August 4, 2022 • 38 mins
Rasha and Yvette honor Marsha P. Johnson, a transgender activist who was mysteriously murdered and found floating in the Hudson River in July of 1992.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey everyone, Trevor here. Just want to hit y'all with
a quick disclaimer before we start today's episode. This week,
we'll be talking about a lot of issues relating to
the gay and trans communities, both now and as far
back as the nineteen sixties. Of course, terminology today is
a lot different from terminology back then. In fact, it's
a constantly evolving thing, so it can be tricky getting
(00:23):
it right sometimes. We're going to do our best today
to be as respectful as possible and use proper terms
and pronouns as we understand them. That said, we're human
and we might sometimes get it wrong or not all
the way correct. So if you notice something, please just
reach out to us and let us know. We're constantly
learning and we always want to do the right thing.
(00:44):
We're more than happy to take feedback and correct something
if we messed it up, so please hit us up
on social media. We're at Facing Evil pod. You're listening
to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV.
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely
(01:04):
those of the individuals participating in the show and do
not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV. This podcast
contains subject matter which may not be suitable for everyone.
Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Hello everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil from Tenderfoot TV
and iHeartRadio. We are your hosts. I'm Roschia Piccarero.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
And I am Eve Gentilea, and we are here as
always with our amazing producer Trevor Young.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
Hey, a man of many words. It's Trevor. I love it.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
So, guys, I had a crazy dream last night. Have
you ever dreamt that you were in a tidal wave
and you feel this, like you feel the sensation of
the wave like rolling about to roll over your head.
Speaker 4 (01:53):
So many times right, Like.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
It's I mean, it's crazy. So I was wondering, does
anybody know, like and you dream about stuff like that,
what it really means.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
I remember mom saying, because I've dreamt about tsunamis or
tidal waves like my whole life. And I remember her
when she was alive, she'd always say that just means
good change is coming, you know. Of course she was
polly positive, so she'd always say it was good change.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Any dreams I've ever had with like physical sensations is
usually more reflective of like some sort of like paranoia
I'm dealing with, you know, internally, you know, whether that's
about like some sort of natural disaster or something else
going on that manifests itself in a like physical movement,
whether it's in water or the earth shaking or whatever
it is.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
But oh, my god, Trevor, that's so deep because you
heard what I just said, right, I was dreaming about
a tsunami, and then there was an earthquake.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
Which causes a tsunami in real life.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Anyway, Yeah, alrighty well, please, Trevor, will you take us
through today's case.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
The police department found that Johnson, whose body was floating
in the Hudson River, committed suicide, but those closest to
her doubt that's the story.
Speaker 5 (03:06):
Her death twenty five years ago still remains a mystery.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Marcia Johnson said, I got my civil rights and then
threw a shot glass into a mirror, and that started
the riots.
Speaker 5 (03:17):
The idea that she was allowed to die without the
proper response from authorities to investigate what happened to her.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Marcia P. Johnson was a transgender activist and cultural icon
who lived in New York from the sixties through the
early nineties. She was a trailblazer for gay and trans rights,
and fought constantly to protect herself and those in her community.
The story of Marcia's death is a sad one and
is largely reflective of the world in which she struggled
(03:46):
to obtain rights. After the New York Gay Pride Parade
in nineteen ninety two, Marcia disappeared. No one is really
sure what happened to her, but her body was found
floating in the Hudson River just a few days later.
Marcia's case is unsolved to this day. It's unclear who
killed her or how she died, but the most common
(04:07):
theory is that transphobic gang members attacked her, killed her,
and then dumped her body. Marcia's death sent shockwaves through
the queer community. Not only was Marcia a well known figure,
almost like a mother to some, but it was upsetting
to many that the police did virtually nothing to investigate
her murder or disappearance. And so, what actually happened to Marcia?
(04:31):
Why was law enforcement so disinterested in finding out? And
how is her legacy one of both strife and perseverance
reflective of the ongoing struggles for queer acceptance.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
So let me just say as an openly gay woman.
I cannot begin to tell you how much Marcia means
to me personally. She was a trailblazer, an absolute icon,
and a in my humble opinion, and I truly believe
that without Marcia, we wouldn't have a fraction of the
(05:07):
amount of acceptance and love for queer people that we
actually have today.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
I agree. I think Marcia is one of the crowning
figures in the queer and especially the trans community. She
was really one of the first people to do it.
So I'm really happy we're doing this today.
Speaker 4 (05:23):
Frankly, I'm so proud.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
Yeah, And I have to say, you know, thank you
to my sister RuSHA for introducing me to miss Marsha P. Johnson,
because I would not have known about her otherwise. And
watching the Netflix special right was so inspiring, And I
believe that she's a part of all of our history,
(05:46):
not just the transgender community. But you know, I think
about how challenging it had to have been for Marcia,
especially in the nineteen sixties. I mean, first of all,
not just being queer, but being a person of color.
Just think about how much she actually had to overcome
(06:07):
and how much crap yep, that she probably had to
deal with like on the daily, on the.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
Daily exactly, and she wasn't the only one.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
You know. One huge reason that we want to talk
about Marcia today is that, sadly, her case, it's a
common story for many trans people across the world. In fact,
according to the Human Rights Campaign, of one hundred and
fifty seven reported cases of fatal violence against transgender women
(06:38):
since the year twenty thirteen, seventy eight percent of them
were transgender women of color.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
So let's also keep in mind that much of what's
going on here is wrapped up in sex work. It
was very common for transgender women, especially in New York
at that time, to in fact be sex workers. So
in that same report from the Human Rights Campaign, I
found that one in three victims of anti transgender fatal
violence since twenty thirteen reportedly engaged in some form of
(07:07):
sex work. So this is also a huge part of
what's going on here. It's a huge part of a
bigger problem we're talking about, and it's a big part
of Marcia's story.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
That's so true.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
I mean, sadly, I think Marcia had a lot, you know,
working against her. But because this is what we do
on basing evil. We need to see the light in
the darkness. We're hoping that Marcia's story can raise awareness
of the trend in violence against gay and trans people
of color. And we also we want to elevate the
(07:38):
story of Marsha herself and give her her flowers. She
never got her flowers, I believe, when she was actually
on this earth, So I just want to shower her
with all the flowers that we possibly can.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
I love that Marsha's been getting more attention in recent years,
and that's great to see. But I think you're right.
I think for decades past, a lot of people didn't
know about Marcia.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
So I think, yeah, yes, finally time for a whole
new generation to know about her.
Speaker 5 (08:03):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
And before we get into it and get into the
nitty gritty, I want to do a quick disclaimer about
terminology and pronouns. So during most of Marsha's life, she
presented as a woman. But in today's world, I think
that Marcia would have referred to herself as a transgender
woman or maybe even non binary or gender fluid. But
(08:26):
at the time, you know, those those terms weren't exactly
out there. I think she referred to herself as a transvestite, which,
of course you know we wouldn't use that word. So
although Marshall was assigned mail at birth, we will respectfully
refer to Marsha with she her pronouns at all times
throughout this podcast. And I truly believe that pronouns are
(08:50):
a way of validating one's identity in the LGBTQ community
and with allies. So my pronouns, with that all being said,
my pronouns are she, her, and I identify as a
lesbian or a gay woman. So I think it's important
to share with our audience. Trevor and Yvette, what are
your pronouns and how do you identify?
Speaker 3 (09:12):
My pronouns are she her? And I identify as a
straight female.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
And my pronouns are he him, and I identify as
a pan sexual male.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Thank you for that. I think it's important to share
that with the audience. You know, like, pronouns are definitely important.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
All righty Well, let's dive in. Trevor, can you tell
us about Marsha's background?
Speaker 1 (09:38):
I sure can so. On August twenty fourth of nineteen
forty five, Marcia was born as Malcolm Michaels junior in Elizabeth,
New Jersey. Marcia was part of a big New Yorker family.
One interesting thing is that her assigned middle name did
not actually start with ape, as in Marsha P. Johnson, Russia.
(09:58):
I know you love this story, so I thought i'd
let you tell us about why.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Well, I can't say Marsha's name without even saying the pee,
you know, because you know I read that later on
in life. You know, Marcia would always say that the
pee in Marsha P. Johnson stands for pay it no mind.
She wanted people to pay it no mind about her gender,
pay it no mind about her sexuality, all the things.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
And I just I love that so much.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
And of course Marsha's a signed surname, you know, with
Michael's so Johnson. Her last name was made up too,
And I heard that she picked that because she always
frequented the Howard Johnson's on Sixth Street in Manhattan. So
she just created her gorgeous, amazing self.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Yeah, And so Marcia would also say that she enjoyed
wearing dresses as early as age five growing up, but predictably,
she kind of got bullied in harrassed by other boys
in her neighborhood, and so this kind of turned her
off from wearing dresses and she didn't really do it
for the rest of her childhood. But bullying wasn't really
even the worst of it. According to Marcia, she was
(11:05):
also sexually assaulted by a thirteen year old boy when
she was a child, and this led her to refrain
from or engage in any sexual activity until she was seventeen.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
God, I can't even imagine, Like that's already like such
a rough childhood. And I also know that Marcia struggled
at home, and Marcia said that her mom often dismissed homosexuality.
But I read this weird quote where her mom supposedly
pressured Marcia into marrying a billionaire. I mean, isn't that
(11:39):
a weird thing to say? I mean, it just seems
like in the same breath, like.
Speaker 4 (11:44):
She knew Yeah, Like I know, right, Like did her
mom know she was gay?
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Like you wouldn't say that to a little boy, right,
like you should marry a billionaire.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
No, that's just so weird to me.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
But Marcia, you know, after high school, she ended up
moving to New York City in nineteen sixty three, and
apparently she only had fifteen dollars in her pocket and
one change of clothes with her at the time.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Yep, and Marcia eventually settled in Greenwich Village. She kind
of got by by waiting tables and also starting to
engage in sex work, supposedly near that Howard Johnson's on
six that you mentioned Rasha where she got her name.
But about the sex work, Marcia would say that being
a part of that community led to her coming out
and being her authentic self, quoting her here, my life
(12:34):
has been built around sex and gay liberation, being in drag,
queen and sex work. And so it was around this
time that Marcia also started appearing in drag publicly. According
to some photos we have and those who knew her,
her style was not really like the elevated drag that
you might see like on RuPaul's Drag Race or our
favorite very club stuff like that. Yeah we love RuPaul's Dragon, yes. Yeah.
(12:58):
And so obviously Marcia couldn't really forward all the big
fancy clothes you might see on that runway or you know,
anything like that, So she just kind of wore what
she could find for cheap, you know, anything she could
grab off her rack for five bucks. Or less or
whatever it was.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
But I will say she never looked cheap like she
I've seen amazing photos of her, Like she wasn't the
best at doing her makeup or you know, she didn't
always have the right wig.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
But she was tall and slim and beautiful, and she
had you know.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Long floyd dresses and robes, and she always, like any
good queen, always had shiny heels on. And when I
think of Marcia, I think of her Hawaiian haku lay,
her flower lay that she always wore on top of
her head.
Speaker 4 (13:43):
It's like she.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Needed yes the crown, like she knew that she was
a vibrant, beautiful queen.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Yeah. I love that she made them by herself. I
remember like reading about how she would just like kind
of like find these materials laying around and just piece
them together. And you know, I think most photos you
see of Marcia, she's probably got that on. So it's
it's kind of iconic at this point. And I will
say I do also think she struck a really unique
balance between femininity and masculinity, and that's really hard to do. Absolutely,
(14:16):
it seems to I think have been a really kind
of like new and very revolutionary thing for her at
the time, Like you probably just didn't see like a
lot of people who look like Marsha walking down the
street in New York City in the sixties.
Speaker 4 (14:28):
No, she was ahead of her time totally.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
I think it was super bold of her to do that.
And you know, she's clearly had a lot of confidence.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
Right, I mean, she really walked the walk, and she
lived out loud and proud and like you said earlier,
you know, in the sixties, I'm sure you didn't see
anybody walking around like that, you know, and especially so confident.
She was completely, one hundred percent fully living in her
own skin.
Speaker 4 (14:56):
And she gave zero f's. Yeah, and I love that.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Yeah, I love that she was confident. I don't necessarily
think that she desired the spotlight, you know. I think
she was just kind of doing her own thing and
just wanted to be herself. The reality, though, is that
whether she wanted it or not, she shortly after this
period was about to get a lot of attention, and
that's because of something called Stonewall, which some of you
might know about. We need to take a quick break,
(15:24):
but when we come back, we will talk about Stonewall
and Marshall's involvement in that.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
So now we are going to talk about something that
is so important to me and every single member of
the LGBTQ plus community and of course our allies, and
that is the Stonewall Uprising, also known as the Stonewall Riots.
Speaker 4 (15:49):
This was the.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Start of what we now call Pride. So, in case
you haven't heard about Stonewall, Stonewall was a huge moment
and movement for our community, and Marcia was a big
part of it.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Yeah, there are a ton of documentaries and other ways
you can learn about Stonewall, and I encourage everybody to
do that, But here's kind of the overview. So the
Stonewall Inn was a pretty popular gay bar in Greenwich
Village at the time. In nineteen sixty nine, they actually
started letting trans women and drag queens into the bar
for the first time, and Marsha was one of the
(16:23):
kind of first of those to frequent the Stonewall. In
the Inn was a bit of a DIY space, so
it didn't really have an official liquor license or anything
like that, and so the NYPD kind of knew about
some of the illegal activity going on here and they
kept a very like watchful eye on it, and they
were really looking for any chance to like pounce on
(16:45):
the stonewall in and so they did, of course they did.
On June twenty eighth of nineteen sixty nine, they initiated
a full raid of the Stonewall in Keep in mind,
it was also illegal for men to dress as women
at the time, so police raids of gay bars were
like a pretty common thing. You'd hear about that a lot.
(17:05):
But usually they would arrest like all the drag queens
and send them to jail. But this night that didn't happen.
Something completely different happened.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Yes, this night was different. It was very different because
the Stonewall patrons they decided that tonight enough was enough,
and they decided to fight back. They were tired of
being bullied and harassed, you know, so it goes. They
all got rounded up and they started pushing back against
(17:35):
the cops and yelling and screaming and all kind of
things started happening. But there was one particular drag queen
that she got shoved into the car and then they
slammed her head against the door. And you can imagine,
you know, everybody is witnessing this, and they slam her
head down, and the crowd just goes ballistic. They start booing,
(17:59):
they start yelling things like gay power, and some people,
they say, started throwing beer bottles, coins, I mean, all
kinds of things at the police cars. So this just
reminds me of what John Lewis would always say. This
was good trouble, good trouble. They were fighting back, they
were fighting against everything, police, brutality, brutality, like all the
(18:24):
things not being accepted. Everything. So when I say enough
was enough, this is the moment it all went down.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Yes, And one of the pivotal moments of that first night,
there was a lesbian who got into a violent scuffle
with four different police officers and they were beating her
with their batons and they actually pinned her to the ground.
And many witnesses actually reported that it was a black,
(18:51):
butch lesbian named Stormy de Larvay. And so the story
goes Stormy looked up at the crowd of bystanders and shouted,
why won't you do something? And that is the moment
that all of those witnesses said that the crowd absolutely
exploded and it became a full blown mob.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
That's right, I mean, And it got so crazy that
they started destroying and turning over police cars, and fires
were erupting like everywhere. I mean, it was utter chaos,
and obviously the commotion were pissed well right right, I
mean the commotion attracted more people, and soon they say
that over five hundred people were a part of this riot,
(19:38):
and it escalated into two days of full on rioting,
followed by I guess smaller demonstrations taking place over the
next week, So it was like a revolution.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
So Marcia's kind of credited as having a big role
in this. However, her involvement is actually a little bit
more mysterious than maybe people are willing to admit. So
they're kind of all these conflicting accounts of where and
when Marcia was at Stonewall, and really none of them
are verified, so we don't actually know where Marcia was,
(20:10):
but we're gonna throw a couple things out there and
just keep in mind that, again, none of it's verified.
So one of the rumors was that when the first
group pushed back against the police, when everything was really
starting to kind of happen for the first time, Marcia
was part of that group that was like yelling and
screaming and all that stuff. Marcia later denied that, though,
saying she wasn't even there at that time.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
I know one of my favorite stories was, well, the
police were arresting folks, Marcia. This is the story, right.
Marcia apparently threw a bottle or something in a mirror
and she shouted, I want my civil rights. I could
hear her too.
Speaker 4 (20:45):
I can always like.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
I can't to see her say God damn it, I
want my civil rights. There's something like that. But I
guess no one knows the exact quote. And some people
say that she threw a shot glass, but on other
account they say she threw a brick. I mean, I
don't know, we don't we really don't know. None of
it is verified, right, So who's to say?
Speaker 4 (21:10):
So what's so funny about that?
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Like you both said, like Marcia has denied it, it's
almost like she was like it was like a game
of telephone, like, ooh, did you see Marsha P.
Speaker 4 (21:19):
Johnson there? Oh, Marcia was there. Marsha was there, you know.
But for sure there are.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Witnesses that saw her there on the second night of rioting,
and many say that Marcia actually dropped a bag of
bricks on a police car. Windshield completely shattering it. So
that's probably where that brick story comes from.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Yeah, that's a good one.
Speaker 4 (21:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Yeah. So obviously Stonewall was crazy, and whether or not
Marsha was involved to that extent is you know, TBD
or what have you. I want to believe she was there, Sam, Yeah,
I mean it's a it's a really interesting thing that
she was kind of given credit, especially if she didn't,
you know, actually do any or some of that stuff.
And the fact that she kind of denied a lot
(22:01):
of it too is interesting to me. Like, you know,
maybe she was kind of like forced into this role
of being the face of this movement and maybe she
didn't even really want to be. I don't really know,
but I find that interesting to think about.
Speaker 4 (22:12):
Could be her humility too, She was very humble.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
Right, And you think about it too. She took care
of so many of them, right, and I think she
was just she was a legend to them. So it's like, well,
the legend had time to be there the first night.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
You know.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
The reality though, is that Marcia's biggest role was more
like in the aftermath of the things that happened after Stonewall,
and so after the dust had sort of settled and
the fires had been put out in Greenwich Village, Marcia
joined what was called the Gay Liberation Front, a sort
of new activist group created to build on the momentum
of the Stone Wall uprising. So on June twenty eighth
(22:48):
of nineteen seventy, which was a whole year after Stonewall,
Marcia walked in what was then the first ever gay
Pride rally in New York City, also known then as
the Christopher Street Liberation And this is how we got pride,
as Russia was saying.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
And then something happened a few years later in nineteen
seventy three that actually makes me incredibly, incredibly sad and
mad at the same time. I truly believe that this
was a huge blow to the transgender community and to
transgender rights and awareness.
Speaker 4 (23:22):
So both Marcia and.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Another legend in the trans community, Sylvia Riveta, were actually
banned from participating in the gay rights rally in nineteen
seventy three. The organizers were made up of cisgender gay
men and women, and they decided they didn't want any
drag queens or anyone from the trans community there, which
(23:45):
is sickening.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
To me because we're all a community.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
You can't leave them out just because you think they
don't represent all of us.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
That just breaks my heart. I don't even know why
they did that.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
I think in their heads maybe they thought like it
was a faster path to getting gay rights. I don't know,
but they completely cut out drag queens and the trans community,
and that just makes me so mad. And I've seen footage.
I've seen Sylvia grab the mic and screaming at the
top of her lungs, like.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
And they're booing her fast. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Yeah. I mean, if you think about white middle class
America in the nineteen seventies, you know, their perception of
gay people was so distorted and so different from what
you know, we think of today. And so I think
probably the organizers of the rally and the march, we're thinking, like, hey,
we need these people to see gay people is non threatening,
as non deviance or whatever it was.
Speaker 4 (24:40):
You know, we need to white wash it, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
We need essentially, Yeah, like we need to white wash
it and make it like palatable to you know, straight
middle class families and stuff like that.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
It's a major contradiction.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Yeah, I mean, there was kind of like this promise
of like you'll get yours eventually, but we have to
do this first step if we ever want to get
there kind of thing. But yeah, it sucks because it
was still so deeply rooted in a racism, b transphobia,
and see a phobia against sex workers, right, Like, I
think a big part of it was that a lot
of them were sex workers, and there was like a
(25:09):
lot of stigma attached to that. Of course, so all
those are bad things to shun people.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
For, right right.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Anyhow, not much is really known about Marsha's life after
that point. There were a few notable things that happened.
In nineteen seventy five. For example, she was actually photographed
by Andy Warhol, which was a cool thing. One polaroid
of her was included in his project portfolio entitled Ladies
and Gentlemen.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
I think that got her a lot of fame, I mean,
you know what I mean. Like, I think when I
try to explain to someone who Marsha p. Johnson was,
especially if they're in the queer community, I'm like, you
know the picture from Andy Warhol, and they're like, are
the polaroid? And they're like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I've
seen her.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
I read it was weird though, because the kind of
image and the fame she got from that was very
different from the reality of what she was living, which was, like,
she was very poor, very much like on the street
at the time.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
Still surviving by sex work, right.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
And she only got paid you know, they only got
paid fifty dollars for that too, you.
Speaker 4 (26:06):
Know, oh write each model, right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Yeah, So things weren't super going well for Marcia despite
you know a few cool things like that, especially when
the nineteen eighties rolled around, Marsha's life, like so many
other gay people and so many other trans people at
the time, became really consumed by the HIV and AIDS crisis,
and she was a big part of all the movements,
the marches that were supposed to raise awareness of AIDS
(26:31):
and HIV, and she was also a part of the
you know, demonstrations to put pressure on government to do something,
do anything to help with us, which of course we know,
they really didn't, they didn't know. And so then on
June twenty sixth of nineteen ninety two, actually she disclosed
to an interviewer that she herself was HIV positive after
(26:51):
receiving a diagnosis just two years earlier. Sadly, Marcia would
only live less than two weeks after that revelation, and
for the moment, we need to take another break. But
when we come back, we will talk about how Marcia died,
or rather how she was murdered.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Now we're going to talk about how Marcia died, and sadly,
there's not a ton of information here, but we're going
to do the best we can. And I highly highly
recommend going to Netflix and watching the documentary The Death
and Life of Marcia P. Johnson, because transgender activists Victoria
Cruz did so much on researching Marcia's.
Speaker 4 (27:38):
Murder, I'm just going to call it a murder.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
So on the morning of July sixth, nineteen ninety two,
Marcia's body was actually found floating in the Hudson River,
and this was just two days after the year's Gay
Pride Parade, which was the last time that any of
Marcia's friends had actually seen her. So the autopsy report
could not prove a verifiable cause of death. Something I know,
(28:04):
my true crime mind is just I'm trying to be
a sponge, but I know from Truvor that a lot
of times when bodies are found in water, there's not
a whole lot that you can find out about what
happened to them. But one big thing to note. When
they pulled up Marshall's body, she had a big, gaping
wound in the back of her head.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
Yeah. Yeah, that's just it's so sad to think about her,
you know. Yeah, in the Hudson River, a lot of
her friends said that, you know, Marcia was in a
very fragile state, and we have to think about, right,
all of the things Marcia's been through, Like, she probably
was in a fragile state majority of her life, you know,
(28:46):
even though she was walking so tall and proud, still, right.
Speaker 4 (28:51):
She was a marginalized human.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
Yes, Yes, Marsha's cause of death was initially determined to
be a sue. Nope, Nope, we know that we all
know that that is not true, and especially Marsha's friends
and family, they never in a million years believed that
she would do them. Ever.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Yeah, it's a bit of a different conversation. I do
think when we're talking about trans people and depression and
suicidal ideations, I do think there's a conversation there. I
think it's probably a different episode, but it's always possible
and it's worth considering right, that said, there is a
lot of evidence we can talk about here that suggest otherwise.
So one of those is that her friend Randy Wicker,
(29:38):
came forward to police saying people had actually seen Marcia
get into a fight with a local gang just two
days before she was found dead, which is I mean.
Speaker 4 (29:48):
Not a coincidence.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
So one of those witnesses said Marcia was being constantly
harassed by one specific member of this gang, and that
this guy would shout all these homophobic slurs at her
in public, say all these horrible things and call her
names and harass are just non stop. So I mean
that right, there is a huge red flag.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Huge Yeah, And that witness account that you're talking about
was never verified only because it was never properly investigated
by the police. Police never followed up on any of
those leads that they got or reported any findings, and
that particular witness said he tried to tell police what
he knew, but he was totally brushed off. So sadly,
(30:30):
the mystery of Marsh's death remained just that a mystery.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
Yeah, I mean, maybe there's room here to talk about
why police would be so dismissive of a case like
Marcia's I think maybe the answer is probably very obvious,
which is that, you know, trans people at the time
were considered.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
Second class citizens than humane.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Certainly far from a priority for the NYPD, I'm sure,
and that's just really sad, and it speaks to I
think a lot of homophobia, transphobia, probably racism that was
prevalent at the time and I'm sure is still a
huge problem. So unfortunately, that's where her case kind of
stood for many years, really you know, again, police not
(31:13):
doing anything about it, and then in two thousand and two,
ten years later, there was a bit of public pressure
on the police to revisit the investigation and do something.
All they really did, though, was reclassify the suicide to
quote undetermined.
Speaker 4 (31:28):
Better than suicide, I guess, but still yep.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
So another decade goes by, and in twenty twelve, transactivist
Mariah Lopez does a lot of work to kind of
raise awareness of Marcia and the fact that her case
was never really solved, and she kind of rallies a
lot of people in New York City's LGBTQ plus community,
and they led police to reopen the investigation into Marsha's death,
(31:56):
which is pretty big. Sadly, the cause of death remained
unchanged though, so they reopened the case and really again
didn't do anything.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
So like right now it still says i'mdetermined, right, So
that's where it stands today.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Yeah, I mean, who knows if it'll ever change at
this point. You know, I think anybody who knows Marcia
probably knows what happened. But you know, as far as
something official on paper, we're probably never going to get it.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
Never say never, Trevor.
Speaker 4 (32:24):
Yeah, you got polypositive sisters right here. Never say never.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
I guess I'm always skeptical that, like, you know, racist
transphobic police are going to go out of their way
to solve like a twenty to thirty year old cold case.
I doubt it, you know, I know.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
I it's like you never say never in Hopes, right.
That's why we do this show. That's why we're doing
this podcast, you know, to help change people's thinking.
Speaker 5 (32:53):
You know.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
My take on Marcia was that she was, I mean,
at a very high risk for violence. Again, I go
back to her being queer, her being black, her being
a sex worker, being on the street, dealing with John's,
dealing with homophobic assholes, dealing with police brutality, I mean,
(33:19):
dealing with it all. I mean, it was just a
bad situation.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
And she was still unapologetically her Yes, you know, I
think we also have to keep in mind that Marcia
was well known in the community, and I think she
might have been a bigger target because of that. You know,
she was really well known for her activism work, for
her drag performing.
Speaker 4 (33:41):
She was a horrible.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Singer, but she was an amazing performer, and I trust me,
if you google it and you listen to Marsha sing,
it's like nails on a chalkboard, but you can't take
your eyes off of her. But you know, like the
sad thing is, it's like she she inspired so many
queer kids like me, you know, and so many humans
(34:04):
that aren't even in the queer community. And it's sad
that I think we may never know what actually happened
to her. And Marcia faced adversity, like we've been saying
her entire life, for being trans, for being queer, for
being a sex worker, all the things, and that may
have been the very reason that she was killed. But
(34:27):
this has to change for the rest of the community.
And I think how we can change this is by
number one dismantling homophobia and number two dismantle transphobia even
in our beautiful gay community. So I think we need
(34:47):
to take Marcia's example and work to dismantle all the
phobia's get rid of them bit by bit, and we
need to create more safe spaces for trans people everywhere.
I get really excited and when we get to talk
about things that people don't get to hear about a lot.
And I think these are some fantastic organizations that you
(35:08):
may not have heard of that you can donate to
to help the transgender community.
Speaker 4 (35:13):
And we're just naming a few here, but please look
them up.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Trans Housing Coalition, Housing Works, Black AIDS Institute and it's
named after her, the Marcia P. Johnson Institute. These are
organizations that are doing amazing work, and I think it's
a way that we can give back.
Speaker 4 (35:38):
All Right, it's time for our last segment of the day,
our EMUA.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
Today, we want to dedicate our EMUA to the beautiful
trans community, especially to the trans community of color. Everything
you do is a brave and bold statement of perseverance
and self actualization, and you deserve health, safety, and most important,
love and acceptance.
Speaker 3 (36:02):
That's right and we really want to honor those that
came before, especially and obviously Marsha pay it no Mine
Johnson and also Sylvia Rivera, the warrior of trans equality.
I mean, there are so many women who spend their
lives facing all types of evil, but the one thing
(36:25):
that they had in common, they never let that defeat them.
They kept continuing to fight for equal rights in this
country every moment of every day. Onward and Upward, Emua Ema.
(36:46):
Well that's our show for today. We'd love to hear
what you thought about today's discussion and if there is
a case you'd like us to cover, find us on
social media or email us at Facing Evil Pod at
tenderfoot dot tv until next time. Aloha.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV.
The show is hosted by Russia Pacquerero and Avet Gentile.
Matt Frederick and Alex Williams our executive producers on behalf
of iHeartRadio, with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk, Donald
Albright and Payne Lindsay our executive producers on behalf of
(37:51):
Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Claudia Dafrico.
Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on
social media or email us at facingevilpod at tenderfoot dot tv.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV, visit the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
(38:15):
favorite shows.
Hey everyone, Trevor here. Just want to hit y'all with
a quick disclaimer before we start today's episode. This week,
we'll be talking about a lot of issues relating to
the gay and trans communities, both now and as far
back as the nineteen sixties. Of course, terminology today is
a lot different from terminology back then. In fact, it's
a constantly evolving thing, so it can be tricky getting
(00:23):
it right sometimes. We're going to do our best today
to be as respectful as possible and use proper terms
and pronouns as we understand them. That said, we're human
and we might sometimes get it wrong or not all
the way correct. So if you notice something, please just
reach out to us and let us know. We're constantly
learning and we always want to do the right thing.
(00:44):
We're more than happy to take feedback and correct something
if we messed it up, so please hit us up
on social media. We're at Facing Evil pod. You're listening
to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV.
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely
(01:04):
those of the individuals participating in the show and do
not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV. This podcast
contains subject matter which may not be suitable for everyone.
Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Hello everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil from Tenderfoot TV
and iHeartRadio. We are your hosts. I'm Roschia Piccarero.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
And I am Eve Gentilea, and we are here as
always with our amazing producer Trevor Young.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
Hey, a man of many words. It's Trevor. I love it.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
So, guys, I had a crazy dream last night. Have
you ever dreamt that you were in a tidal wave
and you feel this, like you feel the sensation of
the wave like rolling about to roll over your head.
Speaker 4 (01:53):
So many times right, Like.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
It's I mean, it's crazy. So I was wondering, does
anybody know, like and you dream about stuff like that,
what it really means.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
I remember mom saying, because I've dreamt about tsunamis or
tidal waves like my whole life. And I remember her
when she was alive, she'd always say that just means
good change is coming, you know. Of course she was
polly positive, so she'd always say it was good change.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Any dreams I've ever had with like physical sensations is
usually more reflective of like some sort of like paranoia
I'm dealing with, you know, internally, you know, whether that's
about like some sort of natural disaster or something else
going on that manifests itself in a like physical movement,
whether it's in water or the earth shaking or whatever
it is.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
But oh, my god, Trevor, that's so deep because you
heard what I just said, right, I was dreaming about
a tsunami, and then there was an earthquake.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
Which causes a tsunami in real life.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Anyway, Yeah, alrighty well, please, Trevor, will you take us
through today's case.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
The police department found that Johnson, whose body was floating
in the Hudson River, committed suicide, but those closest to
her doubt that's the story.
Speaker 5 (03:06):
Her death twenty five years ago still remains a mystery.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Marcia Johnson said, I got my civil rights and then
threw a shot glass into a mirror, and that started
the riots.
Speaker 5 (03:17):
The idea that she was allowed to die without the
proper response from authorities to investigate what happened to her.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Marcia P. Johnson was a transgender activist and cultural icon
who lived in New York from the sixties through the
early nineties. She was a trailblazer for gay and trans rights,
and fought constantly to protect herself and those in her community.
The story of Marcia's death is a sad one and
is largely reflective of the world in which she struggled
(03:46):
to obtain rights. After the New York Gay Pride Parade
in nineteen ninety two, Marcia disappeared. No one is really
sure what happened to her, but her body was found
floating in the Hudson River just a few days later.
Marcia's case is unsolved to this day. It's unclear who
killed her or how she died, but the most common
(04:07):
theory is that transphobic gang members attacked her, killed her,
and then dumped her body. Marcia's death sent shockwaves through
the queer community. Not only was Marcia a well known figure,
almost like a mother to some, but it was upsetting
to many that the police did virtually nothing to investigate
her murder or disappearance. And so, what actually happened to Marcia?
(04:31):
Why was law enforcement so disinterested in finding out? And
how is her legacy one of both strife and perseverance
reflective of the ongoing struggles for queer acceptance.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
So let me just say as an openly gay woman.
I cannot begin to tell you how much Marcia means
to me personally. She was a trailblazer, an absolute icon,
and a in my humble opinion, and I truly believe
that without Marcia, we wouldn't have a fraction of the
(05:07):
amount of acceptance and love for queer people that we
actually have today.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
I agree. I think Marcia is one of the crowning
figures in the queer and especially the trans community. She
was really one of the first people to do it.
So I'm really happy we're doing this today.
Speaker 4 (05:23):
Frankly, I'm so proud.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
Yeah, And I have to say, you know, thank you
to my sister RuSHA for introducing me to miss Marsha P. Johnson,
because I would not have known about her otherwise. And
watching the Netflix special right was so inspiring, And I
believe that she's a part of all of our history,
(05:46):
not just the transgender community. But you know, I think
about how challenging it had to have been for Marcia,
especially in the nineteen sixties. I mean, first of all,
not just being queer, but being a person of color.
Just think about how much she actually had to overcome
(06:07):
and how much crap yep, that she probably had to
deal with like on the daily, on the.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
Daily exactly, and she wasn't the only one.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
You know. One huge reason that we want to talk
about Marcia today is that, sadly, her case, it's a
common story for many trans people across the world. In fact,
according to the Human Rights Campaign, of one hundred and
fifty seven reported cases of fatal violence against transgender women
(06:38):
since the year twenty thirteen, seventy eight percent of them
were transgender women of color.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
So let's also keep in mind that much of what's
going on here is wrapped up in sex work. It
was very common for transgender women, especially in New York
at that time, to in fact be sex workers. So
in that same report from the Human Rights Campaign, I
found that one in three victims of anti transgender fatal
violence since twenty thirteen reportedly engaged in some form of
(07:07):
sex work. So this is also a huge part of
what's going on here. It's a huge part of a
bigger problem we're talking about, and it's a big part
of Marcia's story.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
That's so true.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
I mean, sadly, I think Marcia had a lot, you know,
working against her. But because this is what we do
on basing evil. We need to see the light in
the darkness. We're hoping that Marcia's story can raise awareness
of the trend in violence against gay and trans people
of color. And we also we want to elevate the
(07:38):
story of Marsha herself and give her her flowers. She
never got her flowers, I believe, when she was actually
on this earth, So I just want to shower her
with all the flowers that we possibly can.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
I love that Marsha's been getting more attention in recent years,
and that's great to see. But I think you're right.
I think for decades past, a lot of people didn't
know about Marcia.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
So I think, yeah, yes, finally time for a whole
new generation to know about her.
Speaker 5 (08:03):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
And before we get into it and get into the
nitty gritty, I want to do a quick disclaimer about
terminology and pronouns. So during most of Marsha's life, she
presented as a woman. But in today's world, I think
that Marcia would have referred to herself as a transgender
woman or maybe even non binary or gender fluid. But
(08:26):
at the time, you know, those those terms weren't exactly
out there. I think she referred to herself as a transvestite, which,
of course you know we wouldn't use that word. So
although Marshall was assigned mail at birth, we will respectfully
refer to Marsha with she her pronouns at all times
throughout this podcast. And I truly believe that pronouns are
(08:50):
a way of validating one's identity in the LGBTQ community
and with allies. So my pronouns, with that all being said,
my pronouns are she, her, and I identify as a
lesbian or a gay woman. So I think it's important
to share with our audience. Trevor and Yvette, what are
your pronouns and how do you identify?
Speaker 3 (09:12):
My pronouns are she her? And I identify as a
straight female.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
And my pronouns are he him, and I identify as
a pan sexual male.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Thank you for that. I think it's important to share
that with the audience. You know, like, pronouns are definitely important.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
All righty Well, let's dive in. Trevor, can you tell
us about Marsha's background?
Speaker 1 (09:38):
I sure can so. On August twenty fourth of nineteen
forty five, Marcia was born as Malcolm Michaels junior in Elizabeth,
New Jersey. Marcia was part of a big New Yorker family.
One interesting thing is that her assigned middle name did
not actually start with ape, as in Marsha P. Johnson, Russia.
(09:58):
I know you love this story, so I thought i'd
let you tell us about why.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Well, I can't say Marsha's name without even saying the pee,
you know, because you know I read that later on
in life. You know, Marcia would always say that the
pee in Marsha P. Johnson stands for pay it no mind.
She wanted people to pay it no mind about her gender,
pay it no mind about her sexuality, all the things.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
And I just I love that so much.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
And of course Marsha's a signed surname, you know, with
Michael's so Johnson. Her last name was made up too,
And I heard that she picked that because she always
frequented the Howard Johnson's on Sixth Street in Manhattan. So
she just created her gorgeous, amazing self.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Yeah, And so Marcia would also say that she enjoyed
wearing dresses as early as age five growing up, but predictably,
she kind of got bullied in harrassed by other boys
in her neighborhood, and so this kind of turned her
off from wearing dresses and she didn't really do it
for the rest of her childhood. But bullying wasn't really
even the worst of it. According to Marcia, she was
(11:05):
also sexually assaulted by a thirteen year old boy when
she was a child, and this led her to refrain
from or engage in any sexual activity until she was seventeen.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
God, I can't even imagine, Like that's already like such
a rough childhood. And I also know that Marcia struggled
at home, and Marcia said that her mom often dismissed homosexuality.
But I read this weird quote where her mom supposedly
pressured Marcia into marrying a billionaire. I mean, isn't that
(11:39):
a weird thing to say? I mean, it just seems
like in the same breath, like.
Speaker 4 (11:44):
She knew Yeah, Like I know, right, Like did her
mom know she was gay?
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Like you wouldn't say that to a little boy, right,
like you should marry a billionaire.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
No, that's just so weird to me.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
But Marcia, you know, after high school, she ended up
moving to New York City in nineteen sixty three, and
apparently she only had fifteen dollars in her pocket and
one change of clothes with her at the time.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Yep, and Marcia eventually settled in Greenwich Village. She kind
of got by by waiting tables and also starting to
engage in sex work, supposedly near that Howard Johnson's on
six that you mentioned Rasha where she got her name.
But about the sex work, Marcia would say that being
a part of that community led to her coming out
and being her authentic self, quoting her here, my life
(12:34):
has been built around sex and gay liberation, being in drag,
queen and sex work. And so it was around this
time that Marcia also started appearing in drag publicly. According
to some photos we have and those who knew her,
her style was not really like the elevated drag that
you might see like on RuPaul's Drag Race or our
favorite very club stuff like that. Yeah we love RuPaul's Dragon, yes. Yeah.
(12:58):
And so obviously Marcia couldn't really forward all the big
fancy clothes you might see on that runway or you know,
anything like that, So she just kind of wore what
she could find for cheap, you know, anything she could
grab off her rack for five bucks. Or less or
whatever it was.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
But I will say she never looked cheap like she
I've seen amazing photos of her, Like she wasn't the
best at doing her makeup or you know, she didn't
always have the right wig.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
But she was tall and slim and beautiful, and she
had you know.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Long floyd dresses and robes, and she always, like any
good queen, always had shiny heels on. And when I
think of Marcia, I think of her Hawaiian haku lay,
her flower lay that she always wore on top of
her head.
Speaker 4 (13:43):
It's like she.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Needed yes the crown, like she knew that she was
a vibrant, beautiful queen.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Yeah. I love that she made them by herself. I
remember like reading about how she would just like kind
of like find these materials laying around and just piece
them together. And you know, I think most photos you
see of Marcia, she's probably got that on. So it's
it's kind of iconic at this point. And I will
say I do also think she struck a really unique
balance between femininity and masculinity, and that's really hard to do. Absolutely,
(14:16):
it seems to I think have been a really kind
of like new and very revolutionary thing for her at
the time, Like you probably just didn't see like a
lot of people who look like Marsha walking down the
street in New York City in the sixties.
Speaker 4 (14:28):
No, she was ahead of her time totally.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
I think it was super bold of her to do that.
And you know, she's clearly had a lot of confidence.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
Right, I mean, she really walked the walk, and she
lived out loud and proud and like you said earlier,
you know, in the sixties, I'm sure you didn't see
anybody walking around like that, you know, and especially so confident.
She was completely, one hundred percent fully living in her
own skin.
Speaker 4 (14:56):
And she gave zero f's. Yeah, and I love that.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Yeah, I love that she was confident. I don't necessarily
think that she desired the spotlight, you know. I think
she was just kind of doing her own thing and
just wanted to be herself. The reality, though, is that
whether she wanted it or not, she shortly after this
period was about to get a lot of attention, and
that's because of something called Stonewall, which some of you
might know about. We need to take a quick break,
(15:24):
but when we come back, we will talk about Stonewall
and Marshall's involvement in that.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
So now we are going to talk about something that
is so important to me and every single member of
the LGBTQ plus community and of course our allies, and
that is the Stonewall Uprising, also known as the Stonewall Riots.
Speaker 4 (15:49):
This was the.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Start of what we now call Pride. So, in case
you haven't heard about Stonewall, Stonewall was a huge moment
and movement for our community, and Marcia was a big
part of it.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Yeah, there are a ton of documentaries and other ways
you can learn about Stonewall, and I encourage everybody to
do that, But here's kind of the overview. So the
Stonewall Inn was a pretty popular gay bar in Greenwich
Village at the time. In nineteen sixty nine, they actually
started letting trans women and drag queens into the bar
for the first time, and Marsha was one of the
(16:23):
kind of first of those to frequent the Stonewall. In
the Inn was a bit of a DIY space, so
it didn't really have an official liquor license or anything
like that, and so the NYPD kind of knew about
some of the illegal activity going on here and they
kept a very like watchful eye on it, and they
were really looking for any chance to like pounce on
(16:45):
the stonewall in and so they did, of course they did.
On June twenty eighth of nineteen sixty nine, they initiated
a full raid of the Stonewall in Keep in mind,
it was also illegal for men to dress as women
at the time, so police raids of gay bars were
like a pretty common thing. You'd hear about that a lot.
(17:05):
But usually they would arrest like all the drag queens
and send them to jail. But this night that didn't happen.
Something completely different happened.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Yes, this night was different. It was very different because
the Stonewall patrons they decided that tonight enough was enough,
and they decided to fight back. They were tired of
being bullied and harassed, you know, so it goes. They
all got rounded up and they started pushing back against
(17:35):
the cops and yelling and screaming and all kind of
things started happening. But there was one particular drag queen
that she got shoved into the car and then they
slammed her head against the door. And you can imagine,
you know, everybody is witnessing this, and they slam her
head down, and the crowd just goes ballistic. They start booing,
(17:59):
they start yelling things like gay power, and some people,
they say, started throwing beer bottles, coins, I mean, all
kinds of things at the police cars. So this just
reminds me of what John Lewis would always say. This
was good trouble, good trouble. They were fighting back, they
were fighting against everything, police, brutality, brutality, like all the
(18:24):
things not being accepted. Everything. So when I say enough
was enough, this is the moment it all went down.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Yes, And one of the pivotal moments of that first night,
there was a lesbian who got into a violent scuffle
with four different police officers and they were beating her
with their batons and they actually pinned her to the ground.
And many witnesses actually reported that it was a black,
(18:51):
butch lesbian named Stormy de Larvay. And so the story
goes Stormy looked up at the crowd of bystanders and shouted,
why won't you do something? And that is the moment
that all of those witnesses said that the crowd absolutely
exploded and it became a full blown mob.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
That's right, I mean, And it got so crazy that
they started destroying and turning over police cars, and fires
were erupting like everywhere. I mean, it was utter chaos,
and obviously the commotion were pissed well right right, I
mean the commotion attracted more people, and soon they say
that over five hundred people were a part of this riot,
(19:38):
and it escalated into two days of full on rioting,
followed by I guess smaller demonstrations taking place over the
next week, So it was like a revolution.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
So Marcia's kind of credited as having a big role
in this. However, her involvement is actually a little bit
more mysterious than maybe people are willing to admit. So
they're kind of all these conflicting accounts of where and
when Marcia was at Stonewall, and really none of them
are verified, so we don't actually know where Marcia was,
(20:10):
but we're gonna throw a couple things out there and
just keep in mind that, again, none of it's verified.
So one of the rumors was that when the first
group pushed back against the police, when everything was really
starting to kind of happen for the first time, Marcia
was part of that group that was like yelling and
screaming and all that stuff. Marcia later denied that, though,
saying she wasn't even there at that time.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
I know one of my favorite stories was, well, the
police were arresting folks, Marcia. This is the story, right.
Marcia apparently threw a bottle or something in a mirror
and she shouted, I want my civil rights. I could
hear her too.
Speaker 4 (20:45):
I can always like.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
I can't to see her say God damn it, I
want my civil rights. There's something like that. But I
guess no one knows the exact quote. And some people
say that she threw a shot glass, but on other
account they say she threw a brick. I mean, I
don't know, we don't we really don't know. None of
it is verified, right, So who's to say?
Speaker 4 (21:10):
So what's so funny about that?
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Like you both said, like Marcia has denied it, it's
almost like she was like it was like a game
of telephone, like, ooh, did you see Marsha P.
Speaker 4 (21:19):
Johnson there? Oh, Marcia was there. Marsha was there, you know.
But for sure there are.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Witnesses that saw her there on the second night of rioting,
and many say that Marcia actually dropped a bag of
bricks on a police car. Windshield completely shattering it. So
that's probably where that brick story comes from.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Yeah, that's a good one.
Speaker 4 (21:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Yeah. So obviously Stonewall was crazy, and whether or not
Marsha was involved to that extent is you know, TBD
or what have you. I want to believe she was there, Sam, Yeah,
I mean it's a it's a really interesting thing that
she was kind of given credit, especially if she didn't,
you know, actually do any or some of that stuff.
And the fact that she kind of denied a lot
(22:01):
of it too is interesting to me. Like, you know,
maybe she was kind of like forced into this role
of being the face of this movement and maybe she
didn't even really want to be. I don't really know,
but I find that interesting to think about.
Speaker 4 (22:12):
Could be her humility too, She was very humble.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
Right, And you think about it too. She took care
of so many of them, right, and I think she
was just she was a legend to them. So it's like, well,
the legend had time to be there the first night.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
You know.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
The reality though, is that Marcia's biggest role was more
like in the aftermath of the things that happened after Stonewall,
and so after the dust had sort of settled and
the fires had been put out in Greenwich Village, Marcia
joined what was called the Gay Liberation Front, a sort
of new activist group created to build on the momentum
of the Stone Wall uprising. So on June twenty eighth
(22:48):
of nineteen seventy, which was a whole year after Stonewall,
Marcia walked in what was then the first ever gay
Pride rally in New York City, also known then as
the Christopher Street Liberation And this is how we got pride,
as Russia was saying.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
And then something happened a few years later in nineteen
seventy three that actually makes me incredibly, incredibly sad and
mad at the same time. I truly believe that this
was a huge blow to the transgender community and to
transgender rights and awareness.
Speaker 4 (23:22):
So both Marcia and.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Another legend in the trans community, Sylvia Riveta, were actually
banned from participating in the gay rights rally in nineteen
seventy three. The organizers were made up of cisgender gay
men and women, and they decided they didn't want any
drag queens or anyone from the trans community there, which
(23:45):
is sickening.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
To me because we're all a community.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
You can't leave them out just because you think they
don't represent all of us.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
That just breaks my heart. I don't even know why
they did that.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
I think in their heads maybe they thought like it
was a faster path to getting gay rights. I don't know,
but they completely cut out drag queens and the trans community,
and that just makes me so mad. And I've seen footage.
I've seen Sylvia grab the mic and screaming at the
top of her lungs, like.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
And they're booing her fast. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Yeah. I mean, if you think about white middle class
America in the nineteen seventies, you know, their perception of
gay people was so distorted and so different from what
you know, we think of today. And so I think
probably the organizers of the rally and the march, we're thinking, like, hey,
we need these people to see gay people is non threatening,
as non deviance or whatever it was.
Speaker 4 (24:40):
You know, we need to white wash it, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
We need essentially, Yeah, like we need to white wash
it and make it like palatable to you know, straight
middle class families and stuff like that.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
It's a major contradiction.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Yeah, I mean, there was kind of like this promise
of like you'll get yours eventually, but we have to
do this first step if we ever want to get
there kind of thing. But yeah, it sucks because it
was still so deeply rooted in a racism, b transphobia,
and see a phobia against sex workers, right, Like, I
think a big part of it was that a lot
of them were sex workers, and there was like a
(25:09):
lot of stigma attached to that. Of course, so all
those are bad things to shun people.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
For, right right.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Anyhow, not much is really known about Marsha's life after
that point. There were a few notable things that happened.
In nineteen seventy five. For example, she was actually photographed
by Andy Warhol, which was a cool thing. One polaroid
of her was included in his project portfolio entitled Ladies
and Gentlemen.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
I think that got her a lot of fame, I mean,
you know what I mean. Like, I think when I
try to explain to someone who Marsha p. Johnson was,
especially if they're in the queer community, I'm like, you
know the picture from Andy Warhol, and they're like, are
the polaroid? And they're like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I've
seen her.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
I read it was weird though, because the kind of
image and the fame she got from that was very
different from the reality of what she was living, which was, like,
she was very poor, very much like on the street
at the time.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
Still surviving by sex work, right.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
And she only got paid you know, they only got
paid fifty dollars for that too, you.
Speaker 4 (26:06):
Know, oh write each model, right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Yeah, So things weren't super going well for Marcia despite
you know a few cool things like that, especially when
the nineteen eighties rolled around, Marsha's life, like so many
other gay people and so many other trans people at
the time, became really consumed by the HIV and AIDS crisis,
and she was a big part of all the movements,
the marches that were supposed to raise awareness of AIDS
(26:31):
and HIV, and she was also a part of the
you know, demonstrations to put pressure on government to do something,
do anything to help with us, which of course we know,
they really didn't, they didn't know. And so then on
June twenty sixth of nineteen ninety two, actually she disclosed
to an interviewer that she herself was HIV positive after
(26:51):
receiving a diagnosis just two years earlier. Sadly, Marcia would
only live less than two weeks after that revelation, and
for the moment, we need to take another break. But
when we come back, we will talk about how Marcia died,
or rather how she was murdered.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Now we're going to talk about how Marcia died, and sadly,
there's not a ton of information here, but we're going
to do the best we can. And I highly highly
recommend going to Netflix and watching the documentary The Death
and Life of Marcia P. Johnson, because transgender activists Victoria
Cruz did so much on researching Marcia's.
Speaker 4 (27:38):
Murder, I'm just going to call it a murder.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
So on the morning of July sixth, nineteen ninety two,
Marcia's body was actually found floating in the Hudson River,
and this was just two days after the year's Gay
Pride Parade, which was the last time that any of
Marcia's friends had actually seen her. So the autopsy report
could not prove a verifiable cause of death. Something I know,
(28:04):
my true crime mind is just I'm trying to be
a sponge, but I know from Truvor that a lot
of times when bodies are found in water, there's not
a whole lot that you can find out about what
happened to them. But one big thing to note. When
they pulled up Marshall's body, she had a big, gaping
wound in the back of her head.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
Yeah. Yeah, that's just it's so sad to think about her,
you know. Yeah, in the Hudson River, a lot of
her friends said that, you know, Marcia was in a
very fragile state, and we have to think about, right,
all of the things Marcia's been through, Like, she probably
was in a fragile state majority of her life, you know,
(28:46):
even though she was walking so tall and proud, still, right.
Speaker 4 (28:51):
She was a marginalized human.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
Yes, Yes, Marsha's cause of death was initially determined to
be a sue. Nope, Nope, we know that we all
know that that is not true, and especially Marsha's friends
and family, they never in a million years believed that
she would do them. Ever.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Yeah, it's a bit of a different conversation. I do
think when we're talking about trans people and depression and
suicidal ideations, I do think there's a conversation there. I
think it's probably a different episode, but it's always possible
and it's worth considering right, that said, there is a
lot of evidence we can talk about here that suggest otherwise.
So one of those is that her friend Randy Wicker,
(29:38):
came forward to police saying people had actually seen Marcia
get into a fight with a local gang just two
days before she was found dead, which is I mean.
Speaker 4 (29:48):
Not a coincidence.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
So one of those witnesses said Marcia was being constantly
harassed by one specific member of this gang, and that
this guy would shout all these homophobic slurs at her
in public, say all these horrible things and call her
names and harass are just non stop. So I mean
that right, there is a huge red flag.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Huge Yeah, And that witness account that you're talking about
was never verified only because it was never properly investigated
by the police. Police never followed up on any of
those leads that they got or reported any findings, and
that particular witness said he tried to tell police what
he knew, but he was totally brushed off. So sadly,
(30:30):
the mystery of Marsh's death remained just that a mystery.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
Yeah, I mean, maybe there's room here to talk about
why police would be so dismissive of a case like
Marcia's I think maybe the answer is probably very obvious,
which is that, you know, trans people at the time
were considered.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
Second class citizens than humane.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Certainly far from a priority for the NYPD, I'm sure,
and that's just really sad, and it speaks to I
think a lot of homophobia, transphobia, probably racism that was
prevalent at the time and I'm sure is still a
huge problem. So unfortunately, that's where her case kind of
stood for many years, really you know, again, police not
(31:13):
doing anything about it, and then in two thousand and two,
ten years later, there was a bit of public pressure
on the police to revisit the investigation and do something.
All they really did, though, was reclassify the suicide to
quote undetermined.
Speaker 4 (31:28):
Better than suicide, I guess, but still yep.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
So another decade goes by, and in twenty twelve, transactivist
Mariah Lopez does a lot of work to kind of
raise awareness of Marcia and the fact that her case
was never really solved, and she kind of rallies a
lot of people in New York City's LGBTQ plus community,
and they led police to reopen the investigation into Marsha's death,
(31:56):
which is pretty big. Sadly, the cause of death remained
unchanged though, so they reopened the case and really again
didn't do anything.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
So like right now it still says i'mdetermined, right, So
that's where it stands today.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Yeah, I mean, who knows if it'll ever change at
this point. You know, I think anybody who knows Marcia
probably knows what happened. But you know, as far as
something official on paper, we're probably never going to get it.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
Never say never, Trevor.
Speaker 4 (32:24):
Yeah, you got polypositive sisters right here. Never say never.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
I guess I'm always skeptical that, like, you know, racist
transphobic police are going to go out of their way
to solve like a twenty to thirty year old cold case.
I doubt it, you know, I know.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
I it's like you never say never in Hopes, right.
That's why we do this show. That's why we're doing
this podcast, you know, to help change people's thinking.
Speaker 5 (32:53):
You know.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
My take on Marcia was that she was, I mean,
at a very high risk for violence. Again, I go
back to her being queer, her being black, her being
a sex worker, being on the street, dealing with John's,
dealing with homophobic assholes, dealing with police brutality, I mean,
(33:19):
dealing with it all. I mean, it was just a
bad situation.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
And she was still unapologetically her Yes, you know, I
think we also have to keep in mind that Marcia
was well known in the community, and I think she
might have been a bigger target because of that. You know,
she was really well known for her activism work, for
her drag performing.
Speaker 4 (33:41):
She was a horrible.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Singer, but she was an amazing performer, and I trust me,
if you google it and you listen to Marsha sing,
it's like nails on a chalkboard, but you can't take
your eyes off of her. But you know, like the
sad thing is, it's like she she inspired so many
queer kids like me, you know, and so many humans
(34:04):
that aren't even in the queer community. And it's sad
that I think we may never know what actually happened
to her. And Marcia faced adversity, like we've been saying
her entire life, for being trans, for being queer, for
being a sex worker, all the things, and that may
have been the very reason that she was killed. But
(34:27):
this has to change for the rest of the community.
And I think how we can change this is by
number one dismantling homophobia and number two dismantle transphobia even
in our beautiful gay community. So I think we need
(34:47):
to take Marcia's example and work to dismantle all the
phobia's get rid of them bit by bit, and we
need to create more safe spaces for trans people everywhere.
I get really excited and when we get to talk
about things that people don't get to hear about a lot.
And I think these are some fantastic organizations that you
(35:08):
may not have heard of that you can donate to
to help the transgender community.
Speaker 4 (35:13):
And we're just naming a few here, but please look
them up.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Trans Housing Coalition, Housing Works, Black AIDS Institute and it's
named after her, the Marcia P. Johnson Institute. These are
organizations that are doing amazing work, and I think it's
a way that we can give back.
Speaker 4 (35:38):
All Right, it's time for our last segment of the day,
our EMUA.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
Today, we want to dedicate our EMUA to the beautiful
trans community, especially to the trans community of color. Everything
you do is a brave and bold statement of perseverance
and self actualization, and you deserve health, safety, and most important,
love and acceptance.
Speaker 3 (36:02):
That's right and we really want to honor those that
came before, especially and obviously Marsha pay it no Mine
Johnson and also Sylvia Rivera, the warrior of trans equality.
I mean, there are so many women who spend their
lives facing all types of evil, but the one thing
(36:25):
that they had in common, they never let that defeat them.
They kept continuing to fight for equal rights in this
country every moment of every day. Onward and Upward, Emua Ema.
(36:46):
Well that's our show for today. We'd love to hear
what you thought about today's discussion and if there is
a case you'd like us to cover, find us on
social media or email us at Facing Evil Pod at
tenderfoot dot tv until next time. Aloha.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV.
The show is hosted by Russia Pacquerero and Avet Gentile.
Matt Frederick and Alex Williams our executive producers on behalf
of iHeartRadio, with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk, Donald
Albright and Payne Lindsay our executive producers on behalf of
(37:51):
Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Claudia Dafrico.
Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on
social media or email us at facingevilpod at tenderfoot dot tv.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV, visit the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
(38:15):
favorite shows.
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