June 1, 2023 • 44 mins
Tune in as Joe Pisapia, Pat Fitzmaurice, and Andrew Erickson dissect the tight end landscape, bring you our expert consensus top 30 TE rankings & tiers, and debate the players they have the biggest difference of opinions on. What is Darren Waller's range of outcomes this year? The Pros will tell you!
Sponsors:
FantasyPros Championship at FFPC - We've partnered with FFPC to bring you the FantasyPros Championship, a $350 entry season-long fantasy football contest with $6M in total prizes including $1M to 1st place! Drafts are open today, sign up at fantasypros.com/championship and use promo code FANTASYPROS for $25 off of your entry. Enter the contest before June 1st and draft your team before June 15th for an additional Early Bird credit of $35.
Timestamps:
Travis Kelce - 0:01:28
Kyle Pitts - 0:05:00
Darren Waller - 0:10:45
FantasyPros Championship at FFPC - 0:16:43
insert - 0:17:35
Pat Freiermuth - 0:17:35
Evan Engram - 0:20:44
Cole Kmet - 0:25:58
Juwan Johnson - 0:31:18
Mike Gesicki - 0:35:11
Dalton Kincaid - 0:38:46
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome in everybody to Fantasy Pros. This is the Fantasy
Football Podcast. It is me Joey P Joe Pisapia, and
today we're gonna take a deep dive on the tight
end rankings, the tears, where the drop offs are, who's
the superlative and who doesn't make the grade. And to
help us do it, of course, is Pat Fitzmorris, the
host of our Dynasty Podcast. If you haven't already subscribed
to that, you should wherever you get your podcast, because
(00:23):
it's a fantastic show him and Scott Bogman breaking down
all the Dynasty characters that you need. And in twenty
twenty three redraft, you have to know these guys because
it is definitely a changeover season. So make sure you're
listening to the Dynasty pod there and you might as
well also check out Pat's incredible work as well over
on Fantasypros dot Com. He's got a great series going
breaking down all of the Dynasty players and he I
(00:43):
think he just dropped the tight end piece, Pat If
I'm correct? Am I correct in saying.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
This start up strategy at various positions, Joe, including tight acd.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Yes sounds sexy. I love it. Speaking of sexy, there's
Andrew Erickson over there hanging out, ready to go, ready
to rock, bringing the big pod energy as he always does.
And I encourage everybody who's listening to the pod to
also watch us over on the YouTube channel so you
can see all of the rankings and tiers in living color,
because that's how we're doing it today here on the
YouTube channel, so you can see where all the names
(01:13):
are in terms of the ECR. And we're going to
be comparing the boys' rankings to the ECR and to
each other to see where all the variance is. So again,
make sure you subscribe to Fantasy Pro's YouTube channel and
cut that little belt that goes ding, so you know
every time a piece of content drops here on our channel.
And let's just jump head first here because obviously Travis
Kelcey is the one in ECR, he's the one in
(01:34):
our hearts all that good stuff. But at the same time, gentlemen,
it's kind of interesting that in the ECR you have
Travis Kelcey as the one in the Superlative tier along
with Mark Andrews and t J. Hawkinson and no knock
on those two guys. They're terrific, But Kelsey's really gonna
standalone tier of its own. To me, he is the
only S tier tight end fits. Do you agree with
(01:55):
that notion too, that you know there's there's still a
you can call those guys all the time of the position,
but there's one guy who is really at the very
top of this mountain.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
I agree, Joe. I mean, he has finished as the
tight end one in PPR scoring in six of the
last seven seasons, got clipped by Mark Andrews in twenty
twenty one, but Kelsey has strung together seven straight one
thousand yard seasons. He's averaged eight point four touchdowns a
year over that span. He's gonna be thirty one in October.
(02:26):
But he's been pretty indestructible basically. I mean, he missed
a game in twenty twenty due to COVID nineteen, but
has not missed a game due to injury over the
last nine years. So it's hard to make a case
that anyone really belongs on his strata ericson.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Just to give a little bit of definition to how
much better Travis Kelcey is and everybody else, not just
a great SNL performance, which it was, he was tremendous
that night. But also if you look at the relative
position value statistic, which is compares you know, the Fantasy
League average tie end and everybody else in their peers,
he was eighty nine percent better and more productive than
(03:06):
the Fantasy League average tight end last year. That's stunning.
So basically, took the top twelve guys and compared to
each other, Travis Kelcey was that much of an advantage.
So clearly he should be the guy at the top.
And I don't want people thinking going into draft seas
and erics and that the other guys are good consolation
prizes because it really is not the same. It's apples
and oranges, right.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Yeah, I mean you're better off comparing Travis kelce to
the top players at wide receiver and running back than
you are comparing him to other tight ends. It's like
Travis kelce tight end and then a tier off and
then every other tight end because that's the type of
production he's been putting up.
Speaker 4 (03:39):
Because that's the question mark you're asking me.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
It's like, am I going to draft Travis Kelcey fifth overall,
sixth overall because that's kind of where we see his
ADP kind of settle in some of these one quarterback leagues,
and then Titan Premium. I mean you can take him first,
it's like second overall because of the way that that
scoring system is set up. So, yeah, he's entering his
age thirty four season, but so far as fits laid out, like,
there really hasn't been any drop off in his production. Now,
(04:04):
the question is, okay, Ken Kelcey, like you just mentioned
off his scoring relative to the field of tight end, well,
is that repeatable? Is he going to be able to
be so much more dominant than every other tight end?
Let's say he drops off a little bit and the
field catches up. Okay, maybe this wasn't the year to
draft Kelsey in the middle of round one because Mark
Andrews or TG Hawkinson end up being better values and
(04:24):
rounds three and four. But at the end of the day,
which Titan's gonna score the most points, it's probably gonna
Travis Kelsey.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Yeah, I would agree with that, and I still stand
by the fact that if I'm gonna draft Kelsey, I'd
rather do it with a top six pick then wait
and do it later on because I feel like all
the roster construction, I just like so much better when
I just if you're gonna go for Kelsey, just do
it as opposed to, you know, kind of waiting and
letting it slip down the trough a little bit. Now obviously,
you know, as we discussed before, Andrews Hawkinson also very good.
(04:52):
George Kittle is in that a tier that next tier
for you fit, so he is still kind of in
that grouping. But what's so fascinating here in your eighty
in your tier here Ericson is actually Kyle Pitts. And
I want to talk about Kyle Pits because this is
a player Andrew we all loved last year, me included.
I tried to warn everybody about Marcus Mariota. Everybody tried,
(05:13):
you know, really hard, and was successful ignoring me. He did,
in fact, ruin Kyle Pitts unfortunately. And now I'm not
saying Desmond Ritter is the savior of Kyle Pitts. But
when you look at this lineup year over year that
they've constructed, here you have Drake London, you have Kyle Pits,
you have Bjean Robinson. I think there's reason to be
more optimistic this year, and it seems like you are
(05:33):
of the same where you're looking for that Kyle Pitts
bounce back, right.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Andrew, I think so, I'm trying to be optimistic and
hopeful because I think that the talent is there for
Kyle Pitts, and it's really about the situation. And when
I look back at my hits and misses about players,
it's always because I overinvested in the situation. I was like,
I'm not drafting X player because his situation is bad.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
Or it's off.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
And I know exactly how this offense is going to
play out, like we all think we know what the
Falcons is going to be. We know all they're going
to run the ball a million times and there's not
getting enough volume in the passing game for anybody to
catch any balls week in and week out. But things change,
Guys get hurt, think surprised. Doesn't Rider could be better
than we think. He could be worse than we think.
So there's a lot of question marks and then asking,
(06:14):
okay is baked into the ADP. Kyle Pitts is less
expensive than he was last year, and what's really changed
He has design Rider instead of Marcus Mariota. I don't
think ridders like this amazing quarterback whatsoever. But I think
he's better than Marcus Mariota is at least delivering the
ball downfield. So for those reasons, Look, if Pitts hits,
I think that's something that can actually give you an
(06:35):
advantage on your fantasy team versus if he misses again, Okay,
well you're gonna be stuck with every other person that
has a bad tight end. Like that's kind of the
downfall with him. So yes, I am trying to be
a little bit more optimistic about Kyle Pitts, but at
the same time, I don't feel great about clicking the
button on him, Like I realize the risks with drafting him,
and it's not every drafting like I have to get
(06:56):
Kyle Pits in this draft. No, Like it really depends
on my roster construction. It depends on what other Titans
are available. But I don't want to just not have
any pal Pits this year because I think that's just
kind of going into blind and ignoring talent.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Well, he is the fifth tight end over fantasypros dot Com,
and again you can check out all the rankings there
fantasypros dot Com slash rankings to see where all of
these are lying, and he is the fifth tight end
not only in Ericson's rankings but also in yours. Pat However,
in yours you have him down a tier, which I
think makes sense. So you still have Andrews, Hawkins and
Kittle kind of as that a tier, and then Pitts
(07:31):
begins your B tier. And I feel like that's very
fair assessment in terms of your evaluation of Pits based
off the big disappointment of last year. So what are
your expectations in twenty twenty three and do you feel
the same way Erickson does, which is more about not
as much targeting Pits is looking for the value of
Pits and drafts.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
It is fair, Joe, but I actually want to do
over on that, Like, if I could do it again,
I would put Pits in the A level. I think,
like I'm with Ericson. I know that problems. You know,
I don't know how much better than Marcus Mariota Desmond
Ritter is going to be. But here we have a
guy who, like his his ability to draw targets is
(08:11):
pretty impressive, Like he's done a lot of that. And
let's not forget that he was the first rookie receiver
since Mike Ditka sixty years earlier to have a thousand
yard rookie season, and he did it in a season
in which that he began when he was twenty years old.
So this guy is just a freakish talent. Last year,
like his average depth of target, because Pitts is so
(08:34):
much like a wide receiver, it was over thirteen yards.
It was like thirteen point eight yards, which you know,
not really optimal when Marcus Mariota is the quarterback, and
which was why we were seeing so many comical overthrows, underthrows,
you know, wide throws, so basically.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Well to that point, Pat, you know, only because you're
you're bringing up the Mariota point too. The one thing
I think if you watch Ritter in Cincinnati, and I
know you and I both did a fair amount the
last few years before he got to the NFL, is
I felt that he was he was pretty accurate in
terms of, you know, getting rid of the football in
the right spot and managing that offense pretty well. And
I think he's a very bright kid too, So I
(09:12):
think he's kind of he's going to be a little
bit more aware of, you know, certain situations he wants
to avoid and when he wants to be aggressive and
not be aggressive. And I think that could be an
improvement year over year from what Mariota was, because Mariota
just seemed like he had no feel for it whatsoever.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Right, And to that point, Joe like, if Desmond Ritter
can't do it, they also have Taylor Heineke behind him,
and Heinike is never going to be an above average
starting NFL quarterback, but he was at least like able
to facilitate his pass catchers in Washington and make those
guys fantasy viable. So you know, he's kind of the
(09:49):
safety nets for Kyle Pitts. So I am optimistic, And
I know a lot of fantasy managers get mad when
we recommend Kyle Pitts and then Kyle Pitts goes out
and lays an egg like he did last year. And
you know a lot of venom on Twitter over that
sort of thing. But man, it sounds like ericson and
I and you, Joe are right back here recommending Kyle Pitts. Again.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
I'm back here recommending him. But I was really concerned
last year. And Erickson's smirking because he knows we've gotten
many fights last year about this and just you know,
when you've seen enough Marcus Mariota, you know, and and
I understand Ritter is not Patrick Mahomes. I'm well aware
of this, but I do think there's room for improvement there,
just in the basic level of quarterback play and understanding
(10:33):
when to throw the football in certain places and where
it should be more importantly, but let's continue on with
some other names here, because you continue on to the
A group on Fantasy pro zcr. After Pitts is Dallas Goddard,
very steady, and then Darren Waller, another buy back kind
of guy. Now, Pat, he is number seven right now
you've got Darren Waller, you know, kind of in that
(10:55):
same range at seven, you've got him in the B tier.
Now Andrew is even more Darren Waller, debro forget it.
We did a show yesterday if you missed it with
Jake Seely where he basically said Darren Waller's going to
finish as the tight end two overall. So go ahead
and go drop your comments on that video because I
can't wait to read those. But let's talk about Darren Waller, Pat,
because this is another dude that we've absolutely seen the
(11:17):
ceiling and it is incredible. You can make the case,
as Derek did on yesterday's show, about the Giants really
need somebody else to emerge in this group of past
catchers because the wide receivers are lacking. But it's the
injury bug of Darren Waller the last two years that's
really destroyed his value. So how do you feel about
his value coming into twenty twenty three.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
I don't like it at all, Joe. I'm probably not
going to have Darren Waller in any league. I don't
think he should be a top five guy. I just
think there's too much risk here. And I think maybe
people are looking at that wide receiver group and maybe
sort of wish casting a little bit with Darren Waller
because they see all.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
These Ironically, wish casting was also the buzzword yesterday. So
you and Derek Brown now have to put a dollar
in the jar for the wish cast and you guys
are we looked it up online. It costs like seventeen
hundred dollars to buy the URL, so you know, we
have to put all that money aside, so we the
purchase at the end of the season.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
So, I mean, part of it is that the Giants
have this collection of Liliputians playing wide receiver, and Waller
is this gigantic target. So of course, you know everyone
thinks every time Daniel Jones throws a pass in the
green zonner of the red zone, it's going to Darren Waller,
and maybe he will get an inordinate number of those targets.
(12:31):
But man, I mean those back to back thousand yard
seasons he had in twenty nineteen and twenty twenty, they
are starting to look really small in the rear view mirror.
Those were a long time ago. He's missed fourteen games
the last two years. He's going to be thirty one
in September. I think I said Travis Kelsey was going
to be thirty one. I was thinking of Waller when
I said that. And here's the like, I'm not really
(12:51):
a big schedule guy. That doesn't really affect how I draft,
but Waller is a really brutal schedule this year. I
mean he the teams in the NFC East Washington fourth
fewest Fantasy points per game two opposing tight ends, Dallas
third fewest, Philadelphia thirteenth fewest, and then some of their
(13:12):
non divisional opponents, The Saints first against tight ends Buffalo
second against tight ends. Packers and forty nine ers both
top ten in fewest points allowed to tight end. So
it's kind of a tough schedule for a guy who
was down to forty three point one yards per game
last year, pretty much the lowest since his breakout season
in Oakland. So I'm just like, I'm not in on
(13:32):
Waller at all this year.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Well, the guy who is in is Andrew Erickson, because
you've got him at tight end three. So you and
Debro must have been hanging out at the bar late
last night. So let's talk about this because Pat brings
a lot of good data here, including we always know
going into every season, you know what looks like tough
schedules can change dramatically with you know, personnel changes or
potentially even injuries. But it's a really strong case against
(13:56):
Darren Waller. So let me hear the case for Darren
Waller for people who want to draft him because you
like him as the third tight end. That's pretty spectacular
considering right now ECRs got him closer to ten, he's
seventh overall.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Well, I think part of it is I like the
price of Darren Waller. I like that he's cheaper than
I don't need to draft him as the title. He's
not going to be the tight end three when you
draft him. So what I'm telling people that look at
my rankings is, no, you don't have the draft Anders,
you don't have to draft Hockins, and you don't have
to draft Kittle in round four, round five. Just wait
till round nine, round eight when Darren Waller goes off
(14:29):
the board, because I'm looking for a tight end that
can lead his team in targets, like there's only a
handful of these guys that even exist. And yes, the
concerns are can Darren Waller stay healthy? Don't know, but
if you draft any tight end, any mid round tight end,
and they get hurt, that's going to kill your roster regardless.
So now at least the risk is mitigated a little
bit because Waller is cheaper than those other players. And
(14:51):
I think that I know that it's been a while
since he's been able to put up the production, but
he's done it before. Like there are a bunch of
titands going ahead and that have never been tight ones
or been.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Car so now you're expecting to do with Daniel Jones
was not exactly a prolific throw of the football either, I.
Speaker 4 (15:08):
Mean, who's he been throwing the ball to? Like I can.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
I can spend the argument in two different WAYSS have
to answer your question.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
You know what a little a Putian is, don't you?
Speaker 2 (15:15):
No?
Speaker 4 (15:16):
Be honest, I do not know.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
I love it. It's short people like me. That's why
I know what it is. But continue on.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
I just think I like buying into Waller's upside. I'm
not guys concerned about his downside with the injuries. I
think that they're going to use him in a way
that's good for fantasy, like using him in the red zone,
using him his score fantasy points.
Speaker 4 (15:34):
I'm not really worried about the schedule.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Like players get hurt all the time in terms of
the defense, so I'm not overly concerned about Waller. I'm
not going to not draft him because of his tough
schedule against tight ends, which changes dramatically year over year.
And it just goes back to like he can be
the number one target on his team, Like there's not
many tight ends that fall into that category, and that's
what kind of separates him. He's not one of these
tight ends where a lot of the Titans on this list,
(15:57):
like Dallas Goddard. Okay, Dallas Godder needs an injury to
really unlock his ceiling, like I think we can all
agree on that.
Speaker 4 (16:03):
Darren Waller doesn't. Like he doesn't need well.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
I think I feious to get hurt for him to
have a higher ceiling or unlock that ceiling, whereas Dallas Goddard,
even George Kittle, Like George Kittle does not put up
high end numbers when Ayuk is healthy, when McCaffrey's out there,
when Deebo Samuel's out there, Like if you look at
all the touchdowns he scored last year, Deebo wasn't playing
in half those games. But Waller doesn't have to deal
(16:26):
with that. And I think considering the price too, that's
why I like him at his value.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Will you make a really good case I think for
the upside pick there, so you're saying, you know, that's
where the ceiling is. And again, will we rank. We're
trying to show people what we think the perceived value
could be in the return at the end of the year,
not so much what the consensus is. That's what the
consensus is for, and that's why you follow people individually.
Here's what's interesting too. If you're looking at the Fantasy
Pros Championship at FFPC, his ADP right now he is
(16:52):
going basically fifty ninth player overall. So that's an interesting
value over on there, and if you want to get
involved in that. By the way, everybody who's listening and
watching Fantasypros dot Com slash Championship is sign up, use
that promo code Fantasy Pros. You get twenty five bucks
off your entry, so go do that. And there's also
the extra discount. If you sign up by June first
(17:12):
and complete a draft by June fifteenth, you get a
thirty five dollars extra early bird credit. So that's pretty awesome.
And I remember the main prize there a million dollars,
a million dollars for playing fantasy football. We're also giving
away Fantasy Pros a Betting Pro subscription. So take advantage
of early ADP and take advantage of going in and
getting involved in our Fantasy Pro Championship at FFPC. If again,
that's a Fantasypros dot Com slash Championship. Let's talk about
(17:35):
another tight end here. Pat Fryarmouth one of my favorite
guys fits. He is also in your B tier as
we continue to look. But Andrew, you don't seem to
love Pat Frymoth. You've got him all the way in
the C tier. So is it just a matter of
the role in the Steelers offense? Like why the no
love for Pat Fryarmouth.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
I think that he's just really touchdown dependent and it
depends on how many touchdimes I think Kenny pick is
gonna throw. I don't see Kenny Pickett going out tossing
thirty five touchdowns. So if Pat Friarmouth is now not
seeing as much touchdown voluim as he needs, he's competing
for targets with Deontay Johnson, with George Pickens, who I
like a lot. Now you Harris catching passes outside in
the backfield. I guess for me, it's just like, where
(18:15):
is this amazing upside for a guy like Pat Firemouth?
And he kind of goes in that range of the
middle of tight end where I think Firemuth is better
than a lot of other tight ends from a real
life perspective. But am I actually gaining any edge whatsoever
drafting him at tight end nine tight end ten when
he outscores Mike Giseki by fifty points and by one
(18:36):
point per game, Like, what does that do for me
when I could have drafted a running back, a receiver
with breakout potential where he's going instead of draft and
then waiting to draft the tight end later. I just
don't see the gap between his production being so much
largely better than guys going later, which is why I'm
just like I could, I could pass on Firemuth where
he's going.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
All right, Pat, you're obviously higher on Fiarmouth. I assume
it's more than just the name brand value for you,
but also you know, you got to support guys named Pat.
I want to understand from your perspective too, Andrews saying,
you know, I expect Kenny Pickett to throw thirty five touchdowns,
that's fair, But do we expect him to look for
Pat Froermuth in the red zone? And I think the
answer is a big yes. So how do you rank
(19:16):
Pat Fryermuth or you know, in your terms of value
as opposed to the board that's got him as tight
end nine. Where do you see him ending up at
the end of the year.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Yeah, I mean, I'd like to think that he will
be a frequently sought after end zone target for Kenny
Pickett Joe. But I mean to kind of push back
on something Ericson just said, like, I don't know if
he's that touchdown dependant anymore. He very much was his
first year when he had under five hundred yards but
had seven touchdowns. Last year only two touchdowns, but he
(19:44):
was still somewhat fantasy viable because he had seventy sorry
sixty three catches for seven hundred and thirty two yards,
So like he was still a playable tight end even
though he wasn't scoring touchdowns. And we saw the Pittsburgh
offense become more efficient late in the year. You know,
we know George Pickens doesn't really draw targets at a
(20:04):
high rate, so I'm optimistic that we're still going to
see plenty of targets for Friarmuth. And I mean, I
just think he's a really good value relative to Darren Waller.
I don't necessarily disagree with what Ericson is saying about
maybe waiting and getting a just taking Mike Kasicki six
or seven rounds later, and you know, kind of dumpster
(20:25):
diving at tight end that way. But I don't know,
I mean, I do think Friarmuth is a reasonable option
if you're gonna not shop on the top the Gucci
level of tight ends Joe. But if you're going to
go to you know, Target and get your tight ends,
I think Friarmuth is a reasonable option there.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
You can find some good durable products at the Target.
I think Evan Ingram's interesting one too, because he is
ranked eighth right above friar Muth on the ECR rankings,
So these are guys still in the theoretical a tier
over on Fantasy pros. Evan Ingram coming off a surprisingly
good season, but I think pat the big problem now
is the addition of Calvin Ridley. The question of how
(21:05):
these targets get dispersed now and will the offense continue
to utilize the tight end as much as it did now.
They did bring him back, they franchised him, so now
he's back for one more year. So what are your
thoughts on Evan Ingram being able to repeat the success
of last year, because it seems like from the ECER
that's almost what the quote unquote experts are expecting.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yeah, it was nice that he did. He'd been such
a tease for so long. Joe. He had that great
rookie season with the Giants and then just we kept
expecting more and more from him in every season it
was injuries or just bad cases of the drops, but
finally everything kind of clicked and he and Trevor Lawrence
really got on the same page last year. Was nice
to see. So he finishes with seventy three catches seven
(21:46):
hundred and sixty six yards, only four touchdowns, but still
quite valuable, and then had a big game in the
playoffs seven catches ninety three in a touchdown in that
epic come from behind win against the Chargers. So yes,
I think we have to expect a little drop in
the target count with Calvin Ridley coming aboard. But I
(22:07):
mean I still think Evan Ingram is a solid low
end tight end one option, you know, and hopefully just
he was so good last year, I find it hard
to think that he would slip back to the disappointing
level he was at in those later years with the Giant.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
He still slides into your B tier. But Ericson, You've
got Evan Ingram in your C tier, actually right after
Pat Freimu, so you got the same guys right in there.
But a little bit lower down on the trough. So
talk to me about your thoughts on Evan Ingram or
maybe your concerns considering your ranks.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
I yeah, I think with Evan Ingram it's everyone is
just looking at last year's like, oh, it finally worked out,
like let's buy in, and he's just gonna disappoint us all.
I think Evan Ingram is probably one of the bigger,
stronger fades I'm going to have at tight end this season,
looking at Jacksonville's offense adding in Calvin Ridley. Look, part
of the reason why Evan Ingram was good last year
(23:01):
was because he didn't get hurt. Like this guy's been
banged up every single season of his career. He finally
stays healthy and now he's back in the tight end
top ten, Like can he do it again? Joe? When
you introduced Evan Ingram as the player of debate here,
you talked about his surprising finish last year because we
knew he was talented, But the guy.
Speaker 4 (23:19):
Can never stay healthy.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
And I brought this up on multiple shows talking about
Jacksonville specifically, they were the healthiest team last year. That
doesn't happen year over year. It's very very difficult to replicate.
So I don't want to say that I'm the magical
oracle projecting that Jacksonville Jaguars are going to be destroyed
by injuries, but just based on the math, like they're
probably gonna experience more injuries than they had last year,
(23:40):
and who's a guy that is most likely to kind
of fall victim to that. It would probably be a
guy like Evan Ingram who has a history of injuries
and stayed healthy all of last season. He's already skipping
OTA's like. It just has a lot of signs of
like yeah, like there's a lot of like peripheral here
with Evan Ingram where it's like, m I get why
he's ranked where he's ranked because tight end is so
bad and you kind of have to just put him
(24:00):
up there because what he did last year. But it
goes back to making bets. Low end tight end ones
on draft day are bad bets because even if they
outscore tight end fifteen through twenty four, it's not by much,
but you still had to invest a top ten draft
pick in them. So for those reasons, like almost emman,
Ingram falls into a late round territory, I'm not touching
(24:21):
him like it does not happening.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
I understand that. I also think there's something to be
said for the evolution of a quarterback and Trevor Lawrence
as a young quarterback, as he continues to grow and mature,
we'll probably look less for the tight end and more
for the wide receiver targets, especially if you are looking
at adding a piece like Calvin Ridley. And I'm not
trying to annoying Calvin Ridley as Calvin Johnson or anything
like that, but he is a very useful potential piece
(24:44):
and he got so much out of Christian Kirkins A
Jones last year. The fact that they're kind of bringing
this whole band back together, and we'll see whatever Travis
at ends up doing in this offense as well. If
he catches more passes, we shall see. Continuing on, though,
the last guy in this top ten on Fantasy Pros
again in the eight tier to close it out is
David and Joku, who we can all discuss at nauseum.
(25:05):
We've all been waiting for David. Joko's just another wait,
I think basically for all of us to see, Okay,
what will he do now with this quarterback? And will
Deshaun Watson be that guy. For him, I still say
it's Elijah Moore, so I'm not gonna be putting too
much stock in him. The next grouping is really interesting though,
because now we're into the basically be tier on Fantasy Pros,
which again, now we start to really dive deep into
(25:26):
the guy's ranks and all the variants. We have Dalton
Schultz at eleven based off of what he did with
the Cowboys. That's a tough sell because he ain't with
the Cowboys. It's another team in Texas, Jiggy and Konkuo,
another guy who flashed last year some moments put a
lot of unknowns about what that Tennessee Titans offense is
going to be. Cole Kmet at the thirteenth Titan overall,
(25:47):
certainly another guy flashed some moments, a former Notre Dame guy,
Greg Dulcic moments, Tyler Higbee again another tough sell. I
think we've been down that role before, and then Gerald Everett.
That rounds out the top six team.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Now.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
I think when we look at your ranks and the
differences between a lot of these guys, it's fascinating to
me because I would say when you're looking at this group,
cole Comett is that one that really stands out to
me if this offense is going to take another step forward.
I've always been a fan of cole Comett. I've always
hoped that they would evolve the passing game a little
bit more. Ericson, you've got cole Comette, let me let
(26:21):
me kind of reset for everybody. There is no D
tier for Ericson. He goes from the guys he likes
of the C tier, it's D tier, and then everybody's
in the F. But cole Comett is the first guy
in your F tier. So why is he the first
guy there? Do you have the most hope for him
to be able to crack the ceiling of this tight
end one group?
Speaker 3 (26:39):
No, because he was the last player in my Seatier,
and then I was looking at him versus some of
the other players in my seat here and I was like, no,
I think that he should be in a tier below.
Speaker 4 (26:46):
So that's why he defaulted to that.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
But you kept Dalton Schultz in your Seatier, Why?
Speaker 3 (26:50):
Because Dalton Schultz can lead the Texans and targets and
co Comette is not going to lead the Bears and targets, Like.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
It's well, like John Metchi's gonna lead the Texans and targets.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
He's never gotten a single target in the NFL. Joe,
that's a really bolt.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Yeah, but he got a crap ton of him in Alabama. Baby,
while guy knows what to do with them.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
Tight end one season with the Dallas Cowboys' sport something
where Cole Comett.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
But he's not taking the Dallas Cowboys with him.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
Yeah, but I'm just saying, but Cole Comett has more
competition with the Bears. Like, like, the reason I like
co Comett last year is because they had nobody else
on offense. But now they do.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
They have played Devil's advocate. Does he have more a
competition quote unquote or does he finally have at least
you know, DJ Moore and Darnol Moody to viable wide
receivers where all of a sudden Cole Comett might actually
be able to operate and do.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
His job for one now because Titans need targeting. That's like,
that's the most important thing for me. I'm not going
to go out here and project, oh well, now his
efficiency is going to be through the roof, because Titan
efficiency is tied to athleticism and touchdowns. Co Comett is
a okay athlete, Like he's not some superstar, and we
saw him last year have a spike weeks because of
(28:01):
touchdowns and projecting.
Speaker 4 (28:03):
Oh well, I know exactly.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
Mkokoman's gonna have all these touchdowns spikes with Justin Fields
throwing the ball forty times per game, which probably still
won't happen. Like that's a hard bet to make. So yeah,
he's there because he's had some proven production. But like
my F tier, I really find it hard to parse
between guys at tight end fifteen to tight end thirty.
And that's why once you get to this middle range, wait, wait,
(28:25):
wait longer, Like I don't want to draft Tyler Higbee
as the tight end sixteen because I could just draft
a guy that's like gonna score one point less per
game as tight end twenty four. I just find it
really to be hardly bullish on most of these players.
And the only guys I'm really bullish on I moved
up into my sea tier like Chicka Konquo, Like I
like him as a late round tight end, which means
he will inevitably bust because he's the one light round ten,
(28:46):
and I actually like, but that's who I'm gonna push
my chips in on Chicka Conco like that's light round
ten and I won.
Speaker 4 (28:52):
I don't want these other guys.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Yes, the prolific throwing offense, that is the ten, but
he's athletics.
Speaker 4 (28:57):
That's going to fixed up for it. He's athletic.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
I'm athletic too. Yet I'm here sitting here every day
and still just standing still talking into a camera all
the time. So it doesn't always get utilized. I'm just saying,
we get utilized once a year when we have our
fancy pros outing and we play sports. That's it. That's
when it gets utilized. Fits you are a believer. It
looks like in Schultz and Comet because you got them
both in your Seatier. So I want to talk about
these two guys. So do you see what Ericson sees.
(29:20):
Obviously you must have Schultz still kind of in that
viable range. Do you believe he has the opportunity to
lead the Texans and targets as Erickson was saying.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
I guess so yeah, I mean I don't want to
see that wasn't.
Speaker 4 (29:32):
Very I'm on here and be the bullish on Dalton Schultz.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Nobody if you're listening for ringing Dalton Schultz endorsement, you
ever really come to the right wrong tree? Joe, Right, Yeah,
But like I see the possibility that he could be,
uh the target leader there, and it's just what is
the quality of the targets going to look like coming
from CJ. Stroud and you know, in a what might
(29:57):
be kind of a dysfunctional offense this year. So I'm
a little worried about it. Plus I've always thought Dalton
Schultz was kind of just a guy, and you know,
just the guy worked really well in Dallas when he
was the guy at tight end for them in a
couple of years. But I just yeah, I mean, the
target outlook looks much better for him than it does
(30:17):
for Cole Kmett. But if these guys were in similar situations,
I'd have cant Comet ranked much higher. I mean, Comet
did lead the Bears in targets, catches, receiving yards and
touchdown catches last year, but then again, they were if
they threw three wide outs on the field, it was
like who.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
Was second in that category?
Speaker 1 (30:41):
But to Pat's point, they didn't have the talent that
they wanted to throw out there right one, and they
had to, and they'd have talent to move then. You know,
I think, you know, whenever you bring in the talent,
and Dj Moore is a talented guy. I think when
you bring in a legitimate wide receiver to an offense
that's grossly lacking one, just grossly lacking talent in that area,
and then Darna Moodey flies into probably what he should be,
which is a number two, then you can really run
(31:03):
a different offense. And they have enough running backs to
do that as well, and they have Justin Fields who
really kind of found his confidence last year. Now it's
just a matter of putting the confidence in him to
throw the football. And I think it's easier to develop
confidence when you have the talent on the field to
throw the football too. I don't think we've seen the
best that I can met yet, so I'm still I'm
gonna still ride that horse.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Here.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
You've got Juwan Johnson in this grouping two, which obviously
I'm not gonna talk about where Erickson has him because
it's ridiculous. He's actually seventeen, so he's at the beginning
of this next year. The seat here as it were
on the Fantasy pros ECR. So do you see the
opportunity for Juwan Johnson pat in twenty twenty three? I do.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
I mean, he finished tight end eleven and half point
PPR scoring last season with forty two catches five hundred
and eight yard seven touchdowns. Saints didn't take anyone from
this deep tight end rookie class, and then they traded
away Adam Troutman to Denver. They did sign Foster Moreau,
who's recovering from cancer. I guess he's expected to be
(31:59):
good to go for the regular season, but you know,
I don't know Foster Moreau is going to be that
much of a threat to Juan Johnson's role here. And
like I know, Juwan Johnson didn't have heavy draft capital
coming into the NFL, But like, the guy's just good,
Like he's he's a good pass catcher. He gets an
upgraded quarterback with Derek Carr, and you know, I'm cautiously optimistic,
(32:23):
and he's still pretty cheap. People just haven't really bought
into Juwan Johnson yet, but maybe they should.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
Yeah. I had a couple of shares I picked up
off the waiver wire last year and pleasantly surprised use
him in DFS too. You know, Eric said, you've got
him far down the trough. Obviously he's part of the
f troop, as I'll just call him for your group.
So in your opinion, do you see any upside at
all when it comes to Juwan Johnson that Pat's talking about?
Speaker 4 (32:44):
Yeah, I see the upside.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
I mean you can make the upside case for a
lot of these guys when things break their way, because
when you're going late round tight end, that's what has
to happen or else they get dropped. So Juwan Johnson,
if he catches a bunch of touchdowns like he did
last year, it's just a matter of Okay, is he
gonna have a touchdown regression?
Speaker 2 (33:00):
Like?
Speaker 3 (33:00):
How is he going to fit in the target pecking order?
Is Michael Thomas going to play? Who's Derek Carr's favorite
target going to be Foster Moreau?
Speaker 4 (33:07):
Is there?
Speaker 3 (33:07):
Maybe Foster Morow isn't necessarily taking away targets, but he's
take away snaps. Like I was much higher on Jawan
Johnson before they signed Foster morew I'll admit that, like
I thought Juwan Johnson was, he was in my top fifteen.
I was like, here we go, like wheels up. But
then they didn't draft one. And then they signed Foster Moreau.
And remember Moreau spent his entire career in Las Vegas
(33:28):
slash Oakland with Derek Carr. Like that matters, clearly, Derek
Carr has a chemistry already built in with Foster Moreau,
who was pretty hit or miss as a replacement when
Darren Waller missed time. But we see this all the
time from tight ends where their first stop, their first
team that they get drafted. Famously, Delaney Walker with the
forty nine Ers did pretty much nothing, went to the Titans,
became a fantasy star. Not saying Foss Morow is going
(33:50):
to do that, but there's an opportunity there for him,
potentially in New Orleans to do that. So that's the
only reason I'm really hesitant on Juwan Johnson. But I
do see the path theop side where he is in
an athletic tight end, former wide receiver, big body, So yeah,
I'm not oppost to drafting him as a late round option.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
I would say to that though, that uh Foster morrole
when when Waller was hurt, it wasn't hit or miss
it was pretty much miss or miss, Like he didn't
really do anything when Waller was you know, like there
was are you just.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
Talking about last year especially or like, I mean last
year was bad, but yeah, I feel like in previous
years he did a little bit more. I mean, he
also had like a really good I mean, he played
a lot of snaps, which again is that because that's
just the role that was asked to be on the offense.
But he has a three down skill set where he
can block, he can run routes, and that potentially could
(34:40):
eat into Jawan Johnson, who again was really reliant on
touchdowns last year.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
So the uh, the other guys in the seatier just
kind of closes out the top thirty. So basically this
is this is the clump I think is the best
way to put it here over the ECR. So Juwan
Johnson at seventeen, the Dawson Knocks at eighteen, Mike is
Sicki at nineteen, then McBride, Ertz, Taysom Hill, Noah Fan.
Then we get the rookies begin We got Dalton Kinkada
(35:05):
twenty four. Later on you'll get Michael Maher at thirty,
and you'll get Sam Laport at thirty one right outside.
Now we'll get to the rookies in the second because
I want to touch on Mike Kaseki for a moment
if I can, because I know Ericson he is in
your f tiar like everybody else, You've got him in
the D tier still fits. So do you see, potentially,
now that Bill O'Brien is back calling plays here for
(35:26):
the New England Patriots, the potential for Mike Kasiki, who
is a pretty good pass catcher, a pretty good route
runner that was just not part of the style of play.
I think of what the Dolphins offense became under Mike McDaniel.
Do you see Kaseki opportunity as one of these guys?
Maybe if you're throwing multiple darts at late tight ends,
Kasiki's won to throw.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
I do. And I just had my first Redraft League
draft and I wound up, you know, it was like
a twenty round draft, and I took Mike Kisiki as
my second tight end, and I am kind of optimistic.
I mean, he's one of the more athletic tight ends
in the league. He has a seventy three, seven hundred
and eighty yard season on the record, and that was
(36:04):
just two years ago in twenty twenty one. Like, I
don't know what happened with him last year, why the
Dolphins would franchise him and then completely marginalize him in
their offense. It was kind of a strange development. But
now Gasiki comes to New England and I know, maybe
we get a little too excited about like John new
Smith when he signed with New England a few years ago,
(36:26):
but he is being reunited with his old college coach,
Bill O'Brien. Like Gisicki played for Bill O'Brien at Penn State,
so maybe there's you know, maybe O'Brien can kind of
rekindle the Gisiki magic we saw two years ago.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
When we did our first mock draft of the season,
which is also on the YouTube channel, when we had
Justin Bunan, the tight end room got away from me
and unfortunately, you know, I had to look around and
Gasicki's who I ended up with. Erickson, you're a Patriot guy,
you think that maybe Mike Kisiki can rebound and build
on that season two years ago in this offense, because
(37:04):
certainly this is another offense if you love Darren Waller,
because there's not good pass catchers. Then how do you
not love Mikeasiki because the Patriots don't exactly have Jerry
Rice and uh, you know Tera Owens over there either.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
Well, he is the third ranked tight end in my
F tier Mike Kiseki is so I do. I do
acknowledge him a little bit more than some of the
other F tier tight ends that I have, And it's
for the reasons fits laid.
Speaker 4 (37:28):
Out with Ki.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
He's proven producer, He's done it before, He's been able
to produce at a high level at the tight end position.
Speaker 4 (37:34):
He's athletic, new stop, new home, new opportunity.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
We see this a lot from tight ends and go
to a new team on their second contract and they explode.
You know, they are productive, I should say, so, I
guess with the Kaseki for me, it's okay. Well, how
does his role now shift with Hunter Henry still there?
Because Hunter Henry is also a proven tight end producer
Like two years ago he had Flota with double digit
touchdowns for Mac Jones, we expect this offense to take
a step forward and again going back to tight end production.
Speaker 4 (37:59):
So much much of it is touchdown.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
Driven because none of these guys are getting enough targets
because of the position that they play, they're not playing
enough snaps, they're not running enough routes. So if Kazki
can emerge as the red zone guy, okay, like I
see that path, But if it's still Hunter Henry and
Mike Koseki splitting routes, I mean after week one, we
may not automatically know it's like, oh, hey, they literally
split snaps fifty to fifty between Kaseki and Hunter Henry,
(38:21):
Like this isn't gonna work, Like you gotta cut this guy.
So at the same time, oh, he's in that Aaron
Hernandez role, Like they're moving him into the slot, they're
matching him up against really slow linebackers like what Bill
O'Brien has done before it. Then you can get excited
about a guy like Mike Kaseki, because yeah, I think,
similar to like a Darren Waller, if we look up
and Kaseki leads the Patriots and targets, I don't think
(38:43):
there's a non zero chance that that happened.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
So it's in the range of outcomes, as Derek Brown
likes to say, it's definitely in the range of outcomes.
Let's just end things here with the rookies because obviously,
in terms of the ECR Concaids at twenty four, mayors
at thirty, Laporte is at thirty one. I know, Pat,
you seem to, at least the Twitter verse seems to
think that you have a negative stigma towards Dalton king Kaid.
(39:08):
And I understand rookie tight ends, they don't all show
up like Kyle Pitts. My defense of Dalton Kinkaid is
I don't see him being used the tight end as
nearly as frequently as being used in the slot. I
think he's going to be a huge mitch, huge mismatch,
excuse me, in the slot for Josh Allen and the
Buffalo Bills, and they're going to really push that pass
catching ability that he has and the difficulty that I
(39:30):
think any nickel corner or even a linebacker for that matter,
trying to keep pace with him. Why are you throwing
cold water on the Dalton kin Kate situation so much?
Speaker 2 (39:38):
I mean, I can see him playing some slot snaps.
I don't think he's going to totally displace Khalil Shakir
or you know, or even Deontay Hardy from their slot
roles with the Bills. It's just I mean, he's a
rookie tight end. Like I do think he is the
best rookie tight end in this class. Like I don't
dislike Dalton kin Kid. I think he's a really good player.
(39:59):
That's kind of exciting to see him paired with one
of the better quarterbacks in the league. I'm just pumping
the brakes on a rookie tight end, which I think
is generally kind of the prudent thing to do. But
I just, like, I know, coming out of the draft,
like I was seeing him go in tight end one
range in bast Balls, and I thought that was just
(40:20):
a little excessive.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
Who do you think Ericson out of the rookie tight
ends is going to make an impact in twenty twenty three.
Speaker 3 (40:27):
Of those three guys, I still think it's probably Dalton Kinkaid.
I mean, like the being a first round draft pick
matters like significantly, Like being drafted in the first round
is historically speaking as a tight end, they were just
more likely.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
To Pray moved up to take him too. Let's not
forget they did move up because the past catchers were
flying and wanted to get somebody else because they weren't
thrilled with what they had already in helse.
Speaker 4 (40:46):
Yeah, so they're more likely to produce.
Speaker 3 (40:48):
I know that the argument can be made, Oh, Sam Laporta,
like he has less competition than Dalt Kinkaid does because
it's it's a Mom ros Saint Brown and then nobody
else because Jameson Willian was just suspended for six weeks,
and like, theoretically that makes sense, but James Wills is
going to come back, and Sam Laporta then has to
have all of his production at the beginning of the
year when he's a rookie tight end. When we see
(41:08):
not just rookie tight ends, but rookie receivers tend to
have bigger roles as the season continues and progresses.
Speaker 4 (41:14):
So I just think if.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
These particular players fall in your drafts where you feel comfortable,
it's like, are you gonna feel comfortable starting don't k
K Week one?
Speaker 4 (41:23):
Like probably not.
Speaker 3 (41:24):
So it's like really hard to draft him as your
tight end one going into the season because okay, like
how what's his role going to be in this offense?
It's okay to have question marks, And I think if
you're making a bet, the best bet you've had made.
Is betting against rookie tight ends, not betting for them
to hit right away, if anything. Is just something to
keep in mind to buy these guys low when they
(41:44):
don't produce right away, because you know, okay, we see
rookies have bigger roles as the season progresses. Everyone's annoyed
at doult Kink because he's splitting snaps with Dawson Knox.
He still exists, He's still on the team, like that
still matters. So it's just things that people are tend
to be overlooking. And you know, I'd rather just you know,
take my guy chicken konquo a couple of rounds later.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
These are my favorite shows because I love when all
of us together here sit in a room and talk
about the positions just singularly and go through these names,
because I think it's the most useful for us as
we continue to shape our analysis of what the twenty
twenty three draft should look like, and also for all
the listeners and the watchers on YouTube. Also, I think
these are always our best shows. And I'm so glad
(42:27):
we got to sit here and do this one too.
If you missed it, this is a series of them
so we've already done the running backs and the wide receivers.
They're all up there, so go check them out. Please
over on our YouTube channel. Go subscribe there, click the
bell for notifications. And again, if you want us to
continue to look at the ranks yourself, you can always
do that at fantasypros dot Com slash Rankings. And we
want you to use these rankings and all this knowledge
to go win some money playing fantasy football, maybe even
(42:48):
a million dollars, and you could do that at Fantasypros
dot Com Slash Championship. That's where you want to go,
so you can get involved in the Fantasy Pros f
FPC Championship, a million dollar first prize, six million dollar
prize pool, and free Fantasy Pros and Betting pro subscriptions
to some of the big winners too. Use that promo
code Fantasy Pros when you sign up to get twenty
five dollars off, and you also get the early Birds
(43:09):
special too. There's still time in June if you sign
up by June first here, which is again you know
by the time this comes out, maybe today's your last day.
And if you draft by June fifteen, you can get
an extra thirty five bucks, so go ahead and do
that as well. Great show, gentlemen, it was great to
sit and have these big roundtable discussions on the positions.
I think we'll all be better off for it when
we get into August and September for the big drafts.
(43:31):
That'll do it for us, But the story of the
game goes on for fits and ericson. I'm Joey P.
We'll see you next time. Kids. Thanks for listening to
the Fantasy Pros Football Podcast. Follow us on Twitter and
Instagram at Fantasy Pros, and subscribe to our YouTube channel
at YouTube dot com slash Fantasy Pros sh
Welcome in everybody to Fantasy Pros. This is the Fantasy
Football Podcast. It is me Joey P Joe Pisapia, and
today we're gonna take a deep dive on the tight
end rankings, the tears, where the drop offs are, who's
the superlative and who doesn't make the grade. And to
help us do it, of course, is Pat Fitzmorris, the
host of our Dynasty Podcast. If you haven't already subscribed
to that, you should wherever you get your podcast, because
(00:23):
it's a fantastic show him and Scott Bogman breaking down
all the Dynasty characters that you need. And in twenty
twenty three redraft, you have to know these guys because
it is definitely a changeover season. So make sure you're
listening to the Dynasty pod there and you might as
well also check out Pat's incredible work as well over
on Fantasypros dot Com. He's got a great series going
breaking down all of the Dynasty players and he I
(00:43):
think he just dropped the tight end piece, Pat If
I'm correct? Am I correct in saying.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
This start up strategy at various positions, Joe, including tight acd.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Yes sounds sexy. I love it. Speaking of sexy, there's
Andrew Erickson over there hanging out, ready to go, ready
to rock, bringing the big pod energy as he always does.
And I encourage everybody who's listening to the pod to
also watch us over on the YouTube channel so you
can see all of the rankings and tiers in living color,
because that's how we're doing it today here on the
YouTube channel, so you can see where all the names
(01:13):
are in terms of the ECR. And we're going to
be comparing the boys' rankings to the ECR and to
each other to see where all the variance is. So again,
make sure you subscribe to Fantasy Pro's YouTube channel and
cut that little belt that goes ding, so you know
every time a piece of content drops here on our channel.
And let's just jump head first here because obviously Travis
Kelcey is the one in ECR, he's the one in
(01:34):
our hearts all that good stuff. But at the same time, gentlemen,
it's kind of interesting that in the ECR you have
Travis Kelcey as the one in the Superlative tier along
with Mark Andrews and t J. Hawkinson and no knock
on those two guys. They're terrific, But Kelsey's really gonna
standalone tier of its own. To me, he is the
only S tier tight end fits. Do you agree with
(01:55):
that notion too, that you know there's there's still a
you can call those guys all the time of the position,
but there's one guy who is really at the very
top of this mountain.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
I agree, Joe. I mean, he has finished as the
tight end one in PPR scoring in six of the
last seven seasons, got clipped by Mark Andrews in twenty
twenty one, but Kelsey has strung together seven straight one
thousand yard seasons. He's averaged eight point four touchdowns a
year over that span. He's gonna be thirty one in October.
(02:26):
But he's been pretty indestructible basically. I mean, he missed
a game in twenty twenty due to COVID nineteen, but
has not missed a game due to injury over the
last nine years. So it's hard to make a case
that anyone really belongs on his strata ericson.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Just to give a little bit of definition to how
much better Travis Kelcey is and everybody else, not just
a great SNL performance, which it was, he was tremendous
that night. But also if you look at the relative
position value statistic, which is compares you know, the Fantasy
League average tie end and everybody else in their peers,
he was eighty nine percent better and more productive than
(03:06):
the Fantasy League average tight end last year. That's stunning.
So basically, took the top twelve guys and compared to
each other, Travis Kelcey was that much of an advantage.
So clearly he should be the guy at the top.
And I don't want people thinking going into draft seas
and erics and that the other guys are good consolation
prizes because it really is not the same. It's apples
and oranges, right.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Yeah, I mean you're better off comparing Travis kelce to
the top players at wide receiver and running back than
you are comparing him to other tight ends. It's like
Travis kelce tight end and then a tier off and
then every other tight end because that's the type of
production he's been putting up.
Speaker 4 (03:39):
Because that's the question mark you're asking me.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
It's like, am I going to draft Travis Kelcey fifth overall,
sixth overall because that's kind of where we see his
ADP kind of settle in some of these one quarterback leagues,
and then Titan Premium. I mean you can take him first,
it's like second overall because of the way that that
scoring system is set up. So, yeah, he's entering his
age thirty four season, but so far as fits laid out, like,
there really hasn't been any drop off in his production. Now,
(04:04):
the question is, okay, Ken Kelcey, like you just mentioned
off his scoring relative to the field of tight end, well,
is that repeatable? Is he going to be able to
be so much more dominant than every other tight end?
Let's say he drops off a little bit and the
field catches up. Okay, maybe this wasn't the year to
draft Kelsey in the middle of round one because Mark
Andrews or TG Hawkinson end up being better values and
(04:24):
rounds three and four. But at the end of the day,
which Titan's gonna score the most points, it's probably gonna
Travis Kelsey.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Yeah, I would agree with that, and I still stand
by the fact that if I'm gonna draft Kelsey, I'd
rather do it with a top six pick then wait
and do it later on because I feel like all
the roster construction, I just like so much better when
I just if you're gonna go for Kelsey, just do
it as opposed to, you know, kind of waiting and
letting it slip down the trough a little bit. Now obviously,
you know, as we discussed before, Andrews Hawkinson also very good.
(04:52):
George Kittle is in that a tier that next tier
for you fit, so he is still kind of in
that grouping. But what's so fascinating here in your eighty
in your tier here Ericson is actually Kyle Pitts. And
I want to talk about Kyle Pits because this is
a player Andrew we all loved last year, me included.
I tried to warn everybody about Marcus Mariota. Everybody tried,
(05:13):
you know, really hard, and was successful ignoring me. He did,
in fact, ruin Kyle Pitts unfortunately. And now I'm not
saying Desmond Ritter is the savior of Kyle Pitts. But
when you look at this lineup year over year that
they've constructed, here you have Drake London, you have Kyle Pits,
you have Bjean Robinson. I think there's reason to be
more optimistic this year, and it seems like you are
(05:33):
of the same where you're looking for that Kyle Pitts
bounce back, right.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Andrew, I think so, I'm trying to be optimistic and
hopeful because I think that the talent is there for
Kyle Pitts, and it's really about the situation. And when
I look back at my hits and misses about players,
it's always because I overinvested in the situation. I was like,
I'm not drafting X player because his situation is bad.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
Or it's off.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
And I know exactly how this offense is going to
play out, like we all think we know what the
Falcons is going to be. We know all they're going
to run the ball a million times and there's not
getting enough volume in the passing game for anybody to
catch any balls week in and week out. But things change,
Guys get hurt, think surprised. Doesn't Rider could be better
than we think. He could be worse than we think.
So there's a lot of question marks and then asking,
(06:14):
okay is baked into the ADP. Kyle Pitts is less
expensive than he was last year, and what's really changed
He has design Rider instead of Marcus Mariota. I don't
think ridders like this amazing quarterback whatsoever. But I think
he's better than Marcus Mariota is at least delivering the
ball downfield. So for those reasons, Look, if Pitts hits,
I think that's something that can actually give you an
(06:35):
advantage on your fantasy team versus if he misses again, Okay,
well you're gonna be stuck with every other person that
has a bad tight end. Like that's kind of the
downfall with him. So yes, I am trying to be
a little bit more optimistic about Kyle Pitts, but at
the same time, I don't feel great about clicking the
button on him, Like I realize the risks with drafting him,
and it's not every drafting like I have to get
(06:56):
Kyle Pits in this draft. No, Like it really depends
on my roster construction. It depends on what other Titans
are available. But I don't want to just not have
any pal Pits this year because I think that's just
kind of going into blind and ignoring talent.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Well, he is the fifth tight end over fantasypros dot Com,
and again you can check out all the rankings there
fantasypros dot Com slash rankings to see where all of
these are lying, and he is the fifth tight end
not only in Ericson's rankings but also in yours. Pat However,
in yours you have him down a tier, which I
think makes sense. So you still have Andrews, Hawkins and
Kittle kind of as that a tier, and then Pitts
(07:31):
begins your B tier. And I feel like that's very
fair assessment in terms of your evaluation of Pits based
off the big disappointment of last year. So what are
your expectations in twenty twenty three and do you feel
the same way Erickson does, which is more about not
as much targeting Pits is looking for the value of
Pits and drafts.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
It is fair, Joe, but I actually want to do
over on that, Like, if I could do it again,
I would put Pits in the A level. I think,
like I'm with Ericson. I know that problems. You know,
I don't know how much better than Marcus Mariota Desmond
Ritter is going to be. But here we have a
guy who, like his his ability to draw targets is
(08:11):
pretty impressive, Like he's done a lot of that. And
let's not forget that he was the first rookie receiver
since Mike Ditka sixty years earlier to have a thousand
yard rookie season, and he did it in a season
in which that he began when he was twenty years old.
So this guy is just a freakish talent. Last year,
like his average depth of target, because Pitts is so
(08:34):
much like a wide receiver, it was over thirteen yards.
It was like thirteen point eight yards, which you know,
not really optimal when Marcus Mariota is the quarterback, and
which was why we were seeing so many comical overthrows, underthrows,
you know, wide throws, so basically.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Well to that point, Pat, you know, only because you're
you're bringing up the Mariota point too. The one thing
I think if you watch Ritter in Cincinnati, and I
know you and I both did a fair amount the
last few years before he got to the NFL, is
I felt that he was he was pretty accurate in
terms of, you know, getting rid of the football in
the right spot and managing that offense pretty well. And
I think he's a very bright kid too, So I
(09:12):
think he's kind of he's going to be a little
bit more aware of, you know, certain situations he wants
to avoid and when he wants to be aggressive and
not be aggressive. And I think that could be an
improvement year over year from what Mariota was, because Mariota
just seemed like he had no feel for it whatsoever.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Right, And to that point, Joe like, if Desmond Ritter
can't do it, they also have Taylor Heineke behind him,
and Heinike is never going to be an above average
starting NFL quarterback, but he was at least like able
to facilitate his pass catchers in Washington and make those
guys fantasy viable. So you know, he's kind of the
(09:49):
safety nets for Kyle Pitts. So I am optimistic, And
I know a lot of fantasy managers get mad when
we recommend Kyle Pitts and then Kyle Pitts goes out
and lays an egg like he did last year. And
you know a lot of venom on Twitter over that
sort of thing. But man, it sounds like ericson and
I and you, Joe are right back here recommending Kyle Pitts. Again.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
I'm back here recommending him. But I was really concerned
last year. And Erickson's smirking because he knows we've gotten
many fights last year about this and just you know,
when you've seen enough Marcus Mariota, you know, and and
I understand Ritter is not Patrick Mahomes. I'm well aware
of this, but I do think there's room for improvement there,
just in the basic level of quarterback play and understanding
(10:33):
when to throw the football in certain places and where
it should be more importantly, but let's continue on with
some other names here, because you continue on to the
A group on Fantasy pro zcr. After Pitts is Dallas Goddard,
very steady, and then Darren Waller, another buy back kind
of guy. Now, Pat, he is number seven right now
you've got Darren Waller, you know, kind of in that
(10:55):
same range at seven, you've got him in the B tier.
Now Andrew is even more Darren Waller, debro forget it.
We did a show yesterday if you missed it with
Jake Seely where he basically said Darren Waller's going to
finish as the tight end two overall. So go ahead
and go drop your comments on that video because I
can't wait to read those. But let's talk about Darren Waller, Pat,
because this is another dude that we've absolutely seen the
(11:17):
ceiling and it is incredible. You can make the case,
as Derek did on yesterday's show, about the Giants really
need somebody else to emerge in this group of past
catchers because the wide receivers are lacking. But it's the
injury bug of Darren Waller the last two years that's
really destroyed his value. So how do you feel about
his value coming into twenty twenty three.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
I don't like it at all, Joe. I'm probably not
going to have Darren Waller in any league. I don't
think he should be a top five guy. I just
think there's too much risk here. And I think maybe
people are looking at that wide receiver group and maybe
sort of wish casting a little bit with Darren Waller
because they see all.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
These Ironically, wish casting was also the buzzword yesterday. So
you and Derek Brown now have to put a dollar
in the jar for the wish cast and you guys
are we looked it up online. It costs like seventeen
hundred dollars to buy the URL, so you know, we
have to put all that money aside, so we the
purchase at the end of the season.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
So, I mean, part of it is that the Giants
have this collection of Liliputians playing wide receiver, and Waller
is this gigantic target. So of course, you know everyone
thinks every time Daniel Jones throws a pass in the
green zonner of the red zone, it's going to Darren Waller,
and maybe he will get an inordinate number of those targets.
(12:31):
But man, I mean those back to back thousand yard
seasons he had in twenty nineteen and twenty twenty, they
are starting to look really small in the rear view mirror.
Those were a long time ago. He's missed fourteen games
the last two years. He's going to be thirty one
in September. I think I said Travis Kelsey was going
to be thirty one. I was thinking of Waller when
I said that. And here's the like, I'm not really
(12:51):
a big schedule guy. That doesn't really affect how I draft,
but Waller is a really brutal schedule this year. I
mean he the teams in the NFC East Washington fourth
fewest Fantasy points per game two opposing tight ends, Dallas
third fewest, Philadelphia thirteenth fewest, and then some of their
(13:12):
non divisional opponents, The Saints first against tight ends Buffalo
second against tight ends. Packers and forty nine ers both
top ten in fewest points allowed to tight end. So
it's kind of a tough schedule for a guy who
was down to forty three point one yards per game
last year, pretty much the lowest since his breakout season
in Oakland. So I'm just like, I'm not in on
(13:32):
Waller at all this year.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Well, the guy who is in is Andrew Erickson, because
you've got him at tight end three. So you and
Debro must have been hanging out at the bar late
last night. So let's talk about this because Pat brings
a lot of good data here, including we always know
going into every season, you know what looks like tough
schedules can change dramatically with you know, personnel changes or
potentially even injuries. But it's a really strong case against
(13:56):
Darren Waller. So let me hear the case for Darren
Waller for people who want to draft him because you
like him as the third tight end. That's pretty spectacular
considering right now ECRs got him closer to ten, he's
seventh overall.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Well, I think part of it is I like the
price of Darren Waller. I like that he's cheaper than
I don't need to draft him as the title. He's
not going to be the tight end three when you
draft him. So what I'm telling people that look at
my rankings is, no, you don't have the draft Anders,
you don't have to draft Hockins, and you don't have
to draft Kittle in round four, round five. Just wait
till round nine, round eight when Darren Waller goes off
(14:29):
the board, because I'm looking for a tight end that
can lead his team in targets, like there's only a
handful of these guys that even exist. And yes, the
concerns are can Darren Waller stay healthy? Don't know, but
if you draft any tight end, any mid round tight end,
and they get hurt, that's going to kill your roster regardless.
So now at least the risk is mitigated a little
bit because Waller is cheaper than those other players. And
(14:51):
I think that I know that it's been a while
since he's been able to put up the production, but
he's done it before. Like there are a bunch of
titands going ahead and that have never been tight ones
or been.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Car so now you're expecting to do with Daniel Jones
was not exactly a prolific throw of the football either, I.
Speaker 4 (15:08):
Mean, who's he been throwing the ball to? Like I can.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
I can spend the argument in two different WAYSS have
to answer your question.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
You know what a little a Putian is, don't you?
Speaker 2 (15:15):
No?
Speaker 4 (15:16):
Be honest, I do not know.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
I love it. It's short people like me. That's why
I know what it is. But continue on.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
I just think I like buying into Waller's upside. I'm
not guys concerned about his downside with the injuries. I
think that they're going to use him in a way
that's good for fantasy, like using him in the red zone,
using him his score fantasy points.
Speaker 4 (15:34):
I'm not really worried about the schedule.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Like players get hurt all the time in terms of
the defense, so I'm not overly concerned about Waller. I'm
not going to not draft him because of his tough
schedule against tight ends, which changes dramatically year over year.
And it just goes back to like he can be
the number one target on his team, Like there's not
many tight ends that fall into that category, and that's
what kind of separates him. He's not one of these
tight ends where a lot of the Titans on this list,
(15:57):
like Dallas Goddard. Okay, Dallas Godder needs an injury to
really unlock his ceiling, like I think we can all
agree on that.
Speaker 4 (16:03):
Darren Waller doesn't. Like he doesn't need well.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
I think I feious to get hurt for him to
have a higher ceiling or unlock that ceiling, whereas Dallas Goddard,
even George Kittle, Like George Kittle does not put up
high end numbers when Ayuk is healthy, when McCaffrey's out there,
when Deebo Samuel's out there, Like if you look at
all the touchdowns he scored last year, Deebo wasn't playing
in half those games. But Waller doesn't have to deal
(16:26):
with that. And I think considering the price too, that's
why I like him at his value.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Will you make a really good case I think for
the upside pick there, so you're saying, you know, that's
where the ceiling is. And again, will we rank. We're
trying to show people what we think the perceived value
could be in the return at the end of the year,
not so much what the consensus is. That's what the
consensus is for, and that's why you follow people individually.
Here's what's interesting too. If you're looking at the Fantasy
Pros Championship at FFPC, his ADP right now he is
(16:52):
going basically fifty ninth player overall. So that's an interesting
value over on there, and if you want to get
involved in that. By the way, everybody who's listening and
watching Fantasypros dot Com slash Championship is sign up, use
that promo code Fantasy Pros. You get twenty five bucks
off your entry, so go do that. And there's also
the extra discount. If you sign up by June first
(17:12):
and complete a draft by June fifteenth, you get a
thirty five dollars extra early bird credit. So that's pretty awesome.
And I remember the main prize there a million dollars,
a million dollars for playing fantasy football. We're also giving
away Fantasy Pros a Betting Pro subscription. So take advantage
of early ADP and take advantage of going in and
getting involved in our Fantasy Pro Championship at FFPC. If again,
that's a Fantasypros dot Com slash Championship. Let's talk about
(17:35):
another tight end here. Pat Fryarmouth one of my favorite
guys fits. He is also in your B tier as
we continue to look. But Andrew, you don't seem to
love Pat Frymoth. You've got him all the way in
the C tier. So is it just a matter of
the role in the Steelers offense? Like why the no
love for Pat Fryarmouth.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
I think that he's just really touchdown dependent and it
depends on how many touchdimes I think Kenny pick is
gonna throw. I don't see Kenny Pickett going out tossing
thirty five touchdowns. So if Pat Friarmouth is now not
seeing as much touchdown voluim as he needs, he's competing
for targets with Deontay Johnson, with George Pickens, who I
like a lot. Now you Harris catching passes outside in
the backfield. I guess for me, it's just like, where
(18:15):
is this amazing upside for a guy like Pat Firemouth?
And he kind of goes in that range of the
middle of tight end where I think Firemuth is better
than a lot of other tight ends from a real
life perspective. But am I actually gaining any edge whatsoever
drafting him at tight end nine tight end ten when
he outscores Mike Giseki by fifty points and by one
(18:36):
point per game, Like, what does that do for me
when I could have drafted a running back, a receiver
with breakout potential where he's going instead of draft and
then waiting to draft the tight end later. I just
don't see the gap between his production being so much
largely better than guys going later, which is why I'm
just like I could, I could pass on Firemuth where
he's going.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
All right, Pat, you're obviously higher on Fiarmouth. I assume
it's more than just the name brand value for you,
but also you know, you got to support guys named Pat.
I want to understand from your perspective too, Andrews saying,
you know, I expect Kenny Pickett to throw thirty five touchdowns,
that's fair, But do we expect him to look for
Pat Froermuth in the red zone? And I think the
answer is a big yes. So how do you rank
(19:16):
Pat Fryermuth or you know, in your terms of value
as opposed to the board that's got him as tight
end nine. Where do you see him ending up at
the end of the year.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Yeah, I mean, I'd like to think that he will
be a frequently sought after end zone target for Kenny
Pickett Joe. But I mean to kind of push back
on something Ericson just said, like, I don't know if
he's that touchdown dependant anymore. He very much was his
first year when he had under five hundred yards but
had seven touchdowns. Last year only two touchdowns, but he
(19:44):
was still somewhat fantasy viable because he had seventy sorry
sixty three catches for seven hundred and thirty two yards,
So like he was still a playable tight end even
though he wasn't scoring touchdowns. And we saw the Pittsburgh
offense become more efficient late in the year. You know,
we know George Pickens doesn't really draw targets at a
(20:04):
high rate, so I'm optimistic that we're still going to
see plenty of targets for Friarmuth. And I mean, I
just think he's a really good value relative to Darren Waller.
I don't necessarily disagree with what Ericson is saying about
maybe waiting and getting a just taking Mike Kasicki six
or seven rounds later, and you know, kind of dumpster
(20:25):
diving at tight end that way. But I don't know,
I mean, I do think Friarmuth is a reasonable option
if you're gonna not shop on the top the Gucci
level of tight ends Joe. But if you're going to
go to you know, Target and get your tight ends,
I think Friarmuth is a reasonable option there.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
You can find some good durable products at the Target.
I think Evan Ingram's interesting one too, because he is
ranked eighth right above friar Muth on the ECR rankings,
So these are guys still in the theoretical a tier
over on Fantasy pros. Evan Ingram coming off a surprisingly
good season, but I think pat the big problem now
is the addition of Calvin Ridley. The question of how
(21:05):
these targets get dispersed now and will the offense continue
to utilize the tight end as much as it did now.
They did bring him back, they franchised him, so now
he's back for one more year. So what are your
thoughts on Evan Ingram being able to repeat the success
of last year, because it seems like from the ECER
that's almost what the quote unquote experts are expecting.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yeah, it was nice that he did. He'd been such
a tease for so long. Joe. He had that great
rookie season with the Giants and then just we kept
expecting more and more from him in every season it
was injuries or just bad cases of the drops, but
finally everything kind of clicked and he and Trevor Lawrence
really got on the same page last year. Was nice
to see. So he finishes with seventy three catches seven
(21:46):
hundred and sixty six yards, only four touchdowns, but still
quite valuable, and then had a big game in the
playoffs seven catches ninety three in a touchdown in that
epic come from behind win against the Chargers. So yes,
I think we have to expect a little drop in
the target count with Calvin Ridley coming aboard. But I
(22:07):
mean I still think Evan Ingram is a solid low
end tight end one option, you know, and hopefully just
he was so good last year, I find it hard
to think that he would slip back to the disappointing
level he was at in those later years with the Giant.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
He still slides into your B tier. But Ericson, You've
got Evan Ingram in your C tier, actually right after
Pat Freimu, so you got the same guys right in there.
But a little bit lower down on the trough. So
talk to me about your thoughts on Evan Ingram or
maybe your concerns considering your ranks.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
I yeah, I think with Evan Ingram it's everyone is
just looking at last year's like, oh, it finally worked out,
like let's buy in, and he's just gonna disappoint us all.
I think Evan Ingram is probably one of the bigger,
stronger fades I'm going to have at tight end this season,
looking at Jacksonville's offense adding in Calvin Ridley. Look, part
of the reason why Evan Ingram was good last year
(23:01):
was because he didn't get hurt. Like this guy's been
banged up every single season of his career. He finally
stays healthy and now he's back in the tight end
top ten, Like can he do it again? Joe? When
you introduced Evan Ingram as the player of debate here,
you talked about his surprising finish last year because we
knew he was talented, But the guy.
Speaker 4 (23:19):
Can never stay healthy.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
And I brought this up on multiple shows talking about
Jacksonville specifically, they were the healthiest team last year. That
doesn't happen year over year. It's very very difficult to replicate.
So I don't want to say that I'm the magical
oracle projecting that Jacksonville Jaguars are going to be destroyed
by injuries, but just based on the math, like they're
probably gonna experience more injuries than they had last year,
(23:40):
and who's a guy that is most likely to kind
of fall victim to that. It would probably be a
guy like Evan Ingram who has a history of injuries
and stayed healthy all of last season. He's already skipping
OTA's like. It just has a lot of signs of
like yeah, like there's a lot of like peripheral here
with Evan Ingram where it's like, m I get why
he's ranked where he's ranked because tight end is so
bad and you kind of have to just put him
(24:00):
up there because what he did last year. But it
goes back to making bets. Low end tight end ones
on draft day are bad bets because even if they
outscore tight end fifteen through twenty four, it's not by much,
but you still had to invest a top ten draft
pick in them. So for those reasons, like almost emman,
Ingram falls into a late round territory, I'm not touching
(24:21):
him like it does not happening.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
I understand that. I also think there's something to be
said for the evolution of a quarterback and Trevor Lawrence
as a young quarterback, as he continues to grow and mature,
we'll probably look less for the tight end and more
for the wide receiver targets, especially if you are looking
at adding a piece like Calvin Ridley. And I'm not
trying to annoying Calvin Ridley as Calvin Johnson or anything
like that, but he is a very useful potential piece
(24:44):
and he got so much out of Christian Kirkins A
Jones last year. The fact that they're kind of bringing
this whole band back together, and we'll see whatever Travis
at ends up doing in this offense as well. If
he catches more passes, we shall see. Continuing on, though,
the last guy in this top ten on Fantasy Pros
again in the eight tier to close it out is
David and Joku, who we can all discuss at nauseum.
(25:05):
We've all been waiting for David. Joko's just another wait,
I think basically for all of us to see, Okay,
what will he do now with this quarterback? And will
Deshaun Watson be that guy. For him, I still say
it's Elijah Moore, so I'm not gonna be putting too
much stock in him. The next grouping is really interesting though,
because now we're into the basically be tier on Fantasy Pros,
which again, now we start to really dive deep into
(25:26):
the guy's ranks and all the variants. We have Dalton
Schultz at eleven based off of what he did with
the Cowboys. That's a tough sell because he ain't with
the Cowboys. It's another team in Texas, Jiggy and Konkuo,
another guy who flashed last year some moments put a
lot of unknowns about what that Tennessee Titans offense is
going to be. Cole Kmet at the thirteenth Titan overall,
(25:47):
certainly another guy flashed some moments, a former Notre Dame guy,
Greg Dulcic moments, Tyler Higbee again another tough sell. I
think we've been down that role before, and then Gerald Everett.
That rounds out the top six team.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Now.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
I think when we look at your ranks and the
differences between a lot of these guys, it's fascinating to
me because I would say when you're looking at this group,
cole Comett is that one that really stands out to
me if this offense is going to take another step forward.
I've always been a fan of cole Comett. I've always
hoped that they would evolve the passing game a little
bit more. Ericson, you've got cole Comette, let me let
(26:21):
me kind of reset for everybody. There is no D
tier for Ericson. He goes from the guys he likes
of the C tier, it's D tier, and then everybody's
in the F. But cole Comett is the first guy
in your F tier. So why is he the first
guy there? Do you have the most hope for him
to be able to crack the ceiling of this tight
end one group?
Speaker 3 (26:39):
No, because he was the last player in my Seatier,
and then I was looking at him versus some of
the other players in my seat here and I was like, no,
I think that he should be in a tier below.
Speaker 4 (26:46):
So that's why he defaulted to that.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
But you kept Dalton Schultz in your Seatier, Why?
Speaker 3 (26:50):
Because Dalton Schultz can lead the Texans and targets and
co Comette is not going to lead the Bears and targets, Like.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
It's well, like John Metchi's gonna lead the Texans and targets.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
He's never gotten a single target in the NFL. Joe,
that's a really bolt.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Yeah, but he got a crap ton of him in Alabama. Baby,
while guy knows what to do with them.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
Tight end one season with the Dallas Cowboys' sport something
where Cole Comett.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
But he's not taking the Dallas Cowboys with him.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
Yeah, but I'm just saying, but Cole Comett has more
competition with the Bears. Like, like, the reason I like
co Comett last year is because they had nobody else
on offense. But now they do.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
They have played Devil's advocate. Does he have more a
competition quote unquote or does he finally have at least
you know, DJ Moore and Darnol Moody to viable wide
receivers where all of a sudden Cole Comett might actually
be able to operate and do.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
His job for one now because Titans need targeting. That's like,
that's the most important thing for me. I'm not going
to go out here and project, oh well, now his
efficiency is going to be through the roof, because Titan
efficiency is tied to athleticism and touchdowns. Co Comett is
a okay athlete, Like he's not some superstar, and we
saw him last year have a spike weeks because of
(28:01):
touchdowns and projecting.
Speaker 4 (28:03):
Oh well, I know exactly.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
Mkokoman's gonna have all these touchdowns spikes with Justin Fields
throwing the ball forty times per game, which probably still
won't happen. Like that's a hard bet to make. So yeah,
he's there because he's had some proven production. But like
my F tier, I really find it hard to parse
between guys at tight end fifteen to tight end thirty.
And that's why once you get to this middle range, wait, wait,
(28:25):
wait longer, Like I don't want to draft Tyler Higbee
as the tight end sixteen because I could just draft
a guy that's like gonna score one point less per
game as tight end twenty four. I just find it
really to be hardly bullish on most of these players.
And the only guys I'm really bullish on I moved
up into my sea tier like Chicka Konquo, Like I
like him as a late round tight end, which means
he will inevitably bust because he's the one light round ten,
(28:46):
and I actually like, but that's who I'm gonna push
my chips in on Chicka Conco like that's light round
ten and I won.
Speaker 4 (28:52):
I don't want these other guys.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Yes, the prolific throwing offense, that is the ten, but
he's athletics.
Speaker 4 (28:57):
That's going to fixed up for it. He's athletic.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
I'm athletic too. Yet I'm here sitting here every day
and still just standing still talking into a camera all
the time. So it doesn't always get utilized. I'm just saying,
we get utilized once a year when we have our
fancy pros outing and we play sports. That's it. That's
when it gets utilized. Fits you are a believer. It
looks like in Schultz and Comet because you got them
both in your Seatier. So I want to talk about
these two guys. So do you see what Ericson sees.
(29:20):
Obviously you must have Schultz still kind of in that
viable range. Do you believe he has the opportunity to
lead the Texans and targets as Erickson was saying.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
I guess so yeah, I mean I don't want to
see that wasn't.
Speaker 4 (29:32):
Very I'm on here and be the bullish on Dalton Schultz.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Nobody if you're listening for ringing Dalton Schultz endorsement, you
ever really come to the right wrong tree? Joe, Right, Yeah,
But like I see the possibility that he could be,
uh the target leader there, and it's just what is
the quality of the targets going to look like coming
from CJ. Stroud and you know, in a what might
(29:57):
be kind of a dysfunctional offense this year. So I'm
a little worried about it. Plus I've always thought Dalton
Schultz was kind of just a guy, and you know,
just the guy worked really well in Dallas when he
was the guy at tight end for them in a
couple of years. But I just yeah, I mean, the
target outlook looks much better for him than it does
(30:17):
for Cole Kmett. But if these guys were in similar situations,
I'd have cant Comet ranked much higher. I mean, Comet
did lead the Bears in targets, catches, receiving yards and
touchdown catches last year, but then again, they were if
they threw three wide outs on the field, it was
like who.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
Was second in that category?
Speaker 1 (30:41):
But to Pat's point, they didn't have the talent that
they wanted to throw out there right one, and they
had to, and they'd have talent to move then. You know,
I think, you know, whenever you bring in the talent,
and Dj Moore is a talented guy. I think when
you bring in a legitimate wide receiver to an offense
that's grossly lacking one, just grossly lacking talent in that area,
and then Darna Moodey flies into probably what he should be,
which is a number two, then you can really run
(31:03):
a different offense. And they have enough running backs to
do that as well, and they have Justin Fields who
really kind of found his confidence last year. Now it's
just a matter of putting the confidence in him to
throw the football. And I think it's easier to develop
confidence when you have the talent on the field to
throw the football too. I don't think we've seen the
best that I can met yet, so I'm still I'm
gonna still ride that horse.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Here.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
You've got Juwan Johnson in this grouping two, which obviously
I'm not gonna talk about where Erickson has him because
it's ridiculous. He's actually seventeen, so he's at the beginning
of this next year. The seat here as it were
on the Fantasy pros ECR. So do you see the
opportunity for Juwan Johnson pat in twenty twenty three? I do.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
I mean, he finished tight end eleven and half point
PPR scoring last season with forty two catches five hundred
and eight yard seven touchdowns. Saints didn't take anyone from
this deep tight end rookie class, and then they traded
away Adam Troutman to Denver. They did sign Foster Moreau,
who's recovering from cancer. I guess he's expected to be
(31:59):
good to go for the regular season, but you know,
I don't know Foster Moreau is going to be that
much of a threat to Juan Johnson's role here. And
like I know, Juwan Johnson didn't have heavy draft capital
coming into the NFL, But like, the guy's just good,
Like he's he's a good pass catcher. He gets an
upgraded quarterback with Derek Carr, and you know, I'm cautiously optimistic,
(32:23):
and he's still pretty cheap. People just haven't really bought
into Juwan Johnson yet, but maybe they should.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
Yeah. I had a couple of shares I picked up
off the waiver wire last year and pleasantly surprised use
him in DFS too. You know, Eric said, you've got
him far down the trough. Obviously he's part of the
f troop, as I'll just call him for your group.
So in your opinion, do you see any upside at
all when it comes to Juwan Johnson that Pat's talking about?
Speaker 4 (32:44):
Yeah, I see the upside.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
I mean you can make the upside case for a
lot of these guys when things break their way, because
when you're going late round tight end, that's what has
to happen or else they get dropped. So Juwan Johnson,
if he catches a bunch of touchdowns like he did
last year, it's just a matter of Okay, is he
gonna have a touchdown regression?
Speaker 2 (33:00):
Like?
Speaker 3 (33:00):
How is he going to fit in the target pecking order?
Is Michael Thomas going to play? Who's Derek Carr's favorite
target going to be Foster Moreau?
Speaker 4 (33:07):
Is there?
Speaker 3 (33:07):
Maybe Foster Morow isn't necessarily taking away targets, but he's
take away snaps. Like I was much higher on Jawan
Johnson before they signed Foster morew I'll admit that, like
I thought Juwan Johnson was, he was in my top fifteen.
I was like, here we go, like wheels up. But
then they didn't draft one. And then they signed Foster Moreau.
And remember Moreau spent his entire career in Las Vegas
(33:28):
slash Oakland with Derek Carr. Like that matters, clearly, Derek
Carr has a chemistry already built in with Foster Moreau,
who was pretty hit or miss as a replacement when
Darren Waller missed time. But we see this all the
time from tight ends where their first stop, their first
team that they get drafted. Famously, Delaney Walker with the
forty nine Ers did pretty much nothing, went to the Titans,
became a fantasy star. Not saying Foss Morow is going
(33:50):
to do that, but there's an opportunity there for him,
potentially in New Orleans to do that. So that's the
only reason I'm really hesitant on Juwan Johnson. But I
do see the path theop side where he is in
an athletic tight end, former wide receiver, big body, So yeah,
I'm not oppost to drafting him as a late round option.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
I would say to that though, that uh Foster morrole
when when Waller was hurt, it wasn't hit or miss
it was pretty much miss or miss, Like he didn't
really do anything when Waller was you know, like there
was are you just.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
Talking about last year especially or like, I mean last
year was bad, but yeah, I feel like in previous
years he did a little bit more. I mean, he
also had like a really good I mean, he played
a lot of snaps, which again is that because that's
just the role that was asked to be on the offense.
But he has a three down skill set where he
can block, he can run routes, and that potentially could
(34:40):
eat into Jawan Johnson, who again was really reliant on
touchdowns last year.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
So the uh, the other guys in the seatier just
kind of closes out the top thirty. So basically this
is this is the clump I think is the best
way to put it here over the ECR. So Juwan
Johnson at seventeen, the Dawson Knocks at eighteen, Mike is
Sicki at nineteen, then McBride, Ertz, Taysom Hill, Noah Fan.
Then we get the rookies begin We got Dalton Kinkada
(35:05):
twenty four. Later on you'll get Michael Maher at thirty,
and you'll get Sam Laport at thirty one right outside.
Now we'll get to the rookies in the second because
I want to touch on Mike Kaseki for a moment
if I can, because I know Ericson he is in
your f tiar like everybody else, You've got him in
the D tier still fits. So do you see, potentially,
now that Bill O'Brien is back calling plays here for
(35:26):
the New England Patriots, the potential for Mike Kasiki, who
is a pretty good pass catcher, a pretty good route
runner that was just not part of the style of play.
I think of what the Dolphins offense became under Mike McDaniel.
Do you see Kaseki opportunity as one of these guys?
Maybe if you're throwing multiple darts at late tight ends,
Kasiki's won to throw.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
I do. And I just had my first Redraft League
draft and I wound up, you know, it was like
a twenty round draft, and I took Mike Kisiki as
my second tight end, and I am kind of optimistic.
I mean, he's one of the more athletic tight ends
in the league. He has a seventy three, seven hundred
and eighty yard season on the record, and that was
(36:04):
just two years ago in twenty twenty one. Like, I
don't know what happened with him last year, why the
Dolphins would franchise him and then completely marginalize him in
their offense. It was kind of a strange development. But
now Gasiki comes to New England and I know, maybe
we get a little too excited about like John new
Smith when he signed with New England a few years ago,
(36:26):
but he is being reunited with his old college coach,
Bill O'Brien. Like Gisicki played for Bill O'Brien at Penn State,
so maybe there's you know, maybe O'Brien can kind of
rekindle the Gisiki magic we saw two years ago.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
When we did our first mock draft of the season,
which is also on the YouTube channel, when we had
Justin Bunan, the tight end room got away from me
and unfortunately, you know, I had to look around and
Gasicki's who I ended up with. Erickson, you're a Patriot guy,
you think that maybe Mike Kisiki can rebound and build
on that season two years ago in this offense, because
(37:04):
certainly this is another offense if you love Darren Waller,
because there's not good pass catchers. Then how do you
not love Mikeasiki because the Patriots don't exactly have Jerry
Rice and uh, you know Tera Owens over there either.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
Well, he is the third ranked tight end in my
F tier Mike Kiseki is so I do. I do
acknowledge him a little bit more than some of the
other F tier tight ends that I have, And it's
for the reasons fits laid.
Speaker 4 (37:28):
Out with Ki.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
He's proven producer, He's done it before, He's been able
to produce at a high level at the tight end position.
Speaker 4 (37:34):
He's athletic, new stop, new home, new opportunity.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
We see this a lot from tight ends and go
to a new team on their second contract and they explode.
You know, they are productive, I should say, so, I
guess with the Kaseki for me, it's okay. Well, how
does his role now shift with Hunter Henry still there?
Because Hunter Henry is also a proven tight end producer
Like two years ago he had Flota with double digit
touchdowns for Mac Jones, we expect this offense to take
a step forward and again going back to tight end production.
Speaker 4 (37:59):
So much much of it is touchdown.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
Driven because none of these guys are getting enough targets
because of the position that they play, they're not playing
enough snaps, they're not running enough routes. So if Kazki
can emerge as the red zone guy, okay, like I
see that path, But if it's still Hunter Henry and
Mike Koseki splitting routes, I mean after week one, we
may not automatically know it's like, oh, hey, they literally
split snaps fifty to fifty between Kaseki and Hunter Henry,
(38:21):
Like this isn't gonna work, Like you gotta cut this guy.
So at the same time, oh, he's in that Aaron
Hernandez role, Like they're moving him into the slot, they're
matching him up against really slow linebackers like what Bill
O'Brien has done before it. Then you can get excited
about a guy like Mike Kaseki, because yeah, I think,
similar to like a Darren Waller, if we look up
and Kaseki leads the Patriots and targets, I don't think
(38:43):
there's a non zero chance that that happened.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
So it's in the range of outcomes, as Derek Brown
likes to say, it's definitely in the range of outcomes.
Let's just end things here with the rookies because obviously,
in terms of the ECR Concaids at twenty four, mayors
at thirty, Laporte is at thirty one. I know, Pat,
you seem to, at least the Twitter verse seems to
think that you have a negative stigma towards Dalton king Kaid.
(39:08):
And I understand rookie tight ends, they don't all show
up like Kyle Pitts. My defense of Dalton Kinkaid is
I don't see him being used the tight end as
nearly as frequently as being used in the slot. I
think he's going to be a huge mitch, huge mismatch,
excuse me, in the slot for Josh Allen and the
Buffalo Bills, and they're going to really push that pass
catching ability that he has and the difficulty that I
(39:30):
think any nickel corner or even a linebacker for that matter,
trying to keep pace with him. Why are you throwing
cold water on the Dalton kin Kate situation so much?
Speaker 2 (39:38):
I mean, I can see him playing some slot snaps.
I don't think he's going to totally displace Khalil Shakir
or you know, or even Deontay Hardy from their slot
roles with the Bills. It's just I mean, he's a
rookie tight end. Like I do think he is the
best rookie tight end in this class. Like I don't
dislike Dalton kin Kid. I think he's a really good player.
(39:59):
That's kind of exciting to see him paired with one
of the better quarterbacks in the league. I'm just pumping
the brakes on a rookie tight end, which I think
is generally kind of the prudent thing to do. But
I just, like, I know, coming out of the draft,
like I was seeing him go in tight end one
range in bast Balls, and I thought that was just
(40:20):
a little excessive.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
Who do you think Ericson out of the rookie tight
ends is going to make an impact in twenty twenty three.
Speaker 3 (40:27):
Of those three guys, I still think it's probably Dalton Kinkaid.
I mean, like the being a first round draft pick
matters like significantly, Like being drafted in the first round
is historically speaking as a tight end, they were just
more likely.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
To Pray moved up to take him too. Let's not
forget they did move up because the past catchers were
flying and wanted to get somebody else because they weren't
thrilled with what they had already in helse.
Speaker 4 (40:46):
Yeah, so they're more likely to produce.
Speaker 3 (40:48):
I know that the argument can be made, Oh, Sam Laporta,
like he has less competition than Dalt Kinkaid does because
it's it's a Mom ros Saint Brown and then nobody
else because Jameson Willian was just suspended for six weeks,
and like, theoretically that makes sense, but James Wills is
going to come back, and Sam Laporta then has to
have all of his production at the beginning of the
year when he's a rookie tight end. When we see
(41:08):
not just rookie tight ends, but rookie receivers tend to
have bigger roles as the season continues and progresses.
Speaker 4 (41:14):
So I just think if.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
These particular players fall in your drafts where you feel comfortable,
it's like, are you gonna feel comfortable starting don't k
K Week one?
Speaker 4 (41:23):
Like probably not.
Speaker 3 (41:24):
So it's like really hard to draft him as your
tight end one going into the season because okay, like
how what's his role going to be in this offense?
It's okay to have question marks, And I think if
you're making a bet, the best bet you've had made.
Is betting against rookie tight ends, not betting for them
to hit right away, if anything. Is just something to
keep in mind to buy these guys low when they
(41:44):
don't produce right away, because you know, okay, we see
rookies have bigger roles as the season progresses. Everyone's annoyed
at doult Kink because he's splitting snaps with Dawson Knox.
He still exists, He's still on the team, like that
still matters. So it's just things that people are tend
to be overlooking. And you know, I'd rather just you know,
take my guy chicken konquo a couple of rounds later.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
These are my favorite shows because I love when all
of us together here sit in a room and talk
about the positions just singularly and go through these names,
because I think it's the most useful for us as
we continue to shape our analysis of what the twenty
twenty three draft should look like, and also for all
the listeners and the watchers on YouTube. Also, I think
these are always our best shows. And I'm so glad
(42:27):
we got to sit here and do this one too.
If you missed it, this is a series of them
so we've already done the running backs and the wide receivers.
They're all up there, so go check them out. Please
over on our YouTube channel. Go subscribe there, click the
bell for notifications. And again, if you want us to
continue to look at the ranks yourself, you can always
do that at fantasypros dot Com slash Rankings. And we
want you to use these rankings and all this knowledge
to go win some money playing fantasy football, maybe even
(42:48):
a million dollars, and you could do that at Fantasypros
dot Com Slash Championship. That's where you want to go,
so you can get involved in the Fantasy Pros f
FPC Championship, a million dollar first prize, six million dollar
prize pool, and free Fantasy Pros and Betting pro subscriptions
to some of the big winners too. Use that promo
code Fantasy Pros when you sign up to get twenty
five dollars off, and you also get the early Birds
(43:09):
special too. There's still time in June if you sign
up by June first here, which is again you know
by the time this comes out, maybe today's your last day.
And if you draft by June fifteen, you can get
an extra thirty five bucks, so go ahead and do
that as well. Great show, gentlemen, it was great to
sit and have these big roundtable discussions on the positions.
I think we'll all be better off for it when
we get into August and September for the big drafts.
(43:31):
That'll do it for us, But the story of the
game goes on for fits and ericson. I'm Joey P.
We'll see you next time. Kids. Thanks for listening to
the Fantasy Pros Football Podcast. Follow us on Twitter and
Instagram at Fantasy Pros, and subscribe to our YouTube channel
at YouTube dot com slash Fantasy Pros sh
Hosts And Creators
Andrew Erickson
Joe Pisapia
Derek Brown
Thor Nystrom
Ryan Wormeli
Pat Fitzmaurice
Matthew Freedman
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.