October 6, 2022 • 37 mins
We finish our deep dive into the case of Jon Benét Ramsey.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
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Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hi, everyone, welcome back. This is Facing Evil from Tenderfoot
TV and iHeartRadio. We are your host. I am Evech
and Telay.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
And I'm Rascha Pecerrero. So welcome back to our two
part episode on the murder of John Benny Ramsey. So
this is part two, so please make sure that you
listened to last week's episode if you want to be
completely caught up, because there is a lot on this case.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
And since this is part two, we're just gonna dive
right back in. So here is a quick refresher. Okay.
On our last episode, we talked about the Ramsey family
and how their daughter John Bennet, was active in the
child beauty pageant scene. We talked about my experience in
the pageant scene as well. So then we went through
a detailed account of the night she was killed, about
(01:16):
how there was a strange handwritten ransom note left behind.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Yeah, and we also talked about how John Benet how
she actually was killed, and then we discussed the fallout
as her parents, John and Patsy became prime suspects in
her murder, despite appearing on television multiple times to plead
their innocence and push the idea that the killer was
actually an intruder.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Lastly, we ended with the announcement of the special Grand
Jury in nineteen ninety eight, where witness accounts would be
heard and new evidence revealed. So today we're going to
talk about what happened at the grand jury. We're also
going to discuss some of the odd discrepancies in this case,
and finally we'll explore some common theories as to what
(02:02):
actually happened. So Trevor start us off. What happened at
the grand jury.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
So the grand jury officially began on September fifteenth of
nineteen ninety eight, and it was initiated by Special Prosecutor
Michael Caine. So, according to the prosecution team, the goal
of this whole grand jury was to consider inditing the Ramses,
John and Patsy for charges related to the murder. So
(02:30):
many people have actually noted how Cain called witnesses to
the stand specifically to point the finger or express blame
towards the Ramsey family. One of those people was Detective
Linda Art who we've talked about a bunch. She was
one of the first people on the scene who didn't
do a fantastic job of cordoning off the crime scene. However,
(02:54):
Detective Arn't was very publicly suspicious of the Ramses. She
has some thoughts about how the Ramseys behaved that was
potentially condemning them or making it seem like they were
hiding something. So Cain, the prosecutor, also summoned to the
stand a handwriting expert who believed that Patsy forged the
(03:17):
ransom note that was found in the house on those stairs.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
So on October thirteenth, forensic evidence, including DNA, hair fibers,
and handwriting was all heard by the grand jury, but
nothing so far as really matching up or pointing in
any direction. And on December third of nineteen ninety eight,
investigators even asked for more DNA samples from all of
the extended Ramsey family.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Right and supposedly the goal was to rule out the
family members that's why they told them they were doing this.
We just want to make sure your DNA doesn't match
that sort of thing. So, on May nineteenth of nineteen
ninety nine, John Benaye's brother Burke Is officially ruled out
as a suspect in his sister's murder, and then, finally,
almost after thirteen months of deliberation, the grand jury adjourned
(04:05):
on October thirteenth of nineteen ninety nine.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
The result, though, was, as I could say, a bit
anti climactic, because the Boulder County District Attorney, Alex Hunter,
ultimately decided not to prosecute the Ramses. He said that
they did not have enough evidence to prosecute anyone at all.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Like, huh right, Yeah, And although the grand jury ended
without any real conclusions, the investigation was still ongoing. So
and so you might think it would have been kind
of smart for the Ramses to maybe keep their head down,
stay out of the spotlight.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
But no.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
In fact, on March seventeenth of two thousand, John and
Patsy actually published a book called the Death of Innocence.
It was all about John Benet's murder and how it
impacted them after it release. They were actually sued for
defamation by two individuals initially named by the Bolder police
(05:07):
as suspects, but those cases, I guess were later dropped.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Yeah, and then you have to remember that this entire time,
Patsy was still battling cancer and in the last episode
we mentioned how she was diagnosed in nineteen ninety three
with ovarian cancer. And sadly, I mean, it came back
on June twenty fourth of two thousand and six and
Patsy Ramsey she ultimately died from the cancer and she
(05:36):
was laid to rest next to John Benay in Marietta, Georgia.
So can you imagine John now has his older daughter Elizabeth,
he has his younger daughter, John Benay, and now his
wife that are gone.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
Yeah, sad, so sad.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Well, later that year, something kind of weird happened. Strange
suspect came forward. On August sixteenth of two thousand and six,
a person from Georgia named Alexis Valerin Reich, formerly known
as John Mark Carr, was arrested in Thailand. So, just
as a quick disclaimer, Reich is a transwoman. But at
(06:16):
the time of this incident that all of this was
going down, they were presenting as a man. So Reich
was a former school teacher that had moved to Thailand
supposedly to avoid being charged with possession of child pornography
in the United States. And apparently Reich had made a
bizarre confession where she claimed she was in fact John
(06:39):
Benet's killer and described the strangulation in very graphic, very
sexual detail. So, according to NBC, she told reporters, quote,
I was with John Benay when she died. Her death
was an accident end quote. And then when asked if
she was innocent of the crime, Reike said no. However,
(07:00):
it was very quickly discovered that the confession was entirely false.
DNA tests ruled Reich out almost immediately, and then Reike's
family actually provided very strong evidence that Reike was with
them in Georgia at the time of John Benney's murder
in Colorado, so like thousands of miles away. So I
(07:22):
don't know what happened here. I guess this was just
a person who was very obsessed with the case, maybe
wanted some time in the spotlight, or.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Mentally not well or yeah, well, definitely, we know that
has to be one of the main factors, right or
somebody trying to take credit for a murder right and
describing it in graphic detail like it's super super disturbing. Finally,
(07:52):
in July of two thousand and eight, the Ramsey family
members are officially cleared as suspects in John Benney's murder
thanks DNA testing. And I didn't know that fact until
I was doing research for this podcast, Like the DA
even apologized to the entire Ramsey family, And that was
all the way back in two thousand and eight, and
we're in twenty twenty two right now. In that same report,
(08:14):
police said that they had actually identified some third parties
DNA on John Benny's actual panties and if they could
actually match that DNA, that would be incredibly strong evidence.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
But they have yet to do that.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
That was again, all the way back in two thousand
and eight, and sadly that more or less concludes the
official investigation of the murder of John Benny Ramsey.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Yeah, but there's I mean, there's still a ton more
to discuss here, because, like we said, people online have
absolutely broken this case down like bit by bit by
peace by piece, I mean, and there are tons of
theories and discrepancies that change everything and it's constantly, right,
(09:05):
constantly change.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Started in those chat rooms back in the nineties, right,
like Trevor Sacly.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yeah, So buckle up, y'all. This case is about to
get wild.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
And we will dig into all of that right after
we take a quick break.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
So this case is full of wild discrepancies, things that
absolutely do not add up, and that has led to
a huge number of theories and suspects. Let's start with
the discrepancies first. That nine to one one call, the
first call to the police placed by Patsy Ramsey on
the morning of December twenty sixth, has become a big
(09:46):
point of contention. The nine to one one operator has
actually said that Patsy's tone at the time seemed rehearsed,
and some believe that her panic seemed staged. There's also
the weird issue with Burke and the phone call and
hearing Burke in the background, because John and Patsy actually
claimed that he was still asleep, so why would we
be hearing Burke's voice on that enhanced nine one one call?
Speaker 4 (10:10):
And Burke being awake points to.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
The possibility that he was actually more involved in the
situation than the family had claimed, and honestly, you know,
in my opinion, I think all these years that's what
I thought had happened. I personally thought that maybe Burke
had accidentally killed his sister and the parents were desperately
trying to protect him.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Okay, So next up is that famous ransom note. You
do remember it, right? It was found on the stairs
that morning, and many believe that there was something fishy there.
I mean, first of all, as we know, it was
written on paper from Patsy's personal stationery and with a
pin from inside the Ramsays home. And it was also
(10:54):
filled with a ton of strange language choices that can
I just say no by he really understands what the
hell it means.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yeah, and for context, I will read a few choice
excerpts that I pulled. Here's the first one. Quote listen
carefully with an exclamation mark. We are a group of
individuals that represent a small foreign faction. We in redacted
respect your business, but not the country that serves it.
End quote, which kind of I guess implies that this
(11:25):
is some sort of like foreign terrorist group.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
Oh, okay, share, I'm not sure.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Here's another one quote, don't try to grow a brain, John,
You are not the only fat cat around. So don't
think that killing will be difficult. Don't underestimate us, John,
use that good Southern common sense of yours. It is
up to you now, John end quote. So again, this
is weird. It's like somehow they're implying that they have
(11:53):
some agenda, you know, that's like about the country, but
then they somehow also know John personally and getting that
detail away. To me, this feels fake, is the only
thing I'll say about this. Well, I know we're going
to talk about some of the popular theories in a minute,
but my main takeaway reading this note is this all
feels like inconsistent and made up by somebody.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
This is my thought, right.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
It's also suspicious that the ransom amount that they demanded
was one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars, which is the
exact amount that John had just recently received for his
Christmas bonus. And since John Binney was sadly most likely
dead by the time that this ransom note was written,
the whole thing makes it look like the parents were
(12:41):
involved in the murder and they were just attempting to write,
like Trevor said, a fake ransom letter to divert attention
away from themselves. So yes, I think that that's plausible,
especially when you realize that the ransom was never really
brought up, like.
Speaker 4 (12:57):
While they were searching for Jumpine. No, they don't even
talk about it.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
And maybe it's because one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars
isn't that much money to them. I mean, I don't know,
but John never bothered to talk about the money, addressed
it in any way, or even talk about these kidnappers.
It was almost completely ignored and dropped.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Yeah. I mean my instinct if like I had learned that,
you know, my child or loved one had been kidnapped
by somebody and was holding them ransom, would be to
like communicate with them, like get them back, you know,
but that like has never brought up. Instead, they're like, well,
we got to search the house for John Benet, right right, right?
If they know she's in the house somehow that like
she hasn't been kidnapped somewhere else.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
Right yeah right?
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Yeah, Because see when you think about that, like the
first thing would come to mind is get the money, right,
go get the money that they asked for.
Speaker 4 (13:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Okay, so there's so many weird things, but I promise
this is the last one, but it's not. As we know,
there was some crime scene contamination when they found John Benet.
We of course have no idea whether that was intentional
or not, but any possible evidence we could have gotten
(14:06):
from the house on that particular day or the body,
we know it was ruined after the cops arrived. So Trevor,
please remind us of what happened.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Yeah, so, pretty much from the moment that cops walk
into the house, a number of things go wrong. One
of those is that guests arrive at the Ramsey house.
You remember fleet White and his wife arrived shortly thereafter,
and police let them in. So that was a failure
to cordon off the crime scene. They just were letting
(14:39):
people kind of come, which is bad. And then of
course they allowed the family members to search the house
with them, right, so they assigned John and fleet White
the task of searching the house and touching things and
looking for the body. And the result of this is
that John finds the body. Even though police couldn't find
(15:02):
the body, he picks it up, so he touches the body,
he rips off the duct tape. Police never even investigate
the spot where her body is found or if they
investigate it, they don't investigate it in the way it
was when she was like found dead.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Does that makes sense?
Speaker 4 (15:15):
Yeah, yes, it was moved.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
We have no idea what that crime scene actually even
looked like because John messed with it and we just
kind of took his word for it. So finally they
let Patsy also touched the body when she was brought
into the living room, and so maybe we could have
learned that Patsy's fingerprints or DNA were on John Benny's
body before that point, in which case that would have
(15:39):
told us something. But because you know, we know that
she touched her when she was grieving, supposedly, you know,
it's impossible to identify whether that DNA or fingerprints were
from that, you know, occasion or from a different occasion
from before when the police arrived. So again we have nothing.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Yeah, we yeah, exactly, we have nothing. I mean, and
I just go back to that first police officer, Linda
Aren't like she let them just like you said, you know,
go look for the body. Like that just doesn't sit
right with me.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
So with all of that in mind, in the contaminated
crime scene, let's talk about the different theories that are
floating around, because as we have discussed, there are many
and they're a little wild. But of course one that
we do need to talk about, which like y'vett originally thought,
you know, that Patsy was the killer. So a lot
(16:32):
of people believe that it was John Benay's mom. According
to Rolling Stone, some believe that, while you know, cleaning
up one of John Benet's bed wedding incidents, that Patsy
got crazy, angry and slammed John Benet's little head against
the side of some hard, blunt surface, like maybe a
bathtub or the bed frame. So another thing to support
(16:55):
the idea of Patsy killing John Benet was that she
was at least partially killed by a garrot, which is
like a wire used for strangulation, and that handle was
determined to have been made from one of Patsy's paintbrushes.
So the last thing is that the ransom note again
was written on Patsy's stationary, and that initially her handwriting
(17:18):
was not ruled out when they were comparing it with
the note. So those are kind of the few big
things that point to Patsy being being the killer.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Yeah, I mean, and again, I go back to I
thought from the very beginning, like that was my first impression,
is that Patsy was this obsessed, you know, pageant mom
who you know, or maybe her daughter wasn't performing the
way that she wanted her to perform. I don't know.
And then watching Patsy on television, like they're just she
(17:47):
didn't seem like she was all there, So I thought, Okay,
well that's plausible she could possibly have flipped out and
done this. I don't know, what do you guys think?
Speaker 1 (17:57):
It seems like a bit of a weird horror story situation, right,
like this obsessed mom like taking her you know, anger
out on her daughter and killing her. It reminds me
of a movie by a Sotoshi Cone called Perfect Blue.
Have you've ever seen that? So? Perfect Blue is about
a pop star musician in Japan. It's an animated film,
(18:21):
and the whole idea is that as a pop star
with a lot of visibility and like fame, she has
like all these like kind of like creepy stalkers who
and so the movie like is making you think that,
you know, they are these creepy stalker people had to
like kill her or harm her in some way, and
then you realize at the end, like the person who's
most trying to harm her, her mom, is like her,
not her mom, but her agent, who is also like an.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
Order like close person close to her.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Yeah, it was kind of like the story of Selena. Also, yeah,
if you know about that, right, it's like this other
woman who's older, who is like very envious, ended up
being like the most danger.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
To her, right, Yeah, that's true in pop movies like Bodyguard,
right when Whitney Houston is this famous superstar, remember, and
then the killer ends up being her sister, the one
who's sending the ransom notes and stuff like that.
Speaker 4 (19:12):
So yeah, I can't imagine that it's Patsy.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
I mean, like, well, of course, you know, may she
rest in peace, says she's not alive to defend herself.
But I can't see a mother harming a child. But
you know, sadly, we do know that it happens.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
But well, there are more theories, so yeah, oh, let's more.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Sorry, Okay, there's this theory. So the dad, John Ramsey,
was responsible. So this is the other theory, right, and
this is because, as we said earlier, he was the
one who found the body before the investigators did. And
the thing about this is nobody saw him find the body.
(19:54):
He just said that he found her and he brought
her upstairs. And like you said earlier, right, Trevor, he
took the duct tape off of her mouth as well,
So all that evidence is gone because he's already touched it, right.
So the theory is maybe he already knew where John
Bennet was and the whole discovery was just an act.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Very possible. I mean, the police officer wasn't able to
find them. They spent hours searching and never found her.
So the fact that he John was able to find
her so quickly is certainly suspicious.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
Yeah again, Devil's Advocate. It was a fifteen room house
and really large too, So maybe he just got lucky.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
I don't know if you get lucky in your own house.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
But okay, yeah, yeah, I mean there was one other
piece of I guess you can call it evidence that
pointed to John. Really, this is just a theory that
people have talked about online. So if you remember, John
Benay was found with vaginal ligatures, so many people put
forth this idea that John was you know, somehow sexually
(21:05):
abusing John Benney his daughter and that that's where that
came from, and that like maybe this was a night
where he was like creeping into his daughter's room to
do this and something went wrong and he killed her. Yeah,
it's a theory online, right, that one I'm skeptical of
and certainly don't want to ever accuse anyone of that
without any proof. And that's the thing, there was no
real proof of this theory. The family vehemently denied it,
(21:29):
and they even said publicly, quote, there is no history
of sexual assault. A person doesn't just go throughout their
lives as a normal human being and then one night
turn into a monster, slaughter their daughter, go to bed,
get up and act normal from there on. That doesn't
happen end quote. And I mean, I don't know if
(21:49):
that actually did happen. That's horrible, but it sounds really
weird to me. I mean, I think there's some truth
to that quote, right, Like, there's really no history of
this and there's nothing else to bet.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
Yeah, and normally abusers have a pattern and a history
and a Yeah, it doesn't just come out of nowhere
and then go away again.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Yeah, and he was for some reason for me, he
was not at the top of my list.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
Yeah, and he's very active today in talking about John Benney,
like he goes to crime con he I believe, he's written,
you know, other books and he's he just seems so
authentic and so real and so devastated by everything that's
happened to his family. And sadly, no matter what happens,
(22:38):
people are always going to think that possibly that he
or Patsy did it.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Well, that's the thing. And you know, I love Elizabeth
Vargas and there's a special that she did and it's
called Hunting John Benney's Killer. And there's many things that
they talk about in this, but one of the things
that was that stood out to me is John Ramsey
said that if they did find the killer, right all
(23:03):
these years later, they found the DNA of who killed
John Beney, still twenty percent of society would still put
the blame on the Ramsey family.
Speaker 4 (23:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
So another huge theory out there is that her brother Burke,
somehow actually did the killing. And that's you know what
I had thought for a long time. It felt like
the parents were covering up something and maybe they were
trying to protect their son. You know, investigators discovered what
they called a perfectly rectangular defect in John Beney's head.
(23:39):
They suspected that it came from a blow from a
big flashlight, which can actually be seen in a photo
that was on the kitchen counter in the crime scene photos.
So supposedly the flashlight fit the eight and a half
inch gash in her skull to perfection, but no evidence
of either John Benet or Burke were actually found on
(24:00):
the flashlight.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
So yeah, there was also something else that pointed to Burke,
if you remember, John Benay also had a couple of
injuries on her back that looked like maybe.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
Cuts or lacerations.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Yeah. Yeah, So investigators initially thought they were from like
a stun gun, like some sort of home in trader
or something, or somebody like hit her with a stun gun,
but they later discovered that they the marks were consistent
with the edges of one of Burke's toy train tracks,
so police thought Burke used them to like nudge or
(24:31):
poke his sister's unconscious body for a response, like after
some incident had happened. Yeah, the question of whether or
not Burke did it to me is the only big
plausible one out of the three of the parents. I
don't want to like make any false accusations, but if
we're just purely looking at the facts, I think, like
(24:51):
you said, the parents seemed to be lying for a
reason to cover up something going on this night. We
don't know what, but it feels like if they were
trying to get themselves out of the situation, there are
things they would have done differently. It very much felt
like they were covering up for somebody else, and the
only other person there was Burke. And remember, like Burke
(25:12):
was heard in the background of that nine one one call,
so he was clearly awake and involved in some capacity
that they are not telling us about. So it feels
like they are lying for Burke many times.
Speaker 4 (25:23):
Right.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
So, Okay, there's one more theory that we need to
talk about, and this is really the one that's most
prominent today. But we have to take another break, so
we'll talk about that theory when we come back.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Okay, So, the last big theory is the intruder theory.
So CBS would report that there were thirty eight registered
sex offenders in a two mile radius of the Ramsays home,
and that there were over a hundred burglaries in their
namemborhood in the months before the murder. So this is
(26:04):
another theory. You have thirty eight sex offenders. That's a
huge number, and especially in you know, this is a
money area.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Yeah, and this is the theory that was being pushed
by the Ramsey parents themselves, like on TV, like, we
live in a dangerous area and some wacko did this
to our daughter. And this is now essentially where the
investigation stands because it's been ongoing. So the investigation currently
believes that it was in fact two intruders. They think
(26:37):
this because there were actually two distinct bootprints in the
room where John Bennie was found, the wine cellar that
they later discovered. There was also a report of a
ban that was at some point squatting outside the Ramsey house.
They had two accounts of this. One was the night
before she was murdered and then also the day after.
So multiple times they're seeing this van, which makes people
(27:00):
think there's somebody stalking Jump and at I think there's
a lot of a lot of evidence to back this up. Frankly,
I mean, this is kind of what we've been alluding
to this whole episode or two two episodes, which is
that you know, Jean Benet had a very public profile, yep,
and you know there are a lot of creepers out there.
Whoever the creepy dude was on the float that night,
(27:22):
you know, the night before or a couple nights before
she went missing.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
I mean for me, like again, I started with Patsy,
then I thought it was Burt. But what seems the
most plausible for me is an intruder, but an intruder
that knew their comings and goings. Yes, Like I feel
like somebody was watching them and got into the house
(27:49):
and did this.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Yeah, I mean, if you remember too, that actually makes
sense because one of the first suspects they looked at,
and I mentioned this on part one was Bill McReynolds,
who was the guy who played Santa Claus that night
at the holiday party.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
I don't they always the creepers, the ones that play
Santa or clowns.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Don't say that about Santa Russia.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
Yeah, I'm sorry, Santa impersonators, nothing personal, but you're kind
of creepy.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
I've always thought Santa's were creepy. I'm sorry. I don't
even anyhow he would actually fit that profile really well, right,
because he knew them. He was like a neighbor, so
he knew their comings and goings. However, he was officially
dismissed as a suspect eventually, So.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Right, right, it could have been like you know, John
Bennet was in the pageant scene. She was, you know,
on this flow. It could have been another pageant father
who was obsessed with young girls. I mean, I just
really think that it was somebody other than one of
the family members.
Speaker 4 (28:49):
Yeah, I think so too.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Yeah, it was just I mean a couple of days
earlier that she had one little Miss Christmas pageant in Denver,
so like there was a lot of like eyes on
her around that time. I think one thing that backs
up this idea too is the fact that she was
clearly sexually assaulted in some way. Yeah, so in this theory,
it would mean that one of these creepy dudes had
(29:12):
desires to sexually harm this child, and so that would
make sense of the trauma they found on her body.
Speaker 5 (29:19):
Yeah, yeah, it's whoever did it was clearly a pedophile, absolutely,
And I just have to say, you know, while we're
talking about you know, the whole pageantry, like a lot
of people have really criticized, you know, Patsy for pushing
John Bennet into it.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
And you know, there's definitely something about that, right, because
trying to make your child, you know, compete like in
an industry that she was once in, right by dressing
her up and doing the heavy makeup in the dresses,
like she's trying to live vicariously through her daughter, right,
(30:00):
But at the same time, like we have to remember
she's five years old.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Yeah, I mean there's some danger to like making your
child an object of sex appeal for sure.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Yeah, you know, I think it kind of makes her
a target in a really messed up way. And I
hate to say it that way, but you know, this
just gets I think, into a philosophical conversation about whether
or not you believe in child beauty pageants should be
a thing or not, like if they are dangerous. And
I think that's probably where a lot of that criticism
of Patsy comes from, not saying she did it herself,
(30:34):
but that indirectly she like set way up to be
stocked and eventually killed.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
Right, Yeah, So I do want to point something out, right,
So once again, the media was absolutely relentless in this
case and very similar to the cases of Lacy Peterson
and Matthew Shepard. This case was on every TV station,
every magazine. It was in the news cycle for literal years,
(31:03):
and people were obsessed and I was one of them.
Speaker 4 (31:06):
Me too.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
Yeah, I had a really hard time reading the details,
but I wanted to and I want to know who
killed John Benny Ramsey. But like, it just it makes
me sad, like especially like having a voice, and we're
all having this discussion, right It's like we could be
having this discussion at Yvette's you know house in San Francisco,
and no one else would be hearing it, but the
world is hearing it. So whether that's good or bad,
(31:31):
it definitely can negatively impact the Ramsey family. And you know,
we're not the only ones talking about the John Benney
murder case, and we have to think about it. Right,
The Ramses were completely thrown into the spotlight when their
little girl was murdered, and I can only imagine what
(31:51):
they went through, what Burke went through, and John and Patsy,
like everyone in the Ramsey family, and Burke, you know,
has since led a very private life, with the exception
of the fact that he was actually interviewed by Yvette.
Speaker 4 (32:10):
Our friend doctor Phil.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
Yep, doctor Phil, Yep.
Speaker 4 (32:14):
We love our doctor Phil.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
So let's listen to a clip of Burke being interviewed
by doctor Phil.
Speaker 6 (32:20):
Now, I remember the casket is small and her eyes
were closed. I think one of her eyes was a
little bit like droopy or something. I thought that was weird.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
How did you feel seeing her?
Speaker 6 (32:32):
A lot of sadness. I don't think I really fully
grasped like after this, I won't see her again.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
So when you listen to Burke, there's clearly a lot
of pain there because at nine years old, he went
through horrific trauma. And of course I know that people
want to know the truth. But I can only imagine
that this ruined Burke's life, and I truly, truly, truly
(33:03):
believe that we should do our best to give him
and the entire Ramsey family, you know, some some peace, greed.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Yeah, I think you know, whatever the truth is, you know,
Burke went through something horrible. Yeah, you know, as far
as the facts tell us, you know, both he and
his parents are not responsible for this murder, so until
proven otherwise, Like, people need to stop harassing Burke, Yeah,
people need to stop accusing him of things and unless
there's something concrete, yeah, exactly, you know, and either way,
(33:34):
he was just a kid. He was. Even if something
did happen, it wouldn't have been intentional.
Speaker 4 (33:38):
Yeah, right.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
I just hope he's had the opportunity to go through
like PTSD and trauma therapy and it can really help.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
We all know that, you know, generational trauma is a
real thing. So and you can imagine him being nine
years old and having to deal with this his whole life.
Speaker 6 (33:57):
Right.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
So some people, you know, when they saw that clip
of him on Doctor Phil, you know, everybody is trying
to analyze like, Okay, well, is he did he do it?
Is he right in the head?
Speaker 6 (34:08):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (34:09):
This?
Speaker 6 (34:09):
Is that?
Speaker 2 (34:09):
But you have to remember whether he's speaking the way
that you want him to speak or making the eye
movements like that, doesn't none of that matters, Like you know,
like you said, there's no concrete evidence. But what what
we do have to remember we have to have some
compassion for what the family has gone through.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
You know.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
Well, we're near the end of the show today, and
that means it's time for our Emua, our final message
of hope and healing. We may never find out what
happened to John Bennet or who killed her. So it's
impossible to find any mua in the case like this,
almost impossible, almost impossible, where a young girl was taken
(34:58):
before she could even blossom, and too the woman she
was meant to be.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
But we always have to find the light in the darkness,
and we will do that here.
Speaker 4 (35:09):
Our emua today is about.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
The innocence of the cakey and Kiki and Hawaiian means child.
Speaker 4 (35:16):
So our emoa is dedicated to the innocence of children.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
Yes, and especially to the children like John Bennet who
were robbed of their innocence. And I'll just leave you
with this thought. Let children be children. Onward and upward,
Emoa Emoa.
Speaker 4 (35:45):
That's our show for today.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
If you want to reach out and share a thought
about today's discussion, please find us on social media at
Facing Evil Pod or email us at Facingevil Pod at
tenderfoot dot tv until next time.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV.
The show is hosted by Russia Pacquerero and Avett Gentile.
Matt Frederick and Alex Williams, our executive producers on behalf
of iHeartRadio with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk. Donald
Albright In Payne Lindsay our executive producers on behalf of
(36:48):
Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Claudia Dafrico.
Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on
social media or email us at facingevilpod at tenderfoot dot tv.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV, visit the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
(37:13):
favorite shows
You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and
Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast
are solely those of the individuals participating in the show
and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV.
This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable
for everyone. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hi, everyone, welcome back. This is Facing Evil from Tenderfoot
TV and iHeartRadio. We are your host. I am Evech
and Telay.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
And I'm Rascha Pecerrero. So welcome back to our two
part episode on the murder of John Benny Ramsey. So
this is part two, so please make sure that you
listened to last week's episode if you want to be
completely caught up, because there is a lot on this case.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
And since this is part two, we're just gonna dive
right back in. So here is a quick refresher. Okay.
On our last episode, we talked about the Ramsey family
and how their daughter John Bennet, was active in the
child beauty pageant scene. We talked about my experience in
the pageant scene as well. So then we went through
a detailed account of the night she was killed, about
(01:16):
how there was a strange handwritten ransom note left behind.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Yeah, and we also talked about how John Benet how
she actually was killed, and then we discussed the fallout
as her parents, John and Patsy became prime suspects in
her murder, despite appearing on television multiple times to plead
their innocence and push the idea that the killer was
actually an intruder.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Lastly, we ended with the announcement of the special Grand
Jury in nineteen ninety eight, where witness accounts would be
heard and new evidence revealed. So today we're going to
talk about what happened at the grand jury. We're also
going to discuss some of the odd discrepancies in this case,
and finally we'll explore some common theories as to what
(02:02):
actually happened. So Trevor start us off. What happened at
the grand jury.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
So the grand jury officially began on September fifteenth of
nineteen ninety eight, and it was initiated by Special Prosecutor
Michael Caine. So, according to the prosecution team, the goal
of this whole grand jury was to consider inditing the Ramses,
John and Patsy for charges related to the murder. So
(02:30):
many people have actually noted how Cain called witnesses to
the stand specifically to point the finger or express blame
towards the Ramsey family. One of those people was Detective
Linda Art who we've talked about a bunch. She was
one of the first people on the scene who didn't
do a fantastic job of cordoning off the crime scene. However,
(02:54):
Detective Arn't was very publicly suspicious of the Ramses. She
has some thoughts about how the Ramseys behaved that was
potentially condemning them or making it seem like they were
hiding something. So Cain, the prosecutor, also summoned to the
stand a handwriting expert who believed that Patsy forged the
(03:17):
ransom note that was found in the house on those stairs.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
So on October thirteenth, forensic evidence, including DNA, hair fibers,
and handwriting was all heard by the grand jury, but
nothing so far as really matching up or pointing in
any direction. And on December third of nineteen ninety eight,
investigators even asked for more DNA samples from all of
the extended Ramsey family.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Right and supposedly the goal was to rule out the
family members that's why they told them they were doing this.
We just want to make sure your DNA doesn't match
that sort of thing. So, on May nineteenth of nineteen
ninety nine, John Benaye's brother Burke Is officially ruled out
as a suspect in his sister's murder, and then, finally,
almost after thirteen months of deliberation, the grand jury adjourned
(04:05):
on October thirteenth of nineteen ninety nine.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
The result, though, was, as I could say, a bit
anti climactic, because the Boulder County District Attorney, Alex Hunter,
ultimately decided not to prosecute the Ramses. He said that
they did not have enough evidence to prosecute anyone at all.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Like, huh right, Yeah, And although the grand jury ended
without any real conclusions, the investigation was still ongoing. So
and so you might think it would have been kind
of smart for the Ramses to maybe keep their head down,
stay out of the spotlight.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
But no.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
In fact, on March seventeenth of two thousand, John and
Patsy actually published a book called the Death of Innocence.
It was all about John Benet's murder and how it
impacted them after it release. They were actually sued for
defamation by two individuals initially named by the Bolder police
(05:07):
as suspects, but those cases, I guess were later dropped.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Yeah, and then you have to remember that this entire time,
Patsy was still battling cancer and in the last episode
we mentioned how she was diagnosed in nineteen ninety three
with ovarian cancer. And sadly, I mean, it came back
on June twenty fourth of two thousand and six and
Patsy Ramsey she ultimately died from the cancer and she
(05:36):
was laid to rest next to John Benay in Marietta, Georgia.
So can you imagine John now has his older daughter Elizabeth,
he has his younger daughter, John Benay, and now his
wife that are gone.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
Yeah, sad, so sad.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Well, later that year, something kind of weird happened. Strange
suspect came forward. On August sixteenth of two thousand and six,
a person from Georgia named Alexis Valerin Reich, formerly known
as John Mark Carr, was arrested in Thailand. So, just
as a quick disclaimer, Reich is a transwoman. But at
(06:16):
the time of this incident that all of this was
going down, they were presenting as a man. So Reich
was a former school teacher that had moved to Thailand
supposedly to avoid being charged with possession of child pornography
in the United States. And apparently Reich had made a
bizarre confession where she claimed she was in fact John
(06:39):
Benet's killer and described the strangulation in very graphic, very
sexual detail. So, according to NBC, she told reporters, quote,
I was with John Benay when she died. Her death
was an accident end quote. And then when asked if
she was innocent of the crime, Reike said no. However,
(07:00):
it was very quickly discovered that the confession was entirely false.
DNA tests ruled Reich out almost immediately, and then Reike's
family actually provided very strong evidence that Reike was with
them in Georgia at the time of John Benney's murder
in Colorado, so like thousands of miles away. So I
(07:22):
don't know what happened here. I guess this was just
a person who was very obsessed with the case, maybe
wanted some time in the spotlight, or.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Mentally not well or yeah, well, definitely, we know that
has to be one of the main factors, right or
somebody trying to take credit for a murder right and
describing it in graphic detail like it's super super disturbing. Finally,
(07:52):
in July of two thousand and eight, the Ramsey family
members are officially cleared as suspects in John Benney's murder
thanks DNA testing. And I didn't know that fact until
I was doing research for this podcast, Like the DA
even apologized to the entire Ramsey family, And that was
all the way back in two thousand and eight, and
we're in twenty twenty two right now. In that same report,
(08:14):
police said that they had actually identified some third parties
DNA on John Benny's actual panties and if they could
actually match that DNA, that would be incredibly strong evidence.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
But they have yet to do that.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
That was again, all the way back in two thousand
and eight, and sadly that more or less concludes the
official investigation of the murder of John Benny Ramsey.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Yeah, but there's I mean, there's still a ton more
to discuss here, because, like we said, people online have
absolutely broken this case down like bit by bit by
peace by piece, I mean, and there are tons of
theories and discrepancies that change everything and it's constantly, right,
(09:05):
constantly change.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Started in those chat rooms back in the nineties, right,
like Trevor Sacly.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yeah, So buckle up, y'all. This case is about to
get wild.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
And we will dig into all of that right after
we take a quick break.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
So this case is full of wild discrepancies, things that
absolutely do not add up, and that has led to
a huge number of theories and suspects. Let's start with
the discrepancies first. That nine to one one call, the
first call to the police placed by Patsy Ramsey on
the morning of December twenty sixth, has become a big
(09:46):
point of contention. The nine to one one operator has
actually said that Patsy's tone at the time seemed rehearsed,
and some believe that her panic seemed staged. There's also
the weird issue with Burke and the phone call and
hearing Burke in the background, because John and Patsy actually
claimed that he was still asleep, so why would we
be hearing Burke's voice on that enhanced nine one one call?
Speaker 4 (10:10):
And Burke being awake points to.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
The possibility that he was actually more involved in the
situation than the family had claimed, and honestly, you know,
in my opinion, I think all these years that's what
I thought had happened. I personally thought that maybe Burke
had accidentally killed his sister and the parents were desperately
trying to protect him.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Okay, So next up is that famous ransom note. You
do remember it, right? It was found on the stairs
that morning, and many believe that there was something fishy there.
I mean, first of all, as we know, it was
written on paper from Patsy's personal stationery and with a
pin from inside the Ramsays home. And it was also
(10:54):
filled with a ton of strange language choices that can
I just say no by he really understands what the
hell it means.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yeah, and for context, I will read a few choice
excerpts that I pulled. Here's the first one. Quote listen
carefully with an exclamation mark. We are a group of
individuals that represent a small foreign faction. We in redacted
respect your business, but not the country that serves it.
End quote, which kind of I guess implies that this
(11:25):
is some sort of like foreign terrorist group.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
Oh, okay, share, I'm not sure.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Here's another one quote, don't try to grow a brain, John,
You are not the only fat cat around. So don't
think that killing will be difficult. Don't underestimate us, John,
use that good Southern common sense of yours. It is
up to you now, John end quote. So again, this
is weird. It's like somehow they're implying that they have
(11:53):
some agenda, you know, that's like about the country, but
then they somehow also know John personally and getting that
detail away. To me, this feels fake, is the only
thing I'll say about this. Well, I know we're going
to talk about some of the popular theories in a minute,
but my main takeaway reading this note is this all
feels like inconsistent and made up by somebody.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
This is my thought, right.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
It's also suspicious that the ransom amount that they demanded
was one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars, which is the
exact amount that John had just recently received for his
Christmas bonus. And since John Binney was sadly most likely
dead by the time that this ransom note was written,
the whole thing makes it look like the parents were
(12:41):
involved in the murder and they were just attempting to write,
like Trevor said, a fake ransom letter to divert attention
away from themselves. So yes, I think that that's plausible,
especially when you realize that the ransom was never really
brought up, like.
Speaker 4 (12:57):
While they were searching for Jumpine. No, they don't even
talk about it.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
And maybe it's because one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars
isn't that much money to them. I mean, I don't know,
but John never bothered to talk about the money, addressed
it in any way, or even talk about these kidnappers.
It was almost completely ignored and dropped.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Yeah. I mean my instinct if like I had learned that,
you know, my child or loved one had been kidnapped
by somebody and was holding them ransom, would be to
like communicate with them, like get them back, you know,
but that like has never brought up. Instead, they're like, well,
we got to search the house for John Benet, right right, right?
If they know she's in the house somehow that like
she hasn't been kidnapped somewhere else.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
Right yeah right?
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Yeah, Because see when you think about that, like the
first thing would come to mind is get the money, right,
go get the money that they asked for.
Speaker 4 (13:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Okay, so there's so many weird things, but I promise
this is the last one, but it's not. As we know,
there was some crime scene contamination when they found John Benet.
We of course have no idea whether that was intentional
or not, but any possible evidence we could have gotten
(14:06):
from the house on that particular day or the body,
we know it was ruined after the cops arrived. So Trevor,
please remind us of what happened.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Yeah, so, pretty much from the moment that cops walk
into the house, a number of things go wrong. One
of those is that guests arrive at the Ramsey house.
You remember fleet White and his wife arrived shortly thereafter,
and police let them in. So that was a failure
to cordon off the crime scene. They just were letting
(14:39):
people kind of come, which is bad. And then of
course they allowed the family members to search the house
with them, right, so they assigned John and fleet White
the task of searching the house and touching things and
looking for the body. And the result of this is
that John finds the body. Even though police couldn't find
(15:02):
the body, he picks it up, so he touches the body,
he rips off the duct tape. Police never even investigate
the spot where her body is found or if they
investigate it, they don't investigate it in the way it
was when she was like found dead.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Does that makes sense?
Speaker 4 (15:15):
Yeah, yes, it was moved.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
We have no idea what that crime scene actually even
looked like because John messed with it and we just
kind of took his word for it. So finally they
let Patsy also touched the body when she was brought
into the living room, and so maybe we could have
learned that Patsy's fingerprints or DNA were on John Benny's
body before that point, in which case that would have
(15:39):
told us something. But because you know, we know that
she touched her when she was grieving, supposedly, you know,
it's impossible to identify whether that DNA or fingerprints were
from that, you know, occasion or from a different occasion
from before when the police arrived. So again we have nothing.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Yeah, we yeah, exactly, we have nothing. I mean, and
I just go back to that first police officer, Linda
Aren't like she let them just like you said, you know,
go look for the body. Like that just doesn't sit
right with me.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
So with all of that in mind, in the contaminated
crime scene, let's talk about the different theories that are
floating around, because as we have discussed, there are many
and they're a little wild. But of course one that
we do need to talk about, which like y'vett originally thought,
you know, that Patsy was the killer. So a lot
(16:32):
of people believe that it was John Benay's mom. According
to Rolling Stone, some believe that, while you know, cleaning
up one of John Benet's bed wedding incidents, that Patsy
got crazy, angry and slammed John Benet's little head against
the side of some hard, blunt surface, like maybe a
bathtub or the bed frame. So another thing to support
(16:55):
the idea of Patsy killing John Benet was that she
was at least partially killed by a garrot, which is
like a wire used for strangulation, and that handle was
determined to have been made from one of Patsy's paintbrushes.
So the last thing is that the ransom note again
was written on Patsy's stationary, and that initially her handwriting
(17:18):
was not ruled out when they were comparing it with
the note. So those are kind of the few big
things that point to Patsy being being the killer.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Yeah, I mean, and again, I go back to I
thought from the very beginning, like that was my first impression,
is that Patsy was this obsessed, you know, pageant mom
who you know, or maybe her daughter wasn't performing the
way that she wanted her to perform. I don't know.
And then watching Patsy on television, like they're just she
(17:47):
didn't seem like she was all there, So I thought, Okay,
well that's plausible she could possibly have flipped out and
done this. I don't know, what do you guys think?
Speaker 1 (17:57):
It seems like a bit of a weird horror story situation, right,
like this obsessed mom like taking her you know, anger
out on her daughter and killing her. It reminds me
of a movie by a Sotoshi Cone called Perfect Blue.
Have you've ever seen that? So? Perfect Blue is about
a pop star musician in Japan. It's an animated film,
(18:21):
and the whole idea is that as a pop star
with a lot of visibility and like fame, she has
like all these like kind of like creepy stalkers who
and so the movie like is making you think that,
you know, they are these creepy stalker people had to
like kill her or harm her in some way, and
then you realize at the end, like the person who's
most trying to harm her, her mom, is like her,
not her mom, but her agent, who is also like an.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
Order like close person close to her.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Yeah, it was kind of like the story of Selena. Also, yeah,
if you know about that, right, it's like this other
woman who's older, who is like very envious, ended up
being like the most danger.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
To her, right, Yeah, that's true in pop movies like Bodyguard,
right when Whitney Houston is this famous superstar, remember, and
then the killer ends up being her sister, the one
who's sending the ransom notes and stuff like that.
Speaker 4 (19:12):
So yeah, I can't imagine that it's Patsy.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
I mean, like, well, of course, you know, may she
rest in peace, says she's not alive to defend herself.
But I can't see a mother harming a child. But
you know, sadly, we do know that it happens.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
But well, there are more theories, so yeah, oh, let's more.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Sorry, Okay, there's this theory. So the dad, John Ramsey,
was responsible. So this is the other theory, right, and
this is because, as we said earlier, he was the
one who found the body before the investigators did. And
the thing about this is nobody saw him find the body.
(19:54):
He just said that he found her and he brought
her upstairs. And like you said earlier, right, Trevor, he
took the duct tape off of her mouth as well,
So all that evidence is gone because he's already touched it, right.
So the theory is maybe he already knew where John
Bennet was and the whole discovery was just an act.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Very possible. I mean, the police officer wasn't able to
find them. They spent hours searching and never found her.
So the fact that he John was able to find
her so quickly is certainly suspicious.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
Yeah again, Devil's Advocate. It was a fifteen room house
and really large too, So maybe he just got lucky.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
I don't know if you get lucky in your own house.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
But okay, yeah, yeah, I mean there was one other
piece of I guess you can call it evidence that
pointed to John. Really, this is just a theory that
people have talked about online. So if you remember, John
Benay was found with vaginal ligatures, so many people put
forth this idea that John was you know, somehow sexually
(21:05):
abusing John Benney his daughter and that that's where that
came from, and that like maybe this was a night
where he was like creeping into his daughter's room to
do this and something went wrong and he killed her. Yeah,
it's a theory online, right, that one I'm skeptical of
and certainly don't want to ever accuse anyone of that
without any proof. And that's the thing, there was no
real proof of this theory. The family vehemently denied it,
(21:29):
and they even said publicly, quote, there is no history
of sexual assault. A person doesn't just go throughout their
lives as a normal human being and then one night
turn into a monster, slaughter their daughter, go to bed,
get up and act normal from there on. That doesn't
happen end quote. And I mean, I don't know if
(21:49):
that actually did happen. That's horrible, but it sounds really
weird to me. I mean, I think there's some truth
to that quote, right, Like, there's really no history of
this and there's nothing else to bet.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
Yeah, and normally abusers have a pattern and a history
and a Yeah, it doesn't just come out of nowhere
and then go away again.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Yeah, and he was for some reason for me, he
was not at the top of my list.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
Yeah, and he's very active today in talking about John Benney,
like he goes to crime con he I believe, he's written,
you know, other books and he's he just seems so
authentic and so real and so devastated by everything that's
happened to his family. And sadly, no matter what happens,
(22:38):
people are always going to think that possibly that he
or Patsy did it.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Well, that's the thing. And you know, I love Elizabeth
Vargas and there's a special that she did and it's
called Hunting John Benney's Killer. And there's many things that
they talk about in this, but one of the things
that was that stood out to me is John Ramsey
said that if they did find the killer, right all
(23:03):
these years later, they found the DNA of who killed
John Beney, still twenty percent of society would still put
the blame on the Ramsey family.
Speaker 4 (23:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
So another huge theory out there is that her brother Burke,
somehow actually did the killing. And that's you know what
I had thought for a long time. It felt like
the parents were covering up something and maybe they were
trying to protect their son. You know, investigators discovered what
they called a perfectly rectangular defect in John Beney's head.
(23:39):
They suspected that it came from a blow from a
big flashlight, which can actually be seen in a photo
that was on the kitchen counter in the crime scene photos.
So supposedly the flashlight fit the eight and a half
inch gash in her skull to perfection, but no evidence
of either John Benet or Burke were actually found on
(24:00):
the flashlight.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
So yeah, there was also something else that pointed to Burke,
if you remember, John Benay also had a couple of
injuries on her back that looked like maybe.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
Cuts or lacerations.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Yeah. Yeah, So investigators initially thought they were from like
a stun gun, like some sort of home in trader
or something, or somebody like hit her with a stun gun,
but they later discovered that they the marks were consistent
with the edges of one of Burke's toy train tracks,
so police thought Burke used them to like nudge or
(24:31):
poke his sister's unconscious body for a response, like after
some incident had happened. Yeah, the question of whether or
not Burke did it to me is the only big
plausible one out of the three of the parents. I
don't want to like make any false accusations, but if
we're just purely looking at the facts, I think, like
(24:51):
you said, the parents seemed to be lying for a
reason to cover up something going on this night. We
don't know what, but it feels like if they were
trying to get themselves out of the situation, there are
things they would have done differently. It very much felt
like they were covering up for somebody else, and the
only other person there was Burke. And remember, like Burke
(25:12):
was heard in the background of that nine one one call,
so he was clearly awake and involved in some capacity
that they are not telling us about. So it feels
like they are lying for Burke many times.
Speaker 4 (25:23):
Right.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
So, Okay, there's one more theory that we need to
talk about, and this is really the one that's most
prominent today. But we have to take another break, so
we'll talk about that theory when we come back.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Okay, So, the last big theory is the intruder theory.
So CBS would report that there were thirty eight registered
sex offenders in a two mile radius of the Ramsays home,
and that there were over a hundred burglaries in their
namemborhood in the months before the murder. So this is
(26:04):
another theory. You have thirty eight sex offenders. That's a
huge number, and especially in you know, this is a
money area.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Yeah, and this is the theory that was being pushed
by the Ramsey parents themselves, like on TV, like, we
live in a dangerous area and some wacko did this
to our daughter. And this is now essentially where the
investigation stands because it's been ongoing. So the investigation currently
believes that it was in fact two intruders. They think
(26:37):
this because there were actually two distinct bootprints in the
room where John Bennie was found, the wine cellar that
they later discovered. There was also a report of a
ban that was at some point squatting outside the Ramsey house.
They had two accounts of this. One was the night
before she was murdered and then also the day after.
So multiple times they're seeing this van, which makes people
(27:00):
think there's somebody stalking Jump and at I think there's
a lot of a lot of evidence to back this up. Frankly,
I mean, this is kind of what we've been alluding
to this whole episode or two two episodes, which is
that you know, Jean Benet had a very public profile, yep,
and you know there are a lot of creepers out there.
Whoever the creepy dude was on the float that night,
(27:22):
you know, the night before or a couple nights before
she went missing.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
I mean for me, like again, I started with Patsy,
then I thought it was Burt. But what seems the
most plausible for me is an intruder, but an intruder
that knew their comings and goings. Yes, Like I feel
like somebody was watching them and got into the house
(27:49):
and did this.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Yeah, I mean, if you remember too, that actually makes
sense because one of the first suspects they looked at,
and I mentioned this on part one was Bill McReynolds,
who was the guy who played Santa Claus that night
at the holiday party.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
I don't they always the creepers, the ones that play
Santa or clowns.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Don't say that about Santa Russia.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
Yeah, I'm sorry, Santa impersonators, nothing personal, but you're kind
of creepy.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
I've always thought Santa's were creepy. I'm sorry. I don't
even anyhow he would actually fit that profile really well, right,
because he knew them. He was like a neighbor, so
he knew their comings and goings. However, he was officially
dismissed as a suspect eventually, So.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Right, right, it could have been like you know, John
Bennet was in the pageant scene. She was, you know,
on this flow. It could have been another pageant father
who was obsessed with young girls. I mean, I just
really think that it was somebody other than one of
the family members.
Speaker 4 (28:49):
Yeah, I think so too.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Yeah, it was just I mean a couple of days
earlier that she had one little Miss Christmas pageant in Denver,
so like there was a lot of like eyes on
her around that time. I think one thing that backs
up this idea too is the fact that she was
clearly sexually assaulted in some way. Yeah, so in this theory,
it would mean that one of these creepy dudes had
(29:12):
desires to sexually harm this child, and so that would
make sense of the trauma they found on her body.
Speaker 5 (29:19):
Yeah, yeah, it's whoever did it was clearly a pedophile, absolutely,
And I just have to say, you know, while we're
talking about you know, the whole pageantry, like a lot
of people have really criticized, you know, Patsy for pushing
John Bennet into it.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
And you know, there's definitely something about that, right, because
trying to make your child, you know, compete like in
an industry that she was once in, right by dressing
her up and doing the heavy makeup in the dresses,
like she's trying to live vicariously through her daughter, right,
(30:00):
But at the same time, like we have to remember
she's five years old.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Yeah, I mean there's some danger to like making your
child an object of sex appeal for sure.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Yeah, you know, I think it kind of makes her
a target in a really messed up way. And I
hate to say it that way, but you know, this
just gets I think, into a philosophical conversation about whether
or not you believe in child beauty pageants should be
a thing or not, like if they are dangerous. And
I think that's probably where a lot of that criticism
of Patsy comes from, not saying she did it herself,
(30:34):
but that indirectly she like set way up to be
stocked and eventually killed.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
Right, Yeah, So I do want to point something out, right,
So once again, the media was absolutely relentless in this
case and very similar to the cases of Lacy Peterson
and Matthew Shepard. This case was on every TV station,
every magazine. It was in the news cycle for literal years,
(31:03):
and people were obsessed and I was one of them.
Speaker 4 (31:06):
Me too.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
Yeah, I had a really hard time reading the details,
but I wanted to and I want to know who
killed John Benny Ramsey. But like, it just it makes
me sad, like especially like having a voice, and we're
all having this discussion, right It's like we could be
having this discussion at Yvette's you know house in San Francisco,
and no one else would be hearing it, but the
world is hearing it. So whether that's good or bad,
(31:31):
it definitely can negatively impact the Ramsey family. And you know,
we're not the only ones talking about the John Benney
murder case, and we have to think about it. Right,
The Ramses were completely thrown into the spotlight when their
little girl was murdered, and I can only imagine what
(31:51):
they went through, what Burke went through, and John and Patsy,
like everyone in the Ramsey family, and Burke, you know,
has since led a very private life, with the exception
of the fact that he was actually interviewed by Yvette.
Speaker 4 (32:10):
Our friend doctor Phil.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
Yep, doctor Phil, Yep.
Speaker 4 (32:14):
We love our doctor Phil.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
So let's listen to a clip of Burke being interviewed
by doctor Phil.
Speaker 6 (32:20):
Now, I remember the casket is small and her eyes
were closed. I think one of her eyes was a
little bit like droopy or something. I thought that was weird.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
How did you feel seeing her?
Speaker 6 (32:32):
A lot of sadness. I don't think I really fully
grasped like after this, I won't see her again.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
So when you listen to Burke, there's clearly a lot
of pain there because at nine years old, he went
through horrific trauma. And of course I know that people
want to know the truth. But I can only imagine
that this ruined Burke's life, and I truly, truly, truly
(33:03):
believe that we should do our best to give him
and the entire Ramsey family, you know, some some peace, greed.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Yeah, I think you know, whatever the truth is, you know,
Burke went through something horrible. Yeah, you know, as far
as the facts tell us, you know, both he and
his parents are not responsible for this murder, so until
proven otherwise, Like, people need to stop harassing Burke, Yeah,
people need to stop accusing him of things and unless
there's something concrete, yeah, exactly, you know, and either way,
(33:34):
he was just a kid. He was. Even if something
did happen, it wouldn't have been intentional.
Speaker 4 (33:38):
Yeah, right.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
I just hope he's had the opportunity to go through
like PTSD and trauma therapy and it can really help.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
We all know that, you know, generational trauma is a
real thing. So and you can imagine him being nine
years old and having to deal with this his whole life.
Speaker 6 (33:57):
Right.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
So some people, you know, when they saw that clip
of him on Doctor Phil, you know, everybody is trying
to analyze like, Okay, well, is he did he do it?
Is he right in the head?
Speaker 6 (34:08):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (34:09):
This?
Speaker 6 (34:09):
Is that?
Speaker 2 (34:09):
But you have to remember whether he's speaking the way
that you want him to speak or making the eye
movements like that, doesn't none of that matters, Like you know,
like you said, there's no concrete evidence. But what what
we do have to remember we have to have some
compassion for what the family has gone through.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
You know.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
Well, we're near the end of the show today, and
that means it's time for our Emua, our final message
of hope and healing. We may never find out what
happened to John Bennet or who killed her. So it's
impossible to find any mua in the case like this,
almost impossible, almost impossible, where a young girl was taken
(34:58):
before she could even blossom, and too the woman she
was meant to be.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
But we always have to find the light in the darkness,
and we will do that here.
Speaker 4 (35:09):
Our emua today is about.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
The innocence of the cakey and Kiki and Hawaiian means child.
Speaker 4 (35:16):
So our emoa is dedicated to the innocence of children.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
Yes, and especially to the children like John Bennet who
were robbed of their innocence. And I'll just leave you
with this thought. Let children be children. Onward and upward,
Emoa Emoa.
Speaker 4 (35:45):
That's our show for today.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
If you want to reach out and share a thought
about today's discussion, please find us on social media at
Facing Evil Pod or email us at Facingevil Pod at
tenderfoot dot tv until next time.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV.
The show is hosted by Russia Pacquerero and Avett Gentile.
Matt Frederick and Alex Williams, our executive producers on behalf
of iHeartRadio with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk. Donald
Albright In Payne Lindsay our executive producers on behalf of
(36:48):
Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Claudia Dafrico.
Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on
social media or email us at facingevilpod at tenderfoot dot tv.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV, visit the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
(37:13):
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