August 18, 2022 • 45 mins
In 2014, 18-year-old Conrad Roy committed suicide. But then, his family was shocked to learn that his girlfriend, Michelle Carter, had urged him to take his own life. This week, Rasha and Yvette ask the question: how responsible was Carter for Roy's death?
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey everyone, Just a quick disclaimer before we get started.
Today's episode deals with topics of depression and suicide, so
please use discretion today and if this is a subject
matter you're not fully comfortable with, we recommend you maybe
give today's episode a skip. Lastly, if you or someone
you know is struggling with depression or suicidal ideations, please
(00:22):
call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at one eight hundred
two seven three eight two five five. Thanks for listening.
You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and
Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast
are solely those of the individuals participating in the show
(00:44):
and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV.
This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable
for everyone listener. Discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Hi everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil from Tenderfoot TV
and iHeartRadio. We are your host. I'm Evete Gentile and I'm.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Her baby sister, Roschia Pecuerero, and with us, as always,
is our amazing producer Trevor Young.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Howdy, Howdy, what's up?
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Trevor? I love it when that texting comes out.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Howdies and y'alls all around.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Howdi's and y'alls. I love it well, Trevor, Andyvette. I
really wanted to reach out to the two of you
today and to our listeners because you know, Yvett and
I have been fortunate to do a lot of press
over the last few weeks, and one particular person asked
us a question that I think is so important for
the three of us and for our listeners, and she said,
(01:44):
what do you do for self care when you're not
doing facing evil, when you're not talking about these crimes
and these these horrible things that are happening. So like
for me, I loved that question because it made me
kind of stop and I was like, oh, like a
couple things. One, I'm very thankful to be in therapy,
(02:06):
you know, because mental health is health. And my therapist
she actually ended up sadly, she passed away not too
long ago, unexpectedly. And I have a new one and
I had already started seeing her. But that therapist, her
name was Karen, and she told me, every day, you know,
set a reminder on your phone and it literally says
(02:29):
Rasha practiced mindfulness for the day. And she's like, I
don't care if you say one good word to yourself,
or if you go and take a hot bath, because
she knew I loved hot baths, and so that's my
one thing that I can do for myself every day.
But I want to know. I want to know, Yvette,
what do you do for self care? And then I
want to know what you do, Trevor.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Gosh, there's so many things that I do, But for me,
it's really about getting outside and taking in the fresh air,
you know, putting on my running shoes. You know, that's
really therapy for me, and just I don't have to
type in a password, you know, to go to my
yoga to the gym. It's just putting on those shoes
and getting outside and just letting whatever is bothering me
(03:14):
or you know, exciting me, just let it all resonate
and take off running. That is kind of my go
to right now. As well as you know, I have
a little ritual that I do every morning where I
like incense to bring on the new day and to
be divinely blessed and protected, you know, as our mother
(03:35):
would always say. So those are a few of the
things that I do. Trevor, what about you?
Speaker 1 (03:41):
It's interesting and I think it's probably a very good
question for this episode. For me, I think I learned
a long time ago that the best thing I can
do for myself is have a healthy and regular inner
dialogue that's constantly running. So I'm constantly talking to myself,
you know. I think that's one of the great things
about something like therapy is you're just working through things
(04:02):
with somebody, right, Like you're kind of playing chess with somebody,
but like chess for your brain. And so what I've
always sought to do is kind of be playing chess
with myself all the time, you know. So if I'm
feeling something, or if i'm you know, just have something
on my mind, I just always talk to myself. I'm like, so,
why am I feeling this way? You know, Oh, maybe
(04:22):
it's because you were you know this or that, or
you had gone through this the day before. And I'm like, hm,
that's interesting, and that makes me think back to when
I had this experience, you know. So I'm just always
kind of working through things in my head. It's not
always possible, especially if you're really tired or stressed out,
It's true, so you know, when you can, and I
always try and set situations up for that sort of thing.
(04:46):
So I do I do that best, probably like on drives, walks,
you know, bus rides, whatever it is. And that kind
of keeps me objective, keeps me aware of where I'm
at and how I'm feeling, and kind of helps me
pros us a lot.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
And I think all of that self care is really
amazing to think about and talk about. And like you said, Trevor,
I think it's great for today's case, and I would
be honored if you could actually take us through it.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
My son was my best friend through the height of
his depression. I was biaside trying to build the spirits
and to affect his behavior positively.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
She just thought she was an acquaintance of Conrade's nothing more.
Speaker 4 (05:27):
At the heart of this closely watched case, her text
messages and phone calls encouraging him to commit suicide, and
the debate over whether words can kill. Many questioning whether
Michelle Carter should have ever been charged in the death
of her boyfriend, given that no other Internet case has
resulted in a homicide conviction, and now big questions about
that light sentence she got that seemed to stun the
(05:49):
victim's family.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Conrad Roy was an eighteen year old from Massachusetts who
died by suicide in twenty fourteen. He had just graduated
from high school and was getting ready to attend college,
but Conrad had struggled with depression and suicidal ideations for years,
having attempted suicide two years earlier, and then on July thirteenth,
(06:13):
twenty fourteen, Conrad was found in his truck dead of
carbon monoxide asphyxiation in an apparent suicide. The family soon
learned that leading up to his death, Conrad had been
texting with a girl named Michelle Carter. When police searched
his phone, they discovered hundreds of text messages from Michelle
urging Conrad to take his own life. The following year,
(06:37):
Carter was indicted for manslaughter. The case and the trial
became highly publicized as one of the first cases to
ask was someone criminally responsible for encouraging someone else to
kill themselves? And since then there have been numerous documentaries
and even a fictionalized television show about the case and
(06:58):
so what really led to Conrad Roy's death, to what
degree was Michelle Carter responsible? And what does this case
tell us about the mental health needs of youth in
the age of technology and social media.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
I know, Trevor, I remember when this happened, and to
be honest, I looked at it from two different perspectives.
One my daughter was very young at the time that
this happened, and you know, we didn't have social media
when you've met and Ira kids, and I think you
did have it a little bit, Trevor. But I think
(07:35):
what was so shocking to me is like, could his girlfriend?
Could Conrad Roy's girlfriend have actually caused this? Was she
the reason he finally decided to do it? And I
do want to be a little sensitive to you know,
people who have had, you know, suicidal ideations or thoughts
(07:57):
of suicide. I am not one of those people, no
matter how bad it's gotten for me. I've just never
been in that dark of a place, thankfully. But I
asked my wife before doing this episode if I could
share a little bit of her journey because when this happened.
Of course, I always think about her right and I
know her history, and she's been very open about dealing
(08:19):
with depression every day, and she herself has attempted suicide
a couple of times in her lifetime before we met,
and you know, before I met her, I think I
always thought that someone always has a choice, right, Like
they can always choose to not do it. But sometimes
maybe they just don't have that choice. Maybe it is medical,
(08:42):
maybe it is chemical, And like mental health is so
so so so important.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
It is, and it's so important, and it's so different
for everybody. And I think that's what we're realizing, especially
you know, with this story that we're about to tell.
You know, I can't even imagine, you know, how Conrad's
family felt when, you know, they discovered these thousands and
(09:09):
thousands of texts from this girl that they don't even know. Yeah, like,
how could this and why did this happen?
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Yeah, And that's something we're going to obviously talk about today,
but I will just say, this is really the time
period in someone's life that is the most sensitive, probably right, right,
that's not true for everybody, but like being a teenager,
being an adolescence is very emotionally difficult. And the fact is,
(09:38):
Conrad Roy was indeed part of a bigger, though regrettable trend.
And the data does actually show that teenage boys are
more likely to die by suicide than girls, which is
something to consider that maybe not everybody knows.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Yeah, that's it's so true. And there's a another trend
too that I learned about while researching for this episode,
and rates of teen suicide and mental illness have actually
increased in recent decades. And one report showed that the
suicide death rate among people between the ages of ten
(10:17):
and twenty four increased fifty six percent between the years
two thousand and seven and twenty seventeen.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
God, I believe that that is an alarming, alarming number.
I mean, why do we think this is happening, and
especially to teens? What do you guys think?
Speaker 3 (10:34):
I mean, it's there.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Are like a lot of things that experts have looked at,
and there's like plenty to pick from, especially in today's
day and age. Right, Okay, So one big factor that
we can look at is economic stress. If you remember
two thousand and eight, which is right at the start
of those numbers you mentioned Russia, there was a huge
recession that had a massive impact on a lot of families,
(10:57):
especially kids, including my own. And not only that, but
there's the fact that social media started popping up around
that time, and I do think social media has had
a huge negative impact on the emotional development of a
lot of kids, a lot of teens. You know, I
(11:18):
had MySpace and middle.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
School good on my Space.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Yeah, and then I think, like Facebook was just starting
to be a thing when I graduated high school. Nowadays
it feels like everybody has their own phone, Like all
the teenagers have TikTok. And I know for a fact
that you know, the sort of imagery and the sort
of you know, expectations for what your life should be
like through something like TikTok is like not super healthy.
(11:47):
I think it's pretty toxic. So all this to say,
I think social media and phones not healthy for kids,
and I think the numbers reflect that.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Agreed one hundred percent. You know, I have, as we know,
I have a love hate relationship with with social media.
Russia is the one who introduced me to my Space,
and I think mom is the one who introduced me
to Facebook. Like I had no clue, you know. But
I agree with you, and I think this is something
that we can see in the story of Conrad Roy,
(12:16):
you know, dealing with this social media. So Trevor, with
that being said, can you please shed light on Conrad
Roy's story.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Yeah, So Conrad was born on September twelfth, nineteen ninety five,
in Mattapoisett, Massachusetts. To all you New Englanders, I'm sorry
if I butcher that Conrad worked with his family's marine
salvaging business, and after high school he got his own
captain's license from the Northeast Maritime Institute, which is very impressive.
(12:48):
Very he was super intelligent at a super high GPA
in high school. But Conrad did deal with a ton
of issues growing up, of course, not limited to depression
and anxiety, he allegedly also dealt with abuse from his
father and grandfather, and then when his parents divorced in
twenty twelve, Conrad did attempt suicide. Luckily, on that occasion
(13:13):
he was unsuccessful.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
I can totally relate to this because divorce. When you
talk about divorce, and I remember when you know, my
parents divorced, how devastating that can be on kids, you know,
having to go through a messy divorce, you know, with
their parents and they're seeing all of that. So I'm
sure you know, Conrad had a lot more going on
than even his parents knew about at that time, because
(13:36):
they were probably going through, you know, their own things obviously,
But this is about the time that Conrad actually met Michelle,
and this is back in twenty twelve.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Yeah, it's interesting how this kind of lines up. But
both Conrad's family and Michelle Carter's family happened to be
in vacation in Florida at the same time in twenty
twelve from Massachusetts though, so the two of them met,
their families, kind of found each other, and they started
texting and messaging each other Conrad and Michelle.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Did I know Michelle also dealt with mental health struggles,
like just like Conrad did, so of course, I'm sure
they had a lot in common. And she also was
on Selexa for anxiety and depression, so you know, again,
they probably cemented a bond during this time, talking about
(14:30):
all of the things that both of them are going.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Through, and I think all the things that teenagers talk about, right, yeah, yeah,
and they were bonding over something that they both were
openly going through. And it's during this time that, of course,
they proclaimed their love for one another. You know, I
remember we had beepers back in the day, you know,
like I think my hyders. Yeah, my high school sweetheart
(14:54):
would text me no I'm seeing I'm even saying text
would beep me the numbers one four to three, which
meant I love you, you know, So I'm like, oh,
you know they said one four to three, that means
they love me. So I think that was kind of
what Michelle and Conrad we're going through at the time.
And I think they only met in person a handful
(15:15):
of times, right, I think like five times they only met, right, I.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Mean somehow though they only lived about an hour away
from each other there in Massachusetts, and sometimes they'd like
make plans to meet up, but it never seemed to
really work out. I guess when you are maybe a
little far away, it's hard. But they claim to have
had a really strong connection over technology over phones. But yeah,
I mean there was basically little to no face to
(15:43):
face interaction between these two. Most of it was online,
and that's where the spark seemed to be. Michelle herself.
I know you talked a little bit about her mental
health struggles, but you know, at least in school, she
was very liked and very popular. Her classmates voted her
most likely to brighten your day, and maybe that sort
of extroverted personality is what attracted Conrad. She also, as
(16:07):
you alluded to, had been dealing with mental health problems
since I think she was like eight or nine, so
I read that she had had an eating disorder when
she was yeah, very very young, and had been put
on various forms of medication, like before middle school, which
is wild very.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Very very young age.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
So I mean, with everything you just said, it just
makes sense that, of course they probably mostly talked about,
you know, stuff like this, like suicide. Right, And she
allegedly actually says that at one time she talked him down.
I should say a number of times she talked him
(16:48):
down from his suicide attempts. And this is over the
course of you know, two years or so, right.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Yeah, and in fact, a month before he actually did
take his own life, she writes to him, and I'm
going to be quoting a lot of different texts over
the course of this episode, but here's one. She said,
quote you need professional help like me. End quote. But
then that changes. On July twelfth of twenty fourteen, the
(17:18):
day before he was found dead, she sent this really
chilling message at four nineteen in the morning. She writes, quote,
you can't think about it. You just have to do it.
You said you were going to do it, Like I
don't get why you aren't end quote, and he writes back, quote,
I don't get it either. I don't know end quote.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Oh god, it just breaks my heart.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
I would be like, don't do it, right.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
I Mean that's the weird part, right, That's what makes
this casee weird, is that she seems to be really
egging im on, well, like supportive at first, but like
there's this weird turn that happens where she's like, all
of a sudden, like, eh, just just do it right,
just get it over with, Like she's kind of like
frustrated that he's.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Not actually going through with it.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Yeah, like going through with it. And that's like the
kind of like nugget of evil that people seem to
kind of latch onto. When we talk about this case,
it is like what would drive someone to do that thing?
Or and why was there a turn?
Speaker 3 (18:13):
Right? Why did she flip? Right? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Because he was clearly hesitating, right, he was not fully
sure about this thing. But it's it's clear that she's
at least like pushing on him by this point.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
And apparently he's sort of anxiously texting all day and
his family does notice this, and his sister Camden actually
told reporters that at the time, she didn't know who
he was texting with, but in fact he was texting
with Michelle Carter and the two were going back and
forth about his plans to kill himself later that day,
(18:47):
and he wrote to her that he was worried about
leaving his family behind. He really loved his family, and
he wrote, quote like I want them to know that
I love them end quote. Michelle's re response was quote,
they know. That's one thing. They definitely know. End quote,
And earlier she'd texted, quote, everyone will be sad for
(19:09):
a while, but they will get over it and move
on end quote. Gosh, like it's so sad. And then
around six o'clock that evening, Conrad drove off in his truck,
saying he was going to see a friend and that
was the last time his family would ever see him alive.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
We do need to take a quick break, but we'll
keep moving with the story when we come back.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
So it wasn't like Conrad Roy to disappear for very long.
He'd driven off in his truck late the afternoon of
July twelfth, and his family had no clue where he was.
His mother, of course, became concerned and texted him in
the middle of the night, but received no response. Still,
she was assuming that everything was okay. She knew about
(20:00):
his struggles with depression, and she truly believed that he
would overcome it.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Then something odd happened. Late that night, Conrad's sister, Camden,
received the text from Michelle Carter. To Camden, Michelle was
just this random friend of Conrad's who lived somewhere else.
So his sister really had no idea the connection that
these two had. She didn't know that they were supposedly
(20:27):
boyfriend and girlfriend. She just knew that they had met
right on vacation.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Right, yeah, I know what he did. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
And in talking about this to a reporter, Camden said
that she thought her brother and Michelle were just friends.
But in this message, Michelle tells Camden, quote, we're boyfriend
and girlfriend now end quote, and then she asks, quote
do you know where your brother is? End quote?
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Oh, this right here is like my first thought is like,
this is sick. Yeah, because she knows where her brother
is and for her to say that that is disturbing.
It also makes me think of a sociopath.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Like that, it doesn't quiet add up.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
It's also weird that she would make this declaration that
their boyfriend and girlfriend. Now, I mean, if you're assuming
that Conrad has taken his own life by this point, like,
why are you, I don't know, suggesting that you are
like together and dating.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
It's just like she wants to feel seen and feel
important in this horrific time.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
I think like she's in control of the situation somehow. Anyhow,
so the next day the family does go searching for Conrad,
and at one point his mother gets the sort of
what she describes as a rush through her body and
she kind of senses spiritually that her son is gone.
And it turns out that he is, and they find
(21:55):
him in his truck in a remote corner of a
kmart parking a lot. So he had turned on a
gas powered water pump in his truck and let the
cabin fill up with carbon monoxide and he died of asphyxiation.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
Yeah, and meanwhile, Michelle Carter's weird behavior intensifies. She ends
up showing up at the funeral a few days later
and apparently makes a little bit of a scene.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Yeah. A friend of Conrad says, Michelle seemed to be
acting out the role of a grieving widow. It's almost
like like she was obsessed with Glee and the characters
on Glee. It likes it seemed like a performance, right, right.
But the family then discovers she's been also organizing this
(22:51):
charity event in Conrad Roy's name, and the family has
no idea.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
Yeah, and Michelle presents herself as this anti suicide advocate
and she did set up this memorial. It was actually
a memorial softball game in his memory. And all of
this just strikes the family as odd. One they didn't
even know who she was, and I watched a documentary
all about it. She set it up in her hometown
(23:19):
rather than in Conrad's.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Yeah, it's it's weird. I wonder like how she sees herself.
That's like the one thing I can never really get
a good grasp on. The more I read about this
and you know, watch videos. Does she actually see herself
as an anti suicide advocate? Does she actually think that
she's like a positive force making a difference in the
field of mental health or is this all like this
(23:43):
really kind of like messed up, you know, power trip
facade thing. And I really don't know, but you know,
it's either one she's like an evil person, or two
she's like delusional. Those are like the only two options
I can see here.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
You know, I think it's both, Trevor, I would have
to say, I mean, just in my opinion, you know, like, yes,
she is delusional and at the same time, what she's
doing is evil.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
I would like to jump in as a devil's advocate
for a moment, only because I know what I was
like at seventeen, you know what I mean, Like, granted
I was never in that position, but her brain wasn't
even fully developed yet, and she herself had mental health issues.
That's the only thing I can you know what I mean,
Like she was seventeen, Yeah, she was seventeen. Does it
(24:33):
make it okay? No? Was she an anti suicide advocate
when she talked him into killing himself, you know, just
a few days prior?
Speaker 1 (24:40):
No, Yeah, that's a good point. I do think we
forget that, Like, yeah, you're right, Like her brain's not developed,
she's a minor.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
Yeah, it's still heartbreaking.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
And I have to say too, you know, like even
you know her doing all this, like for me, I.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
Would be like, who is this girl? Where did she
come from?
Speaker 2 (24:56):
But I'm sure you know, at the time, right her family,
they were in shock, you know, and grieving the loss
of their son. So either're thinking, oh, you know, I know,
the mother is thinking, well, at least he had this
girlfriend who loved and adored him, so she thought, even.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
Though they didn't know about her in the moment when
he was alive. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Yeah, So I mean, let's talk about the investigation then.
So it's ruled a suicide and the police to decide
to look into it a little more, and they find
his phone. They're able to get into it, and that
is where they discover all of these messages from Michelle Carter.
So he had erased all other text threads on his
(25:41):
phone except for the ones with Michelle, So it was
almost like a focal point when they checked his phone.
It was like all these messages were there and that
was the only thing on his phone. And in the messages,
what they find, without a doubt, is very damning. I know,
we love a few of them, but here are some
more we can go into.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
I mean, no kidding, I mean, let's get into it.
In one exchange, he asked her how was your day,
and she responds, when are you going to do it?
My day was okay, how was yours? I mean, how
bizarre is that into me? That's just cruel?
Speaker 3 (26:19):
Yeah, yeah, it's so gross and creepy.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Yeah. And it goes on and they talk about their day,
and then she says again, when are you going to
do it? Stop ignoring the question.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
What the hell? Just keep sagging, And there's yet another exchange.
This is after he's been depressed for quite some time.
She's advocating for suicide as his best option and writes, quote,
it's painless and quick end quote. And this is between
all of these professions of love for him. So it's
(26:54):
like kind of manic, right, like going back and forth.
And one thing that's incredibly chilling is that she even
brings her friends into this. So just over a week
after Conrad dies, she texted a friend telling her she's
worried that she'd be implicated in his death. And she
does this sort of with of course, all the trauma
(27:16):
of a teenager, and she writes to her friend Sam,
quote Sam, they read my messages with him. I'm done.
His family will hate me and I can go to
jail end quote. Later she tells this friend Sam that
she was there when Conrad Rory actually took his last breath.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
So obviously, I mean, she is clearly taking pleasure in this,
like in all of it. And again like she she knows,
she knows what she did.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
Yeah, I mean I think she probably at least has
some sort of like twisted logic in her head that, yeah,
you know, this was like the right thing to do somehow,
like this was like a mercy and that, like it's
just that nobody else will understand, but like at least
we know that we loved each other and this was
like the healthiest thing or something like that.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Yeah, it's almost as if it's like the whole thing
is very intoxicating, Like she's playing out on both sides
of it.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
You know, she acts like she loves him, yet she
wants him to take his life right right. And yeah,
it's very much a movie. And I can understand why
it was made into a mini series on Hulu, Like
I totally can see the dramatization of it. But again,
we have to remember right when we were teenagers, you
(28:32):
know how everything was so loaded with drama. Well, I
was never dramatic. I don't know what anyone's talking about,
but you know, many I know just kidding, but no,
many you know, especially you know teenage you know, more
feminine kids like I think they definitely have a flair
for the dramatic. And even when you're talking about death,
(28:54):
when you're talking about it, it doesn't seem real, right, So
maybe Michelle didn't think he was actually ever going to
do it. She was just being super dramatic because we
don't fully understand. I think when we're teenagers that anyone's
going to die, right, And that's kind of the sense
of what I'm getting here. I don't think she was
a cold blooded, heartless murderer. I just think she needed
(29:17):
She was reaching out for help as well.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
I think, yeah, I mean, going back to my question
earlier about like whether or not she was just delusional
or a bad person, I mean the way you say that,
you know, leans towards the more delusional yeah theory, right,
that you know, in her own mind, maybe she really
thought this was like her own Romeo and Juliet story
(29:39):
in some kind of dark, twisted way, and therefore it
was justified. I feel like she's just like doesn't have
a grip on reality, and I think maybe some of
her other mental health issues would back that up.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Yeah, so absolutely. I mean in the medications that she
was on as well.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Right, exactly exactly, And that's something they bring up a
lot in the trials, which get to so speaking of trials, though,
Michelle Carter is in fact indicted. So on February fourth
of twenty fifteen, they indict her with involuntary manslaughter and
she has arraigned the very next day and charged as
a youthful offender since she was only seventeen at the
(30:17):
time of Conrad's death. And so this big trial is
where a lot of crazy things happen. So we're going
to talk about that trial in just a minute. We
do have to take another quick break, though, so we
will be back after that.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
At trial, the prosecution has an abundance of evidence against
Michelle Carter in the case of Conrad Roy's death, and
they have so much evidence, of course, in the form
of these thousands of texts. So first of all, she
helped him find his method. She actually wrote to him
and another quote here, hanging is painless and takes like
(30:59):
a second if you do it right. End quote. Right.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
I mean, we know though that that's not how he
actually died. But five days before his suicide she sent
him a news release from the US Consumer Product Safety
Commission entitled quote winter Warning, Portable generators hold top spot
in CPSC report on carbon monoxide deaths and incidents. So
she sends him this report, and then minutes before they've
(31:26):
been texting about ways to generate carbon monoxide. And then
she tells him in another text, quote google ways to
make it end quote Wow, And then she sends him
this news release that I just mentioned, and he responds,
quote portable generator, that's it. End quote. So that's where
he gets the idea.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
And it's so crazy because they actually made a TV
show which is on Hulu and it's called The Girl
from Plainville, and this story it garnered so much attention
because again, in how often have we seen on television
where a teenage girl tells her boyfriend just kill yourself?
(32:08):
Just do it right?
Speaker 3 (32:10):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (32:10):
I mean, I think you know, it could be this
sort of thing happens more often than we know about.
But it definitely felt like the first public case of
this sort, which is why it gets so much media attention,
which I know we'll get to in a second. But
the only other thing this case reminds me of is
a very different type of scenario, but kind of goes
back to this question of whether or not seventeen year
(32:32):
olds with mental health problems should be held accountable. Is
the DC sniper case. If you remember, one of the
shooters was a seventeen year old boy who was largely
kind of opted into it by an older man, And
there was always this question of, like, you know, should
the seventeen year old be held accountable for something that
like maybe he was led into doing an adult manipulated,
(32:55):
maybe brainwashed, even you know, it becomes very gray because
the more that you talked to him his name was Malvo,
Lee Malvo, you know, the more you realize like he
definitely had enough facilities to like know right from wrong
by seventeen. And I think you can kind of apply
that same logic to Michelle here, which is like at seventeen,
(33:16):
like say what you will about some of her mental
health problems, but you still generally have an idea of
like what is right and what's wrong. Right, Yeah, And
the fact that she was texting her friend right like, hey,
they're going to get me if they read these texts,
Like she knew this was wrong and she was going
to get in trouble for it. So that's what they're
all looking at right now in this trial. The other
(33:36):
points the prosecution makes are that Michelle spent weeks talking
Conrad out of his doubts, you know, all that your
family won't get over it stuff. You know, she was
trying to like chip away at some of the things
that we're holding him back.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Yeah, And I guess we just go back again and again,
like why would she do this?
Speaker 3 (33:55):
Yeah? And I was watching a documentary earlier today preparing
for episode, and I saw the prosecution arguing that she
was desperate for friends and attention, and days before Conrad's death,
she sent text to the girls that she supposedly wanted
to get closer with, wanted to be more popular around,
(34:18):
pretending that Conrad was missing to get their sympathy, like
she kind of had a dry run a few days
before he actually took his life. And in fact, prosecutors
went so far as to say that Conrad still being
alive was actually a problem for Michelle because of the
lies she had spun a few days earlier with her friends,
So if he remained alive, it would expose her as
(34:41):
a liar, right.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
So I mean that kind of sens was there. Yeah,
but really that's not even the darkest part of it.
So at about six point thirty on the night of
his death, they end up talking for forty five minutes
or so over the phone. So, according to one article,
quote during that conversation, as the cab of the truck
filled with gas fumes, Roy decided to get out. Carter
(35:05):
later told a friend and in a message she probably
didn't expect to ever become public, she wrote, quote, I
fucking told him to get back in the truck. Yeah,
So he actually was like backing out of this. He
was ready to get out of that truck, and right
at the last moment, she told him to follow through,
(35:28):
get back in there, finish the job.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
So so gross. It's like she put the nail in
his coffin, even though he's the one that put himself there,
right she did.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
I mean, it sounds like she wanted him dead.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
Yeah. And meanwhile, you know she's already lying to her
friends and saying that she was afraid he'd killed himself.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
So disturbing on so many levels, because first of all,
she knows where he's at. She could have, you know,
easily called his mom, called his sister called nine one one,
but instead, like you said, she put the nail in
the coffin and told him to get back in the truck,
I mean a vet.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Like you said, she's kind of playing both sides of this, right, Yeah,
she's trying to be the virtuous girlfriend, but then also
trying to gain sympathy, knowing full well that this is
like kind of a sham situation that she's been in
control of the whole time. Right, Well, let's talk about
the defense in this trial. So those defending Michelle Carter
(36:29):
say that Conrad Roy was planning to kill himself anyway,
and point to his past attempts. They say she didn't
threaten or physically assist him, that she just wanted to
help him, I guess, basically to escape the mental anguish
that he was in. They also say that she should
not be charged as an adult, and they frame all
of this as a matter of free speech, and this
(36:52):
becomes a slippery slope you get into when it comes
to right to die issues, which we probably should talk
about at some point today. But despite all of this,
she is indeed convicted. She's found guilty of involuntary manslaughter,
and she's sentenced to two and a half years, made
up of fifteen months in jail in a period of
supervised probation, which is pretty short. It is, so that
(37:15):
means that she's out already today. She was released in
January of twenty twenty, getting out three months early for
good behavior.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
Yeah. And it's actually kind of sad when you think
about it, because in her yearbook, Michelle was voted quote
most likely to brighten your day end quote.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
Yeah. It's the irony here.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Yeah, that is the irony when looking at this case, Like,
I just have to go back to words are very powerful,
and those words that she sent in that text, you know,
telling Conrad to get back in that car, to me,
(37:55):
that is an act of violence.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
She could have gotten him help, She could.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Have gotten him help, but the words that she chose
were so incredibly powerful that he got back in that
car and now he's not here.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
Yeah, I mean there's no doubt that she's partially responsible
for this, Right, It's just like the question is like
to what degree? And then also like what is the
right punishment for the level of involvement that she had,
because there hasn't really been anything like this before, right,
there's not much of a president. I don't know. And
that's part of this next, maybe big last topic here,
(38:31):
which is that this case became huge. It was notorious.
I mean I remember seeing Michelle Carter's face everywhere in
twenty fourteen. Yeah, we've had documentaries, We've had the fictional
show all about Michelle Carter on Hulu. I mean, I
don't know, what do you guys think, Like, why are
people so into this case? Other than that, you know,
I guess we've never seen anything like this before.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
It's just fascinating because if you look at her, like
she's a beautiful girl, like you would think everything is
fine in life, so, you.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
Know, right, And I think part of that is she's
like good looking, seemingly you know, pretty, she's white, she's
from the suburbs, and she was caught doing and seeing
these horrific and horrible things. And I think that fascinated
people in a way. I mean, people love salacious true crime,
(39:22):
and this is as salacious as you can get. It's
messed up in so many ways.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
Yeah, there's a bit of cognitive dissonance there, I guess,
And I guess I've always not like necessarily how the
coverage of the story focused on Michelle, you know, and
not Conrad. Yeah, exactly. You know, I guess she is
like the monster of the story, right, Like when we
hear about Jeffrey Dahmer, we hear about Dahmer. We don't
hear about the people he killed usually, right, you know,
(39:48):
people like to focus on the person, and you know,
coming from the journalism world, they you know, red flag
that all the time, like don't talk about the shooter
when there's a school shooting, right, you know, don't talk
about the kill or don't give them attention to, don't
give them a platform. You don't want to inspire other people,
you know, only talk about the victims. And the truth is,
like this isn't about Michelle. You know, we're talking about
(40:09):
a bigger problem here where youth today are dealing with
an epidemic of depression, you know, as we said, bolstered
by social media and phones and all that stuff. So
that's what we should be talking about.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
Yeah, etchever, that's right. And those statistics you mentioned at
the top, I mean there's been a huge increase in
recent years, which is so sad.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
Yeah, I mean two thousand and seven to twenty seventeen
was that window that we saw like a fifty plus
percent jump, you know, and I think we definitely we
need to curb that somehow. You know, we need to
realize that social media is probably making things worse if
we don't regulate it. And that's what I was saying
at the top. You know, we need to I think,
try harder now more than ever to you know, provide
(40:53):
mental health resources and like really think about the effects
of kind of isolated phone time.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
Yeah. Words are powerful, right they are. And I think
it's all about having conversations.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
Right.
Speaker 3 (41:07):
I'm a parent myself. Our little girl is ten, and
she has very fiercely protective moms and aunties and uncles
taking care of her. But it's about having conversations. So
I want to encourage all of the parents or you know,
just guardians out there. You don't even have to be
(41:28):
a parent. You can be an uncle and auntie, a cousin,
a friend, you know, check on your kids and you know,
look at the messages and the things that they're consuming.
Like I get a report every week of what Leilani
is watching on YouTube. But we have that open dialogue
and conversation. So I hope that other caregivers out there
can do that with you know, the young people in
(41:50):
their lives as well. But I know that we can't
control that. We can't wrap our kids and our youth
in a bubble, you know. I think I remember Conrad
Roy's mom saying, like I wish I had you know,
tied him, you know to the radiator of the day before,
Like you can't live your life like that. So resources,
(42:10):
like we have said, are very very important, and I
would love for you all to check out the Youth
Mental Health Project. They have a comprehensive list of issue
specific resources, everything from depression to bipolar disorder to schizophrenia,
and we will of course post more resources on our website.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
Our final message of hope and healing this week is
dedicated to Conrad Roy and other people who find themselves
in a deep struggle with depression.
Speaker 3 (42:46):
Severe depression can feel like absolute despair and it can
seem like there's no way out. Depression is an illness
and it's very real.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
We want to share with those who are going through
depression and those who know people struggling with it that
it can get better.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
Yes, and many people can get treatment for depression and
they are glad that they took the steps that they
needed in order to start feeling better, and it starts
by asking for help.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
Maybe Conrad Roy was never able to fully take those steps.
Today we honor him, his family and everyone out there
who's ever struggled with depression in their own family. You
are not alone. Onward and Upward, Emua emua.
Speaker 3 (43:41):
Well, that's our show for today, And as we said
at the beginning of the episode, if you or someone
you know is struggling with thoughts of suicide, please call
the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at one eight hundred two
seven three eight two five five. We would love to
hear what you thought about today discussion and if there's
(44:01):
a case you'd like for us to cover, find us
on social media at Facing Evil Pod or email us
at Facing Eagle Pod at tenderfoot dot tv until next
time Aloha.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV.
The show is hosted by Russia paccuerero in Avet Gentile,
Matt Frederick, and Alex Williams, our executive producers on behalf
of iHeartRadio, with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk, Donald
Albright In Payne Lindsay Our executive producers on behalf of
(44:43):
Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Claudia Dafrico.
Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on
social media or email us at Facing Evil, pod at
tenderfoot dot tv. More podcasts from iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
(45:07):
to your favorite shows.
Hey everyone, Just a quick disclaimer before we get started.
Today's episode deals with topics of depression and suicide, so
please use discretion today and if this is a subject
matter you're not fully comfortable with, we recommend you maybe
give today's episode a skip. Lastly, if you or someone
you know is struggling with depression or suicidal ideations, please
(00:22):
call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at one eight hundred
two seven three eight two five five. Thanks for listening.
You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and
Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast
are solely those of the individuals participating in the show
(00:44):
and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV.
This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable
for everyone listener. Discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Hi everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil from Tenderfoot TV
and iHeartRadio. We are your host. I'm Evete Gentile and I'm.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Her baby sister, Roschia Pecuerero, and with us, as always,
is our amazing producer Trevor Young.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Howdy, Howdy, what's up?
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Trevor? I love it when that texting comes out.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Howdies and y'alls all around.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Howdi's and y'alls. I love it well, Trevor, Andyvette. I
really wanted to reach out to the two of you
today and to our listeners because you know, Yvett and
I have been fortunate to do a lot of press
over the last few weeks, and one particular person asked
us a question that I think is so important for
the three of us and for our listeners, and she said,
(01:44):
what do you do for self care when you're not
doing facing evil, when you're not talking about these crimes
and these these horrible things that are happening. So like
for me, I loved that question because it made me
kind of stop and I was like, oh, like a
couple things. One, I'm very thankful to be in therapy,
(02:06):
you know, because mental health is health. And my therapist
she actually ended up sadly, she passed away not too
long ago, unexpectedly. And I have a new one and
I had already started seeing her. But that therapist, her
name was Karen, and she told me, every day, you know,
set a reminder on your phone and it literally says
(02:29):
Rasha practiced mindfulness for the day. And she's like, I
don't care if you say one good word to yourself,
or if you go and take a hot bath, because
she knew I loved hot baths, and so that's my
one thing that I can do for myself every day.
But I want to know. I want to know, Yvette,
what do you do for self care? And then I
want to know what you do, Trevor.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Gosh, there's so many things that I do, But for me,
it's really about getting outside and taking in the fresh air,
you know, putting on my running shoes. You know, that's
really therapy for me, and just I don't have to
type in a password, you know, to go to my
yoga to the gym. It's just putting on those shoes
and getting outside and just letting whatever is bothering me
(03:14):
or you know, exciting me, just let it all resonate
and take off running. That is kind of my go
to right now. As well as you know, I have
a little ritual that I do every morning where I
like incense to bring on the new day and to
be divinely blessed and protected, you know, as our mother
(03:35):
would always say. So those are a few of the
things that I do. Trevor, what about you?
Speaker 1 (03:41):
It's interesting and I think it's probably a very good
question for this episode. For me, I think I learned
a long time ago that the best thing I can
do for myself is have a healthy and regular inner
dialogue that's constantly running. So I'm constantly talking to myself,
you know. I think that's one of the great things
about something like therapy is you're just working through things
(04:02):
with somebody, right, Like you're kind of playing chess with somebody,
but like chess for your brain. And so what I've
always sought to do is kind of be playing chess
with myself all the time, you know. So if I'm
feeling something, or if i'm you know, just have something
on my mind, I just always talk to myself. I'm like, so,
why am I feeling this way? You know, Oh, maybe
(04:22):
it's because you were you know this or that, or
you had gone through this the day before. And I'm like, hm,
that's interesting, and that makes me think back to when
I had this experience, you know. So I'm just always
kind of working through things in my head. It's not
always possible, especially if you're really tired or stressed out,
It's true, so you know, when you can, and I
always try and set situations up for that sort of thing.
(04:46):
So I do I do that best, probably like on drives, walks,
you know, bus rides, whatever it is. And that kind
of keeps me objective, keeps me aware of where I'm
at and how I'm feeling, and kind of helps me
pros us a lot.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
And I think all of that self care is really
amazing to think about and talk about. And like you said, Trevor,
I think it's great for today's case, and I would
be honored if you could actually take us through it.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
My son was my best friend through the height of
his depression. I was biaside trying to build the spirits
and to affect his behavior positively.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
She just thought she was an acquaintance of Conrade's nothing more.
Speaker 4 (05:27):
At the heart of this closely watched case, her text
messages and phone calls encouraging him to commit suicide, and
the debate over whether words can kill. Many questioning whether
Michelle Carter should have ever been charged in the death
of her boyfriend, given that no other Internet case has
resulted in a homicide conviction, and now big questions about
that light sentence she got that seemed to stun the
(05:49):
victim's family.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Conrad Roy was an eighteen year old from Massachusetts who
died by suicide in twenty fourteen. He had just graduated
from high school and was getting ready to attend college,
but Conrad had struggled with depression and suicidal ideations for years,
having attempted suicide two years earlier, and then on July thirteenth,
(06:13):
twenty fourteen, Conrad was found in his truck dead of
carbon monoxide asphyxiation in an apparent suicide. The family soon
learned that leading up to his death, Conrad had been
texting with a girl named Michelle Carter. When police searched
his phone, they discovered hundreds of text messages from Michelle
urging Conrad to take his own life. The following year,
(06:37):
Carter was indicted for manslaughter. The case and the trial
became highly publicized as one of the first cases to
ask was someone criminally responsible for encouraging someone else to
kill themselves? And since then there have been numerous documentaries
and even a fictionalized television show about the case and
(06:58):
so what really led to Conrad Roy's death, to what
degree was Michelle Carter responsible? And what does this case
tell us about the mental health needs of youth in
the age of technology and social media.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
I know, Trevor, I remember when this happened, and to
be honest, I looked at it from two different perspectives.
One my daughter was very young at the time that
this happened, and you know, we didn't have social media
when you've met and Ira kids, and I think you
did have it a little bit, Trevor. But I think
(07:35):
what was so shocking to me is like, could his girlfriend?
Could Conrad Roy's girlfriend have actually caused this? Was she
the reason he finally decided to do it? And I
do want to be a little sensitive to you know,
people who have had, you know, suicidal ideations or thoughts
(07:57):
of suicide. I am not one of those people, no
matter how bad it's gotten for me. I've just never
been in that dark of a place, thankfully. But I
asked my wife before doing this episode if I could
share a little bit of her journey because when this happened.
Of course, I always think about her right and I
know her history, and she's been very open about dealing
(08:19):
with depression every day, and she herself has attempted suicide
a couple of times in her lifetime before we met,
and you know, before I met her, I think I
always thought that someone always has a choice, right, Like
they can always choose to not do it. But sometimes
maybe they just don't have that choice. Maybe it is medical,
(08:42):
maybe it is chemical, And like mental health is so
so so so important.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
It is, and it's so important, and it's so different
for everybody. And I think that's what we're realizing, especially
you know, with this story that we're about to tell.
You know, I can't even imagine, you know, how Conrad's
family felt when, you know, they discovered these thousands and
(09:09):
thousands of texts from this girl that they don't even know. Yeah, like,
how could this and why did this happen?
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Yeah, And that's something we're going to obviously talk about today,
but I will just say, this is really the time
period in someone's life that is the most sensitive, probably right, right,
that's not true for everybody, but like being a teenager,
being an adolescence is very emotionally difficult. And the fact is,
(09:38):
Conrad Roy was indeed part of a bigger, though regrettable trend.
And the data does actually show that teenage boys are
more likely to die by suicide than girls, which is
something to consider that maybe not everybody knows.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Yeah, that's it's so true. And there's a another trend
too that I learned about while researching for this episode,
and rates of teen suicide and mental illness have actually
increased in recent decades. And one report showed that the
suicide death rate among people between the ages of ten
(10:17):
and twenty four increased fifty six percent between the years
two thousand and seven and twenty seventeen.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
God, I believe that that is an alarming, alarming number.
I mean, why do we think this is happening, and
especially to teens? What do you guys think?
Speaker 3 (10:34):
I mean, it's there.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Are like a lot of things that experts have looked at,
and there's like plenty to pick from, especially in today's
day and age. Right, Okay, So one big factor that
we can look at is economic stress. If you remember
two thousand and eight, which is right at the start
of those numbers you mentioned Russia, there was a huge
recession that had a massive impact on a lot of families,
(10:57):
especially kids, including my own. And not only that, but
there's the fact that social media started popping up around
that time, and I do think social media has had
a huge negative impact on the emotional development of a
lot of kids, a lot of teens. You know, I
(11:18):
had MySpace and middle.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
School good on my Space.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Yeah, and then I think, like Facebook was just starting
to be a thing when I graduated high school. Nowadays
it feels like everybody has their own phone, Like all
the teenagers have TikTok. And I know for a fact
that you know, the sort of imagery and the sort
of you know, expectations for what your life should be
like through something like TikTok is like not super healthy.
(11:47):
I think it's pretty toxic. So all this to say,
I think social media and phones not healthy for kids,
and I think the numbers reflect that.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Agreed one hundred percent. You know, I have, as we know,
I have a love hate relationship with with social media.
Russia is the one who introduced me to my Space,
and I think mom is the one who introduced me
to Facebook. Like I had no clue, you know. But
I agree with you, and I think this is something
that we can see in the story of Conrad Roy,
(12:16):
you know, dealing with this social media. So Trevor, with
that being said, can you please shed light on Conrad
Roy's story.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Yeah, So Conrad was born on September twelfth, nineteen ninety five,
in Mattapoisett, Massachusetts. To all you New Englanders, I'm sorry
if I butcher that Conrad worked with his family's marine
salvaging business, and after high school he got his own
captain's license from the Northeast Maritime Institute, which is very impressive.
(12:48):
Very he was super intelligent at a super high GPA
in high school. But Conrad did deal with a ton
of issues growing up, of course, not limited to depression
and anxiety, he allegedly also dealt with abuse from his
father and grandfather, and then when his parents divorced in
twenty twelve, Conrad did attempt suicide. Luckily, on that occasion
(13:13):
he was unsuccessful.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
I can totally relate to this because divorce. When you
talk about divorce, and I remember when you know, my
parents divorced, how devastating that can be on kids, you know,
having to go through a messy divorce, you know, with
their parents and they're seeing all of that. So I'm
sure you know, Conrad had a lot more going on
than even his parents knew about at that time, because
(13:36):
they were probably going through, you know, their own things obviously,
But this is about the time that Conrad actually met Michelle,
and this is back in twenty twelve.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Yeah, it's interesting how this kind of lines up. But
both Conrad's family and Michelle Carter's family happened to be
in vacation in Florida at the same time in twenty
twelve from Massachusetts though, so the two of them met,
their families, kind of found each other, and they started
texting and messaging each other Conrad and Michelle.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Did I know Michelle also dealt with mental health struggles,
like just like Conrad did, so of course, I'm sure
they had a lot in common. And she also was
on Selexa for anxiety and depression, so you know, again,
they probably cemented a bond during this time, talking about
(14:30):
all of the things that both of them are going.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Through, and I think all the things that teenagers talk about, right, yeah, yeah,
and they were bonding over something that they both were
openly going through. And it's during this time that, of course,
they proclaimed their love for one another. You know, I
remember we had beepers back in the day, you know,
like I think my hyders. Yeah, my high school sweetheart
(14:54):
would text me no I'm seeing I'm even saying text
would beep me the numbers one four to three, which
meant I love you, you know, So I'm like, oh,
you know they said one four to three, that means
they love me. So I think that was kind of
what Michelle and Conrad we're going through at the time.
And I think they only met in person a handful
(15:15):
of times, right, I think like five times they only met, right, I.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Mean somehow though they only lived about an hour away
from each other there in Massachusetts, and sometimes they'd like
make plans to meet up, but it never seemed to
really work out. I guess when you are maybe a
little far away, it's hard. But they claim to have
had a really strong connection over technology over phones. But yeah,
I mean there was basically little to no face to
(15:43):
face interaction between these two. Most of it was online,
and that's where the spark seemed to be. Michelle herself.
I know you talked a little bit about her mental
health struggles, but you know, at least in school, she
was very liked and very popular. Her classmates voted her
most likely to brighten your day, and maybe that sort
of extroverted personality is what attracted Conrad. She also, as
(16:07):
you alluded to, had been dealing with mental health problems
since I think she was like eight or nine, so
I read that she had had an eating disorder when
she was yeah, very very young, and had been put
on various forms of medication, like before middle school, which
is wild very.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Very very young age.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
So I mean, with everything you just said, it just
makes sense that, of course they probably mostly talked about,
you know, stuff like this, like suicide. Right, And she
allegedly actually says that at one time she talked him down.
I should say a number of times she talked him
(16:48):
down from his suicide attempts. And this is over the
course of you know, two years or so, right.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Yeah, and in fact, a month before he actually did
take his own life, she writes to him, and I'm
going to be quoting a lot of different texts over
the course of this episode, but here's one. She said,
quote you need professional help like me. End quote. But
then that changes. On July twelfth of twenty fourteen, the
(17:18):
day before he was found dead, she sent this really
chilling message at four nineteen in the morning. She writes, quote,
you can't think about it. You just have to do it.
You said you were going to do it, Like I
don't get why you aren't end quote, and he writes back, quote,
I don't get it either. I don't know end quote.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Oh god, it just breaks my heart.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
I would be like, don't do it, right.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
I Mean that's the weird part, right, That's what makes
this casee weird, is that she seems to be really
egging im on, well, like supportive at first, but like
there's this weird turn that happens where she's like, all
of a sudden, like, eh, just just do it right,
just get it over with, Like she's kind of like
frustrated that he's.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Not actually going through with it.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Yeah, like going through with it. And that's like the
kind of like nugget of evil that people seem to
kind of latch onto. When we talk about this case,
it is like what would drive someone to do that thing?
Or and why was there a turn?
Speaker 3 (18:13):
Right? Why did she flip? Right? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Because he was clearly hesitating, right, he was not fully
sure about this thing. But it's it's clear that she's
at least like pushing on him by this point.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
And apparently he's sort of anxiously texting all day and
his family does notice this, and his sister Camden actually
told reporters that at the time, she didn't know who
he was texting with, but in fact he was texting
with Michelle Carter and the two were going back and
forth about his plans to kill himself later that day,
(18:47):
and he wrote to her that he was worried about
leaving his family behind. He really loved his family, and
he wrote, quote like I want them to know that
I love them end quote. Michelle's re response was quote,
they know. That's one thing. They definitely know. End quote,
And earlier she'd texted, quote, everyone will be sad for
(19:09):
a while, but they will get over it and move
on end quote. Gosh, like it's so sad. And then
around six o'clock that evening, Conrad drove off in his truck,
saying he was going to see a friend and that
was the last time his family would ever see him alive.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
We do need to take a quick break, but we'll
keep moving with the story when we come back.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
So it wasn't like Conrad Roy to disappear for very long.
He'd driven off in his truck late the afternoon of
July twelfth, and his family had no clue where he was.
His mother, of course, became concerned and texted him in
the middle of the night, but received no response. Still,
she was assuming that everything was okay. She knew about
(20:00):
his struggles with depression, and she truly believed that he
would overcome it.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Then something odd happened. Late that night, Conrad's sister, Camden,
received the text from Michelle Carter. To Camden, Michelle was
just this random friend of Conrad's who lived somewhere else.
So his sister really had no idea the connection that
these two had. She didn't know that they were supposedly
(20:27):
boyfriend and girlfriend. She just knew that they had met
right on vacation.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Right, yeah, I know what he did. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
And in talking about this to a reporter, Camden said
that she thought her brother and Michelle were just friends.
But in this message, Michelle tells Camden, quote, we're boyfriend
and girlfriend now end quote, and then she asks, quote
do you know where your brother is? End quote?
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Oh, this right here is like my first thought is like,
this is sick. Yeah, because she knows where her brother
is and for her to say that that is disturbing.
It also makes me think of a sociopath.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Like that, it doesn't quiet add up.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
It's also weird that she would make this declaration that
their boyfriend and girlfriend. Now, I mean, if you're assuming
that Conrad has taken his own life by this point, like,
why are you, I don't know, suggesting that you are
like together and dating.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
It's just like she wants to feel seen and feel
important in this horrific time.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
I think like she's in control of the situation somehow. Anyhow,
so the next day the family does go searching for Conrad,
and at one point his mother gets the sort of
what she describes as a rush through her body and
she kind of senses spiritually that her son is gone.
And it turns out that he is, and they find
(21:55):
him in his truck in a remote corner of a
kmart parking a lot. So he had turned on a
gas powered water pump in his truck and let the
cabin fill up with carbon monoxide and he died of asphyxiation.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
Yeah, and meanwhile, Michelle Carter's weird behavior intensifies. She ends
up showing up at the funeral a few days later
and apparently makes a little bit of a scene.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Yeah. A friend of Conrad says, Michelle seemed to be
acting out the role of a grieving widow. It's almost
like like she was obsessed with Glee and the characters
on Glee. It likes it seemed like a performance, right, right.
But the family then discovers she's been also organizing this
(22:51):
charity event in Conrad Roy's name, and the family has
no idea.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
Yeah, and Michelle presents herself as this anti suicide advocate
and she did set up this memorial. It was actually
a memorial softball game in his memory. And all of
this just strikes the family as odd. One they didn't
even know who she was, and I watched a documentary
all about it. She set it up in her hometown
(23:19):
rather than in Conrad's.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Yeah, it's it's weird. I wonder like how she sees herself.
That's like the one thing I can never really get
a good grasp on. The more I read about this
and you know, watch videos. Does she actually see herself
as an anti suicide advocate? Does she actually think that
she's like a positive force making a difference in the
field of mental health or is this all like this
(23:43):
really kind of like messed up, you know, power trip
facade thing. And I really don't know, but you know,
it's either one she's like an evil person, or two
she's like delusional. Those are like the only two options
I can see here.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
You know, I think it's both, Trevor, I would have
to say, I mean, just in my opinion, you know, like, yes,
she is delusional and at the same time, what she's
doing is evil.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
I would like to jump in as a devil's advocate
for a moment, only because I know what I was
like at seventeen, you know what I mean, Like, granted
I was never in that position, but her brain wasn't
even fully developed yet, and she herself had mental health issues.
That's the only thing I can you know what I mean,
Like she was seventeen, Yeah, she was seventeen. Does it
(24:33):
make it okay? No? Was she an anti suicide advocate
when she talked him into killing himself, you know, just
a few days prior?
Speaker 1 (24:40):
No, Yeah, that's a good point. I do think we
forget that, Like, yeah, you're right, Like her brain's not developed,
she's a minor.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
Yeah, it's still heartbreaking.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
And I have to say too, you know, like even
you know her doing all this, like for me, I.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
Would be like, who is this girl? Where did she
come from?
Speaker 2 (24:56):
But I'm sure you know, at the time, right her family,
they were in shock, you know, and grieving the loss
of their son. So either're thinking, oh, you know, I know,
the mother is thinking, well, at least he had this
girlfriend who loved and adored him, so she thought, even.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
Though they didn't know about her in the moment when
he was alive. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Yeah, So I mean, let's talk about the investigation then.
So it's ruled a suicide and the police to decide
to look into it a little more, and they find
his phone. They're able to get into it, and that
is where they discover all of these messages from Michelle Carter.
So he had erased all other text threads on his
(25:41):
phone except for the ones with Michelle, So it was
almost like a focal point when they checked his phone.
It was like all these messages were there and that
was the only thing on his phone. And in the messages,
what they find, without a doubt, is very damning. I know,
we love a few of them, but here are some
more we can go into.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
I mean, no kidding, I mean, let's get into it.
In one exchange, he asked her how was your day,
and she responds, when are you going to do it?
My day was okay, how was yours? I mean, how
bizarre is that into me? That's just cruel?
Speaker 3 (26:19):
Yeah, yeah, it's so gross and creepy.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Yeah. And it goes on and they talk about their day,
and then she says again, when are you going to
do it? Stop ignoring the question.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
What the hell? Just keep sagging, And there's yet another exchange.
This is after he's been depressed for quite some time.
She's advocating for suicide as his best option and writes, quote,
it's painless and quick end quote. And this is between
all of these professions of love for him. So it's
(26:54):
like kind of manic, right, like going back and forth.
And one thing that's incredibly chilling is that she even
brings her friends into this. So just over a week
after Conrad dies, she texted a friend telling her she's
worried that she'd be implicated in his death. And she
does this sort of with of course, all the trauma
(27:16):
of a teenager, and she writes to her friend Sam,
quote Sam, they read my messages with him. I'm done.
His family will hate me and I can go to
jail end quote. Later she tells this friend Sam that
she was there when Conrad Rory actually took his last breath.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
So obviously, I mean, she is clearly taking pleasure in this,
like in all of it. And again like she she knows,
she knows what she did.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
Yeah, I mean I think she probably at least has
some sort of like twisted logic in her head that, yeah,
you know, this was like the right thing to do somehow,
like this was like a mercy and that, like it's
just that nobody else will understand, but like at least
we know that we loved each other and this was
like the healthiest thing or something like that.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Yeah, it's almost as if it's like the whole thing
is very intoxicating, Like she's playing out on both sides
of it.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
You know, she acts like she loves him, yet she
wants him to take his life right right. And yeah,
it's very much a movie. And I can understand why
it was made into a mini series on Hulu, Like
I totally can see the dramatization of it. But again,
we have to remember right when we were teenagers, you
(28:32):
know how everything was so loaded with drama. Well, I
was never dramatic. I don't know what anyone's talking about,
but you know, many I know just kidding, but no,
many you know, especially you know teenage you know, more
feminine kids like I think they definitely have a flair
for the dramatic. And even when you're talking about death,
(28:54):
when you're talking about it, it doesn't seem real, right, So
maybe Michelle didn't think he was actually ever going to
do it. She was just being super dramatic because we
don't fully understand. I think when we're teenagers that anyone's
going to die, right, And that's kind of the sense
of what I'm getting here. I don't think she was
a cold blooded, heartless murderer. I just think she needed
(29:17):
She was reaching out for help as well.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
I think, yeah, I mean, going back to my question
earlier about like whether or not she was just delusional
or a bad person, I mean the way you say that,
you know, leans towards the more delusional yeah theory, right,
that you know, in her own mind, maybe she really
thought this was like her own Romeo and Juliet story
(29:39):
in some kind of dark, twisted way, and therefore it
was justified. I feel like she's just like doesn't have
a grip on reality, and I think maybe some of
her other mental health issues would back that up.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Yeah, so absolutely. I mean in the medications that she
was on as well.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Right, exactly exactly, And that's something they bring up a
lot in the trials, which get to so speaking of trials, though,
Michelle Carter is in fact indicted. So on February fourth
of twenty fifteen, they indict her with involuntary manslaughter and
she has arraigned the very next day and charged as
a youthful offender since she was only seventeen at the
(30:17):
time of Conrad's death. And so this big trial is
where a lot of crazy things happen. So we're going
to talk about that trial in just a minute. We
do have to take another quick break, though, so we
will be back after that.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
At trial, the prosecution has an abundance of evidence against
Michelle Carter in the case of Conrad Roy's death, and
they have so much evidence, of course, in the form
of these thousands of texts. So first of all, she
helped him find his method. She actually wrote to him
and another quote here, hanging is painless and takes like
(30:59):
a second if you do it right. End quote. Right.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
I mean, we know though that that's not how he
actually died. But five days before his suicide she sent
him a news release from the US Consumer Product Safety
Commission entitled quote winter Warning, Portable generators hold top spot
in CPSC report on carbon monoxide deaths and incidents. So
she sends him this report, and then minutes before they've
(31:26):
been texting about ways to generate carbon monoxide. And then
she tells him in another text, quote google ways to
make it end quote Wow, And then she sends him
this news release that I just mentioned, and he responds,
quote portable generator, that's it. End quote. So that's where
he gets the idea.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
And it's so crazy because they actually made a TV
show which is on Hulu and it's called The Girl
from Plainville, and this story it garnered so much attention
because again, in how often have we seen on television
where a teenage girl tells her boyfriend just kill yourself?
(32:08):
Just do it right?
Speaker 3 (32:10):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (32:10):
I mean, I think you know, it could be this
sort of thing happens more often than we know about.
But it definitely felt like the first public case of
this sort, which is why it gets so much media attention,
which I know we'll get to in a second. But
the only other thing this case reminds me of is
a very different type of scenario, but kind of goes
back to this question of whether or not seventeen year
(32:32):
olds with mental health problems should be held accountable. Is
the DC sniper case. If you remember, one of the
shooters was a seventeen year old boy who was largely
kind of opted into it by an older man, And
there was always this question of, like, you know, should
the seventeen year old be held accountable for something that
like maybe he was led into doing an adult manipulated,
(32:55):
maybe brainwashed, even you know, it becomes very gray because
the more that you talked to him his name was Malvo,
Lee Malvo, you know, the more you realize like he
definitely had enough facilities to like know right from wrong
by seventeen. And I think you can kind of apply
that same logic to Michelle here, which is like at seventeen,
(33:16):
like say what you will about some of her mental
health problems, but you still generally have an idea of
like what is right and what's wrong. Right, Yeah, And
the fact that she was texting her friend right like, hey,
they're going to get me if they read these texts,
Like she knew this was wrong and she was going
to get in trouble for it. So that's what they're
all looking at right now in this trial. The other
(33:36):
points the prosecution makes are that Michelle spent weeks talking
Conrad out of his doubts, you know, all that your
family won't get over it stuff. You know, she was
trying to like chip away at some of the things
that we're holding him back.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Yeah, And I guess we just go back again and again,
like why would she do this?
Speaker 3 (33:55):
Yeah? And I was watching a documentary earlier today preparing
for episode, and I saw the prosecution arguing that she
was desperate for friends and attention, and days before Conrad's death,
she sent text to the girls that she supposedly wanted
to get closer with, wanted to be more popular around,
(34:18):
pretending that Conrad was missing to get their sympathy, like
she kind of had a dry run a few days
before he actually took his life. And in fact, prosecutors
went so far as to say that Conrad still being
alive was actually a problem for Michelle because of the
lies she had spun a few days earlier with her friends,
So if he remained alive, it would expose her as
(34:41):
a liar, right.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
So I mean that kind of sens was there. Yeah,
but really that's not even the darkest part of it.
So at about six point thirty on the night of
his death, they end up talking for forty five minutes
or so over the phone. So, according to one article,
quote during that conversation, as the cab of the truck
filled with gas fumes, Roy decided to get out. Carter
(35:05):
later told a friend and in a message she probably
didn't expect to ever become public, she wrote, quote, I
fucking told him to get back in the truck. Yeah,
So he actually was like backing out of this. He
was ready to get out of that truck, and right
at the last moment, she told him to follow through,
(35:28):
get back in there, finish the job.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
So so gross. It's like she put the nail in
his coffin, even though he's the one that put himself there,
right she did.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
I mean, it sounds like she wanted him dead.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
Yeah. And meanwhile, you know she's already lying to her
friends and saying that she was afraid he'd killed himself.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
So disturbing on so many levels, because first of all,
she knows where he's at. She could have, you know,
easily called his mom, called his sister called nine one one,
but instead, like you said, she put the nail in
the coffin and told him to get back in the truck,
I mean a vet.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Like you said, she's kind of playing both sides of this, right, Yeah,
she's trying to be the virtuous girlfriend, but then also
trying to gain sympathy, knowing full well that this is
like kind of a sham situation that she's been in
control of the whole time. Right, Well, let's talk about
the defense in this trial. So those defending Michelle Carter
(36:29):
say that Conrad Roy was planning to kill himself anyway,
and point to his past attempts. They say she didn't
threaten or physically assist him, that she just wanted to
help him, I guess, basically to escape the mental anguish
that he was in. They also say that she should
not be charged as an adult, and they frame all
of this as a matter of free speech, and this
(36:52):
becomes a slippery slope you get into when it comes
to right to die issues, which we probably should talk
about at some point today. But despite all of this,
she is indeed convicted. She's found guilty of involuntary manslaughter,
and she's sentenced to two and a half years, made
up of fifteen months in jail in a period of
supervised probation, which is pretty short. It is, so that
(37:15):
means that she's out already today. She was released in
January of twenty twenty, getting out three months early for
good behavior.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
Yeah. And it's actually kind of sad when you think
about it, because in her yearbook, Michelle was voted quote
most likely to brighten your day end quote.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
Yeah. It's the irony here.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Yeah, that is the irony when looking at this case, Like,
I just have to go back to words are very powerful,
and those words that she sent in that text, you know,
telling Conrad to get back in that car, to me,
(37:55):
that is an act of violence.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
She could have gotten him help, She could.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Have gotten him help, but the words that she chose
were so incredibly powerful that he got back in that
car and now he's not here.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
Yeah, I mean there's no doubt that she's partially responsible
for this, Right, It's just like the question is like
to what degree? And then also like what is the
right punishment for the level of involvement that she had,
because there hasn't really been anything like this before, right,
there's not much of a president. I don't know. And
that's part of this next, maybe big last topic here,
(38:31):
which is that this case became huge. It was notorious.
I mean I remember seeing Michelle Carter's face everywhere in
twenty fourteen. Yeah, we've had documentaries, We've had the fictional
show all about Michelle Carter on Hulu. I mean, I
don't know, what do you guys think, Like, why are
people so into this case? Other than that, you know,
I guess we've never seen anything like this before.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
It's just fascinating because if you look at her, like
she's a beautiful girl, like you would think everything is
fine in life, so, you.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
Know, right, And I think part of that is she's
like good looking, seemingly you know, pretty, she's white, she's
from the suburbs, and she was caught doing and seeing
these horrific and horrible things. And I think that fascinated
people in a way. I mean, people love salacious true crime,
(39:22):
and this is as salacious as you can get. It's
messed up in so many ways.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
Yeah, there's a bit of cognitive dissonance there, I guess,
And I guess I've always not like necessarily how the
coverage of the story focused on Michelle, you know, and
not Conrad. Yeah, exactly. You know, I guess she is
like the monster of the story, right, Like when we
hear about Jeffrey Dahmer, we hear about Dahmer. We don't
hear about the people he killed usually, right, you know,
(39:48):
people like to focus on the person, and you know,
coming from the journalism world, they you know, red flag
that all the time, like don't talk about the shooter
when there's a school shooting, right, you know, don't talk
about the kill or don't give them attention to, don't
give them a platform. You don't want to inspire other people,
you know, only talk about the victims. And the truth is,
like this isn't about Michelle. You know, we're talking about
(40:09):
a bigger problem here where youth today are dealing with
an epidemic of depression, you know, as we said, bolstered
by social media and phones and all that stuff. So
that's what we should be talking about.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
Yeah, etchever, that's right. And those statistics you mentioned at
the top, I mean there's been a huge increase in
recent years, which is so sad.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
Yeah, I mean two thousand and seven to twenty seventeen
was that window that we saw like a fifty plus
percent jump, you know, and I think we definitely we
need to curb that somehow. You know, we need to
realize that social media is probably making things worse if
we don't regulate it. And that's what I was saying
at the top. You know, we need to I think,
try harder now more than ever to you know, provide
(40:53):
mental health resources and like really think about the effects
of kind of isolated phone time.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
Yeah. Words are powerful, right they are. And I think
it's all about having conversations.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
Right.
Speaker 3 (41:07):
I'm a parent myself. Our little girl is ten, and
she has very fiercely protective moms and aunties and uncles
taking care of her. But it's about having conversations. So
I want to encourage all of the parents or you know,
just guardians out there. You don't even have to be
(41:28):
a parent. You can be an uncle and auntie, a cousin,
a friend, you know, check on your kids and you know,
look at the messages and the things that they're consuming.
Like I get a report every week of what Leilani
is watching on YouTube. But we have that open dialogue
and conversation. So I hope that other caregivers out there
can do that with you know, the young people in
(41:50):
their lives as well. But I know that we can't
control that. We can't wrap our kids and our youth
in a bubble, you know. I think I remember Conrad
Roy's mom saying, like I wish I had you know,
tied him, you know to the radiator of the day before,
Like you can't live your life like that. So resources,
(42:10):
like we have said, are very very important, and I
would love for you all to check out the Youth
Mental Health Project. They have a comprehensive list of issue
specific resources, everything from depression to bipolar disorder to schizophrenia,
and we will of course post more resources on our website.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
Our final message of hope and healing this week is
dedicated to Conrad Roy and other people who find themselves
in a deep struggle with depression.
Speaker 3 (42:46):
Severe depression can feel like absolute despair and it can
seem like there's no way out. Depression is an illness
and it's very real.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
We want to share with those who are going through
depression and those who know people struggling with it that
it can get better.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
Yes, and many people can get treatment for depression and
they are glad that they took the steps that they
needed in order to start feeling better, and it starts
by asking for help.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
Maybe Conrad Roy was never able to fully take those steps.
Today we honor him, his family and everyone out there
who's ever struggled with depression in their own family. You
are not alone. Onward and Upward, Emua emua.
Speaker 3 (43:41):
Well, that's our show for today, And as we said
at the beginning of the episode, if you or someone
you know is struggling with thoughts of suicide, please call
the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at one eight hundred two
seven three eight two five five. We would love to
hear what you thought about today discussion and if there's
(44:01):
a case you'd like for us to cover, find us
on social media at Facing Evil Pod or email us
at Facing Eagle Pod at tenderfoot dot tv until next
time Aloha.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV.
The show is hosted by Russia paccuerero in Avet Gentile,
Matt Frederick, and Alex Williams, our executive producers on behalf
of iHeartRadio, with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk, Donald
Albright In Payne Lindsay Our executive producers on behalf of
(44:43):
Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Claudia Dafrico.
Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on
social media or email us at Facing Evil, pod at
tenderfoot dot tv. More podcasts from iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
(45:07):
to your favorite shows.
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