel to it,
and I think a lot of the ship that came
along with it. I mean, look at I can't say it,
just want I don't want to hurt anybody. You can't
deny the condition of some of the people that we
know in this business. We just saw them.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Yes, I know, I think I know who you're with.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
It's a group that all comes from the same place
and nothing has changed in thirty years. I mean, I
don't get it. And here's my thing, Christine, if you
meet me today, ten years ago, twenty years ago, except
for the fact I was a raven maniac, I'm the
(22:25):
same person. I'm the same person. When you see these people,
not only are they not the same person, like years apart,
they're not the same person a month's apart. You can
go to one of these things and somebody's all over you,
and the next thing you know, they don't talk to you,
and you're like, what, Well, it's their inconsistency because they're
still screwing around. They're still high as a kite. These
(22:46):
people aren't just smoking me. You know, I took a
duck out during that thing with somebody who was a
couple of togues and that's the end of it. There's
no bills, no cold there's no none of this. Come on.
It's years so and that's why do it a lot.
And if you want to wrap this little thing up,
I want to talk to you about something.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Yeah, yeah, sure, but anyway, far be it from me.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
I will not completely bury anybody. If I wanted to
or not, I wouldn't do it. I totally respect what.
I'm glad you had experience you had, I really am.
I'm grateful for that. So you were protected from a
lot of stuff that I protected myself from.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Right Yeah, Like I said, I I don't have really anything.
Like the only thing I always said was the way
it went down at the end, like we all sunk
with this with the ship, I would say, like I.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Sunk with the Titanic off it, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
But it was my choice, and it was my choice
to stay because I you know, in my heart, I
was just hoping that we can overcome whatever obstacles we had,
and unfortunately we didn't.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
And you know, life goes on.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
But I you know, I wouldn't my whole thing, Tommy,
I wouldn't be sitting here today if Paul didn't give
me a chance.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
And I maybe not in this realm, but obviously somewhere else.
You're very smart, intelligent, pretty girl. I'm sure you had
done something.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
Else, something else, but not in wrestling.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
Well maybe yeah, maybe right right.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
So that's that's that's my thing. But everybody has their
own experience.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
I respect your opinion, and honestly, I can totally see it. Yeah,
because a lot of the things that you said I
did see, but like your experience with Paul, I wasn't
there for so you have your own story to tell
and I.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Don't mark on it, you know, unless it comes up right.
I asked about it. I listen. I'm not bitter, I'm
not mad. My life is wonderful. I mean, I couldn't
ask for a better life. And I was gonna wear
a shirt today. I couldn't find it. I just washed.
I don't know where it is alive, but ive on Spike,
(25:01):
like that's what and you know what, it's the truth.
And I don't want to be goofy, all right, but
this is the truth. And Todd asked me the other night,
he goes, how you doing? How does it? I said, Todd,
I'm the iron Man, no gimmick, the truth. Anybody knows
me says the same thing. Yeah, you know, I've been
(25:23):
through so much h And I'll give you a quick
I want to try to give you a quick idea
of what happened to me, but I'll start with giving
you the quick historical when it comes to how I
feel about myself, my background, I'm a rarity in this
field because other than a few people, my background is huge.
(25:45):
As far as I was a Junior Olympic national champion
in weight with thing nobody knows what that is, get
on a platform and with weights. With the three Junior
Olympic national titles, I was a competitive bodygolder on almost
to the national level because I couldn't take all of
the stuff they wanted to take. The black belt. I've
just posted a picture of me at fourteen as a
(26:07):
jiu jitsu blue belt, a fourth degree black ball and
karate and my blue belt in jiu jitsu at a
young age, and then of course the wrestling business. So
I have a big background and I've been good in
everything I've done, and I'm not stupid, and I was
around the business, exposed to it in the first live
(26:29):
show to see Bruno at ten, and I knew everybody
by the time I was seventeen. Wow, Gary Cappetta, Freddy Blassie,
daveyel Hanna. I've noticed in some thirteen Gary Copetti. I
know since I'm young, all these people. So by the
time I broke in, they were like, hey, look at you.
It used to be that skinny kid. Yeah. So I
(26:52):
got I got a really good break get coming in.
Ted Petty trained me and so yeah, Ted Petty and
also uh Bobby Bold Eagle out of New York. And
I was on the road with the van with Davy
giggled Mass Russian, go up New England, take the truck
in the ring and go. And that's what we did
(27:13):
for I did that for two summers and I trained
probably six months in one spot. And then after that
we lost our building and all I did was set
up the ring, work out, wrestle, tear it down and movement.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Go.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
So it was everything. Yeah, you know, well we we
we put we owned, you know, Teddy owned the ring.
They had a truck Evolvo and me and Davy g
Davy giggled. We would go up around up to as
far as Burlington, Vermont, and we would go up and uh,
you know, set them ring up, go back to the hotel.
(27:52):
We would always work out. That's how I got a
lot of experience. Was and I used to do it
with Chris Candido. God bless them. Yeah, and and and
and and uh balls John Yeah, and uh they you know,
was they were sixteen and I'm like, I said, what
do you guys doing doing bull bugs off the top rope.
(28:14):
I'm like, these guys are gonna hurt them.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
I'm just kids, right, Yeah, they were just kids.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
You know.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
And then the sea like to go to the show
this past week and see Noopie, Uh you know Morgan
Les Morgan and Heidi. I used to wrestle in a
chicken coop in that little low boy ring that last
me and me and Scott in the bottom, Me and Scott.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Leaving everyone who You are enjoying the interview so far,
please tune in on Thursday for part two.
Speaker 3 (28:48):
Yeah, oh an Extreme Extreme Awesome.
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The Queen Extreme Podcast odds up here here here The
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On the Scene France Scene Podcast, What you mean, whet.
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Hey there, this is the Queen of Extreme Fra eteen
and you.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Are listening to Eyes up here with Francine on the
iHeart Rating Network or wherever you get the podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
I'm usually joined I'm a co host chat, but today
I'm a different co host. I welcome to the show.
Tommy Cairo No. I've had the pleasure of finally meeting.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
This past Saturday can Rant and it was so weird
because I obviously I've watched you on the n c
W to.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Apparently we were there.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
At the same time, but neither of us remember meeting.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
What what I got much later years later was that
we were in some kind of mixed tag I don't remember,
and you were just learning I think, or just you
were actually training to wrestle, right.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
I was until Paul told me not to.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Well, the first thing somebody should done was send you
right out of that building and on your way and
never come back.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
I say that all the time, but you know I changed.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Career path when I met when I when I, uh
not when I met you, but when I read through
could see through your your character that you were too
nice for this.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Thank you. You know you're bringing a bell for me.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
I think I partnered with Tommy Dreamer, Yes and maybe yeah,
I think so at like one of the high school
gyms or something.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Now I'm so glad that you don't remember it either,
because then I would be like, wow, I'm shot. I
can't remember nothing. So you don't remember it either.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
You triggered my memory because now I am remembering that. Yeah, okay,
so we did.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Meet, Yeah, but I don't.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
I don't remember you being around much.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Well, I figure, you gotta figure. I was this since
ninety two.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Right, and I started in late ninety three.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
So ninety two ninety three, but ninety four I was
probably one of my busiest years there. This is weird
that whole year would stand man with Singapore came. I mean,
Dreamer was nowhere in the picture at that point. We
did so a solid year of that. You had to
I imagine you were there.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
I was there. I was I I'm still training.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Yeah you must have not been been with Dreamer yet then. No. No.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
When I started, I started as a plant. They put
me in the crowd as Stevie Richard's girlfriend, and that
was in ninety five. But before then they had me
like for a year and a half, I was doing
house shows, just filling in and you know.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Doing little.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
I was gone on ninety five.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Okay, all right, that's what I work.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
And I did you know I was a rebel like
I did. First of all, I have a background as
union electrician. I put cell phone towers on top of
Giant Stadium. So I did that kind of work for
many years. And I have a pension because of that.
So I don't make any bones about it. I had
(03:59):
so many opportunities. I could have taken advantage of it,
but I could not walk away from the money that
I was making. And I met my wife in eighty nine.
I was only in the business three years at that point.
And then you know, I went to Japan, I did ECW,
and I but my career in my Just to give
you an idea, my wife went to see HER's sister
(04:20):
up in North Jersey and she went to some memorabilia place.
It wasn't Tommy Fierro's place, somewhere else, and she brought
me back a E. CW sticker, and I was like,
I kind of looked at her. She goes, what's the matter,
I don't know, why'd you bring me that? She goes,
I don't know. I just figured, I said, honey, if
for all these years, you know, he used to go
(04:40):
there with a stomach ache. When Poul got there, he
just didn't like me and didn't want to use me correctly.
And I used to go there try not to get
buried and try to get whatever I could out of
it until I could find a way, you know, somewhere
else to go, which I did, and then I just
calmly walked away. But the funny thing is like everybody
(05:01):
that was there kind of hangs their hat primarily on
their time in ECW and I don't you know, and
I don't. I felt like it took me backward.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
I think because you had a bad You're from what
I'm getting just by those couple of sentences, you had
a really negative experience.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Whereas I had a positive experience. And that's why I
praised the company so much.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
But I want to backtrack with you.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
You were good with Todd Gordon.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Go with Todd, and I was great with Eddie.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Okay, okay, So then Eddie leaves.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
Right, I was there that night. Well I can say
is this. I don't know, nobody's ever said it, but
Paul's very lucky that Doug didn't put him through a
wall because Doug Gilbert was pissed off beyond repair, just really,
and I thought it was gonna erupt in to something,
you know, ugly, but it did.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
And I don't know why though, Why why.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Not? Because Paul fired Eddie, Paul took Getty's place. Now,
I don't know the circumstances. I've heard a lot of
different things. Doesn't concern me. My thing is, I could
sum up my time there with the fact that I
never went in through that back door. I answered, where
(06:29):
do people go in? Every time? Because I had a wife,
I married her. I met her in eighty nine, we
got engaged in in a year, and married in ninety one,
so I've been with her forever. I've been guilty of
many things, but I have never ever been unfaithful to
my wife. I don't go in places where there's women.
(06:53):
I don't go to bars, I don't go to clubs.
Good for you, you know I did all that. I
bounced for twelve years, eight years in Manhattan. So I mean,
you know, there's no there's there's no good comes from them.
And I'm a Christian. You know we don't do that, right,
So My point is they knew how I was then,
and that I had a wife, and I didn't bring
(07:14):
my wife one week and then have a rat with
me the next week, my wife one week and cozy
enough to one of the whatever. I didn't live my
life like that. I didn't want to see it. I
don't want to be a part of it. I don't
want to be privy to it. I don't want to
know nothing. There was many times I stayed in the
hotel across the street from where everybody was staying various places,
(07:36):
because I don't I didn't need somebody knocking on my
door at three o'clock in the morning with a with
a crack pipe. You know.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
So did the boys look at you as being anti social?
Speaker 3 (07:48):
No? No, because Hack and I got in trouble for
hanging out together in Philly when he was supposed to
be blind, and everybody, you know how serious they took
it back then and we got he from whoever got
back to the got back to Todd or Paulie that
you know we're because we hung out together, my wife
(08:08):
Laurie and him. We stayed at the house. You know,
they went shopping together. You know, we were tight and
you know. But here's the thing, all right, And I
don't want to dwell one hundred percent on you know,
ECW because so many other things are going on in
my life that are so positive. But I'll say this,
(08:29):
and I say this with confidence that there's not too
many people that were rebuke this or have a rebuttal
Paul would have liked to have getting gotten rid of
me a lot sooner, right. I wouldn't quit until I
felt I was ready to go, and he wouldn't fire me.
(08:49):
And I'll tell you what. He was scared to death
of me, okay, And the people that knew me knew
that there was really wasn't anybody in that lack of
locker room that can challenge me. And that's for real.
I don't care who's this and who's a gangster, and
let somebody tell me otherwise. And with one leg today,
I'll whit their ass. And I hate to be like that,
(09:11):
but when you got these phony tough guys walking around,
you got and I look around today and I see
what everybody looks like. And I've been through hell, right,
And I don't touch anything. I smoke my weed and
that's all I do. No pills, no, nothing. So you know,
somebody came up to me. I'm not gonna mention any names.
(09:31):
You were there. Somebody came up to me and asked
me for drugs. And that's the only reason the perstone
was there. And I said, because Carl, you always got drugs.
I go, bro, that's fucking thirty years ago. Excuse my language,
it's thirty years ago. What do you mean? So there
are some of those people are still living that same life.
(09:52):
And I didn't do that, not snorting cocaine off for
hooker's asses. Sorry, yeah, fine, And you're fine.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
So you're not a problem from what I understand. You
get it work, okay, You go to work, You do
your job. You don't argue about the angle, whatever is
thrown at you. You're a team player, you do it.
Why did you have such a problem with Paul?
Speaker 3 (10:18):
I don't know. There's something that he didn't like about me,
and it was evident, and I, like I said, and
you know, I stood up and mopened my mouth so
many times in that locker room. And I want to
tell you who is it that when you see Paul
standing up there on it, you know, stairway and at
one video and you see Terry Funk looking up at him.
(10:41):
I'm like, even Terry Funk was mesmerized. I don't get it.
I don't get it. What did Paul do that was
so great? He ripped off a lot of people. He
hurt good people into business, like Dennis Cortluzzo. Here's the
guy that goes into business for themselves, for himself because
(11:01):
he doesn't know what it's like to be in the rent.
It's not a worker. Never got to dance every Saturday
night or or handle one out. And that's the way
I worked. I worked, you know, it's a it's a fight,
and I was happy to do that. And I did
anything they asked within reason. But I was going when
I wanted to go. And the truth is I walked
(11:23):
up because I couldn't walk. My back was shot at
the time I needed. I couldn't even go to all
my work on my regular job. So I mean, I'm
just saying that, you know, Todd, I think should have
held on to some more guys. And when they say, oh,
I didn't do anything until Paul got there, really look
(11:44):
at look at some of the matches. Look at some
of the Singapore Canyon matches. Match I had a dreamer
all over the building and tell me that they weren't drawing.
We're doing the same twelve thirteen hundred, whatever it was,
and we were doing just as good with Eddie, and
then that happened, and then for me, for a lot
of other guys, it was good. You know, it's like
(12:06):
anything else when the change of the changing of the
guard comes, sweet clean new broom, sweeps clean, boom, and
it bring your guys in. And I have no problem
with that, but I just there was a lot of
shit going on with that I didn't like. They knew
I didn't like it, so maybe therefore they looked at
me like I was definitely not a prude. But it's
(12:27):
not bad. But I have a wife. I bring her
with me here. I'm not coming back next week without
her and doing anything I'm not supposed to do, right,
I'm not gonna be. And there's a lot of shit
that went on that should never going on. You know,
I look at it like this. I'm not I'm not
naming anybody any names, just in general. Yeah, anytime you
(12:51):
have a girl whos either underage and you have more
than one guy in a room, first of all, I
don't know what kind of lifestyle these people leave. But
I think you've got to be a half a fag
to want to be in a room with another guy
and a girl, let alone, three girls, three guys. I
don't know, whatever, whatever, maybe that's cool. Maybe they think
that's cool. That sounds like schoolboy stuff, you know what
(13:14):
I'm saying now, a lifestyle to live, you know, the
rest of your life. And I don't know that they
all do. But I see a lot of sorry looking people,
and I just I'm just glad that I made the cut,
I got my atget oh, And.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
I understand that, right, but that shouldn't interfere with what
goes on at work.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
That's to me, that's.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Like leisure time, right. And I'm not saying it's correct.
I'm not saying it's.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
A right way to live or with it, you know whatever.
But what happens at.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
The arena should not affect you the way like if
you hung out afterwards, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Like they you know a lot of stuff so to speak,
might have been swept under the rug or whatever because
it's the boys, and you know, like we've all seen stuff.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
I've seen things that I just shook my head and
wasn't a part of. But it's the boys, and that
was the excuse all these years, you know, the boys
would be the boys or whatever.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Well, what happens when it's later in life and you're
a father now and you've got girls. Listen, we cannot
deny the fact that throughout history pro wrestling there are
broken women.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Oh no, stop, I am not justifying what might not
have happened to any of those girls or what.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
You know, a lot of this stuff I wasn't privy
to because I wasn't the part. I wasn't on the
party side. I didn't do the drugs or you know,
the the.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
You know, excessive alcoholism and stuff like that. Like that
wasn't my scene. And I think that's part of the
reason why I'm still sitting here today.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
No, I didn't, I mean, but but what my question to.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
You is, you know you didn't want to come around that,
and I understand that, and that's very admirable of you.
But when you get to the wrestling part, like you
had that that whole thing with with sand Man, I'm
eating peaches in the backyard, like I remember that promo.
I laughed like hell at that promo. I thought it
was very clever stuff like that. Do you feel like
(15:30):
if Paul did not come in and Eddie still had
the book, do you feel like that company would have
taken off the way it did when Paul came into play,
Because you seem like, like, I'm not knocking your opinion.
Everybody's lay out an opinion, but I feel like you're
you're just not given Paul enough credit for taking it
(15:52):
to the next level. And even Todd said, because I
love Todd to death and what happened between those two,
that's their thing, you know. But when when somebody asked,
Todd's always like, well, Paul took it to the next level.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Okay, well no, no, but that doesn't mean anything more
than he took it to the next level.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
I mean, why do you're you're saying to me, like,
like that scene from Beyond the Mat when Paul is
standing on the uh the staircase in the back right
and we're all standing there and we're all looking at
him with love in her eyes. That was and you're
you're seeing you're making a face. I can explain why
(16:42):
I felt the way I did. It was because it
was our first pay per view and when I started there,
like they were given away hot dogs and soda to
get people in the building and then to see us
get so far as to do a pay per view.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
It part of the cup, but in the end you
beat people out of money that never got paid back.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
I understand, but you're you're fast forwarding.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
Yeah, but it's all the person that I saw and
what I saw, what I experienced. Sorry, so is what
you're showing me on him? Never?
Speaker 2 (17:19):
No, no, no, I'm not trying to I'm trying to
explain to you my feeling that EI and you're welcome.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
To your fure. We can't like everybody the same. I mean, sure,
you know, and I was a young man who wanted
to show I showed my respect from day one. Daviel
Hanners just stayed a comment how long he's known me
since I was a kid. I'm respectful. I love the business,
but I just don't see what It's just not that
(17:49):
big a deal. I mean, because it took off the
way did. It was something different at a time that
where something different was needed was already being done in
Japan for years or uh that's where he got the idea,
and you took a lot of guys that were built
the company coming from t w A and then starting
(18:11):
up with Todd that were still pretty good, and we're
a lot of them were as good as the guys
that Pull replaced him with. But it's like I said,
the changing of the guard, and I wasn't part of that,
but there was. To me, there was more to it.
And instead of just telling me what it was you
you tried to borry me. And I wouldn't let that
hat put me in a hard hat. Do this? Do that?
(18:33):
Put you know, you got me a one week, I'm
a month on top of the next minute, you want
me to put chat Uston over, no problem, I put
him over. I don't care, you know, I just don't
see the big deal. I see him guys on TV
that's making obviously a lot of money, and never even
made an attempt to let me look and see my
(18:55):
list because you never kept one, because you didn't care,
because you're working to worry about paying Peeople back. I
just and I wasn't old I'm not own anything. But man,
I hear it. It's not like it's not true. I
know of somebody that I know for sure has quite
a bit of money, and some of them are dead.
So you know, yeah, to me, that doesn't that doesn't
(19:17):
ring true as a as a as a good person.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
To me, I understand your opinion.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
I was trying to get out of you, the the
discrepancies between the two of you, because you were a
little vague in the beginning, but now you're opening up
a little more and you're telling me he's putting you
in these these gimmicks that you don't like. You have
to put people over, but you're doing it because you're
a team player. So in other words, your relationship with
Paul was strictly like a boss and an employee, and
(19:46):
you're basically doing everything he's telling you to do, and
you felt like he was burying you in the process.
Speaker 3 (19:54):
Well, I felt like it was trying to but that
that didn't happen because I took the stupid hard hat
and work jacket and just wore it and came in
and peachers wore one, and you know, nobody laughed, nobody
liked it, but it just wasn't It made no sense.
None of it made any sense. You took a guy
that had came in with chaps and you know, let
(20:15):
jacket and do rag. I was in shape I could
do just about anything you wanted to. Cut my thumble,
cut myself. I didn't care. And when Todd saw me,
he even said it on the timeline thing. He said,
I went down and brought Damien Stone with me, little Wido.
He said, he looked like they were working for ten
years together and tore the house down, and I hired
(20:37):
him immediately. What happened to that? What happened to that? See,
that's my point, Like I was there and then I wasn't,
and it was a matter of everything changing. And I
think with Eddie, and I can't say whether or not
he would have destroyed it or it would have done
(20:58):
good or And I'll tell you the truth. If things
were different and things had gone differently and I could
have been utilized to my abilities, it could have been
a different story. And if Paul didn't fail and end
up bankrupt and end up owning people money, maybe I'd
have a different opinion of the things that I've seen
(21:20):
over over the years. I just don't not not not
a favorite person of mine. I get it, And obviously
I wasn't a favorite person in his, So listen, that's
all right, that's all right. I mean I see Todd.
I saw Todd this week. I love Todd. I mean
me too. Well, I just think it was a better
(21:41):
company and I think it had a better feel to it,
and I think a lot of the ship that came
along with it. I mean, look at I can't say it,
just want I don't want to hurt anybody. You can't
deny the condition of some of the people that we
know in this business. We just saw them.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Yes, I know, I think I know who you're with.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
It's a group that all comes from the same place
and nothing has changed in thirty years. I mean, I
don't get it. And here's my thing, Christine, if you
meet me today, ten years ago, twenty years ago, except
for the fact I was a raven maniac, I'm the
(22:25):
same person. I'm the same person. When you see these people,
not only are they not the same person, like years apart,
they're not the same person a month's apart. You can
go to one of these things and somebody's all over you,
and the next thing you know, they don't talk to you,
and you're like, what, Well, it's their inconsistency because they're
still screwing around. They're still high as a kite. These
(22:46):
people aren't just smoking me. You know, I took a
duck out during that thing with somebody who was a
couple of togues and that's the end of it. There's
no bills, no cold there's no none of this. Come on.
It's years so and that's why do it a lot.
And if you want to wrap this little thing up,
I want to talk to you about something.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Yeah, yeah, sure, but anyway, far be it from me.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
I will not completely bury anybody. If I wanted to
or not, I wouldn't do it. I totally respect what.
I'm glad you had experience you had, I really am.
I'm grateful for that. So you were protected from a
lot of stuff that I protected myself from.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Right Yeah, Like I said, I I don't have really anything.
Like the only thing I always said was the way
it went down at the end, like we all sunk
with this with the ship, I would say, like I.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Sunk with the Titanic off it, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
But it was my choice, and it was my choice
to stay because I you know, in my heart, I
was just hoping that we can overcome whatever obstacles we had,
and unfortunately we didn't.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
And you know, life goes on.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
But I you know, I wouldn't my whole thing, Tommy,
I wouldn't be sitting here today if Paul didn't give
me a chance.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
And I maybe not in this realm, but obviously somewhere else.
You're very smart, intelligent, pretty girl. I'm sure you had
done something.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
Else, something else, but not in wrestling.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
Well maybe yeah, maybe right right.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
So that's that's that's my thing. But everybody has their
own experience.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
I respect your opinion, and honestly, I can totally see it. Yeah,
because a lot of the things that you said I
did see, but like your experience with Paul, I wasn't
there for so you have your own story to tell
and I.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Don't mark on it, you know, unless it comes up right.
I asked about it. I listen. I'm not bitter, I'm
not mad. My life is wonderful. I mean, I couldn't
ask for a better life. And I was gonna wear
a shirt today. I couldn't find it. I just washed.
I don't know where it is alive, but ive on Spike,
(25:01):
like that's what and you know what, it's the truth.
And I don't want to be goofy, all right, but
this is the truth. And Todd asked me the other night,
he goes, how you doing? How does it? I said, Todd,
I'm the iron Man, no gimmick, the truth. Anybody knows
me says the same thing. Yeah, you know, I've been
(25:23):
through so much h And I'll give you a quick
I want to try to give you a quick idea
of what happened to me, but I'll start with giving
you the quick historical when it comes to how I
feel about myself, my background, I'm a rarity in this
field because other than a few people, my background is huge.
(25:45):
As far as I was a Junior Olympic national champion
in weight with thing nobody knows what that is, get
on a platform and with weights. With the three Junior
Olympic national titles, I was a competitive bodygolder on almost
to the national level because I couldn't take all of
the stuff they wanted to take. The black belt. I've
just posted a picture of me at fourteen as a
(26:07):
jiu jitsu blue belt, a fourth degree black ball and
karate and my blue belt in jiu jitsu at a
young age, and then of course the wrestling business. So
I have a big background and I've been good in
everything I've done, and I'm not stupid, and I was
around the business, exposed to it in the first live
(26:29):
show to see Bruno at ten, and I knew everybody
by the time I was seventeen. Wow, Gary Cappetta, Freddy Blassie,
daveyel Hanna. I've noticed in some thirteen Gary Copetti. I
know since I'm young, all these people. So by the
time I broke in, they were like, hey, look at you.
It used to be that skinny kid. Yeah. So I
(26:52):
got I got a really good break get coming in.
Ted Petty trained me and so yeah, Ted Petty and
also uh Bobby Bold Eagle out of New York. And
I was on the road with the van with Davy
giggled Mass Russian, go up New England, take the truck
in the ring and go. And that's what we did
(27:13):
for I did that for two summers and I trained
probably six months in one spot. And then after that
we lost our building and all I did was set
up the ring, work out, wrestle, tear it down and movement.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Go.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
So it was everything. Yeah, you know, well we we
we put we owned, you know, Teddy owned the ring.
They had a truck Evolvo and me and Davy g
Davy giggled. We would go up around up to as
far as Burlington, Vermont, and we would go up and uh,
you know, set them ring up, go back to the hotel.
(27:52):
We would always work out. That's how I got a
lot of experience. Was and I used to do it
with Chris Candido. God bless them. Yeah, and and and
and and uh balls John Yeah, and uh they you know,
was they were sixteen and I'm like, I said, what
do you guys doing doing bull bugs off the top rope.
(28:14):
I'm like, these guys are gonna hurt them.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
I'm just kids, right, Yeah, they were just kids.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
You know.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
And then the sea like to go to the show
this past week and see Noopie, Uh you know Morgan
Les Morgan and Heidi. I used to wrestle in a
chicken coop in that little low boy ring that last
me and me and Scott in the bottom, Me and Scott.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Leaving everyone who You are enjoying the interview so far,
please tune in on Thursday for part two.
Speaker 3 (28:48):
Yeah, oh an Extreme Extreme Awesome.
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