June 29, 2020 • 41 mins
Zach and Donald are joined by Scrubs creator Bill Lawrence, and one of the stars of the show, Sarah Chalke, as they discuss the shows' difficult history with Blackface.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Here's some stories about show we made about a bunch
of doctor nurses and stories, So get around here. Are
yetto around here? Hey, everybody, welcome to a special episode
(00:32):
of Fake Doctor's Real Friends. We assembled the gang here
a bit because we want to talk about black face
in Scrubs. There were three episodes in particular over the
years that had instances of black face. One was Me
in a fantasy being Donald, one was Sarah in a
fantasy being Donald, and the third was Donald and I
(00:54):
attending a black fraternity party, him and white face and
me and black face. So I think we all have
a lot we want to say. There's a lot going
on in the world right now, and um this I
think it's very good that these discussions are all coming up.
Not to use a hackneyed phrase, but it does feel
like a teachable moment for us all. And I thought, Bill,
(01:14):
you might want to start off since you led the
charge on this and and called the studio and said
you want the episodes taken down, So do you want
to just first talk about your decision to do that
and you're thinking behind it. Look, the most important reason
I wanted to do this, besides the fact that you know,
I just felt stupid and bummed out about it, and
(01:37):
it's my show, and you know, I'm like, fucking if
it makes me feel that crappy, I can, I can,
you know, I can take that out as I did
see some things directed at Donald and Zach and Sarah
and everybody should know that the reason that words showrunner
exists in television is because you're the gatekeeper and anything
(01:59):
that gets allowed on a show you have to ultimately
take responsibility for. So, first off, super sorry that any
of you guys had to deal with any stuff because,
you know, ultimately, even though we're all friends and it
was a super creative and kind of reciprocal environment with
you know, you guys, still ultimately at the end of
(02:19):
the day did and and uh, we're receptive to doing whatever,
you know, stuff we told you about. And then the
second thing you asked, it's a good starting place because
what's so interesting is it starts like ignorance. You know,
is even now I was reading stuff, you know, just
the last couple of weeks, um when I first became
(02:41):
aware of this is and you know it's because of
the podcast Donald Zack. You're revisiting old episodes and it's uh,
you know, I want to make sure we never sound
like we're making excuses. But one of the jokes amongst
us is that none of us have ever really watched
this show. When you were on a show, you make it,
you film it, you you shoot it, and you see
it on TV, and none of us have really watched it.
And for me, fifteen fourteen years and they're not ten
(03:03):
years since I saw the finale, but fifteen years since
I saw any of these episodes. And you guys saw
some stuff and you're like, oh man, you know there's
some issues stuff in there. You couldn't do today. It
didn't feel great and the Disney was really cool. We
didn't get asked to do this, you know. I called
him up and said, uh, um, hey, is a bunch
of episodes have black face in it and I want
to get rid of them. And uh, It's very interesting
(03:27):
because the PC cancel culture whatever on Twitter is like,
why did you pull the whole episodes? Why don't you
just edit those moments out and put them back on?
And I said, you know, to one person, I'm like, yeah,
well it's a pandemic. I don't really have an editing
facility up right now. And I'll probably do that, you know,
but the first thing I wanted to do is get
them off TVs. That bumped me out personally, and we
(03:50):
can talk about why if you guys want to. You know,
it just made me feel shitty. I want to say
one of the biggest night Naivea Tay things that I
have about it, and I'm and I'm very sorry for
for my participation, and I just want to first talk
about the ones we're both Sarah and I were dressing
up as donald and fantasies. Is that I really, frankly
at the time delineated in my mind between the traditional
(04:15):
black face that we've seen. I remember when when Ted
Danson did that black face thing, and I think it
was ninety three or so. I remember being being like shocked.
I remember being like, what the funk was that guy thinking?
And I was just out of high school, you know,
because he had done the you know, the one we
saw growing up and back when yeah it was back
when he was dating Whoopi Goldberg. Yeah, he was dating
(04:36):
Whipie Goldberg, who comes up a lot on this podcast. Um,
and I remember she was laughing at it, and remember
being like I remember even just as a as a
seventeen year old or whatever, being like, what the funk
is that guy thinking? But I never when we were
doing this, I'm embarrassed to say now, I never equated it.
I was like, I, oh, it's a fantasy where I'm
trying to be my best friend, and I never thought
(04:57):
it was the same thing. Um, it took a while.
It's go while. I took about when Donald I started
the podcast. I mean, obviously I cringed a little bit
about it in years, but when not Donald I first
started the podcast, he mentioned, he goes, I mean, we
did black face on this show, and I and I
cringed just to hear Donald, I didn't even tell you this, Donald,
but to hear you say it out loud, it really
made me feel so shitty and embarrassed and um and
(05:21):
and I and I just feel stupid that at the
time I didn't say to you, Bill. I mean again,
I like, I appreciate you taking responsibility and going you know,
it was my show, but I didn't say to you
at the time, hey this is wrong, Hey we shouldn't
do this. I I could have easily spoken up, but
I didn't. I didn't see it. And that's how the
climates change. You know, where everybody used to be able
to where any joke was you know, was passible as
(05:43):
a joke as long as it was meant to make
people laugh. Nowadays there are boundaries on what you can
you know, do as far as jokes going. I know
a lot of comedians and stuff like that are dealing
with that issue as well. You know, how do you
make something that's hurt so many people? How do you
(06:03):
use that as comedy? Is the argument that everyone's having
having now, and I think people can still do it. It
It depends on the voice, you know. Um, well, yeah,
I agree with you. I feel personally a lot of
people feel this way as well. Uh. Dave Chappelle is
one of those artists who can go out and talk
about issues that we all kind of have. Some people
(06:24):
have pain when it's involved, and people will laugh still,
you know what I mean. I I you know, I
just feel like, you know, I used to watch movies
when I was a kid that with with stars that
I look up to, like, you know, Eddie Murphy movie
really comes to mind when I think about this, and
it's you know which movie about trading places. Dude. It's
(06:47):
one of the funniest scenes in the whole movie to me,
when I was a kid, I me and my friends
used to do it together where dan Ackroyd walks on
the train dressed as a Jamaican rastafari, you know what
I mean, and he's ain'to his face black and they
cut into him putting the makeup on, and he's using
shoe polish and ship like that to put it on
(07:08):
when he walked into the thing, and I just remember
laughing my ass off. And I know if that came
up now, I'd be like, oh, ship, and I wouldn't
laugh because now I know, thanks to Joel, our producer,
I'm way more educated than I was before I knew
black face was bad, you know what I mean. And
when Sarah and Zach put on makeup to look like me,
(07:30):
I didn't look at it as a racist thing. I
looked at it as, Oh, we're trying to tell a
joke that he fantasizes he wishes he was me, and
she fantasized, and he fantasizes that his girlfriend, right, you
know what I mean. But then when you go and
you listen to where all of this comes from and
and what Jim Crow is or was, And you know,
(07:52):
I'm gonna be honest with you. I knew Jim Crow
was something from the South that oppressed black people, but
I thought it was a white I'm be honest with you.
I thought it was a white man named Jim Crow
who was just a fucking you know who made it
so people couldn't go into into into and performing places
like that because people be like, oh, it's the Jim
Crow South. I had no idea. I had no idea
(08:15):
that it was Jim Crow was a white man dressed
up as a black man, trying to show America this
is how stupid black people are. And it goes so
deep for me that now I can't even watch Dumbo
now because the crows in Dumbo are crows, and they're
(08:35):
supposed to be black, and they've got all of this
slick talk and this talking job. I don't see, you know,
I don't seem just about everything all of this ship.
Now it's like, oh, I know where it comes from.
And the fact that their crows doing it and the
fucking dude's name was Jim Crow is even more of
a mind fun for me. So it's like, how you know,
(08:55):
and and this is what Disney was using at the
time to educate children on how black people were subtly
and it was like, it's like, holy shit, it starts
with ignorance, right, Uh. And you know, we can talk
about the history of it because I'm more educated than
I ever thought I would be now just but burying
myself in reading and stuff. But you guys might have
(09:17):
even noticed this is where ignorance starts. We differentiated between
kind of that Jim Crow like what you remember Al
Jolson almost a shoe polished black face thing, and we
did that bit once on the show with the intention
of showing how idiotic it was even now talking to
other view Yeah, we did it that one time with
(09:37):
Turk and j D when Turk had white makeup on
j D had black makeup on. J D got his
ass kicked. I'm like, no, we did it the other
two times that Elliott and j D were both made
up to look like Turk and none of us had
associated those is the same thing, you know what I mean?
And uh and uh, you know, I think we were
talking a little bit about it. You almost we almost thought,
(10:00):
I think that we had, in a bad way a
free pass to not have those thoughts back then because
we were so fucking proud of ourselves for doing, you know,
very diverse show in front of them behind the camera,
great black and white friendship that exists as a real
black and white friendship, great interracial couple who are stars
of the show, you know, and so uh, it was
(10:23):
almost a block of arrogance of like, oh, we're so
good in what we're portraying and doing and showing, you know,
we could never venture into muddy waters. And even now
with that same ignorance, you know, we never really connected
the two of those things until now. And you do
the reading, it's not any different, you know. And I'm
(10:44):
gonna I'm over talking, and then I'm gonna shut up
and Donald and everybody talk. And I do want to say.
One of the things that bothers me about the Internet
that that's happening is there's a big both sides is
some thing, you know, And I'm getting tons of little
connection tissue when I read now, going, well, you're gonna
pull that issue. You where that episode where Donald plays
cal Turk and as a white guy insurance agent, I'm like, no,
(11:05):
I'm not because as a white guy that does not
based in any systemic racism for me or history or
any negativity. I just don't. I just for me. I
just wanted to separate that as well. I find that
kind of argument you to be so counterproductive and ridiculous. Sorry, Donald, No,
it's so good dude. Look man, first of all, I
applaud you for saying, you know what this bothers me.
(11:27):
I want to take this out, you know what I mean,
and educating yourself like this was an educational thing for
me too, because when we made it, like my whole
idea of this whole thing was like, well, look, if
we could see g this opportunity at the time, it
would be my face on Sarah's body. And that's how
we would have got around all of that stuff. Just
to remind everyone, Donald, just remind everyone in the context
(11:47):
of that, because just with the Saurah one, for example,
it was, as I recall, j D was fantasizing what
if his girlfriend and his best friend were one person? Right,
That's how he came right, That's one of the one
of the three lines show was that you loved Turk
almost even at the end. Remember is is you tell
Elliott when you finally marry or I love you more
than Turk, and it's the biggest thing you've ever said.
(12:10):
And when you're living with Elliott, you know you the
only way it could be any better is if she
was Turk. You love him so much, right, right? Sorry,
so sorry, don't go back to your c So my whole,
my whole thing was like, oh, well, if if we
were now, we would do a CG situation and then
we wouldn't have to paint anybody. But when you do
the research and you look back at it, Bill, You're
(12:30):
absolutely right. It comes. It's a systemic thing. It comes
from a place of people being very fucked up to
black people towards the end of slavery, to dehumanize them.
And so it's like it's like you're caught between a
rock and a hard place. For me, I'm like, I'm
(12:50):
not hurt by it. I'm more disappointed that it happened.
But I also believe in comedy too, right, So you know,
there are things that some of my favorite comedians saying
things that are in some of my favorite movies that
I've laughed out loud at and now I'm finding myself
having to check that, like wait, hold up, you know,
(13:11):
let's before we start laughing at all of the things
that we found funny in the past. Let's journey back
to where it started at. And that's the only that's
the reason why for me. Uh, I'm i'm I'm I'm
very I'm I'm Bill. I'll be honest with you. I'm
proud of you for saying, you know what, this bothered me.
I'm taking this out. Uh, you know it's not it's
(13:32):
not you can't do that, you know, I don't. I
don't want to revolve around like, uh, we did good.
We're would be so proud of you know what you mean.
But no, but that's not that's that's that's not what
I mean by it. You know, I feel like you felt,
oh shit, this is an issue and it's not all
right with me. So I want to remove it simple
(13:53):
go the way to simplify it. Donald is for everybody,
I think is and by the way, you know, there's
always a slippery slope in the arts of what you
know you're allowed to remove, keeping, et cetera. But for me,
and I'm not saying it's right for everybody. Uh, it's
my show. I'm really proud of it. And um, those
(14:15):
moments nobody pressured me, and those moments make me feel
like ship make me feel stupid and uh and by
the way, there's gonna be other moments in the show
that make other people angry and go you want to
remove those And I'm going back through and watching the shows.
And it's nothing that has bothered me as much as
these three things. You know what I mean? This isn't
and so for a good rule, Yeah, it's what's the
(14:38):
big deal, I'm gonna pull three things out that make
me feel like ship because now entertainment um exists in perpetuity,
and uh, I should be allowed to do that. You know,
it's not a big deal. I'm glad you mentioned the
thing about Donald being a white guy because I've I've
seen that a lot too. And there's and and I
think that it's important to differentiate that there was not
(15:03):
this horrible history of people who were persecuted and and
and and mocked and and and and made fun of.
It's it's a completely different thing. And I I doesn't
have the stigma that that this has. I can hear
Eddie Murphy's white guy voice in my head at any
point in time and laugh hysterically. It's one of them.
(15:28):
I actually think it was one of the best. I
think it's one of the best kits of all time.
But Donald and Donald you were particularly hilarious doing that
as well. I do want to talk about the other
one for a second, because there were the two that
we started talking about where it worse sour in a
fantasy was Donald and then I was Donald in a fantasy.
The other one I do remember I gotta be honest,
(15:50):
feeling really uncomfortable doing And for those of you listening
who don't remember, Donald has the idea that we're going
to go to a I think it was called a
black and white party at a black fraternity and and
he said, I go, are you something I'm I'm paraphrasing.
I watched it. You want the lines because I watched
it to prepare phils, and it's you go you you say,
just so you know, you say, are you sure this
(16:11):
is gonna be okay? And Donald's like, I'm I'm going
as you. You're going as me. As long as you're
with me, it'll be fine. They're gonna think it's funny.
And so I remember reading this and being uncomfortable about it,
and I didn't I remember not wanting to do it,
to be honest, but I didn't want to disappoint anyone.
Everyone seemed to think it was funny. And again, I now,
(16:31):
as an established forty five year old man, I I
think I probably would have reacted differently. At the time,
I was kind of like, oh, well, I'm gonna go
along with with the joke. And I also remember being
so terrified because keep in mind, there were all these
black young men who were playing the college kids. And
I said to Scott Harris at the time, who was
(16:53):
a black man, and are one of our assistant directors.
I had this this this makeup on, and I said,
I'm so uncomfortable Scott that these men are not gonna
know what the joke is. The joke is that JD
gets his ass kicked and they throw him out a
second story window. But I said, you gotta. I remember
being really nervous and saying, like, please tell all these
(17:13):
men who were the extras, uh, what the outcome is.
What the joke of is that I'm that I'm my
character is an idiot and then they're gonna throw me
out a window. And I remember walking up to that
set and and feeling really, really uncomfortable. I do think
at the time I thought the joke was funny that
Donald leaving me. I remember he saw like a pretty girl,
and he goes with the ideas that we ring the doorbell,
(17:34):
and then I'm supposed to be next to my friend,
and then he goes Gina or something, and then he
walks off what happened last night? And then yeah, and
he leaves me. The guys open the door, they pull
me and beat the ship out of me off camera
and throw me out the second story window. Um. But
I remember at the time feeling uh super super uncomfortable.
But I'm ashamed at myself for not standing up and
coming to you, Bill. I feel like if I'd come
(17:56):
to you, you would have said we don't have to
do this. But I didn't. I was a whimp about it.
I well, you know, it's a good lesson for creators
of any kind. This is what I've been thinking out
about a lot. It's really important to me that on
a show that you guys. One of the thing reasons
I think this show worked is every cast member felt,
in my head would always come and go I think
(18:17):
this character would say something more like this, or I
think that it would be funnier if he or she
did this, or I think Carli, I think it'd be
better if she in turk, you know, instead of being
sexy or like this here. And we had that kind
of open collaboration even in that environment. Young actors and
actresses so don't want to be people that put a
(18:40):
stick in the spokes with the boss, you know what
I mean, and don't want to be the person that says,
are we sure we should be doing this that even
if you think you're the most open minded boss, showrunner,
movie director, anything in the world, when there's a differentiation
in power, people aren't going to always say I'm not
(19:00):
doing this, I don't want to do this. And that's
a weird realization for you. If you perceive yourself as
like the most open minded you know, of course they
would say that they know they're never gonna get fired,
in trouble, punished, have less material next week, et cetera.
It's just not the way humans work. And it was
a big kind of eye opener for me. The thing
(19:21):
I would tell you, guys, is the dynamic I was
just talking about is even more prevalent in writer's rooms
because they're those are the people that you're directly their boss.
And one of the hard realizations is even in the
most healthy writer's room, i'd still say white writers are
the majority in there. You know, even when there are
all sorts of people of color, you still don't want
(19:43):
to be the one in a writer's room, the one,
either white writer or person of color, that goes, hey, boss,
that thing that other people are laughing at, we shouldn't
do it because you know, to me, one of the
things I feel shitty about was that, you know Scrubs
that the last episode that did that as fifteen years ago.
(20:03):
It's not that long, you know what I mean? Dumb Dumbo.
Hear me out, Dumbo was Joel Elds Dumbo holds that
movie roughly. I want to say, let me get you
an accurate right, but look, you you know my point being,
do you is an interesting question because you said I
can't watch anymore. I used to love it. Is it
different for you if you go something is truly a
(20:25):
product of the time something we're talking, you know, so
they're gone with the wind argument, you know what I mean?
We we all know that there's still racist tropes in it,
and there's a lot of people they would argue to
the Dumbo's one just got that from Joel. But you know,
to me, I'm harsher on us because it is not
that old, do you know what I mean? And to me,
(20:46):
I do make excuses in my head. I'm asking you honestly,
because by the way, this ship all makes me super uncomfortable,
Like are you are you gonna be able to watch
Dumbo again? And and and go with your kids and
and have go Hey, it's product at the times. There's
certain things I don't But here's here's the crazy thing. Bill.
That was my favorite part of the movie, you know
(21:06):
what I mean. That moment was my favorite part of
the movie. And so now it's like, holy shit, you
know what I mean. I was at one point when
they did the live action version of it, I was like, man,
you know what I missed? I missed the crows. I
feel like an asshole and an idiot for that, you
know what I mean, Because I wasn't looking at it
as I wasn't. I wasn't looking at it as that's racist.
(21:29):
I was looking at it as that was the best
part of the movie. When I was a kid, I
loved that part of the movie. Look when I say
I'm ignorant, I was gonna say I feel I'm fairly
well educated. I was never that book smart. But Zack
and I were random. We're talking about this. Not only
did I like you not know that, I just let
you have Jim Crow laws. I didn't know Jim Crow
was a person with some white dude performing as a minstrel.
(21:52):
I had never heard in my entire life of June
tenth until I heard it from a stand up comic
like five years ago. And I'm like, that's a in
And he was talking about how oh hey, other news flash.
You know, Texas didn't stop slavery when the war was over,
And that's one, you know, one of the things that
weighs into this date. You know they took a second.
(22:13):
I didn't know about Black Wall Street, their Tulsa masker
until I watched Watchman on television. I mean, and and
uh so, educationally, ignorance is is crazy. It's not built
into our system any of this ship. Well that's the
that's the other thing that you know, black people have
been talking about for a long time. Look, you could
teach history, but teach my history too, you know what
(22:33):
I mean? You know what I mean for the longest,
you know, black history is a small part of the
textbooks that we read. When we're you know, you learn
more about the Confederacy and you learn more about you know,
that stuff before you know anything about what happened to
Africans coming to America and being you know, being slaves
(22:55):
and turned into slaves and stuff like that. So it's
only natural that nobody knows about these days. Nobody know,
you know what I mean, these are stains in America's
history regards the same. That's the same, Sarah. As far
as like what's being taught in schools, it's the same,
and it's and you know, it's really it's terrible. It's
not taught in Canada. It certainly wasn't when I was
(23:15):
growing up, and that needs to change. And that's why
we're here right now, you know what I mean. One
of the things that's coming out of this movement that's
really good is that a lot of us who thought
we were knowledgeable are able to call ourselves out and go,
I don't know ship I didn't I didn't know anything
about Juneteenth. I agree with Bill Watchman, which Joel has
(23:38):
written about extensively educated me on a lot of history.
And also just two documentaries I just recently watched, which
I highly recommend people watched, was something I just blew
my mind about the criminal justice system in this country,
Done Right. Yeah, and another one called Time, which is
(23:58):
a series about the bail system incarceration in this country.
I digressed just to say that in the spirit of
what Bill is saying, I feel like there's uh again.
This is a moment where we can be educating ourselves
and learning. Another thing that thought that came to my
mind was that over the years, Donald and I have
cringed at people dressing up as Turk and j D
(24:19):
for Halloween, and I've even gone out. I've even gone
out of my way to say to people, look, hold on,
if you're gonna go out dressed up as Turk this Halloween,
that's great. Just no black face, you know what I mean?
And I out of my way to say this, and
every year they tag us and we we cringe, and
I can't believe people are still doing it. And then
I had to call myself out and go, they're doing
(24:42):
it because I did it, because yeah, that's what That's
what somebody Somebody said that to me. Somebody said that
to me. Somebody was like, let me just finish the
thought they were so I I last night, I was like,
I was like tossing and turning, going a little bit
of eureka moment. I was like, that's why all those
fucking people probably did it. They all that it was
okay because we had done it, and that's really fucking
(25:04):
embarrassing to me. Well, yeah, that's that's I remember. I
posted that. I said, look, I feel like I have
to remind you people that when you go out this Halloween,
if you're gonna dress up as Turk and you're not
African American, it's not all right to go black face.
And somebody tweeted me back and I was like, yeah,
but Turk, but Donald, you did this. And they showed
(25:25):
a picture of you and me, me dressed in white
face and you dressed in black face, and was like,
well what about this? And I couldn't retort because I
was like, holy sh it, that's right. We did do
this and that's how And I didn't remember that we
had done that until that moment. You know. So there's
like these kids that watched the show that like that
we This is the thing that makes me cringe and
feel horrible and and and so regretful is that if
(25:49):
we contributed in any way to x amount of young
people being like, oh it's okay because they did it.
That's what I truly regret and I'm so apologetic about. Yeah,
I'm yeah, you know, Bill, Regardless of how much flak
you want to take for this, it's still we were
still in the moment, and we were still there and
(26:10):
we you know what I mean. And no, look the
painful the all of us on the call. I thought
it was funny as ship, and we were doing we
thought we were funny as ship. And it's the kind
of the arrogance that comes with success. And you know, man,
it's it's Uh. I guess I like to think the
uncomfortable conversations are good and uh, and people can say
(26:34):
the ship they want to say to me, I'm beating
myself up plenty. I also do want to talk about too.
I really respect to you guys all for doing this uh.
And Joel, I appreciate you kind of leading us along
here too with with questions and articles and stuff like that.
I'm really grateful. But the uh, there's also this wave
right now as artists and as actors and actresses and
(26:55):
writers directors that you know, people are going like, uh PC,
culture is gonna it's gonna ruin art. It's gonna ruin art,
you know, and it's not. Art's gonna be fine. Okay,
is the one thing I want to say. Art's gonna
be And I'm so old, you know we're talking about
we feel uncomfortable about that all comes off this. You know.
When I first got into writing comedy, you guys wouldn't
(27:16):
none of the four of you would believe it. But
nine of the ten writers rooms you would walk into,
if there were eight writers, it would be seven white
dudes and one woman. Okay. And even though there's still
tons of way to go, you know, as far as
uh equal representation for not only black writers on shows,
(27:37):
but people of color running creating their own shows, arts
better for it, you know, My point being, at every
stage of my career there's been some version of this,
and the end result is not that arts worse, because
I think TV especially is in a great error right now.
You know. For the content, art gets better for it,
(28:00):
you know, And so don't beat yourselves up, keep beating
me up, because I should have. I was older than
you and knew more than you know. Bill, I mean,
I I do, I do, I I'm I'm so sorry.
I feel like I shouldn't have done it. I feel like,
you know, it's not funny now. It wasn't funny then,
and I recognize that it hurt people, and I would
(28:21):
never ever do it again. I wish I could take
it back. The easiest thing to say, by the way,
because a lot of people you know have a lot
of different opinions, is it's my show, tough ship if
I but if I so, if I hurt your feelings,
I'm super super sorry. And if you're one of those
people that you're like, it didn't hurt my feelings and
(28:43):
shouldn't go, I'm glad that you feel that way. You're
welcome to but tough shit, it's uh, it's it's my show.
I get to do what I want in this occasion.
Look back, I know all you three as people. Man,
you're all incredibly open minded, incredibly philanthropic, probably mind, and
we're all able to still be family and close because
of it. So again, I'm probably over talking. It just
(29:06):
bumps me out when I hear people beating themselves over
something that was my fault. Well, I think it's it's
the good news is that this has inspired us to
educate ourselves and and and to continue to learn and
to not be uh arrogant about continuing to learn. And
well also it's it's where we are right now as
(29:27):
a as a society, as a pivotal point. And I
feel like, you know, more than ever my voice uh
can help you know what I mean. And it's something
that you know, I do want to talk about now.
I'm not gonna lie. For a long period of time,
I was very apprehensive and afraid to talk about stuff
(29:49):
because I you know, my fan base and all of
that ship. But this is way bigger than that. This
is this is my kids lives. This is my kids
kids lives. This is this will go one forever if somebody,
if we don't stand up to it, and I can't
sit back and not say anything about inequality anymore, regardless
(30:11):
of if it's against African Americans, if it's against gays,
I can't not say anything anymore women, if it's against whim,
I can't not say anything anymore. So it's not a
it's not a wake up call for me. I was.
I was woke before this, but I'm even more in
the fight now, you know what I mean. I feel
like this was, you know, for for all of us.
I feel like this was a kick in, a kick
(30:34):
in the in the private parts. But this is very
necessary kick in the private parts. Yeah, but it's a
but it's it's it's made it so each and every
one of us will check ourselves from here on out,
you know what I mean? And that's you know, Well,
do you want to do you want to say anything? Um,
You've been You've been helpful in getting uh us educated
(30:57):
in ways that I don't think we were, And I
just want to know if you want to add anything.
I guess I just have a question at this point.
I have one belief that when you're making an apology,
it's a three part process. And that process is a
knitting it, which we've done apologizing to the people that
were hurt, which you guys have done, but then see
(31:19):
and Donald did it a little bit just now. But
it's it's making a plan going forward so that not
only does this not happen again, but that we make
it better and easier for people coming up. And I
just I want to ask you guys like what you're
going to do because we know that their systemic racism,
and all of you have access in power in the
industry to make active changes. And so when I ask you,
(31:42):
you know, what do you think you can do? Yeah?
Going forward, I want to continue to learn and to
read all the books that have been recommended to me,
and I want to continue talking to my kids about race,
but now it will be more informed and um, most
importantly in terms of projects. Going forward, I will use
(32:04):
my voice every time something is not right. Yeah, I
think I agree. I I A lot of the stuff
I've been reading has inspired me to want to be
more involved. I think I for a while I was
just saying, well, I'm not I'm not a racist person
and my favorite human being on earth as a as
a black man, like you know, I was sort of
resting on these ridiculous laurels and not being proactive and
(32:26):
taking action. And now I think, with what's going on
in the country and what's what we're all reading about,
what we're all learning about watching these documentaries, I mean
I want to actively get involved in making a change. Bill. Yeah,
it looks um to me. It's a bigger question. I'll
tell you an embarrassing story is Um, it's it's involves
(32:50):
defining what the word enough means to you, Like I
am I doing enough right, and it's gonna be different
for every people and you can't define it. And I
am definitely the type of person that for a long time, UM,
felt like I'm doing enough? You like Spin City is uh?
You know, I had a gay black regular that it
(33:10):
wasn't the joke, you know what I mean, and got
all these awards for it early on, and so I
was always patting myself in the back. And then one
of the and you know, and and most of my
shows and staffs have been diverse in either in front
of behind the camera both and then uh, I was
trying to think about it because I thought you might
ask something like this. And I did a show once
(33:31):
and I don't want to mention the show because I
don't want to mention somebody that wasn't his fault in
which I wasn't going to run the show. So I
was going to write it with a uh, you know,
young writer that was on one of my shows, Uh,
supervise them, and I was really proud and exciting. The
show got picked up and we went to those t
C A s um the panel was. I was like,
this is cool because this network hasn't really done this.
(33:54):
This is an hour long television show that the four
regulars on the show, the four Pete four actors, and
these guys all sat up there are an Asian guy,
two black guys, and a Latina woman and you know,
and so I'm patting myself on the back and raising
my arms and one of the first questions is why
are two white guys right in this? And uh, the
(34:14):
you know, And it was a reporter because I've been
doing this for a long time that it was nice
to me and didn't make a huge issue out of it.
But the real question was why did I pick you
know what I mean, a dude. It's not it's not
that young guy's fault. Who any young guy going I've
never created the TV show my boss of this many
years is picking me to do one? You know what
(34:36):
I mean? Uh, any dude would go, fuck yeah, let's
do it, you know. And that should have been a
slightly longer search process to mock myself, you know. And
that's the change in thinking of what is enough. But
I made one of those key mistakes that for me
makes my enough not good enough anymore, you know. And uh,
(34:59):
it's really I don't know who the first person that
said it was, but one of these things, it was
all over the vernacular, was not enough to be not
a racist, it's enough Biana racist. And my son asked
what that meant, and I told him that it meant.
What meant for me was the countless times I've been
somewhere where ever heard some dude and we know, the
(35:22):
guy make a blatantly racist joke amongst a bunch of
people drinking beers to test the water. And I was fine, going,
all right, that guy's a dick. I'm never gonna I'm
not gonna laugh at all, and he's not gonna be
in my world. And I just don't laugh and move on. Uh.
And that's as shade different than having the courage to go, hey, dude,
(35:42):
shut the funk up, right. And so those those two metaphors,
that metaphor, to me, those two things are very similar.
So for what you know, for me, what it means
going forward is adjustin that ship. So that's where I'm at, Joe. Oh,
you know, I'm gonna be honest with you. I'm going
to educate myself more because so I so I can
(36:04):
talk about a lot of uh the history of of
of my people and be able to speak knowledgeable of
it and not talk out of my ass, you know
what I mean. That's one way that I'm going to
change who I am instead of being just okay with
all right. I'm an African American man in this industry,
(36:26):
and I've made it this far. I'm a great example,
uh you know. I'm also I'm I'm I'm a firm
believer of h of of bringing the next one up
and and and helping those behind me and who don't
have the opportunities that I have. And so I plan
(36:50):
on investing in you know, African American communities, whether it
be my time or or my knowledge of my experience,
I plan on doing that. I plan on, you know,
talking to the youth about my experience. Uh, you know,
(37:10):
And because at the end of at the at the
end of the day, it's you know, you can't sit
on I can't sit on everything that I've learned so far,
and just I'm not gonna I feel like if I
just sit on it and keep it for myself. I'm
a stingy individual and I'm not and I'm not pushing
forward equality and so I you know, all my experiences
(37:32):
and everything that I've gone through and and and educating
myself are in my uh immediate future. I'll say that
it's it's amazing that all of you guys want to
educate yourselves and our are starting that journey. I think
that is. I think this, especially as the black community
said over and over and like, that's the least, that's
(37:54):
the first thing, and I think it's it's an important part.
But I hope that especially as um you guys continue
on your journeys and continue to join shows, that you'll
look around at your staff and see who's missing and
call it out when you see it. Because to me,
especially as a black person who's been in Hollywood for
six years and walking around and seeing who gets to
(38:16):
come up and seeing you know, the way a lot
of young black people are treated on sets, the way
they're sort of frequently run out. You know, we've just
heard the thing um that was happening on Glee, and
a lot of these situations you know, again not that
long ago, five or six years ago, and it's still
a struggle. And so now that you guys have have
said all this and and and I think done the
first work of making sure that you know past mistakes
(38:38):
are called out and and you're being held accountable, which
is great. There's still so many people who are willing
to hide and just be like, oh that was long
ago and I didn't know. So I think this is
a great first step. Um, and I hope to see
you guys continue to do more. Is it all with Joel?
Is it always going to make me feel this uncomfortable?
Is that part of it? Yeah? I think so. I
mean I'm black and kin uncomfortable my whole life. I
(39:01):
think we'll be okay. By the way, I'm so glad
you said that I was going for the setups in
case you wanted to be Actually, she was like, no,
it won't be this uncomfortable. It's gonna be it's Is
there something Joel can do to make me feel better
about the way this is going? Joel? Can you make
this easier? I think it's good. I think it's good
(39:26):
in all aspects of our lives to have the uncomfortable conversations. Um.
There was a thing my father used to say, breakdowns
lead to breakthroughs. And uh, I think that's a good
to have some breakthroughs in our lives. I want to
think listening tomorrow, we'll be back with the regular podcast.
But we just wanted to We didn't want to just
send out a tweet or put out a statement. I
think it was something that was on all of our
(39:47):
minds to just kind of get together and talk. So
and U Zach is uh not speaking for you guys,
I didn't you know when I did this, I'm sorry.
I don't affect any of you. I didn't put out
any statement or anything like that because those always seemed
to me like, hey, I'm apologizing uh now that I
think I might be in trouble um and uh, you know,
(40:10):
you know, it's just part of the part of the
toxic nature of the internet and part of reality that
but uh, I would say to that, I'm sure you
guys are cool with it too. I'm willing to talk
to anybody in anyone in a cool, constructive forum about
any of this stuff, uh, including you know, my my
own shortcomings with it. And I'm still do you want
(40:30):
journalists to hit you up? Is that what you're saying.
I think things like this, you guys have a big
audience in this podcast, and I think anything where you
reach people, anything where you reach people, I hope you
guys will do it with me and continue to do that. Um,
you can shoot the ship and answer questions with no
rules and all that stuff. I'm I'm always down for
it if you guys want to Yes. Um, thank you guys.
Thank you Jowell for moderating and sort of really helping
(40:55):
be a great producer of the show. Sarah, our favorite Canadian,
Thanks for coming, Thanks for having me, and uh we
love you guys. Thank you for listening, and um tune
in tomorrow for the very last episode of season one
with guest stars Bill Lawrence and Chris the Miller. Um,
(41:15):
I think we should end in song. Donald know, yeah,
it's the first episode I've ever been on that. I
didn't say five, six, seven, eight, just did it though. No,
we're not gonna go one. Donald, Let's change the tone
and lead us in song. Thank you everybody for listening.
Sick seven eight stories about show we made about a
(41:36):
bunch of doctor nurses and jan stories. So get around here?
Are yet around here? Are mm hmm
Here's some stories about show we made about a bunch
of doctor nurses and stories, So get around here. Are
yetto around here? Hey, everybody, welcome to a special episode
(00:32):
of Fake Doctor's Real Friends. We assembled the gang here
a bit because we want to talk about black face
in Scrubs. There were three episodes in particular over the
years that had instances of black face. One was Me
in a fantasy being Donald, one was Sarah in a
fantasy being Donald, and the third was Donald and I
(00:54):
attending a black fraternity party, him and white face and
me and black face. So I think we all have
a lot we want to say. There's a lot going
on in the world right now, and um this I
think it's very good that these discussions are all coming up.
Not to use a hackneyed phrase, but it does feel
like a teachable moment for us all. And I thought, Bill,
(01:14):
you might want to start off since you led the
charge on this and and called the studio and said
you want the episodes taken down, So do you want
to just first talk about your decision to do that
and you're thinking behind it. Look, the most important reason
I wanted to do this, besides the fact that you know,
I just felt stupid and bummed out about it, and
(01:37):
it's my show, and you know, I'm like, fucking if
it makes me feel that crappy, I can, I can,
you know, I can take that out as I did
see some things directed at Donald and Zach and Sarah
and everybody should know that the reason that words showrunner
exists in television is because you're the gatekeeper and anything
(01:59):
that gets allowed on a show you have to ultimately
take responsibility for. So, first off, super sorry that any
of you guys had to deal with any stuff because,
you know, ultimately, even though we're all friends and it
was a super creative and kind of reciprocal environment with
you know, you guys, still ultimately at the end of
(02:19):
the day did and and uh, we're receptive to doing whatever,
you know, stuff we told you about. And then the
second thing you asked, it's a good starting place because
what's so interesting is it starts like ignorance. You know,
is even now I was reading stuff, you know, just
the last couple of weeks, um when I first became
(02:41):
aware of this is and you know it's because of
the podcast Donald Zack. You're revisiting old episodes and it's uh,
you know, I want to make sure we never sound
like we're making excuses. But one of the jokes amongst
us is that none of us have ever really watched
this show. When you were on a show, you make it,
you film it, you you shoot it, and you see
it on TV, and none of us have really watched it.
And for me, fifteen fourteen years and they're not ten
(03:03):
years since I saw the finale, but fifteen years since
I saw any of these episodes. And you guys saw
some stuff and you're like, oh man, you know there's
some issues stuff in there. You couldn't do today. It
didn't feel great and the Disney was really cool. We
didn't get asked to do this, you know. I called
him up and said, uh, um, hey, is a bunch
of episodes have black face in it and I want
to get rid of them. And uh, It's very interesting
(03:27):
because the PC cancel culture whatever on Twitter is like,
why did you pull the whole episodes? Why don't you
just edit those moments out and put them back on?
And I said, you know, to one person, I'm like, yeah,
well it's a pandemic. I don't really have an editing
facility up right now. And I'll probably do that, you know,
but the first thing I wanted to do is get
them off TVs. That bumped me out personally, and we
(03:50):
can talk about why if you guys want to. You know,
it just made me feel shitty. I want to say
one of the biggest night Naivea Tay things that I
have about it, and I'm and I'm very sorry for
for my participation, and I just want to first talk
about the ones we're both Sarah and I were dressing
up as donald and fantasies. Is that I really, frankly
at the time delineated in my mind between the traditional
(04:15):
black face that we've seen. I remember when when Ted
Danson did that black face thing, and I think it
was ninety three or so. I remember being being like shocked.
I remember being like, what the funk was that guy thinking?
And I was just out of high school, you know,
because he had done the you know, the one we
saw growing up and back when yeah it was back
when he was dating Whoopi Goldberg. Yeah, he was dating
(04:36):
Whipie Goldberg, who comes up a lot on this podcast. Um,
and I remember she was laughing at it, and remember
being like I remember even just as a as a
seventeen year old or whatever, being like, what the funk
is that guy thinking? But I never when we were
doing this, I'm embarrassed to say now, I never equated it.
I was like, I, oh, it's a fantasy where I'm
trying to be my best friend, and I never thought
(04:57):
it was the same thing. Um, it took a while.
It's go while. I took about when Donald I started
the podcast. I mean, obviously I cringed a little bit
about it in years, but when not Donald I first
started the podcast, he mentioned, he goes, I mean, we
did black face on this show, and I and I
cringed just to hear Donald, I didn't even tell you this, Donald,
but to hear you say it out loud, it really
made me feel so shitty and embarrassed and um and
(05:21):
and I and I just feel stupid that at the
time I didn't say to you, Bill. I mean again,
I like, I appreciate you taking responsibility and going you know,
it was my show, but I didn't say to you
at the time, hey this is wrong, Hey we shouldn't
do this. I I could have easily spoken up, but
I didn't. I didn't see it. And that's how the
climates change. You know, where everybody used to be able
to where any joke was you know, was passible as
(05:43):
a joke as long as it was meant to make
people laugh. Nowadays there are boundaries on what you can
you know, do as far as jokes going. I know
a lot of comedians and stuff like that are dealing
with that issue as well. You know, how do you
make something that's hurt so many people? How do you
(06:03):
use that as comedy? Is the argument that everyone's having
having now, and I think people can still do it. It
It depends on the voice, you know. Um, well, yeah,
I agree with you. I feel personally a lot of
people feel this way as well. Uh. Dave Chappelle is
one of those artists who can go out and talk
about issues that we all kind of have. Some people
(06:24):
have pain when it's involved, and people will laugh still,
you know what I mean. I I you know, I
just feel like, you know, I used to watch movies
when I was a kid that with with stars that
I look up to, like, you know, Eddie Murphy movie
really comes to mind when I think about this, and
it's you know which movie about trading places. Dude. It's
(06:47):
one of the funniest scenes in the whole movie to me,
when I was a kid, I me and my friends
used to do it together where dan Ackroyd walks on
the train dressed as a Jamaican rastafari, you know what
I mean, and he's ain'to his face black and they
cut into him putting the makeup on, and he's using
shoe polish and ship like that to put it on
(07:08):
when he walked into the thing, and I just remember
laughing my ass off. And I know if that came
up now, I'd be like, oh, ship, and I wouldn't
laugh because now I know, thanks to Joel, our producer,
I'm way more educated than I was before I knew
black face was bad, you know what I mean. And
when Sarah and Zach put on makeup to look like me,
(07:30):
I didn't look at it as a racist thing. I
looked at it as, Oh, we're trying to tell a
joke that he fantasizes he wishes he was me, and
she fantasized, and he fantasizes that his girlfriend, right, you
know what I mean. But then when you go and
you listen to where all of this comes from and
and what Jim Crow is or was, And you know,
(07:52):
I'm gonna be honest with you. I knew Jim Crow
was something from the South that oppressed black people, but
I thought it was a white I'm be honest with you.
I thought it was a white man named Jim Crow
who was just a fucking you know who made it
so people couldn't go into into into and performing places
like that because people be like, oh, it's the Jim
Crow South. I had no idea. I had no idea
(08:15):
that it was Jim Crow was a white man dressed
up as a black man, trying to show America this
is how stupid black people are. And it goes so
deep for me that now I can't even watch Dumbo
now because the crows in Dumbo are crows, and they're
(08:35):
supposed to be black, and they've got all of this
slick talk and this talking job. I don't see, you know,
I don't seem just about everything all of this ship.
Now it's like, oh, I know where it comes from.
And the fact that their crows doing it and the
fucking dude's name was Jim Crow is even more of
a mind fun for me. So it's like, how you know,
(08:55):
and and this is what Disney was using at the
time to educate children on how black people were subtly
and it was like, it's like, holy shit, it starts
with ignorance, right, Uh. And you know, we can talk
about the history of it because I'm more educated than
I ever thought I would be now just but burying
myself in reading and stuff. But you guys might have
(09:17):
even noticed this is where ignorance starts. We differentiated between
kind of that Jim Crow like what you remember Al
Jolson almost a shoe polished black face thing, and we
did that bit once on the show with the intention
of showing how idiotic it was even now talking to
other view Yeah, we did it that one time with
(09:37):
Turk and j D when Turk had white makeup on
j D had black makeup on. J D got his
ass kicked. I'm like, no, we did it the other
two times that Elliott and j D were both made
up to look like Turk and none of us had
associated those is the same thing, you know what I mean?
And uh and uh, you know, I think we were
talking a little bit about it. You almost we almost thought,
(10:00):
I think that we had, in a bad way a
free pass to not have those thoughts back then because
we were so fucking proud of ourselves for doing, you know,
very diverse show in front of them behind the camera,
great black and white friendship that exists as a real
black and white friendship, great interracial couple who are stars
of the show, you know, and so uh, it was
(10:23):
almost a block of arrogance of like, oh, we're so
good in what we're portraying and doing and showing, you know,
we could never venture into muddy waters. And even now
with that same ignorance, you know, we never really connected
the two of those things until now. And you do
the reading, it's not any different, you know. And I'm
(10:44):
gonna I'm over talking, and then I'm gonna shut up
and Donald and everybody talk. And I do want to say.
One of the things that bothers me about the Internet
that that's happening is there's a big both sides is
some thing, you know, And I'm getting tons of little
connection tissue when I read now, going, well, you're gonna
pull that issue. You where that episode where Donald plays
cal Turk and as a white guy insurance agent, I'm like, no,
(11:05):
I'm not because as a white guy that does not
based in any systemic racism for me or history or
any negativity. I just don't. I just for me. I
just wanted to separate that as well. I find that
kind of argument you to be so counterproductive and ridiculous. Sorry, Donald, No,
it's so good dude. Look man, first of all, I
applaud you for saying, you know what this bothers me.
(11:27):
I want to take this out, you know what I mean,
and educating yourself like this was an educational thing for
me too, because when we made it, like my whole
idea of this whole thing was like, well, look, if
we could see g this opportunity at the time, it
would be my face on Sarah's body. And that's how
we would have got around all of that stuff. Just
to remind everyone, Donald, just remind everyone in the context
(11:47):
of that, because just with the Saurah one, for example,
it was, as I recall, j D was fantasizing what
if his girlfriend and his best friend were one person? Right,
That's how he came right, That's one of the one
of the three lines show was that you loved Turk
almost even at the end. Remember is is you tell
Elliott when you finally marry or I love you more
than Turk, and it's the biggest thing you've ever said.
(12:10):
And when you're living with Elliott, you know you the
only way it could be any better is if she
was Turk. You love him so much, right, right? Sorry,
so sorry, don't go back to your c So my whole,
my whole thing was like, oh, well, if if we
were now, we would do a CG situation and then
we wouldn't have to paint anybody. But when you do
the research and you look back at it, Bill, You're
(12:30):
absolutely right. It comes. It's a systemic thing. It comes
from a place of people being very fucked up to
black people towards the end of slavery, to dehumanize them.
And so it's like it's like you're caught between a
rock and a hard place. For me, I'm like, I'm
(12:50):
not hurt by it. I'm more disappointed that it happened.
But I also believe in comedy too, right, So you know,
there are things that some of my favorite comedians saying
things that are in some of my favorite movies that
I've laughed out loud at and now I'm finding myself
having to check that, like wait, hold up, you know,
(13:11):
let's before we start laughing at all of the things
that we found funny in the past. Let's journey back
to where it started at. And that's the only that's
the reason why for me. Uh, I'm i'm I'm I'm
very I'm I'm Bill. I'll be honest with you. I'm
proud of you for saying, you know what, this bothered me.
I'm taking this out. Uh, you know it's not it's
(13:32):
not you can't do that, you know, I don't. I
don't want to revolve around like, uh, we did good.
We're would be so proud of you know what you mean.
But no, but that's not that's that's that's not what
I mean by it. You know, I feel like you felt,
oh shit, this is an issue and it's not all
right with me. So I want to remove it simple
(13:53):
go the way to simplify it. Donald is for everybody,
I think is and by the way, you know, there's
always a slippery slope in the arts of what you
know you're allowed to remove, keeping, et cetera. But for me,
and I'm not saying it's right for everybody. Uh, it's
my show. I'm really proud of it. And um, those
(14:15):
moments nobody pressured me, and those moments make me feel
like ship make me feel stupid and uh and by
the way, there's gonna be other moments in the show
that make other people angry and go you want to
remove those And I'm going back through and watching the shows.
And it's nothing that has bothered me as much as
these three things. You know what I mean? This isn't
and so for a good rule, Yeah, it's what's the
(14:38):
big deal, I'm gonna pull three things out that make
me feel like ship because now entertainment um exists in perpetuity,
and uh, I should be allowed to do that. You know,
it's not a big deal. I'm glad you mentioned the
thing about Donald being a white guy because I've I've
seen that a lot too. And there's and and I
think that it's important to differentiate that there was not
(15:03):
this horrible history of people who were persecuted and and
and and mocked and and and and made fun of.
It's it's a completely different thing. And I I doesn't
have the stigma that that this has. I can hear
Eddie Murphy's white guy voice in my head at any
point in time and laugh hysterically. It's one of them.
(15:28):
I actually think it was one of the best. I
think it's one of the best kits of all time.
But Donald and Donald you were particularly hilarious doing that
as well. I do want to talk about the other
one for a second, because there were the two that
we started talking about where it worse sour in a
fantasy was Donald and then I was Donald in a fantasy.
The other one I do remember I gotta be honest,
(15:50):
feeling really uncomfortable doing And for those of you listening
who don't remember, Donald has the idea that we're going
to go to a I think it was called a
black and white party at a black fraternity and and
he said, I go, are you something I'm I'm paraphrasing.
I watched it. You want the lines because I watched
it to prepare phils, and it's you go you you say,
just so you know, you say, are you sure this
(16:11):
is gonna be okay? And Donald's like, I'm I'm going
as you. You're going as me. As long as you're
with me, it'll be fine. They're gonna think it's funny.
And so I remember reading this and being uncomfortable about it,
and I didn't I remember not wanting to do it,
to be honest, but I didn't want to disappoint anyone.
Everyone seemed to think it was funny. And again, I now,
(16:31):
as an established forty five year old man, I I
think I probably would have reacted differently. At the time,
I was kind of like, oh, well, I'm gonna go
along with with the joke. And I also remember being
so terrified because keep in mind, there were all these
black young men who were playing the college kids. And
I said to Scott Harris at the time, who was
(16:53):
a black man, and are one of our assistant directors.
I had this this this makeup on, and I said,
I'm so uncomfortable Scott that these men are not gonna
know what the joke is. The joke is that JD
gets his ass kicked and they throw him out a
second story window. But I said, you gotta. I remember
being really nervous and saying, like, please tell all these
(17:13):
men who were the extras, uh, what the outcome is.
What the joke of is that I'm that I'm my
character is an idiot and then they're gonna throw me
out a window. And I remember walking up to that
set and and feeling really, really uncomfortable. I do think
at the time I thought the joke was funny that
Donald leaving me. I remember he saw like a pretty girl,
and he goes with the ideas that we ring the doorbell,
(17:34):
and then I'm supposed to be next to my friend,
and then he goes Gina or something, and then he
walks off what happened last night? And then yeah, and
he leaves me. The guys open the door, they pull
me and beat the ship out of me off camera
and throw me out the second story window. Um. But
I remember at the time feeling uh super super uncomfortable.
But I'm ashamed at myself for not standing up and
coming to you, Bill. I feel like if I'd come
(17:56):
to you, you would have said we don't have to
do this. But I didn't. I was a whimp about it.
I well, you know, it's a good lesson for creators
of any kind. This is what I've been thinking out
about a lot. It's really important to me that on
a show that you guys. One of the thing reasons
I think this show worked is every cast member felt,
in my head would always come and go I think
(18:17):
this character would say something more like this, or I
think that it would be funnier if he or she
did this, or I think Carli, I think it'd be
better if she in turk, you know, instead of being
sexy or like this here. And we had that kind
of open collaboration even in that environment. Young actors and
actresses so don't want to be people that put a
(18:40):
stick in the spokes with the boss, you know what
I mean, and don't want to be the person that says,
are we sure we should be doing this that even
if you think you're the most open minded boss, showrunner,
movie director, anything in the world, when there's a differentiation
in power, people aren't going to always say I'm not
(19:00):
doing this, I don't want to do this. And that's
a weird realization for you. If you perceive yourself as
like the most open minded you know, of course they
would say that they know they're never gonna get fired,
in trouble, punished, have less material next week, et cetera.
It's just not the way humans work. And it was
a big kind of eye opener for me. The thing
(19:21):
I would tell you, guys, is the dynamic I was
just talking about is even more prevalent in writer's rooms
because they're those are the people that you're directly their boss.
And one of the hard realizations is even in the
most healthy writer's room, i'd still say white writers are
the majority in there. You know, even when there are
all sorts of people of color, you still don't want
(19:43):
to be the one in a writer's room, the one,
either white writer or person of color, that goes, hey, boss,
that thing that other people are laughing at, we shouldn't
do it because you know, to me, one of the
things I feel shitty about was that, you know Scrubs
that the last episode that did that as fifteen years ago.
(20:03):
It's not that long, you know what I mean? Dumb Dumbo.
Hear me out, Dumbo was Joel Elds Dumbo holds that
movie roughly. I want to say, let me get you
an accurate right, but look, you you know my point being,
do you is an interesting question because you said I
can't watch anymore. I used to love it. Is it
different for you if you go something is truly a
(20:25):
product of the time something we're talking, you know, so
they're gone with the wind argument, you know what I mean?
We we all know that there's still racist tropes in it,
and there's a lot of people they would argue to
the Dumbo's one just got that from Joel. But you know,
to me, I'm harsher on us because it is not
that old, do you know what I mean? And to me,
(20:46):
I do make excuses in my head. I'm asking you honestly,
because by the way, this ship all makes me super uncomfortable,
Like are you are you gonna be able to watch
Dumbo again? And and and go with your kids and
and have go Hey, it's product at the times. There's
certain things I don't But here's here's the crazy thing. Bill.
That was my favorite part of the movie, you know
(21:06):
what I mean. That moment was my favorite part of
the movie. And so now it's like, holy shit, you
know what I mean. I was at one point when
they did the live action version of it, I was like, man,
you know what I missed? I missed the crows. I
feel like an asshole and an idiot for that, you
know what I mean, Because I wasn't looking at it
as I wasn't. I wasn't looking at it as that's racist.
(21:29):
I was looking at it as that was the best
part of the movie. When I was a kid, I
loved that part of the movie. Look when I say
I'm ignorant, I was gonna say I feel I'm fairly
well educated. I was never that book smart. But Zack
and I were random. We're talking about this. Not only
did I like you not know that, I just let
you have Jim Crow laws. I didn't know Jim Crow
was a person with some white dude performing as a minstrel.
(21:52):
I had never heard in my entire life of June
tenth until I heard it from a stand up comic
like five years ago. And I'm like, that's a in
And he was talking about how oh hey, other news flash.
You know, Texas didn't stop slavery when the war was over,
And that's one, you know, one of the things that
weighs into this date. You know they took a second.
(22:13):
I didn't know about Black Wall Street, their Tulsa masker
until I watched Watchman on television. I mean, and and
uh so, educationally, ignorance is is crazy. It's not built
into our system any of this ship. Well that's the
that's the other thing that you know, black people have
been talking about for a long time. Look, you could
teach history, but teach my history too, you know what
(22:33):
I mean? You know what I mean for the longest,
you know, black history is a small part of the
textbooks that we read. When we're you know, you learn
more about the Confederacy and you learn more about you know,
that stuff before you know anything about what happened to
Africans coming to America and being you know, being slaves
(22:55):
and turned into slaves and stuff like that. So it's
only natural that nobody knows about these days. Nobody know,
you know what I mean, these are stains in America's
history regards the same. That's the same, Sarah. As far
as like what's being taught in schools, it's the same,
and it's and you know, it's really it's terrible. It's
not taught in Canada. It certainly wasn't when I was
(23:15):
growing up, and that needs to change. And that's why
we're here right now, you know what I mean. One
of the things that's coming out of this movement that's
really good is that a lot of us who thought
we were knowledgeable are able to call ourselves out and go,
I don't know ship I didn't I didn't know anything
about Juneteenth. I agree with Bill Watchman, which Joel has
(23:38):
written about extensively educated me on a lot of history.
And also just two documentaries I just recently watched, which
I highly recommend people watched, was something I just blew
my mind about the criminal justice system in this country,
Done Right. Yeah, and another one called Time, which is
(23:58):
a series about the bail system incarceration in this country.
I digressed just to say that in the spirit of
what Bill is saying, I feel like there's uh again.
This is a moment where we can be educating ourselves
and learning. Another thing that thought that came to my
mind was that over the years, Donald and I have
cringed at people dressing up as Turk and j D
(24:19):
for Halloween, and I've even gone out. I've even gone
out of my way to say to people, look, hold on,
if you're gonna go out dressed up as Turk this Halloween,
that's great. Just no black face, you know what I mean?
And I out of my way to say this, and
every year they tag us and we we cringe, and
I can't believe people are still doing it. And then
I had to call myself out and go, they're doing
(24:42):
it because I did it, because yeah, that's what That's
what somebody Somebody said that to me. Somebody said that
to me. Somebody was like, let me just finish the
thought they were so I I last night, I was like,
I was like tossing and turning, going a little bit
of eureka moment. I was like, that's why all those
fucking people probably did it. They all that it was
okay because we had done it, and that's really fucking
(25:04):
embarrassing to me. Well, yeah, that's that's I remember. I
posted that. I said, look, I feel like I have
to remind you people that when you go out this Halloween,
if you're gonna dress up as Turk and you're not
African American, it's not all right to go black face.
And somebody tweeted me back and I was like, yeah,
but Turk, but Donald, you did this. And they showed
(25:25):
a picture of you and me, me dressed in white
face and you dressed in black face, and was like,
well what about this? And I couldn't retort because I
was like, holy sh it, that's right. We did do
this and that's how And I didn't remember that we
had done that until that moment. You know. So there's
like these kids that watched the show that like that
we This is the thing that makes me cringe and
feel horrible and and and so regretful is that if
(25:49):
we contributed in any way to x amount of young
people being like, oh it's okay because they did it.
That's what I truly regret and I'm so apologetic about. Yeah,
I'm yeah, you know, Bill, Regardless of how much flak
you want to take for this, it's still we were
still in the moment, and we were still there and
(26:10):
we you know what I mean. And no, look the
painful the all of us on the call. I thought
it was funny as ship, and we were doing we
thought we were funny as ship. And it's the kind
of the arrogance that comes with success. And you know, man,
it's it's Uh. I guess I like to think the
uncomfortable conversations are good and uh, and people can say
(26:34):
the ship they want to say to me, I'm beating
myself up plenty. I also do want to talk about too.
I really respect to you guys all for doing this uh.
And Joel, I appreciate you kind of leading us along
here too with with questions and articles and stuff like that.
I'm really grateful. But the uh, there's also this wave
right now as artists and as actors and actresses and
(26:55):
writers directors that you know, people are going like, uh PC,
culture is gonna it's gonna ruin art. It's gonna ruin art,
you know, and it's not. Art's gonna be fine. Okay,
is the one thing I want to say. Art's gonna
be And I'm so old, you know we're talking about
we feel uncomfortable about that all comes off this. You know.
When I first got into writing comedy, you guys wouldn't
(27:16):
none of the four of you would believe it. But
nine of the ten writers rooms you would walk into,
if there were eight writers, it would be seven white
dudes and one woman. Okay. And even though there's still
tons of way to go, you know, as far as
uh equal representation for not only black writers on shows,
(27:37):
but people of color running creating their own shows, arts
better for it, you know, My point being, at every
stage of my career there's been some version of this,
and the end result is not that arts worse, because
I think TV especially is in a great error right now.
You know. For the content, art gets better for it,
(28:00):
you know, And so don't beat yourselves up, keep beating
me up, because I should have. I was older than
you and knew more than you know. Bill, I mean,
I I do, I do, I I'm I'm so sorry.
I feel like I shouldn't have done it. I feel like,
you know, it's not funny now. It wasn't funny then,
and I recognize that it hurt people, and I would
(28:21):
never ever do it again. I wish I could take
it back. The easiest thing to say, by the way,
because a lot of people you know have a lot
of different opinions, is it's my show, tough ship if
I but if I so, if I hurt your feelings,
I'm super super sorry. And if you're one of those
people that you're like, it didn't hurt my feelings and
(28:43):
shouldn't go, I'm glad that you feel that way. You're
welcome to but tough shit, it's uh, it's it's my show.
I get to do what I want in this occasion.
Look back, I know all you three as people. Man,
you're all incredibly open minded, incredibly philanthropic, probably mind, and
we're all able to still be family and close because
of it. So again, I'm probably over talking. It just
(29:06):
bumps me out when I hear people beating themselves over
something that was my fault. Well, I think it's it's
the good news is that this has inspired us to
educate ourselves and and and to continue to learn and
to not be uh arrogant about continuing to learn. And
well also it's it's where we are right now as
(29:27):
a as a society, as a pivotal point. And I
feel like, you know, more than ever my voice uh
can help you know what I mean. And it's something
that you know, I do want to talk about now.
I'm not gonna lie. For a long period of time,
I was very apprehensive and afraid to talk about stuff
(29:49):
because I you know, my fan base and all of
that ship. But this is way bigger than that. This
is this is my kids lives. This is my kids
kids lives. This is this will go one forever if somebody,
if we don't stand up to it, and I can't
sit back and not say anything about inequality anymore, regardless
(30:11):
of if it's against African Americans, if it's against gays,
I can't not say anything anymore women, if it's against whim,
I can't not say anything anymore. So it's not a
it's not a wake up call for me. I was.
I was woke before this, but I'm even more in
the fight now, you know what I mean. I feel
like this was, you know, for for all of us.
I feel like this was a kick in, a kick
(30:34):
in the in the private parts. But this is very
necessary kick in the private parts. Yeah, but it's a
but it's it's it's made it so each and every
one of us will check ourselves from here on out,
you know what I mean? And that's you know, Well,
do you want to do you want to say anything? Um,
You've been You've been helpful in getting uh us educated
(30:57):
in ways that I don't think we were, And I
just want to know if you want to add anything.
I guess I just have a question at this point.
I have one belief that when you're making an apology,
it's a three part process. And that process is a
knitting it, which we've done apologizing to the people that
were hurt, which you guys have done, but then see
(31:19):
and Donald did it a little bit just now. But
it's it's making a plan going forward so that not
only does this not happen again, but that we make
it better and easier for people coming up. And I
just I want to ask you guys like what you're
going to do because we know that their systemic racism,
and all of you have access in power in the
industry to make active changes. And so when I ask you,
(31:42):
you know, what do you think you can do? Yeah?
Going forward, I want to continue to learn and to
read all the books that have been recommended to me,
and I want to continue talking to my kids about race,
but now it will be more informed and um, most
importantly in terms of projects. Going forward, I will use
(32:04):
my voice every time something is not right. Yeah, I
think I agree. I I A lot of the stuff
I've been reading has inspired me to want to be
more involved. I think I for a while I was
just saying, well, I'm not I'm not a racist person
and my favorite human being on earth as a as
a black man, like you know, I was sort of
resting on these ridiculous laurels and not being proactive and
(32:26):
taking action. And now I think, with what's going on
in the country and what's what we're all reading about,
what we're all learning about watching these documentaries, I mean
I want to actively get involved in making a change. Bill. Yeah,
it looks um to me. It's a bigger question. I'll
tell you an embarrassing story is Um, it's it's involves
(32:50):
defining what the word enough means to you, Like I
am I doing enough right, and it's gonna be different
for every people and you can't define it. And I
am definitely the type of person that for a long time, UM,
felt like I'm doing enough? You like Spin City is uh?
You know, I had a gay black regular that it
(33:10):
wasn't the joke, you know what I mean, and got
all these awards for it early on, and so I
was always patting myself in the back. And then one
of the and you know, and and most of my
shows and staffs have been diverse in either in front
of behind the camera both and then uh, I was
trying to think about it because I thought you might
ask something like this. And I did a show once
(33:31):
and I don't want to mention the show because I
don't want to mention somebody that wasn't his fault in
which I wasn't going to run the show. So I
was going to write it with a uh, you know,
young writer that was on one of my shows, Uh,
supervise them, and I was really proud and exciting. The
show got picked up and we went to those t
C A s um the panel was. I was like,
this is cool because this network hasn't really done this.
(33:54):
This is an hour long television show that the four
regulars on the show, the four Pete four actors, and
these guys all sat up there are an Asian guy,
two black guys, and a Latina woman and you know,
and so I'm patting myself on the back and raising
my arms and one of the first questions is why
are two white guys right in this? And uh, the
(34:14):
you know, And it was a reporter because I've been
doing this for a long time that it was nice
to me and didn't make a huge issue out of it.
But the real question was why did I pick you
know what I mean, a dude. It's not it's not
that young guy's fault. Who any young guy going I've
never created the TV show my boss of this many
years is picking me to do one? You know what
(34:36):
I mean? Uh, any dude would go, fuck yeah, let's
do it, you know. And that should have been a
slightly longer search process to mock myself, you know. And
that's the change in thinking of what is enough. But
I made one of those key mistakes that for me
makes my enough not good enough anymore, you know. And uh,
(34:59):
it's really I don't know who the first person that
said it was, but one of these things, it was
all over the vernacular, was not enough to be not
a racist, it's enough Biana racist. And my son asked
what that meant, and I told him that it meant.
What meant for me was the countless times I've been
somewhere where ever heard some dude and we know, the
(35:22):
guy make a blatantly racist joke amongst a bunch of
people drinking beers to test the water. And I was fine, going,
all right, that guy's a dick. I'm never gonna I'm
not gonna laugh at all, and he's not gonna be
in my world. And I just don't laugh and move on. Uh.
And that's as shade different than having the courage to go, hey, dude,
(35:42):
shut the funk up, right. And so those those two metaphors,
that metaphor, to me, those two things are very similar.
So for what you know, for me, what it means
going forward is adjustin that ship. So that's where I'm at, Joe. Oh,
you know, I'm gonna be honest with you. I'm going
to educate myself more because so I so I can
(36:04):
talk about a lot of uh the history of of
of my people and be able to speak knowledgeable of
it and not talk out of my ass, you know
what I mean. That's one way that I'm going to
change who I am instead of being just okay with
all right. I'm an African American man in this industry,
(36:26):
and I've made it this far. I'm a great example,
uh you know. I'm also I'm I'm I'm a firm
believer of h of of bringing the next one up
and and and helping those behind me and who don't
have the opportunities that I have. And so I plan
(36:50):
on investing in you know, African American communities, whether it
be my time or or my knowledge of my experience,
I plan on doing that. I plan on, you know,
talking to the youth about my experience. Uh, you know,
(37:10):
And because at the end of at the at the
end of the day, it's you know, you can't sit
on I can't sit on everything that I've learned so far,
and just I'm not gonna I feel like if I
just sit on it and keep it for myself. I'm
a stingy individual and I'm not and I'm not pushing
forward equality and so I you know, all my experiences
(37:32):
and everything that I've gone through and and and educating
myself are in my uh immediate future. I'll say that
it's it's amazing that all of you guys want to
educate yourselves and our are starting that journey. I think
that is. I think this, especially as the black community
said over and over and like, that's the least, that's
(37:54):
the first thing, and I think it's it's an important part.
But I hope that especially as um you guys continue
on your journeys and continue to join shows, that you'll
look around at your staff and see who's missing and
call it out when you see it. Because to me,
especially as a black person who's been in Hollywood for
six years and walking around and seeing who gets to
(38:16):
come up and seeing you know, the way a lot
of young black people are treated on sets, the way
they're sort of frequently run out. You know, we've just
heard the thing um that was happening on Glee, and
a lot of these situations you know, again not that
long ago, five or six years ago, and it's still
a struggle. And so now that you guys have have
said all this and and and I think done the
first work of making sure that you know past mistakes
(38:38):
are called out and and you're being held accountable, which
is great. There's still so many people who are willing
to hide and just be like, oh that was long
ago and I didn't know. So I think this is
a great first step. Um, and I hope to see
you guys continue to do more. Is it all with Joel?
Is it always going to make me feel this uncomfortable?
Is that part of it? Yeah? I think so. I
mean I'm black and kin uncomfortable my whole life. I
(39:01):
think we'll be okay. By the way, I'm so glad
you said that I was going for the setups in
case you wanted to be Actually, she was like, no,
it won't be this uncomfortable. It's gonna be it's Is
there something Joel can do to make me feel better
about the way this is going? Joel? Can you make
this easier? I think it's good. I think it's good
(39:26):
in all aspects of our lives to have the uncomfortable conversations. Um.
There was a thing my father used to say, breakdowns
lead to breakthroughs. And uh, I think that's a good
to have some breakthroughs in our lives. I want to
think listening tomorrow, we'll be back with the regular podcast.
But we just wanted to We didn't want to just
send out a tweet or put out a statement. I
think it was something that was on all of our
(39:47):
minds to just kind of get together and talk. So
and U Zach is uh not speaking for you guys,
I didn't you know when I did this, I'm sorry.
I don't affect any of you. I didn't put out
any statement or anything like that because those always seemed
to me like, hey, I'm apologizing uh now that I
think I might be in trouble um and uh, you know,
(40:10):
you know, it's just part of the part of the
toxic nature of the internet and part of reality that
but uh, I would say to that, I'm sure you
guys are cool with it too. I'm willing to talk
to anybody in anyone in a cool, constructive forum about
any of this stuff, uh, including you know, my my
own shortcomings with it. And I'm still do you want
(40:30):
journalists to hit you up? Is that what you're saying.
I think things like this, you guys have a big
audience in this podcast, and I think anything where you
reach people, anything where you reach people, I hope you
guys will do it with me and continue to do that. Um,
you can shoot the ship and answer questions with no
rules and all that stuff. I'm I'm always down for
it if you guys want to Yes. Um, thank you guys.
Thank you Jowell for moderating and sort of really helping
(40:55):
be a great producer of the show. Sarah, our favorite Canadian,
Thanks for coming, Thanks for having me, and uh we
love you guys. Thank you for listening, and um tune
in tomorrow for the very last episode of season one
with guest stars Bill Lawrence and Chris the Miller. Um,
(41:15):
I think we should end in song. Donald know, yeah,
it's the first episode I've ever been on that. I
didn't say five, six, seven, eight, just did it though. No,
we're not gonna go one. Donald, Let's change the tone
and lead us in song. Thank you everybody for listening.
Sick seven eight stories about show we made about a
(41:36):
bunch of doctor nurses and jan stories. So get around here?
Are yet around here? Are mm hmm
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