Studs, Busts and Sleepers | Quarterback + Tight End Rankings and Tiers (Ep. 254) - FantasyPros Dynasty Football Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hello everybody, Welcome into the Fantasy Pros Dynasty Football Podcast.
I'm Ryan Warmley, joined as always by Scott Bogman and
by Pat fitz Morris and Fellows. We are continuing our
series of running through some rankings and tiers for every position.
We have done the running backs, we have done the receivers.
We are now doing both quarterbacks and tight ends within
the same episode. So we're not going like fifty names

(00:23):
deep obviously for these positions. We're going to go four
tiers deep on each position, and that's going to get
us to twenty nine quarterbacks, twenty eight tight ends. Obviously
for these positions. As we get later, especially on the
tight end side, we'll kind of move pretty quickly through
some of those names. We're going to go through the
same way we've done with the running backs and receivers,
though tier by tier, kind of reacting to the guys

(00:43):
we think are too high, too low, just right where
YouTube disagree with each other, all that fun stuff, And
we're going to start with the quarterbacks before we jump
in fits. How do you feel about these positions as
opposed to running back and receiver, which are like the
more backbone of again super Fly obviously quarterback support, but
in general, running back and receivers, like you're going to
have the most discussion, there's the most names. They are

(01:05):
the backbone of the dynasty roster. How do you feel
like approaching trying to get rankings and tiers for these
more I don't call them luxury positions, but kind of
the more one offs.

Speaker 2 (01:14):
Yeah, I mean, definitely not luxury if you're doing super
flex for quarterback or tight end premium, which has ramped
up the importance of that position. So yeah, I mean
you always feel like they're a little easier to dress
because you only have to start one of these guys,
well at least in one QB dynasty or one tight end,

(01:35):
so you know, in one QB one QB dynasty always
ample supply and it's almost hard to trade good quarterbacks
if you have a glot of them. And it can
be the same thing for tight ends, although it seems
like no one is ever sitting on a bunch of
good tight ends because there aren't many to go around.

Speaker 1 (01:55):
Yeah, the super flex versus one QB is very different,
and I think we can maybe highlight this as we're
going through our tier. There are names that I think
even though all quarterbacks are more valuable in super flex,
there are names that I am more interested in them
in one QB. I think somebody like Anthony Richardson, if
you're taking like a late round flyer on him, I
would rather have in a league where he can be
a differentiator as opposed to a league like superflex, where

(02:17):
like you need startable guys and if he's bad, he's
not startable, where if he's good, he could be a
needle mover in one QB. So he's pretty far down
the list, but he's an example the type of guy that,
even though they're all more valuable in the one format
of Superflex, they can still kind of be more valuable
relative to the other players of their position in maybe
one QB versus superflex. What's your kind of approach when

(02:38):
looking at these smaller, you know, shorter list kind of rankings,
heer bagman.

Speaker 3 (02:43):
Yeah, I think there's just less granular, right. I think
that it's specifically with quarterback. It's, you know, you can
you get granular in your tiers and stuff. You can,
but I think you pretty much know who's in and
who's out in terms of who you can comfortably start,
you know, and like you said, it's much better to
have a guy like Anthony Richardson as a risk with

(03:06):
his floor and upside in one QB league, But I
mean he could be the difference maker in a super flex, right,
So I think with tight ends as well, it's not
so much the position, just a lack of talent, you know,
near the top, or at least a lack of matching
talent at the top. Like there's so much talent with

(03:26):
Bowers and McBride and there's another group and then it
kind of gets way less granular, so you kind of
have to put guys into buckets and how you see them.
So a little less work on these tiers, but yeah,
you do have to know where to draw your line
for sure.

Speaker 1 (03:45):
Let's dive in. Like I said, we're gonna start with quarterbacks.
Reminder for everybody, all of our twenty twenty five consensus
rankings and tiers can be found at fantasypros dot com
slash rankings. You can navigate to our dynasty rankings from
there as well. We might move a little quicker. I
don't want to blow by any interesting conversations or names
that we think are worth highlighting. Remember, with a little
faster in this episode in the last couple just because

(04:06):
there are two different positions to get through today. So
if you feel like we're moving with more speed in
this one, that's why. But I don't want to just
blow past some of these names either. QB Tier one
is five names. It's Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, Jayden Daniels,
Joe Burrow and Jalen Hurts. And I actually think this
is a mistake that this is one tier. I think

(04:26):
this should be two because I don't think anybody is
making the case for Joe Burrow or Jalen Hurts over
any of the other three. I do think Burrow and
Hurts are very good and are deserving of being inside
the top five. But to me, you can maybe equivalent
with the order of the top three. I find it
very hard to be willing to be open to an

(04:48):
argument for anybody other than those three being inside the
top three. And for my money, when I'm putting together tiers,
if you can't really make an argument in my opinion,
for guy at the back of the tier with the
guy at the front of the tier, then they don't
long in the same tier. That's just how I personally
approach it fits when you are coming up with your
tiers at quarterback. Do you also see it as a
clear top three and there should be a separation there

(05:08):
or do you think it's deserving to be a five
man tier?

Speaker 2 (05:10):
No, I agree with you. Where am I have Burrow
and Jalen Hurts in my second tier and I think
their value is maybe just a little more. It's not
quite as multi dimensional as the value of Josh Allen,
Lamar Jackson, Jane Daniels, like Jalen Hurts derives so much
of his value from those short touchdown runs, you know,
I mean he if they had banned the tush push,

(05:32):
we would have had to really reassess the value of
Jalen Hurts. So there's that, and you know he's a
competent passer, but not a premier passer. Then there's Joe Burrow,
who is a premier passer but doesn't offer us a
lot of that rushing potential. You know, he's the only
guy in the top five who doesn't really run and

(05:54):
doesn't have a great line either, which makes me a
little worried about his near term future. So yeah, although
the Bengals defense is probably going to cast them into
a lot of shootouts this year. So I mean would
not surprise me to see Burrow flirt with five thousand
passing yards forty touchdowns this year if he can stay healthy.
That's another issue with him. He's had some minor injuries

(06:16):
in the past. So I do agree where I'm it's
a clear top three, and then I'm putting the other
two guys in the next tier.

Speaker 1 (06:24):
I think for me, Bogman, like in a super flex
startup there, I'm not even remotely considering anybody other than
a quarterback for those first three. If I'm thinking between
Joe Burrow or Jamar Chase, you know, Jalen Hurtz or
Justin Jefferson, I'm probably going quarterback in a super Flex,
but I'm at least thinking about it. I am weighing
that decision. I'm not weighing any decision with those first

(06:45):
three guys.

Speaker 3 (06:46):
Yeah, I think if if you want to talk about
where these tiers lay, then fine, that that's fine. But
I'm with you guys one hundred percent. I hard agree,
which is, you know, strange in this industry. But I
have those top three guys as the three, and I
think you can you can just knock the other three guys,
because my next tier would be Burrow, Mahomes, and Hurts,

(07:11):
and I think you can knock those three guys, like
Mahomes is not finished as the top six the last
two years. Right twenty twenty two, he was the number
one QB in points, so he's still right there. The
talent is still there, He's not so much older than
everybody here. Burrow doesn't run, Hurts isn't as good a
passer as the rest of these guys. I think it's
fair to say that about those three players and the

(07:35):
other top guys are the established top three that are
passing well and running well and finishing high. So I
think that is the separator in my tiers between the
top three and the next three. I would definitely not
put them together.

Speaker 1 (07:49):
Just before we get out of this tier, because again,
we all love these players. But I do think it's
interesting that you guys have a different number one, and
neither of you have Josh Allen. So, for the record,
if we were coming up, if I don't do rankings
in the same way you guys do, if I actually
might lay hear the summer, do some dynasty rankings where
I was talking to plain about that, so I might
start being able to contribute to these in a different
way going forward. But right now I don't do rankings.

(08:11):
If I was doing them, I think I would actually
have Josh Allen number one. Now either of you has
Alan Bobman, you have Lamar Jackson number one. It fits
you have Jade Daniels. So there's disagreement between the three
of us amongst who's number one, even if, of course
we all agree on who the top three are. Bobmin,
why don't you make the case for why you have
Lamar ahead of these other two, even if obviously you
see them as close and they're all awesome.

Speaker 3 (08:31):
We talked about this a little bit, I think a
couple months ago in the rankings episode. But for me,
I think Lamar is going to be able to age gracefully.
I think he's going to be able to ratchet back
the running and pass well. I think you could run
an offense that is an air raid with Lamar Jackson
right now if you wanted to. But why the hell
would you take away his best weapon, which is running.

(08:53):
So I think Lamar has maybe the best asset of
being able to transition as he gets older out of
all these three guys, Now, could he get hurt trying
to run too much? He could, All three of these
guys could, though they're all runners. So I just I
really like Lamar and I think he's going to age
gracefully fits.

Speaker 1 (09:11):
What about Jaden Daniels, who's your number one? Is it
just the age and the fact that he's three years
younger than Lamar and four years younger than Alan or
is there anything else to the profile of Daniels that
sets him apart from those other two for you?

Speaker 2 (09:24):
No, it's mostly the age. I mean, he has the
potential to offer for the same sort of dual run
pass value that Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen have long offered.
But Josh Allen recently turned twenty nine, Lamar Jackson is
twenty eight and a half. Jadan Daniels is twenty four
and a half. So that's basically it. I mean, we

(09:46):
have another we have an an Olympic cycle separating Jaden
Daniels from the other two guys in age.

Speaker 1 (09:53):
To me, that's somewhat counterbalanced by the fact that the
other guys have done it multiple years, and I I
like Daniels a lot. Again, obviously, the inside of my
top three, but we have only seen it once. I
don't act even though I think Buddy did a good
job last year. I don't love Cliff Kingsbury as a
long term offensive coordinator for him, and I do wonder

(10:15):
at his size, if at a younger age than maybe
other running quarterbacks, they kind of try to get him
to run less often, even though that is what helps
make him an elite quarterback is his ability to run.
He's just so thin that it worries me about him
getting hurt and the team dialing back on that a
bit where somebody like Josh Allen, Like I think Josh

(10:36):
Allen is gonna rumble in for you know, close school
to go rushing touchdowns for the next eight years. Still,
like that's just the way he's kind of built in
the way he plays, so that gives me an extra
degree of confidence as a runner. But that is nitpicking, right, Like,
we all love all three of these guys, so I
think we can probably go ahead and move on from
this tier because we all love them. Next tier, so

(10:59):
you guys have borrow Jalen Hurts a tier down the
other guys that are in kind of the consensus ECR tiers,
Patrick Mahomes, Justin Herbert bow Knicks quarterback six, quarterbacks seven,
quarterback eight. You guys have these guys in a different order.
The biggest discrepancy between the two of you is actually
on bo Nicks. Fifty are three spots below consensus on Knicks. Bogman,
you are a spot ahead of consensus on Knicks. So

(11:21):
I'll start with you on this. On Bogman, why do
you like bo Nicks better than the consensus?

Speaker 3 (11:25):
I mean, I think bo Knicks showed last season he
was way undervalued coming into the league. I think we
hold onto that a little bit too much sometimes specifically
in dynasty rankings. He came in, he was outstanding. I
think there's meat on the bone in terms of a
passer because he didn't have great weapons. I think obviously
the rushing game was horrific for the Broncos last season,

(11:46):
and that's why the whole running back look has changed
on this team. You go and draft RJ. Harvey and
you signed J. K. Dobbins to kind of completely change this.
And the offensive line is great, the defense is great.
I think there's just a lot of upside here with Bonick.
So you know, I wouldn't say that I'm crazy on
him one spot ahead of consensus, though I like him

(12:06):
and I like Drake May. I like both those guys.

Speaker 1 (12:08):
Moving forward fits for you? On bo Nicks, is it like,
what is keeping him lower? Because why do you hate him?

Speaker 3 (12:16):
Well, well, that's the quest.

Speaker 1 (12:17):
I mean, he's obviously younger than the other guys in
this tier, which mattered to you when we're talking about
his top three, but now he's kind of following a
little below. Now there are some younger guys who are
also ahead of him that you just have that we
haven't gotten to yet that are in a lower tier
and consensus. So that's probably part of it. But is
there anything about b Nix that I mean, do you
think this is just kind of like that you're not
moving off your priors, But like, we did have a

(12:37):
certain opinion of him prior to last season, and it's
only been one season of him kind of proving a
lot of us wrong. In terms of his fantasy ranking,
you have him QB eleven. It's not like it's crazy low.
He's still QB one for you. But what goes into
that decision to have him multiple spots below consensus? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (12:52):
I mean, maybe I shouldn't. I actually have him, I
think one spot higher in redraft rankings QB ten. So
I do like Bonnicks. I liked that he's working with
Sean Payton, who you know, just Bonnicks came out of
college as this guy who was known for sort of
like being a master of the short passing game, and
Sean Payton had been with Drew Brees for the entirety

(13:13):
of almost the entirety of Drew Brees' career, so just
seemed like a really good match here. And you know, Nicks,
I think he proved to us that there were some
maybe flaws with him as a prospect, but he started
a lot of games in college and he was ready
to hit the ground running man when he got into

(13:34):
the NFL. So I'm not too worried about him, and
maybe I should have him ahead of CJ. Stroud right now.
I have CJ. Stroud ranked higher. The guy was so
blown away by Stroud's rookie year and how good it was,
and I really believed that the drop off last year
was more attributable to how bad Stroud's offensive line was

(13:55):
than anything with Stroud himself. But unfortunately Stroud's offensive line
and looks like it's going to be awful again this year.
So maybe I have to start baking that into the
Dynasty rankings and should have next higher.

Speaker 1 (14:08):
When you're thinking about any quarterback, really, how much is
situation playing a role in your evaluation? Because we have
talked before a guy like CJ. Stroud made Houston a
good situation. Obviously you just mentioned the offensive line as
an issue, but like when he was drafted, there was
a lot of concerns about him from the Dynasty perspective of, like,
oh boy, the Texans are a dumpster fire, and he

(14:32):
made them look a lot better than they were. I
had kind of similar expectations for Drake May, who's another
name we'll get to want to get into Tier three.
But when you're looking at somebody like Justin Herbert doesn't
have the best pass catchers, but we think it's now
a really strong coach as opposed to when he was
first hired, doesn't have the best offensive coordinator for we
would think a fantasy skill set, but you know, really
talented player Patrick Mahomes has you know, doesn't have Tyreek

(14:53):
kill anymore. Travis Kelsey getting older. When you're looking at
guys like let's say Mahomes and Herbert, because they're in
this Tier two and they have both been Tier one
quarterbacks in the past, but are now consensus down to
Tier two. Is it situation that's dragging them down? Do
you think either of these guys Bogman can get back
into Tier one moving forward?

Speaker 3 (15:11):
Absolutely? I mean I think specifically for Mahomes, He's was
the number one quarterback in twenty twenty two, So if
they just decide to pass the ball a little bit
more and give him a little more responsibility, then yes,
I think Patrick Mahomes can easily get right back in there.
Justin Herbert, I think that is the system. I think
the you know, Greg Roman, azuro C Jim Harbaugh as

(15:33):
your head coach is going to be mainly a run
first outfit. That's just what he has done throughout his career.
I think that's why Fitz and I are going to
end up being a little bit lower on a guy
like Justin Herbert is because we know this seems to
be capped by the scheme a little bit. I mean
Justin Herbert, still you still want to bank on the
skill over the system, right because in the NFL, they

(15:56):
will build around what works. So if Herbert works, they
else are passing the crap out of the ball. That's
what's working. But I think for the most part, you
know the charger is going to strive thrown the ball.

Speaker 2 (16:10):
Can I weigh in on Herbert real fast form.

Speaker 1 (16:13):
Yes you can, but I want to frame it with
this question, fits, who do you think has a better
chance of jumping back into Tier one? Between Mahomes and Herbert?

Speaker 2 (16:19):
I think it's Mahomes, even though he's getting older.

Speaker 1 (16:22):
So what is it about Herbert that keeps you from
feeling that way?

Speaker 2 (16:25):
And by the way, it's mainly because of the way. Well, now,
for the first time in a couple of years, the
Chiefs look like they're pretty deep if we can count
on good health at wide receiver, and like Andy Reid
is openly talking about wanting to get the deep ball
back into the Chiefs offense, which is encouraging. I mean, man,
a couple of years ago, like anyone sitting on Patrick

(16:45):
Mahomes in Dynasty had to be like two years ago,
Mahomes was coming off a five thousand yard, forty one
touchdown season and just entering its prime, and you would
be just you know, licking your chops if you had
him on a dynasty roster and then the last two years, yeah,
right around four thousand yards under thirty touchdowns both years.

(17:06):
So hopefully he can sort of get back to something
close to where he was before.

Speaker 1 (17:12):
Herbert.

Speaker 2 (17:12):
Everyone loves the tools man. The guy's got a golden arm.
He runs, he plays hurt like intangibles. Tools, everything is there,
but they are going to be run heavy, as Boggs
was saying. And it looks like Jim Harbaugh is pretty
dug in with the Chargers. He's going to be there
for a while, so that marriage could last well into

(17:36):
justin Herbert's prime. He's twenty seven now, just getting into
his you know prime years, that age twenty seven to
age thirty one range.

Speaker 3 (17:45):
Pete Carrol Russell Wilson, Yeah, right there.

Speaker 2 (17:48):
Herbert might not be decoupled from Harbaugh until he is
out of that prime age range.

Speaker 1 (17:55):
I think I'm a little more optimistic about their willingness
to throw with Herbert than you guys are.

Speaker 2 (18:01):
It's Greg Roman. You've watched the guy coach your offense
for so long you think he's gonna turn into Don
Corey l Worm.

Speaker 1 (18:07):
I think if they get better weapons for her Like
I think they are smart football people who are going
to say, like, listen, we the golden ticket for us
for winning big is justin Herbert's arm, and if they
get better weapons for him, like I do think they
will recognize the value. Like like Jim Harbaugh is a

(18:28):
kooky guy, but he's a smart guy too, Like I
think he'll see what he has. And last year, as
the running backs got worse, you know JK. Dobbins second
half of the year, they did throw more. Now they
have Amarian Hampton, who we think is really good, so
maybe they won't be as try to do that. And
you know Greg Roman was doing that with early career.
Lamar we're running did probably make more sense, and you

(18:48):
know Colin Kaepernick and stuff like that. So I'm not
saying that they're definitely gonna be like a top five
pass evy team in the offense or anything insane like that.
But I think I'm a little more optimistic than you.

Speaker 3 (18:58):
Well that's why I was saying before worm, you know,
like let's make sure we're not throwing away the skill
because of the system, because in the NFL, if the
passing is working better than the running, it doesn't matter
what you usually call. You're going to call the plays
that work right. And like you said, when the run
game didn't work last year, they passed the ball way heavier.
But then what they do this offseason, they went they

(19:19):
drafted a running back in the first round. They signed
a guy with three hundred touches, you know, And Herbert
has been hurt when you let him run the ball.
When you let him run the ball, he has gotten
rib injuries and ankle injuries and all kinds of stuff.
So I think that is going to lower the further
his career goes as well. So you know, he could

(19:40):
run better with these running backs. That's in the realm
of possibility as well, Like he could just you know,
have a clearer path and it might be easier for
him to pick up yards running. But he has been
injured when they let him run the ball.

Speaker 1 (19:53):
And let me be clear, I think they are going
to be a run heavy team. I just I'm less
pessimistic that it's going to be so far in that
direction that it makes Herbert not able to be a
successful fantasy quarterback. So that's kind of where I fall
down that I do want to let everybody know about
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(20:13):
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Fantasy Football Draft Wizard app. I love talking Dynasty Football
with you guys, but it's funny. I'm like, oh, we're

(20:34):
gonna move a little quicker through this episode, and it's
twenty minutes and we're spending all this time on Justin
Herbert because I can't help myself. I like, I like
debating this stuff with you. Let's go to tier three,
which is a bigger one. It goes from QB nine
to QB nineteen, and this is from the expert consensus
rankings goes from Drake may Caleb Williams, c J. Stroud, Kyler,
Murray Baker, Mayfield, Jordan Love, Brock Purty, Trevor Lawrence, JJ McCarthy,

(20:56):
Jared Goff, Dak Prescott. So, first of all, the fact
that Tier three has eleven names in it does kind
of speak to the depth at the position. There are
a lot of options for you to get as your
second quarterback in a super flex league pulling out of
this tier and particularly well really the whole tier. There's
a couple names that I'm not that interested in, like
Jared Goff is somebody that I'm not really paying that
close attention to in Dynasty right now. Beyond that, a

(21:19):
lot of these names, I really see the case for
liking taking them and seeing additional upside based on where
they are right at the very top though, you guys
have all these players either with consensus or a head
of consensus. Drake May, KAYLEB Williams, C. J. Stroud, Drake
May is at the very top. You guys both have
him inside your top eight. I would agree with that
we are all very very high in Drake May when

(21:41):
you are looking at May and bog When I'll start
with you on this one, but I want to get
both your opinions. Do you see somebody who you expect
to be a Tier one Dynasty quarterback at some point
in their career or do you think it's more he
should be higher than he is now, but he's not
going to reach that level of sealing. No.

Speaker 3 (21:57):
I think he can be a QB one right now.
I think that could easily happen, Like if Stefan Diggs
is good to go from the jump and Kyle Williams
establishes himself. He has a nice pass catching back in
Traveon Henderson. Now defense is still getting fixed in New England. Yeah,
with his rushing upside, Drake May could be a QB
one this year. It's not out of the realm possibility.

(22:19):
Is it a little soon to ask him that maybe
it could be? But I think he's going to be outstanding,
and I don't like him nearly as much as FITZI does,
so I think that he can easily be QB one.

Speaker 1 (22:31):
Do you see fits a Tier one Dynasty quarterback? When
you look at Drake May, who, by the way, is
the second youngest player we're talking about today on the
quarterback side, behind only JJ McCarthy.

Speaker 2 (22:43):
I think he gets there. I'm maybe less confident than
Bogman is, though, Like I don't think it's fada complete
that he does in fact become a QBS.

Speaker 3 (22:52):
A QBING one, not TIERSO tier one.

Speaker 2 (22:53):
But yeah, Tier one.

Speaker 3 (22:54):
Tier one. I still think he could be this year.
I think has a lot to ask. I think you
need to get some weapons there, but he could. I
think he could definitely be in Tier one two.

Speaker 2 (23:04):
The drum that I've been beating all offseason is that
he has major rushing upside, like he was pacing for
based on his starts last year. If you take out
Week eighteen, where he played one series averaged like almost
forty rushing yards a game, it would have worked out
to six hundred and fifty rushing yards over a full season.
But I think there's more upside on that based on

(23:24):
what he did in college, and certainly more upside than
just the two touchdown runs he had last year, since
he had sixteen in twenty six college starts. So I
think he does have rushing upside, not far off from
what we get out of Jade Daniels, Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson,

(23:45):
and yeah, the passing work in progress, but he just
looked so poised and in command last year. And it's
one of those things like I don't try to pass
myself off as a scout, but he just had that
presence and that command that like you felt pretty confidence
about his ability to make throws last year, and he

(24:06):
was doing it with like de Mario Douglas as his
best wide receiver. Now he's got Diggs, he's got Kyle Williams,
and I'm sure there's more help on the way in
the years to come. So yeah, I'm feeling pretty good
about him.

Speaker 1 (24:18):
Better coaching staff, I also think, like and I think
there's been some I don't know if it's just been
like people speculating or of actual reporting to this effect,
but there's been talk that he would have run more
last year, but they knew it was a lost season
where they weren't trying to win games, so don't waste
your runs, don't risk getting hurt, Like if they are
thinking it can help them win, I wouldn't be surprised

(24:40):
to see him, Like there's more upside on the rushing
I think than even what we saw last year, which
was really encouraging.

Speaker 2 (24:45):
From that stand, now I piggyback on that, Like, yeah,
his I think in scrambling yards he was second only two.
I want to say Jayden Daniels last year almost all
scrambling and not designed runs, Like he had almost nothing
on design run. They didn't want to draw up runs
for him last year. That's going to become part of
the Patriots playbook in the future, and that's going to

(25:06):
add to the rushing upside.

Speaker 3 (25:07):
It's why we like him coming out of North Carolina.
You watch him play and if they ain't there, I'm
talking and I'm going I'm picking up as many as
I can, really aggressive runner.

Speaker 1 (25:17):
So we all love may. We all would have him
inside our top eight very easily if it has got
him with QB six. Where are we out on Caleb Williams,
You guys are in line with consensus, so there's not
a discrepancy here, But I do think it's worth just
hitting on him briefly. Fits Caleb obviously, this huge superstar
prospect coming into the NFL really disappointing first year. He
has Ben Johnson. It feels like it's a better situation

(25:39):
with the offensive line clearly. Do you think he's more
likely to move up from QB ten or down from
QB ten in consensus rankings this time next year because
there's so many names and the ones ahead of him
are pretty good, but it's also clear there's more upside here.

Speaker 2 (25:54):
I think OP is the more likely direction for his ranking.
He was my QB one coming out of college. I
did like him more than jayde Daniels. I still think
there's a lot of potential. He's great at making plays
off script. The question is whether he can be a
great quarterback on script, and that's what Ben Johnson wants
him to be. And I just reading an article somewhere

(26:15):
about how Ben Johnson was yelling at him in OTAs
for not working through progressions quickly enough, and like he
is going to try to work that into him. But
I do think he has the tools to do that.
He has some running ability, which is going to help
his fantasy value. I mean, I guess there is that
little bit of doubt about whether he can be the

(26:35):
you know, like sort of the robo quarterback you sometimes
have to be as an NFL player and not just
the you know, improvisational king that he was at USC.
But then they're the throws man, like I don't know
if you guys remember that otherwise, just hideous, unsightly Thursday
night game between the Bears and the Seahawks last year

(26:56):
that I think wound up like ten to three or six.
So bad, so bad. But one of the throws that
Caleb made in that game where he was like scrambling around,
throws across his body and just throws this unbelievable dart
to Romo Dunesay in the end zone that wound up
getting called back for holding penalty, but like it was
one of those throws where I mean it brought me

(27:18):
off my couch. It was just so dazzling. And he's
got that kind of ability. Just a matter putting it
all together. And now it seems like he's got the
infrastructure with the upgraded weaponry and offensive line, a terrific
offensive play caller and choreographer. It's just a matter whether
he can be that guy and play more disciplined bagman.

Speaker 3 (27:43):
Yeah, I mean I have him in a tier. I
have a tier from seven to eleven. It's Nick's May,
Herbert Williams, and Strout. That's my next tier after Burrow
hurts Mahomes, So seven to eleven, I think that's the
next wave of guys that are gonna be pushing into
this group and Kayleb Williams firmly in there. We saw
a terrible year with a awful decision to keep Maddy Eberflus,

(28:05):
who wasn't helping Caleb Williams at all. They redid this
offensive system halfway through the year and he didn't look
much better. Was complete mess last year. Let's get him
a real play caller in here. These weapons are amazing.
I mean, he has all the upside in the world.
I think this whole group does. CJ. Stroud included, yes,
down on CJ. Stroud overall from last season, but he

(28:28):
still hasn't we saw him display it. So Nicks, may
Herbert Williams, Stroud, I think they're all that next group
to push in to the top of QB one in
the top tiers.

Speaker 1 (28:38):
I want to spend a little extra time on this
tier because I think it's a really critical tier in
super flex drafts. This is like the tier that, if
you get it right, will really set you up nicely
for your dynasty for years to come. So I want
to ask, who are the guys in this tier that
you think are undervalued. I think we're all going to
be in agreement that somebody like Jared Goff is maybe

(29:00):
little overvalue, you know, losing Van Johnson, he's older, he
doesn't run, you know, Baker Mayfield, we're expecting some touchdown regression.
Also on the wrong side of thirty, Dak Prescott, another
older guy that you guys are below consensus on. But
who do you most feel confident in that is a
value right now? Is it somebody like Jordan Love Fits
Is it somebody like Brock Purdy who's maybe underlook just
because of the draft pedigree but has been good and

(29:21):
is in a great system. Is it the upside with
JJ McCarthy or Trevor Lawrence. I'll start with you. Who's
the guy that stands out to you that this is
the value I want to be targeting and startup drafts.
We're in trades right now in this range.

Speaker 2 (29:32):
I think you just touched on the four guys Worm,
Jordan Love, Brock Party, Trevor Lawrence, JJ McCarthy, Trevor Lawrence.
Canny turned the corner now that he's working with Liam
Cohen and has this dynamic wide receiver with Brian Thomas
Junior and Travis Hunter. JJ McCarthy, who we have not
seen take an NFL snap yet, but also gets the
benefit of playing for a brilliant offensive mind in Kevin

(29:55):
O'Connell and playing with great weaponry Justin Jefferson Addison, TJ. Hockinson,
and he runs so, but Love and Purty are kind
of the interesting ones. I mean, Love was injuries were
such a story for him in twenty twenty four. He
sprains the mcl in Week one, misses two games, then

(30:18):
comes back, and it wasn't long after that that he
had a groin injury that I think was hampering him
for much of the season. Packers were the third run
heaviest team in the league last year, so I this
was the guy who had taken Green Bay on that
crazy postseason run a year earlier and looked like he
was one of the best quarterbacks in the league. So

(30:40):
I don't think we have a totally good handle on
exactly what his ceiling is for fantasy, Like, I think
Jordan Love is one of the hardest guys to assess
for dynasty of any quarterback. And then I Perty is
just maybe underrated. Maybe it's the lack of draft pedigree
as the former mister Irrelevant, But I mean now that
they have hate him and Hares, yeah exactly, like, but

(31:03):
he's actually really good. Like He's a good quarterback, plays
in a really good offense and adds a little bit
of rushing value too. So I think Perty tends to
be underrated, like I mean, I would it is a
travesty that Purdy is behind Baker Mayfield on this list.
I mean, come on to Baker Mayfield, like had never

(31:24):
thrown thirty touchdown passes in a season, goes over forty
last year with a ridiculously high touchdown rate and like
anyone expecting a repeat, and now Tristan Wurf's is going
to open the season on poplike there is a crash
coming for Baker Mayfield. I fear it's funny.

Speaker 1 (31:41):
Because I look at these rankings that I'm like, I
wouldn't have Purty behind Kyler Murray, but I can at
least understand the justification for that ranking. And if you
want to make an upside case for Kyler, I'm willing
to hear it. I don't understand the case we made
for Baker Mayfield. It's a great call out, Like I
don't understand why he's ranked thirteenth with some of the
names that are b behind him.

Speaker 2 (32:00):
Love the guy, I mean, he's a baller, but this
is just ridiculous coming up yeah and even rushing he
had like what one hundred and you.

Speaker 3 (32:10):
Added Buka and you get a healthy Chris Godwin back, Like,
I think people just see the health of this offense
being better this year and going, well, why can't he
be better right now?

Speaker 2 (32:19):
Great season in the past, catching weaponry is even better.
I get it, But man, like there is regression coming
from mister Mayfield.

Speaker 1 (32:27):
It's funny. I have a super Flex league that I'm
in where I have three quarterbacks. It's c. J. Stroud,
It's Jordan Love, and it's JJ McCarthy and they're all
in this tier. And like, on the one hand, I'm like,
that's a great group of three. I'm really excited to
have that in super Flex. On the other hand, I'm like,
you can kind of see the case against them, Like
if Stroud really never runs, the offensive line stays bad.
Jordan Love, you just laid out the case fits that

(32:47):
we don't really know what to do with him. And
McCarthy is essentially a rookie here, even though he's in
a great situation. So again, it's such an interesting tier
to have multiple guys in and see the way it
pans out to wrap up this tier. Bogan, I'll ask
you the same question I asked Fitzho's the guy that
stands out to you that's most undervalued.

Speaker 3 (33:03):
I think it's JJ McCarthy, and I think you could
pick any name out of this group. And I just
got done on the Deep Sleeper Show with myself and
welshon John Diegel talking about JJ McCarthy. But this is
the stat that I keep coming back to in terms
of what the QB situation can be like going from
anywhere else to Minnesota, right, And this is because Sam

(33:24):
Donald his finishes before going to Minnesota last year or
twenty seven, twenty seven, twenty nine, twenty eight, thirty six,
fifty five, he didn't do anything with the Niners a
year before going to Minnesota, and then it was QB nine.
And this is because they're a pass heavy system. They
have great targets, they have a strong offensive line. McCarthy
is plugged into all of that, and he has way

(33:47):
more rushing upside than Sam Donald. So I think, is
there a possibility that JJ McCarthy just looks miserable and
is not the QB of the future for the Vikings. Yes,
of course he's a risk. We haven't seen him at all.
But you take a guy that was a journeyman that
was kind of lost, you plug him in to Minnesota
and he works great. It's hard to see that that

(34:09):
won't work for a first round talent in JJ McCarthy.
So I think he's being a little bit underrated because
we haven't seen him. He's coming off a major injury.
Sam Darnald really took a nose dive at the end
of last season as well, So I think he's being
ignored a little bit too much. But I really like him.

Speaker 1 (34:25):
Tier four goes from quarterback twenty to twenty nine. This
will be the last tier we talked about for this
position today. Michael Pennis Junior, cam Ward, Justin Fields, Bryce
Young two a tongue of I Lois, Sam Donald, Gino Smith,
Jackson Dart, Anthony Richardson, Matthew Stafford. Obviously, there's not a
ton of downside when you get this late in the rankings.
It's more about finding guys with upside. I do think

(34:47):
you can look at it in terms of long term
upside and short term Like for example, we're lower on Gino,
you guys are both lower than consensus on him. I
do think there's short term upside if like, if you're
a contender, I think it's worth considering him as a
trade if you really have a need at QB two
and you want to try and win this year or
somebody like that's interesting. But what we're really looking at
with these rankings and tiers is guys that we think

(35:07):
can elevate a tier or two tiers between now and
this time next year. And those are just naturally going
to be the younger guys where we see the more upside.
So those are the guys at the top of this tier.
It's Michael Penix Junior, it's cam Ward, it's Justin Field,
it's Bryce Young. These are the guys that one or
both of you are higher than consensus on of those
first four again, Michael Penix Junior, cam Ward, Justin Fields,

(35:27):
Bryce Young, Bogman. Who is your favorite to take a
leap this season?

Speaker 3 (35:32):
I mean, I think it's tough for me to decide
between Fields and Ward. I think I'd have to say
Fields because we've already seen him a little bit. We
know the rushing upside is insane, and if he starts
every game, he could easily be a top ten QB
with that rushing up side, so we know what's there.
Cam Ward I'm interested in because I really like what

(35:52):
Callahan did with Joe Burrow, in the Cincinnati offense, and
I think he wants to bring a similar field to Tennessee.
Cam Ward has been so good at every stop, and
this is a guy that's worked with multiple offensive coordinators
in college, so coming into a new system is nothing
new for him. He's been doing this his entire collegiate career.
So I'm really excited to see what cam Ward has.

(36:15):
So those are the two out of this group, both
young with a ton of upside that stand out to
me above the rest.

Speaker 1 (36:20):
I would ask you the same question, fits, but I
already know your aunt is going to because I've done
enough shows at the So instead of asking you, let
me just tell you to talk about Michael Pennox.

Speaker 2 (36:28):
You here, It's actually not I was gonna say cam
Ward Worm.

Speaker 1 (36:32):
Wow, I am stunned by that. You love me. That's crazy.

Speaker 3 (36:35):
Worm. I just have to point this out that Fitz
and I on this show spent the entire offseason debating
cam Ward and Shador Sanders, and we have them ranked
in the exact same spots now after post draft, we
have them in the same spot after we spent the
whole off season.

Speaker 1 (36:53):
Arguing well easier to move Schader down after what happened,
of course. Yeah, but yeah it is. It is funny,
So please tell me why it's word and not Pennicks,
because I'm really stunned by this.

Speaker 2 (37:03):
And I will talk briefly about Pennix, but Ward, like
my major reservation with him as a prospect was about
sometimes the occasional recklessness with the way he just holding
the ball too long to try to make hero plays,
sometimes getting loose with this handle on the football, things

(37:23):
that aren't necessarily detriments to his fantasy value. But now
I'm just getting more optimistic, like reading about how they
literally have to kick him out of the team facility
now because he is in there like early in the
morning and late at night, already assuming a leadership role.
Like everything you read about this guy is like, oh yeah,

(37:45):
Like this guy is driven to succeed in the NFL.
So I'm starting to get more bullish on cam Ward.
I love Pennix too. Ward offers rushing upside Penix really
does not. Even though Pennis has a pretty good forty teen.
You don't want Hennix to rotten. This guy's already had
some major injuries in college.

Speaker 3 (38:03):
You want him to be Joe Burrow.

Speaker 2 (38:04):
Yeah, but I do think the upside for him, and
I don't even know about Burrow Bogs, but I would
say Jared Goff is probably the upside. And that sounds
like damning him with fate praise. But like Jared Goff
has had five four thousand yard passing seasons, Jared Goff
has had five seasons with twenty eight or more touchdown passes.
That's what I think you can get from Michael Pennis,

(38:27):
a guy who just reliably strings together really good passing
numbers a year after year without a lot of rushing upside.

Speaker 1 (38:34):
I want to get your guys' opinion before you wrap
up quarterbacks on Bryce Young, who's the last of those
four that you guys didn't mention one of the more
fun second half stories last season. Went from looking like
an all time bust to maybe like a capable NFL
starter and a guy who actually like ran enough to
be helpful in fantasy in a lot of weeks. In
the second half last season, he adds a first round

(38:55):
wide receiver that I really liked, paired up with Dave Canalis,
who's his quarterback whisperer. So do we think Bryce Young
is somebody that I don't know if I want to
say undervalued, because there's such just so many talented quarterbacks
ranked ahead of him that it's not like I think
you should be ranked, you know, several spots higher than
QB twenty three. But is he somebody that you are,
you know, a lot more interested in and see continued

(39:16):
upside for or do you think the leap we saw
in the middle of last season is him getting closer
to his ceiling and there's not much more to go
just given the height and some of the other limitations
that we already knew about Bogman.

Speaker 3 (39:28):
I think this is it for him and Anthony Richardson.
I'll put them in the same bucket, right like I
think Bryce Young and Anthony Rion and the opinion on
them could not be more opposite right now, right because
Richardson still recovering, seems like Daniel Jones is kind of
taking the reins. But I keep saying this point, like,
if you're psyching, you know, if you're Ballard, if you're

(39:48):
in charge of this pick, don't you want to dress
it up like Anthony Richardson came from behind and won
this job, and you know, you boost his confidence going
into the season. So I think maybe a little bit
of that as their deivebase. But in terms of Bryce Young,
I think we're all looking at the positive finish from
last season and saying, well, look, if we get more
of that, then he's just the guy. Maybe we should

(40:10):
be a little bit higher on him, But if it
goes the other way, if he reverts even a little
bit back. Now we have a quarterback issue, and we
have some good quarterbacks coming out next year, and the
Panthers defense, while much improved, is not going to keep
them out of picking in the top ten most likely
next season. So I think Bryce Young is teetering. I

(40:31):
think he is one of those guys that we expect
to take the improvement because we saw it last year,
but he could easily revert and slide back and then
be in a situation where maybe someone is pushing him
next year. So I think him and Richardson kind of
I put in the same bucket of this is it.
I think we're more positive. We think Bryce Young is
going to make it. We think Richardson isn't, but that

(40:52):
could easily flip during the season.

Speaker 1 (40:54):
Fit's what do you think about Bryce Young? Before we
move off quarterback?

Speaker 2 (40:57):
Yeah, Bryce Young is like the swimming pool, Well, I
don't want to dive in because it might be frigid.
I sort of want to wait in down the stairs. Yeah,
but like I'm generally optimistic, Like the upturn we saw
late last year was pretty encouraging and like it was
going to take some time, but it seems like Dave
Knalis is once again working his magic with a quarterback.

(41:19):
Now they gave him Teto McMillan, which is fantastic. So
cautiously optimistic, I do know wherem that. Like, I was
kicking myself for a long time for taking Bryce Young
over CJ. Stroud in a Dynasty rookie draft a couple
of years ago, and suddenly I don't feel completely terrible
about that decision anymore.

Speaker 1 (41:40):
There's still a pretty sizable gap between the two.

Speaker 2 (41:42):
Oh yeah, I mean it was still probably the wrong decision,
but it feels less ridiculous than it.

Speaker 1 (41:48):
It's now like, oh, that was a bad decision, and
not like am I bad at this job because I
made a decision.

Speaker 2 (41:53):
Like yes, exactly exactly.

Speaker 1 (41:56):
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Speaker 3 (42:57):
Did I just hear some thunder there too.

Speaker 1 (42:59):
It looks like it's coming and rain's starting to fall.
So hopefully I don't lose power during this storm or
anything like that. But you could tell, like you could
even see in the lighting, like at least from my perspective,
because I usually have this great Denver sun and now
it's like I'm just getting lit by the computer screen
and it got really dark out really fast. All right,
So we'll try to survive through the tight end section
of the show without me losing power. Here. We're gonna

(43:20):
do four tiers here as well. We'll probably move a
little faster because unlike super flex format, there's you know,
there's not like a two tight end format you might
need to worry about. Maybe tight end premium, of course,
can make these guys more valuable, but by and large,
you're just really gonna have one of these guys as
kind of your key fantasy Dynasty tight end on any
given roster. Tier one. Rock Bowers, Trey McBride, Samuel Porda

(43:41):
not gonna surprise anybody the names that are there, given
the talent, the production, and of course the age. Do
you guys think there's like a case to be made
for Bauers being in his own tier, or do you
think it's right to have McBride and Laporta here fits.

Speaker 2 (43:56):
I do think there's a really good case for Bower
here now.

Speaker 3 (44:02):
You know.

Speaker 2 (44:02):
I know the Raiders were among the leaders in dropbacks
last year and some people think that kind of skewed
Bowers numbers. But even if the Raiders throw a little
bit less this year, I think the quality of targets
is going to be better with Gino Smith there and
with more capable offensive design from Chip Kelly. And I

(44:23):
just I think he was just clearing his throat last
year and we might get the aria from from Brock
Bauers in the next year or two. Like there's just
he is probably the best tight end prospect ever and
you know, I thought it was a suitable debut for
him last year, but I do not think the elevator

(44:44):
is hit the top floor yet.

Speaker 1 (44:46):
And for as great as he is, he's also the
second youngest guy inside of our top three tiers. The
only younger player is Colston Lovelin. That's amongst the guys
in the top three tiers. So he's really really good
and also still well, he's young and has his path forward.

Speaker 2 (45:02):
It was a monster is an eighteen year old freshman
at Georgia. A monster in the NFL is a twenty
one year old rookie. Like he just keeps smashing through
the age barrier.

Speaker 3 (45:13):
His quarterbacks last year were Brock Powers were Gardner Minshew
and Aidan O'Connell. I mean, you know, I don't think
Geno Smith is a great quarterback, but he's way better
than both of those guys.

Speaker 1 (45:25):
And like in Redraft, I actually am considering McBride like
at the very like close to even with him, and
I might even have more interest in McBride depending on
the scoring format. Like I really like McBride a lot.
There's a three year age gap between the two of them.
McBride's not old, but you know that if Bowers is
already probably the best tight end in football and is

(45:48):
also one of the youngest guys here, and I you know,
has a quarterback upgrade, like yo Boggs just alluded to,
I don't think you're gonna see anybody that ranks anybody
other than Bowers's dynasty tight end one. And if that's
the case, like maybe he should be in his own tier.
I do really like McBride and Laporta. Are these the
right two names Bogman to be in the tier if
there are going to be three in this tier?

Speaker 3 (46:08):
Yeah, I mean I think if you separated, laport wouldn't
go in there. For me, I would have it Bowers,
then McBride in his own tier, then whatever however else
you want to establish it. But it's those two and
then everybody else. If you want to separate those two,
I'm completely fine with it. But you know, you would
say that McBride is the number one target in Arizona
even with Marvin Harrison Junior there. That's kind of what

(46:31):
we showed last season. You know, can that change? Of course,
Marvin Harrison Junior immensely talented, but it could also go
the other way. Maybe adding this weight is not going
to help Marvin Harrison, so we could see a little
bit more. We also have touchdown equity to consider with
Trey McBride as well. That's going to get better. So,
you know, these are both studs. I think Bowers needs

(46:51):
to go about a round higher than McBride, but they're
both elite tight ends.

Speaker 1 (46:57):
Laporta fits. Do you think he belongs? You know not?
Maybe in the same conversation, as Bowers, But like, if
you have to pick a third game of the tier,
is it Laporta for you or would it be somebody else?

Speaker 2 (47:07):
Yeah, I debated whether he belongs in the top tier.
I think he does. His usage got Yo Yoda a
little bit last year. No doubt, the emergence of Jamison
Williams has taken some targets office plate. But I do
think he belongs. He's been great as a rookie and
then a little bit of regression last year, but he
was still pretty good. And Boggs is the touchdown thing
going to get better?

Speaker 3 (47:26):
For Yeah, I keep yes it is.

Speaker 2 (47:29):
I keep hearing that, But the dude has scored six
touchdowns in forty nine NFL games. And then, by the way,
Boggs in his final year in college, he had a
one touchdown. Ninety catches, one touchdown.

Speaker 3 (47:40):
Like fits, would you like to bet let's bet on
this because Dawson Knox had the same thing. Dawson Knox
didn't catch a touchdown in college. He didn't catch one,
and he had like nine his first season or whatever
it was, and maybe it was six. It was a
bunch his first season touchdowns? Are They're weird right there?
They're finicky. You cannot count on them at all. So

(48:02):
I think it's eye rolling. I think I think the
TD thing is I roll. Now listen, if it happens
again this year, I'll be on your side. Okay, I
will completely flip flop and move forward with a whole
another season of limited touchdown production. I just cannot see
it continuing. He's too good.

Speaker 2 (48:19):
How About we'll set the over under it's seven, and
we'll we'll call it a pushit it ends on seven.

Speaker 3 (48:25):
Fine, easy, I'll take all right, all right.

Speaker 2 (48:28):
We'll figure out the stakes.

Speaker 1 (48:29):
Last I was going to set you up fits with. Now,
I know you're going to push back on that point
about trade McBride and the touchdowns, But I was wrong
last time. I said, I know exactly what you're gonna say,
and so I'm a little gun shy about it.

Speaker 2 (48:41):
I just barged through that gate like a before you
could say anything.

Speaker 1 (48:46):
Last question on the on this tier tight end Premium
super Flex startup draft brock Bauers first round pick Trey
McBride's second round pick. Does that sound right to you
guys in that scenario.

Speaker 3 (48:59):
Yes, rock bars definitely first McBride bumping up against him bumping.

Speaker 1 (49:03):
Up against first where in the first for powers? At
what pick are you saying, even though it's super flex,
it's a full PPR, it's tight end premium, like Bowers
is just too good to pass up. For me, it's
after those first three quarterbacks, Jamar Chase and then maybe
justin Jefferson. He's at least in my head as a
possibility at pick five, probably more like pick six or

(49:25):
seven for me, honestly, but I don't want to be
taking these other earlite receivers or running backs or non
tier one quarterbacks. I think he is that separated from
the pack at tight end, and again so young, Like
if you could draft Travis Kelsey knowing he's going to
be Travis Kelcey for the next decade in a tiny premium,
you're taking him in the top five overall, right, Like

(49:45):
that's where I'm taking Bowers. I think.

Speaker 2 (49:48):
Yeah, the conversation starts at number five. But just people
do need to remember, tight end premium does not mean
tight ends are one hundred and fifty percent more valuable
than there. It's more like one hundred and twenty perc
more valuable. It's about a twenty percent value boost to
the tight ends.

Speaker 3 (50:04):
Yeah, if you want whatever your QB bucket is of
the top, and if you want to put him immediately
after that, that's fine to mean. So to me, that's
seven pick seven. I wouldn't take him ahead of Mahomes,
wouldn't take him ahead of Hurtz, but I and the
other four qbs. I'd take the.

Speaker 2 (50:18):
Top three qbs Chase, and I'm probably still taking justin Jefferson.

Speaker 3 (50:24):
I think me too. I think Chase and Jefferson, So
in that scenario, he would be picking on Jefferson.

Speaker 1 (50:28):
Yeah, I think. I think it's like whatever the number
of quarterbacks is that you're comfortable with because superflex, like
that's your own approach, but the non quarterbacks in that format,
Chase definitely over Bowers. Jefferson to me is a toss up.
I'd probably lean Jefferson, but I'm considering it. I don't
think anybody else I'm even considering. I think he's the third.

Speaker 3 (50:45):
You want to take him over Chase With Jefferson, I
understand it. I don't think I would do it. I
wouldn't pull the trigger, but I.

Speaker 1 (50:51):
Get I couldn't do it on Chase. I would respect
the heck out of it if I saw somebody do it,
but I chase is very good. Let's let's go to
tier two of bucks at tight ends a little bit tier.
This to me is similar to what Tier three was
with the quarterbacks, where this is like where you're really
gonna kind of like make or break your team if
you're tight end for as much as it can make
or break a team. This is where it's really interesting

(51:11):
to me and trying to get it right. There's some
age here, those older veterans, there's also some rookies. It's
an interesting group. Goes from tight end four to tight
End ten. George Kittle, TJ. Hockinson, Tyler Warren, Colston Loveland,
Mark Andrews, Tuckercraft, David and Joku. So, I don't really
know where I want to start with this, and I'll
kind of let you you lead it fits you can
go first here. Do you want to kind of highlight

(51:33):
the rookies? Do you want to highlight maybe like the
breakout potential of Anjoku or a Craft. Do you want
to look at these veterans or over thirty like Andrews,
Hockins and Kittle. What's the most interesting to you in
this tier.

Speaker 2 (51:43):
I'm just going to say that my Tier two personally
is just Colston Loveland, Tyler Warren, and George Kittle, Okay,
and then there is a huge tier three for me.
So I think we do have to put the rookies
there as you know, rookies with mid first round draft capital,
you know. And I was pretty steadfastly Loveland ahead of

(52:05):
Warren and felt vindicated when he went ahead of Warren
in the draft. But now, like Warren, the possibilities with
him are kind of growing on me. Even though no
one likes the quarterback situation in Indianapolis, but just because
of the youth and the you know, those guys have
long careers ahead of them and are both really good prospects,

(52:25):
so I think they do deserve sort of to be
there with themselves. And Kittle is just such a monster.
I mean, he has averaged like he's done it year
in year out for seven Yeah. Yeah, I mean, if
I was looking at half point PPR earlier today, over
the last seven years, he's averaged twelve point two Fantasy

(52:46):
points per game in half point PPR, That's exactly what
Brock Powers averaged last year. And Kittle has done that
for seven years.

Speaker 1 (52:53):
Kittle is very much like if you're a contender, great
and if you're not, look to trade him, Like he's
kind of in that Derrek Henry conversation. Just given the
age like this is this is kind of any easy
calculus of deciding what to do with him. I really
like both Warren and love Loveland. I don't I didn't
have a real separation between either of them before the draft.
I think just given the landing spot and more certainty

(53:14):
of quarterback and play caller, like I think you have
to have Loveland ahead of Warren now. But they're obviously
both really good. Obviously the age too, they're both really good. Bagman,
do you see it as a tier within a tier
the way the way it fits it has it or
do you have more of these guys in your tier too?

Speaker 3 (53:30):
I have three to seven in my tier here because
I put Laporta, you know, below Bowers and McBride. So
I have Laporta, Loveland, Warren, Kittle, and Hawkinson. So it's
kind of you know your upside plays in Loveland and Warren.
You know what you're getting from Laporta and Hawkinson. And
then as you mentioned, Worm, Kittle is kind of your
if you're a contender, you want him. If you're not,
you're trading him away for value. So pretty easy tier.

Speaker 1 (53:52):
To me here. You know, Hockinson's an interesting one. He
just turned twenty eight a week ago, and tight Ends
off do kind of age a little better, just in
terms of like they the great ones get good later.

Speaker 3 (54:06):
They have to make it. That's the thing. Yeah, tight Ends.
They you either grow old and get and you're really good,
or you're out of the league real fast and replaced,
or you're stuck in a role of blocking and that's it.

Speaker 1 (54:19):
I wonder, I wonder if maybe we're looking past Hockinson
as a dynasty option, especially if you consider that he's
now another year removed from that late season knee injury
he had at the end of it was twenty twenty three, right,
I think, so like now you kind of get like
this this you know, full off season. There's a chance,
I know, he's got what is essentially a rookie quarterback,

(54:39):
but we really like the system, we like the potential
of the quarterback. There's a chance he's the number two
option in this passing game. Like I know, you really
like Jordan Addison fits, but like Hockinson's at least in
the conversation for a number two option in this passing
game behind Justin Jefferson. I wonder if, like even if
he's at the bottom of the tier, I wonder if
he does maybe belong at the back end of tier
two and we're kind of overlooking him just because he

(55:00):
was coming back off injury last year. Is there any
is there any legit legitimacy to that argument? Fits or
because you have him well below Concetta, you've got him
tied A nine.

Speaker 2 (55:09):
Yeah, twenty eight, as you pointed out, wherem just turned
twenty eight. We know he's going to have the fierce
target competition with Justin Jefferson and Jordan Addison. We think
that JJ McCarthy is going to be a good NFL quarterback,
but don't know for sure. And if McCarthy does have
some early career struggles, that's going to hurt Hockinson. And

(55:29):
that injury, man, that was ACL and was that also
mcl I can't. I think it was multiple legaments.

Speaker 1 (55:37):
Yeah, it was a bad injury, though.

Speaker 2 (55:38):
It was really bad.

Speaker 3 (55:39):
It was a bunch of them.

Speaker 2 (55:40):
Yeah, So I'm just worried, like, is he athletically still
the same guy after that, Bob Win.

Speaker 1 (55:47):
What do you think we just quickly on Hockinson because
I know you you kind of agree with me at
least in terms of your tier. You have him at
the bottom of tier two. But what's your kind of
approach with him right now in drafts?

Speaker 3 (55:56):
Yeah, I think he's fine. I think he is definitely
third though, said so, I think that caps his upside.
It is definitely Jefferson, it's Addison And if you want
to say he's fourth behind the run game, I think
that it's safe to say that as well. But he's
still going to score a bunch of touchdowns. Like I
think he is a nice target for the end zone,
and he's going to have a decent floor of targets

(56:17):
as well. And I think he's going to improve the
further he gets away from.

Speaker 1 (56:21):
This knee injury.

Speaker 3 (56:22):
So good enough last year coming off of it to
show me that I feel like he's going to improve.

Speaker 1 (56:26):
Tucker craft at Titan eight. You guys both agree on
right about where he is an ECR just one spot
higher Mark Andrews, I think is interesting. I actually think
there's a chance that we are looking past him in
the short term, right Now, and again it's almost aware
to Kittle. They're only two years apart, but almost similar
to Kittle, where you know, if you're in win Now.
I actually think he might be an interesting bilo for

(56:48):
a contender, But I'm just so certain that Isaiah likely
is going to be the guy going forward that I
think that's going to start this year and really like
after this year, I would be really shocked if Andrews
is Heighten won in Baltimore anymore. Like it would really
take Lamar saying like this is my guy and like
pounding the table to keep him. I think for that
change not to happen, but I think we might be

(57:10):
overlooking a little bit for like a win Now this
year type of team. And then in Djokho's a guy
who's been super athletic, you know, his whole career, and
it just you know, it's worked when he had Joe Flakka,
who loves storing the tight ends, but obviously quarterback situations there.
So I think it's like probably like the right group
of names to be in this range, not saying tier two,
but just in terms of this like low end tight

(57:31):
end one, you know type of a guy fits. There
are other guys in Tier three that you have ahead
of them. But before we get to those names, when
thinking about Mark Andrews, Tucker Craft, David and Joku, you know,
does the order feel kind of right to you? How
are you approaching those guys in this range?

Speaker 3 (57:46):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (57:46):
I mean Craft is interesting because he's still young, you know,
Like I know there's some people who strangely wonder if
you're guy Luke Musgrave bogs Is, like if he's still
might at some point past Tucker Craft. I feel like
that's been decided already, and.

Speaker 3 (58:00):
That Craft is I think so too, And I'm a
Musgrave guy I was coming in. I think Craft is
just better.

Speaker 2 (58:05):
Yeah, I mean he's just he has a little bit
of George Kittle in him after the catch, and plus
he's got that ambiguous wide receiver situation in Green Bay
that sort of helps with this target outlook. I think
the interesting conversation in this tier is with Kincaid and Pits,
like which guy would you to be more inclined to

(58:26):
be patient with of those two? Like who would you
rather have right now? Kincaid or Pits?

Speaker 3 (58:32):
I have Pits.

Speaker 1 (58:34):
I mean you can't say Pits, but that's kind of
where I.

Speaker 2 (58:37):
Lean Kinkaid's been pretty colossally disappointing too.

Speaker 3 (58:41):
They're both bad, they're kind of the same. Pits came
in with more hype, but I think Kinkaid was initially
a bigger disappointment because Pitts had the huge first.

Speaker 1 (58:51):
Let me let me ride this tier because we're because
in consensus rankings at least this is now the next tier,
which is Dalton Kincaid, Evan Ingram, Travis Kelcey, Kyle Pitts,
Honow Smith, Dallas Goddard, Isaiah Likely, Jake Ferguson that runs
from tight end eleven to tight end eighteen. So, like
I've kind of alluded to, both of you guys have
players in this tier ahead of at least one player
in the tier above. In terms of the consensus rankings,

(59:13):
you both have Pits higher than consensus. Even if we're
kind of dancing around him as the topic.

Speaker 2 (59:19):
He's still twenty four man, And I know people have
this unbelievable level of animus toward Kyle Pitts, but.

Speaker 3 (59:26):
Man, like it's deserved.

Speaker 2 (59:29):
It is kind of but like he had the big
rookie year in injury, Marred's second year kind of working
his way back from the injury third year last year,
you could, if you're really digging for excuses, say was
his first year in Zach Robinson's offense. I mean it
is definitely crossroads time for Kyle Pitts in twenty twenty five,

(59:50):
and like, if you're still on this rickety bandwagon, like
you are fleeing it if it doesn't happen for him
in twenty twenty five, And I guess I'm still on
the ring kitty bandwagon and holding on for dear.

Speaker 3 (01:00:02):
Lifelandwagon is missing a wheel. There sparks flying behind pretty much.

Speaker 1 (01:00:06):
Yes, let me let me ask you this fits. I
almost called you Pits Pat Pitts Morris over here. Do
you you have Kyle Pitts seven amongst tight ends and dynasty?
Is that a reflection of you think there's a very
clear top six and there's not a great option for
Titan seven Or is that you kind of planting your
flag and saying no, I do think this guy is
deserving of being, you know, setting aside the other competition

(01:00:30):
in general, I think Titan seven is a good spot
for a guy where he is what we've seen production.
His age is a reflection of the people around him
or of Kyle Pitts himself.

Speaker 2 (01:00:38):
Yeah, I mean it's a big ledge from six to seven.
There's no question about it. Like I think there's a
chasm between those so that that is mostly it. I
just feel like Pitts still maybe has significantly more upside
than a lot of the other guys in tier three.

Speaker 1 (01:00:55):
For me, yeah, the other guy that you guys, there's
only two players in this tier that you are both
ahead of consensus on. One of them is Kyle Pitts.
The other one's Isaiah Likely tight in fifteen for you
Bogman tighten ten for Fits tightened seventeen in the consensus
rankings on ECR. I tend to agree like this is
somebody that you need to be patient with this year,
although it wouldn't stun me if he has a true

(01:01:17):
breakout this year. But even if you think, like, okay,
he and Andrews split enough of the workload, or Andrews
is the clear one and he's the clear two this season,
I just think it's so like they are both free
agents after this year. I think it's likely that Likely
is the one that sticks around in Baltimore. But even
if he doesn't wherever he goes, He's going to be
tight end one. He is so talented. He's really good
with the ball in his hands after the catch. He's

(01:01:38):
really good at going up in high point of the ball.
Like I just think Likely is a stud receiver and
I love fits that you have him as a top
ten Dynasty tight end right now, even with the uncertain
workload this year. Bogwa, you're a little bit lower. You've
got him a tighten fifteen, but again still ahead of consensus,
and that's where I think we want to be as
a head of consensus on a guy like Likely who's

(01:01:59):
on the upswing.

Speaker 3 (01:02:00):
I agree, And I think, you know, the thing with
him is there are multiple possibilities, kind of like the
you know stuff I said with Bryce Young, it's where
is he gonna end up? Is he going to go
to an air raid system? Love him and something like that.
You know, pair him with you know, pair him with
Jade and Daniels in Washington and just watch him shine.
That would be awesome to see. But he also could

(01:02:22):
re sign with the Ravens. I just I don't know
where he's going to end up being. And he's also
one of those guys that you see the upside. I
just don't know if he's ever going to be the
one to push over the hump. So do I think
he's really good? Yes. Do I think he's worthy of
a selection specifically in tightened premium league. Absolutely, But I
do think there is on occasion too much negativity unlikely

(01:02:46):
and almost too much positivity. So I'm slightly above consensus.
I'm not going to go much higher than that.

Speaker 1 (01:02:52):
I am more along the lines with Fits. I mean,
a year from now, we might be looking at we
know Lamar Love's tight ends. We know the Ravens love
tight ends. There's not a great like you know, red
zone receiving threat amongst the receivers. It is the tight
ends if they're not running the ball that they like
to throw to. He'll be twenty six years old a
year from now and possibly the clear tight end one

(01:03:14):
with an elite quarterback. Like I think a year from now,
there's a chance he is a top five or six
dynasty tight end like that. That is how much I
believe in the talent and the potential for the situation
to look awesome. So I think tight end ten. Like
I said, for you, Fits is it's aggressive, but I
love it.

Speaker 2 (01:03:32):
Yeah, and it's fine if he wants to resign with
the Ravens as long as Andrews doesn't also resign with
the Ravens. And I think we had talked about this
on another show where IM like, if you take a
look at the I want to say, it's around nine
games that Likely has played in his career without Mark Andrews.
Take his numbers from those nine games and pro rate
them over a full NFL season. It works out to
like eight hundred and fifty yards and eleven touchdowns.

Speaker 3 (01:03:54):
Not bad. We'll take it.

Speaker 1 (01:03:55):
He's a good player and getting better. I think every
year so far he's he's talented and growing, Like like,
there's just no reason for me that he should be behind
like Dallas Goddard, John news Smith, Travis Kelcey at his age,
Evan Ingram, Like, I know there's excitement for him, so
maybe I could see the case, but like, I just
think likely it's too low.

Speaker 2 (01:04:15):
Agreed. I mean, you're not going to get big numbers
from him in in all probability, not in twenty twenty five.

Speaker 1 (01:04:22):
Yeah, some of these veterans before we move off this tier.
You know, guys like Travis Kelcey, who's obviously the oldest
guy here. You know, Jona Smith, Dallas Goddr. They're both
born in ninety five, so they're thirty or almost thirty.
You know. Jake Ferguson's a little bit younger but feels
he kind of feels like a veteran. He's at the
bottom of this tier. And consensus, any of these older
guys fits that you're at all interested in.

Speaker 2 (01:04:43):
Yeah, Kelsey for one year if I'm making a title run,
and I know what you know. It's the scary number
with him is being below ten yards per catch. But
I mean still a lot of catches, like a lot
of catches ninety plus and I still think he's going
to be involved in their offense. I don't to bury
him just yet. And I know the touchdown count was
low last year too. I think it gets back to

(01:05:04):
like six or sing I feel better. I would Boggs.
I would prop you Travis Kelcey against Trey McBride for
touchdowns for this year too, if you want to. I
don't want to do that the terms.

Speaker 3 (01:05:14):
I don't want to do that one, No, I don't.

Speaker 1 (01:05:16):
Kelsey hasn't really done much with the touchdowns lately.

Speaker 3 (01:05:18):
Though he hasn't, but it's his last year. Mahomes knows that,
and Andy Reid knows that, so they might design a
couple of plays to get him in the end zone
a little bit more so. I'll to Keimby Mutumbo that
bet let's stick to our over under seven. That that's
fine on that one. But you're right Worman, and you know,
talking about the veterans here, I think with a guy

(01:05:40):
like John new Smith, it's what is he in Pittsburgh
with friar Mouth and where is he next season?

Speaker 2 (01:05:45):
Right?

Speaker 3 (01:05:46):
Same thing with Dallas godd Like we talked, there was
all kinds of trade rumors during the draft about Dallas
godd Maybe he was gonna be moved and that didn't
end up happening, right, So where is he beyond this season?
It's great to be in Philly now, but if he's
in Carol Line in next year, is that way worse?
Is it better? I you know, we'll see where he is.
Dallas Goddard's the same deal, you know, David and Joke.

(01:06:09):
Who gives me worry because look what the Browns did
when they add him and Harrison Bryant. All they did
was let him block and now they drafted Fannin, who's
not really a tight end, but he's that slot option
he might take away from David and Jokuo overall. So
I have worries about these older veterans in general, so
I probably won't be filling my ross with many of

(01:06:29):
them this month.

Speaker 1 (01:06:30):
If you want a chance to win a signed James
Cook Bill's jersey for free courtesy of our friends at
Christineauction dot com, all you have to do is subscribe
to the Fantasy Pros YouTube channel right now, drop a
comment below on any video, and that is it. We
will be announcing a winner right here on the channel,
so make sure to turn on those notifications so you
can know when new videos are up and to claim
your prize. All right, guys, quick thoughts in Tier four,
then we'll get out of your runs from Pat Freermuth

(01:06:53):
It's tight at nineteen, then Mason Taylor, Kate Otten, Elijah Arroyo, Hunter, Henry,
Terrence Ferguson, Harold Fannin, junr Breton Strange, Cole Comet, and
then ends with the Jutavian Sanders at tight end twenty eight.
Did anybody stand out here? I do like the rookies.
I'm very interested in guys like Terence Ferguston, Elijah Royo,
Mason Taylor, like to varying degrees. I want to be

(01:07:15):
invested in these guys in Dynasty, and I think at
least one of them is going to break out. And
I'm actually excited about all three of those guys. They're
definitely the ones I'm interested in most in this group.
Like I'm not really caring that much about Pat Fryermuth
now that Johnny Smith is there, Kate Otten's never really
put it all together. Hunter Henry is the million years old,
you know. Cole Comett now has close to Loveland there.

(01:07:37):
Tavin Sanders didn't do much as a rookie. Like there's
there's a lot of question marks, and then there's the
rookies where you just kind of feel like there's some upside. Bogman,
do you see it similarly or are you interested in
some of these non rookies.

Speaker 3 (01:07:47):
I actually kind of like everybody here. This is what
makes this group fairly strong, right, the tight ends anyway,
you know, let's start with the rookies, like Mason Taylor.
I didn't even like Mason Taylor coming into the draft,
but I have him I'm high on him now and
out of this group, he is my highest ranked player
because he goes into such a good situation. He's there

(01:08:09):
with Garrett Wilson and nobody else, Like, who's gonna be
your number two target on this team? It's probably gonna
be Breecee Hall, honestly, So it's Wilson is Brie's Hall,
and then not a lot after that, it's the Reynolds
and Lazard and a bunch of Vets. So I think
Mason Taylor could come in and immediately have a big role.
And I think Terrence Ferguson, you know, I don't know
how much he's gonna do this year. It may be

(01:08:31):
like a doughnut most weeks for you this year for
Terrence Ferguson. But Higbee's one hundred and he's coming off injuries, right,
He's not gonna be around forever, so I think there's
a lot of meat on the bone for him to
make an impact there too. Harold Fannin is interesting. There's
a lot of love for Brenton Strange. I'm not as
high on it because I think Travis Hunter and Brian
Thomas eed up so many targets and the running backs.

(01:08:53):
I don't know what's gonna be left for Strange, but
his talent is strong. Fannin is teetering. It can go
one way or the other. I think Pat Fryarmouth, John
why smithter free agent next year. I think we've cut
him down a little bit too much. I think I'm
pretty positive on a lot of these tight ends, which
makes this whole group kind of just wait and take
one of them to me.

Speaker 1 (01:09:14):
I think, if I'm looking at a non rookie in
this group, my favorite value is actually Strange. I do
think I like him better than you, Bogman Fits. When
you're looking at this group, is it the rookies or
bus or are there are some of these other guys
that you're interested in.

Speaker 2 (01:09:28):
Yeah, I'm kind of interested in all of them too.
For the most part, it's just a really intriguing tier.
And I'd even add Arondez Gadst and the seconds to
this group, who got some glowing reviews out of the
chargers OTAs he's.

Speaker 3 (01:09:41):
A wide out, but he's gonna qualify the tight end
like that.

Speaker 2 (01:09:44):
And you know, like other guys, like second year guys
Theo Johnson and Ben Sinnett could almost be included at
the back end of this group. Yes, but man, I'm
just like the one who really fascinates me as Harold
Finn And anytime a tight end leads all college pass
catchers in receptions and receiving yardage set the.

Speaker 3 (01:10:03):
Tight end record ever in college.

Speaker 2 (01:10:04):
You've got my attention for sure. And I know he's
not in a great spot with the Cleveland quarterback situation
and David Nijoku ahead of him, But like I've got
Fannin on one of my Dynasty teams, I'm really anxious
to see where his career goes.

Speaker 1 (01:10:19):
I really like Ferguson. I love the draft capital the
Rams gave him. If he becomes the full time main
tight end in this offense, I just think the upside's
actually really high for him. I don't think he should
be tight at twenty four. You guys both have him
in the teens. I probably like Mason Taylor better at
the opportunity so obvious in Dynasty. But amongst these other
rookies in this range, obviously not talking about Loveland and Warrenck,

(01:10:40):
but amongst the other rookies here, I think Ferguson's my favorite.
I really like him.

Speaker 2 (01:10:44):
If Sean McVeigh decides he likes him. I mean, we
could have Ferguson as a top ten tight end a
year from now in Dynasty.

Speaker 1 (01:10:52):
It would not stun me. If a year from now
he's inside like the back end of tier two in
Dynasty tight end rankings. That's how into him I am.
But yeah, it's an interesting group of names. I think
we can go ahead and wrap up there. Obviously, like
the deeper you get like in Dynasty tight End, these
are just flyers. So you guys already mentioned like Gadsten
and Senate and some of these other names that you would,
you know, have some degree of interest in. But I

(01:11:12):
don't think we need to dive deep into anybody else.
We'll go ahead wrap things up. We went a little
long any of it, which is fine because we hit
on so many players. But yeah, this is it for
our Dynasty rank. He's the Tears. I always love doing
this series with you guys, A very fun conversation have.
So if you guys missed the running Backs and Receivers
version of the show, we did those the last couple
of weeks, so everybody should be sure to check those
out as well. If you want to hear what the

(01:11:33):
three of us think about players really across the board.
We pretty much hit on every name we could, at
the least reading them out loud at the very least
one time. So we'll go ahead and wrap things up
for Bogman and Fits. I'm Ryan warmly thanks for tuning in.
We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the
Fantasy Pros Dynasty Football Podcast. If you love the show,
the best freeway to support us is by leaving a
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(01:11:58):
and TikTok at Fantasy Pros, and subscribe to our YouTube
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Studs, Busts and Sleepers | Quarterback + Tight End Rankings and Tiers (Ep. 254)

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Studs, Busts and Sleepers | Quarterback + Tight End Rankings and Tiers (Ep. 254)