October 15, 2025 • 51 mins
The Society for the Rule of Law’s George Conway examines Trump’s increasingly disturbing behavior.
Indivisible’s Leah Greenberg and Ezra Levin detail how they’re meeting this moment with this week’s No Kings Rally.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Molli John Fast and this is Fast Politics,
where we discussed the top political headlines with some of
today's best minds, and Donald Trump says, I don't think
there's anything that's going to get me into heaven. We
have such a great show for you today. The Society
for the Rule of Law's own George Conway stops by
to talk about Trump's increasingly erratic and disturbing behavior. Then
(00:24):
we'll talk to indivisibles Leah Greenberg and Ezra Levin about
meeting this moment with this week's peaceful No King's Rally.
But first, the story is the media is missing so.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Mally JP Morgan, one of the biggest financial institutes in
our country. They said that America is going broke slowly
as the national depth balloons in tariff revenue looks well questionable.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
You are really into this story about the dead. I
love you.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
It's always telling when the people who want to keep
our economy optimistic have to go.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
I mean, the debt is a huge problem and Republicans
used to care about it, but they don't anymore. And
so since they don't care about it, I can't care
about it. No, this is stupid we grew the debt
by the way we grew the debt with the BBB
three point four trillion dollars. Why so that Trump could
give Ice billions and billions of dollars. Yes, his paramidlitary
(01:22):
force that wears facial coverings. That group needs more money
so that they can detain people who look a certain way.
We call it a Kavanaugh stopped sensioned by Justice Brett Kavanaugh,
who said, in fact that he's fine with racial profiling.
So billions of dollars to Trump's paramilitary force so that
(01:45):
they can stop people who look hispanic. I don't think
it's a great use of our tax dollars personally, but
that's just me.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Yeah, I can't say I find this good, but I
think it's always a grim economic forecast, while or Trump's
whole financial cabinet trying to pretend that we're not going
down to a bad place in our economy.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
All billionaires, a cabinet filled with billionaires, all of whom
want to lessen their tax burden so that they can
just get whatever they want. And these are people who
know better but don't pare because they want to pay
us taxes.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
All right, Well, now, we're going to get to the
really fun stuff. So Politico, known as.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
A inside the Beltway both siding their way to autocracy,
couldn't have put it better. I love them putting the
fun and fascism one one two siding article.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
At the time, Well they've put up a pretty ugly
one on one side. I love Hitler. Leaked messages exposed
young Republicans racist Chad. I'm going to be honest with you.
They led with the I love Hitler. There's like ten
flavors of awful, awful messages in these things, because they
got thousands of private messages that showed many of the
young GOP leaders, you know, all young Republican groups, and
(03:04):
they are talking about murdering their enemies and the Democratic Party,
that the gas chambers aren't good enough. Things like that.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Yeah, so they refer to black people as monkeys and
quote of the watermelon people mused about putting their political
opponents in gas chambers. They talked about raping their enemies
and driving them to suicide. And a lot of Republicans
who they believe supported slavery Kansas young Republican vice chair
used the N word. That is probably all you need
(03:34):
to know about this moment in history. These people are
not pretending to be white supremacists. It's not a troll.
It's who they are.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
It's not a troll, it's a brand.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
By the way, everyone that votes know is going to
the gas chamber. They're going to say they were kidding. Also,
can I just tell you, like, these are the people
who are running the Republican Party. These are people the
general counsel to the New York State Republicans. I'm ready
to watch people burn now new York's National Committee member.
These are telegram chats leaders of the Republican Party in
(04:09):
New York, Kansas, Arizona, Vermont. These new generation of GOP
activists talk like they are strom Thurman on crack cocaine
with a little more racism, with.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
A little bit more four Chan.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
I'd say strom Thurman meets four Chan meets crack cocaine.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yeah, I think you know a lot of times like
you and I'll be talking to people who are a
little less online aka everyone on this world, and they
wonder why, like a Senator Mike Lee, a Mormon in Utah,
is tweeting such psychotic things, And the answer is, these
are their staffers and their staffers are writing this shit
and may they may approve it, they may say no,
don't take it down. But at the end of the day,
(04:52):
the quackery does trickle upwards, unlike their views on the economy.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Yeah, this stuff is so incredibly I mean, it's not
shocking because we know this is what they believe, but
they do in fact that One good thing is they
are not completely aligned with Trump, though they are somewhat
aligned with Hitler.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
I was gonna say, the bad news is they're not
aligned with Trump because they don't think he's going hard enough.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Right, But Trump's too busy burning the Epstein file. Says
Alex Dreyer, the chair of the Kansas Young Republicans. This
is so bad. This is so, so, so bad, and
it's bad for a number of reasons. One is because
these people knew this was a semi public chat and
still talk like this to these people believe this, right,
(05:40):
that's pretty fucking bad. And three, you know, Donald Trump
and two point zero has created a pro mission structure
for this. So in every which way, this is real
fucking that.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
So let's talk about my hero. We have a few
governors who are doing a great job pushing it back
against the Trump administration. One is my boy, Governor J. B. Pritzker,
and he's looking to prosecute ICE agents in Chicago.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Yeah, here's the thing. You can be a craven coward
and still get prosecuted. I'm looking at all of these
Republicans who have just bent the knee and still will
ultimately end up on the wrong side of Trump. Or
you can be brave, and when you're brave, you know
you win. You ultimately win. So Pritzker is pushing back
(06:24):
and the only way to push back against Trump is
to do stuff like this price secuting ICE agents in
Chicago talking to state prosecutors. By the way, Pritzker told
Fox thirty two Chicago, the tables will turn one day.
These people should recognize that they're not going to get
prosecuted today though they probably should be. They will eventually.
And that's the thing, Like we talked, We talked about
(06:46):
this so much in this podcast, and there's a reason
for that. Because the America we're living in right now,
this is not going to be the America of a
year from now. It's not even the it was not
the America six months ago. Like this is a very
very dark moment in American life. But it's also not
the norm. And eventually we're going to get back to
(07:07):
what is where we have laws, and it's not gonna
be good for them. It's going to be good for
the rest of us because it will mean we'll live
in a nation of laws again. But for now, it's
important to behave that we like we still live in
a nation of laws, even if it feels like some
Republicans don't have to follow those laws because the Supreme
Court has told them they don't. I think it's wrong
(07:28):
to assume Pritzker is doing this because of his ambitions.
I think it's right to assume that Pritzker is doing
this because he understands what the right thing is and
knows that this is it.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
When Pritzker said to videotape people, this is the endgame,
is that there will be a day where we're able
to prosecute those And what it also does is it
makes these ice officials think twice about their abuses. They're
joining guns at citizens, they're beating.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Up journalists, shooting a priest, an episcopal priest with a
pepper ball, yes, yes, at his head.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Yeah, great stuff. So if this gives them pause about
their lawlessness. It helps protect his people, and I do
believe Pritzker is a true believer and that type of stuff.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Yeah me too, man.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Okay, well, now we get to the Washington Post, which
has decided to cover itself in the opposite of Corey
Mark Thiessen a pursues Beth the Post for Kwai while
says we're now a conservative opinion page.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
This is the opposite of brave, a very very very
very very craven Jeff Bezos, worried about shareholder value, does
not give a thought about American democracy, owns the Washington Post.
In season one, he used to care about American democracy.
(08:49):
Season two, not so much. That guy. He has decided
that he doesn't want an opinion paid to the Washing
But by the way, he could sell the Washington Post
anytime you want and we'd all be happy. This was
what Jeff Bezos said. Now they only write about free markets.
They love a free market, which is kind of hilarious
(09:09):
because Donald Trump does not like a free market. He
is not a free trader. He is a terrifying lunatic.
So they like free markets and personal liberties, which I
guess means again personal Lifgines runs you right into a
nice agent. But okay, these are the things that Jeff
Bezos has decided. So basically, the Washington Post opinion page
(09:32):
is now the Wall Street Journal opinion page, but slightly
worse and you know, wrong side of history. Jeff Bezos welcome.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Some of the five major broadcast networks say they're not
going to sign Pete Heiggs's new Pentagon press policy where
you have to be nice to him and not post leeks.
What do you see in here?
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Yeah, he's very You gotta be nice to Pete and
you can't be fat. You gotta be nice, you can't
be fat. This is a song that you've gone too far.
And look, had everybody done this when Trump had made
the ap call it the Gulf of America, had all
of the media outlets been like, we're out, think of
(10:13):
how differently this all would have gone. But this is
a great example of how solidarity works. Everyone signed this,
with the exception of one news outlet. Can you guess
what news outlet it is?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Jesse. It begins with an F and ends with anaks.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Really nope, yeah, one American.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
News Oh yeah, hell yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Oh yeah. When Fox is too intellectual, come on down
to oh A and n President confirmed they did, in
fact do it. They have signed the document because honestly,
when you work for Trump, you sign the doc. Solidarity works.
(10:56):
George Conway is the president of the Society for the
Law and the host of George Conway explains it all
too Sarah Longwell, George Conway, Hi, welcome to Fast Politics.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
Thank you for having me once again for the ten
thousandth time.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
So JP Morgan warns that America is going broke. Who
could have seen this coming?
Speaker 3 (11:20):
Did you see?
Speaker 4 (11:21):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (11:21):
I don't know who could have seen it coming. Who
could have seen that electing a man who's bankrupted so
many companies would bankrupt the United States? Who could have
foreseen that?
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Do you? Is it weird to watch someone just dismantle
the country in the name of conservatism when not actually
being a conservative.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Well, I think we're all kind of used to it now.
I mean, it's not conservatism. It's nihilistic destruction for reasons
that really have nothing to do with policy. And that's
where we are. I mean, this is this is who
he is, and this is these are the people he's
surrounded himself with.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
This is a phenomenon. I know, you've studied and you're
sort of a master of explaining people like Scott Passant,
who before you went into the admin people were like, Oh,
that guy's normal, he'll be normal. Why have people like
him and Marco Rubio?
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Look, I mean, they're the most they're they're they're the
most normal in the bunch, but they're completely outnumbered. I mean,
at least during the first Trump administration, you had more
normalcy there. Even though those people ended up in a
lot of ways, a lot of them compromised themselves, but
they were at least kind of understood what they were
dealing with, and they were willing to check his worst impulses.
(12:39):
And they actually, for example, Chief of Staff General John
Kelly understood he was dealing with a mentally unsound person.
In fact, brought in a book written by psychiatrists and
psychologists that talked about Trump's various mental maladies and incapacities.
So they understood they had to check him and restrict
(13:01):
him in some way. The fellow from Gary Cohen from
goldn Sachs used to take things off his desk. They
used to tell him he couldn't do things that tell
him it wouldn't be a good idea to do it.
They told him that things were illegal. The Justice Department,
people who refused to go in with him on overturning
(13:22):
the constitution told him they would resign on mass On
Moss so many examples of people basically telling him no.
Secretary Esper and General Maddis telling him no, no, we
can't call out the National Guard for the George Floyd protests.
Those people are all gone. You do have some people
(13:42):
who are relatively normal, as you point out Marco Rubio
and Scott Bessen. But if you go all in in
this administration, you are compromised. You will compromise yourself. You
are out lumbered by the people who are mentally unsent.
I mean, we didn't you know, one of the things
in the first Trump administration, you did not have the
(14:06):
people who were deeply unsound, mentally and deeply disturbed who
were running things. But now you have Steven Miller has
more power than ever. You have RFK who is completely bombers.
You have all of these people who are just unwell
and they don't care about anything about the country, but
(14:28):
they care about their own status, and they care about
pleasing the boss, and so anything goes so that's the
big difference.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
One of the new phenomenons that I think is new
from Trump one point zero is this where Donald Trump
tries to out crazy a member of his administration. So
when he was with RFK Junior, he said, RFK was
like maybe Tiland and awe and then Trump went like
(14:56):
whole hog on vaccines. And you saw that with Pete
Head says too. Pete Hegg says called everyone in to
have a meeting, and the meeting was like, don't be fat.
And then Trump was like, and I will speak next,
and he was like, there are the enemy within, so
explain that, because that's new.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
They're all unwell. I don't know any other way to
do to explain it. And you have a leader who
is a narcissistic sociopath, as I've said so often, doesn't
care about anyone other than himself, lacks any moral capacity
for judgment, lacks any remorse, lacks any recognition or understanding
of truth. Truth is whatever comes to his mind that
(15:37):
he feels he wants to impart, and it's usually something
that involves his own glorification. And he now has his way,
he has control. There are people no one is willing
to tell him no, and if they do, they are gone,
including US attorneys who say, well, we can't bring these charges.
(15:57):
So basically we have a sociopath an unstable mentally unstable
government because the people at its head, and especially the
one who had been checked in the first term to
some extent, even though it didn't seem that way at
the time, is now unchecked.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
And then you have these women, which is a little
bit new, like Lindsay Hall again, these women who are
sort of his hench women who come in I guess
were They were.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
Not necessarily new in this sense. There have always been
women around him. I think I don't know where I
got this information. Who will do his bidding. I don't
think there's anything new about it. I honestly don't, And
I think that, you know, I mean, we saw Sarasuck,
Huckabee Sanders, we saw my ex wife. You know. They
(16:46):
threw their lot in with Trump, and in a weird way,
they empathized with Trump. Because what happens is that Trump
brings you into his fold, you end up defending him,
treat him like kind of a wayward child, but it's
their child, So attacks on him they view as attacks
(17:07):
on themselves and then they get attacks, attacks that are
made on them, bonds them to Trump, and it's a
it's a very it's a very bizarre phenomenon, and I
don't but again again, I don't think that's unique. I mean,
I think I think it happens with the men too.
I think there's a Stockholm syndrome aspect to me. But
I also think again, to go back to the original
point I'm making, is that the people who surround him
(17:31):
now are the worst of the worst, and there aren't
enough people. Even the bad people in the prior administration.
Those people understood when things had gone too far my life.
They understood, you know, they understood when things went too far,
and they're willing to, you know, at least try to
organize themselves and place themselves in a way that could
(17:55):
slow things down, even if they weren't you know, thoroughly principled,
and they didn't you know, resign out of protest or
do anything like that.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
And there is none of that now. In fact, it
is this sort of warp speed kind of thing, which
I wonder, like, you know, there was this piece in
the Wall Street Journal this week about how Trump was
so embolden that the middle East thing had made him
just as involved in as we've ever seen him. That
tends to lead to him overplaying.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
His hand, correct, I mean, And that's how ultimately narcissistic
sociopaths who attained some position of power, they often they
run out their strength because they don't know limits and
they don't care about limits. And they also, you know,
they're obsessed with revenge, and they're obsessed with their own
(18:46):
glorification and their power, and then they begin to think
that they are invincible. And you know, I mean it
ends in the bunker, so to speak. I mean, if
you ever watched the movie Downfall, which I've always urged
people to watch the German Langue, which film about the
last ten days of the in the Fear Bunker. You know,
it was a completely unreal place, and you have this
(19:10):
man who was leading everybody into destruction and it was
a result of his They called it at the time megalomania.
And that's what we're seeing today with Trump.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Now.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
The question is when people like that overstep and they
finally go too far and they overreach the way Hitler
did with Operation Barbarossa, And the question is how big
is the blast radius? When they blow themselves up. And
the sooner they blow themselves up actually the better, because
the longer it goes, the more destruction they create. And
(19:41):
that's always been up. Mean, you've heard me use the
term blast radius with Trump year for years, I think.
And the question is when he ultimately will blow himself up,
The question is what does he take with him.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
You know, he ran as a populist. We're seeing a
lot of people talking about how they're just disappointed with
a lot of what he's done. I don't know if
it's the same as us time or more or less.
But talk us through what you think. Do you think
he comprehends that. Do you think he doesn't care his
polling is real bad?
Speaker 3 (20:14):
First of all, I don't think they give him those
poll numbers anymore. Who wants who is going to volunteer
to bring that information? And so you don't think he
sees them? Oh he may, but he doesn't believe them.
He doesn't know, He doesn't, right. He believes what he
wants to believe, all right, And he constructs his own reality.
(20:36):
And if you try to defy that reality, then you
fall out of favor, or he thinks you're conspiring against him.
Because he is, you know, as part of being a
malignant narcissist. He's not narcissistic, sociopathic or psychopathic. He's also paranoid.
So all of these things hey play a role in.
(20:59):
He doesn't recognize his limits and now he's sort of
obsessed with his own mortality. So he's going to go
for broken a lot of ways. So it could get
a lot worse.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
And that's like the legacy stuff, the Noble Peace prize stuff.
Is that what you're thinking about it?
Speaker 3 (21:18):
Absolutely? I think that that's you know, it's bizarre, but
that's how he thinks. But it's only you know, he
doesn't care about peace. He only cares about the prize.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
So right, But now do you think not winning that
prize or you think he just thinks he'll get it
next time, or.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Well, he thinks he's wrongfully deprived the prize, and I
think he will seek vengeance upon people he thinks stood
in the way of him getting the prize. I mean,
who knows. I mean, he's just a very unwell man.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
One of the things I've been really struck by with
you is you have been brave. You know, in Trump
one point out it was easy to be brave. Everybody
was brave now now, So really tell me why I think.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
He's here to be brave now, because we can now
spunger more more than ever before.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
We've seen a lot of people really just be craven opportunists. Yes,
why are you brave?
Speaker 3 (22:15):
I don't think I'm brave. I don't view myself as brave.
I view myself as a realistic someone who basically tries
to figure things out and figure out what the right
answer is from what I have in front of me.
And I don't know how you can rationally escape the
(22:36):
conclusion that the country is in deep trouble because it
is operated by people who fundamentally don't believe in the
rule of law, don't believe in the public good, who
seek personal and financial gratification at the expense of others others' rights,
regardless of what they should be entitled to, and they
(23:00):
only care about themselves and that's who they are.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Why do you think that there are so many people
like Tim Apple who are I mean, you think it's
just they feel the well, yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
I think Tim Apple, Tim Apple, Tim Cook. So look,
I think basically people are so accustomed to playing their
own role and being in their own lean that they
don't view themselves as part of a polity, and they
put their roles as director of a company, as CEO
(23:39):
of a company, as presidents of the university or head
a chairman of a law firm ahead of their roles
as citizens. And if you are you know, engaging in
economic economic activity, and you have a corrupt government and
you are seeking to maximize profits, and maximizing profit requires
(24:00):
you to give a silly award to a silly man
like Tim Cook did, or pay a bribe like the
government of cut Our, or do any of those things,
and you are trying to basically maximize wealth, maximize personal interest.
(24:21):
It is perfectly rational to put your interests, your personal interests,
or your corporate interests, of your salary, you know, above
your obligations as a citizen and a human being. It's
not right, it's not morally right. It doesn't show character.
But we have, you know, that is one of the problems,
(24:42):
That is one of the reasons why we have Donald
Trump is people do not think of themselves as part
you know, they don't think of themselves principally as moral actors.
They don't consider their actions to be morally consequential because
they convince themselves they can't do anything about it. They
can't stand in the way of this one person can't
(25:04):
stand in the way of the government. So let's you know,
let's just let's just cave and and what happens is
it's again, it's like a you know, a gain. Theorist
would say, it's like the tragedy of the commons or
the prisoner's dilemma. It's like if everybody behaves that way,
then we all lose, you know, it's a it's.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
So why do you behave that? Why?
Speaker 3 (25:28):
I mean I because I because I I can't. I
wouldn't be able to live with myself if I didn't.
And I also have an advantage over a lot of people, right,
I mean I do. I have to concede I have
an advantage over other people. I work thirty years in
a law fer. I saved up a lot of money.
I don't need to work anymore. And one of the
things that is great about where I am today is
I could say whatever the fuck I want, and I
(25:51):
enjoy doing that. I get a pleasure doing that. I
don't like I wish I didn't have to do that.
I'd rather be, you know, I mean, it's side. I
could rather be spring skiing in the in the Andes.
I guess I don't know if they still have spring skiing,
but that's what I'd rather be doing.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
I don't want to compliment you, because I know how
I know how much you hate that.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
I don't think. I don't think. I mean, someone makes
I should get credit for doing what should be done,
all right, And that's not meant to criticize people. It's
not meant to criticize people who are just like you know,
the FBI agent who's trying to serve the public and
get his pension, and and and so on. I can't
blame people for making the best of their situations as
(26:39):
they are, and they have families to feel. I don't,
you know, I don't fault that, But I do think
that a lot of people who are in a position
to do something, just take a stand, are putting their
desire to get a third home somewhere above above the
interests of the public. And I think that's very very
short again, just against the interest the polity, against the
(27:01):
interests of the public, against their own freedom and their
own rights, and surrendering that to essentially, you know, authoritarian lunatics,
and they're doing that and they don't have to do that.
But the more they do that, the more it is
that everybody has to surrender. So that's that's you know,
that's why it's important for people to stand.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Up lightning ground. Who is the most dangerous member of
Trump's cabinet maybe RFK.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
I think you can make an argument with that. Hegseeth
is a is a cipher Rubio, right, he doesn't arise
to the level of cipher. Also, I mean mostly the
cabinet is cipher, consists of ciphers. Gnome is basically a character.
She's just a cost player. Who else? Who else? We
(27:47):
I think the people who are the most dangerous I
don't think they're necessarily in the cabin I think Stephen
Miller is dangerous, right, he is in some way? Yeah,
I mean I think those people, the people who have
who actually care about what they're doing, as opposed to
(28:07):
just going along for the ride, which Rubio is doing
the beston is doing. Christine nom is doing it because
she likes the attention and the videos and the performance art.
I think Seth iSIG Seth is doing it for the
same thing. I mean, maybe maybe it's the Officers Club
bars throughout the world. I don't know, so I think,
(28:31):
you know, but the but the people who really have
like I mean, in the case of Russ Vaught, I mean,
did you hear that quote about somebody said of him,
some person in the Trump administration, that he's wanted to
dismantle the government since puberty? I mean, what is that? Right?
And we know and we know even Miller is a
fundamentally a sick, a sick man. I mean, he would
(28:52):
he would have fit right in other than you know,
this Jewish heritage. You would have fit right in, you know,
to the Nazi regime.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Not good, not good. George Conway, will you come back?
Speaker 3 (29:03):
Always come back.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Leah Greenberg and Ezra Levin are the founders of Indivisible.
Welcome too fast politics, you guys.
Speaker 5 (29:15):
It's great to be here. We're excited.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
So we have the team behind the No Kings March
and numerous other things. So to explain what you do
at indivisible and a little bit about how you got
into this, absolutely well.
Speaker 4 (29:29):
At Indivisible, we work with a grassroots movement that is
led by regular people all over the country who have
decided that they need to get involved and they need
to do something. We got started in twenty sixteen, shortly
after Donald Trump was elected the first time. Ezra and
I we are married, We are former congressional staffers. We
were absolutely furious with everything that was happening, and we
(29:50):
decided to take all the knowledge that we had as
former congressional staffers, turn it inside out and make it
available to folks around the country so they could organize
effectively to get together locally and pressure their elected officials
to push back against Trump and trump Ism. That was
the basic idea. We wrote a Google doc guide to
how to do that. It went viral. Suddenly we were
(30:11):
working with thousands of local hubs for communicaty activism all
over the country who were calling themselves Indivisible Groups, which
was the.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Title of the guide.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
And we have been on a journey with those folks
all over the country ever since.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
I remember seeing that Google doc as we do have
anything else you want to add here in this.
Speaker 5 (30:31):
Well, that Google doc was spread around like wildfire, and
we started getting all this incoming from all around the
country and it al said the exact same thing, which
is this guide is full of typos and so one thing, enerneybody,
you've got a lesson from this. It's if you put
something on the internet and then people read it, they
will let you know the problems that they have with it.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Yeah, this is a phenomenon that I know all too well. Yes,
continue well.
Speaker 5 (30:55):
But then the other thing they did, they started forming
these local groups and it's just been a real honor
to be part of of this grassroots movement of normal
everyday people, nurses and IT technicians and lawyers and teachers
who are out there organizing in their home turf. I mean,
this is what we need. Democracy is a participatory sport.
Speaker 6 (31:12):
Lea.
Speaker 5 (31:12):
You often say politics is too important to be left
to the politicians. I think that's right. We're facing a
democracy crisis right now, and we can't engage as consumers alone.
We've got to engage as active participants. That's how we
actually change things.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
I spent a lot of time thinking about like why
Trump two point zero is significantly scarier than Trump one
point Oh, you guys interface with a lot of people
in the base who are activists or mostly normal people
who want to make their voices heard. Is it more
people than last time? And are they more agitated.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
It is more people than last time. We are seeing
kind of a rate of ongoing formation of new local,
indivisible groups that wildly outpaces what we saw in twenty seventeen.
The kinds of mass mobilizations that we are seeing are
take place at a scale that dwarfs a lot of
what we saw in twenty seventeen twenty eighteen. I'll just
give you one quick example we do well. The single
(32:09):
largest mass mobile is the same day mass mobilization that
was called more nationally in the first Trump term, where
the families belong together marches to protect operation. In twenty eighteen,
those were incredible. There were about seven hundred and fifty
around the country. This year, we saw with hands off,
about thirteen hundred events and rallies around the country with
no kings in June twenty one hundred. We are heading
(32:30):
into twenty five hundred all over the country, reach into
really really rural, really red areas that might not have
previously had much in the way of visible progressive pro
democracy organizing.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
So I would say that what.
Speaker 4 (32:44):
We're seeing is a really extraordinary and massive ground swell.
And what has been so different about this time compared
to twenty seventeen is not necessarily how regular people have responded.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
It has been the.
Speaker 4 (32:55):
Total collapse of elite institutions, elected officials, leaders who are
ostensibly supposed to hold up some corner of the fight
for democracy and have simply declined to do so.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
As we do. You have thoughts about that. I think
that's totally right, But I'm curious if you want to
add anything.
Speaker 5 (33:11):
Well, Lee is the real thought leader of this duo
parrot which he says, but in a louder, more confident,
white male voice.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
We'd love to see it.
Speaker 5 (33:20):
So I agree with all that, But just to give
a sense, like I grew up in rural Texas, Hayes County, Texas,
there are three No Kings Day events in rural Hayes County, Texas. Wow,
we're in Burns, Oregon. That's population twenty seven hundred. We're
in Bryceon City, North Carolina, population fifteen hundred. Like they're
going to be big events in Washington, d C. And
New York City and Chicago, and that's going to be awesome,
(33:41):
But twenty five hundred events. Just to underline what Leah
said in my white male voice, that's incredible, Like that
is incredible. I mean, this is a historic level of
peaceful protests that we have not seen in modern American history.
The need for that is so great, exactly for the
reason Lea's said, This isn't just congres failing as yet again,
(34:01):
This isn't just Donald Trump being an idiot and an
asshole like he always is. This isn't authoritary and breakthrough moment.
And that means more than just your elected officials. It
means media institutions and news organizations and law firms and
universities who are being bullied and need to understand there's
countervailing force out there, that this moment that we're in
(34:21):
is temporary and that it will be replaced by an
era of reform and accountability. And you'd better get your
ass on the right side of history otherwise your reputation
is going to be permanently damaged.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
God I think about that all the time because my
grandfather was jailed by the House of an American Activities
during the McArthur era. And like, if anything, we are
in a new you know, a sort of a moment
of backlash to backlash to backlash. So what is so
clearly immoral in this moment is going to be very
(34:52):
clearly immoral to everyone in about five minutes. So it's
shocking to be that we're even seeing universities think about
making deals with this guy.
Speaker 5 (35:00):
Look, ICE is already terrorizing communities around the country, and
the money flowing into it has just started to flow.
One hundred and seventy one billion dollars flooding into a
secret police force. You think that's going to look better
as the months stick by. You think that's going to
look better when all of the Proud Boys are on
the federal payroll. No, you have a choice. Get on
the right side of history now. Otherwise. Look, new leaders
(35:23):
are going to come to the forefront and you're going
to be in mind.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
Yeah, I think that's really true. If you're listening to
this and you're wondering what you can do, talk us
through what that looks like, what the options are there.
Speaker 4 (35:34):
Well, first and foremost, we're going to tell you to
come out to protest with us on Saturday. You are
probably pretty close to your nearest No King's event. In fact,
pretty much no matter where you are, wherever you are
in the country, you are pretty close to a No
King's event. So find your event, get your American flags,
get ready, go on out and be in community with
(35:55):
that big group of people who are collectively coming out
and fighting for to my sie. But you know, we
also want that to be the beginning, not the end, right, Like,
we want people to be finding their local home for
organized activism, for getting involved, for pushing back within your community,
you know, organizing, whether that's to support immigrants who are
under attack, whether that's mutual aid for people who as
(36:17):
livelihoods are being harmed by the Trump cuts, whether that
is getting getting involved in elections and helping to push
back in an electro way.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
It's going to take all of us.
Speaker 4 (36:28):
Collectively, you know, as kind of a massive symphony of
defiance pushing back against this administration. And the best way
to get that started is to get involved with a
local organizing home.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
So one of the things that we're seeing a lot
of is that Republicans are really freaked out by these protests,
and their message is that the Zantifa that this is
not okay, that this is so talk us through some
of these talking points and why you think they're so
agitated about those.
Speaker 5 (37:00):
There's such utter bullshit you almost have to take it
as a compliment. Molly, right, like, they ignore you, then
they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
We're one step from winning, Molly. They're fighting now and
they don't know how to do it. They are terrified
of peaceful protest. And that's true of authoritarian regimes all
over the world.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Right.
Speaker 5 (37:17):
The Trump attacks on our states, on our communities, on
our government, that doesn't come from a place of strength.
This guy's unpopular. He's a lang dunk president. He's on
the way out. He's worried that his grip on power
has a time limitation on it, and the time is ticking,
and so he's lashing out. Authoritarians want you to feel lone.
And so this promise that the largest peaceful protest in
(37:39):
modern American history is coming together this week and ease terrifying,
and so they're trying to attack it. They can't even
say no Kings if you watch their talking points, if
you listen to them, they can't even say the words
no Kings because they know how unobjectionable that would be,
so they make up some other words about it. So
I mainly thank them for the free publicity, and then
on a serious note, they're trying to up some fear
(38:01):
they're trying to disincentivize people from exercising their First Amendment rights.
And so what we do in response to that is
we train people on de escalation, and we train people
on safety. We make sure every single one of these
events has a safety lead and a safety plan, and
every single interview you see us do you will see
us emphasizing the non violence, peaceful nature of this. This
is us protecting our constitutional rights. And that's it, and
(38:25):
that's enough. That's enough to be impactful, and it's enough
to make it important, and it's enough to scare them.
But Jesus out of the Republicans in Congress and the
members of this regime who would like to see those
rights go.
Speaker 4 (38:35):
Away, I agree with all that, and I would also
just add I think we're also seeing that they are
they understand that they have gotten themselves into a pretty
uncomfortable position on the shutdown that they are you know,
the American people are blaming them for keeping the government
shut down rather than giving folks healthcare, and they are
kind of just desperately casting around for any message that
will take the heat off of them. So I think
(38:56):
we've got to see this as both you know, sinister
in that it is trying to create the permission structure
for the Stephen Miller field crackdown, but also a sign
of the desperation of a party that recognizes that it
has gotten itself into a pretty uncomfortable position and that
people are blaming it for the pain that its.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Cuts are causing. Explain what is happening in Portland and
why the costumes? Can you explain that to us, why
people are dressing up in costumes and a little bit
about that the way that works exactly absolutely Portland frog.
We've all seen Portland frog. Right, So here's what we
(39:35):
understand about Donald Trump and Stephen Miller.
Speaker 4 (39:38):
They are trying to create the visuals. They are trying
to create the stories that will justify further violent crackdowns
on scent and on blue cities and states. And that
is part of their overall playbook, that they are trying
to generate the excuses necessary to escalate further. And so,
(39:58):
you know, a classic part of how you respond to authoritarians,
how you respond to attempted repression, is with humor that
exposes the kind of fundamental contradictions of what they are doing.
And that is what we've seen folks doing in Portland. Right, first,
the first person shows up with the frog costumes. Suddenly
there are inflatable costumes all over the place. It's pretty
(40:20):
hard if you are Stephen Miller to say we got
to double our National Guard presence in Portland because there
are a bunch of inflatable frogs walking around outside, right,
So it kind of lets the air out of the
would be out of the the cycle of misinformation and
you know, posing as the excuse for the next round
(40:40):
of excalations. And so I think it's part of a
broader tradition of leaning into humor to expose what an
authoritarian is actually trying to do and to avoid falling
into falling into the traps that they are setting. And
I hope to see a lot of frog costumes out
for No King's protests on Saturday.
Speaker 5 (40:58):
It's also look, I think this is brilliant as a
strategy and it's so organic and it just came together.
But in additionally your point that they don't want to
be ridiculed, the other thing is they want you to
be scared to participate in these protests. And if you
went out for Hands Off or for May Day or
for No Kings one. What you saw was joy. You
(41:20):
saw people having a good freaking time. They were dancing
and they were laughing, they were funny signs, they were
making fun of Trump and the regime, they were meeting
new people. It was a scene and you want to
be part of that. So one of the things I
would ask for anybody thinking of going to their first
protest on Saturday is have a good time. Bring some
friends out, pump up your march with it fun music,
(41:43):
get some dancing going on, make make it a place
where people want to be. This has got to be
a popular movement for democracy. And look, we're doing serious stuff.
We're we're saving democracy, we're fighting against the fascist Yes,
that's real and that's serious. But if this is a
place where people don't feel welcome, people don't feel like
it's a fun place to be, it's not going to
become the mass movement that we need it to be.
(42:05):
So by all means, get that inflatable costume out there, like,
we want more of that because then people are gonna
want to show up.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
And there's also part of this is the hilarious music,
right because the Trump administration wants it to like there
was sort of a Benny Hill music situation. And part
of that is they want optics that look like these
protesters are scary, right, that's right.
Speaker 5 (42:32):
One of my favorite things was seeing a guy with
a big tuba following around the right way, just making
it absolutely ridiculous. Or the people in DC I saw
falling around the members of Ice, or the National Guard
playing the Star Wars Darth Vader music. I think there
are untapped veins of creativity here that folks should explore.
(42:56):
Get creative, make this real. This is not just being
manufactured in some kind of top down way. It's legit.
It's grassroots. The inflatable cartoon characters came out in Portland.
Let's see what comes out in Austin or Minneapolis or
storm like Iowa. I'm curious.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
I would love you guys to explain what it does
to have huge protests, like explain why they're so nervous
about it.
Speaker 4 (43:21):
Absolutely, I will say, I think it's a few different things.
The first is just, quite literally, it disrupts a certain
chilling effect that they are trying, that they're trying to
have take root in America. Right, So much of their
playbook is about creating fear so that people preemptively obey.
It is about having everyone sort of think, oh, I
(43:43):
had better fall in line and doing it. And if
they do that, then you don't even have to like
roll out the full repression agenda. People have already fallen
in line. And that's what we've seen with a bunch
of businesses, that's what we've seen with a bunch of you, yeah, exactly,
And it doesn't work as well when it comes to
regular people. And so a large protest in a period
where it would be fascist is trying to consolidate control,
(44:04):
is a very visible demonstration that we will not be
falling in line, that we are actually going to disrupt
that cycle of anticipatory obedience. So that's like, that's one
big piece. The second is, if we're going to get
out of this, we are going to have to have
so many people do things that the regime does not
want them to do, and so many people not do
things that the region wants them to do. It's going
to look like a thousand different forms of defiance.
Speaker 3 (44:25):
It is.
Speaker 4 (44:26):
It looks like stuff like you know, organizing to push
back on some of those law firms that have have
complied with Trump. It looks like college students and alumni
pushing back on their universities. It looks like people in
their jobs saying, hey, I think that's in illegal order,
or hey, I'm not going to do that. You're going
to have to fire me if you want if you
want me to do it. For people to do that
(44:48):
kind of stuff, they need to feel like they are
part of a movement. They need to feel like it's
more than just me taking an action on my own.
They need to understand that there are millions of other
people who are each kind of grabbing their thread and
pulling at the same time. And so a big event
like this is actually part of how we form that
mass identity of whatever I'm doing, whether I'm you know,
(45:09):
raising my hand at a PTA meeting and saying, hey,
what are we doing to protect students from ice, or
whether I'm, you know, trying to organize within my workplace.
Whatever I'm doing, I'm part of something much bigger, and
so the risk that I'm taking other people are taking
that risk with me. And then the third is it's
it's a mechanism for getting people more involved. As I
was talking about earlier, you really want people to come
(45:30):
out to these events, but also to stay involved in
a local organizing home that helps them take more action
and more escalate action. Right, we want people to be
coming out to a protest, but then we also want
them to be showing up at a town hall and
talking to their local elected representatives. We want them to
be joining consumer boycotts like the push to get to
get Disney to put Kimmel back on the air. We
(45:52):
want them to be organizing in their house of worship
and in their school and in whatever venues they actually have.
And in order to do that, we actually have to
have that local infrastructure, and we have to have people
plugged in. And so we really want to make sure
that when people and come out, we get them engaged
in a way that's ongoing.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
That's really important when people push back on Kimmel. It
was humongous, and it made me wonder if the numbers
are bigger than we think they are because of this
sort of siloed media infrastructure. You guys are interfacing with
these groups, and I mean, I know you don't have
a mechanism for sort of counting the numbers, but those
(46:31):
Kimmel numbers were big, and I just wonder what your
sort of sense is for this Saturday. And then I
know you shouldn't ask people to guess stuff like this
or predict the future, but I'm just curious.
Speaker 5 (46:44):
Look from our own perspective, we've been in this wave
moment that's less than ten months now. We still have
five to eight new indivisible groups wearing every single day Molly,
every single day. We've doubled the number of indivisible groups
this year, We've quadrupled our own membership. We keep it
on extras, specking it to die down, and it doesn't.
It just doesn't. More and more people are coming in organizing.
(47:06):
Shout out to Patsy in Hatboro, Pennsylvania, a town of
eight thousand that just formed Hatborough Indivisible. Welcome to the woman.
That's what it looks like. And so I think what
we saw with Kimmel was an incredible case study and
how this can actually push back against authoritarianism. And I
think the smart way this movement develops going forward. Diano
(47:28):
Kings is looking for those opportunities where the regime threatens
an institution. The institution buckles. Is very clear that they buckled.
There is a clear target who cares that the mass
movement of pro democracy. Folks around the country don't like that.
Those folks have an action item, they carry out that
action item, and then there's a response. I don't know
(47:50):
who the next Disney's going to be, but I can
tell you the way this regime is lasting out, there's
going to be another one. And the good thing about
Disney Kimmel's back on the air. But the better thing
about Disney is all these other media institution saw then said,
oh shit, I don't want that to happen to me.
You don't actually have to fight every single fight. You
do need to win some high profile ones like that,
and so we're looking out for the next opportunities. I
(48:12):
think that's where it's going to go. And I think
there is going to be another institution that finds itself
on the wrong side of this and quickly shifts over,
and that is just going to fuel the movement more
and more.
Speaker 1 (48:22):
So.
Speaker 5 (48:22):
What is this week and going to look like it's
going to be the biggest peaceful protestsman modern American answer?
Speaker 1 (48:28):
I guarantee you, Wow, that's very cool. Stay safe, stay peaceful.
What's the call to action?
Speaker 4 (48:36):
Go to no Kings dot org and find your local
event for this Saturday and show up. Bring your friends,
bring your family, bring your funny signs and your frog costumes.
We want it all.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
Thank you guys so much for joining, Thanks for having
us all.
Speaker 5 (48:50):
Great talking all.
Speaker 2 (48:56):
Jesse Canon Mai junk Fast. So one of the things
a lot of po don't realize is when you hear
about Trump in a third term and how stupid this is.
A lot of this is because one person talks about
it all day long. His name is Steve Bennon. He
went on the world's stupidest show, which is called Batya Wait.
Speaker 1 (49:14):
We need a minute here on Bodya because you know
who batya ish.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
I have followed Botia for longer than I would like.
Speaker 1 (49:20):
Unfortunately, Botia used to be a big lefty.
Speaker 2 (49:24):
And then she decided I will defend Trump no matter
what and make a fool of myself on cable television
because it's the brand. Baby.
Speaker 1 (49:31):
Let's hear it, Jesse. Cut to the video clues.
Speaker 7 (49:34):
So let me ask you about Trump twenty twenty eight.
We have a twenty second amendment which bar is anybody
from running for a third term. Do you think that
there's that's not a barrier for him? Or how do
you see that I.
Speaker 6 (49:48):
Think that there are many different alternatives that at the
appropriate time after the midterms in twenty six we will
roll out. But I think there are many different alternatives
to make sure that President Trump is on the ballot,
and if he's on the ballot, he'll win.
Speaker 1 (50:03):
So Batya, who I used to know is a liberal
before she decided nothing matters. Look, man, Donald Trump cannot
run again. He is lame duck. My man Steve Bannon
knows that, and he knows that that is a position
of weakness, and so he wants people to think that
Donald Trump can run again, but he cannot and he
will not. And the other thing is by then he'll
(50:25):
be eighty three. And there we go. You're welcome, Jesse kenn.
Speaker 2 (50:29):
God knows what he's mumbling about. Aside from not getting
into heaven by them eighty.
Speaker 1 (50:34):
Three, I'm sure he'll be just sharp as a tech
at eighty three.
Speaker 2 (50:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:38):
That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in
every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best
minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If
you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend
and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening,
Hi, I'm Molli John Fast and this is Fast Politics,
where we discussed the top political headlines with some of
today's best minds, and Donald Trump says, I don't think
there's anything that's going to get me into heaven. We
have such a great show for you today. The Society
for the Rule of Law's own George Conway stops by
to talk about Trump's increasingly erratic and disturbing behavior. Then
(00:24):
we'll talk to indivisibles Leah Greenberg and Ezra Levin about
meeting this moment with this week's peaceful No King's Rally.
But first, the story is the media is missing so.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Mally JP Morgan, one of the biggest financial institutes in
our country. They said that America is going broke slowly
as the national depth balloons in tariff revenue looks well questionable.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
You are really into this story about the dead. I
love you.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
It's always telling when the people who want to keep
our economy optimistic have to go.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
I mean, the debt is a huge problem and Republicans
used to care about it, but they don't anymore. And
so since they don't care about it, I can't care
about it. No, this is stupid we grew the debt
by the way we grew the debt with the BBB
three point four trillion dollars. Why so that Trump could
give Ice billions and billions of dollars. Yes, his paramidlitary
(01:22):
force that wears facial coverings. That group needs more money
so that they can detain people who look a certain way.
We call it a Kavanaugh stopped sensioned by Justice Brett Kavanaugh,
who said, in fact that he's fine with racial profiling.
So billions of dollars to Trump's paramilitary force so that
(01:45):
they can stop people who look hispanic. I don't think
it's a great use of our tax dollars personally, but
that's just me.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Yeah, I can't say I find this good, but I
think it's always a grim economic forecast, while or Trump's
whole financial cabinet trying to pretend that we're not going
down to a bad place in our economy.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
All billionaires, a cabinet filled with billionaires, all of whom
want to lessen their tax burden so that they can
just get whatever they want. And these are people who
know better but don't pare because they want to pay
us taxes.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
All right, Well, now, we're going to get to the
really fun stuff. So Politico, known as.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
A inside the Beltway both siding their way to autocracy,
couldn't have put it better. I love them putting the
fun and fascism one one two siding article.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
At the time, Well they've put up a pretty ugly
one on one side. I love Hitler. Leaked messages exposed
young Republicans racist Chad. I'm going to be honest with you.
They led with the I love Hitler. There's like ten
flavors of awful, awful messages in these things, because they
got thousands of private messages that showed many of the
young GOP leaders, you know, all young Republican groups, and
(03:04):
they are talking about murdering their enemies and the Democratic Party,
that the gas chambers aren't good enough. Things like that.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Yeah, so they refer to black people as monkeys and
quote of the watermelon people mused about putting their political
opponents in gas chambers. They talked about raping their enemies
and driving them to suicide. And a lot of Republicans
who they believe supported slavery Kansas young Republican vice chair
used the N word. That is probably all you need
(03:34):
to know about this moment in history. These people are
not pretending to be white supremacists. It's not a troll.
It's who they are.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
It's not a troll, it's a brand.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
By the way, everyone that votes know is going to
the gas chamber. They're going to say they were kidding. Also,
can I just tell you, like, these are the people
who are running the Republican Party. These are people the
general counsel to the New York State Republicans. I'm ready
to watch people burn now new York's National Committee member.
These are telegram chats leaders of the Republican Party in
(04:09):
New York, Kansas, Arizona, Vermont. These new generation of GOP
activists talk like they are strom Thurman on crack cocaine
with a little more racism, with.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
A little bit more four Chan.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
I'd say strom Thurman meets four Chan meets crack cocaine.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yeah, I think you know a lot of times like
you and I'll be talking to people who are a
little less online aka everyone on this world, and they
wonder why, like a Senator Mike Lee, a Mormon in Utah,
is tweeting such psychotic things, And the answer is, these
are their staffers and their staffers are writing this shit
and may they may approve it, they may say no,
don't take it down. But at the end of the day,
(04:52):
the quackery does trickle upwards, unlike their views on the economy.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Yeah, this stuff is so incredibly I mean, it's not
shocking because we know this is what they believe, but
they do in fact that One good thing is they
are not completely aligned with Trump, though they are somewhat
aligned with Hitler.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
I was gonna say, the bad news is they're not
aligned with Trump because they don't think he's going hard enough.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Right, But Trump's too busy burning the Epstein file. Says
Alex Dreyer, the chair of the Kansas Young Republicans. This
is so bad. This is so, so, so bad, and
it's bad for a number of reasons. One is because
these people knew this was a semi public chat and
still talk like this to these people believe this, right,
(05:40):
that's pretty fucking bad. And three, you know, Donald Trump
and two point zero has created a pro mission structure
for this. So in every which way, this is real
fucking that.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
So let's talk about my hero. We have a few
governors who are doing a great job pushing it back
against the Trump administration. One is my boy, Governor J. B. Pritzker,
and he's looking to prosecute ICE agents in Chicago.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Yeah, here's the thing. You can be a craven coward
and still get prosecuted. I'm looking at all of these
Republicans who have just bent the knee and still will
ultimately end up on the wrong side of Trump. Or
you can be brave, and when you're brave, you know
you win. You ultimately win. So Pritzker is pushing back
(06:24):
and the only way to push back against Trump is
to do stuff like this price secuting ICE agents in
Chicago talking to state prosecutors. By the way, Pritzker told
Fox thirty two Chicago, the tables will turn one day.
These people should recognize that they're not going to get
prosecuted today though they probably should be. They will eventually.
And that's the thing, Like we talked, We talked about
(06:46):
this so much in this podcast, and there's a reason
for that. Because the America we're living in right now,
this is not going to be the America of a
year from now. It's not even the it was not
the America six months ago. Like this is a very
very dark moment in American life. But it's also not
the norm. And eventually we're going to get back to
(07:07):
what is where we have laws, and it's not gonna
be good for them. It's going to be good for
the rest of us because it will mean we'll live
in a nation of laws again. But for now, it's
important to behave that we like we still live in
a nation of laws, even if it feels like some
Republicans don't have to follow those laws because the Supreme
Court has told them they don't. I think it's wrong
(07:28):
to assume Pritzker is doing this because of his ambitions.
I think it's right to assume that Pritzker is doing
this because he understands what the right thing is and
knows that this is it.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
When Pritzker said to videotape people, this is the endgame,
is that there will be a day where we're able
to prosecute those And what it also does is it
makes these ice officials think twice about their abuses. They're
joining guns at citizens, they're beating.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Up journalists, shooting a priest, an episcopal priest with a
pepper ball, yes, yes, at his head.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Yeah, great stuff. So if this gives them pause about
their lawlessness. It helps protect his people, and I do
believe Pritzker is a true believer and that type of stuff.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Yeah me too, man.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Okay, well, now we get to the Washington Post, which
has decided to cover itself in the opposite of Corey
Mark Thiessen a pursues Beth the Post for Kwai while
says we're now a conservative opinion page.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
This is the opposite of brave, a very very very
very very craven Jeff Bezos, worried about shareholder value, does
not give a thought about American democracy, owns the Washington Post.
In season one, he used to care about American democracy.
(08:49):
Season two, not so much. That guy. He has decided
that he doesn't want an opinion paid to the Washing
But by the way, he could sell the Washington Post
anytime you want and we'd all be happy. This was
what Jeff Bezos said. Now they only write about free markets.
They love a free market, which is kind of hilarious
(09:09):
because Donald Trump does not like a free market. He
is not a free trader. He is a terrifying lunatic.
So they like free markets and personal liberties, which I
guess means again personal Lifgines runs you right into a
nice agent. But okay, these are the things that Jeff
Bezos has decided. So basically, the Washington Post opinion page
(09:32):
is now the Wall Street Journal opinion page, but slightly
worse and you know, wrong side of history. Jeff Bezos welcome.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Some of the five major broadcast networks say they're not
going to sign Pete Heiggs's new Pentagon press policy where
you have to be nice to him and not post leeks.
What do you see in here?
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Yeah, he's very You gotta be nice to Pete and
you can't be fat. You gotta be nice, you can't
be fat. This is a song that you've gone too far.
And look, had everybody done this when Trump had made
the ap call it the Gulf of America, had all
of the media outlets been like, we're out, think of
(10:13):
how differently this all would have gone. But this is
a great example of how solidarity works. Everyone signed this,
with the exception of one news outlet. Can you guess
what news outlet it is?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Jesse. It begins with an F and ends with anaks.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Really nope, yeah, one American.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
News Oh yeah, hell yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Oh yeah. When Fox is too intellectual, come on down
to oh A and n President confirmed they did, in
fact do it. They have signed the document because honestly,
when you work for Trump, you sign the doc. Solidarity works.
(10:56):
George Conway is the president of the Society for the
Law and the host of George Conway explains it all
too Sarah Longwell, George Conway, Hi, welcome to Fast Politics.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
Thank you for having me once again for the ten
thousandth time.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
So JP Morgan warns that America is going broke. Who
could have seen this coming?
Speaker 3 (11:20):
Did you see?
Speaker 4 (11:21):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (11:21):
I don't know who could have seen it coming. Who
could have seen that electing a man who's bankrupted so
many companies would bankrupt the United States? Who could have
foreseen that?
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Do you? Is it weird to watch someone just dismantle
the country in the name of conservatism when not actually
being a conservative.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Well, I think we're all kind of used to it now.
I mean, it's not conservatism. It's nihilistic destruction for reasons
that really have nothing to do with policy. And that's
where we are. I mean, this is this is who
he is, and this is these are the people he's
surrounded himself with.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
This is a phenomenon. I know, you've studied and you're
sort of a master of explaining people like Scott Passant,
who before you went into the admin people were like, Oh,
that guy's normal, he'll be normal. Why have people like
him and Marco Rubio?
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Look, I mean, they're the most they're they're they're the
most normal in the bunch, but they're completely outnumbered. I mean,
at least during the first Trump administration, you had more
normalcy there. Even though those people ended up in a
lot of ways, a lot of them compromised themselves, but
they were at least kind of understood what they were
dealing with, and they were willing to check his worst impulses.
(12:39):
And they actually, for example, Chief of Staff General John
Kelly understood he was dealing with a mentally unsound person.
In fact, brought in a book written by psychiatrists and
psychologists that talked about Trump's various mental maladies and incapacities.
So they understood they had to check him and restrict
(13:01):
him in some way. The fellow from Gary Cohen from
goldn Sachs used to take things off his desk. They
used to tell him he couldn't do things that tell
him it wouldn't be a good idea to do it.
They told him that things were illegal. The Justice Department,
people who refused to go in with him on overturning
(13:22):
the constitution told him they would resign on mass On
Moss so many examples of people basically telling him no.
Secretary Esper and General Maddis telling him no, no, we
can't call out the National Guard for the George Floyd protests.
Those people are all gone. You do have some people
(13:42):
who are relatively normal, as you point out Marco Rubio
and Scott Bessen. But if you go all in in
this administration, you are compromised. You will compromise yourself. You
are out lumbered by the people who are mentally unsent.
I mean, we didn't you know, one of the things
in the first Trump administration, you did not have the
(14:06):
people who were deeply unsound, mentally and deeply disturbed who
were running things. But now you have Steven Miller has
more power than ever. You have RFK who is completely bombers.
You have all of these people who are just unwell
and they don't care about anything about the country, but
(14:28):
they care about their own status, and they care about
pleasing the boss, and so anything goes so that's the
big difference.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
One of the new phenomenons that I think is new
from Trump one point zero is this where Donald Trump
tries to out crazy a member of his administration. So
when he was with RFK Junior, he said, RFK was
like maybe Tiland and awe and then Trump went like
(14:56):
whole hog on vaccines. And you saw that with Pete
Head says too. Pete Hegg says called everyone in to
have a meeting, and the meeting was like, don't be fat.
And then Trump was like, and I will speak next,
and he was like, there are the enemy within, so
explain that, because that's new.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
They're all unwell. I don't know any other way to
do to explain it. And you have a leader who
is a narcissistic sociopath, as I've said so often, doesn't
care about anyone other than himself, lacks any moral capacity
for judgment, lacks any remorse, lacks any recognition or understanding
of truth. Truth is whatever comes to his mind that
(15:37):
he feels he wants to impart, and it's usually something
that involves his own glorification. And he now has his way,
he has control. There are people no one is willing
to tell him no, and if they do, they are gone,
including US attorneys who say, well, we can't bring these charges.
(15:57):
So basically we have a sociopath an unstable mentally unstable
government because the people at its head, and especially the
one who had been checked in the first term to
some extent, even though it didn't seem that way at
the time, is now unchecked.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
And then you have these women, which is a little
bit new, like Lindsay Hall again, these women who are
sort of his hench women who come in I guess
were They were.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
Not necessarily new in this sense. There have always been
women around him. I think I don't know where I
got this information. Who will do his bidding. I don't
think there's anything new about it. I honestly don't, And
I think that, you know, I mean, we saw Sarasuck,
Huckabee Sanders, we saw my ex wife. You know. They
(16:46):
threw their lot in with Trump, and in a weird way,
they empathized with Trump. Because what happens is that Trump
brings you into his fold, you end up defending him,
treat him like kind of a wayward child, but it's
their child, So attacks on him they view as attacks
(17:07):
on themselves and then they get attacks, attacks that are
made on them, bonds them to Trump, and it's a
it's a very it's a very bizarre phenomenon, and I
don't but again again, I don't think that's unique. I mean,
I think I think it happens with the men too.
I think there's a Stockholm syndrome aspect to me. But
I also think again, to go back to the original
point I'm making, is that the people who surround him
(17:31):
now are the worst of the worst, and there aren't
enough people. Even the bad people in the prior administration.
Those people understood when things had gone too far my life.
They understood, you know, they understood when things went too far,
and they're willing to, you know, at least try to
organize themselves and place themselves in a way that could
(17:55):
slow things down, even if they weren't you know, thoroughly principled,
and they didn't you know, resign out of protest or
do anything like that.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
And there is none of that now. In fact, it
is this sort of warp speed kind of thing, which
I wonder, like, you know, there was this piece in
the Wall Street Journal this week about how Trump was
so embolden that the middle East thing had made him
just as involved in as we've ever seen him. That
tends to lead to him overplaying.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
His hand, correct, I mean, And that's how ultimately narcissistic
sociopaths who attained some position of power, they often they
run out their strength because they don't know limits and
they don't care about limits. And they also, you know,
they're obsessed with revenge, and they're obsessed with their own
(18:46):
glorification and their power, and then they begin to think
that they are invincible. And you know, I mean it
ends in the bunker, so to speak. I mean, if
you ever watched the movie Downfall, which I've always urged
people to watch the German Langue, which film about the
last ten days of the in the Fear Bunker. You know,
it was a completely unreal place, and you have this
(19:10):
man who was leading everybody into destruction and it was
a result of his They called it at the time megalomania.
And that's what we're seeing today with Trump.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Now.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
The question is when people like that overstep and they
finally go too far and they overreach the way Hitler
did with Operation Barbarossa, And the question is how big
is the blast radius? When they blow themselves up. And
the sooner they blow themselves up actually the better, because
the longer it goes, the more destruction they create. And
(19:41):
that's always been up. Mean, you've heard me use the
term blast radius with Trump year for years, I think.
And the question is when he ultimately will blow himself up,
The question is what does he take with him.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
You know, he ran as a populist. We're seeing a
lot of people talking about how they're just disappointed with
a lot of what he's done. I don't know if
it's the same as us time or more or less.
But talk us through what you think. Do you think
he comprehends that. Do you think he doesn't care his
polling is real bad?
Speaker 3 (20:14):
First of all, I don't think they give him those
poll numbers anymore. Who wants who is going to volunteer
to bring that information? And so you don't think he
sees them? Oh he may, but he doesn't believe them.
He doesn't know, He doesn't, right. He believes what he
wants to believe, all right, And he constructs his own reality.
(20:36):
And if you try to defy that reality, then you
fall out of favor, or he thinks you're conspiring against him.
Because he is, you know, as part of being a
malignant narcissist. He's not narcissistic, sociopathic or psychopathic. He's also paranoid.
So all of these things hey play a role in.
(20:59):
He doesn't recognize his limits and now he's sort of
obsessed with his own mortality. So he's going to go
for broken a lot of ways. So it could get
a lot worse.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
And that's like the legacy stuff, the Noble Peace prize stuff.
Is that what you're thinking about it?
Speaker 3 (21:18):
Absolutely? I think that that's you know, it's bizarre, but
that's how he thinks. But it's only you know, he
doesn't care about peace. He only cares about the prize.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
So right, But now do you think not winning that
prize or you think he just thinks he'll get it
next time, or.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Well, he thinks he's wrongfully deprived the prize, and I
think he will seek vengeance upon people he thinks stood
in the way of him getting the prize. I mean,
who knows. I mean, he's just a very unwell man.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
One of the things I've been really struck by with
you is you have been brave. You know, in Trump
one point out it was easy to be brave. Everybody
was brave now now, So really tell me why I think.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
He's here to be brave now, because we can now
spunger more more than ever before.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
We've seen a lot of people really just be craven opportunists. Yes,
why are you brave?
Speaker 3 (22:15):
I don't think I'm brave. I don't view myself as brave.
I view myself as a realistic someone who basically tries
to figure things out and figure out what the right
answer is from what I have in front of me.
And I don't know how you can rationally escape the
(22:36):
conclusion that the country is in deep trouble because it
is operated by people who fundamentally don't believe in the
rule of law, don't believe in the public good, who
seek personal and financial gratification at the expense of others others' rights,
regardless of what they should be entitled to, and they
(23:00):
only care about themselves and that's who they are.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Why do you think that there are so many people
like Tim Apple who are I mean, you think it's
just they feel the well, yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
I think Tim Apple, Tim Apple, Tim Cook. So look,
I think basically people are so accustomed to playing their
own role and being in their own lean that they
don't view themselves as part of a polity, and they
put their roles as director of a company, as CEO
(23:39):
of a company, as presidents of the university or head
a chairman of a law firm ahead of their roles
as citizens. And if you are you know, engaging in
economic economic activity, and you have a corrupt government and
you are seeking to maximize profits, and maximizing profit requires
(24:00):
you to give a silly award to a silly man
like Tim Cook did, or pay a bribe like the
government of cut Our, or do any of those things,
and you are trying to basically maximize wealth, maximize personal interest.
(24:21):
It is perfectly rational to put your interests, your personal interests,
or your corporate interests, of your salary, you know, above
your obligations as a citizen and a human being. It's
not right, it's not morally right. It doesn't show character.
But we have, you know, that is one of the problems,
(24:42):
That is one of the reasons why we have Donald
Trump is people do not think of themselves as part
you know, they don't think of themselves principally as moral actors.
They don't consider their actions to be morally consequential because
they convince themselves they can't do anything about it. They
can't stand in the way of this one person can't
(25:04):
stand in the way of the government. So let's you know,
let's just let's just cave and and what happens is
it's again, it's like a you know, a gain. Theorist
would say, it's like the tragedy of the commons or
the prisoner's dilemma. It's like if everybody behaves that way,
then we all lose, you know, it's a it's.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
So why do you behave that? Why?
Speaker 3 (25:28):
I mean I because I because I I can't. I
wouldn't be able to live with myself if I didn't.
And I also have an advantage over a lot of people, right,
I mean I do. I have to concede I have
an advantage over other people. I work thirty years in
a law fer. I saved up a lot of money.
I don't need to work anymore. And one of the
things that is great about where I am today is
I could say whatever the fuck I want, and I
(25:51):
enjoy doing that. I get a pleasure doing that. I
don't like I wish I didn't have to do that.
I'd rather be, you know, I mean, it's side. I
could rather be spring skiing in the in the Andes.
I guess I don't know if they still have spring skiing,
but that's what I'd rather be doing.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
I don't want to compliment you, because I know how
I know how much you hate that.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
I don't think. I don't think. I mean, someone makes
I should get credit for doing what should be done,
all right, And that's not meant to criticize people. It's
not meant to criticize people who are just like you know,
the FBI agent who's trying to serve the public and
get his pension, and and and so on. I can't
blame people for making the best of their situations as
(26:39):
they are, and they have families to feel. I don't,
you know, I don't fault that, But I do think
that a lot of people who are in a position
to do something, just take a stand, are putting their
desire to get a third home somewhere above above the
interests of the public. And I think that's very very
short again, just against the interest the polity, against the
(27:01):
interests of the public, against their own freedom and their
own rights, and surrendering that to essentially, you know, authoritarian lunatics,
and they're doing that and they don't have to do that.
But the more they do that, the more it is
that everybody has to surrender. So that's that's you know,
that's why it's important for people to stand.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Up lightning ground. Who is the most dangerous member of
Trump's cabinet maybe RFK.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
I think you can make an argument with that. Hegseeth
is a is a cipher Rubio, right, he doesn't arise
to the level of cipher. Also, I mean mostly the
cabinet is cipher, consists of ciphers. Gnome is basically a character.
She's just a cost player. Who else? Who else? We
(27:47):
I think the people who are the most dangerous I
don't think they're necessarily in the cabin I think Stephen
Miller is dangerous, right, he is in some way? Yeah,
I mean I think those people, the people who have
who actually care about what they're doing, as opposed to
(28:07):
just going along for the ride, which Rubio is doing
the beston is doing. Christine nom is doing it because
she likes the attention and the videos and the performance art.
I think Seth iSIG Seth is doing it for the
same thing. I mean, maybe maybe it's the Officers Club
bars throughout the world. I don't know, so I think,
(28:31):
you know, but the but the people who really have
like I mean, in the case of Russ Vaught, I mean,
did you hear that quote about somebody said of him,
some person in the Trump administration, that he's wanted to
dismantle the government since puberty? I mean, what is that? Right?
And we know and we know even Miller is a
fundamentally a sick, a sick man. I mean, he would
(28:52):
he would have fit right in other than you know,
this Jewish heritage. You would have fit right in, you know,
to the Nazi regime.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Not good, not good. George Conway, will you come back?
Speaker 3 (29:03):
Always come back.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Leah Greenberg and Ezra Levin are the founders of Indivisible.
Welcome too fast politics, you guys.
Speaker 5 (29:15):
It's great to be here. We're excited.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
So we have the team behind the No Kings March
and numerous other things. So to explain what you do
at indivisible and a little bit about how you got
into this, absolutely well.
Speaker 4 (29:29):
At Indivisible, we work with a grassroots movement that is
led by regular people all over the country who have
decided that they need to get involved and they need
to do something. We got started in twenty sixteen, shortly
after Donald Trump was elected the first time. Ezra and
I we are married, We are former congressional staffers. We
were absolutely furious with everything that was happening, and we
(29:50):
decided to take all the knowledge that we had as
former congressional staffers, turn it inside out and make it
available to folks around the country so they could organize
effectively to get together locally and pressure their elected officials
to push back against Trump and trump Ism. That was
the basic idea. We wrote a Google doc guide to
how to do that. It went viral. Suddenly we were
(30:11):
working with thousands of local hubs for communicaty activism all
over the country who were calling themselves Indivisible Groups, which
was the.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Title of the guide.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
And we have been on a journey with those folks
all over the country ever since.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
I remember seeing that Google doc as we do have
anything else you want to add here in this.
Speaker 5 (30:31):
Well, that Google doc was spread around like wildfire, and
we started getting all this incoming from all around the
country and it al said the exact same thing, which
is this guide is full of typos and so one thing, enerneybody,
you've got a lesson from this. It's if you put
something on the internet and then people read it, they
will let you know the problems that they have with it.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Yeah, this is a phenomenon that I know all too well. Yes,
continue well.
Speaker 5 (30:55):
But then the other thing they did, they started forming
these local groups and it's just been a real honor
to be part of of this grassroots movement of normal
everyday people, nurses and IT technicians and lawyers and teachers
who are out there organizing in their home turf. I mean,
this is what we need. Democracy is a participatory sport.
Speaker 6 (31:12):
Lea.
Speaker 5 (31:12):
You often say politics is too important to be left
to the politicians. I think that's right. We're facing a
democracy crisis right now, and we can't engage as consumers alone.
We've got to engage as active participants. That's how we
actually change things.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
I spent a lot of time thinking about like why
Trump two point zero is significantly scarier than Trump one
point Oh, you guys interface with a lot of people
in the base who are activists or mostly normal people
who want to make their voices heard. Is it more
people than last time? And are they more agitated.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
It is more people than last time. We are seeing
kind of a rate of ongoing formation of new local,
indivisible groups that wildly outpaces what we saw in twenty seventeen.
The kinds of mass mobilizations that we are seeing are
take place at a scale that dwarfs a lot of
what we saw in twenty seventeen twenty eighteen. I'll just
give you one quick example we do well. The single
(32:09):
largest mass mobile is the same day mass mobilization that
was called more nationally in the first Trump term, where
the families belong together marches to protect operation. In twenty eighteen,
those were incredible. There were about seven hundred and fifty
around the country. This year, we saw with hands off,
about thirteen hundred events and rallies around the country with
no kings in June twenty one hundred. We are heading
(32:30):
into twenty five hundred all over the country, reach into
really really rural, really red areas that might not have
previously had much in the way of visible progressive pro
democracy organizing.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
So I would say that what.
Speaker 4 (32:44):
We're seeing is a really extraordinary and massive ground swell.
And what has been so different about this time compared
to twenty seventeen is not necessarily how regular people have responded.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
It has been the.
Speaker 4 (32:55):
Total collapse of elite institutions, elected officials, leaders who are
ostensibly supposed to hold up some corner of the fight
for democracy and have simply declined to do so.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
As we do. You have thoughts about that. I think
that's totally right, But I'm curious if you want to
add anything.
Speaker 5 (33:11):
Well, Lee is the real thought leader of this duo
parrot which he says, but in a louder, more confident,
white male voice.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
We'd love to see it.
Speaker 5 (33:20):
So I agree with all that, But just to give
a sense, like I grew up in rural Texas, Hayes County, Texas,
there are three No Kings Day events in rural Hayes County, Texas. Wow,
we're in Burns, Oregon. That's population twenty seven hundred. We're
in Bryceon City, North Carolina, population fifteen hundred. Like they're
going to be big events in Washington, d C. And
New York City and Chicago, and that's going to be awesome,
(33:41):
But twenty five hundred events. Just to underline what Leah
said in my white male voice, that's incredible, Like that
is incredible. I mean, this is a historic level of
peaceful protests that we have not seen in modern American history.
The need for that is so great, exactly for the
reason Lea's said, This isn't just congres failing as yet again,
(34:01):
This isn't just Donald Trump being an idiot and an
asshole like he always is. This isn't authoritary and breakthrough moment.
And that means more than just your elected officials. It
means media institutions and news organizations and law firms and
universities who are being bullied and need to understand there's
countervailing force out there, that this moment that we're in
(34:21):
is temporary and that it will be replaced by an
era of reform and accountability. And you'd better get your
ass on the right side of history otherwise your reputation
is going to be permanently damaged.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
God I think about that all the time because my
grandfather was jailed by the House of an American Activities
during the McArthur era. And like, if anything, we are
in a new you know, a sort of a moment
of backlash to backlash to backlash. So what is so
clearly immoral in this moment is going to be very
(34:52):
clearly immoral to everyone in about five minutes. So it's
shocking to be that we're even seeing universities think about
making deals with this guy.
Speaker 5 (35:00):
Look, ICE is already terrorizing communities around the country, and
the money flowing into it has just started to flow.
One hundred and seventy one billion dollars flooding into a
secret police force. You think that's going to look better
as the months stick by. You think that's going to
look better when all of the Proud Boys are on
the federal payroll. No, you have a choice. Get on
the right side of history now. Otherwise. Look, new leaders
(35:23):
are going to come to the forefront and you're going
to be in mind.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
Yeah, I think that's really true. If you're listening to
this and you're wondering what you can do, talk us
through what that looks like, what the options are there.
Speaker 4 (35:34):
Well, first and foremost, we're going to tell you to
come out to protest with us on Saturday. You are
probably pretty close to your nearest No King's event. In fact,
pretty much no matter where you are, wherever you are
in the country, you are pretty close to a No
King's event. So find your event, get your American flags,
get ready, go on out and be in community with
(35:55):
that big group of people who are collectively coming out
and fighting for to my sie. But you know, we
also want that to be the beginning, not the end, right, Like,
we want people to be finding their local home for
organized activism, for getting involved, for pushing back within your community,
you know, organizing, whether that's to support immigrants who are
under attack, whether that's mutual aid for people who as
(36:17):
livelihoods are being harmed by the Trump cuts, whether that
is getting getting involved in elections and helping to push
back in an electro way.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
It's going to take all of us.
Speaker 4 (36:28):
Collectively, you know, as kind of a massive symphony of
defiance pushing back against this administration. And the best way
to get that started is to get involved with a
local organizing home.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
So one of the things that we're seeing a lot
of is that Republicans are really freaked out by these protests,
and their message is that the Zantifa that this is
not okay, that this is so talk us through some
of these talking points and why you think they're so
agitated about those.
Speaker 5 (37:00):
There's such utter bullshit you almost have to take it
as a compliment. Molly, right, like, they ignore you, then
they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
We're one step from winning, Molly. They're fighting now and
they don't know how to do it. They are terrified
of peaceful protest. And that's true of authoritarian regimes all
over the world.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Right.
Speaker 5 (37:17):
The Trump attacks on our states, on our communities, on
our government, that doesn't come from a place of strength.
This guy's unpopular. He's a lang dunk president. He's on
the way out. He's worried that his grip on power
has a time limitation on it, and the time is ticking,
and so he's lashing out. Authoritarians want you to feel lone.
And so this promise that the largest peaceful protest in
(37:39):
modern American history is coming together this week and ease terrifying,
and so they're trying to attack it. They can't even
say no Kings if you watch their talking points, if
you listen to them, they can't even say the words
no Kings because they know how unobjectionable that would be,
so they make up some other words about it. So
I mainly thank them for the free publicity, and then
on a serious note, they're trying to up some fear
(38:01):
they're trying to disincentivize people from exercising their First Amendment rights.
And so what we do in response to that is
we train people on de escalation, and we train people
on safety. We make sure every single one of these
events has a safety lead and a safety plan, and
every single interview you see us do you will see
us emphasizing the non violence, peaceful nature of this. This
is us protecting our constitutional rights. And that's it, and
(38:25):
that's enough. That's enough to be impactful, and it's enough
to make it important, and it's enough to scare them.
But Jesus out of the Republicans in Congress and the
members of this regime who would like to see those
rights go.
Speaker 4 (38:35):
Away, I agree with all that, and I would also
just add I think we're also seeing that they are
they understand that they have gotten themselves into a pretty
uncomfortable position on the shutdown that they are you know,
the American people are blaming them for keeping the government
shut down rather than giving folks healthcare, and they are
kind of just desperately casting around for any message that
will take the heat off of them. So I think
(38:56):
we've got to see this as both you know, sinister
in that it is trying to create the permission structure
for the Stephen Miller field crackdown, but also a sign
of the desperation of a party that recognizes that it
has gotten itself into a pretty uncomfortable position and that
people are blaming it for the pain that its.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Cuts are causing. Explain what is happening in Portland and
why the costumes? Can you explain that to us, why
people are dressing up in costumes and a little bit
about that the way that works exactly absolutely Portland frog.
We've all seen Portland frog. Right, So here's what we
(39:35):
understand about Donald Trump and Stephen Miller.
Speaker 4 (39:38):
They are trying to create the visuals. They are trying
to create the stories that will justify further violent crackdowns
on scent and on blue cities and states. And that
is part of their overall playbook, that they are trying
to generate the excuses necessary to escalate further. And so,
(39:58):
you know, a classic part of how you respond to authoritarians,
how you respond to attempted repression, is with humor that
exposes the kind of fundamental contradictions of what they are doing.
And that is what we've seen folks doing in Portland. Right, first,
the first person shows up with the frog costumes. Suddenly
there are inflatable costumes all over the place. It's pretty
(40:20):
hard if you are Stephen Miller to say we got
to double our National Guard presence in Portland because there
are a bunch of inflatable frogs walking around outside, right,
So it kind of lets the air out of the
would be out of the the cycle of misinformation and
you know, posing as the excuse for the next round
(40:40):
of excalations. And so I think it's part of a
broader tradition of leaning into humor to expose what an
authoritarian is actually trying to do and to avoid falling
into falling into the traps that they are setting. And
I hope to see a lot of frog costumes out
for No King's protests on Saturday.
Speaker 5 (40:58):
It's also look, I think this is brilliant as a
strategy and it's so organic and it just came together.
But in additionally your point that they don't want to
be ridiculed, the other thing is they want you to
be scared to participate in these protests. And if you
went out for Hands Off or for May Day or
for No Kings one. What you saw was joy. You
(41:20):
saw people having a good freaking time. They were dancing
and they were laughing, they were funny signs, they were
making fun of Trump and the regime, they were meeting
new people. It was a scene and you want to
be part of that. So one of the things I
would ask for anybody thinking of going to their first
protest on Saturday is have a good time. Bring some
friends out, pump up your march with it fun music,
(41:43):
get some dancing going on, make make it a place
where people want to be. This has got to be
a popular movement for democracy. And look, we're doing serious stuff.
We're we're saving democracy, we're fighting against the fascist Yes,
that's real and that's serious. But if this is a
place where people don't feel welcome, people don't feel like
it's a fun place to be, it's not going to
become the mass movement that we need it to be.
(42:05):
So by all means, get that inflatable costume out there, like,
we want more of that because then people are gonna
want to show up.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
And there's also part of this is the hilarious music,
right because the Trump administration wants it to like there
was sort of a Benny Hill music situation. And part
of that is they want optics that look like these
protesters are scary, right, that's right.
Speaker 5 (42:32):
One of my favorite things was seeing a guy with
a big tuba following around the right way, just making
it absolutely ridiculous. Or the people in DC I saw
falling around the members of Ice, or the National Guard
playing the Star Wars Darth Vader music. I think there
are untapped veins of creativity here that folks should explore.
(42:56):
Get creative, make this real. This is not just being
manufactured in some kind of top down way. It's legit.
It's grassroots. The inflatable cartoon characters came out in Portland.
Let's see what comes out in Austin or Minneapolis or
storm like Iowa. I'm curious.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
I would love you guys to explain what it does
to have huge protests, like explain why they're so nervous
about it.
Speaker 4 (43:21):
Absolutely, I will say, I think it's a few different things.
The first is just, quite literally, it disrupts a certain
chilling effect that they are trying, that they're trying to
have take root in America. Right, So much of their
playbook is about creating fear so that people preemptively obey.
It is about having everyone sort of think, oh, I
(43:43):
had better fall in line and doing it. And if
they do that, then you don't even have to like
roll out the full repression agenda. People have already fallen
in line. And that's what we've seen with a bunch
of businesses, that's what we've seen with a bunch of you, yeah, exactly,
And it doesn't work as well when it comes to
regular people. And so a large protest in a period
where it would be fascist is trying to consolidate control,
(44:04):
is a very visible demonstration that we will not be
falling in line, that we are actually going to disrupt
that cycle of anticipatory obedience. So that's like, that's one
big piece. The second is, if we're going to get
out of this, we are going to have to have
so many people do things that the regime does not
want them to do, and so many people not do
things that the region wants them to do. It's going
to look like a thousand different forms of defiance.
Speaker 3 (44:25):
It is.
Speaker 4 (44:26):
It looks like stuff like you know, organizing to push
back on some of those law firms that have have
complied with Trump. It looks like college students and alumni
pushing back on their universities. It looks like people in
their jobs saying, hey, I think that's in illegal order,
or hey, I'm not going to do that. You're going
to have to fire me if you want if you
want me to do it. For people to do that
(44:48):
kind of stuff, they need to feel like they are
part of a movement. They need to feel like it's
more than just me taking an action on my own.
They need to understand that there are millions of other
people who are each kind of grabbing their thread and
pulling at the same time. And so a big event
like this is actually part of how we form that
mass identity of whatever I'm doing, whether I'm you know,
(45:09):
raising my hand at a PTA meeting and saying, hey,
what are we doing to protect students from ice, or
whether I'm, you know, trying to organize within my workplace.
Whatever I'm doing, I'm part of something much bigger, and
so the risk that I'm taking other people are taking
that risk with me. And then the third is it's
it's a mechanism for getting people more involved. As I
was talking about earlier, you really want people to come
(45:30):
out to these events, but also to stay involved in
a local organizing home that helps them take more action
and more escalate action. Right, we want people to be
coming out to a protest, but then we also want
them to be showing up at a town hall and
talking to their local elected representatives. We want them to
be joining consumer boycotts like the push to get to
get Disney to put Kimmel back on the air. We
(45:52):
want them to be organizing in their house of worship
and in their school and in whatever venues they actually have.
And in order to do that, we actually have to
have that local infrastructure, and we have to have people
plugged in. And so we really want to make sure
that when people and come out, we get them engaged
in a way that's ongoing.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
That's really important when people push back on Kimmel. It
was humongous, and it made me wonder if the numbers
are bigger than we think they are because of this
sort of siloed media infrastructure. You guys are interfacing with
these groups, and I mean, I know you don't have
a mechanism for sort of counting the numbers, but those
(46:31):
Kimmel numbers were big, and I just wonder what your
sort of sense is for this Saturday. And then I
know you shouldn't ask people to guess stuff like this
or predict the future, but I'm just curious.
Speaker 5 (46:44):
Look from our own perspective, we've been in this wave
moment that's less than ten months now. We still have
five to eight new indivisible groups wearing every single day Molly,
every single day. We've doubled the number of indivisible groups
this year, We've quadrupled our own membership. We keep it
on extras, specking it to die down, and it doesn't.
It just doesn't. More and more people are coming in organizing.
(47:06):
Shout out to Patsy in Hatboro, Pennsylvania, a town of
eight thousand that just formed Hatborough Indivisible. Welcome to the woman.
That's what it looks like. And so I think what
we saw with Kimmel was an incredible case study and
how this can actually push back against authoritarianism. And I
think the smart way this movement develops going forward. Diano
(47:28):
Kings is looking for those opportunities where the regime threatens
an institution. The institution buckles. Is very clear that they buckled.
There is a clear target who cares that the mass
movement of pro democracy. Folks around the country don't like that.
Those folks have an action item, they carry out that
action item, and then there's a response. I don't know
(47:50):
who the next Disney's going to be, but I can
tell you the way this regime is lasting out, there's
going to be another one. And the good thing about
Disney Kimmel's back on the air. But the better thing
about Disney is all these other media institution saw then said,
oh shit, I don't want that to happen to me.
You don't actually have to fight every single fight. You
do need to win some high profile ones like that,
and so we're looking out for the next opportunities. I
(48:12):
think that's where it's going to go. And I think
there is going to be another institution that finds itself
on the wrong side of this and quickly shifts over,
and that is just going to fuel the movement more
and more.
Speaker 1 (48:22):
So.
Speaker 5 (48:22):
What is this week and going to look like it's
going to be the biggest peaceful protestsman modern American answer?
Speaker 1 (48:28):
I guarantee you, Wow, that's very cool. Stay safe, stay peaceful.
What's the call to action?
Speaker 4 (48:36):
Go to no Kings dot org and find your local
event for this Saturday and show up. Bring your friends,
bring your family, bring your funny signs and your frog costumes.
We want it all.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
Thank you guys so much for joining, Thanks for having
us all.
Speaker 5 (48:50):
Great talking all.
Speaker 2 (48:56):
Jesse Canon Mai junk Fast. So one of the things
a lot of po don't realize is when you hear
about Trump in a third term and how stupid this is.
A lot of this is because one person talks about
it all day long. His name is Steve Bennon. He
went on the world's stupidest show, which is called Batya Wait.
Speaker 1 (49:14):
We need a minute here on Bodya because you know
who batya ish.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
I have followed Botia for longer than I would like.
Speaker 1 (49:20):
Unfortunately, Botia used to be a big lefty.
Speaker 2 (49:24):
And then she decided I will defend Trump no matter
what and make a fool of myself on cable television
because it's the brand. Baby.
Speaker 1 (49:31):
Let's hear it, Jesse. Cut to the video clues.
Speaker 7 (49:34):
So let me ask you about Trump twenty twenty eight.
We have a twenty second amendment which bar is anybody
from running for a third term. Do you think that
there's that's not a barrier for him? Or how do
you see that I.
Speaker 6 (49:48):
Think that there are many different alternatives that at the
appropriate time after the midterms in twenty six we will
roll out. But I think there are many different alternatives
to make sure that President Trump is on the ballot,
and if he's on the ballot, he'll win.
Speaker 1 (50:03):
So Batya, who I used to know is a liberal
before she decided nothing matters. Look, man, Donald Trump cannot
run again. He is lame duck. My man Steve Bannon
knows that, and he knows that that is a position
of weakness, and so he wants people to think that
Donald Trump can run again, but he cannot and he
will not. And the other thing is by then he'll
(50:25):
be eighty three. And there we go. You're welcome, Jesse kenn.
Speaker 2 (50:29):
God knows what he's mumbling about. Aside from not getting
into heaven by them eighty.
Speaker 1 (50:34):
Three, I'm sure he'll be just sharp as a tech
at eighty three.
Speaker 2 (50:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:38):
That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in
every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best
minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If
you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend
and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening,
Host
Molly Jong-Fast
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