August 18, 2022 • 45 mins
In 2014, 18-year-old Conrad Roy committed suicide. But then, his family was shocked to learn that his girlfriend, Michelle Carter, had urged him to take his own life. This week, Rasha and Yvette ask the question: how responsible was Carter for Roy's death?
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, everyone, Just a quick disclaimer before we get started.
Today's episode deals with topics of depression and suicide, so
please use discretion today and if this is a subject
matter you're not fully comfortable with, we recommend you maybe
give today's episode a skip. Lastly, if you or someone
you know is struggling with depression or suicidal ideations, please
(00:22):
call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at seven three, eight
to five. Thanks for listening. You're listening to Facing Evil,
a production of I Heart Radio and Tenderfoot TV. The
views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those
(00:42):
of the individuals participating in the show and do not
represent those of I Heart Radio or Tenderfoot TV. This
podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable for everyone.
Listener Discretion is advised. Hi, everyone, welcome back to Face
Evil from Tenderfoot TV and I Heart Radio. We are
(01:03):
your host. I'm Evett Gentile and I'm her baby sister
Rosha Peccarero, and with us, as always, is our amazing
producer Trevor Young. How do how do you? What's V?
I love it? When that texting comes out Hound, how
does and y'alls, I love it? Well, Trevor and Evett.
(01:24):
I really wanted to reach out to the two of
you today and to our listeners because, you know, Event
and I have been fortunate to do a lot of
press over the last few weeks. And one particular person
asked us a question that I think is so important
for the three of us and for our listeners, and
she said, what do you do for self care when
(01:46):
you're not doing facing evil, when you're not talking about
these crimes and these these horrible things that are happening.
So like for me, I loved that question because it
made me kind of stop and I was like, ah,
like a couple of things. One, I'm very thankful to
me in therapy, you know, because mental health is health.
(02:09):
And my therapist she actually ended up sadly. She she
passed away not not too long ago, unexpectedly. And I
have a new one and I had already started seeing her.
But that therapist, her name was Karen, and she told me,
every day, you know, set a reminder on your phone
and it literally says RuSHA practice mindfulness for the day.
(02:31):
And she's like, I don't care if you say one
good word to yourself or if you go and take
a hot bath because she knew I loved hot baths,
and so that's my one thing that I can do
for myself every day. But I want to know. I
want to know, Yvette, what do you do for self care?
And then I want to know what you do, Trevor. Gosh,
there's so many things that I do, But for me,
it's really about getting outside and taking in the fresh air,
(02:56):
you know, putting on my running shoes. You know, that's
really therapy for me, and just I don't have to
type in a password, you know, to go to my
yoga to the gym. It's just putting on those shoes
and and getting outside and just letting whatever is bothering
me or you know, exciting me, just let it all
(03:17):
resonate and take off running. That is kind of my
my go to right now. As well as you know,
I have a little ritual that I do every morning
where I like incense, um to bring on the new
day and to be divinely blessed and protected, you know,
as our mother would always say. So those are a
(03:37):
few of the things that I do. Chevor, what about you?
It's interesting and I think it's probably a very good
question for this episode. Um for me. I think I
learned a long time ago that the best thing I
can do for myself is have a healthy and regular
inner dialogue that's constantly running. So I'm constantly talking to myself,
you know. I think that's one of the great things
(03:58):
about something like therapy is you're just working through things
with somebody, right, Like you're kind of playing chess with somebody,
but like chess for your brain. And so what I've
always sought to do is kind of be playing chess
with myself all the time, you know. So if I'm
feeling something um, or if i'm you know, just have
something on my mind, I just always talk to myself.
(04:19):
I'm like, so, why am I feeling this way? You know,
maybe it's because you were you know this or that,
or you had gone through this the day before, and
I'm like, that's interesting, and that makes me think back
to when I had this experience, you know. So I'm
just always kind of working through things in my head. Um.
It's not always possible, especially if you're really tired or
stressed out, so you know when you can, and I
(04:41):
always try and set situations up for that sort of thing.
So I do I do that best probably like on drives, walks,
you know, bus rides, whatever it is, and that kind
of keeps me objective, keeps me aware of where I'm
at and how I'm feeling, and um kind of helps
me process us a lot. So and I think all
(05:01):
of that self care is really amazing to think about
and talk about. And like you said, Trevor, I think
it's great for today's case, and I would be honored
if you could actually take us through it. My son
was my best friend through the height of his depression.
That was by a side trying to build the spirits
into effect his behavior positively. She just thought she was
(05:24):
an acquaintance of Conrad's nothing more. At the heart of
this closely watched case, her text messages and phone calls
encouraging him to commit suicide, and the debate over whether
words can kill. Many questioning whether Michelle Carter should have
ever been charged in the death of her boyfriend, given
that no other internet case has resulted in a homicide conviction,
(05:44):
and now big questions about that light sentence she got
that seemed as stunned the victims family. Conrad Roy was
an eighteen year old from Massachusetts who died by suicide
in He had just graduated from high school and was
getting ready to attend to college. But Conrad had struggled
(06:04):
with depression and suicidal ideations for years, having attempted suicide
two years earlier. And then on July, Conrad was found
in his truck dead of carbon monoxide asphyxiation in an
apparent suicide. The family soon learned that leading up to
his death, Conrad had been texting with a girl named
(06:26):
Michelle Carter. When police searched his phone, they discovered hundreds
of text messages from Michelle urging Conrad to take his
own life. The following year, Carter was indicted for manslaughter.
The case and the trial became highly publicized as one
of the first cases to ask was someone criminally responsible
(06:48):
for encouraging someone else to kill themselves? And since then
there have been numerous documentaries and even a fictionalized television
show about the case and so what really led to
Conrad Roy's death? To what degree was Michelle Carter responsible?
And what does this case tell us about the mental
health needs of youth in the age of technology and
(07:10):
social media. You know, Trevor, I remember when this happened,
and to be honest I looked at it from two
different perspectives. One, my daughter was very young at the
time that this happened, and you know, we didn't have
social media when you've got and were kids, and I
(07:32):
think you did have it a little bit, Trevor. But
I think what was so shocking to me is like,
could his girlfriend. Could Conrad Roy's girlfriend have actually caused this?
Was she the reason he finally decided to do it?
And I do want to be a little sensitive to
(07:53):
you know, people who have had, you know, suicidal ideations
or thoughts of suicide. I am not one of those people,
no matter how bad it's gotten for me. I've just
never been in that dark of a place, thankfully. But
I asked my wife before doing this episode if I
could share a little bit of her journey because when
this happened, of course, I always think about her, right
(08:14):
and I know her history, and she's been very open
about dealing with depression every day, and she herself has
attempted suicide a couple of times in her lifetime before
we met, and you know, before I met her, I
think I always thought that someone always has a choice, right,
like they can always choose to not do it, but
(08:37):
sometimes maybe they just don't have that choice. Maybe it
is medical, maybe it is chemical, And like mental health
is so so, so so important. It is, and it's
it's so important, and it's so different for everybody. And
I think that's what we're realizing, especially you know, with
(08:58):
this story that we're about to tell. You know, I
can't even imagine, you know, how Conrad's family felt when,
you know, they discovered these thousands and thousands of texts
from this girl that they don't even know, Like, how
could this and why did this happen? Yeah, and that's
(09:19):
something we're going to obviously talk about today, but I
will just say this is really the time period in
someone's life that is the most sensitive. Probably right, that's
not true for everybody, but like being a teenager, being
an adolescence is very emotionally difficult. And the fact is
Conrad Roy was indeed part of a bigger, the regrettable trend.
(09:44):
And the data does actually show that teenage boys are
more likely to die by suicide than girls, which is
something to consider that maybe not everybody knows. Yeah, that's
it's so true. And and there's a another trend too
that I learned about while researching for this episode, and
(10:05):
rates of teen suicide and mental illness have actually increased
in recent decades, and one report showed that the suicide
death rate among people between the ages of ten and
twenty four increased fifty six percent between the years two
thousand seven. And I believe that that is an alarming,
(10:27):
alarming number. I mean, why do we think this is happening?
And especially two teens? What do you guys think? I mean,
it's there are like a lot of things that experts
have looked at, UM, and there's like plenty to pick from,
especially in today's day and age. Right, So one big
factor that we can look at is economic stress. If
(10:47):
you remember UM two thousand eight, which is right at
the start of those numbers, As you mentioned Russia, there
was a huge recession that had a massive impact on
a lot of families, especially kids, including my own. And
not only that, but there's the fact that social media
started popping up around that time, and I do think
social media has had a huge negative impact on the
(11:11):
emotional development of a lot of kids, a lot of teens.
You know, Um, I had my Space and middle school, yeah,
and then I think like Facebook was just starting to
be a thing when I graduated high school. Nowadays it
feels like everybody has their own phone, Like all the
(11:33):
teenagers have TikTok. And I know for a fact that
you know, the sort of imagery and the sort of um,
you know, expectations for what your life should be like
through something like TikTok is like not super healthy. I
think it's pretty toxic. So all this to say, I
think social media and phones not healthy for kids, and
I think the numbers reflect that. Agreed. You know, I
(11:57):
have As we know, I have a love hate relationship
with with social media. Rush is the one who introduced
me to my Space, and I think Mom is the
one to introduced me to Facebook. Like I had no clue,
you know, but I I agree with you, and I
think this is something that we can see in the
story of Conrad Roy, you know, dealing with this social media.
(12:20):
So Trevor, with that being said, can you please shed
light on Conrad Roy's story. Yeah. So, Conrad was born
on September twelve in Mattapoisett, Massachusetts. To all you New Englanders,
I'm sorry if I butchered that. Conrad worked with his
family's marine salvaging business and after high school he got
(12:43):
his own captain's license from the Northeast Maritime Institute, which
is very impressive. He was super intelligent, had a super
high GP in high school. Um. But Conrad did deal
with a ton of issues growing up, of course, not
limited to depression and anxiety. He allegedly also dealt with
abuse from his father and grandfather, and then when his
(13:06):
parents divorced in two thousand twelve, Conrad did attempt suicide. Luckily,
on that occasion he was unsuccessful. I can totally relate
to this because divorce. When you talk about divorce, and
I remember when you know, my parents divorced, how devastating
that can be on kids, you know, having to go
through a messy divorce, you know, with their parents, and
(13:28):
they're seeing all of that. So I'm sure you know,
Conrad had a lot more going on than even his
parents knew about at that time because they were probably
going through you know, their own things obviously. Um, but
this is about the time that Conrad actually met Michelle,
and this is back in two thousand and twelve. Yeah,
(13:48):
it's interesting how this kind of lines up. But both
Conrad's family and Michelle Carter's family happened to be in
vacation in Florida at the same time in two thousand twelve.
Other from Massachusetts though, so the two of them met,
their families, kind of found each other, and they started
texting and messaging each other. Conrad and Michelle. Did I
(14:09):
know Michelle also dealt with mental health struggles like just
like Conrad, it did, so of course, I'm sure they
had a lot in common. And she also was on
Selexa for anxiety and depression, so you know, again, they
probably cemented a bond during this time, talking about all
(14:30):
of the things that both of them are going through,
and I think all the things that teenagers talk about, right,
and they were bonding over something that they both were
openly going through. And it's during this time that, of course,
they proclaimed their love for one another. You know, I
remember we had beepers back in the day, you know,
like I think my yeah, my high school sweetheart would
(14:54):
text me no I'm seeing I'm even saying text would
beep me the numbers one for three, which meant I
love you, you know, So I'm like, oh, you know
they said one for three that means they loved me.
So I think that was kind of what Michelle and
Conrad we're going through at the time. And I think
they only met in person a handful of times, right,
(15:16):
I think like five times they only met I mean
somehow though they only lived about an hour away from
each other there in Massachusetts, and sometimes they'd like make
plans to meet up, but it never seemed to really
work out. I guess when you are maybe a little
far away, it's hard. But they claimed to have had
a really strong connection over technology over phones. Um. But yeah,
(15:39):
I mean there was basically little to know face to
face interaction between these two. Most of it was online,
and that's where the spark seemed to be. UM. Michelle herself,
I know you talked a little bit about her mental
health struggles, but you know, at least in school, she
was very liked and very popular. Her classmates voted her
most likely to brighten your day, and maybe that sort
(16:01):
of extroverted personality is what attracted Conrad. Um. She also,
as you alluded to, had been dealing with mental health
problems since I think she was like eight or nine.
So I read that she had had an eating disorder
when she was very young and had been put on
various forms of medication like before middle school, which is wild,
(16:26):
very very very young age. So I mean, with everything
you just said, it just makes sense that, of course
they probably mostly talked about, you know, stuff like this,
like suicide. Right, And she allegedly actually says that at
one time she talked him down. I should say a
(16:47):
number of times she talked him down from his suicide attempts.
And this is over the course of you know, two
years or so, right, Yeah, and in fact, a month
before he actually did take his own life. She writes
to him, and I'm going to be quoting a lot
of different texts over the course of this episode, but
here's one. She said, quote you need professional help like me.
(17:11):
End quote. But then that changes. On July twelve, two fourteen,
the day before he was found dead, she sent this
really chilling message at four nineteen in the morning. She writes, quote,
you can't think about it. You just have to do it.
You said you were going to do it, Like, I
don't get why you aren't. End quote, and he writes back,
(17:35):
quote I don't get it either. I don't know. End quote.
Oh God, it just breaks my heart. I would be like,
don't do it, right, I mean, that's The weird part, right,
That's what makes this case weird, is that she seems
to be really egging him on, well, like supportive at first,
but like there's this weird turn that happens. That's where
she's like, all of a sudden, like just just do it, right,
just just get it over with, Like she's kind of
(17:57):
like frustrated that he's not actually going through with it. Yeah,
like going through with it. And that's like the kind
of like nugget of of evil that people seem to
kind of latch onto. When we talk about this case,
it's like what would drive someone to do that thing?
Or and why was there a turn? Right? Why did
she flip? Right? Yeah, because he was slip. He was
(18:18):
clearly hesitating. He was not fully sure about this thing.
But it's it's clear that she's at least like pushing
on him by this point. And apparently he's sort of
anxiously texting all day and his family does notice this,
and his sister Camden actually told reporters that at the
time she didn't know who he was texting with, but
(18:39):
in fact, he was texting with Michelle Carter and the
two were going back and forth about his plans to
kill himself later that day, and he wrote to her
that he was worried about leaving his family behind. He
really loved his family, and he wrote, quote like I
want them to know that I love them end quote.
Michelle's response was quote, they know. That's one thing. They
(19:03):
definitely know. End quote. And earlier she texted, quote, everyone
will be sad for a while, but they will get
over it and move on. End quote. Gosh, like it's
so sad. And then around six o'clock that evening, Conrad
drove off in his truck, saying he was going to
see a friend and that was the last time his
(19:25):
family would ever see him alive. We do need to
take a quick break, but we'll keep moving with the
story when we come back. So it wasn't like Conrad
Roy to disappear for very long. He'd driven off in
his truck late the afternoon of July twelve, and his
(19:45):
family had no clue where he was. His mother, of course,
became concerned and texted him in the middle of the night,
but received no response. Still, she was assuming that everything
was okay. She knew about his struggles with depression, and
she truly believed that he would overcome it. Then something
(20:07):
odd happened. Late that night, Conrad's sister, Camden, received the
text from Michelle Carter to Camden, Michelle was just this
random friend of Conrad's who lived somewhere else. So his
sister really had no idea the connection that these two had.
She didn't know that they were supposedly boyfriend and girlfriend.
(20:29):
She just knew that they had met right on vacation,
right yeah. And in talking about this to a reporter,
Camden said that she thought her brother and Michelle were
just friends. But in this message, Michelle tells Camden, quote,
we're boyfriend and girlfriend now end quote, and then she asks,
quote do you know where your brother is? End quote? Oh? This,
(20:52):
this right here is like My first thought is like
this is sick because she knows where her brother is,
and for her to say that that is disturbing. It
also makes me think of a sociopath. Do you know
what I mean? Like that it doesn't quiet add up.
(21:13):
It's also weird that she would make this declaration that
their boyfriend and girlfriend. Now. I mean, if you're assuming
that Conrad has taken his own life by this point, like,
why are you, I don't know, suggesting that you are
like together and dating. It's just she she wants to
feel seen and feel important in this horrific time. I
think it's like she's in control of the situation somehow. Anyhow,
(21:38):
so the next day the family does go searching for Conrad,
and at one point his mother gets this sort of
what she describes as a rush through her body, and
she kind of senses spiritually that her son is gone. Uh.
And it turns out that he is, and they find
him in his truck in a remote corner of a
(21:59):
kmart parking a lot. So he had turned on a
gas powered water pump in his truck and let the
cabin fill up with carbon monoxide and he died of asphyxiation. Yeah.
And meanwhile, Michelle Carter's weird behavior intensifies. She ends up
(22:23):
showing up at the funeral a few days later and
apparently makes a little bit of a scene. Yeah. A
friend of Conrad says, Michelle seemed to be acting out
the role of a grieving widow. It's almost like like
she was obsessed with Glee and the characters on Glee.
It likes it seems like a performance, right. But the
(22:47):
family then discovers She's been also organizing this charity event
in Conrad Roy's name, and the family has no idea. Yeah,
and Michelle sense herself as this anti suicide advocate, and
she did set up this memorial It was actually a
memorial softball game in his memory. And all of this
(23:09):
just strikes the family as odd. One. They didn't even
know who she was. And I watched a documentary all
about it. She set up in her hometown rather than
in Conrad's. Yeah, it's it's weird. I wonder like how
she sees herself. That's like the one thing I can
never really get a good grasp on. The more I
read about this and you know, watch videos. Does she
(23:31):
actually see herself as an anti suicide advocate? Does she
actually think that she's like a positive force making a
difference in the field of mental health or is this
all like this really kind of like messed up, you know,
power trip facade thing. And I really don't know, but
you know, it's either one she's like an evil person
(23:53):
or two she's like delusional. Those are like the only
two options I can see here. You know, I think
it's both. Trevor, I would have to say, I mean,
just in my opinion, you know, like, yes, she is delusional,
and at the same time, what she's doing is evil.
I would like to jump in as a devil's advocate
(24:14):
for a moment, only because I know what I was
like at seventeen, you know what I mean. Like, granted
I I was never in that position, but her brain
wasn't even fully developed yet, and she herself had mental
health issues. That's the only thing I can you know
what I mean, Like she was seventeen, She was seventeen,
doesn't make it okay. Now, was she an anti suicide
(24:36):
advocate when she talked him into killing himself, you know,
just a few days prior. No, Yeah, that's a good point.
I do think we forget that, Like, yeah, you're right,
like her brains not developed, she's a miner. Yeah, it's
still heartbreaking, and I have to say to you know,
like even you know her doing all this, Like for me,
I would be like, who is this girl? Where did
she come from? But I'm sure you know at the time,
(24:58):
right her family they were in shock, you know, and
grieving the loss of their son. So either thinking, oh,
you know, I know the mother is thinking, well, at
least he had this girlfriend who loved and adored him,
so she thought, even though they didn't know about her
in the moment when he was alive. Yeah yeah, so
(25:21):
I mean let's talk about the investigation then. So it's
ruled a suicide and the police to decide to look
into it a little more um and they find his phone.
They're able to get into it, and that is where
they discover all of these messages from Michelle Carter. So
he had erased all other text threads on his phone
(25:42):
except for the ones with Michelle, So it was almost
like a focal point when they checked his phone. It
was like all these messages were there and that was
the only thing on his phone. And in the messages,
what they find, without a doubt, is very damning. I
know we read a few of them, but here are
some more we can go into. I mean, no, no kidding,
(26:03):
I mean, let's get into it. In one exchange, he
asked her how was your day? And she responds, when
are you going to do it? My day was okay,
how was yours? I mean, how bizarre is that into me?
That's like that's just cruel. Yeah, yeah, it's so gross
and creepy. Yeah, And it goes on and they talk
(26:24):
about their day, and then she says again, when are
you gonna do it? Stop ignoring the question what the hell?
And there's yet another exchange. This is after he's been
depressed for quite some time. She's advocating for suicide as
his best option and writes, quote it's painless and quick
(26:49):
end quote. And this is between all of these professions
of love for him. So it's like kind of manic, right,
like going back and forth. And one thing that's incredibly
chilling is that she even brings her friends into this.
So just over a week after Conrad dies, she texted
a friend telling her she's worried that she'd be implicated
(27:10):
in his death. And she does this sort of with
of course, all the drama of a teenager, and she
writes to her friend Sam, quote Sam, they read my
messages with him, I'm done. His family will hate me
and I can go to jail. End quote. Later she
tells this friend Sam that she was there when Conrad
(27:32):
Roy actually took his last breath. So obviously, I mean,
she is clearly taking pleasure in this, like in all
of it, and again like she she knows, she knows
what she did. Yeah, I mean I think she probably
at least has some sort of like twisted logic in
her head that you know, this was like the right
thing to do somehow, like this was like a mercy
(27:54):
and that, like it's just that nobody else will understand,
but at least we know that we loved each other
and this was like the healthiest thing or something like that. Yeah,
it's it's almost as if it's like the whole thing
is very intoxicating. Like she's playing out on both sides
of it. You know, she acts like she loves him. Yeah,
she wants him to take his life right, right, And yeah,
(28:17):
it's very much a movie. And I can understand why
it was made into a mini series on Hulu, Like
I totally can see the dramatization of it. But again,
we have to remember right when we were teenagers, you
know how everything was so loaded with drama. Well, I
was never dramatic. I don't know what anyone's talking about.
(28:38):
But you know, many I know, just kidding, but no, many,
you know, especially you know teenage you know, more feminine kids,
like I think they definitely have a flair for their
dramatic and even when you're talking about death, when you're
talking about it. It It doesn't seem real, right, So maybe
Michelle didn't think he was actually ever going to do it.
(29:00):
She was just being super dramatic because we don't fully
understand I think when we're teenagers that anyone's going to die, right,
And that's that's kind of the sense of what I'm
getting here. I don't think she was a cold blooded,
heartless murderer. I just think she needed She was reaching
out for help as well. I think, yeah. I mean,
(29:21):
going back to my question earlier about like whether or
not she was just delusional or a bad person, I
mean the way the way you say that, you know,
leans towards the more delusional theory. You right, that you know,
in her own mind, maybe she really thought this was
like her own Romeo and Juliette's story in some kind
of dark, twisted way, and therefore it was justified. I
(29:44):
feel like she's just like doesn't have a grip on reality,
and I think maybe some of her other mental health
issues would back that up so absolutely. I mean in
the medications that she was on as well, right, exactly exactly,
And that's something they bring up a lot in the trials,
which get to so speaking of trials, though, Michelle Carter
is in fact indicted. So on February four they indict
(30:09):
her with involuntary manslaughter and she has arraigned the very
next day and charged as a youthful offender since she
was only seventeen at the time of Conrad's death. And
so this big trial is where a lot of crazy
things happen. So we're going to talk about that trial
in just a minute. We do have to take another
quick break, though, so we will be back after that.
(30:36):
At trial, the prosecution has an abundance of evidence against
Michelle Carter in the case of Conrad Roy's death, and
they have so much evidence, of course, in the form
of these thousands of texts. So first of all, she
helped him find his method. She actually wrote to him
and another quote here, hanging is painless and takes like
(31:00):
second if you do it right. End quote right. I mean,
we know though that that's not how he actually died. Um,
But five days before his suicide, she sent him a
news release from the US Consumer Product Safety Commission entitled
quote winter Warning. Portable generators hold top spot in CPSC
report on carbon monoxide deaths and incidents. So she sends
(31:23):
him this report, and then minutes before they've been texting
about ways to generate carbon monoxide, and then she tells
him in another text, quote google ways to make it
end quote. And then she sends him this news release
that I just mentioned, and he responds, quote portable generator.
That's it. End quote. So that's where he gets the idea.
(31:47):
And it's so crazy because they actually made a TV
show which is on Hulu and it's called The Girl
from Plainville, and this story it garnered so much attention
because in how often have we seen on television where
a teenage girl tells her boyfriend just kill yourself, Just
(32:08):
do it right? Yeah, I mean I think you know
it could be this sort of thing happens more often
than we know about. But it definitely felt like the
first public case of this sort which is why it
gets so much media attention, which I know we'll get
to in a second. But the only other thing this
case reminds me of is a very different type of
scenario but kind of goes back to this question of
(32:30):
whether or not seventeen year olds with mental health problems
should be held accountable. Is the DC sniper case. If
you remember, one of the Shooters was a seventeen year
old boy who was largely kind of opted into it
by an older man, and there was always this question of, like,
you know, should the seventeen year old be held accountable
for something that like maybe he was led into doing
(32:53):
an adult, manipulated, maybe brainwashed, even you know, it becomes
very gray because the more that you talked to him
his name was Malvo Lee malvo Um, you know, the
more you realize like he definitely had enough facilities to
like no right from wrong by seventeen. And I think
you can kind of apply that same logic to Michelle here,
(33:14):
which is like at seventeen, like say what you will
about some of her mental health problems, but you still
generally have an idea of like what is right and
what it's wrong. Um. And the fact that she was
texting her like, hey, they're gonna get me if they
read these texts, Like she knew this was wrong and
she was going to get in trouble for it. So
that's what they're all looking at right now in this trial.
(33:36):
The other points of the prosecution makes are that Michelle
spent weeks talking Conrad out of his doubts, you know,
all that your family will get over its stuff, you know.
She was trying to chip away at some of the
things that we're holding him back. Yeah, And I guess
we just go back again and again, like why would
she do this? Yeah? And I was watching a documentary
(33:58):
earlier today preparing for episode, and I saw the prosecution
arguing that she was desperate for friends and attention, and
days before Conrad's death, she sent text to the girls
that she supposedly wanted to get closer with, wanted to
be more popular around, pretending that Conrad was missing to
(34:20):
get their sympathy, like she kind of had a dry
run a few days before he actually took his life.
And in fact, prosecutors went so far as to say
that Conrad still being alive was actually a problem for
Michelle because of the lies she had spun a few
days earlier with her friends, So if he remained alive,
it would expose her as a liar, right, So I
(34:44):
mean that kind of censores it, um, But really that's
not even the darkest part of it. So at about
six thirty on the night of his death, they end
up talking for forty five minutes or so over the phone. So,
according to one article, quote. During that conversation, and as
the cab of the truck filled with gas fumes, Roy
decided to get out. Carter later told a friend, and
(35:07):
in a message she probably didn't expect to ever become public,
she wrote, quote, I told him to get back in
the truck. Yeah, So he actually was like backing out
of this. He was ready to get out of that truck,
and right at the last moment, she told him to
(35:27):
follow through, get back in there, finish the job. So
so gross. It's like she put the nail in his coffin,
even though he's the one that put himself there, right
she did. I mean it sounds like she wanted him
to Yeah. And and meanwhile, you know she's already lying
to her friends and saying that she was afraid he'd
killed himself. Yeah. So so disturbing on so many levels,
(35:50):
because first of all, she knows where he's at. She
could have, you know, easily called his mom, called his sister, called,
but instead, like you said, she put the nail in
the coffin and told him to get back in the truck.
I mean a vet like you said, she's kind of
playing both sides of this, right, Like she's trying to
(36:10):
be the virtuous girlfriend, but then also trying to like
gain sympathy, knowing full well that this is like kind
of a sham situation that she's been in control of
the whole time. Well, let's talk about the defense in
this trial. So those defending Michelle Carter say that Conrad
(36:31):
Roy was planning to kill himself anyway, and point to
his past attempts. They say she didn't threaten or physically
assist him, that she just wanted to help him, I guess,
basically to escape the mental anguish that he was in.
They also say that she should not be charged as
an adult, and they frame all of this as a
matter of free speech, and this becomes a slippery slope
(36:53):
you get into when it comes to right to die issues,
which we probably should talk about at some point, maybe today.
But despite all of this, she is indeed convicted. She
has found guilty of involuntary manslaughter, and she's sentenced to
two and a half years made up of fifteen months
in jail in a period of supervised probation, which is
(37:13):
pretty short. So that means that she's out already today.
She was released in January, getting out three months early
for good behavior. Yeah, and it's actually kind of sad
when you think about it, because in her yearbook, Michelle
was voted quote most likely to brighten your day end quote. Yeah.
(37:33):
That's the ironing here, right, Yeah, that is the irony
when looking at this case, Like, I just have to
go back to words are very powerful, and those words
that she sent in that text, you know, telling Conrad
to get back in that car, to me, that is
(37:57):
an act of violence. She could have gotten him help,
She could have gotten him help. But the words that
she chose, we're so incredibly powerful. But he got back
in that car and now he's not here. Yeah, I
mean there's no doubt that, like, she's partially responsible for this, right,
It's just like the question is like to what degree?
(38:17):
And then also like what what is the right punishment
for the level of involvement that she had because there
hasn't really been anything like this before, right, there's not
much of a precedent. I don't know. And that's part
of this next maybe big last topic here, which is
that this case became huge. It was notorious. I mean
I remember seeing Michelle Carter's face everywhere. We've had documentaries,
(38:40):
we've had the fictional show all about Michelle Carter on Hulu.
I mean, I don't know, what do you guys think, Like,
why are people so into this case? Other than that,
you know, I guess we've never seen anything like this before.
It's just fascinating because you you look at her, like
she's a beautiful girl, like you would think everything is
fine in her life, so, you know, right, And I
(39:02):
think part of that is she's like good looking, seemingly
you know, pretty, she's white, she's from the suburbs, and
she was caught doing and seeing these horrific and horrible things.
And I think that fascinated people in a way. I mean,
people love salacious true crime, and this is as salacious
(39:24):
as you can get. It's messed up in so many ways.
There's a bit of cognitive dissonance there, I guess, And
I guess I've always not like necessarily how the coverage
of the story focused on Michelle, you know, um and
not Conrad. Yeah, exactly, you know, I guess she is
like the monster of the story, right, Like when we
hear about Jeffrey Dahmer, we hear about Dahmer. We don't
(39:46):
hear about the people he killed. Usually you know, people
like to focus on the person, and you know, coming
from the journalism world, they you know, red flag that
all the time, like don't talk about the shooter when
there's a school shooting, right, you know, don't talk about
the kill or don't give them attention, don't give them
a platform. You don't want to inspire other people, you know,
only talk about the victims. And the truth is, like,
(40:07):
this isn't about Michelle. You know, we're talking about a
bigger problem here where youth today are dealing with an
epidemic of depression, you know, as we said, bolstered by
social media and phones and all that stuff. So that's
what we should be talking about. Yeah, whichever, that's right.
And those statistics you mentioned at the top, I mean
there's been a huge increase in recent years, which is
(40:28):
so sad. Yeah, I mean two thousand seven to was
that window that we saw it, like a fifty plus
percent jump, um, you know, and I think we definitely
we need to curb that somehow. You know, we need
to realize that social media is probably making things worse
if we don't regulate it. And that's what I was
saying at the top. You know, we need to I
(40:48):
think try harder now more than ever to provide mental
health resources and like really think about the effects of
kind of isolated phone time. Yeah, and words are powerful, right,
And I think it's all about having conversations. Right. I'm
a parent myself. Our little girl is ten, and she
(41:11):
has very fiercely protective moms and auntie's and uncles taking
care of her. But it's about having conversations. So I
want to encourage all of the parents or you know,
just guardians out there. You don't even have to be
a parent. You can be an uncle and auntie, a cousin,
a friend, you know, check on your kids and you know,
(41:34):
look at the messages and the things that they're consuming.
Like I get a report every week of what Leilani
is watching on YouTube. But we have that open dialogue
and conversation. So I hope that other caregivers out there
can do that with you know, the young people in
their lives as well. But I know that we can't
control that. We can't wrap our kids and our youth
(41:56):
in a bubble, you know. I think I remember Conrad
Roy's mom saying, like I wish I had, you know,
tied them, you know, to the radiator of the day before, like,
you can't live your life like that. So resources, like
we have said, are very very important, and I would
love for you all to check out the Youth Mental
Health Project. They have a comprehensive list of issue specific
(42:19):
resources everything from depression to bipolar disorder to schizophrenia, and
we will of course post more resources on our website.
Our final message of hope and healing this week is
dedicated to Conrad Roy and other people who find themselves
(42:42):
in a deep struggle with depression. Severe depression can feel
like absolute despair and it can seem like there's no
way out. Depression is an illness and it's very real.
We want to share with those who are going through
depression and those who know people struggling with it, that
it can get better. Yes, and many people can get
(43:05):
treatment for depression and they are glad that they took
the steps that they needed in order to start feeling better.
And it starts by asking for help. Maybe Conrad Roy
was never able to fully take those steps. Today we
honor him, his family and everyone out there who's ever
struggled with depression in their own family. You are not alone.
(43:31):
Onward and upward imam, Well, that's our show for today,
and as we said at the beginning of the episode,
if you or someone you know is struggling with thoughts
of suicide, please call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at
(43:54):
seven three, eight to five five. We would love to
hear what you thought about today, a discussion and if
there's a case you'd like for us to cover. Find
us on social media at Facing Evil Pod or email
us at Facing Evil Pod at tenderfoot dot tv until
next time. Aloha. Facing Evil is a production of I
(44:25):
Heart Radio and Tenderfoot TV. The show is hosted by
Russia Peccarero and a Vetch and til Matt Frederick and
Alex Williams are executive producers on behalf of I Heart Radio,
with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk. Donald Albright and
Payne Lindsay our executive producers on behalf of Tenderfoot TV,
alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Claudia Dafrico. Original
(44:51):
music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on social
media or email us at Facing Evil Pod at Tenderfoot
dot tv. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio or
Tenderfoot TV, Visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hey, everyone, Just a quick disclaimer before we get started.
Today's episode deals with topics of depression and suicide, so
please use discretion today and if this is a subject
matter you're not fully comfortable with, we recommend you maybe
give today's episode a skip. Lastly, if you or someone
you know is struggling with depression or suicidal ideations, please
(00:22):
call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at seven three, eight
to five. Thanks for listening. You're listening to Facing Evil,
a production of I Heart Radio and Tenderfoot TV. The
views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those
(00:42):
of the individuals participating in the show and do not
represent those of I Heart Radio or Tenderfoot TV. This
podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable for everyone.
Listener Discretion is advised. Hi, everyone, welcome back to Face
Evil from Tenderfoot TV and I Heart Radio. We are
(01:03):
your host. I'm Evett Gentile and I'm her baby sister
Rosha Peccarero, and with us, as always, is our amazing
producer Trevor Young. How do how do you? What's V?
I love it? When that texting comes out Hound, how
does and y'alls, I love it? Well, Trevor and Evett.
(01:24):
I really wanted to reach out to the two of
you today and to our listeners because, you know, Event
and I have been fortunate to do a lot of
press over the last few weeks. And one particular person
asked us a question that I think is so important
for the three of us and for our listeners, and
she said, what do you do for self care when
(01:46):
you're not doing facing evil, when you're not talking about
these crimes and these these horrible things that are happening.
So like for me, I loved that question because it
made me kind of stop and I was like, ah,
like a couple of things. One, I'm very thankful to
me in therapy, you know, because mental health is health.
(02:09):
And my therapist she actually ended up sadly. She she
passed away not not too long ago, unexpectedly. And I
have a new one and I had already started seeing her.
But that therapist, her name was Karen, and she told me,
every day, you know, set a reminder on your phone
and it literally says RuSHA practice mindfulness for the day.
(02:31):
And she's like, I don't care if you say one
good word to yourself or if you go and take
a hot bath because she knew I loved hot baths,
and so that's my one thing that I can do
for myself every day. But I want to know. I
want to know, Yvette, what do you do for self care?
And then I want to know what you do, Trevor. Gosh,
there's so many things that I do, But for me,
it's really about getting outside and taking in the fresh air,
(02:56):
you know, putting on my running shoes. You know, that's
really therapy for me, and just I don't have to
type in a password, you know, to go to my
yoga to the gym. It's just putting on those shoes
and and getting outside and just letting whatever is bothering
me or you know, exciting me, just let it all
(03:17):
resonate and take off running. That is kind of my
my go to right now. As well as you know,
I have a little ritual that I do every morning
where I like incense, um to bring on the new
day and to be divinely blessed and protected, you know,
as our mother would always say. So those are a
(03:37):
few of the things that I do. Chevor, what about you?
It's interesting and I think it's probably a very good
question for this episode. Um for me. I think I
learned a long time ago that the best thing I
can do for myself is have a healthy and regular
inner dialogue that's constantly running. So I'm constantly talking to myself,
you know. I think that's one of the great things
(03:58):
about something like therapy is you're just working through things
with somebody, right, Like you're kind of playing chess with somebody,
but like chess for your brain. And so what I've
always sought to do is kind of be playing chess
with myself all the time, you know. So if I'm
feeling something um, or if i'm you know, just have
something on my mind, I just always talk to myself.
(04:19):
I'm like, so, why am I feeling this way? You know,
maybe it's because you were you know this or that,
or you had gone through this the day before, and
I'm like, that's interesting, and that makes me think back
to when I had this experience, you know. So I'm
just always kind of working through things in my head. Um.
It's not always possible, especially if you're really tired or
stressed out, so you know when you can, and I
(04:41):
always try and set situations up for that sort of thing.
So I do I do that best probably like on drives, walks,
you know, bus rides, whatever it is, and that kind
of keeps me objective, keeps me aware of where I'm
at and how I'm feeling, and um kind of helps
me process us a lot. So and I think all
(05:01):
of that self care is really amazing to think about
and talk about. And like you said, Trevor, I think
it's great for today's case, and I would be honored
if you could actually take us through it. My son
was my best friend through the height of his depression.
That was by a side trying to build the spirits
into effect his behavior positively. She just thought she was
(05:24):
an acquaintance of Conrad's nothing more. At the heart of
this closely watched case, her text messages and phone calls
encouraging him to commit suicide, and the debate over whether
words can kill. Many questioning whether Michelle Carter should have
ever been charged in the death of her boyfriend, given
that no other internet case has resulted in a homicide conviction,
(05:44):
and now big questions about that light sentence she got
that seemed as stunned the victims family. Conrad Roy was
an eighteen year old from Massachusetts who died by suicide
in He had just graduated from high school and was
getting ready to attend to college. But Conrad had struggled
(06:04):
with depression and suicidal ideations for years, having attempted suicide
two years earlier. And then on July, Conrad was found
in his truck dead of carbon monoxide asphyxiation in an
apparent suicide. The family soon learned that leading up to
his death, Conrad had been texting with a girl named
(06:26):
Michelle Carter. When police searched his phone, they discovered hundreds
of text messages from Michelle urging Conrad to take his
own life. The following year, Carter was indicted for manslaughter.
The case and the trial became highly publicized as one
of the first cases to ask was someone criminally responsible
(06:48):
for encouraging someone else to kill themselves? And since then
there have been numerous documentaries and even a fictionalized television
show about the case and so what really led to
Conrad Roy's death? To what degree was Michelle Carter responsible?
And what does this case tell us about the mental
health needs of youth in the age of technology and
(07:10):
social media. You know, Trevor, I remember when this happened,
and to be honest I looked at it from two
different perspectives. One, my daughter was very young at the
time that this happened, and you know, we didn't have
social media when you've got and were kids, and I
(07:32):
think you did have it a little bit, Trevor. But
I think what was so shocking to me is like,
could his girlfriend. Could Conrad Roy's girlfriend have actually caused this?
Was she the reason he finally decided to do it?
And I do want to be a little sensitive to
(07:53):
you know, people who have had, you know, suicidal ideations
or thoughts of suicide. I am not one of those people,
no matter how bad it's gotten for me. I've just
never been in that dark of a place, thankfully. But
I asked my wife before doing this episode if I
could share a little bit of her journey because when
this happened, of course, I always think about her, right
(08:14):
and I know her history, and she's been very open
about dealing with depression every day, and she herself has
attempted suicide a couple of times in her lifetime before
we met, and you know, before I met her, I
think I always thought that someone always has a choice, right,
like they can always choose to not do it, but
(08:37):
sometimes maybe they just don't have that choice. Maybe it
is medical, maybe it is chemical, And like mental health
is so so, so so important. It is, and it's
it's so important, and it's so different for everybody. And
I think that's what we're realizing, especially you know, with
(08:58):
this story that we're about to tell. You know, I
can't even imagine, you know, how Conrad's family felt when,
you know, they discovered these thousands and thousands of texts
from this girl that they don't even know, Like, how
could this and why did this happen? Yeah, and that's
(09:19):
something we're going to obviously talk about today, but I
will just say this is really the time period in
someone's life that is the most sensitive. Probably right, that's
not true for everybody, but like being a teenager, being
an adolescence is very emotionally difficult. And the fact is
Conrad Roy was indeed part of a bigger, the regrettable trend.
(09:44):
And the data does actually show that teenage boys are
more likely to die by suicide than girls, which is
something to consider that maybe not everybody knows. Yeah, that's
it's so true. And and there's a another trend too
that I learned about while researching for this episode, and
(10:05):
rates of teen suicide and mental illness have actually increased
in recent decades, and one report showed that the suicide
death rate among people between the ages of ten and
twenty four increased fifty six percent between the years two
thousand seven. And I believe that that is an alarming,
(10:27):
alarming number. I mean, why do we think this is happening?
And especially two teens? What do you guys think? I mean,
it's there are like a lot of things that experts
have looked at, UM, and there's like plenty to pick from,
especially in today's day and age. Right, So one big
factor that we can look at is economic stress. If
(10:47):
you remember UM two thousand eight, which is right at
the start of those numbers, As you mentioned Russia, there
was a huge recession that had a massive impact on
a lot of families, especially kids, including my own. And
not only that, but there's the fact that social media
started popping up around that time, and I do think
social media has had a huge negative impact on the
(11:11):
emotional development of a lot of kids, a lot of teens.
You know, Um, I had my Space and middle school, yeah,
and then I think like Facebook was just starting to
be a thing when I graduated high school. Nowadays it
feels like everybody has their own phone, Like all the
(11:33):
teenagers have TikTok. And I know for a fact that
you know, the sort of imagery and the sort of um,
you know, expectations for what your life should be like
through something like TikTok is like not super healthy. I
think it's pretty toxic. So all this to say, I
think social media and phones not healthy for kids, and
I think the numbers reflect that. Agreed. You know, I
(11:57):
have As we know, I have a love hate relationship
with with social media. Rush is the one who introduced
me to my Space, and I think Mom is the
one to introduced me to Facebook. Like I had no clue,
you know, but I I agree with you, and I
think this is something that we can see in the
story of Conrad Roy, you know, dealing with this social media.
(12:20):
So Trevor, with that being said, can you please shed
light on Conrad Roy's story. Yeah. So, Conrad was born
on September twelve in Mattapoisett, Massachusetts. To all you New Englanders,
I'm sorry if I butchered that. Conrad worked with his
family's marine salvaging business and after high school he got
(12:43):
his own captain's license from the Northeast Maritime Institute, which
is very impressive. He was super intelligent, had a super
high GP in high school. Um. But Conrad did deal
with a ton of issues growing up, of course, not
limited to depression and anxiety. He allegedly also dealt with
abuse from his father and grandfather, and then when his
(13:06):
parents divorced in two thousand twelve, Conrad did attempt suicide. Luckily,
on that occasion he was unsuccessful. I can totally relate
to this because divorce. When you talk about divorce, and
I remember when you know, my parents divorced, how devastating
that can be on kids, you know, having to go
through a messy divorce, you know, with their parents, and
(13:28):
they're seeing all of that. So I'm sure you know,
Conrad had a lot more going on than even his
parents knew about at that time because they were probably
going through you know, their own things obviously. Um, but
this is about the time that Conrad actually met Michelle,
and this is back in two thousand and twelve. Yeah,
(13:48):
it's interesting how this kind of lines up. But both
Conrad's family and Michelle Carter's family happened to be in
vacation in Florida at the same time in two thousand twelve.
Other from Massachusetts though, so the two of them met,
their families, kind of found each other, and they started
texting and messaging each other. Conrad and Michelle. Did I
(14:09):
know Michelle also dealt with mental health struggles like just
like Conrad, it did, so of course, I'm sure they
had a lot in common. And she also was on
Selexa for anxiety and depression, so you know, again, they
probably cemented a bond during this time, talking about all
(14:30):
of the things that both of them are going through,
and I think all the things that teenagers talk about, right,
and they were bonding over something that they both were
openly going through. And it's during this time that, of course,
they proclaimed their love for one another. You know, I
remember we had beepers back in the day, you know,
like I think my yeah, my high school sweetheart would
(14:54):
text me no I'm seeing I'm even saying text would
beep me the numbers one for three, which meant I
love you, you know, So I'm like, oh, you know
they said one for three that means they loved me.
So I think that was kind of what Michelle and
Conrad we're going through at the time. And I think
they only met in person a handful of times, right,
(15:16):
I think like five times they only met I mean
somehow though they only lived about an hour away from
each other there in Massachusetts, and sometimes they'd like make
plans to meet up, but it never seemed to really
work out. I guess when you are maybe a little
far away, it's hard. But they claimed to have had
a really strong connection over technology over phones. Um. But yeah,
(15:39):
I mean there was basically little to know face to
face interaction between these two. Most of it was online,
and that's where the spark seemed to be. UM. Michelle herself,
I know you talked a little bit about her mental
health struggles, but you know, at least in school, she
was very liked and very popular. Her classmates voted her
most likely to brighten your day, and maybe that sort
(16:01):
of extroverted personality is what attracted Conrad. Um. She also,
as you alluded to, had been dealing with mental health
problems since I think she was like eight or nine.
So I read that she had had an eating disorder
when she was very young and had been put on
various forms of medication like before middle school, which is wild,
(16:26):
very very very young age. So I mean, with everything
you just said, it just makes sense that, of course
they probably mostly talked about, you know, stuff like this,
like suicide. Right, And she allegedly actually says that at
one time she talked him down. I should say a
(16:47):
number of times she talked him down from his suicide attempts.
And this is over the course of you know, two
years or so, right, Yeah, and in fact, a month
before he actually did take his own life. She writes
to him, and I'm going to be quoting a lot
of different texts over the course of this episode, but
here's one. She said, quote you need professional help like me.
(17:11):
End quote. But then that changes. On July twelve, two fourteen,
the day before he was found dead, she sent this
really chilling message at four nineteen in the morning. She writes, quote,
you can't think about it. You just have to do it.
You said you were going to do it, Like, I
don't get why you aren't. End quote, and he writes back,
(17:35):
quote I don't get it either. I don't know. End quote.
Oh God, it just breaks my heart. I would be like,
don't do it, right, I mean, that's The weird part, right,
That's what makes this case weird, is that she seems
to be really egging him on, well, like supportive at first,
but like there's this weird turn that happens. That's where
she's like, all of a sudden, like just just do it, right,
just just get it over with, Like she's kind of
(17:57):
like frustrated that he's not actually going through with it. Yeah,
like going through with it. And that's like the kind
of like nugget of of evil that people seem to
kind of latch onto. When we talk about this case,
it's like what would drive someone to do that thing?
Or and why was there a turn? Right? Why did
she flip? Right? Yeah, because he was slip. He was
(18:18):
clearly hesitating. He was not fully sure about this thing.
But it's it's clear that she's at least like pushing
on him by this point. And apparently he's sort of
anxiously texting all day and his family does notice this,
and his sister Camden actually told reporters that at the
time she didn't know who he was texting with, but
(18:39):
in fact, he was texting with Michelle Carter and the
two were going back and forth about his plans to
kill himself later that day, and he wrote to her
that he was worried about leaving his family behind. He
really loved his family, and he wrote, quote like I
want them to know that I love them end quote.
Michelle's response was quote, they know. That's one thing. They
(19:03):
definitely know. End quote. And earlier she texted, quote, everyone
will be sad for a while, but they will get
over it and move on. End quote. Gosh, like it's
so sad. And then around six o'clock that evening, Conrad
drove off in his truck, saying he was going to
see a friend and that was the last time his
(19:25):
family would ever see him alive. We do need to
take a quick break, but we'll keep moving with the
story when we come back. So it wasn't like Conrad
Roy to disappear for very long. He'd driven off in
his truck late the afternoon of July twelve, and his
(19:45):
family had no clue where he was. His mother, of course,
became concerned and texted him in the middle of the night,
but received no response. Still, she was assuming that everything
was okay. She knew about his struggles with depression, and
she truly believed that he would overcome it. Then something
(20:07):
odd happened. Late that night, Conrad's sister, Camden, received the
text from Michelle Carter to Camden, Michelle was just this
random friend of Conrad's who lived somewhere else. So his
sister really had no idea the connection that these two had.
She didn't know that they were supposedly boyfriend and girlfriend.
(20:29):
She just knew that they had met right on vacation,
right yeah. And in talking about this to a reporter,
Camden said that she thought her brother and Michelle were
just friends. But in this message, Michelle tells Camden, quote,
we're boyfriend and girlfriend now end quote, and then she asks,
quote do you know where your brother is? End quote? Oh? This,
(20:52):
this right here is like My first thought is like
this is sick because she knows where her brother is,
and for her to say that that is disturbing. It
also makes me think of a sociopath. Do you know
what I mean? Like that it doesn't quiet add up.
(21:13):
It's also weird that she would make this declaration that
their boyfriend and girlfriend. Now. I mean, if you're assuming
that Conrad has taken his own life by this point, like,
why are you, I don't know, suggesting that you are
like together and dating. It's just she she wants to
feel seen and feel important in this horrific time. I
think it's like she's in control of the situation somehow. Anyhow,
(21:38):
so the next day the family does go searching for Conrad,
and at one point his mother gets this sort of
what she describes as a rush through her body, and
she kind of senses spiritually that her son is gone. Uh.
And it turns out that he is, and they find
him in his truck in a remote corner of a
(21:59):
kmart parking a lot. So he had turned on a
gas powered water pump in his truck and let the
cabin fill up with carbon monoxide and he died of asphyxiation. Yeah.
And meanwhile, Michelle Carter's weird behavior intensifies. She ends up
(22:23):
showing up at the funeral a few days later and
apparently makes a little bit of a scene. Yeah. A
friend of Conrad says, Michelle seemed to be acting out
the role of a grieving widow. It's almost like like
she was obsessed with Glee and the characters on Glee.
It likes it seems like a performance, right. But the
(22:47):
family then discovers She's been also organizing this charity event
in Conrad Roy's name, and the family has no idea. Yeah,
and Michelle sense herself as this anti suicide advocate, and
she did set up this memorial It was actually a
memorial softball game in his memory. And all of this
(23:09):
just strikes the family as odd. One. They didn't even
know who she was. And I watched a documentary all
about it. She set up in her hometown rather than
in Conrad's. Yeah, it's it's weird. I wonder like how
she sees herself. That's like the one thing I can
never really get a good grasp on. The more I
read about this and you know, watch videos. Does she
(23:31):
actually see herself as an anti suicide advocate? Does she
actually think that she's like a positive force making a
difference in the field of mental health or is this
all like this really kind of like messed up, you know,
power trip facade thing. And I really don't know, but
you know, it's either one she's like an evil person
(23:53):
or two she's like delusional. Those are like the only
two options I can see here. You know, I think
it's both. Trevor, I would have to say, I mean,
just in my opinion, you know, like, yes, she is delusional,
and at the same time, what she's doing is evil.
I would like to jump in as a devil's advocate
(24:14):
for a moment, only because I know what I was
like at seventeen, you know what I mean. Like, granted
I I was never in that position, but her brain
wasn't even fully developed yet, and she herself had mental
health issues. That's the only thing I can you know
what I mean, Like she was seventeen, She was seventeen,
doesn't make it okay. Now, was she an anti suicide
(24:36):
advocate when she talked him into killing himself, you know,
just a few days prior. No, Yeah, that's a good point.
I do think we forget that, Like, yeah, you're right,
like her brains not developed, she's a miner. Yeah, it's
still heartbreaking, and I have to say to you know,
like even you know her doing all this, Like for me,
I would be like, who is this girl? Where did
she come from? But I'm sure you know at the time,
(24:58):
right her family they were in shock, you know, and
grieving the loss of their son. So either thinking, oh,
you know, I know the mother is thinking, well, at
least he had this girlfriend who loved and adored him,
so she thought, even though they didn't know about her
in the moment when he was alive. Yeah yeah, so
(25:21):
I mean let's talk about the investigation then. So it's
ruled a suicide and the police to decide to look
into it a little more um and they find his phone.
They're able to get into it, and that is where
they discover all of these messages from Michelle Carter. So
he had erased all other text threads on his phone
(25:42):
except for the ones with Michelle, So it was almost
like a focal point when they checked his phone. It
was like all these messages were there and that was
the only thing on his phone. And in the messages,
what they find, without a doubt, is very damning. I
know we read a few of them, but here are
some more we can go into. I mean, no, no kidding,
(26:03):
I mean, let's get into it. In one exchange, he
asked her how was your day? And she responds, when
are you going to do it? My day was okay,
how was yours? I mean, how bizarre is that into me?
That's like that's just cruel. Yeah, yeah, it's so gross
and creepy. Yeah, And it goes on and they talk
(26:24):
about their day, and then she says again, when are
you gonna do it? Stop ignoring the question what the hell?
And there's yet another exchange. This is after he's been
depressed for quite some time. She's advocating for suicide as
his best option and writes, quote it's painless and quick
(26:49):
end quote. And this is between all of these professions
of love for him. So it's like kind of manic, right,
like going back and forth. And one thing that's incredibly
chilling is that she even brings her friends into this.
So just over a week after Conrad dies, she texted
a friend telling her she's worried that she'd be implicated
(27:10):
in his death. And she does this sort of with
of course, all the drama of a teenager, and she
writes to her friend Sam, quote Sam, they read my
messages with him, I'm done. His family will hate me
and I can go to jail. End quote. Later she
tells this friend Sam that she was there when Conrad
(27:32):
Roy actually took his last breath. So obviously, I mean,
she is clearly taking pleasure in this, like in all
of it, and again like she she knows, she knows
what she did. Yeah, I mean I think she probably
at least has some sort of like twisted logic in
her head that you know, this was like the right
thing to do somehow, like this was like a mercy
(27:54):
and that, like it's just that nobody else will understand,
but at least we know that we loved each other
and this was like the healthiest thing or something like that. Yeah,
it's it's almost as if it's like the whole thing
is very intoxicating. Like she's playing out on both sides
of it. You know, she acts like she loves him. Yeah,
she wants him to take his life right, right, And yeah,
(28:17):
it's very much a movie. And I can understand why
it was made into a mini series on Hulu, Like
I totally can see the dramatization of it. But again,
we have to remember right when we were teenagers, you
know how everything was so loaded with drama. Well, I
was never dramatic. I don't know what anyone's talking about.
(28:38):
But you know, many I know, just kidding, but no, many,
you know, especially you know teenage you know, more feminine kids,
like I think they definitely have a flair for their
dramatic and even when you're talking about death, when you're
talking about it. It It doesn't seem real, right, So maybe
Michelle didn't think he was actually ever going to do it.
(29:00):
She was just being super dramatic because we don't fully
understand I think when we're teenagers that anyone's going to die, right,
And that's that's kind of the sense of what I'm
getting here. I don't think she was a cold blooded,
heartless murderer. I just think she needed She was reaching
out for help as well. I think, yeah. I mean,
(29:21):
going back to my question earlier about like whether or
not she was just delusional or a bad person, I
mean the way the way you say that, you know,
leans towards the more delusional theory. You right, that you know,
in her own mind, maybe she really thought this was
like her own Romeo and Juliette's story in some kind
of dark, twisted way, and therefore it was justified. I
(29:44):
feel like she's just like doesn't have a grip on reality,
and I think maybe some of her other mental health
issues would back that up so absolutely. I mean in
the medications that she was on as well, right, exactly exactly,
And that's something they bring up a lot in the trials,
which get to so speaking of trials, though, Michelle Carter
is in fact indicted. So on February four they indict
(30:09):
her with involuntary manslaughter and she has arraigned the very
next day and charged as a youthful offender since she
was only seventeen at the time of Conrad's death. And
so this big trial is where a lot of crazy
things happen. So we're going to talk about that trial
in just a minute. We do have to take another
quick break, though, so we will be back after that.
(30:36):
At trial, the prosecution has an abundance of evidence against
Michelle Carter in the case of Conrad Roy's death, and
they have so much evidence, of course, in the form
of these thousands of texts. So first of all, she
helped him find his method. She actually wrote to him
and another quote here, hanging is painless and takes like
(31:00):
second if you do it right. End quote right. I mean,
we know though that that's not how he actually died. Um,
But five days before his suicide, she sent him a
news release from the US Consumer Product Safety Commission entitled
quote winter Warning. Portable generators hold top spot in CPSC
report on carbon monoxide deaths and incidents. So she sends
(31:23):
him this report, and then minutes before they've been texting
about ways to generate carbon monoxide, and then she tells
him in another text, quote google ways to make it
end quote. And then she sends him this news release
that I just mentioned, and he responds, quote portable generator.
That's it. End quote. So that's where he gets the idea.
(31:47):
And it's so crazy because they actually made a TV
show which is on Hulu and it's called The Girl
from Plainville, and this story it garnered so much attention
because in how often have we seen on television where
a teenage girl tells her boyfriend just kill yourself, Just
(32:08):
do it right? Yeah, I mean I think you know
it could be this sort of thing happens more often
than we know about. But it definitely felt like the
first public case of this sort which is why it
gets so much media attention, which I know we'll get
to in a second. But the only other thing this
case reminds me of is a very different type of
scenario but kind of goes back to this question of
(32:30):
whether or not seventeen year olds with mental health problems
should be held accountable. Is the DC sniper case. If
you remember, one of the Shooters was a seventeen year
old boy who was largely kind of opted into it
by an older man, and there was always this question of, like,
you know, should the seventeen year old be held accountable
for something that like maybe he was led into doing
(32:53):
an adult, manipulated, maybe brainwashed, even you know, it becomes
very gray because the more that you talked to him
his name was Malvo Lee malvo Um, you know, the
more you realize like he definitely had enough facilities to
like no right from wrong by seventeen. And I think
you can kind of apply that same logic to Michelle here,
(33:14):
which is like at seventeen, like say what you will
about some of her mental health problems, but you still
generally have an idea of like what is right and
what it's wrong. Um. And the fact that she was
texting her like, hey, they're gonna get me if they
read these texts, Like she knew this was wrong and
she was going to get in trouble for it. So
that's what they're all looking at right now in this trial.
(33:36):
The other points of the prosecution makes are that Michelle
spent weeks talking Conrad out of his doubts, you know,
all that your family will get over its stuff, you know.
She was trying to chip away at some of the
things that we're holding him back. Yeah, And I guess
we just go back again and again, like why would
she do this? Yeah? And I was watching a documentary
(33:58):
earlier today preparing for episode, and I saw the prosecution
arguing that she was desperate for friends and attention, and
days before Conrad's death, she sent text to the girls
that she supposedly wanted to get closer with, wanted to
be more popular around, pretending that Conrad was missing to
(34:20):
get their sympathy, like she kind of had a dry
run a few days before he actually took his life.
And in fact, prosecutors went so far as to say
that Conrad still being alive was actually a problem for
Michelle because of the lies she had spun a few
days earlier with her friends, So if he remained alive,
it would expose her as a liar, right, So I
(34:44):
mean that kind of censores it, um, But really that's
not even the darkest part of it. So at about
six thirty on the night of his death, they end
up talking for forty five minutes or so over the phone. So,
according to one article, quote. During that conversation, and as
the cab of the truck filled with gas fumes, Roy
decided to get out. Carter later told a friend, and
(35:07):
in a message she probably didn't expect to ever become public,
she wrote, quote, I told him to get back in
the truck. Yeah, So he actually was like backing out
of this. He was ready to get out of that truck,
and right at the last moment, she told him to
(35:27):
follow through, get back in there, finish the job. So
so gross. It's like she put the nail in his coffin,
even though he's the one that put himself there, right
she did. I mean it sounds like she wanted him
to Yeah. And and meanwhile, you know she's already lying
to her friends and saying that she was afraid he'd
killed himself. Yeah. So so disturbing on so many levels,
(35:50):
because first of all, she knows where he's at. She
could have, you know, easily called his mom, called his sister, called,
but instead, like you said, she put the nail in
the coffin and told him to get back in the truck.
I mean a vet like you said, she's kind of
playing both sides of this, right, Like she's trying to
(36:10):
be the virtuous girlfriend, but then also trying to like
gain sympathy, knowing full well that this is like kind
of a sham situation that she's been in control of
the whole time. Well, let's talk about the defense in
this trial. So those defending Michelle Carter say that Conrad
(36:31):
Roy was planning to kill himself anyway, and point to
his past attempts. They say she didn't threaten or physically
assist him, that she just wanted to help him, I guess,
basically to escape the mental anguish that he was in.
They also say that she should not be charged as
an adult, and they frame all of this as a
matter of free speech, and this becomes a slippery slope
(36:53):
you get into when it comes to right to die issues,
which we probably should talk about at some point, maybe today.
But despite all of this, she is indeed convicted. She
has found guilty of involuntary manslaughter, and she's sentenced to
two and a half years made up of fifteen months
in jail in a period of supervised probation, which is
(37:13):
pretty short. So that means that she's out already today.
She was released in January, getting out three months early
for good behavior. Yeah, and it's actually kind of sad
when you think about it, because in her yearbook, Michelle
was voted quote most likely to brighten your day end quote. Yeah.
(37:33):
That's the ironing here, right, Yeah, that is the irony
when looking at this case, Like, I just have to
go back to words are very powerful, and those words
that she sent in that text, you know, telling Conrad
to get back in that car, to me, that is
(37:57):
an act of violence. She could have gotten him help,
She could have gotten him help. But the words that
she chose, we're so incredibly powerful. But he got back
in that car and now he's not here. Yeah, I
mean there's no doubt that, like, she's partially responsible for this, right,
It's just like the question is like to what degree?
(38:17):
And then also like what what is the right punishment
for the level of involvement that she had because there
hasn't really been anything like this before, right, there's not
much of a precedent. I don't know. And that's part
of this next maybe big last topic here, which is
that this case became huge. It was notorious. I mean
I remember seeing Michelle Carter's face everywhere. We've had documentaries,
(38:40):
we've had the fictional show all about Michelle Carter on Hulu.
I mean, I don't know, what do you guys think, Like,
why are people so into this case? Other than that,
you know, I guess we've never seen anything like this before.
It's just fascinating because you you look at her, like
she's a beautiful girl, like you would think everything is
fine in her life, so, you know, right, And I
(39:02):
think part of that is she's like good looking, seemingly
you know, pretty, she's white, she's from the suburbs, and
she was caught doing and seeing these horrific and horrible things.
And I think that fascinated people in a way. I mean,
people love salacious true crime, and this is as salacious
(39:24):
as you can get. It's messed up in so many ways.
There's a bit of cognitive dissonance there, I guess, And
I guess I've always not like necessarily how the coverage
of the story focused on Michelle, you know, um and
not Conrad. Yeah, exactly, you know, I guess she is
like the monster of the story, right, Like when we
hear about Jeffrey Dahmer, we hear about Dahmer. We don't
(39:46):
hear about the people he killed. Usually you know, people
like to focus on the person, and you know, coming
from the journalism world, they you know, red flag that
all the time, like don't talk about the shooter when
there's a school shooting, right, you know, don't talk about
the kill or don't give them attention, don't give them
a platform. You don't want to inspire other people, you know,
only talk about the victims. And the truth is, like,
(40:07):
this isn't about Michelle. You know, we're talking about a
bigger problem here where youth today are dealing with an
epidemic of depression, you know, as we said, bolstered by
social media and phones and all that stuff. So that's
what we should be talking about. Yeah, whichever, that's right.
And those statistics you mentioned at the top, I mean
there's been a huge increase in recent years, which is
(40:28):
so sad. Yeah, I mean two thousand seven to was
that window that we saw it, like a fifty plus
percent jump, um, you know, and I think we definitely
we need to curb that somehow. You know, we need
to realize that social media is probably making things worse
if we don't regulate it. And that's what I was
saying at the top. You know, we need to I
(40:48):
think try harder now more than ever to provide mental
health resources and like really think about the effects of
kind of isolated phone time. Yeah, and words are powerful, right,
And I think it's all about having conversations. Right. I'm
a parent myself. Our little girl is ten, and she
(41:11):
has very fiercely protective moms and auntie's and uncles taking
care of her. But it's about having conversations. So I
want to encourage all of the parents or you know,
just guardians out there. You don't even have to be
a parent. You can be an uncle and auntie, a cousin,
a friend, you know, check on your kids and you know,
(41:34):
look at the messages and the things that they're consuming.
Like I get a report every week of what Leilani
is watching on YouTube. But we have that open dialogue
and conversation. So I hope that other caregivers out there
can do that with you know, the young people in
their lives as well. But I know that we can't
control that. We can't wrap our kids and our youth
(41:56):
in a bubble, you know. I think I remember Conrad
Roy's mom saying, like I wish I had, you know,
tied them, you know, to the radiator of the day before, like,
you can't live your life like that. So resources, like
we have said, are very very important, and I would
love for you all to check out the Youth Mental
Health Project. They have a comprehensive list of issue specific
(42:19):
resources everything from depression to bipolar disorder to schizophrenia, and
we will of course post more resources on our website.
Our final message of hope and healing this week is
dedicated to Conrad Roy and other people who find themselves
(42:42):
in a deep struggle with depression. Severe depression can feel
like absolute despair and it can seem like there's no
way out. Depression is an illness and it's very real.
We want to share with those who are going through
depression and those who know people struggling with it, that
it can get better. Yes, and many people can get
(43:05):
treatment for depression and they are glad that they took
the steps that they needed in order to start feeling better.
And it starts by asking for help. Maybe Conrad Roy
was never able to fully take those steps. Today we
honor him, his family and everyone out there who's ever
struggled with depression in their own family. You are not alone.
(43:31):
Onward and upward imam, Well, that's our show for today,
and as we said at the beginning of the episode,
if you or someone you know is struggling with thoughts
of suicide, please call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at
(43:54):
seven three, eight to five five. We would love to
hear what you thought about today, a discussion and if
there's a case you'd like for us to cover. Find
us on social media at Facing Evil Pod or email
us at Facing Evil Pod at tenderfoot dot tv until
next time. Aloha. Facing Evil is a production of I
(44:25):
Heart Radio and Tenderfoot TV. The show is hosted by
Russia Peccarero and a Vetch and til Matt Frederick and
Alex Williams are executive producers on behalf of I Heart Radio,
with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk. Donald Albright and
Payne Lindsay our executive producers on behalf of Tenderfoot TV,
alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Claudia Dafrico. Original
(44:51):
music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on social
media or email us at Facing Evil Pod at Tenderfoot
dot tv. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio or
Tenderfoot TV, Visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.