July 2, 2025 • 30 mins
New York Magazine’s Bridget Read details her new book Little Bosses Everywhere: How the Pyramid Scheme Shaped America. Journalist E. Jean Carroll examines her new book Not My Type.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,
where we discussed the top political headlines with some of
today's best minds. We are on vacation, but that doesn't
mean we don't have a great show for you. Today.
Journalist Ejeene Carroll stops by to talk about her new
book Not My Type. But first we have New York
Magazine's Bridget read on her new book, Little Boss Is
(00:25):
Everywhere How the pyramid scheme shaped America.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Welcome to Fast Politics, Bridget.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Thanks so much for having me explain to us what
you write on and where you got to.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
With this book and how you got here.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
I am a features writer at New York Magazine right now.
I primarily write about housing for Curbs, which is part
of New York mag I started this book when I
was a writer at The Cut, which is New York
magas women's vertical. That's how I sort of was introduced
to this concept of multile marketing, which is very similar,
if not the same, as the pyramid scheme. And I
(01:00):
wrote a really short article in twenty twenty one about
MLMs and just kind of being obsessed from there, and
that's where this book was born.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
MLMs, I feel like they're tied to both women's entrepreneurship
in a strange and destructive way and also to maga politics.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Yeah, so they're really interesting because they are the sleazy
foundation to many of the things we're looking at right
now and right here. So i'd love you to talk
first because you come from the cut about the women's
ish world of MLOUS, and then I'm going to get
you into maga worlds. But I could see how there's
(01:44):
a sort of natural progression here, so talk us through it.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Yeah. So MLM was invented by men in the post
war era scammy salesman who decided that they were going
to create this basically what functions as a Ponzi scheme,
but within the sort of shell of door to door selling,
which is like, you know, an age old American pastime.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Give us an example of a company that does that.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Oh sure, so the oldest one is Amway. The guys
that invented MLM did it with a company and a
vitamin company called Neutralite. Richard DeVos and Jamian andl who
founded Amway. They started as Neutralite salesmen and then they
did what always happens in MLM, which is they picked
up all their distributors and started their own company, which
is Amway. In the late fifties. Amway is the biggest
(02:31):
and most influential MLM in the world. There's also herbal Life,
There's Mary Kay, There's Shackley Tupperware. I could go on
and on. There are hundreds thousands of MLMs now in
the US alone. So even though it was invented by
men very quickly five sixties, women who went to work
(02:51):
in droves during World War Two, and then even though
those levels fell back down after the war, steadily during
the fifties and sixties, more women started going to work,
and of course that rose from there. But what happened
was women statistically went predominantly to industries where the work
wasn't great right, work was insecure. They were secretaries, they
(03:13):
were doing retails, the service sector where you're not big benefits,
you're not doing typical wage work, and you are also
in many respects still doing your childcare. So this need
for flexible work and women being the primary recipient of
a pitch for flexible work, which is what a huge
part of MLM is. It's the idea that you're an
(03:33):
independent contractor, so already by the sixties, women became predominantly
the people who work in multiple marketing, and of course
the industry all then began touting itself as like an
opportunity for women, but always the conservative The industry is
really conservative politically and in terms of its gender ideology.
So from the get go, MLM is a type of
(03:55):
flexible work where women can walk a line right where
they're contributing to the household, but not in a way
that threatens their roles as wives and mothers. Mary Kay
is the most notable founder of an MLM, and she
was a huge part in kind of selling that story,
and there are many copies of it since, and we
could trace a line all the way to current MLMs
(04:17):
where women are girl bosses. They're wearing the oversized blazer
and doing the TikTok videos, but they're also you know,
it's all about, Oh, I retired my husband who's a
Christian firefighter, and I serve him still.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
So you can do both.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
It's really a way to like sublimate women's ambition, sublimate
their economic fears, but do it in a way that
does it threaten the overall you know, nuclear family structure.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Yes, So now get us talking about how these multi
level marketing schemes have popped up in MAGA world.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
The roots of MLM in the Republican Party are beyond deep.
Even before Rich DeVos and Javannandel. Rich Davas of course,
being Betsy Davas's father in law, the founders of multi
level marketing were connected to the Republican Party in California.
They supported Nixon.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
A lot of Republican money comes from multi level marketing.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Yes, That's really what I tried to emphasize in this
book is the MLM money should be as scrutinized as
the empires of the Kochs the Mercers. Right, the money
that's actually been taken from these participants has powered the
Republican Party for decades. I mean, Devas and Van Andel
are the single biggest Republican donors. When Ronald Reagan is
(05:36):
running for president, Ronald Reagan makes Devas a member of
his kitchen cabinet. Javan Andl is the head of the
Chamber of Commerce. They both give heavily to Heritage, And
now right now the chairman of the board at Heritage
is Barb Van Andl. Gabby javan Andl's daughter I mean,
it goes on and on. They give heavily to the
Council for National Policy Focus on the Family. So these
(05:58):
are some dark money Christian groups. Betsy Debas, you know,
very notably resigned in the wake of January sixth and
made a big deal about it, but they continue to
give to all the packs and organizations that helped re
elect Trump, including the very scary Sheriff Fellowship, which is
you know, at Claremont Institute, group that wants to essentially
radicalize share its to use them to carry out Trump's
(06:21):
deportation dreams, but also just like to stop enforcing law
and order where Trump doesn't lot it to be enforced.
They're huge on school vouchers. So there are major engines
of both the economic forces of mega but also those
culture war goals. They've been shaping it long before we
even knew sort of Betsy Devas as a figure. You know,
(06:44):
it's bigger than that. There are other figures in this
industry that have been part of our political world, but
the Amway founders are certainly the most influential.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Right, let's talk for a minute about what we have
in the MAGA multi level marketing. What are they quote
unquote selling like Mary Kay is makeup, Amway is agriculture.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Amway is everything. In Amway, you're encouraged to replace your
entire household products with Amway products. So they sell toothpaste,
they sell an energy drink, Cold Access, they have their
own makeup brand called Artistry, And like, the reason you've
never heard of it is because MLMs are overwhelmingly closed
systems where the participants are buying up this stuff, because
(07:27):
that's how you really make the most money is just
by buying and buying and getting people under you to
be buying. And there are lots of people in my
book who talk about how they're encouraged by this stuff.
You're going to sell it. You have to like use,
you know, use the products that you want to sell.
They're encouraged to sign up for subscriptions, whether they're spending
like four hundred dollars a month on an automated Amway purchase.
(07:49):
The intersection of MAGA, especially the MAHA part of MAGA,
the wellness part and MLM is really strong because many
many of the products it's totally nonsensical MLM it makes sense,
like why would you go buy a toothpaste from Amway?
When you can go get it at Dwayne Reid for
you know, half the price. It never has made any
sense even when it was invented, So they really rely
(08:11):
on a pitch that taps into your fears, It taps
into your worries about your health, and it taps into these.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
MAHA makes a lot of sense for that, Yeah, exactly, like.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
You're you're sick in ways you don't even know, and
here's the way we can fix your gut biome or
all these you know, like pseudo science, untested science. MLM
is a perfect vessel for that because it relies on
this like over the top pitch that we're going to
change your life, which the supplement industry also does, and
so you know, the kind of Joe Rogan style supplement
(08:43):
world also has a lot of overlap with MLMs, So
they're the men's version as well, where men are you know,
getting in into that. And then the crypto side of MAGA,
so Trump's cryptoquin World, Liberty Financial, some of the guys
involved in running that have dipped their toe in the world,
but also just Trump in general, I mean, and Trump
of himself of course, has been the face of two MLMs,
(09:06):
one called Ideal Health and then ACN, which was the
lawsuit against Trump that was dropped.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Wait what ideal Health.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
In the early two thousands or mid two thousands, actually,
Trump was tapped to be the face of an MLM
called Ideal Health, and they sold supplements and they called
it the Trump Network. It was literally described as like
an emergency way that for people who were suffering in
the financial crisis and the Great Recession to like become millionaires.
He reaped a lot of benefit from it, and of
(09:35):
course it collapsed and lots of people said they lost money.
But Trump in general, the way he built his career
is very MLM esque in that MLM relies on promotion.
It's all about promoting the lifestyle that you have and
making it sound like that's as if you're it's because
Amway or whatever MLM you're doing is such a like
incredibly special secret recipe for success. It can't be beat.
(09:58):
It's almost you know, as it's a it's a revolutionary invention.
But what you're really doing is just all you're making
all your money from people other people buying in which,
of course is what Trump has done his whole career. Right,
He's never really been a successful businessman. He's a you know,
a litany of real estate failures. He's propped up by
his father, who himself is propped up by tax evasion.
(10:18):
But he sells this idea that he's an incredible businessman.
And so millions of Americans for decades have bought into
the Trump thing, whether it's you know, buying his his
success systems or going to his failed university. They are
failing and they are losing their investments. But Trump is winning,
and that's that's really the multiple marketing meachanism at its core.
(10:38):
So it's incredibly trumpy. MLM is Trumpian, and Trump is
very MLMI.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
With the MAHA stuff.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Does RFK Junior benefit from my multi level marketing besides
just being someone who is involved in it.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
RFK Junior, as far as ener, doesn't benefit directly from
an MLM, but many of his prominence followers, especially online
and especially these women who are in the anti vax world,
also dabble in multi level marketing. They sell these products
that claim to you know, these are these are people
who got online during the pandemic and just like Trump,
you know, said you can take these supplements, you can
(11:17):
do these you know, additives to your water and they
will keep you from getting sick. So so there are
definitely promoters within MLM who are big RFK supporters.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
And you know, yeah, who are those people.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
They're not public figures, they're not people in that U no, no, no, no, okay.
But I would say the number one MLM promoter within
MAHA is doctor Oz. Doctor Oz has shilled for several
m lms. He appears as as a speaker. You know,
kaid probably hundreds of thousands of dollars to do that
over the years, and doctor Oz has has certainly went
(11:52):
his name to many MLMs in the past.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
So explain to us sort of what when you're looking
at these mL they.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Just the goal is just to keep going. What's the goal? Yes,
just to keep going and to stay out of jail.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Yeah, that hasn't been that hard for them because really
enforcement of any kind of I mean, they exist in
a very deeply unregulated space. Mway essentially bought its political
cover in the late seventies and those rules that have
never really been tested are what allow companies to keep
the business model. So as long as they sort of
(12:28):
purport to be using these rules in place that keep
them from being a pyramid scheme. There's virtually no enforcement
of this that unless the FTC what they're doing is
really really scammy. And the apt SEE has gone after
certainly less than one hundred posibly even less than fifty
MLMs since the seventies in terms of actually suing them
and shutting them down. Yeah, I mean not one pyramid scheme.
Multiple marketing company was shut down during Reagan and butsch
(12:51):
one during Bush two they started up a little bit,
and then in the Clinton administration. But even during the
herbal Life lawsuit when the FTC suit urbal Life, and
that was that whole Bill Ackman saga where Bill Ackman
came out and wanted to short urban life. This is
in twenty eleven, twenty twelve. When the FTC finally sued
Herbalife in twenty sixteen, they immediately crafted a settlement with
(13:14):
the company Erbalife had hired the Desta Group. This is
a bipartisan situation where people you know, on both sides
of the political spectrum have involved themselves with MLM Rbalife
also or am why I believe us boys Schiller at
one point. So you know, these are big corporate companies.
Melan Albright was a spokesperson for Erbal Life for many years.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Yeah, yes, that's so bad, bad and a good example
of you can be on the wrong side of history
and it doesn't matter what party you're in. Right, there's
no world in which any of this is opay.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
And MLMs get by because they're incredibly complicated in terms
of the way they figured out how to talk with
the business model. Like the way I explained the business
model to you is not how they explain it, right.
They make it sound the lot like it's door to
door selling, which to a lot of people is very
like old timey and American, and so you're like, how
could there be anything wrong with this? And because they
are old, they're from the early fifties, we are sort
(14:09):
of trapped in the legal precedent that was set during
the fifties and sixties and seventies, And so there's a
lot keeping MLMs from being understood in the way that
I think they should be understood, Like I think the
Amway family should be treated like the Sacklers in terms
of the harm that they've done on the world. Because
the majority of MLM participants are worldwide. Most most MLM
(14:30):
participants are not in the US anymore. So there's millions
of people here, but there's many more millions around the world.
And you can imagine how much if you're in a
country with way, way less of GDP than the United States,
the idea that you can buy in for a small
amount of money and become a millionaire is is going
to like sweep you up in India or in China
or wherever you are. So yeah, I mean that there's
(14:52):
a lot there's a lot of history that I tried
to pull apart in my book to make people understand, like, yes,
the Betsy Devas, we can critique a lot of her
views right now, but nobody really talks about like where
does her money come from? Betsy Devas's brother is Eric Prince.
So these two kind of Michigan dynasties that are hugely
(15:14):
influential in our modern far right party.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
And profoundly sketchy.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Yeah, and both really like what MLM does is it's
an engine of propaganda that I really find, ultimately at
the end of the day, anti democratic. It's all about
enrolling people in an exploitative and harmful system and using
basically cult tactics to keep their noses to the grindstone,
keep telling them it's going to get better. Keep going,
(15:41):
keep going. You know you're doing it. You want to
do it by yourself. You can do it as an individual.
You don't need government benefits. The government makes you a slave.
And that capitalism works best with no regulation and no
rules like that's what MLM you propagates on the on
a grassroots level. And truly the aim of how MLM
has operated in tandem with ideology is to get to
(16:04):
a place where there really is no one keeping capital,
the forces of capital corporations accountable, that they can truly
do whatever they want. That is what MLM would love,
because of course there's a lot of evidence that MLM's
fraud and so they don't want the FTC, they don't
want consumer protection, they don't want state ags to be empowered.
(16:25):
You know, they would love to simply operate in a
wild West, which, of course is like you can see
it in Doge right now, right, you know, which of
course is getting so much of it's blueprint from Heritage. Heritage,
which is very much a project of multiple marketing. So
not to sound like I have a tinfoil hat on,
but it feels like a conspiracy, because it really is.
(16:45):
If you look at the evidence.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
You don't sound tinfoil Hattie at all. Thank you, bridget Read,
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
E Gene Carrol is a journalist and the author of
the new book Not My Type. Welcome back to Fast Politics,
Eagan Carroll, Molly my Darling, Hellottle friend. So let us
talk about this book. I have it right here, Not
My Type. It was a total secret, this book. No
one knew about it. You kept it secret secret. Talk
(17:18):
to us about how this happened and where you wrote
this book.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Also, I love Donald Trump's blurb.
Speaker 4 (17:25):
Yeah, we got Donald Trump to blurb the book.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
I don't know who she is. So let's talk about
this book.
Speaker 4 (17:30):
I love talking about the book. Molly. I'm eighty one
and I'm been a magazine writer for the last fifty years.
I was put into the middle of a highly comic situation,
surrounded with characters that not even Molly John Fast could create,
each one more surreal and more hilarious and more frightening
(17:53):
and more stupendous than the last. And as an old
time journalist, I could not help myself. I had to
get it down now. It was saint Martin's who decided
we will keep the book secret. And Molly, when you
and I know that when we have a secret, we
become very powerful. So we kept every sentenced secret. And
(18:15):
I just I had that golden nugget inside of me,
that secrecy. I knew stuff that he didn't know. I
was going to explode what really went on behind the
scenes and this, you know, the high comedy. He has
never been treated this way, and we kept it under wraps.
And that's what we did. And Molly, we pulled it off.
(18:36):
I mean we pulled it off.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
I know because I was there on Morning Joe the
day you revealed that you had done it.
Speaker 4 (18:42):
Did you anchor again? Today?
Speaker 1 (18:44):
I did the view today, I'm doing Morning Joe tomorrow.
Speaker 4 (18:47):
How was the view good?
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Those ladies are really cool?
Speaker 4 (18:50):
Now? How did I know you did TV today? Because
you have on full makeup, full makeup. The lips give
you away. I should have guessed the view, should have
guessed the view. That's perfect for you. Well, the morning
I did Morning Joe and you were the anchor, that
was the morning you hit the best seller list. Yes,
so I didn't even want to talk about my book.
I was more excited that your book hit the best
(19:12):
seller list. Yes, poor Molly, you look like you'd been
hit by an arrow because your whole interview went south
because I opened it by saying, you know, let's not
talk about this my life. Congratulations for the best seller.
So that's not my type. Just hit the best seller list,
I know, number two. This is what happens when you
keep something secret.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
It was during the trial that you decided you were
going to write this down, right, Well, Molly.
Speaker 4 (19:39):
I was writing down the whole time. When I returned
my hotel room during this day, I would open up,
I'd take my phone and I'd open it and I'm
just talking to it, every single detail. Everything we were eating,
what Joe Takapina was, where hall Aleena Hobbs hair was
that day? Was it long? Was it short? Was she
wearing the huge diamond ring? Come on this detail? I
(20:00):
could get down. And then I had the court transcripts.
And if you talk about high comedy, I wish you
could read the court transcripts from the two trump time.
John Gresham could not have written drama that was like
what was going on in this corp. So I had
all the truth. Nothing could have stopped me nothing. You
could have come to my house with all your children.
(20:22):
You could have dragged your mother out of a nice
place for shoes, put her in the car, and all
of you could have come and yelled at me, and
I would have written this book. I had to get
it out. People have to know that he is just
an old man in saffron colored makeup with his hair
(20:46):
done up like Barbara Stanwy in Ballfire. That's who he is.
That's it. And page after page and how he reacted
and what he did in court and what he didn't do.
It was. I was fascinated by it. I couldn't stop writing.
Oh I was writing easy for you or hard?
Speaker 2 (21:07):
I find writing to be pretty hard.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
But when you write a piece, I can tell when
you hit your stride. Tell me if I'm wrong. When
you have that section about your Malijong fast and that
you have been the receptacle of Erica Jong stories, that
whoever meets you has an Erica Jong story. Do you
remember that section? You hit your stride with that section?
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Oh, thank you?
Speaker 1 (21:30):
I mean you know that book was a lot of rewriting,
was it, Yeah, A lot of rewriting and a lot
of like paring it down and trying to figure out
what went where I have organizational problems. But wait, I
want you to explain to us sort of what it's
like to have this book in the world, the trial,
and also just like you've survived a very scary trial,
(21:53):
you are now in the world. Just talk to us
about sort of where you are right now writing it.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
Because I've never been to a therap just in my life,
I'm fine. You know, my whole life has to spread
sweetness in life, and I don't think about bad things
that went on to me. That was terrible because you know,
two official psychiatris hired, one by Trump, one by Robbery
to plumb my depths and find out what really happened.
(22:20):
Trump's psychiatrist was to prove that I was a gold
bigger wire. Our psychiatrist was just to find out if
what I think happened actually happened. And it turns out
I did so as much as I was hiding that
for myself. I suffered.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
And everything I've read that you've written has shown that
you really did suffer, that it really changed the trajectory
of your life that attack.
Speaker 4 (22:43):
I've never had a romance since nineteen ninety six. No romance,
but I didn't organize my life around I went to
work the next day. It was not the organizing principle,
and I hid it from myself and writing about it,
Mali brought it back in black and white in a
way that helped me. It just made I ended up
(23:05):
very happy. It was like I was on very high
peak and I could see it all. And I think
you probably feel the same when you finish the book
about your mother. You could see it with new eyes
because you actually right got it down on paper. It
was a relief and I was happy afterwards. And the
amazing to me because I would never, ever, never, and
(23:28):
I don't think you would never in my life dream
that anything I could write would ever get near a
bestseller list ever in my life. And then when that happened, Well,
how did you feel about it when you hit the
best seller list?
Speaker 1 (23:40):
I was shocked, exactly, just shocked, shopped.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
One hundred thousand books are published every year, and here, Malija,
you know it's not it wasn't surprising to me where
you hit it. I mean I couldn't even eat.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
I eat a lot of ice cream.
Speaker 4 (23:58):
And that cake that you, oh, I love the cake
that you order.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
It's a very scary time in American life, and Trump
is pretty scary and he is really mad at you.
So how do you not be scared? Because there are
billionaires who are terrified of him.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
I don't give two shits. Do not give two shits.
If somebody shoots me, it's fine with me. I don't
want to feel anything. And shoot me in the arm
or the leg. I do not care. I am not afraid.
You cannot enter this world and be frightened about some
stupid Trump or doing whatever. No, shoot me. Fine, I've
(24:41):
done I've lived eighty one, my li, I've had a
fabulous life. I mean, I have friends like you. How
could I be happier? Fine? I can't live in fear?
Do you live in fair? Are your mouth off every
fucking day?
Speaker 2 (24:53):
No? But what do you think about?
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Like? They are all these very very rich men who
are terrified of saying anything negative about Trump.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
You're talking about CBS, ab Hal, all those.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
I'm talking about corporations and people and Bill but even
I actually think the most subversive are the billionaires because
these are people who have unlimited funds. Right, they need security.
It's surrounding error and those guys are terrified as Trump.
So I mean, what do you have to say to
(25:27):
people like Jeff Bezos, like Elon Musk, like you know,
I mean, Elon happens to be much his own thing.
But to those men who live in who are cowering
in front of Donald Trump.
Speaker 4 (25:41):
Well, because Bezos has got you know, Lauren Sanchez boobs
to protect him. He's not good because you know, those
those boobs are gott to protect him and all their
fucking wedding guests, so we don't have to worry about him.
We don't have to worry about him. I think one
of the reasons they're riches because they're well, you know,
(26:03):
they're all in a you know, they're in a band.
They all want to live forever. You know, they all
they get the shots of the baby juice and all that.
It's just a different tribe, Malie. We can't make them
brave your podcast every single day, you are running your mouth,
every single of it.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
I think it's hard because I think bravery is contagious,
and I think that powerness is also contagious. And here
we have, you know, a president who has said he
will seekret retribution on his political enemies. I wonder if
you could talk about like writing this book where you
scared at all?
Speaker 4 (26:40):
Or now, Melie, I use humor, comedy, a laugh. If
we can laugh, that is a great weapon, because when
we laugh, we can rise above whatever the dark situation
is that our brains are free for that minute. You
use a lot, I use it. No, we've got to
laugh at this darkness. It is a comical, horrible track situation.
(27:01):
If we see the humor in it, we can move on.
All The thing is we have to do, as you know,
is get off our lazy asses and stop sitting in
our houses and then go outside and start to organize.
And we could also get together and control the economy
if we wanted. We all women particularly had more money
than you know, anybody. We could start pulling strings. But
(27:22):
we just sit in our houses. I don't know what
we're doing in there.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
There was a sort of reckoning about men and sexual violence.
There was a moment of me too, and then we
saw a lot of cycling about. You know, what was progress,
what was push back? What was progress? What was push back?
Have you felt that in the way people respond to you.
Speaker 4 (27:45):
No, I live in a huddle up in the country.
I don't really I'm not really around people.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Do you think now that Cuomo has lost that there's
a bit of like, maybe it actually matters, Maybe victims
stories matter.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
Women in New York they didn't forget, you know, unlike
the Republicans who actually have never heard, you know, Molly,
the NY people in the South have never heard that
Donald Trump was held liable because there's a Berlin wall.
I don't think they're listening to fast politics. Frankly, right,
I know the poor souls. I mean they're deprived. They
(28:21):
are deprived, but they don't know it. But in New York,
everybody knew about Blomo. Every woman knew about Glomo, and
she took that into the voting booth and she considered it.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Right. Yeah, I think that's a real thing. So what
are you going to do next? Are you writing? What
is your next move?
Speaker 4 (28:40):
Oh? Well, I got a big plan. I'm coming to
your house and we're going to eat cake and we're
going to discuss how unusual it is to hit the
best seller list, both of us who would never dream
of ever achieving this. And we're gonna have cake, and
we're gonna have milk, and we're gonna have ice cream
and We're just gonna appreciate what we've done, and I'll
(29:01):
appreciate you and you'll appreciate me. Or just well, just
eat cake. We'll have crumbs everywhere, and we'll wear that,
you know, you make up that you're wearing right now,
and the lipstick. You know, we'll do that. I think
that's a good plan. I think that's the plan. On
we just enjoy ourselves. We kind of stop being so
tragic and depressed, and we got to stand up, go outside,
(29:24):
start to understand if we get together, that we can
control the situation. We are his boss, not the other
way around. And then we'll do this. You're Alder, I'm
Alway's house for pay that, you know what? What else?
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Eg? And Carol? Will you please come back?
Speaker 4 (29:38):
Wait? I have to go now where do we come back?
What the hell are you talking about? Okay, I'll come back.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 4 (29:48):
All right, I'll see you soon, Mali.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in
every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best
minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If
you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend
and keep the conversation going Thanks for listening,
Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,
where we discussed the top political headlines with some of
today's best minds. We are on vacation, but that doesn't
mean we don't have a great show for you. Today.
Journalist Ejeene Carroll stops by to talk about her new
book Not My Type. But first we have New York
Magazine's Bridget read on her new book, Little Boss Is
(00:25):
Everywhere How the pyramid scheme shaped America.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Welcome to Fast Politics, Bridget.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Thanks so much for having me explain to us what
you write on and where you got to.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
With this book and how you got here.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
I am a features writer at New York Magazine right now.
I primarily write about housing for Curbs, which is part
of New York mag I started this book when I
was a writer at The Cut, which is New York
magas women's vertical. That's how I sort of was introduced
to this concept of multile marketing, which is very similar,
if not the same, as the pyramid scheme. And I
(01:00):
wrote a really short article in twenty twenty one about
MLMs and just kind of being obsessed from there, and
that's where this book was born.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
MLMs, I feel like they're tied to both women's entrepreneurship
in a strange and destructive way and also to maga politics.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Yeah, so they're really interesting because they are the sleazy
foundation to many of the things we're looking at right
now and right here. So i'd love you to talk
first because you come from the cut about the women's
ish world of MLOUS, and then I'm going to get
you into maga worlds. But I could see how there's
(01:44):
a sort of natural progression here, so talk us through it.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Yeah. So MLM was invented by men in the post
war era scammy salesman who decided that they were going
to create this basically what functions as a Ponzi scheme,
but within the sort of shell of door to door selling,
which is like, you know, an age old American pastime.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Give us an example of a company that does that.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Oh sure, so the oldest one is Amway. The guys
that invented MLM did it with a company and a
vitamin company called Neutralite. Richard DeVos and Jamian andl who
founded Amway. They started as Neutralite salesmen and then they
did what always happens in MLM, which is they picked
up all their distributors and started their own company, which
is Amway. In the late fifties. Amway is the biggest
(02:31):
and most influential MLM in the world. There's also herbal Life,
There's Mary Kay, There's Shackley Tupperware. I could go on
and on. There are hundreds thousands of MLMs now in
the US alone. So even though it was invented by
men very quickly five sixties, women who went to work
(02:51):
in droves during World War Two, and then even though
those levels fell back down after the war, steadily during
the fifties and sixties, more women started going to work,
and of course that rose from there. But what happened
was women statistically went predominantly to industries where the work
wasn't great right, work was insecure. They were secretaries, they
(03:13):
were doing retails, the service sector where you're not big benefits,
you're not doing typical wage work, and you are also
in many respects still doing your childcare. So this need
for flexible work and women being the primary recipient of
a pitch for flexible work, which is what a huge
part of MLM is. It's the idea that you're an
(03:33):
independent contractor, so already by the sixties, women became predominantly
the people who work in multiple marketing, and of course
the industry all then began touting itself as like an
opportunity for women, but always the conservative The industry is
really conservative politically and in terms of its gender ideology.
So from the get go, MLM is a type of
(03:55):
flexible work where women can walk a line right where
they're contributing to the household, but not in a way
that threatens their roles as wives and mothers. Mary Kay
is the most notable founder of an MLM, and she
was a huge part in kind of selling that story,
and there are many copies of it since, and we
could trace a line all the way to current MLMs
(04:17):
where women are girl bosses. They're wearing the oversized blazer
and doing the TikTok videos, but they're also you know,
it's all about, Oh, I retired my husband who's a
Christian firefighter, and I serve him still.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
So you can do both.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
It's really a way to like sublimate women's ambition, sublimate
their economic fears, but do it in a way that
does it threaten the overall you know, nuclear family structure.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Yes, So now get us talking about how these multi
level marketing schemes have popped up in MAGA world.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
The roots of MLM in the Republican Party are beyond deep.
Even before Rich DeVos and Javannandel. Rich Davas of course,
being Betsy Davas's father in law, the founders of multi
level marketing were connected to the Republican Party in California.
They supported Nixon.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
A lot of Republican money comes from multi level marketing.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Yes, That's really what I tried to emphasize in this
book is the MLM money should be as scrutinized as
the empires of the Kochs the Mercers. Right, the money
that's actually been taken from these participants has powered the
Republican Party for decades. I mean, Devas and Van Andel
are the single biggest Republican donors. When Ronald Reagan is
(05:36):
running for president, Ronald Reagan makes Devas a member of
his kitchen cabinet. Javan Andl is the head of the
Chamber of Commerce. They both give heavily to Heritage, And
now right now the chairman of the board at Heritage
is Barb Van Andl. Gabby javan Andl's daughter I mean,
it goes on and on. They give heavily to the
Council for National Policy Focus on the Family. So these
(05:58):
are some dark money Christian groups. Betsy Debas, you know,
very notably resigned in the wake of January sixth and
made a big deal about it, but they continue to
give to all the packs and organizations that helped re
elect Trump, including the very scary Sheriff Fellowship, which is
you know, at Claremont Institute, group that wants to essentially
radicalize share its to use them to carry out Trump's
(06:21):
deportation dreams, but also just like to stop enforcing law
and order where Trump doesn't lot it to be enforced.
They're huge on school vouchers. So there are major engines
of both the economic forces of mega but also those
culture war goals. They've been shaping it long before we
even knew sort of Betsy Devas as a figure. You know,
(06:44):
it's bigger than that. There are other figures in this
industry that have been part of our political world, but
the Amway founders are certainly the most influential.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Right, let's talk for a minute about what we have
in the MAGA multi level marketing. What are they quote
unquote selling like Mary Kay is makeup, Amway is agriculture.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Amway is everything. In Amway, you're encouraged to replace your
entire household products with Amway products. So they sell toothpaste,
they sell an energy drink, Cold Access, they have their
own makeup brand called Artistry, And like, the reason you've
never heard of it is because MLMs are overwhelmingly closed
systems where the participants are buying up this stuff, because
(07:27):
that's how you really make the most money is just
by buying and buying and getting people under you to
be buying. And there are lots of people in my
book who talk about how they're encouraged by this stuff.
You're going to sell it. You have to like use,
you know, use the products that you want to sell.
They're encouraged to sign up for subscriptions, whether they're spending
like four hundred dollars a month on an automated Amway purchase.
(07:49):
The intersection of MAGA, especially the MAHA part of MAGA,
the wellness part and MLM is really strong because many
many of the products it's totally nonsensical MLM it makes sense,
like why would you go buy a toothpaste from Amway?
When you can go get it at Dwayne Reid for
you know, half the price. It never has made any
sense even when it was invented, So they really rely
(08:11):
on a pitch that taps into your fears, It taps
into your worries about your health, and it taps into these.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
MAHA makes a lot of sense for that, Yeah, exactly, like.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
You're you're sick in ways you don't even know, and
here's the way we can fix your gut biome or
all these you know, like pseudo science, untested science. MLM
is a perfect vessel for that because it relies on
this like over the top pitch that we're going to
change your life, which the supplement industry also does, and
so you know, the kind of Joe Rogan style supplement
(08:43):
world also has a lot of overlap with MLMs, So
they're the men's version as well, where men are you know,
getting in into that. And then the crypto side of MAGA,
so Trump's cryptoquin World, Liberty Financial, some of the guys
involved in running that have dipped their toe in the world,
but also just Trump in general, I mean, and Trump
of himself of course, has been the face of two MLMs,
(09:06):
one called Ideal Health and then ACN, which was the
lawsuit against Trump that was dropped.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Wait what ideal Health.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
In the early two thousands or mid two thousands, actually,
Trump was tapped to be the face of an MLM
called Ideal Health, and they sold supplements and they called
it the Trump Network. It was literally described as like
an emergency way that for people who were suffering in
the financial crisis and the Great Recession to like become millionaires.
He reaped a lot of benefit from it, and of
(09:35):
course it collapsed and lots of people said they lost money.
But Trump in general, the way he built his career
is very MLM esque in that MLM relies on promotion.
It's all about promoting the lifestyle that you have and
making it sound like that's as if you're it's because
Amway or whatever MLM you're doing is such a like
incredibly special secret recipe for success. It can't be beat.
(09:58):
It's almost you know, as it's a it's a revolutionary invention.
But what you're really doing is just all you're making
all your money from people other people buying in which,
of course is what Trump has done his whole career. Right,
He's never really been a successful businessman. He's a you know,
a litany of real estate failures. He's propped up by
his father, who himself is propped up by tax evasion.
(10:18):
But he sells this idea that he's an incredible businessman.
And so millions of Americans for decades have bought into
the Trump thing, whether it's you know, buying his his
success systems or going to his failed university. They are
failing and they are losing their investments. But Trump is winning,
and that's that's really the multiple marketing meachanism at its core.
(10:38):
So it's incredibly trumpy. MLM is Trumpian, and Trump is
very MLMI.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
With the MAHA stuff.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Does RFK Junior benefit from my multi level marketing besides
just being someone who is involved in it.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
RFK Junior, as far as ener, doesn't benefit directly from
an MLM, but many of his prominence followers, especially online
and especially these women who are in the anti vax world,
also dabble in multi level marketing. They sell these products
that claim to you know, these are these are people
who got online during the pandemic and just like Trump,
you know, said you can take these supplements, you can
(11:17):
do these you know, additives to your water and they
will keep you from getting sick. So so there are
definitely promoters within MLM who are big RFK supporters.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
And you know, yeah, who are those people.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
They're not public figures, they're not people in that U no, no, no, no, okay.
But I would say the number one MLM promoter within
MAHA is doctor Oz. Doctor Oz has shilled for several
m lms. He appears as as a speaker. You know,
kaid probably hundreds of thousands of dollars to do that
over the years, and doctor Oz has has certainly went
(11:52):
his name to many MLMs in the past.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
So explain to us sort of what when you're looking
at these mL they.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Just the goal is just to keep going. What's the goal? Yes,
just to keep going and to stay out of jail.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Yeah, that hasn't been that hard for them because really
enforcement of any kind of I mean, they exist in
a very deeply unregulated space. Mway essentially bought its political
cover in the late seventies and those rules that have
never really been tested are what allow companies to keep
the business model. So as long as they sort of
(12:28):
purport to be using these rules in place that keep
them from being a pyramid scheme. There's virtually no enforcement
of this that unless the FTC what they're doing is
really really scammy. And the apt SEE has gone after
certainly less than one hundred posibly even less than fifty
MLMs since the seventies in terms of actually suing them
and shutting them down. Yeah, I mean not one pyramid scheme.
Multiple marketing company was shut down during Reagan and butsch
(12:51):
one during Bush two they started up a little bit,
and then in the Clinton administration. But even during the
herbal Life lawsuit when the FTC suit urbal Life, and
that was that whole Bill Ackman saga where Bill Ackman
came out and wanted to short urban life. This is
in twenty eleven, twenty twelve. When the FTC finally sued
Herbalife in twenty sixteen, they immediately crafted a settlement with
(13:14):
the company Erbalife had hired the Desta Group. This is
a bipartisan situation where people you know, on both sides
of the political spectrum have involved themselves with MLM Rbalife
also or am why I believe us boys Schiller at
one point. So you know, these are big corporate companies.
Melan Albright was a spokesperson for Erbal Life for many years.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Yeah, yes, that's so bad, bad and a good example
of you can be on the wrong side of history
and it doesn't matter what party you're in. Right, there's
no world in which any of this is opay.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
And MLMs get by because they're incredibly complicated in terms
of the way they figured out how to talk with
the business model. Like the way I explained the business
model to you is not how they explain it, right.
They make it sound the lot like it's door to
door selling, which to a lot of people is very
like old timey and American, and so you're like, how
could there be anything wrong with this? And because they
are old, they're from the early fifties, we are sort
(14:09):
of trapped in the legal precedent that was set during
the fifties and sixties and seventies, And so there's a
lot keeping MLMs from being understood in the way that
I think they should be understood, Like I think the
Amway family should be treated like the Sacklers in terms
of the harm that they've done on the world. Because
the majority of MLM participants are worldwide. Most most MLM
(14:30):
participants are not in the US anymore. So there's millions
of people here, but there's many more millions around the world.
And you can imagine how much if you're in a
country with way, way less of GDP than the United States,
the idea that you can buy in for a small
amount of money and become a millionaire is is going
to like sweep you up in India or in China
or wherever you are. So yeah, I mean that there's
(14:52):
a lot there's a lot of history that I tried
to pull apart in my book to make people understand, like, yes,
the Betsy Devas, we can critique a lot of her
views right now, but nobody really talks about like where
does her money come from? Betsy Devas's brother is Eric Prince.
So these two kind of Michigan dynasties that are hugely
(15:14):
influential in our modern far right party.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
And profoundly sketchy.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Yeah, and both really like what MLM does is it's
an engine of propaganda that I really find, ultimately at
the end of the day, anti democratic. It's all about
enrolling people in an exploitative and harmful system and using
basically cult tactics to keep their noses to the grindstone,
keep telling them it's going to get better. Keep going,
(15:41):
keep going. You know you're doing it. You want to
do it by yourself. You can do it as an individual.
You don't need government benefits. The government makes you a slave.
And that capitalism works best with no regulation and no
rules like that's what MLM you propagates on the on
a grassroots level. And truly the aim of how MLM
has operated in tandem with ideology is to get to
(16:04):
a place where there really is no one keeping capital,
the forces of capital corporations accountable, that they can truly
do whatever they want. That is what MLM would love,
because of course there's a lot of evidence that MLM's
fraud and so they don't want the FTC, they don't
want consumer protection, they don't want state ags to be empowered.
(16:25):
You know, they would love to simply operate in a
wild West, which, of course is like you can see
it in Doge right now, right, you know, which of
course is getting so much of it's blueprint from Heritage. Heritage,
which is very much a project of multiple marketing. So
not to sound like I have a tinfoil hat on,
but it feels like a conspiracy, because it really is.
(16:45):
If you look at the evidence.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
You don't sound tinfoil Hattie at all. Thank you, bridget Read,
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
E Gene Carrol is a journalist and the author of
the new book Not My Type. Welcome back to Fast Politics,
Eagan Carroll, Molly my Darling, Hellottle friend. So let us
talk about this book. I have it right here, Not
My Type. It was a total secret, this book. No
one knew about it. You kept it secret secret. Talk
(17:18):
to us about how this happened and where you wrote
this book.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Also, I love Donald Trump's blurb.
Speaker 4 (17:25):
Yeah, we got Donald Trump to blurb the book.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
I don't know who she is. So let's talk about
this book.
Speaker 4 (17:30):
I love talking about the book. Molly. I'm eighty one
and I'm been a magazine writer for the last fifty years.
I was put into the middle of a highly comic situation,
surrounded with characters that not even Molly John Fast could create,
each one more surreal and more hilarious and more frightening
(17:53):
and more stupendous than the last. And as an old
time journalist, I could not help myself. I had to
get it down now. It was saint Martin's who decided
we will keep the book secret. And Molly, when you
and I know that when we have a secret, we
become very powerful. So we kept every sentenced secret. And
(18:15):
I just I had that golden nugget inside of me,
that secrecy. I knew stuff that he didn't know. I
was going to explode what really went on behind the
scenes and this, you know, the high comedy. He has
never been treated this way, and we kept it under wraps.
And that's what we did. And Molly, we pulled it off.
(18:36):
I mean we pulled it off.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
I know because I was there on Morning Joe the
day you revealed that you had done it.
Speaker 4 (18:42):
Did you anchor again? Today?
Speaker 1 (18:44):
I did the view today, I'm doing Morning Joe tomorrow.
Speaker 4 (18:47):
How was the view good?
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Those ladies are really cool?
Speaker 4 (18:50):
Now? How did I know you did TV today? Because
you have on full makeup, full makeup. The lips give
you away. I should have guessed the view, should have
guessed the view. That's perfect for you. Well, the morning
I did Morning Joe and you were the anchor, that
was the morning you hit the best seller list. Yes,
so I didn't even want to talk about my book.
I was more excited that your book hit the best
(19:12):
seller list. Yes, poor Molly, you look like you'd been
hit by an arrow because your whole interview went south
because I opened it by saying, you know, let's not
talk about this my life. Congratulations for the best seller.
So that's not my type. Just hit the best seller list,
I know, number two. This is what happens when you
keep something secret.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
It was during the trial that you decided you were
going to write this down, right, Well, Molly.
Speaker 4 (19:39):
I was writing down the whole time. When I returned
my hotel room during this day, I would open up,
I'd take my phone and I'd open it and I'm
just talking to it, every single detail. Everything we were eating,
what Joe Takapina was, where hall Aleena Hobbs hair was
that day? Was it long? Was it short? Was she
wearing the huge diamond ring? Come on this detail? I
(20:00):
could get down. And then I had the court transcripts.
And if you talk about high comedy, I wish you
could read the court transcripts from the two trump time.
John Gresham could not have written drama that was like
what was going on in this corp. So I had
all the truth. Nothing could have stopped me nothing. You
could have come to my house with all your children.
(20:22):
You could have dragged your mother out of a nice
place for shoes, put her in the car, and all
of you could have come and yelled at me, and
I would have written this book. I had to get
it out. People have to know that he is just
an old man in saffron colored makeup with his hair
(20:46):
done up like Barbara Stanwy in Ballfire. That's who he is.
That's it. And page after page and how he reacted
and what he did in court and what he didn't do.
It was. I was fascinated by it. I couldn't stop writing.
Oh I was writing easy for you or hard?
Speaker 2 (21:07):
I find writing to be pretty hard.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
But when you write a piece, I can tell when
you hit your stride. Tell me if I'm wrong. When
you have that section about your Malijong fast and that
you have been the receptacle of Erica Jong stories, that
whoever meets you has an Erica Jong story. Do you
remember that section? You hit your stride with that section?
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Oh, thank you?
Speaker 1 (21:30):
I mean you know that book was a lot of rewriting,
was it, Yeah, A lot of rewriting and a lot
of like paring it down and trying to figure out
what went where I have organizational problems. But wait, I
want you to explain to us sort of what it's
like to have this book in the world, the trial,
and also just like you've survived a very scary trial,
(21:53):
you are now in the world. Just talk to us
about sort of where you are right now writing it.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
Because I've never been to a therap just in my life,
I'm fine. You know, my whole life has to spread
sweetness in life, and I don't think about bad things
that went on to me. That was terrible because you know,
two official psychiatris hired, one by Trump, one by Robbery
to plumb my depths and find out what really happened.
(22:20):
Trump's psychiatrist was to prove that I was a gold
bigger wire. Our psychiatrist was just to find out if
what I think happened actually happened. And it turns out
I did so as much as I was hiding that
for myself. I suffered.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
And everything I've read that you've written has shown that
you really did suffer, that it really changed the trajectory
of your life that attack.
Speaker 4 (22:43):
I've never had a romance since nineteen ninety six. No romance,
but I didn't organize my life around I went to
work the next day. It was not the organizing principle,
and I hid it from myself and writing about it,
Mali brought it back in black and white in a
way that helped me. It just made I ended up
(23:05):
very happy. It was like I was on very high
peak and I could see it all. And I think
you probably feel the same when you finish the book
about your mother. You could see it with new eyes
because you actually right got it down on paper. It
was a relief and I was happy afterwards. And the
amazing to me because I would never, ever, never, and
(23:28):
I don't think you would never in my life dream
that anything I could write would ever get near a
bestseller list ever in my life. And then when that happened, Well,
how did you feel about it when you hit the
best seller list?
Speaker 1 (23:40):
I was shocked, exactly, just shocked, shopped.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
One hundred thousand books are published every year, and here, Malija,
you know it's not it wasn't surprising to me where
you hit it. I mean I couldn't even eat.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
I eat a lot of ice cream.
Speaker 4 (23:58):
And that cake that you, oh, I love the cake
that you order.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
It's a very scary time in American life, and Trump
is pretty scary and he is really mad at you.
So how do you not be scared? Because there are
billionaires who are terrified of him.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
I don't give two shits. Do not give two shits.
If somebody shoots me, it's fine with me. I don't
want to feel anything. And shoot me in the arm
or the leg. I do not care. I am not afraid.
You cannot enter this world and be frightened about some
stupid Trump or doing whatever. No, shoot me. Fine, I've
(24:41):
done I've lived eighty one, my li, I've had a
fabulous life. I mean, I have friends like you. How
could I be happier? Fine? I can't live in fear?
Do you live in fair? Are your mouth off every
fucking day?
Speaker 2 (24:53):
No? But what do you think about?
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Like? They are all these very very rich men who
are terrified of saying anything negative about Trump.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
You're talking about CBS, ab Hal, all those.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
I'm talking about corporations and people and Bill but even
I actually think the most subversive are the billionaires because
these are people who have unlimited funds. Right, they need security.
It's surrounding error and those guys are terrified as Trump.
So I mean, what do you have to say to
(25:27):
people like Jeff Bezos, like Elon Musk, like you know,
I mean, Elon happens to be much his own thing.
But to those men who live in who are cowering
in front of Donald Trump.
Speaker 4 (25:41):
Well, because Bezos has got you know, Lauren Sanchez boobs
to protect him. He's not good because you know, those
those boobs are gott to protect him and all their
fucking wedding guests, so we don't have to worry about him.
We don't have to worry about him. I think one
of the reasons they're riches because they're well, you know,
(26:03):
they're all in a you know, they're in a band.
They all want to live forever. You know, they all
they get the shots of the baby juice and all that.
It's just a different tribe, Malie. We can't make them
brave your podcast every single day, you are running your mouth,
every single of it.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
I think it's hard because I think bravery is contagious,
and I think that powerness is also contagious. And here
we have, you know, a president who has said he
will seekret retribution on his political enemies. I wonder if
you could talk about like writing this book where you
scared at all?
Speaker 4 (26:40):
Or now, Melie, I use humor, comedy, a laugh. If
we can laugh, that is a great weapon, because when
we laugh, we can rise above whatever the dark situation
is that our brains are free for that minute. You
use a lot, I use it. No, we've got to
laugh at this darkness. It is a comical, horrible track situation.
(27:01):
If we see the humor in it, we can move on.
All The thing is we have to do, as you know,
is get off our lazy asses and stop sitting in
our houses and then go outside and start to organize.
And we could also get together and control the economy
if we wanted. We all women particularly had more money
than you know, anybody. We could start pulling strings. But
(27:22):
we just sit in our houses. I don't know what
we're doing in there.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
There was a sort of reckoning about men and sexual violence.
There was a moment of me too, and then we
saw a lot of cycling about. You know, what was progress,
what was push back? What was progress? What was push back?
Have you felt that in the way people respond to you.
Speaker 4 (27:45):
No, I live in a huddle up in the country.
I don't really I'm not really around people.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Do you think now that Cuomo has lost that there's
a bit of like, maybe it actually matters, Maybe victims
stories matter.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
Women in New York they didn't forget, you know, unlike
the Republicans who actually have never heard, you know, Molly,
the NY people in the South have never heard that
Donald Trump was held liable because there's a Berlin wall.
I don't think they're listening to fast politics. Frankly, right,
I know the poor souls. I mean they're deprived. They
(28:21):
are deprived, but they don't know it. But in New York,
everybody knew about Blomo. Every woman knew about Glomo, and
she took that into the voting booth and she considered it.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Right. Yeah, I think that's a real thing. So what
are you going to do next? Are you writing? What
is your next move?
Speaker 4 (28:40):
Oh? Well, I got a big plan. I'm coming to
your house and we're going to eat cake and we're
going to discuss how unusual it is to hit the
best seller list, both of us who would never dream
of ever achieving this. And we're gonna have cake, and
we're gonna have milk, and we're gonna have ice cream
and We're just gonna appreciate what we've done, and I'll
(29:01):
appreciate you and you'll appreciate me. Or just well, just
eat cake. We'll have crumbs everywhere, and we'll wear that,
you know, you make up that you're wearing right now,
and the lipstick. You know, we'll do that. I think
that's a good plan. I think that's the plan. On
we just enjoy ourselves. We kind of stop being so
tragic and depressed, and we got to stand up, go outside,
(29:24):
start to understand if we get together, that we can
control the situation. We are his boss, not the other
way around. And then we'll do this. You're Alder, I'm
Alway's house for pay that, you know what? What else?
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Eg? And Carol? Will you please come back?
Speaker 4 (29:38):
Wait? I have to go now where do we come back?
What the hell are you talking about? Okay, I'll come back.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 4 (29:48):
All right, I'll see you soon, Mali.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in
every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best
minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If
you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend
and keep the conversation going Thanks for listening,
Host
Molly Jong-Fast
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