July 28, 2022 • 42 mins
Tina Fontaine was a young indigenous girl from Manitoba, Canada. Rasha & Yvette look at how her tumultuous life eventually led to her eventual murder in 2014.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and
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are solely those of the individuals participating in the show
and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or tenderfoot TV.
This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable
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Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hello, everyone, welcome back to our new podcast, Facing Evil
from Tenderfoot TV and iHeartRadio. We are your hosts. I'm
Roscha Pecuerero.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
And I'm Evet Gentila, And.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Of course we know that we're sisters, right And apparently
I like to do everything that my big sister does.
And my big sister fell a few couple months ago,
right before she had to do the New York City
half marathon.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
And I don't fall. I'm not the club. And I'm
just putting that out there.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Alexy One and Trevor, our beautiful producer. I need to
tell you what I did this week. I fell down.
I fell down the stairs. Okay, well, I fell down
the stair. I missed you.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Found you, fell down one one step.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
And I broke my big right toe because I want
to be like my big sister and yeah, so if
you hear me wincing while we're talking about the case today,
that is why, Trevor.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
So.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
But the funny thing about that is you never you
never said to me, you said I fell down the stairs.
And it wasn't until hours later that Sanna, her wife,
is on the other line, laughing hysterically saying, no, she
she fell down a step.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
My foot got stuck in my very large pant leg
and I skipped a step and basically I planted into
the doordown with my toe.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah, how's your pain level?
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Seven out of ten? So you know, we might need
to have pain relievers later, but regardless, so you know,
I mean, there might be some tears today, but it'll
be a mixture of the case that we're talking about
and my broken toe.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Yes, yes, yes, and always we are so blessed and
so lucky to have our amazing producer, Trevor Young. He
is our I like to call him our old soul. Yes,
and he is going to take us through the case today,
So Trevor, it's all yours.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
Winnipeg Police reveals stunning new details today in a disturbing
case about just where teenager Tina Fontaine was before she
disappeared for good, and about just who might have been
among the last to see her alive.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
The startling new report released today details just how support
services failed the fifteen.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Year old before her death.
Speaker 5 (02:58):
Sports national outreach.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
From the moment the body of fifteen year old Tina
Fontaine was pulled from the Red River. The case has
been high profile and politically charged.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Today we're digging into the case of Tina Fontaine, a
young girl from the indigenous community in Manitoba, Canada. At
the age of fifteen years old, she was found dead
in Winnipeg in August of twenty fourteen. Tina's life up
until her death was incredibly tough. With very little family
(03:29):
support resources and a family history of substance abuse, it
almost seemed as though Tina had very little hope for
a stable life, and during the last year of her life,
she had fallen into sex work and had been frequently
reported missing. On one of those occasions, she never came home.
On August seventeenth, twenty fourteen, her body was found in
(03:53):
the Red River. Witnesses identified one older man who they
believed was responsible since he was the life last known
person with Tina. He was charged, but was eventually acquitted
of the murder, and so the looming questions in this
case are who killed Tina, Why wasn't she getting the
support she needed? And how is her story indicative of
(04:15):
a bigger problem an epidemic of violence against Indigenous women
across North America.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
That's so true that you say that, Trevor, because yes,
we're telling Tina's story, but really we're telling the stories
of all of the missing and murdered Indigenous women and
girls across Canada and the US. I had no idea
how big of a problem this really was until we
dove into Tina.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Right, And that's why we really want to tell this story.
It's a very important story to tell because when we
say an epidemic, I mean the numbers are staggering, particularly
in the Winnipeg area.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
I know.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
I found that it was eighteen point seven percent of
the women and children were living in poverty, So that
was about roughly thirty thousand children and women.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Yeah, I mean, in particular, the issue of violence against
Native women is particularly bad. I was looking at some
research from the Native Women's Association of Canada and they
found that Native or Aboriginal women fifteen years or older
were actually three and a half times more likely to
experience violence than non Aboriginal women. And then fifty four
(05:34):
percent of those Aboriginal women reported severe forms of family
violence versus only thirty seven percent of non Aboriginal women.
That's not a great number either, but the difference there
is huge, right, almost twenty percent stagg.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
AG numbers, I know. And there's also from the same organization,
they reported that Indigenous women in the Canada's sex trade.
I mean, get this, one hundred and seventy one women
were killed between nineteen ninety one and two thousand and four. Guys,
that is about forty five percent of those cases. I
(06:11):
mean they're still unsolved. That's that's not terrific.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Yeah, I mean that's a I guess a huge theme
for this case, right is you know, these things happen.
That's one piece of it. But then another piece of
it is that they're not given the same kind of attention.
You know that similar cases for non native or white women.
Get you know, we've known about this as a cultural
thing for some time now. You know, everybody of course
is talking about Gabby Potito case and why that was
(06:37):
getting so much attention when there are hundreds thousands of
Aboriginal and Native women who go missing or are murdered
every year, and they don't get the same kind of
attention or investigations. So hopefully by talking about this, we
can start to draw more attention towards those cases and
you know, maybe less away from the other side, or
(06:57):
you know, at least find some equality there.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Equality. That's that's the word.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
That is the word, and that is why we do
this Russia right exactly for this reason, so we can
share their stories and people will be aware that this
is happening and not you know, keep their blinders on.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
I have to say too, like, first of all, I
had no idea that the Center for Disease Control in
the US. I mean, I know it's called the CDC
because I think all of us have become very familiar
with the CDC during this coronavirus pandemic. But the CDC
came out with a report that murder is the third
leading cause of death among American, Indian and Alaska Native
(07:39):
women and that rates of violence on reservations can be
up to ten times higher than the national average. So
they need our help. These women and girls need us
to talk about them and not just the Gabby Potitos
of the world. Absolutely, Absolutely, Tina was more than just
(08:01):
a statistics. She was born into a situation familiar to
many Indigenous families. Trevor, what do we know about her
parents and her upbringing?
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Yeah, it's interesting. I think Tina's family history is a
pretty distressing example of something that happens through a lot
of Indigenous families. So first I'll tell you about Tina's
father and grandfather. Her dad was a guy named Eugene Fontaine,
and he was a member of the sac King First
(08:32):
Nation in Manitoba. If I'm saying that correctly, I apologize
if I'm not. And then his father, Tina's grandfather, was
actually the survivor of a residential school. Do you guys
know about residential schools?
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Well, I did some research on them, and I do
know that residential schools were created in the late eighteen
hundreds to separate Indigenous children from their parents and essentially
strip them of their identities. And it reminded me so
much of of what the Christian missionaries did in Hawaii,
you know, trying to westernize everything. But yeah, I've heard
(09:07):
horror stories.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
That's what they were, like supposed to be is these
kind of like schools to teach them on the ways
of proper a Western civilization. These indigenous communities primarily children,
but they ended up being more like internment camps, and
the conditions were horrible. Many children died, you know. Oftentimes
they were put up in these little shacks and the coldest,
most desolate places in Canada. So really horrible and so sad,
(09:32):
I know. And those sorts of experiences took a toll
on that generation for sure, as you can imagine. So
as a result, Eugene's father, this being Tina's grandfather, ended
up being an alcoholic, and he ended up being a
very abusive alcoholic, and so this kind of created a
domino effect of trauma in their family. So Eugene Tina's
(09:55):
dad eventually left home at twelve years old, which is
crazy because he could deal with his alcoholic, abusive father,
and he moved to Winnipeg. And so obviously this sort
of chaotic upbringing was hard on him, and he too
developed an alcohol addiction. And so then there's Tina's mother.
(10:15):
So Tina's mother was named Valentina Duck. She also went
by Tina, and she belonged to the blood vein First Nation,
which is also in Manitoba. She also suffered a number
of traumatic events throughout her childhood, including sexual exploitation. She
was removed from her family by the CFS, which is
Child and Family Services at the age of ten. She
(10:35):
spent a number of years being moved around before she
met Eugene when she was just twelve years old, and
by this point, I guess he was twenty three or so.
So she became pregnant with their first child, which would
have been Tina's older sibling, in nineteen ninety four, which
would have made her fourteen. So on January first, nineteen
ninety nine, at the age of seventeen, Valentina gave birth
(10:58):
to Tina Fontaine who were talking about today. So Tina's
father is twenty eight at this point, and the parents' relationship,
as you can imagine, is very unstable, marked with substance abuse, violence,
you name it. And as a result, poor Tina was
left with her maternal grandmother for pretty much most of
the time.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
That's just crazy, right to think about this little child,
I mean, and things just get tougher for Tina from
that point over, I mean, over the next four years,
Tina dealt with a ton I mean a ton of
instability as she was placed in and out of foster care.
I mean, and she was moved between her mother, her grandmother.
(11:43):
And this is what kills me too, is like children
are placed in these hotels by Child and Family Services?
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Why are children just like her mom?
Speaker 5 (11:53):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (11:53):
But why are they put in these hotels? I can't
I don't comprehend that.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
I guess that's all they can do. I mean it's
the only kind of you know, neutral, yeah, place with
a bed, right, you know, and all the amenities that
you need to survive.
Speaker 5 (12:07):
I know.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
But it's like you you think about it, and it's like,
but they can still come and go and leave there easily.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
You know.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
There's like nobody really seriously monitoring them.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Yeah, and that does become a problem that way.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Yeah, and for Tina, I mean, her life just from
that point on got unbelievably worse. Tina's father, who you
were speaking of, you know earlier, Trevor, he got into
a fight and from what I understand, it was over money,
and he died from his injuries. I mean, I can
only imagine how Tina took this news. And even though
(12:44):
she didn't live with her father, like she still was
extremely close to him and was devastated by his murder,
and of course, like her family history, she became withdrawn
and pressed, and she started using marijuana and doing all
kinds of things right just to cope with the loss
(13:07):
self medicating right of her dad, you know. And on
top of that, she doesn't have her mother. Her mother
is in and out of the picture. Now your father
has been murdered.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Well, yeah, and keep in mind to you know, her
dad dies in twenty eleven. Tina herself was born in
nineteen ninety nine, so she's around twelve years old when
she starts going through this self medication process, you know,
starting to use very drugs. She's only twelve. I know,
she's only twelve years old. You know.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
I've been thinking about this a lot because I always
feel that, like you always have a choice, right to
break generational trauma or to not repeat what your parents
have done. And I can only say, like for myself,
like my dad was and is an alcoholic and a
drug addict, and I saw all of that, and I'm like,
(13:57):
I was like, there's no way in hell I'm ever
going to be anything like that. However, I do know
that I was blessed by having my sister event and
my mom, you know, because my mom and dad were
not together, thankfully, But I wish that Tina had had,
you know, that safe space, I think and she actually,
I know we're referring to her as her grandmother, but
(14:18):
biologically it was her great aunt. But I think she
was her safe space. And you know, her grandmother was
just doing the best she could to try to protect Tina.
But I can only imagine what it would have been
like without, you know, that big, strong presence in your
life to tell you right from wrong.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
But again, you know, like Trevor said, you have to remember,
she's twelve, Yeah, twelve dealing with all this. It shouldn't exactly,
it should not be it should not be her responsibility.
And like you did, say Russia, like with her her
great aunt, I think, you know, she did everything in
her means that she could do. She did all she could,
(14:59):
but there a point when you don't know what else
to do, right, So it's just it's just really sad.
It is so heartbreaking. And so two years after Tina's
father was killed, where in the last year of Tina's
life at this point, you know, she was skipping school regularly,
(15:21):
running away from home, and she was living you know
with her grandmother, you know, great aunt at the time,
since her own mother was so unstable, so her own
mom didn't even come in after you.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Know, her dad was killed. But Tina's grandmother admitted that
she didn't know how to help, and she refused help
from you know, CFS, from child Children's Family Services. And
I know that, you know, she was, like you said,
you bet, she was doing the absolute best that she could.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Right, I mean, back then, given those times, I'm sure
she was doing what she thought was best, you know,
at the time. But then in January of twenty fourteen,
this was really a turning point for Tina, and sadly
in a very bad way, because on January thirtieth, she
(16:12):
was rushed to the hospital after a suicide attempt and
she had cut her wrist. But thankfully the injuries that
she that she had were minor. But she did tell
the nurse that she was having suicidal thoughts, and according
to Tina's grandmother, the hospital and the social services didn't
(16:35):
take any action to help her. I mean, that's she's
right there, she's in the hospital, she's tried to commit
or made an attempt right to commit suicide. Get her
some she's lost her father.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Get her some therapy.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
She needs help. She needs help.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
And then by April, Tina's grandmother was so worried about
Tina's safety with everything you know, she had been doing
and going through, so she did finally reach out to
CFS for support because at this time, Tina was experimenting
heavily with drugs, she kept running away from home, and
she was connecting with adult men online.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Right, So all of this brings us to July first,
twenty fourteen, and Tina went to visit her mom in Winnipeg.
Her grandmother had agreed to let her go because the
last time she had saw her mom everything went well.
So her grandmother said, I will give you this calling
card and fifty dollars and go see your mom.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Sadly though, that was the last time her grandma would
see Tina alive. And we'll talk more about what happened
to Tina after we take a quick break.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
All right, So Tina is now fifteen and in Winnipeg,
and things just get incredibly crazy and dark from you're
on out.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Oh my god, this is okay. Let me just let
me just tell you guys about this police incident. Three
weeks later, on July seventeenth, the police were called because
Tina was on the street. She was screaming while she
was being dragged by some eighteen year old male and
(18:22):
they both were drunk. The police had already picked them up,
so they send Tina to a short term detox resource
for youth, and she tells the nurses at the detox
center that she had Okay, get this, you guys, she
had fifteen to twenty beers before the incident, and that
(18:44):
this was her boyfriend that she was with. Can I
just say, I'm fifty three and one hundred and thirty pounds.
If I was to have fifteen to twenty beers, I
would be comatose, function I would be comatose.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Yeah, And she Tina was even though she was fifteen.
Like she looked, she had a very petite frame, like
I can only imagine, so for her to drink that
much and be functioning.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
And right, she'd been doing it for a while.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Well, at the end of the day, she's a child, right,
I mean, that's the biggest thing is she's a fifteen
year old. Nobody should be drinking alcohol at that age anyways,
let alone a you know, alcohol poisoning inducing amount of it.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
But I mean, you know, this is what she grew
up seeing her mother and her father do the same thing.
So it's a cycle that's just being repeated.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Generational trauma is definitely a thing, it is.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
And speaking of her mother, obviously, she was supposed to
be with her mother at this point, and the question is,
you know, why isn't she with her mom? Where is
her mother? So, as it turns out, we now know
she was not staying with her mother really at any
point during this time. On July eighteenth, she ended up
staying in a hotel provided by Children and Family Services.
(20:02):
They actually discharged her after this, without really any plan
to support her after she got out. So the day
that Tina was released from the hotel, CFS lost track
of her. They couldn't find her. The agency contacted all
of Tina's family members, including her grandmother, her mother, and
no one knew where she was. You know, her mother
had no idea where she was, even though she was
(20:23):
supposed to be visiting with her.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
Right It's like, where was her mother?
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Yeah? And so then on July twenty second, of twenty fourteen,
Tina actually called her social worker and let her know
that she was safe somewhere, staying with a boyfriend, and
supposedly this is the same eighteen year olds who had
been dragging her a few days ago.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Her this is the this is the boyfriend, this is
that guy again. Great, great, great great great.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Okay, So no one was really sure at this point
where Tina was even sleeping at night. She was bouncing
around from different shelters. But she was actually officially reported
missing on July thirty first by the Winnipeg Police. So
when they did locate her next on August eighth, twenty fourteen,
it was an awful situation.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
This is really tough to talk about because it really
frustrates me how lost Tina was obviously getting, I mean
more and more out of control. The police pulled over
a truck early in the morning for not using proper signals,
and they find Tina, who gave them a fake name,
and I believe the name she gave them was Tessa
(21:34):
too heart. She's sitting there, physically, sitting there in the
passenger seat. The driver is drunk and he's driving on
a suspended license. The police they impound the guy's truck,
but then they let Tina go even though she was
listed as a missing person. Like, is that that that's
(21:55):
not doing your job.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
That is not doing your job, And it's totally ridiculous.
And what's even worse is that just hours later, Tino
was actually found unconscious in a back alley near the
University of Winnipeg in an area that's commonly known for
sex work. And it's really hard for me to say
(22:19):
this knowing that she was just a fifteen year old girl.
But Tino was found without clothes on from the waist down.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
But she did, I mean, she did thankfully get to
a hospital, thank god. And while she was there she
did tell her CFS worker that she was involved with
a fifty three year old man named Raymond Cormier.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
Yeah, so this is a pretty weird day, right. So
there's this incident with her getting pulled over, She's found
behind you know, this alleyway unconscious. This is all happening
on the same day, which is August eighth. Discharge from
the hospital thereafter, we do know the CFS puts her
in a hotel that night, as they tend to do,
(23:07):
but she doesn't stay. She immediately leaves and CFS again
loses track of her.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
So she again again.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Geez. Yeah, you would think after something as horrible as
being found unconscious, you know, being only halfway clothed as
a fifteen year old girl, that they would take more
efforts to like make sure she stays in the hotel room, sheep,
stays in their care. But clearly they weren't really monitoring
her very well.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
Right, and even I mean to you know, when they
take her to the hospital, like was she given a
you know, did they do a rape kit? Right? She's
Those are all questions.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
I will say too on all the news reports that
I've seen on Tina that again, her death was like
a wake up call, right, And so I have read
and I have listened to different shows, and they don't
CFS does not release children to hotels anymore. That's not
something that's a common practice in Canada, thankfully.
Speaker 5 (24:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
Yeah. And also just a little sidebar, I was reading
the Manitoba Advocate for Children and Youth and it was
giving a detailed like document on Tina's life. And those
two officers that were that pulled her over, they were
suspended and actually eventually let go.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
So something something was done.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Yeah, the incompetence in this whole case.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
Right, right, Okay, guys, so we need to talk about
Tina's friend, Katrina.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Right, Katrina, the eighteen year old who also spent time
in the CFS shelters when she was young, and was
actually a friend of Tina's, right.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
From what we understand, I mean, Katrina was also the
last person to see Tina alive. They had hung out
together earlier in the day, and they were together during
that truck incident, and they were hanging out again when
a man approached Tina about three am, right, and.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
We're talking about three am now of August ninth, So
really this is a continuation of the events that happened
on August eighth, all these things that we've been talking about, Like,
this is all within less than twenty four hours. So
according to CBC News, which covered this event, quote, Katrina
said they hung out until about three am on August ninth,
(25:31):
when a man approached them on a lease avenue and
offered to pay Fontane money to perform a sex act.
The friend said Fontane accepted the offer and told her
she would be back in about fifteen minutes. Katrina said
she followed Fontaine and the man for about half a block,
but it was too dark to see where they were going.
She would say, I don't know, just something didn't feel right.
(25:55):
I waited half an hour, and then time just kept
on passing, and that was the last anybody would hear
from or see Tina.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
And sadly, two weeks later, on August seventeenth, Tina's little
body was found in the Red River. She had been
wrapped up in plastic and a duvet comforter, and her
body had been weighed down by rocks.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
So we need to take another break real quick. But
when we come back we will talk more about the
investigation and everything that unfolded afterwards.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
The whole thing I mean is just it's so sad.
It feels like, as we've said earlier, there were so
many pivotal moments where if someone would have just intervened
or took a moment, Tina would still be with us,
She still would have had a chance.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
And I think what also feels so unfair is that
we have no idea how Tina died. We don't know
what her cause of death was. According to the Manitoba
Advocate for Children and Youth, the autopsy was inconclusive. There
wasn't evidence of any physical trauma, and the condition of
her body made it difficult to determine the cause of death.
(27:15):
Is that, Trevor, Is that more of a thing like
when a body is found in water, is it much harder?
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Well, bodies technically tend to decompose slower in water. However,
the water does affect the body in ways that make
it harder to identify or do an autopsy on properly.
You know, bodies might bloat, making it less clear if
there are certain injuries that reveal certain things. The water
might also wash away things like DNA or any other evidence.
(27:43):
So I would say bodies that have been in water
for a long time are impossibly hard to do a
proper autopsy on. So to me this makes sense, But
that just kind of adds to the tragedy of the
whole situation.
Speaker 5 (27:55):
I know.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
All that said, though, the police did have their suspect,
even if I didn't know how she died, and of
course they pointed to Raymond Cormier. If you remember, Cormier
was the person that she mentioned she had been with,
the fifty three year old man that she mentioned in
the hospital when she was being interviewed by a CFS right. So,
according to the Winnipeg Police, Cormier and Tina had both
(28:19):
stayed in the same home on the east side of
the city for how long We're not sure, but Cormier
had a long list of criminal convictions. In total, he
had something like ninety two different offenses across four different
Canadian provinces, which is crazy. So of course the police
are looking at this guy, and they do eventually arrest
him and they charge him with second degree murder. CBC
(28:43):
also reported that quote the second degree murder charge was
laid based on evidence gathered through forensic examinations, witness interviews,
and covert operations. Of course, Cormier chose to plead not guilty.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
So let's talk about the trial. It began on January
twenty ninth, twenty eighteen, and it included witness testimony from
someone named Tyrell Morrison. And from what I found is
that Tyrell was thirty years old and he basically was
drinking Buddies with Raymond, and he drank with Raymond and Tina.
(29:19):
And so Tyrell Morrison actually testified that he saw Tina
and Raymond arguing because he had sold Tina's bike frame
for drugs.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
And other witnesses testified that they saw the two of
them together. So Tina with this fifty three year old
man leading up and on August eighth, the day she
actually went missing.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Right, So as of this point, we have a lot
of witnesses kind of having them together. But in the
trial there's really no forensic evidence being presented or direct
eyewitness testimony and by a direct I mean eyewitness testimony
pointing to him and her like during the murder or
(30:03):
the killing or sometime around there. So really this case
was built around secret recordings made of Cormier by the police,
and in these recordings, he talked about finding Tina's killer,
talked about her death. According to CBC, he quote seemed
obsessed with Tina's killing, and the prosecutors in this case,
Jim Ross and Bretta Passler, pointed to these recordings as
(30:26):
his primary evidence of guilt.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
Well, ultimately, Kremier was acquitted on February twenty second, twenty eighteen.
So what do you guys think about this? Like, do
you think he did it? Do you think Katrina did it? Like?
What is your take? I Mean, I'm a little torn,
like I think it could have possibly been just a john,
(30:49):
because Katrina said that, you know, she went off with
this man at three am, and she had agreed to
do some sexual act with him, right, So it could
have just been some crazy john, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
That's the theory I'm leaning towards, is a John, Like
I don't, I don't. I can't see why Katrina would
have any kind of motive to do that. But I
think that authorities pinpointed and we're trying to get you know,
Cormier as the guilty party because that was the easy route, right,
Like when you're trying to look for a john, like
(31:24):
obviously like they're not going to use their name. I mean,
like there's there's so much more work that they have
to do. I have a feeling that it was whoever
she left with that night when Katrina last saw her.
That's my guess. What do you what are you leaning towards, Trevor?
Speaker 1 (31:42):
You know, I hesitate to really jump to a conclusion
in a case like this. I think it's another case
where a body is so decomposed, the remains so degraded
that we don't really have any evidence or concept of
like what happened or who it could have been, you know.
So the longer that a body is left out or
is decomposed, the less chance you have to like really
(32:04):
draw any clear conclusion. So I mean, in short, like
I don't know, and I've kind of accepted that I
will never know. I mean, it could have been this
Cormier fellow. But at the end of the day, I mean,
I think the way it worked out and the legal
proceeding is accurate. I mean, if all you have is
this kind of circumstantial evidence based off of these phone calls,
that's just not enough to convict that it's not enough
(32:26):
to draw conclusion in second degree murder. So I really
don't know. I don't have an answer, you know. I
think the bigger takeaway for me in this is that
we could have known, right, right, Like, if enough people
had done better, we could have had a better idea,
there could have been a better investigation and maybe things
would be more clear. So that's what I'm most mad about,
(32:48):
I think when I hear about this case.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
So after Cormier, you know, is acquitted, the Manitoba Indigenous
leaders put out a statement that criticized the government for
what had happened to Tina and I am going to
pronounce this name with all of the respect that I
have in my soul. So if I mispronounced it, I
(33:12):
am so sorry. But I am definitely trying. But this
is a very important quote and it comes from the
Key Watsonawi Okimakanak Grand Chief Shila North, and Sheila said,
we as a nation need to do better for our
young people. We've all failed her.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
That is such a powerful statement, I mean, and that
resonates so deep, I'm sure to all of us if
we think about it, the CFS, the police, her parents,
I mean, there were so many times that Tina could
have been helped, absolutely right. But with that being said,
(33:59):
there is light in this story. After Tina's murder, as
well as the murders of many other Indigenous women, there
have been numerous social movements and legislative efforts that came
through to support women in both Canada and the US.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Finally, so yes, in twenty sixteen, the National Inquiry into
Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women was formed. It's a commission
that operates independently of the Canadian government and has brought
to light the violent and dangerous realities that Indigenous women
face every single day. So, as we've already mentioned, Aboriginal
(34:41):
or Native women fifteen years or older are three and
a half times more likely to experience violence than non
Aboriginal women, and fifty four percent of Aboriginal women reported
severe forms of family violence versus thirty seven percent of
non Aboriginal women. And in the United States, the National
(35:02):
Crime Information Center reported in twenty sixteen that there were
five thousand, seven hundred and twelve reports of missing American, Indian,
and Alaska Native women and girls, but the US Department
of Justice's Federal Missing Persons Database names only logged one
hundred and sixteen cases.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
That's just mind boggling. Yeah, okay, So I'm going to
tell you about some really good things that came out
of this. In March of twenty eighteen, a twenty four
to seven space called Tina's Safe Haven was open on
Selkirk Avenue in Tina's memory. The shelter provides around the
(35:43):
clock support and resources for the Winnipeg youth, and this
was made possible by a three hundred and fifty thousand
dollars grant from the Canadian government. This grant was huge
for them.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
So and more recently in October of twenty twenty, then
President Trump actually signed Savannah's Act into law. The Act
was co sponsored by Alaskan Senator Lisa Murkowski and Nevada
Senator Catherine Cortes Mastow, and it provides resources and increases
coordination across government agencies to help solve cases involving missing
(36:21):
and murdered Indigenous women and girls. And this legislation is
actually named after a real person. Savannah Lafontaine Graywynd was
a twenty two year old Indigenous woman who was abducted
and killed in North Dakota in twenty seventeen. And ironically
(36:43):
and sadly, her body was also found in the same river,
the Red River, that Tina Fontaine's body was found in.
So there is still so much more work to do
to protect these young girls. But hopefully by sharing Tina's story,
(37:04):
we can help put a face to these issues that
are happening in these Native communities. You know, I have
a very inquisitive ten year old, right, I mean, Yvette
knows her niece, my daughter, Leilani. She wants to know everything, everything, everything,
and at ten years old, you know, and being you know,
(37:27):
descendants from an a Q serial killer, you can only
tell her so much. So I tell her little things,
but she hears her mommy and her auntie, you know,
talking about the cases we're doing on Facing Evil. So
she was asking me about this one and I almost
actually broke down in tears talking about it because I
was about to say, you know, a young Indigenous woman
(37:48):
named Tina Fontaine was murdered, but I couldn't get those
words out of my mouth. I said, a young girl
was murdered who was only just a few years older
than you, Leilani. And she was asking all kinds of questions.
She wanted to know about her family, her upbringing, and
she even said She's like, I'm sure she just was
really sad that her dad was killed and so that's
(38:09):
why she went down a dark path. And I'm like,
oh my god, from the mouths of babes. But you know, it,
just I think it's important to tell Leilani and tell
the world all these stories. You know, we have to
tell people that things are going on so that it
can stop.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
Right, and we have to tell it so those that
are not aware that this is happening, or should I say,
those that want to stay in a bubble, right, You
know that we have to change it. We have to
change it, so we have to share their stories.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
Yep. It's important to tell the world who Tina Fontaine
was so we can help other missing and murdered Indigenous
women and girls across the world. And now it's time
for the last segment of our show. Our Emua and
(39:08):
Imua means to move onward and upward, and to move forward.
It's our final message of hope and healing.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
That's right Russia and our Emua today needs to be
a loud roar, a call to action. We need to
bring more attention to the epidemic of missing and murdered
Indigenous women and children all across the US and Canada.
We really need to tell their stories. People need to
(39:38):
know who they are, and we need to hold people
accountable and lift them up.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
I couldn't agree more. And my call to action, however
small it may seem, is for all of us to
follow social media content creators, Indigenous creators like Eugene Brave Rock,
Candy Brings Plenty, and the m MIP which is the
Missing and Murdered Indigenous People and Mutual Aid organization, follow them,
(40:09):
support them and help humans like Tina I believe this
is a way we all can move onward and upward.
Speaker 3 (40:18):
Emua emua. Well, that is our show for today. We
would love to hear what you thought about today's discussions
and if there is a case that you'd like us
to cover. Please find us on social media or email
us at Facingego Pod at tenderfoot dot tv until next time.
Speaker 5 (40:41):
Aloha.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV.
The show is hosted by Russia Pacuerero and a Vet Gentile.
Matt Frederick and Alex Williams our executive producers on behalf
of iHeartRadio, with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk, Donald
albright In Payne Lindsay our executive producers on behalf of
(41:29):
Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Claudia Dafrico.
Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on
social media or email us at Facingevilpod at tenderfoot dot tv.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV, visit the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
(41:53):
favorite shows.
You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and
Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast
are solely those of the individuals participating in the show
and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or tenderfoot TV.
This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable
for everyone. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hello, everyone, welcome back to our new podcast, Facing Evil
from Tenderfoot TV and iHeartRadio. We are your hosts. I'm
Roscha Pecuerero.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
And I'm Evet Gentila, And.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Of course we know that we're sisters, right And apparently
I like to do everything that my big sister does.
And my big sister fell a few couple months ago,
right before she had to do the New York City
half marathon.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
And I don't fall. I'm not the club. And I'm
just putting that out there.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Alexy One and Trevor, our beautiful producer. I need to
tell you what I did this week. I fell down.
I fell down the stairs. Okay, well, I fell down
the stair. I missed you.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Found you, fell down one one step.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
And I broke my big right toe because I want
to be like my big sister and yeah, so if
you hear me wincing while we're talking about the case today,
that is why, Trevor.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
So.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
But the funny thing about that is you never you
never said to me, you said I fell down the stairs.
And it wasn't until hours later that Sanna, her wife,
is on the other line, laughing hysterically saying, no, she
she fell down a step.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
My foot got stuck in my very large pant leg
and I skipped a step and basically I planted into
the doordown with my toe.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah, how's your pain level?
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Seven out of ten? So you know, we might need
to have pain relievers later, but regardless, so you know,
I mean, there might be some tears today, but it'll
be a mixture of the case that we're talking about
and my broken toe.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Yes, yes, yes, and always we are so blessed and
so lucky to have our amazing producer, Trevor Young. He
is our I like to call him our old soul. Yes,
and he is going to take us through the case today,
So Trevor, it's all yours.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
Winnipeg Police reveals stunning new details today in a disturbing
case about just where teenager Tina Fontaine was before she
disappeared for good, and about just who might have been
among the last to see her alive.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
The startling new report released today details just how support
services failed the fifteen.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Year old before her death.
Speaker 5 (02:58):
Sports national outreach.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
From the moment the body of fifteen year old Tina
Fontaine was pulled from the Red River. The case has
been high profile and politically charged.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Today we're digging into the case of Tina Fontaine, a
young girl from the indigenous community in Manitoba, Canada. At
the age of fifteen years old, she was found dead
in Winnipeg in August of twenty fourteen. Tina's life up
until her death was incredibly tough. With very little family
(03:29):
support resources and a family history of substance abuse, it
almost seemed as though Tina had very little hope for
a stable life, and during the last year of her life,
she had fallen into sex work and had been frequently
reported missing. On one of those occasions, she never came home.
On August seventeenth, twenty fourteen, her body was found in
(03:53):
the Red River. Witnesses identified one older man who they
believed was responsible since he was the life last known
person with Tina. He was charged, but was eventually acquitted
of the murder, and so the looming questions in this
case are who killed Tina, Why wasn't she getting the
support she needed? And how is her story indicative of
(04:15):
a bigger problem an epidemic of violence against Indigenous women
across North America.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
That's so true that you say that, Trevor, because yes,
we're telling Tina's story, but really we're telling the stories
of all of the missing and murdered Indigenous women and
girls across Canada and the US. I had no idea
how big of a problem this really was until we
dove into Tina.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Right, And that's why we really want to tell this story.
It's a very important story to tell because when we
say an epidemic, I mean the numbers are staggering, particularly
in the Winnipeg area.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
I know.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
I found that it was eighteen point seven percent of
the women and children were living in poverty, So that
was about roughly thirty thousand children and women.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Yeah, I mean, in particular, the issue of violence against
Native women is particularly bad. I was looking at some
research from the Native Women's Association of Canada and they
found that Native or Aboriginal women fifteen years or older
were actually three and a half times more likely to
experience violence than non Aboriginal women. And then fifty four
(05:34):
percent of those Aboriginal women reported severe forms of family
violence versus only thirty seven percent of non Aboriginal women.
That's not a great number either, but the difference there
is huge, right, almost twenty percent stagg.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
AG numbers, I know. And there's also from the same organization,
they reported that Indigenous women in the Canada's sex trade.
I mean, get this, one hundred and seventy one women
were killed between nineteen ninety one and two thousand and four. Guys,
that is about forty five percent of those cases. I
(06:11):
mean they're still unsolved. That's that's not terrific.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Yeah, I mean that's a I guess a huge theme
for this case, right is you know, these things happen.
That's one piece of it. But then another piece of
it is that they're not given the same kind of attention.
You know that similar cases for non native or white women.
Get you know, we've known about this as a cultural
thing for some time now. You know, everybody of course
is talking about Gabby Potito case and why that was
(06:37):
getting so much attention when there are hundreds thousands of
Aboriginal and Native women who go missing or are murdered
every year, and they don't get the same kind of
attention or investigations. So hopefully by talking about this, we
can start to draw more attention towards those cases and
you know, maybe less away from the other side, or
(06:57):
you know, at least find some equality there.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Equality. That's that's the word.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
That is the word, and that is why we do
this Russia right exactly for this reason, so we can
share their stories and people will be aware that this
is happening and not you know, keep their blinders on.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
I have to say too, like, first of all, I
had no idea that the Center for Disease Control in
the US. I mean, I know it's called the CDC
because I think all of us have become very familiar
with the CDC during this coronavirus pandemic. But the CDC
came out with a report that murder is the third
leading cause of death among American, Indian and Alaska Native
(07:39):
women and that rates of violence on reservations can be
up to ten times higher than the national average. So
they need our help. These women and girls need us
to talk about them and not just the Gabby Potitos
of the world. Absolutely, Absolutely, Tina was more than just
(08:01):
a statistics. She was born into a situation familiar to
many Indigenous families. Trevor, what do we know about her
parents and her upbringing?
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Yeah, it's interesting. I think Tina's family history is a
pretty distressing example of something that happens through a lot
of Indigenous families. So first I'll tell you about Tina's
father and grandfather. Her dad was a guy named Eugene Fontaine,
and he was a member of the sac King First
(08:32):
Nation in Manitoba. If I'm saying that correctly, I apologize
if I'm not. And then his father, Tina's grandfather, was
actually the survivor of a residential school. Do you guys
know about residential schools?
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Well, I did some research on them, and I do
know that residential schools were created in the late eighteen
hundreds to separate Indigenous children from their parents and essentially
strip them of their identities. And it reminded me so
much of of what the Christian missionaries did in Hawaii,
you know, trying to westernize everything. But yeah, I've heard
(09:07):
horror stories.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
That's what they were, like supposed to be is these
kind of like schools to teach them on the ways
of proper a Western civilization. These indigenous communities primarily children,
but they ended up being more like internment camps, and
the conditions were horrible. Many children died, you know. Oftentimes
they were put up in these little shacks and the coldest,
most desolate places in Canada. So really horrible and so sad,
(09:32):
I know. And those sorts of experiences took a toll
on that generation for sure, as you can imagine. So
as a result, Eugene's father, this being Tina's grandfather, ended
up being an alcoholic, and he ended up being a
very abusive alcoholic, and so this kind of created a
domino effect of trauma in their family. So Eugene Tina's
(09:55):
dad eventually left home at twelve years old, which is
crazy because he could deal with his alcoholic, abusive father,
and he moved to Winnipeg. And so obviously this sort
of chaotic upbringing was hard on him, and he too
developed an alcohol addiction. And so then there's Tina's mother.
(10:15):
So Tina's mother was named Valentina Duck. She also went
by Tina, and she belonged to the blood vein First Nation,
which is also in Manitoba. She also suffered a number
of traumatic events throughout her childhood, including sexual exploitation. She
was removed from her family by the CFS, which is
Child and Family Services at the age of ten. She
(10:35):
spent a number of years being moved around before she
met Eugene when she was just twelve years old, and
by this point, I guess he was twenty three or so.
So she became pregnant with their first child, which would
have been Tina's older sibling, in nineteen ninety four, which
would have made her fourteen. So on January first, nineteen
ninety nine, at the age of seventeen, Valentina gave birth
(10:58):
to Tina Fontaine who were talking about today. So Tina's
father is twenty eight at this point, and the parents' relationship,
as you can imagine, is very unstable, marked with substance abuse, violence,
you name it. And as a result, poor Tina was
left with her maternal grandmother for pretty much most of
the time.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
That's just crazy, right to think about this little child,
I mean, and things just get tougher for Tina from
that point over, I mean, over the next four years,
Tina dealt with a ton I mean a ton of
instability as she was placed in and out of foster care.
I mean, and she was moved between her mother, her grandmother.
(11:43):
And this is what kills me too, is like children
are placed in these hotels by Child and Family Services?
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Why are children just like her mom?
Speaker 5 (11:53):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (11:53):
But why are they put in these hotels? I can't
I don't comprehend that.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
I guess that's all they can do. I mean it's
the only kind of you know, neutral, yeah, place with
a bed, right, you know, and all the amenities that
you need to survive.
Speaker 5 (12:07):
I know.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
But it's like you you think about it, and it's like,
but they can still come and go and leave there easily.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
You know.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
There's like nobody really seriously monitoring them.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Yeah, and that does become a problem that way.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Yeah, and for Tina, I mean, her life just from
that point on got unbelievably worse. Tina's father, who you
were speaking of, you know earlier, Trevor, he got into
a fight and from what I understand, it was over money,
and he died from his injuries. I mean, I can
only imagine how Tina took this news. And even though
(12:44):
she didn't live with her father, like she still was
extremely close to him and was devastated by his murder,
and of course, like her family history, she became withdrawn
and pressed, and she started using marijuana and doing all
kinds of things right just to cope with the loss
(13:07):
self medicating right of her dad, you know. And on
top of that, she doesn't have her mother. Her mother
is in and out of the picture. Now your father
has been murdered.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Well, yeah, and keep in mind to you know, her
dad dies in twenty eleven. Tina herself was born in
nineteen ninety nine, so she's around twelve years old when
she starts going through this self medication process, you know,
starting to use very drugs. She's only twelve. I know,
she's only twelve years old. You know.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
I've been thinking about this a lot because I always
feel that, like you always have a choice, right to
break generational trauma or to not repeat what your parents
have done. And I can only say, like for myself,
like my dad was and is an alcoholic and a
drug addict, and I saw all of that, and I'm like,
(13:57):
I was like, there's no way in hell I'm ever
going to be anything like that. However, I do know
that I was blessed by having my sister event and
my mom, you know, because my mom and dad were
not together, thankfully, But I wish that Tina had had,
you know, that safe space, I think and she actually,
I know we're referring to her as her grandmother, but
(14:18):
biologically it was her great aunt. But I think she
was her safe space. And you know, her grandmother was
just doing the best she could to try to protect Tina.
But I can only imagine what it would have been
like without, you know, that big, strong presence in your
life to tell you right from wrong.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
But again, you know, like Trevor said, you have to remember,
she's twelve, Yeah, twelve dealing with all this. It shouldn't exactly,
it should not be it should not be her responsibility.
And like you did, say Russia, like with her her
great aunt, I think, you know, she did everything in
her means that she could do. She did all she could,
(14:59):
but there a point when you don't know what else
to do, right, So it's just it's just really sad.
It is so heartbreaking. And so two years after Tina's
father was killed, where in the last year of Tina's
life at this point, you know, she was skipping school regularly,
(15:21):
running away from home, and she was living you know
with her grandmother, you know, great aunt at the time,
since her own mother was so unstable, so her own
mom didn't even come in after you.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Know, her dad was killed. But Tina's grandmother admitted that
she didn't know how to help, and she refused help
from you know, CFS, from child Children's Family Services. And
I know that, you know, she was, like you said,
you bet, she was doing the absolute best that she could.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Right, I mean, back then, given those times, I'm sure
she was doing what she thought was best, you know,
at the time. But then in January of twenty fourteen,
this was really a turning point for Tina, and sadly
in a very bad way, because on January thirtieth, she
(16:12):
was rushed to the hospital after a suicide attempt and
she had cut her wrist. But thankfully the injuries that
she that she had were minor. But she did tell
the nurse that she was having suicidal thoughts, and according
to Tina's grandmother, the hospital and the social services didn't
(16:35):
take any action to help her. I mean, that's she's
right there, she's in the hospital, she's tried to commit
or made an attempt right to commit suicide. Get her
some she's lost her father.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Get her some therapy.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
She needs help. She needs help.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
And then by April, Tina's grandmother was so worried about
Tina's safety with everything you know, she had been doing
and going through, so she did finally reach out to
CFS for support because at this time, Tina was experimenting
heavily with drugs, she kept running away from home, and
she was connecting with adult men online.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Right, So all of this brings us to July first,
twenty fourteen, and Tina went to visit her mom in Winnipeg.
Her grandmother had agreed to let her go because the
last time she had saw her mom everything went well.
So her grandmother said, I will give you this calling
card and fifty dollars and go see your mom.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Sadly though, that was the last time her grandma would
see Tina alive. And we'll talk more about what happened
to Tina after we take a quick break.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
All right, So Tina is now fifteen and in Winnipeg,
and things just get incredibly crazy and dark from you're
on out.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Oh my god, this is okay. Let me just let
me just tell you guys about this police incident. Three
weeks later, on July seventeenth, the police were called because
Tina was on the street. She was screaming while she
was being dragged by some eighteen year old male and
(18:22):
they both were drunk. The police had already picked them up,
so they send Tina to a short term detox resource
for youth, and she tells the nurses at the detox
center that she had Okay, get this, you guys, she
had fifteen to twenty beers before the incident, and that
(18:44):
this was her boyfriend that she was with. Can I
just say, I'm fifty three and one hundred and thirty pounds.
If I was to have fifteen to twenty beers, I
would be comatose, function I would be comatose.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Yeah, And she Tina was even though she was fifteen.
Like she looked, she had a very petite frame, like
I can only imagine, so for her to drink that
much and be functioning.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
And right, she'd been doing it for a while.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Well, at the end of the day, she's a child, right,
I mean, that's the biggest thing is she's a fifteen
year old. Nobody should be drinking alcohol at that age anyways,
let alone a you know, alcohol poisoning inducing amount of it.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
But I mean, you know, this is what she grew
up seeing her mother and her father do the same thing.
So it's a cycle that's just being repeated.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Generational trauma is definitely a thing, it is.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
And speaking of her mother, obviously, she was supposed to
be with her mother at this point, and the question is,
you know, why isn't she with her mom? Where is
her mother? So, as it turns out, we now know
she was not staying with her mother really at any
point during this time. On July eighteenth, she ended up
staying in a hotel provided by Children and Family Services.
(20:02):
They actually discharged her after this, without really any plan
to support her after she got out. So the day
that Tina was released from the hotel, CFS lost track
of her. They couldn't find her. The agency contacted all
of Tina's family members, including her grandmother, her mother, and
no one knew where she was. You know, her mother
had no idea where she was, even though she was
(20:23):
supposed to be visiting with her.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
Right It's like, where was her mother?
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Yeah? And so then on July twenty second, of twenty fourteen,
Tina actually called her social worker and let her know
that she was safe somewhere, staying with a boyfriend, and
supposedly this is the same eighteen year olds who had
been dragging her a few days ago.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Her this is the this is the boyfriend, this is
that guy again. Great, great, great great great.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Okay, So no one was really sure at this point
where Tina was even sleeping at night. She was bouncing
around from different shelters. But she was actually officially reported
missing on July thirty first by the Winnipeg Police. So
when they did locate her next on August eighth, twenty fourteen,
it was an awful situation.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
This is really tough to talk about because it really
frustrates me how lost Tina was obviously getting, I mean
more and more out of control. The police pulled over
a truck early in the morning for not using proper signals,
and they find Tina, who gave them a fake name,
and I believe the name she gave them was Tessa
(21:34):
too heart. She's sitting there, physically, sitting there in the
passenger seat. The driver is drunk and he's driving on
a suspended license. The police they impound the guy's truck,
but then they let Tina go even though she was
listed as a missing person. Like, is that that that's
(21:55):
not doing your job.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
That is not doing your job, And it's totally ridiculous.
And what's even worse is that just hours later, Tino
was actually found unconscious in a back alley near the
University of Winnipeg in an area that's commonly known for
sex work. And it's really hard for me to say
(22:19):
this knowing that she was just a fifteen year old girl.
But Tino was found without clothes on from the waist down.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
But she did, I mean, she did thankfully get to
a hospital, thank god. And while she was there she
did tell her CFS worker that she was involved with
a fifty three year old man named Raymond Cormier.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
Yeah, so this is a pretty weird day, right. So
there's this incident with her getting pulled over, She's found
behind you know, this alleyway unconscious. This is all happening
on the same day, which is August eighth. Discharge from
the hospital thereafter, we do know the CFS puts her
in a hotel that night, as they tend to do,
(23:07):
but she doesn't stay. She immediately leaves and CFS again
loses track of her.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
So she again again.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Geez. Yeah, you would think after something as horrible as
being found unconscious, you know, being only halfway clothed as
a fifteen year old girl, that they would take more
efforts to like make sure she stays in the hotel room, sheep,
stays in their care. But clearly they weren't really monitoring
her very well.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
Right, and even I mean to you know, when they
take her to the hospital, like was she given a
you know, did they do a rape kit? Right? She's
Those are all questions.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
I will say too on all the news reports that
I've seen on Tina that again, her death was like
a wake up call, right, And so I have read
and I have listened to different shows, and they don't
CFS does not release children to hotels anymore. That's not
something that's a common practice in Canada, thankfully.
Speaker 5 (24:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
Yeah. And also just a little sidebar, I was reading
the Manitoba Advocate for Children and Youth and it was
giving a detailed like document on Tina's life. And those
two officers that were that pulled her over, they were
suspended and actually eventually let go.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
So something something was done.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Yeah, the incompetence in this whole case.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
Right, right, Okay, guys, so we need to talk about
Tina's friend, Katrina.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Right, Katrina, the eighteen year old who also spent time
in the CFS shelters when she was young, and was
actually a friend of Tina's, right.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
From what we understand, I mean, Katrina was also the
last person to see Tina alive. They had hung out
together earlier in the day, and they were together during
that truck incident, and they were hanging out again when
a man approached Tina about three am, right, and.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
We're talking about three am now of August ninth, So
really this is a continuation of the events that happened
on August eighth, all these things that we've been talking about, Like,
this is all within less than twenty four hours. So
according to CBC News, which covered this event, quote, Katrina
said they hung out until about three am on August ninth,
(25:31):
when a man approached them on a lease avenue and
offered to pay Fontane money to perform a sex act.
The friend said Fontane accepted the offer and told her
she would be back in about fifteen minutes. Katrina said
she followed Fontaine and the man for about half a block,
but it was too dark to see where they were going.
She would say, I don't know, just something didn't feel right.
(25:55):
I waited half an hour, and then time just kept
on passing, and that was the last anybody would hear
from or see Tina.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
And sadly, two weeks later, on August seventeenth, Tina's little
body was found in the Red River. She had been
wrapped up in plastic and a duvet comforter, and her
body had been weighed down by rocks.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
So we need to take another break real quick. But
when we come back we will talk more about the
investigation and everything that unfolded afterwards.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
The whole thing I mean is just it's so sad.
It feels like, as we've said earlier, there were so
many pivotal moments where if someone would have just intervened
or took a moment, Tina would still be with us,
She still would have had a chance.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
And I think what also feels so unfair is that
we have no idea how Tina died. We don't know
what her cause of death was. According to the Manitoba
Advocate for Children and Youth, the autopsy was inconclusive. There
wasn't evidence of any physical trauma, and the condition of
her body made it difficult to determine the cause of death.
(27:15):
Is that, Trevor, Is that more of a thing like
when a body is found in water, is it much harder?
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Well, bodies technically tend to decompose slower in water. However,
the water does affect the body in ways that make
it harder to identify or do an autopsy on properly.
You know, bodies might bloat, making it less clear if
there are certain injuries that reveal certain things. The water
might also wash away things like DNA or any other evidence.
(27:43):
So I would say bodies that have been in water
for a long time are impossibly hard to do a
proper autopsy on. So to me this makes sense, But
that just kind of adds to the tragedy of the
whole situation.
Speaker 5 (27:55):
I know.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
All that said, though, the police did have their suspect,
even if I didn't know how she died, and of
course they pointed to Raymond Cormier. If you remember, Cormier
was the person that she mentioned she had been with,
the fifty three year old man that she mentioned in
the hospital when she was being interviewed by a CFS right. So,
according to the Winnipeg Police, Cormier and Tina had both
(28:19):
stayed in the same home on the east side of
the city for how long We're not sure, but Cormier
had a long list of criminal convictions. In total, he
had something like ninety two different offenses across four different
Canadian provinces, which is crazy. So of course the police
are looking at this guy, and they do eventually arrest
him and they charge him with second degree murder. CBC
(28:43):
also reported that quote the second degree murder charge was
laid based on evidence gathered through forensic examinations, witness interviews,
and covert operations. Of course, Cormier chose to plead not guilty.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
So let's talk about the trial. It began on January
twenty ninth, twenty eighteen, and it included witness testimony from
someone named Tyrell Morrison. And from what I found is
that Tyrell was thirty years old and he basically was
drinking Buddies with Raymond, and he drank with Raymond and Tina.
(29:19):
And so Tyrell Morrison actually testified that he saw Tina
and Raymond arguing because he had sold Tina's bike frame
for drugs.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
And other witnesses testified that they saw the two of
them together. So Tina with this fifty three year old
man leading up and on August eighth, the day she
actually went missing.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Right, So as of this point, we have a lot
of witnesses kind of having them together. But in the
trial there's really no forensic evidence being presented or direct
eyewitness testimony and by a direct I mean eyewitness testimony
pointing to him and her like during the murder or
(30:03):
the killing or sometime around there. So really this case
was built around secret recordings made of Cormier by the police,
and in these recordings, he talked about finding Tina's killer,
talked about her death. According to CBC, he quote seemed
obsessed with Tina's killing, and the prosecutors in this case,
Jim Ross and Bretta Passler, pointed to these recordings as
(30:26):
his primary evidence of guilt.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
Well, ultimately, Kremier was acquitted on February twenty second, twenty eighteen.
So what do you guys think about this? Like, do
you think he did it? Do you think Katrina did it? Like?
What is your take? I Mean, I'm a little torn,
like I think it could have possibly been just a john,
(30:49):
because Katrina said that, you know, she went off with
this man at three am, and she had agreed to
do some sexual act with him, right, So it could
have just been some crazy john, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
That's the theory I'm leaning towards, is a John, Like
I don't, I don't. I can't see why Katrina would
have any kind of motive to do that. But I
think that authorities pinpointed and we're trying to get you know,
Cormier as the guilty party because that was the easy route, right,
Like when you're trying to look for a john, like
(31:24):
obviously like they're not going to use their name. I mean,
like there's there's so much more work that they have
to do. I have a feeling that it was whoever
she left with that night when Katrina last saw her.
That's my guess. What do you what are you leaning towards, Trevor?
Speaker 1 (31:42):
You know, I hesitate to really jump to a conclusion
in a case like this. I think it's another case
where a body is so decomposed, the remains so degraded
that we don't really have any evidence or concept of
like what happened or who it could have been, you know.
So the longer that a body is left out or
is decomposed, the less chance you have to like really
(32:04):
draw any clear conclusion. So I mean, in short, like
I don't know, and I've kind of accepted that I
will never know. I mean, it could have been this
Cormier fellow. But at the end of the day, I mean,
I think the way it worked out and the legal
proceeding is accurate. I mean, if all you have is
this kind of circumstantial evidence based off of these phone calls,
that's just not enough to convict that it's not enough
(32:26):
to draw conclusion in second degree murder. So I really
don't know. I don't have an answer, you know. I
think the bigger takeaway for me in this is that
we could have known, right, right, Like, if enough people
had done better, we could have had a better idea,
there could have been a better investigation and maybe things
would be more clear. So that's what I'm most mad about,
(32:48):
I think when I hear about this case.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
So after Cormier, you know, is acquitted, the Manitoba Indigenous
leaders put out a statement that criticized the government for
what had happened to Tina and I am going to
pronounce this name with all of the respect that I
have in my soul. So if I mispronounced it, I
(33:12):
am so sorry. But I am definitely trying. But this
is a very important quote and it comes from the
Key Watsonawi Okimakanak Grand Chief Shila North, and Sheila said,
we as a nation need to do better for our
young people. We've all failed her.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
That is such a powerful statement, I mean, and that
resonates so deep, I'm sure to all of us if
we think about it, the CFS, the police, her parents,
I mean, there were so many times that Tina could
have been helped, absolutely right. But with that being said,
(33:59):
there is light in this story. After Tina's murder, as
well as the murders of many other Indigenous women, there
have been numerous social movements and legislative efforts that came
through to support women in both Canada and the US.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Finally, so yes, in twenty sixteen, the National Inquiry into
Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women was formed. It's a commission
that operates independently of the Canadian government and has brought
to light the violent and dangerous realities that Indigenous women
face every single day. So, as we've already mentioned, Aboriginal
(34:41):
or Native women fifteen years or older are three and
a half times more likely to experience violence than non
Aboriginal women, and fifty four percent of Aboriginal women reported
severe forms of family violence versus thirty seven percent of
non Aboriginal women. And in the United States, the National
(35:02):
Crime Information Center reported in twenty sixteen that there were
five thousand, seven hundred and twelve reports of missing American, Indian,
and Alaska Native women and girls, but the US Department
of Justice's Federal Missing Persons Database names only logged one
hundred and sixteen cases.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
That's just mind boggling. Yeah, okay, So I'm going to
tell you about some really good things that came out
of this. In March of twenty eighteen, a twenty four
to seven space called Tina's Safe Haven was open on
Selkirk Avenue in Tina's memory. The shelter provides around the
(35:43):
clock support and resources for the Winnipeg youth, and this
was made possible by a three hundred and fifty thousand
dollars grant from the Canadian government. This grant was huge
for them.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
So and more recently in October of twenty twenty, then
President Trump actually signed Savannah's Act into law. The Act
was co sponsored by Alaskan Senator Lisa Murkowski and Nevada
Senator Catherine Cortes Mastow, and it provides resources and increases
coordination across government agencies to help solve cases involving missing
(36:21):
and murdered Indigenous women and girls. And this legislation is
actually named after a real person. Savannah Lafontaine Graywynd was
a twenty two year old Indigenous woman who was abducted
and killed in North Dakota in twenty seventeen. And ironically
(36:43):
and sadly, her body was also found in the same river,
the Red River, that Tina Fontaine's body was found in.
So there is still so much more work to do
to protect these young girls. But hopefully by sharing Tina's story,
(37:04):
we can help put a face to these issues that
are happening in these Native communities. You know, I have
a very inquisitive ten year old, right, I mean, Yvette
knows her niece, my daughter, Leilani. She wants to know everything, everything, everything,
and at ten years old, you know, and being you know,
(37:27):
descendants from an a Q serial killer, you can only
tell her so much. So I tell her little things,
but she hears her mommy and her auntie, you know,
talking about the cases we're doing on Facing Evil. So
she was asking me about this one and I almost
actually broke down in tears talking about it because I
was about to say, you know, a young Indigenous woman
(37:48):
named Tina Fontaine was murdered, but I couldn't get those
words out of my mouth. I said, a young girl
was murdered who was only just a few years older
than you, Leilani. And she was asking all kinds of questions.
She wanted to know about her family, her upbringing, and
she even said She's like, I'm sure she just was
really sad that her dad was killed and so that's
(38:09):
why she went down a dark path. And I'm like,
oh my god, from the mouths of babes. But you know, it,
just I think it's important to tell Leilani and tell
the world all these stories. You know, we have to
tell people that things are going on so that it
can stop.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
Right, and we have to tell it so those that
are not aware that this is happening, or should I say,
those that want to stay in a bubble, right, You
know that we have to change it. We have to
change it, so we have to share their stories.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
Yep. It's important to tell the world who Tina Fontaine
was so we can help other missing and murdered Indigenous
women and girls across the world. And now it's time
for the last segment of our show. Our Emua and
(39:08):
Imua means to move onward and upward, and to move forward.
It's our final message of hope and healing.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
That's right Russia and our Emua today needs to be
a loud roar, a call to action. We need to
bring more attention to the epidemic of missing and murdered
Indigenous women and children all across the US and Canada.
We really need to tell their stories. People need to
(39:38):
know who they are, and we need to hold people
accountable and lift them up.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
I couldn't agree more. And my call to action, however
small it may seem, is for all of us to
follow social media content creators, Indigenous creators like Eugene Brave Rock,
Candy Brings Plenty, and the m MIP which is the
Missing and Murdered Indigenous People and Mutual Aid organization, follow them,
(40:09):
support them and help humans like Tina I believe this
is a way we all can move onward and upward.
Speaker 3 (40:18):
Emua emua. Well, that is our show for today. We
would love to hear what you thought about today's discussions
and if there is a case that you'd like us
to cover. Please find us on social media or email
us at Facingego Pod at tenderfoot dot tv until next time.
Speaker 5 (40:41):
Aloha.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV.
The show is hosted by Russia Pacuerero and a Vet Gentile.
Matt Frederick and Alex Williams our executive producers on behalf
of iHeartRadio, with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk, Donald
albright In Payne Lindsay our executive producers on behalf of
(41:29):
Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Claudia Dafrico.
Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on
social media or email us at Facingevilpod at tenderfoot dot tv.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV, visit the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
(41:53):
favorite shows.
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