January 30, 2025 • 46 mins
The Washington Post’s Dana Milbank examines Republicans' chaotic confirmation hearings. MSNBC’s Alex Wagner details Trump’s immigration shock and awe and her new show, Trumpland with Alex Wagner
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,
where we discussed the top political headlines with some of
today's best minds, and Donald Trump is now the least
popular newly elected president since World War Two. We have
such a great show for you today. The Washington Post
Dana Milbank stops by to talk about the republicans chaotic
(00:23):
confirmation hearings. Then we'll talk to MSNBC's Alex Wagner about
Trump's immigration shogunaw.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
But first the news so Mali yesterday there was a lot,
a lot, a lot of shokunaw. But the thing that
we didn't get to yesterday was that the Trump administration
offered roughly two million federal workers a buyout to resign
and that they would pay their salary forward for seven months.
This did not include a lot of people, for example,
(00:54):
congressional employees, people and like the CBO, things like that,
but it did include a lot of federal employees that
they think they could do without. What are you seeing here?
Speaker 1 (01:03):
I'm going to read a tweet thread from an ABC
reporter who noticed that this email looks suspiciously like a
twenty twenty two email that Elon Musk wrote to Twitter
employees after he bought the company and fired almost all
of them. The memo sent to government employees this evening,
(01:23):
offering them buyouts very closely mirrors and email Musk sent
in twenty twenty two down to the same subject line
of fork in the Road. The twenty twenty two email
tells Twitter employees only exceptional performance will constitute a passing grade.
Compare that to the memo, the federal workforce should be
comprised of the best America has to offer. We insist
(01:46):
on excellence at every level, and another similarity. The same way,
the OPM memo requires employees to only respond resigned to
the email. To seal the deal, Musk as Twitter's employees
to click yes on this link below if they wanted
to stay on a Twitter. Look, this is clearly the
(02:07):
brainchild and I mean brain very loosely of the Office
of Government Efficiency. We don't know if this is legal
right to do this. We don't know if they have
the money for this. I mean, this is all like
cooked up in the middle of the night fever dream thing.
But again, you know, this is the Donald Trump, move
(02:29):
fast and break things presidency, so we'll see what happens.
We did see Tim Kaine come out and say, do
not agree to this. They don't have any standing. Just
ignore them, and we're going to probably see, as you're
telling me from your friends, we're probably going to see
a lot more of government employees just ignoring the stuff
(02:49):
that's coming from on high.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah. A lot of people I were speaking to is
like almost no one qualifies for this. As well. There's
a tweet from Amanda Littman front of the show from
Run for Some that shows a lot of people are like, hell, no,
I'm staying here to make sure things don't go to hell.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
It's funny because it's like, it's not funny now, this
is funny.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
It's fucked up.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
But it's interesting to see that it's so easy to
squander any kind of respect to have so quickly. Trump
had an opportunity to go in there and you know,
have a connection to federal employees and inspire them to
do well right by him.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
Of course he wasn't going to do that, and now
we have a.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Federal workforce that is furious and is likely going to
leak like a sieve and create a lot of secondary.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Problems that he probably wasn't expecting.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
I would stay tuned on this, I think we'll see
a lot of stuff. By the way, Carolyn Levitt, who
is the new Trumpy Press secretary, she is also blonde
and in her twenties, she said that American taxpayers pay
for the salaries of federal government employees, and therefore deserve
employees working on their behalf actually show up to work
(04:02):
in our federal office buildings, also paid by taxpayers. Again,
you know, a lot of these people have been remote
working for a long time, and some of them have
been asked to remote work because their offices have been
closed or because it just works better that way. So,
you know, again a blunt object to try to do
too much. We'll see what happens. This probably will be
(04:25):
pretty bad. Speaking of bad, let's talk about Mark Milly.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yes, so Pete hegg Saith has decided to remove his
security detail, which really seems just spiteful and like most
of these things, stupid.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
It's not just that he wants to remove his security detail.
Pete hegg Seth wants to punish Mark Milly. Now, Mark
Milley has already gotten a pardon from Biden. He was
Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff for four years,
under Trump, and also he was a holdover under Biden,
so he took away the security detail of Milly, Foulton,
oh and Fauci. He's taken away a lot of people
(05:00):
security detail as a way of punishing them by making
them afraid for their safety.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
That's very trumpy, making sure they can't see the the
level of fucker either about it engagement, right.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
It's not good.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
But I want to point out that there's also another
thing happening here right, which is Haigseth is going after
Milly because Milly was the source for these books and
Trump is mad at him. So they're going to say
that this is this is against the chain of command,
and they're going to try to prosecute him, take away
one of his stars, mess with his pension. But I
(05:35):
think it's important to realize, like, these are anti democratic
things that are happening in Trump world. These are the
sort of Project twenty twenty five, for lack of a
better shorthand, this is the autocratic stuff that democrats warned
you was coming. So going after retired military generals is insane,
(05:55):
not the norm, anti democratic, and it is part of
this attacker se thing we see in Trump world. So
just keep your eye on it. It's bad and it's
probably just the beginning.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
As you and I are speaking right now, RFKA Junior
is going through his confirmation hearing. I'm sure the worm
is doing the talking anyway, brainworm.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
Yes, yes, yes, you may have to put anyway go on.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Yes, So we have here Maggie Hassan doing some question
from them in play agree upon.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
I am really hardened to see that one area where
we agree on is on women's reproductive freedom.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
In your own.
Speaker 4 (06:33):
Words, it's not the government's place to tell people.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
What to do with their bodies.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
You said that, correct, yep.
Speaker 5 (06:42):
Mister Kennedy.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
In twenty twenty three, you came to New Hampshire and said, quote,
I'm pro choice. I don't think the government has any
business telling people what they can or cannot.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
Do with their body.
Speaker 4 (06:53):
So you said that right, yes, yep. But you also
said we need to trust the women to make that choice,
because I don't trust government to.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Make any choices.
Speaker 5 (07:02):
She said that too, right.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (07:05):
It is remarkable that you have such a long record
of fighting for women's reproductive freedom, and really great that
my Republican colleagues are so open to voting for a
pro choice HHS secretary.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
So this was smart. This was really fucking smart. And
we talk about how Democrats can be smart.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
This is it.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Right. She's not using it to yell at him, she's
not using it to talk about something weird.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
She's not using it to moralize or.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Grand you know, like we have seen hearings where Democratic
senators have lectured the nominee. That's not what's happening here.
What's happening here is she is highlighting the fact that
RFK Junior doesn't believe in anything, and she does.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
It really well.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
It's really smart, and it's really focused. And I think
that in my mind, the more these questionners can be
focused and they don't have to cover every subject, and
the more they can work together and be like I'm
going to talk about abortion, you should talk about data DA,
the better these things are going to be. And so
again this is my plea to elected democrats. Work together,
(08:20):
divide and conquer, stay focused, don't let these leaders avoid accountability.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
That was really great. Bravo, Maggie Hassen.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
All right, Molly, here, I have an unlikely a tech
dog here for you. But I'm kind of shocked because
Senator Michael Bennett here in the RFK confirmation. Hearing this
at tech dog Barkin and I don't usually see him bark.
Speaker 6 (08:44):
Did you say that COVID nineteen was a genetically engineered
bioweapon the targets black and white people but spared Ashkenazi,
Jews and Chinese people.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
I didn't say it was deliberately targeted.
Speaker 7 (08:58):
I just I just quoted an NIH funded, an NIH
published study.
Speaker 6 (09:06):
Did you say that it targets black and white people
but spared I.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Quote, I quoted an study that show I.
Speaker 6 (09:15):
Take that as I have to move on. I have
to move on. Did you say that lime disease is
is highly likely a materially engineered bioweapon. I made sure
I put in the highly likely. Did you say lime
disease is a highly likely militarily engineered bioweapon?
Speaker 5 (09:36):
I probably did say that.
Speaker 6 (09:37):
Did you say that that's developer. I want all of
our colleagues to hear mister Kennedy, I want them to
hear it.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
You said yes.
Speaker 6 (09:46):
Did you say that exposure to pesticize causes children to
become transgender?
Speaker 4 (09:52):
No?
Speaker 2 (09:52):
I never said that.
Speaker 6 (09:53):
Okay, I have the record that I'll give to the
chairman and he can make his judgment about what you said.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Did you in your book?
Speaker 6 (10:00):
And it's undeniable that African African AIDS is an entirely
different disease from Western AIDS. Yes or no, mister Kennedy.
I'm not sure if I'll give it to the chairman,
mister Kennedy. And my final question, did you say on
a podcast and I quote, I wouldn't leave it abortion
(10:22):
to the States. My belief is we should leave it
to the woman. We shouldn't have the government involved, even
if it's full term. Did you say that, mister Senator?
Speaker 5 (10:33):
I believe that every abortion is a tragedy.
Speaker 6 (10:36):
Did you say it? Mister Kennedy just matters. It doesn't
matter what you come here and say. That isn't true,
that's not reflective of what you really believe that you
haven't said over decade after decade after decade, Because unlike
other jobs we're confirming around this place, this is a
job where it is life and death for the kids
(10:58):
that I used to work for in the Denver public
schools and for families all over this country that are
suffering from living in the richest country of the world
that can't deliver basic healthcare and basic mental health care
to them. It's too important for the games that you're playing,
mister Kennedy. And I hope my colleagues will say to
(11:19):
the President, I have no influence over him. I hope
my colleagues will say to the President, out of three
hundred and thirty million Americans, we can do better than this.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Incredible.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
That was a dog barking in a fight, and I
like to see it.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
That's what we need, man. And way to go, Michael Bennett.
Incredible stuff. Good for him.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
So some good news. We have our first special election
of the year. Democrat Mike Zimmer has won the special
election for ias thirty fifth Senate district seat.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
No one helps Democrats more in elections than Donald Trump.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
He is not on the ballot.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Donald Trump is really helpful to Democrats. And that's because
Donald Trump is not a Republican. He is his own thing,
and the people who turn out for him do not
necessarily turn out for regular Republicans. Zimmer will replace a Republican.
It's small, but it's meaningful. A lot of the craziest
shit comes out of the state House, especially in places
(12:22):
like Iowa, so you can dismiss this, but let's not
let's just enjoy that Iowa's thirty fifth Senate district seat
is now held by a Democrat. Data Milbank is a
columnist at The Washington Post and the author of Fools
on the Hell, the Hooligans, Saboteurs, Conspiracy Theorists, and Dances
(12:45):
who Burned Down the House. Welcome Back, Too Fast, Politics,
Data Melbank.
Speaker 5 (12:52):
Thank you, Molly. It is always a pleasure to be
with you.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
I'm so happy to have you here. Before I came here,
I was watching my favorite channel. And I don't just
say this because they actually have gifted me a fleece recently,
but Caesman is my favorite channel as well it should be,
and I was watching it because I'm incredibly old on
my cable television.
Speaker 5 (13:17):
Wow, how does that work?
Speaker 1 (13:18):
If you're over fifty, you know exactly how cable television works.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
But if you're under you do not.
Speaker 8 (13:24):
No.
Speaker 5 (13:24):
I cut the cord myself.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Oh Jesus Christ.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Anyway, Watching the beginning of the hearing, the tanniest person
ever to occupy Washington, DC, someone who really gives Donald
Trump a run for the money. RFK Junior is about
to begin his hearings discuss.
Speaker 7 (13:42):
I'm a little sad because they actually have like ten
columnists writing on it today at the Washington Post. Why
didn't you just hold off for day two and cash
battel tomorrow? I mean, it is sort of an embarrassment
of riches. Truth is, I would rather do the cash
btel one that's going to be Zanier. But man, I
(14:02):
was not expecting Caroline Kennedy to come out the way
she did.
Speaker 5 (14:06):
He's been great entertainment so far, right.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
I mean, it's important not to be a nihilist about this,
but yes, we can enjoy the horror of it to laugh,
to keep from crying, but yes.
Speaker 7 (14:18):
Go on, yes, And then then does he become Secretary
of Health and Human Services and the Avian flu comes
to get us all, and they've imposed a blackout so
we won't actually know what the government is saying about anything.
We've we're pulling out of the WHO, and you know,
withdrawing funding even before we formally pull out of the WHO,
(14:38):
so the whole you know, we sort of paralyzed the
United States government. We're paralyzing the world's public health response,
and we're not getting basic even childhood vaccines here. Although
I guess I guess he's come out for the polio vaccine.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
So yeah, well you got it. I can't imagine why
he's come out for the poli vaccine when going for
a vote in front of someone who has still suffers
from the effects of polio. I guess that he can't
quite say that polio was a hoax yet No.
Speaker 7 (15:11):
And then you know, then of course Trump came out
for these both the vaccine, and you.
Speaker 5 (15:16):
Know with his line, it sounded like Frederick Douglas.
Speaker 7 (15:19):
He's like, yeah, Jonahsock did some great work and he's
being recognized more and more.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Yeah, watching these Republicans and again, look Friday, we saw
this hegseth vote. It was you know, all we have
in Trump world is the sort of history of Trump
one point zero where Democrats were able to prevent Republicans
from doing a lot of the worst stuff, right Like
they wanted to appeal the ACA. They didn't want to
(15:49):
repeal ACA. They wanted to repeal Obamacare. Turns out that
was the same thing. But there were a lot of
tries at doing things, but a lot of stuff they
were they wanted to do, they couldn't do. So now
the whole sort of premise of Trump's second term at
least according to the people behind the scenes who are
writing what little policy there is is to really do
(16:09):
that stuff this time.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
And so that's kind of what we're watching unfold.
Speaker 5 (16:13):
Yes and no, I mean I think it.
Speaker 7 (16:16):
You know, where Democrats blocked Trump the first time was
in Congress. So let's you know, realize. I mean, Congress
hasn't done anything yet. I mean, I guess there's the
Lake and Riley Act, right, which is symbolic, and he'llsale
sign that.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
Right, which is crime's bad.
Speaker 7 (16:30):
Yeah, crime is, crime remains bad. It's just as bad
and maybe even more bad than it was yesterday.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Right, Murdering a very good looking white person especially bad.
Speaker 5 (16:41):
Yes, well you got you got it right.
Speaker 7 (16:43):
You get an extra extra time in the pokey for that,
you know. I mean, what Trump is trying to do
is say, you know, the hell with Congress. I'm going
to act by executive FIAT to do the things I
couldn't do last time. So you know, that's what we've
had so far with these three hundred executive or and actions.
So I mean, none of them is the law of
(17:04):
the land, right, all easily undone eventually, you know, by
a future administration, because it's not legislation, and hopefully a
lot of them to be undone in court. You know,
already his attempt to sign a piece of paper that
eliminates the fourteenth Amendment. And now you see the zany
(17:24):
freeze of everything.
Speaker 9 (17:25):
Three trillion dollars of the federal government. Now that's right, now,
that's that's on hold. So once you know, it's shocking,
it's overwhelming what we've seen over the last ten days
or so, and I think we do need, you know,
not just outrage, but concerned action in terms of court action.
But you know, it has to be remembered at the
(17:47):
same time that there is only so much he can
do by executive order, and he's he's seizing powers that
he doesn't have right now. So presumably that ultimately doesn't last,
and even this frum friendly Supreme Court won't allow it
to happen. Of course, you know, if the Trump friendly
Supreme Court decides you don't actually need a legislative branch
and the president can do whatever he wants, well, then
(18:09):
we're in a different Then we're in a different place.
But you know we'll cross that bridge. Will we get
to it?
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Yeah, the Trump friendly Supreme Court, We're going to do
two minutes on the impoundment stuff.
Speaker 7 (18:18):
Because any any more than that and everybody would stop listening.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Yes, exactly, because not only will you unsubscribe, but you
will block me from your feet. But what I want,
why I want to talk about empowerment is because so
empoundment means there's money that Congress appropriates for things.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
That's how it works.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Congress is theoretically supposed to control the purse. But what
Nixon did, and you'll remember Nixon as the closest thing
to Trump, I do remember, mintion is yes, this was
way before Jesse and I were born, because we're very young. Basically,
he used the money that Congress appropriated as a kind
(18:56):
of carrotenstick for stuff he wanted and favors the kind
of oligarch autocrat shit that they do in Russia. And
now ross vat at omb did this in the first
Trump administration. That's why he got impeached for Ukrain. Now
we're in the second Trump administration. Rusvat is still not
Senate approved yet, though he probably will be because nobody
(19:19):
has any bravery whatsoever. But the question here is will
Republicans be able to impound the money?
Speaker 3 (19:29):
Will they keep it will this law.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
The nineteen seventy four Impoundment Act put to prevent this
put into law to prevent this, will that be upheld?
Or is some of the purpose of this to create
a constitutional crisis, to bring this law up to the
Supreme Court and to assume that Trump's justices will do
what he wants.
Speaker 7 (19:51):
I assume that is what they're up to here. I mean,
you know, to listen to russ vote and his confirmation hearings.
They say, well, you know, he's asked about the Empowerment Act.
I say, well, you know, President Trump says it's unconstitutional
and President Trump campaigned against it. Well, if you campaigned
against it and you won, so I guess that means
you don't have to follow that particular law. So clearly
(20:13):
it's it's they're planning a flagrant violation of the law,
which already has been upheld by the Supreme Court. And
the assumption has to be that this particular Supreme Court
is going to be friendlier. But that's quite a ways
to go. Then why bother giving Congress the purse strings?
If ultimately the president is going to decide which money
will get spent and which money won't get spent.
Speaker 5 (20:35):
But you know, I mean there's a lot of that.
Speaker 7 (20:37):
You know, take saying you know, the law is what
I say it is, whether it's with the impoundment of
the fourteenth Amendment or you know, firing a dozen Inspectors
General without the notice, you know, eliminating career civil servant protections.
I mean, all of this is in flagrant violation of
the law. So clearly they're trying to precipitate either a
(20:59):
constitutionetional crisis or just wiping out laws by you know,
the Supreme Court blessing the wiping out of laws by
this a stroke of the penet of the president.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
Right, there is a real question.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
And I mean I always think that cynicism is the
worst thing we can have here. As much as you
and I are very cynical, there have been times when
this Supreme Court has not completely rubber stamped Donald Trump.
And I'm thinking about the sentencing opinion, right, even though
it was an insane thing to send up to the court,
because the truth is, there's no reason why this man
(21:31):
should not have had to sit for the sentencing. But whatever,
it was still Roberts and Barrett who went with the liberals.
So here's a question for you. If it gets kicked
to the Supreme Court, what do you think that means?
Speaker 7 (21:43):
Well, I'm glad you asked me, because I am a
constitutional scholar. Known to me, I do still hold out
some hope that Barrett and Roberts and even Kavanaugh, you know,
still have some sense of some basic fealty to the
constantutione and are not interested in rewriting things for political purposes,
(22:04):
as say, you know, Alito or Thomas or Gorsuch. Maybe
I guess in the broader sense, yes, that would be
a constitutional crisis, and the impact, of course, would be
devastating if the Supreme Court, you know, sent this country
in an entirely different direction after two centuries.
Speaker 5 (22:20):
I think until we get to.
Speaker 7 (22:22):
That point, which is still pretty far off, what really
matters is not the outrage over he's destroying institutions and
norms and he's precipitating a crisis. What's going to matter
is people are going to say, wait a second, I
voted for this guy to reduce prices, and all he
is doing is picking fights and vengeance and taking away
(22:42):
people's security details. And now he's taking away my medicaid
benefits and meals on.
Speaker 5 (22:49):
Wheels for old folks.
Speaker 7 (22:50):
So that's what's going to matter, is when people see
and head start, Yeah, things going badly for them and
people around them. President not delivering what he was supposed
to do and instead he's all about settling personal scores
and trying to pick fights with the Congress in the
Supreme Court, right, and.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
That I think is that that will be the big question.
So here we are, we have more confirmation hearings. I mean,
Cash Bettel, Tulsea Gabbard, RFK Junior. You know, I saw
rfk's former vice presidential whatever, Nicole Shanahan, doing a video
about how if anyone votes against him, she will fund
(23:30):
primary challengers. We've seen other billionaires do this. As a
favorite of Elon's too, or as we like to think
of him, Leon, what's your take on this? I mean,
does this work? I mean I guess it does, right.
Speaker 7 (23:42):
Yes, but it's sort of you know, redundant. I mean,
you know, there's already automatic primary challenges to anybody who
defies Trump for anything, so they don't need any additional
funding from Nicole Shanahan or Elon Musk or anybody else,
you know, So I think those threats are kind of ludicrous.
I mean, there already is lockstep discipline, or at least
there has been so far. I mean, look, you could
(24:02):
have knocked me over with a feather when McConnell actually
voted against xact or maybe he knew that he was
going through anyway.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
I'm going to stop you for a minute because you
are a real DC person. And again and everyone who's
so cynicals like, oh McConnell, whatever he knew, I don't
think he knew.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
First of all, I think that.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Tillis was a no until they went and talked to
him for two hours.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
God knows what they said to him.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
The fact that he's voting against nominees I think is
really meaningful. Say more about why you think it's meaningful.
Speaker 7 (24:31):
Well, because for ten years now, I've been thinking, oh,
this is the moment when McConnell will actually stand up
to Trump when it matters. At each time it's been
you know, Charlie Brown in the football. So I mean,
maybe it didn't matter this time since it was going
through anyway, But.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
It's meaningful because McConnell was the leader, and like mcconnald's
vote means more than a regular center vote.
Speaker 7 (24:55):
Yeah, I suppose, or maybe it means more in public.
I mean, he's been so discredited in Maga eyes as
you know, the old crow. I'm not actually sure it
matters that much to the Trump faithful.
Speaker 5 (25:07):
But look, it's a numbers game.
Speaker 7 (25:08):
And if you got Murkowski and Collins are somewhat more
reliable no on the most zany outrages and abuses, and
if McConnell, then all right, you're down to your tiebreaker.
And then you know who's the next guy who's going
to develop a spine? It may it looked like that
on the hegseth. That might be Tom Tillsey even had
(25:30):
what was it his excess. Former sister in law urged
her to come out publicly because he said that could
tilt the balance. She comes out publicly and he still votes.
Thanks a lot, dude.
Speaker 5 (25:42):
So you know, will he grow a spine or a pair?
Speaker 7 (25:47):
As they say, I'll be pleasantly surprised when I see it.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Yeah, But I mean I do think it's meaningful. And
again I understand that I'm the boy whistling in the
dark to keep myself from being afraid.
Speaker 5 (25:57):
But this is all we have that's right, Well, on
to something.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
So the frozen federal budget is now there's a court injunction.
We're going to see that play out. We've got more hearings.
I mean, what else are you watching here?
Speaker 5 (26:12):
It's a little bit of ADHD. I should try to
focus on anything.
Speaker 7 (26:15):
I mean, yeah, I mean last week I was focusing
on Trump not seeming to know what his own administration
is doing, and clearly his press secretary doesn't know either.
I'm focusing more on his vengeance this week. She seems great,
by the way, Oh she's brilliant. Yeah, yeah, just yet
another really, I mean, just another star in the making.
(26:37):
I threw in a line about her wearing a purple
jacket and across of the type most commonly seen repelling vampires,
and I thought I would get a lot more blowback
than I did.
Speaker 5 (26:48):
But you know, people are anti vampire.
Speaker 7 (26:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (26:51):
I mean what I'm watching for.
Speaker 7 (26:53):
Is I alluded to a moment ago is where he's
actually doing things that are going to hurt people, forcing
up prices, shuttering programs, precipitating international crises, you know, things
that people are going to notice and feel in their
lives and say, hey, wait a second, this is not
what I voted for. That's what's it's going to matter,
(27:13):
because you know, the election unfortunately, did prove that for
a lot of people, you know, talking about he's destroying
our constitutional system and our democracy.
Speaker 5 (27:22):
It just didn't wash for them.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Yeah, I mean that is that fundamental problem with Trump,
isn't which is when you try to explain that he's
planning on doing all this stuff, people would be like, well,
he didn't do it last time.
Speaker 5 (27:34):
Yeah, right, because he tried and he couldn't.
Speaker 7 (27:36):
But it looks like he may well be able to
get a lot of this done this time, you know,
and in a sense like yeah, you know, the federal
judge saved him from himself with this you know, temporary
to till February third, whatever, you know, suspension of the
of the pause, the pause and the pause. But you know,
I mean at some point, yeah, they're going to stop
the head start and meals on wheels and medicaid or
(27:58):
some equivalent crisis, and people are going to actually say,
wait a second, this is not what I thought I
was getting.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
Right exactly, this is not what I thought I was getting.
Dana Melbank.
Speaker 5 (28:07):
I hope he'll come back anytime.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Molly Alex Wagner is the host of MSNBC's Trump Land
with Alex Wagner. Welcome to Fast Politics, Alex Wagner, thank
you for having me.
Speaker 10 (28:21):
Molly John passed.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
I'm so excited. I'm thrilled you're doing this really interesting thing.
Explain to us what you're doing now.
Speaker 10 (28:29):
Well, listen.
Speaker 11 (28:30):
I think when Trump was reelected there was thinking that, like,
we got to do something differently this time. We got
to be eggrective in our coverage. We got to look
under each stone, and there are many stones. But we
also need to be enterprising in terms of what we're
covering because obviously Trump is the master of distraction and
there's really important stuff that happens that we often don't
get it to really talk about our analyze because we're
(28:52):
dealing with a daily onslaught of controversy. So we have
the inimitable Rachel Mattow sitting at the desk five days
a week, and we have me out in a country
reporting on the big stories of each week and talking
to people that honestly, you don't usually see on television,
having conversations that you don't normally hear on television. And
the idea is we got to do something differently, like
(29:13):
I said, and we're going to be as tenacious and
as aggressive and as you know, resourceful as the moment demand.
Speaker 10 (29:19):
So that's what I've been doing.
Speaker 11 (29:20):
And like I started last week outside of DC jail
talking to January sixth inmates, and this week I've been
speaking to migrants who are working to know their rights
and figure out a strategy and a battle plan for
mass deportation, which seems to be very clearly at the
top of the President's list of things to do.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
So I have a lot of questions.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
First, I want you to talk about the January sixth
talking to those people, because that is a really interesting
group that I mean, and I don't mean this to
elevate them, because I know there's a lot of really
problematic stuff for the larger like four democracy, But I'm
wondering if you could talk just a little bit about
(30:00):
what it was like with the group out there and
sort of what their expectations were and what their feelings
were about Donald Trump.
Speaker 11 (30:07):
Yeah, I mean, I wanted to have the conversations with
them because I think it's important to know the sort
of to understand the stories of the people who are
at the center of the news, and I was eager
to hear first of all their thoughts about Trump and
also kind of like where their allegiance stands now that
they're free, because I think a lot of people wonder
how Trump is going to carry out some of his
(30:28):
most draconian plans. You know, standard of lawlessness or lawfulness
is and they are a great bell weather for that.
So you know, the first thing that struck me. I mean,
perhaps it's not surprising that they are so intensely loyal
to Donald Trump in a way that I think eclipses
even their sense of allegiance on January six. Like, I
talked to one father who had two children in jail.
(30:50):
He himself was also there at January six, and he
said to me, with tears in his eyes, I would
die for this now.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
So they don't feel like Trump put them in this position.
Speaker 11 (30:58):
No, And I told you a woman who was involved
in the riot and was pardoned by President Trump. She said,
I don't understand why I was ever in jail. And
Anthony Fauci and Liz Cheney warrant, Oh wow. The sort
of conspiracy theory narratives that have been spun around prominent
resistance figures and resistance is like does people who are
still tethered to reality and care about the future of
(31:20):
a you know, our American democracy. That sort of poison
is like deep in the veins, especially for January six ers,
even though they may have been in you know, federal
kind of tenuries during the like most of the last
couple of years. They are angry, but they are also
intensely hopeful about what President Trump can establish and accomplish,
(31:42):
and they're ready to go for him. I mean, I
asked a number of them, if he asks you to
go do something, will you go do it? And almost
to a person, they said, hell, yeah, Like he hasn't
given up on us. We would never give up on him.
The other thing is so speaking Molly, is so many
of them have talked directly with Trump. Either they were
at mar A Lago, you know, if they were family
members of Jason, or they've spoken on the phone to
him numerous times. I mean, as a matter of like
(32:04):
constituent outreach. Donald Trump is a machine. Like the fact
that this guy has focused so much of his attentions
on this group of people should tell you a lot
about how important they are to him. In his second presidency, and.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
If we look historically at autocrats who craft their own
militias or their own it never.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
Ends well, you never want an autocrat.
Speaker 10 (32:29):
To have a bunch an army, right.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
De facto army.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
That is never a good sign for democratic norms.
Speaker 11 (32:38):
Well, and it's not just the fifteen hundred people he
pardoned or community the sentences of it's the signal that's
sent to any other militia member. I mean, I talked
to militia memories before the twenty twenty election who may
not have actually been there on January sixth, but were
inclined to think about extra judicial solutions to a broken
government or a broken.
Speaker 10 (32:56):
You know, election. They you know, there are a lot
of people.
Speaker 11 (32:59):
Who weren't active around January sixth, but have been entranced
by Maggot in the intervening years. And like the pardoning
is a huge signal to all of them that if
you do Trump spitting, he's got your back.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
Yeah. No, I think that's right.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
And that is, if you think about it, quite worrying
for any number of reasons. And the fact that they
consider themselves to be sort of the bizarro doctor Fauci
is just can you talk me through that?
Speaker 11 (33:26):
Thinking, they believe that there are actors who are trying
to destroy the country. I mean, this is where the
q Andon like the snake, the q Andon snake begins
eating the Maga tail right right, the like there was
no mention of pizza.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
Game, right. Oh, well, that's something, you know.
Speaker 11 (33:42):
The vast conspiracy that exists in the deep state is
something they absolutely believe in. They believe, to a person
that the twenty twenty election was stolen. I asked a
number of them, well, if twenty twenty was stolen, why
we let him win in twenty twenty four, and they said,
because it was too big to rig. His margin was
just too big to rig, and that's the only reason
the system wasn't set up against him. But they believe that,
you know, Lias Cheney is a trader. I mean, they
(34:03):
believe that Mark Milly is a trader. They believe that
Anthony Fauci is the architect of our national despair. And
the question is the degree to which Trump sort of
tries to point them in that direction and actually calls
for them to do something to those people. I mean,
of course I hope that never happens, but it seemed
to me that a number of them were ready to
do what you know, they needed to do because this
(34:24):
was bigger than just them, This was bigger than jail time.
This was a central part of what they understood to
be their American identity, which is wild.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
You know it's wild, right, I think that's really important.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
We interviewed this academic who I'm kind of obsessed with
at Harvard called Thetis Scotch Paul, and she was talking
about how often post a pandemic people will have a
certain amount of memory holding, like they just won't be
able to keep the memory of the experience in their
head because it's so traumatic. How does that make sense
(34:55):
with this just like amateur psychiatrists for me, for a second.
Speaker 10 (35:00):
Gary, amateur, Like didn't go to med.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
School, I didn't even go to college.
Speaker 10 (35:04):
So well, but you're you're what is it, You're naturally brilliant.
Speaker 11 (35:09):
I'm not sure, but anyway, yeah, listen, I totally agree.
I feel like so much of our national unpacking needs
to happen around COVID because I do think it's like
a lacuna and people were filled with so much rage
and loneliness and despair and it compounded. And I really
believe this you know what Vivick Murphy, the Surgeon General,
(35:31):
once called like at the epidemic of loneliness and what
you know, Michael, there's so many people that sees on
this this is all connected, right. People feel alone, they
feel disconnected from community. They're angry about their their particular situation,
whether economically, culturally, financially, socially whatever, and they look for
an outlet for that, and for these kind of jan
sixers and so the Maga diehards. I think COVID was
(35:52):
this incredible inflection point where they had no outlet for
the loneliness, They had no one to turn to, and
here comes a strong man suggesting that all of this
is a fabrication. That all of the pain that they
felt and that they've gone through and that lies ahead
for them, can you know, be either erased or vanished
from the horizon if they just believe in him. I mean,
I think it also speaks to the decline of like
(36:14):
religion in this country, like are you know, the public
spare has gone away and people just want to believe
in someone and something and Trump, you know, sort of
I think the dawn of perhaps the most the more
poisonous stage of Trump ism that coincided with the COVID pandemic,
and I just think that there's a lot that that
(36:35):
stirred up, that there's a direct line you can draw
between the sort of venomous force of MAGA and what
everybody went through during the COVID pandemic.
Speaker 10 (36:44):
I mean, you know, like I think all of.
Speaker 11 (36:46):
Us liberals, centrists and you know, conservatives, we've all had
to kind of move past it in a way because
life goes on, right.
Speaker 10 (36:53):
But it was intensely scarring.
Speaker 11 (36:55):
I mean, and you know people who lost their loved
ones in the hospitals and had to say goodbye on zoom.
I mean, these are dehumanizing moments that the just being
apart from each other, which is against the natural order
of humanity. I mean, we haven't come to terms, I think,
with just absolutely how disruptive and devastating those those several
years were.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
You know, it's as you're talking about this, what I'm
struck by is I was on Morning Joe, not that
we're doing MSPR here, but we can, but we can.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
There's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
I was talking to Read Hoffman and he was saying, like,
AI is going to be so great, and I was like,
you know, it seems like there's going to be unintended consequences.
Can you talk about the unintended consequences? Because that's something
that is really right at the top of my mind
when we talk about Trump is because they're always you know,
move fast and break things, means you actually break things.
Speaker 3 (37:49):
And I said him, what are the unintended consequences?
Speaker 1 (37:51):
And he was like, well, after the printing press there
was you know, one hundred years of war, and I
just was thinking about how advances, how these terrifying unintended consequences.
Though I think with the Rioters this is actually an
intended consequence.
Speaker 11 (38:07):
Yeah, I mean I think we underestimate how cathartic ragees.
You know, having an enemy to pin your disappointments on
can be just a hugely relieving thing, you know, and
if you're living with pain or you're living in a
dark place, I mean there is something to be said
for like you go, I've been to a number of
(38:28):
Trump rallies, right, yeah, and they take on the air
of a religious revival, right they fill this hole. And
I mean, like not to get super like therapy on you,
but like there is something incredibly intoxicating about anger, right,
It's like a fueling feeling. And yeah, like I just
I feel like after a period of hurt, whether it's
just COVID or the preceding years, to just be able
(38:51):
to live in a state of rage, can be electrified.
Speaker 10 (38:53):
And I think that's part of the appeal here.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
Yeah, I think that's right.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
And I also think it's so interesting talk to me
about the next week. You go to a radically different
place with a radically different group of people.
Speaker 3 (39:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 11 (39:06):
Well, I mean, I think the idea is to get
into the muscle of all of this because we taught
so much of the consequences and the players. All that
exists in the abstract. So we talk about immigration, We
hear about these immigration rates as like what's going on
with the immigrants?
Speaker 9 (39:22):
You know?
Speaker 10 (39:22):
And what I found was just an extraordinary amount of fear.
Speaker 4 (39:26):
You know.
Speaker 11 (39:26):
I talk to a number of people who are terrified
and maybe keeping their children home from school. They don't
know what their future next week is. But I also
found a community of people who are trying to understand
what their constitutional rights are. There's a series of seminars
called no Your Rights the Borders Are. Tom Holman calls
them how to escape arrest seminars, but they're run by
various community groups, and they're these kind of workshops where
(39:48):
immigrants go, they can ask questions, they get kind of
a strategy for how to deal with ICE agents if
they come in and try and arrest them. And you know,
they do what is called a role playing exercise where
one migrant will be the migrant and one will be
the ICE agent, and they kind of do this acting
exercise effectively to run through, did you a dry run
a test run of what it would be like to
(40:09):
be on the verge of deportation?
Speaker 10 (40:11):
And it was so.
Speaker 11 (40:12):
Fascinating, Molly, because on some level, these people are confronting
their greatest fear right, it's very scenario that their life
in America is on the precipice of ending right and
shattering everything that they've built. And the other level, they're
confronting it right most directly and in that way that
this is like one long therapy session.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
No, it's good, I feel very very helpful to me anyway,
go on.
Speaker 11 (40:33):
Yet, confronting your fears is a way of gaining.
Speaker 10 (40:37):
Strength and feeling empowered.
Speaker 11 (40:39):
And what you would see in the course of these
workshops is that people would start to laugh and people
started engaging, and they felt like they were united as one,
and they felt like you know when you look fear
right in the eye and say, Okay, I got this,
I can do this.
Speaker 10 (40:50):
I know what I'm going to do. I have a plan.
Speaker 11 (40:53):
It's the only way to manage what is right now,
especially an unmanageable, chaotic and totally unprettict situation. Right like
people don't know whether they can go to the grocery store,
and ge don't know whether the kids can go to school.
They're just like they're terrified. But if you can say
I know what I'm going to do, you know, it's
like stop, drop and roll. It's like this is the
order of things. It offers some sense of empowerment, it
(41:16):
offers sense of agency, and it was like, actually a
totally remarkable thing to see how this group of very
marginalized people who are largely under assault from the Trump
administration is managing this moment of profound fear. And in
a lot of ways it was weirdly hopeful, right Like
nobody's suggesting they're not going to get deported, but just
in terms of the human struggle, looking at the resilience
(41:37):
of these people, right, the people who worked their butts
off to come to America and continue to work their
butts off as the economic backbone, and who want to
stay in America to continue to contribute to society and
say almost to a person, we still love this place,
we still believe in this place, we believe we are equal,
and we know we have rights. It was really like
an extraordinary experience to see how they're coping with this moment.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
I mean, there is hope in this And I also
think that the stories of people and their real experience
are the only way we can get into what's actually happening,
because you know, the statistics don't really tell the story
that people know.
Speaker 10 (42:12):
No, they did. Yeah, And also I think it's really important.
Speaker 11 (42:15):
The right has a very well oiled like social media
machine and messaging machine around getting the garbage out, which
is what the arkham Mansecurity Secretary called undocumented migrants in
this country, and like the left has largely I think
because they were cowed by the twenty twenty four election results.
They feel like they don't have their immigration platform worked out.
But the vitriol that's coming from the right, the mischaracterization
(42:37):
of who these people are is being met with utter
silence on the left, and so honestly it's left to
the media to go and say, oh, but this is
actually who these people are.
Speaker 10 (42:45):
They are not there.
Speaker 11 (42:46):
I mean, it's a vanishing percentage that are actually violent criminals.
This majority of these people are people that are making
the country hup. And it's important to remind everybody of
the real actual narrative here and not what Trump and
his allies would have you believe.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
Let's have two seconds on Tom Holman, because this guy
is such an interesting character and what he's doing right
now is absolutely atrocious. But he comes from Obama world, right,
I mean, he has had this strange transition he was retired.
Speaker 11 (43:18):
Yeah, I think there's something that happens when you're in
a kind of incarceratory position.
Speaker 10 (43:25):
Where in order to do the work.
Speaker 11 (43:27):
You kind of need to dehumanize the people that you
are arresting and incarcerating. You have to begin to look
at them as the enemy that needs to be caught.
I mean, I think that's just kind of a natural
progression of things, right, I mean, I think cops sometimes
have to de humanize people. They have to think in
blanket terms, like I'm sure prison guards kind of do
the same thing, and I think if.
Speaker 10 (43:46):
Your borders are you often do that.
Speaker 11 (43:49):
The issue with Holman is he seems to have drunk
from the fountain of Maga, and the dehumanization has taken
on a level of cruelty and sort of like shamelessness.
It is a stunning portrait of like our darker selves. Right,
there's a zeal for capture and enthusiasm for punishment and
a wartlessness that seems really like a byproduct of someone
(44:13):
who's I don't know. It's gotten very dark in tom
Home and Land in the intervening years between Obama and
it's I think unfortunate that we have someone so seemingly
incapable of seeing the humanity in these people, who's running
the entire program.
Speaker 10 (44:25):
I mean, I think the same of Stephen Miller too.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
Yes, Steven Miller. Find someone who loves you, like Steven
Miller hates immigrants. Thank you so much, Alex, really appreciate you,
and may till you want to come back and talk
about your report.
Speaker 3 (44:39):
It would be really great.
Speaker 10 (44:40):
I will come back whenever you'll have me.
Speaker 8 (44:42):
Molly, no moment, Andon Jesse Cannon, So Molly, yesterday we
got a first taste of a press briefing by Caroline Lovett, and.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
The taste was Korean from the northern region of the
region in my Tastes.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
Carolyn Levitt, Trump's new press secretary for as long as
she lasts, did a lot of the kind of stuff
we saw previous Trump press secretaries do whenever they would
have press briefings, which was not that often. You know,
it's funny because it's like, I think of all the
people in Trump World, like, will she end up going
against Trump and will I end up interviewing her on
(45:27):
this podcast or will she go along with and end
up on Fox News. It's a real choose your own
adventure for Carolyn Levitt. She is at this job to
humiliate the press, to elevate right wing figures, to spread lies,
to be hostile. You know, she has this job for
(45:49):
one reason, right, So we shouldn't be surprised, you know,
this is what happens and so but she is our
moment of fun Gray.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
Can I make a third wager on where she ends up? Yeah?
This is my wild card televangelist.
Speaker 3 (46:05):
Very nice, not impossible.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in
every Monday Wednesday Thursday and Saturday to hear the best
minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If
you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend
and keep the conversation going.
Speaker 3 (46:27):
Thanks for listening.
Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,
where we discussed the top political headlines with some of
today's best minds, and Donald Trump is now the least
popular newly elected president since World War Two. We have
such a great show for you today. The Washington Post
Dana Milbank stops by to talk about the republicans chaotic
(00:23):
confirmation hearings. Then we'll talk to MSNBC's Alex Wagner about
Trump's immigration shogunaw.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
But first the news so Mali yesterday there was a lot,
a lot, a lot of shokunaw. But the thing that
we didn't get to yesterday was that the Trump administration
offered roughly two million federal workers a buyout to resign
and that they would pay their salary forward for seven months.
This did not include a lot of people, for example,
(00:54):
congressional employees, people and like the CBO, things like that,
but it did include a lot of federal employees that
they think they could do without. What are you seeing here?
Speaker 1 (01:03):
I'm going to read a tweet thread from an ABC
reporter who noticed that this email looks suspiciously like a
twenty twenty two email that Elon Musk wrote to Twitter
employees after he bought the company and fired almost all
of them. The memo sent to government employees this evening,
(01:23):
offering them buyouts very closely mirrors and email Musk sent
in twenty twenty two down to the same subject line
of fork in the Road. The twenty twenty two email
tells Twitter employees only exceptional performance will constitute a passing grade.
Compare that to the memo, the federal workforce should be
comprised of the best America has to offer. We insist
(01:46):
on excellence at every level, and another similarity. The same way,
the OPM memo requires employees to only respond resigned to
the email. To seal the deal, Musk as Twitter's employees
to click yes on this link below if they wanted
to stay on a Twitter. Look, this is clearly the
(02:07):
brainchild and I mean brain very loosely of the Office
of Government Efficiency. We don't know if this is legal
right to do this. We don't know if they have
the money for this. I mean, this is all like
cooked up in the middle of the night fever dream thing.
But again, you know, this is the Donald Trump, move
(02:29):
fast and break things presidency, so we'll see what happens.
We did see Tim Kaine come out and say, do
not agree to this. They don't have any standing. Just
ignore them, and we're going to probably see, as you're
telling me from your friends, we're probably going to see
a lot more of government employees just ignoring the stuff
(02:49):
that's coming from on high.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah. A lot of people I were speaking to is
like almost no one qualifies for this. As well. There's
a tweet from Amanda Littman front of the show from
Run for Some that shows a lot of people are like, hell, no,
I'm staying here to make sure things don't go to hell.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
It's funny because it's like, it's not funny now, this
is funny.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
It's fucked up.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
But it's interesting to see that it's so easy to
squander any kind of respect to have so quickly. Trump
had an opportunity to go in there and you know,
have a connection to federal employees and inspire them to
do well right by him.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
Of course he wasn't going to do that, and now
we have a.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Federal workforce that is furious and is likely going to
leak like a sieve and create a lot of secondary.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Problems that he probably wasn't expecting.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
I would stay tuned on this, I think we'll see
a lot of stuff. By the way, Carolyn Levitt, who
is the new Trumpy Press secretary, she is also blonde
and in her twenties, she said that American taxpayers pay
for the salaries of federal government employees, and therefore deserve
employees working on their behalf actually show up to work
(04:02):
in our federal office buildings, also paid by taxpayers. Again,
you know, a lot of these people have been remote
working for a long time, and some of them have
been asked to remote work because their offices have been
closed or because it just works better that way. So,
you know, again a blunt object to try to do
too much. We'll see what happens. This probably will be
(04:25):
pretty bad. Speaking of bad, let's talk about Mark Milly.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yes, so Pete hegg Saith has decided to remove his
security detail, which really seems just spiteful and like most
of these things, stupid.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
It's not just that he wants to remove his security detail.
Pete hegg Seth wants to punish Mark Milly. Now, Mark
Milley has already gotten a pardon from Biden. He was
Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff for four years,
under Trump, and also he was a holdover under Biden,
so he took away the security detail of Milly, Foulton,
oh and Fauci. He's taken away a lot of people
(05:00):
security detail as a way of punishing them by making
them afraid for their safety.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
That's very trumpy, making sure they can't see the the
level of fucker either about it engagement, right.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
It's not good.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
But I want to point out that there's also another
thing happening here right, which is Haigseth is going after
Milly because Milly was the source for these books and
Trump is mad at him. So they're going to say
that this is this is against the chain of command,
and they're going to try to prosecute him, take away
one of his stars, mess with his pension. But I
(05:35):
think it's important to realize, like, these are anti democratic
things that are happening in Trump world. These are the
sort of Project twenty twenty five, for lack of a
better shorthand, this is the autocratic stuff that democrats warned
you was coming. So going after retired military generals is insane,
(05:55):
not the norm, anti democratic, and it is part of
this attacker se thing we see in Trump world. So
just keep your eye on it. It's bad and it's
probably just the beginning.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
As you and I are speaking right now, RFKA Junior
is going through his confirmation hearing. I'm sure the worm
is doing the talking anyway, brainworm.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
Yes, yes, yes, you may have to put anyway go on.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Yes, So we have here Maggie Hassan doing some question
from them in play agree upon.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
I am really hardened to see that one area where
we agree on is on women's reproductive freedom.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
In your own.
Speaker 4 (06:33):
Words, it's not the government's place to tell people.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
What to do with their bodies.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
You said that, correct, yep.
Speaker 5 (06:42):
Mister Kennedy.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
In twenty twenty three, you came to New Hampshire and said, quote,
I'm pro choice. I don't think the government has any
business telling people what they can or cannot.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
Do with their body.
Speaker 4 (06:53):
So you said that right, yes, yep. But you also
said we need to trust the women to make that choice,
because I don't trust government to.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Make any choices.
Speaker 5 (07:02):
She said that too, right.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (07:05):
It is remarkable that you have such a long record
of fighting for women's reproductive freedom, and really great that
my Republican colleagues are so open to voting for a
pro choice HHS secretary.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
So this was smart. This was really fucking smart. And
we talk about how Democrats can be smart.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
This is it.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Right. She's not using it to yell at him, she's
not using it to talk about something weird.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
She's not using it to moralize or.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Grand you know, like we have seen hearings where Democratic
senators have lectured the nominee. That's not what's happening here.
What's happening here is she is highlighting the fact that
RFK Junior doesn't believe in anything, and she does.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
It really well.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
It's really smart, and it's really focused. And I think
that in my mind, the more these questionners can be
focused and they don't have to cover every subject, and
the more they can work together and be like I'm
going to talk about abortion, you should talk about data DA,
the better these things are going to be. And so
again this is my plea to elected democrats. Work together,
(08:20):
divide and conquer, stay focused, don't let these leaders avoid accountability.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
That was really great. Bravo, Maggie Hassen.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
All right, Molly, here, I have an unlikely a tech
dog here for you. But I'm kind of shocked because
Senator Michael Bennett here in the RFK confirmation. Hearing this
at tech dog Barkin and I don't usually see him bark.
Speaker 6 (08:44):
Did you say that COVID nineteen was a genetically engineered
bioweapon the targets black and white people but spared Ashkenazi,
Jews and Chinese people.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
I didn't say it was deliberately targeted.
Speaker 7 (08:58):
I just I just quoted an NIH funded, an NIH
published study.
Speaker 6 (09:06):
Did you say that it targets black and white people
but spared I.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Quote, I quoted an study that show I.
Speaker 6 (09:15):
Take that as I have to move on. I have
to move on. Did you say that lime disease is
is highly likely a materially engineered bioweapon. I made sure
I put in the highly likely. Did you say lime
disease is a highly likely militarily engineered bioweapon?
Speaker 5 (09:36):
I probably did say that.
Speaker 6 (09:37):
Did you say that that's developer. I want all of
our colleagues to hear mister Kennedy, I want them to
hear it.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
You said yes.
Speaker 6 (09:46):
Did you say that exposure to pesticize causes children to
become transgender?
Speaker 4 (09:52):
No?
Speaker 2 (09:52):
I never said that.
Speaker 6 (09:53):
Okay, I have the record that I'll give to the
chairman and he can make his judgment about what you said.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Did you in your book?
Speaker 6 (10:00):
And it's undeniable that African African AIDS is an entirely
different disease from Western AIDS. Yes or no, mister Kennedy.
I'm not sure if I'll give it to the chairman,
mister Kennedy. And my final question, did you say on
a podcast and I quote, I wouldn't leave it abortion
(10:22):
to the States. My belief is we should leave it
to the woman. We shouldn't have the government involved, even
if it's full term. Did you say that, mister Senator?
Speaker 5 (10:33):
I believe that every abortion is a tragedy.
Speaker 6 (10:36):
Did you say it? Mister Kennedy just matters. It doesn't
matter what you come here and say. That isn't true,
that's not reflective of what you really believe that you
haven't said over decade after decade after decade, Because unlike
other jobs we're confirming around this place, this is a
job where it is life and death for the kids
(10:58):
that I used to work for in the Denver public
schools and for families all over this country that are
suffering from living in the richest country of the world
that can't deliver basic healthcare and basic mental health care
to them. It's too important for the games that you're playing,
mister Kennedy. And I hope my colleagues will say to
(11:19):
the President, I have no influence over him. I hope
my colleagues will say to the President, out of three
hundred and thirty million Americans, we can do better than this.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Incredible.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
That was a dog barking in a fight, and I
like to see it.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
That's what we need, man. And way to go, Michael Bennett.
Incredible stuff. Good for him.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
So some good news. We have our first special election
of the year. Democrat Mike Zimmer has won the special
election for ias thirty fifth Senate district seat.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
No one helps Democrats more in elections than Donald Trump.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
He is not on the ballot.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Donald Trump is really helpful to Democrats. And that's because
Donald Trump is not a Republican. He is his own thing,
and the people who turn out for him do not
necessarily turn out for regular Republicans. Zimmer will replace a Republican.
It's small, but it's meaningful. A lot of the craziest
shit comes out of the state House, especially in places
(12:22):
like Iowa, so you can dismiss this, but let's not
let's just enjoy that Iowa's thirty fifth Senate district seat
is now held by a Democrat. Data Milbank is a
columnist at The Washington Post and the author of Fools
on the Hell, the Hooligans, Saboteurs, Conspiracy Theorists, and Dances
(12:45):
who Burned Down the House. Welcome Back, Too Fast, Politics,
Data Melbank.
Speaker 5 (12:52):
Thank you, Molly. It is always a pleasure to be
with you.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
I'm so happy to have you here. Before I came here,
I was watching my favorite channel. And I don't just
say this because they actually have gifted me a fleece recently,
but Caesman is my favorite channel as well it should be,
and I was watching it because I'm incredibly old on
my cable television.
Speaker 5 (13:17):
Wow, how does that work?
Speaker 1 (13:18):
If you're over fifty, you know exactly how cable television works.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
But if you're under you do not.
Speaker 8 (13:24):
No.
Speaker 5 (13:24):
I cut the cord myself.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Oh Jesus Christ.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Anyway, Watching the beginning of the hearing, the tanniest person
ever to occupy Washington, DC, someone who really gives Donald
Trump a run for the money. RFK Junior is about
to begin his hearings discuss.
Speaker 7 (13:42):
I'm a little sad because they actually have like ten
columnists writing on it today at the Washington Post. Why
didn't you just hold off for day two and cash
battel tomorrow? I mean, it is sort of an embarrassment
of riches. Truth is, I would rather do the cash
btel one that's going to be Zanier. But man, I
(14:02):
was not expecting Caroline Kennedy to come out the way
she did.
Speaker 5 (14:06):
He's been great entertainment so far, right.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
I mean, it's important not to be a nihilist about this,
but yes, we can enjoy the horror of it to laugh,
to keep from crying, but yes.
Speaker 7 (14:18):
Go on, yes, And then then does he become Secretary
of Health and Human Services and the Avian flu comes
to get us all, and they've imposed a blackout so
we won't actually know what the government is saying about anything.
We've we're pulling out of the WHO, and you know,
withdrawing funding even before we formally pull out of the WHO,
(14:38):
so the whole you know, we sort of paralyzed the
United States government. We're paralyzing the world's public health response,
and we're not getting basic even childhood vaccines here. Although
I guess I guess he's come out for the polio vaccine.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
So yeah, well you got it. I can't imagine why
he's come out for the poli vaccine when going for
a vote in front of someone who has still suffers
from the effects of polio. I guess that he can't
quite say that polio was a hoax yet No.
Speaker 7 (15:11):
And then you know, then of course Trump came out
for these both the vaccine, and you.
Speaker 5 (15:16):
Know with his line, it sounded like Frederick Douglas.
Speaker 7 (15:19):
He's like, yeah, Jonahsock did some great work and he's
being recognized more and more.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Yeah, watching these Republicans and again, look Friday, we saw
this hegseth vote. It was you know, all we have
in Trump world is the sort of history of Trump
one point zero where Democrats were able to prevent Republicans
from doing a lot of the worst stuff, right Like
they wanted to appeal the ACA. They didn't want to
(15:49):
repeal ACA. They wanted to repeal Obamacare. Turns out that
was the same thing. But there were a lot of
tries at doing things, but a lot of stuff they
were they wanted to do, they couldn't do. So now
the whole sort of premise of Trump's second term at
least according to the people behind the scenes who are
writing what little policy there is is to really do
(16:09):
that stuff this time.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
And so that's kind of what we're watching unfold.
Speaker 5 (16:13):
Yes and no, I mean I think it.
Speaker 7 (16:16):
You know, where Democrats blocked Trump the first time was
in Congress. So let's you know, realize. I mean, Congress
hasn't done anything yet. I mean, I guess there's the
Lake and Riley Act, right, which is symbolic, and he'llsale
sign that.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
Right, which is crime's bad.
Speaker 7 (16:30):
Yeah, crime is, crime remains bad. It's just as bad
and maybe even more bad than it was yesterday.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Right, Murdering a very good looking white person especially bad.
Speaker 5 (16:41):
Yes, well you got you got it right.
Speaker 7 (16:43):
You get an extra extra time in the pokey for that,
you know. I mean, what Trump is trying to do
is say, you know, the hell with Congress. I'm going
to act by executive FIAT to do the things I
couldn't do last time. So you know, that's what we've
had so far with these three hundred executive or and actions.
So I mean, none of them is the law of
(17:04):
the land, right, all easily undone eventually, you know, by
a future administration, because it's not legislation, and hopefully a
lot of them to be undone in court. You know,
already his attempt to sign a piece of paper that
eliminates the fourteenth Amendment. And now you see the zany
(17:24):
freeze of everything.
Speaker 9 (17:25):
Three trillion dollars of the federal government. Now that's right, now,
that's that's on hold. So once you know, it's shocking,
it's overwhelming what we've seen over the last ten days
or so, and I think we do need, you know,
not just outrage, but concerned action in terms of court action.
But you know, it has to be remembered at the
(17:47):
same time that there is only so much he can
do by executive order, and he's he's seizing powers that
he doesn't have right now. So presumably that ultimately doesn't last,
and even this frum friendly Supreme Court won't allow it
to happen. Of course, you know, if the Trump friendly
Supreme Court decides you don't actually need a legislative branch
and the president can do whatever he wants, well, then
(18:09):
we're in a different Then we're in a different place.
But you know we'll cross that bridge. Will we get
to it?
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Yeah, the Trump friendly Supreme Court, We're going to do
two minutes on the impoundment stuff.
Speaker 7 (18:18):
Because any any more than that and everybody would stop listening.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Yes, exactly, because not only will you unsubscribe, but you
will block me from your feet. But what I want,
why I want to talk about empowerment is because so
empoundment means there's money that Congress appropriates for things.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
That's how it works.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Congress is theoretically supposed to control the purse. But what
Nixon did, and you'll remember Nixon as the closest thing
to Trump, I do remember, mintion is yes, this was
way before Jesse and I were born, because we're very young. Basically,
he used the money that Congress appropriated as a kind
(18:56):
of carrotenstick for stuff he wanted and favors the kind
of oligarch autocrat shit that they do in Russia. And
now ross vat at omb did this in the first
Trump administration. That's why he got impeached for Ukrain. Now
we're in the second Trump administration. Rusvat is still not
Senate approved yet, though he probably will be because nobody
(19:19):
has any bravery whatsoever. But the question here is will
Republicans be able to impound the money?
Speaker 3 (19:29):
Will they keep it will this law.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
The nineteen seventy four Impoundment Act put to prevent this
put into law to prevent this, will that be upheld?
Or is some of the purpose of this to create
a constitutional crisis, to bring this law up to the
Supreme Court and to assume that Trump's justices will do
what he wants.
Speaker 7 (19:51):
I assume that is what they're up to here. I mean,
you know, to listen to russ vote and his confirmation hearings.
They say, well, you know, he's asked about the Empowerment Act.
I say, well, you know, President Trump says it's unconstitutional
and President Trump campaigned against it. Well, if you campaigned
against it and you won, so I guess that means
you don't have to follow that particular law. So clearly
(20:13):
it's it's they're planning a flagrant violation of the law,
which already has been upheld by the Supreme Court. And
the assumption has to be that this particular Supreme Court
is going to be friendlier. But that's quite a ways
to go. Then why bother giving Congress the purse strings?
If ultimately the president is going to decide which money
will get spent and which money won't get spent.
Speaker 5 (20:35):
But you know, I mean there's a lot of that.
Speaker 7 (20:37):
You know, take saying you know, the law is what
I say it is, whether it's with the impoundment of
the fourteenth Amendment or you know, firing a dozen Inspectors
General without the notice, you know, eliminating career civil servant protections.
I mean, all of this is in flagrant violation of
the law. So clearly they're trying to precipitate either a
(20:59):
constitutionetional crisis or just wiping out laws by you know,
the Supreme Court blessing the wiping out of laws by
this a stroke of the penet of the president.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
Right, there is a real question.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
And I mean I always think that cynicism is the
worst thing we can have here. As much as you
and I are very cynical, there have been times when
this Supreme Court has not completely rubber stamped Donald Trump.
And I'm thinking about the sentencing opinion, right, even though
it was an insane thing to send up to the court,
because the truth is, there's no reason why this man
(21:31):
should not have had to sit for the sentencing. But whatever,
it was still Roberts and Barrett who went with the liberals.
So here's a question for you. If it gets kicked
to the Supreme Court, what do you think that means?
Speaker 7 (21:43):
Well, I'm glad you asked me, because I am a
constitutional scholar. Known to me, I do still hold out
some hope that Barrett and Roberts and even Kavanaugh, you know,
still have some sense of some basic fealty to the
constantutione and are not interested in rewriting things for political purposes,
(22:04):
as say, you know, Alito or Thomas or Gorsuch. Maybe
I guess in the broader sense, yes, that would be
a constitutional crisis, and the impact, of course, would be
devastating if the Supreme Court, you know, sent this country
in an entirely different direction after two centuries.
Speaker 5 (22:20):
I think until we get to.
Speaker 7 (22:22):
That point, which is still pretty far off, what really
matters is not the outrage over he's destroying institutions and
norms and he's precipitating a crisis. What's going to matter
is people are going to say, wait a second, I
voted for this guy to reduce prices, and all he
is doing is picking fights and vengeance and taking away
(22:42):
people's security details. And now he's taking away my medicaid
benefits and meals on.
Speaker 5 (22:49):
Wheels for old folks.
Speaker 7 (22:50):
So that's what's going to matter, is when people see
and head start, Yeah, things going badly for them and
people around them. President not delivering what he was supposed
to do and instead he's all about settling personal scores
and trying to pick fights with the Congress in the
Supreme Court, right, and.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
That I think is that that will be the big question.
So here we are, we have more confirmation hearings. I mean,
Cash Bettel, Tulsea Gabbard, RFK Junior. You know, I saw
rfk's former vice presidential whatever, Nicole Shanahan, doing a video
about how if anyone votes against him, she will fund
(23:30):
primary challengers. We've seen other billionaires do this. As a
favorite of Elon's too, or as we like to think
of him, Leon, what's your take on this? I mean,
does this work? I mean I guess it does, right.
Speaker 7 (23:42):
Yes, but it's sort of you know, redundant. I mean,
you know, there's already automatic primary challenges to anybody who
defies Trump for anything, so they don't need any additional
funding from Nicole Shanahan or Elon Musk or anybody else,
you know, So I think those threats are kind of ludicrous.
I mean, there already is lockstep discipline, or at least
there has been so far. I mean, look, you could
(24:02):
have knocked me over with a feather when McConnell actually
voted against xact or maybe he knew that he was
going through anyway.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
I'm going to stop you for a minute because you
are a real DC person. And again and everyone who's
so cynicals like, oh McConnell, whatever he knew, I don't
think he knew.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
First of all, I think that.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Tillis was a no until they went and talked to
him for two hours.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
God knows what they said to him.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
The fact that he's voting against nominees I think is
really meaningful. Say more about why you think it's meaningful.
Speaker 7 (24:31):
Well, because for ten years now, I've been thinking, oh,
this is the moment when McConnell will actually stand up
to Trump when it matters. At each time it's been
you know, Charlie Brown in the football. So I mean,
maybe it didn't matter this time since it was going
through anyway, But.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
It's meaningful because McConnell was the leader, and like mcconnald's
vote means more than a regular center vote.
Speaker 7 (24:55):
Yeah, I suppose, or maybe it means more in public.
I mean, he's been so discredited in Maga eyes as
you know, the old crow. I'm not actually sure it
matters that much to the Trump faithful.
Speaker 5 (25:07):
But look, it's a numbers game.
Speaker 7 (25:08):
And if you got Murkowski and Collins are somewhat more
reliable no on the most zany outrages and abuses, and
if McConnell, then all right, you're down to your tiebreaker.
And then you know who's the next guy who's going
to develop a spine? It may it looked like that
on the hegseth. That might be Tom Tillsey even had
(25:30):
what was it his excess. Former sister in law urged
her to come out publicly because he said that could
tilt the balance. She comes out publicly and he still votes.
Thanks a lot, dude.
Speaker 5 (25:42):
So you know, will he grow a spine or a pair?
Speaker 7 (25:47):
As they say, I'll be pleasantly surprised when I see it.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Yeah, But I mean I do think it's meaningful. And
again I understand that I'm the boy whistling in the
dark to keep myself from being afraid.
Speaker 5 (25:57):
But this is all we have that's right, Well, on
to something.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
So the frozen federal budget is now there's a court injunction.
We're going to see that play out. We've got more hearings.
I mean, what else are you watching here?
Speaker 5 (26:12):
It's a little bit of ADHD. I should try to
focus on anything.
Speaker 7 (26:15):
I mean, yeah, I mean last week I was focusing
on Trump not seeming to know what his own administration
is doing, and clearly his press secretary doesn't know either.
I'm focusing more on his vengeance this week. She seems great,
by the way, Oh she's brilliant. Yeah, yeah, just yet
another really, I mean, just another star in the making.
(26:37):
I threw in a line about her wearing a purple
jacket and across of the type most commonly seen repelling vampires,
and I thought I would get a lot more blowback
than I did.
Speaker 5 (26:48):
But you know, people are anti vampire.
Speaker 7 (26:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (26:51):
I mean what I'm watching for.
Speaker 7 (26:53):
Is I alluded to a moment ago is where he's
actually doing things that are going to hurt people, forcing
up prices, shuttering programs, precipitating international crises, you know, things
that people are going to notice and feel in their
lives and say, hey, wait a second, this is not
what I voted for. That's what's it's going to matter,
(27:13):
because you know, the election unfortunately, did prove that for
a lot of people, you know, talking about he's destroying
our constitutional system and our democracy.
Speaker 5 (27:22):
It just didn't wash for them.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Yeah, I mean that is that fundamental problem with Trump,
isn't which is when you try to explain that he's
planning on doing all this stuff, people would be like, well,
he didn't do it last time.
Speaker 5 (27:34):
Yeah, right, because he tried and he couldn't.
Speaker 7 (27:36):
But it looks like he may well be able to
get a lot of this done this time, you know,
and in a sense like yeah, you know, the federal
judge saved him from himself with this you know, temporary
to till February third, whatever, you know, suspension of the
of the pause, the pause and the pause. But you know,
I mean at some point, yeah, they're going to stop
the head start and meals on wheels and medicaid or
(27:58):
some equivalent crisis, and people are going to actually say,
wait a second, this is not what I thought I
was getting.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
Right exactly, this is not what I thought I was getting.
Dana Melbank.
Speaker 5 (28:07):
I hope he'll come back anytime.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Molly Alex Wagner is the host of MSNBC's Trump Land
with Alex Wagner. Welcome to Fast Politics, Alex Wagner, thank
you for having me.
Speaker 10 (28:21):
Molly John passed.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
I'm so excited. I'm thrilled you're doing this really interesting thing.
Explain to us what you're doing now.
Speaker 10 (28:29):
Well, listen.
Speaker 11 (28:30):
I think when Trump was reelected there was thinking that, like,
we got to do something differently this time. We got
to be eggrective in our coverage. We got to look
under each stone, and there are many stones. But we
also need to be enterprising in terms of what we're
covering because obviously Trump is the master of distraction and
there's really important stuff that happens that we often don't
get it to really talk about our analyze because we're
(28:52):
dealing with a daily onslaught of controversy. So we have
the inimitable Rachel Mattow sitting at the desk five days
a week, and we have me out in a country
reporting on the big stories of each week and talking
to people that honestly, you don't usually see on television,
having conversations that you don't normally hear on television. And
the idea is we got to do something differently, like
(29:13):
I said, and we're going to be as tenacious and
as aggressive and as you know, resourceful as the moment demand.
Speaker 10 (29:19):
So that's what I've been doing.
Speaker 11 (29:20):
And like I started last week outside of DC jail
talking to January sixth inmates, and this week I've been
speaking to migrants who are working to know their rights
and figure out a strategy and a battle plan for
mass deportation, which seems to be very clearly at the
top of the President's list of things to do.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
So I have a lot of questions.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
First, I want you to talk about the January sixth
talking to those people, because that is a really interesting
group that I mean, and I don't mean this to
elevate them, because I know there's a lot of really
problematic stuff for the larger like four democracy, But I'm
wondering if you could talk just a little bit about
(30:00):
what it was like with the group out there and
sort of what their expectations were and what their feelings
were about Donald Trump.
Speaker 11 (30:07):
Yeah, I mean, I wanted to have the conversations with
them because I think it's important to know the sort
of to understand the stories of the people who are
at the center of the news, and I was eager
to hear first of all their thoughts about Trump and
also kind of like where their allegiance stands now that
they're free, because I think a lot of people wonder
how Trump is going to carry out some of his
(30:28):
most draconian plans. You know, standard of lawlessness or lawfulness
is and they are a great bell weather for that.
So you know, the first thing that struck me. I mean,
perhaps it's not surprising that they are so intensely loyal
to Donald Trump in a way that I think eclipses
even their sense of allegiance on January six. Like, I
talked to one father who had two children in jail.
(30:50):
He himself was also there at January six, and he
said to me, with tears in his eyes, I would
die for this now.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
So they don't feel like Trump put them in this position.
Speaker 11 (30:58):
No, And I told you a woman who was involved
in the riot and was pardoned by President Trump. She said,
I don't understand why I was ever in jail. And
Anthony Fauci and Liz Cheney warrant, Oh wow. The sort
of conspiracy theory narratives that have been spun around prominent
resistance figures and resistance is like does people who are
still tethered to reality and care about the future of
(31:20):
a you know, our American democracy. That sort of poison
is like deep in the veins, especially for January six ers,
even though they may have been in you know, federal
kind of tenuries during the like most of the last
couple of years. They are angry, but they are also
intensely hopeful about what President Trump can establish and accomplish,
(31:42):
and they're ready to go for him. I mean, I
asked a number of them, if he asks you to
go do something, will you go do it? And almost
to a person, they said, hell, yeah, Like he hasn't
given up on us. We would never give up on him.
The other thing is so speaking Molly, is so many
of them have talked directly with Trump. Either they were
at mar A Lago, you know, if they were family
members of Jason, or they've spoken on the phone to
him numerous times. I mean, as a matter of like
(32:04):
constituent outreach. Donald Trump is a machine. Like the fact
that this guy has focused so much of his attentions
on this group of people should tell you a lot
about how important they are to him. In his second presidency, and.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
If we look historically at autocrats who craft their own
militias or their own it never.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
Ends well, you never want an autocrat.
Speaker 10 (32:29):
To have a bunch an army, right.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
De facto army.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
That is never a good sign for democratic norms.
Speaker 11 (32:38):
Well, and it's not just the fifteen hundred people he
pardoned or community the sentences of it's the signal that's
sent to any other militia member. I mean, I talked
to militia memories before the twenty twenty election who may
not have actually been there on January sixth, but were
inclined to think about extra judicial solutions to a broken
government or a broken.
Speaker 10 (32:56):
You know, election. They you know, there are a lot
of people.
Speaker 11 (32:59):
Who weren't active around January sixth, but have been entranced
by Maggot in the intervening years. And like the pardoning
is a huge signal to all of them that if
you do Trump spitting, he's got your back.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
Yeah. No, I think that's right.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
And that is, if you think about it, quite worrying
for any number of reasons. And the fact that they
consider themselves to be sort of the bizarro doctor Fauci
is just can you talk me through that?
Speaker 11 (33:26):
Thinking, they believe that there are actors who are trying
to destroy the country. I mean, this is where the
q Andon like the snake, the q Andon snake begins
eating the Maga tail right right, the like there was
no mention of pizza.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
Game, right. Oh, well, that's something, you know.
Speaker 11 (33:42):
The vast conspiracy that exists in the deep state is
something they absolutely believe in. They believe, to a person
that the twenty twenty election was stolen. I asked a
number of them, well, if twenty twenty was stolen, why
we let him win in twenty twenty four, and they said,
because it was too big to rig. His margin was
just too big to rig, and that's the only reason
the system wasn't set up against him. But they believe that,
you know, Lias Cheney is a trader. I mean, they
(34:03):
believe that Mark Milly is a trader. They believe that
Anthony Fauci is the architect of our national despair. And
the question is the degree to which Trump sort of
tries to point them in that direction and actually calls
for them to do something to those people. I mean,
of course I hope that never happens, but it seemed
to me that a number of them were ready to
do what you know, they needed to do because this
(34:24):
was bigger than just them, This was bigger than jail time.
This was a central part of what they understood to
be their American identity, which is wild.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
You know it's wild, right, I think that's really important.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
We interviewed this academic who I'm kind of obsessed with
at Harvard called Thetis Scotch Paul, and she was talking
about how often post a pandemic people will have a
certain amount of memory holding, like they just won't be
able to keep the memory of the experience in their
head because it's so traumatic. How does that make sense
(34:55):
with this just like amateur psychiatrists for me, for a second.
Speaker 10 (35:00):
Gary, amateur, Like didn't go to med.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
School, I didn't even go to college.
Speaker 10 (35:04):
So well, but you're you're what is it, You're naturally brilliant.
Speaker 11 (35:09):
I'm not sure, but anyway, yeah, listen, I totally agree.
I feel like so much of our national unpacking needs
to happen around COVID because I do think it's like
a lacuna and people were filled with so much rage
and loneliness and despair and it compounded. And I really
believe this you know what Vivick Murphy, the Surgeon General,
(35:31):
once called like at the epidemic of loneliness and what
you know, Michael, there's so many people that sees on
this this is all connected, right. People feel alone, they
feel disconnected from community. They're angry about their their particular situation,
whether economically, culturally, financially, socially whatever, and they look for
an outlet for that, and for these kind of jan
sixers and so the Maga diehards. I think COVID was
(35:52):
this incredible inflection point where they had no outlet for
the loneliness, They had no one to turn to, and
here comes a strong man suggesting that all of this
is a fabrication. That all of the pain that they
felt and that they've gone through and that lies ahead
for them, can you know, be either erased or vanished
from the horizon if they just believe in him. I mean,
I think it also speaks to the decline of like
(36:14):
religion in this country, like are you know, the public
spare has gone away and people just want to believe
in someone and something and Trump, you know, sort of
I think the dawn of perhaps the most the more
poisonous stage of Trump ism that coincided with the COVID pandemic,
and I just think that there's a lot that that
(36:35):
stirred up, that there's a direct line you can draw
between the sort of venomous force of MAGA and what
everybody went through during the COVID pandemic.
Speaker 10 (36:44):
I mean, you know, like I think all of.
Speaker 11 (36:46):
Us liberals, centrists and you know, conservatives, we've all had
to kind of move past it in a way because
life goes on, right.
Speaker 10 (36:53):
But it was intensely scarring.
Speaker 11 (36:55):
I mean, and you know people who lost their loved
ones in the hospitals and had to say goodbye on zoom.
I mean, these are dehumanizing moments that the just being
apart from each other, which is against the natural order
of humanity. I mean, we haven't come to terms, I think,
with just absolutely how disruptive and devastating those those several
years were.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
You know, it's as you're talking about this, what I'm
struck by is I was on Morning Joe, not that
we're doing MSPR here, but we can, but we can.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
There's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
I was talking to Read Hoffman and he was saying, like,
AI is going to be so great, and I was like,
you know, it seems like there's going to be unintended consequences.
Can you talk about the unintended consequences? Because that's something
that is really right at the top of my mind
when we talk about Trump is because they're always you know,
move fast and break things, means you actually break things.
Speaker 3 (37:49):
And I said him, what are the unintended consequences?
Speaker 1 (37:51):
And he was like, well, after the printing press there
was you know, one hundred years of war, and I
just was thinking about how advances, how these terrifying unintended consequences.
Though I think with the Rioters this is actually an
intended consequence.
Speaker 11 (38:07):
Yeah, I mean I think we underestimate how cathartic ragees.
You know, having an enemy to pin your disappointments on
can be just a hugely relieving thing, you know, and
if you're living with pain or you're living in a
dark place, I mean there is something to be said
for like you go, I've been to a number of
(38:28):
Trump rallies, right, yeah, and they take on the air
of a religious revival, right they fill this hole. And
I mean, like not to get super like therapy on you,
but like there is something incredibly intoxicating about anger, right,
It's like a fueling feeling. And yeah, like I just
I feel like after a period of hurt, whether it's
just COVID or the preceding years, to just be able
(38:51):
to live in a state of rage, can be electrified.
Speaker 10 (38:53):
And I think that's part of the appeal here.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
Yeah, I think that's right.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
And I also think it's so interesting talk to me
about the next week. You go to a radically different
place with a radically different group of people.
Speaker 3 (39:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 11 (39:06):
Well, I mean, I think the idea is to get
into the muscle of all of this because we taught
so much of the consequences and the players. All that
exists in the abstract. So we talk about immigration, We
hear about these immigration rates as like what's going on
with the immigrants?
Speaker 9 (39:22):
You know?
Speaker 10 (39:22):
And what I found was just an extraordinary amount of fear.
Speaker 4 (39:26):
You know.
Speaker 11 (39:26):
I talk to a number of people who are terrified
and maybe keeping their children home from school. They don't
know what their future next week is. But I also
found a community of people who are trying to understand
what their constitutional rights are. There's a series of seminars
called no Your Rights the Borders Are. Tom Holman calls
them how to escape arrest seminars, but they're run by
various community groups, and they're these kind of workshops where
(39:48):
immigrants go, they can ask questions, they get kind of
a strategy for how to deal with ICE agents if
they come in and try and arrest them. And you know,
they do what is called a role playing exercise where
one migrant will be the migrant and one will be
the ICE agent, and they kind of do this acting
exercise effectively to run through, did you a dry run
a test run of what it would be like to
(40:09):
be on the verge of deportation?
Speaker 10 (40:11):
And it was so.
Speaker 11 (40:12):
Fascinating, Molly, because on some level, these people are confronting
their greatest fear right, it's very scenario that their life
in America is on the precipice of ending right and
shattering everything that they've built. And the other level, they're
confronting it right most directly and in that way that
this is like one long therapy session.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
No, it's good, I feel very very helpful to me anyway,
go on.
Speaker 11 (40:33):
Yet, confronting your fears is a way of gaining.
Speaker 10 (40:37):
Strength and feeling empowered.
Speaker 11 (40:39):
And what you would see in the course of these
workshops is that people would start to laugh and people
started engaging, and they felt like they were united as one,
and they felt like you know when you look fear
right in the eye and say, Okay, I got this,
I can do this.
Speaker 10 (40:50):
I know what I'm going to do. I have a plan.
Speaker 11 (40:53):
It's the only way to manage what is right now,
especially an unmanageable, chaotic and totally unprettict situation. Right like
people don't know whether they can go to the grocery store,
and ge don't know whether the kids can go to school.
They're just like they're terrified. But if you can say
I know what I'm going to do, you know, it's
like stop, drop and roll. It's like this is the
order of things. It offers some sense of empowerment, it
(41:16):
offers sense of agency, and it was like, actually a
totally remarkable thing to see how this group of very
marginalized people who are largely under assault from the Trump
administration is managing this moment of profound fear. And in
a lot of ways it was weirdly hopeful, right Like
nobody's suggesting they're not going to get deported, but just
in terms of the human struggle, looking at the resilience
(41:37):
of these people, right, the people who worked their butts
off to come to America and continue to work their
butts off as the economic backbone, and who want to
stay in America to continue to contribute to society and
say almost to a person, we still love this place,
we still believe in this place, we believe we are equal,
and we know we have rights. It was really like
an extraordinary experience to see how they're coping with this moment.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
I mean, there is hope in this And I also
think that the stories of people and their real experience
are the only way we can get into what's actually happening,
because you know, the statistics don't really tell the story
that people know.
Speaker 10 (42:12):
No, they did. Yeah, And also I think it's really important.
Speaker 11 (42:15):
The right has a very well oiled like social media
machine and messaging machine around getting the garbage out, which
is what the arkham Mansecurity Secretary called undocumented migrants in
this country, and like the left has largely I think
because they were cowed by the twenty twenty four election results.
They feel like they don't have their immigration platform worked out.
But the vitriol that's coming from the right, the mischaracterization
(42:37):
of who these people are is being met with utter
silence on the left, and so honestly it's left to
the media to go and say, oh, but this is
actually who these people are.
Speaker 10 (42:45):
They are not there.
Speaker 11 (42:46):
I mean, it's a vanishing percentage that are actually violent criminals.
This majority of these people are people that are making
the country hup. And it's important to remind everybody of
the real actual narrative here and not what Trump and
his allies would have you believe.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
Let's have two seconds on Tom Holman, because this guy
is such an interesting character and what he's doing right
now is absolutely atrocious. But he comes from Obama world, right,
I mean, he has had this strange transition he was retired.
Speaker 11 (43:18):
Yeah, I think there's something that happens when you're in
a kind of incarceratory position.
Speaker 10 (43:25):
Where in order to do the work.
Speaker 11 (43:27):
You kind of need to dehumanize the people that you
are arresting and incarcerating. You have to begin to look
at them as the enemy that needs to be caught.
I mean, I think that's just kind of a natural
progression of things, right, I mean, I think cops sometimes
have to de humanize people. They have to think in
blanket terms, like I'm sure prison guards kind of do
the same thing, and I think if.
Speaker 10 (43:46):
Your borders are you often do that.
Speaker 11 (43:49):
The issue with Holman is he seems to have drunk
from the fountain of Maga, and the dehumanization has taken
on a level of cruelty and sort of like shamelessness.
It is a stunning portrait of like our darker selves. Right,
there's a zeal for capture and enthusiasm for punishment and
a wartlessness that seems really like a byproduct of someone
(44:13):
who's I don't know. It's gotten very dark in tom
Home and Land in the intervening years between Obama and
it's I think unfortunate that we have someone so seemingly
incapable of seeing the humanity in these people, who's running
the entire program.
Speaker 10 (44:25):
I mean, I think the same of Stephen Miller too.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
Yes, Steven Miller. Find someone who loves you, like Steven
Miller hates immigrants. Thank you so much, Alex, really appreciate you,
and may till you want to come back and talk
about your report.
Speaker 3 (44:39):
It would be really great.
Speaker 10 (44:40):
I will come back whenever you'll have me.
Speaker 8 (44:42):
Molly, no moment, Andon Jesse Cannon, So Molly, yesterday we
got a first taste of a press briefing by Caroline Lovett, and.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
The taste was Korean from the northern region of the
region in my Tastes.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
Carolyn Levitt, Trump's new press secretary for as long as
she lasts, did a lot of the kind of stuff
we saw previous Trump press secretaries do whenever they would
have press briefings, which was not that often. You know,
it's funny because it's like, I think of all the
people in Trump World, like, will she end up going
against Trump and will I end up interviewing her on
(45:27):
this podcast or will she go along with and end
up on Fox News. It's a real choose your own
adventure for Carolyn Levitt. She is at this job to
humiliate the press, to elevate right wing figures, to spread lies,
to be hostile. You know, she has this job for
(45:49):
one reason, right, So we shouldn't be surprised, you know,
this is what happens and so but she is our
moment of fun Gray.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
Can I make a third wager on where she ends up? Yeah?
This is my wild card televangelist.
Speaker 3 (46:05):
Very nice, not impossible.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in
every Monday Wednesday Thursday and Saturday to hear the best
minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If
you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend
and keep the conversation going.
Speaker 3 (46:27):
Thanks for listening.
Host
Molly Jong-Fast
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.