November 8, 2025 • 49 mins
Think Like an Economist’s Justin Wolfers examines Trump’s economy and why it’s so weak that we aren’t getting any numbers.
Then former vice-presidential candidate Governor Tim Walz details how the government shutdown is affecting his constituents.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,
where we discussed the top political headlines with some of
today's best minds. And Donald Trump has now overseen over
a million corporate job losses, the worst since two thousand
and three. We have such a great show for you today.
(00:22):
The think like an economist Justin Wolfers joins us to
talk about Trump's economy and why it's so bad at
giving numbers. Then we'll talk to former vice presidential candidate
Governor Tim Walls about how the government shutdown is affecting
(00:43):
his citizens. But first the news.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Smy the Trump administration, they just love starving poor people.
You know, we all know the cruelty is the point.
We've gotten the memo. But my god, they're ordered to
pay snap payments. They could just say, all right, we
can see, will give the poor some things that they're
like now, got to make sure they suffer. Got to
make sure that there's as much harm inflicted on these
(01:07):
people as possible.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
So this is the first time ever that a government
has just decided not to pay snap benefits. The money
is there, like the Trump administration is is old hat
at like having money refusing to use it. It's not
their money. I mean, the thing I love about Donald
Trump is like he's like, you know, he's like the
rich dad being like, no, it's not for you, but
(01:30):
it's not yours, daddy. It's not your money, it's the
taxpayer's money. His administration is now fighting with the courts
about whether or not he has to pay SNAP benefit.
Forty percent of SNAP recipients are children, twenty percent are
the elderly, ten percent are disabled. They will go to
the grocery store and their Snap cards will have no
(01:52):
money on them. That is because of Donald J.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Trump.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
If you have a clearer explanation of how Donald Trump
is just fucking people overloved right by the way, Ice
still having their student loan debt paid, Okay, riddle me this,
like who is this for besides Elon Musk who will
soon be a trillionaire.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yeah, and let's remember all the air traffic controllers not
getting paid right now, all the congressional employees not getting
paid right now but still have to work.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
And members of Congress getting paid. Mike Johnson, my man,
he's making his full paycheck.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
My wife is out literally helping people in the streets
for free. That as mandated by her job, but not
getting a paycheck as we speak. Yes, So by I
don't normally recommend House Democrats imitating a guy who's on
videotape abusing his wife, who then became a meme because
(02:53):
he'd say change my mind and set college campuses where
a grown man would fight with college students. But I
have to say what Arizona repens Sorry did here by
trolling Mike Johnson and making it realize Mike Johnson's choosing
to keep the government shut down. I say more trolling
like this.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
So she's a member of Congress. She sat down in
front of Mike Johnson's office in a table with a
placard on the front that had written on it Mike
Johnson is starving families and gutting health care to cover
up the Epstein files. Change my mind. It's a sort
of a homage to evil Stephen Crowder, who used to
(03:32):
do that in college campuses. But the point of it
is that it actually really got people talking, and then
it got Mike Johnson playing c span in front of
his office as a way to try to dispel it,
which ended up having more people coming to talk to her,
which ended up creating more attention. And again, like you know,
we talk so much about like how politicians can break through,
(03:55):
how democrats can connect with voters, and like we see
lots of different ways that politicians can do it, even
like from Jared Moskowed's to Chris Murphy to Bernie Sanders,
Like this is another way in which like if you think,
if you're thinking in a creative way, then you can
actually connect. And there are a lot of members of
(04:18):
Congress and well, you know, Mike Johnson sent a lot
of people home. There are still some people that are there.
A lot of the Democrats are still there, and like
this was an effective way I think to break through.
So good for her.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Yeah. So another thing, you know, there's been a lot
of talk about socialist rule in this country and how
you know the socialists are getting in charge. And by
that I mean Donald Trump saying that he wants a
piece of neurodisc.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
So Donald Trump is amazing because whatever is happening in
his brain, he has no filter and he just says
whatever he thinks. So there was a pressor Donald Trump
and his administration got them to cut the cost of
these weight laws drugs, which is good. And then one
of the people on the wave loss drugs, passed out
and then RFK Junior ran out of the room. He
(05:08):
chap aquidict died out of there, slid But it's so good.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
It's a really good joke.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Damn yeah, we see saw someone those Kennedy's when there's
a medical emergency, those are not your people. And then
Donald Trump fell asleep at his desk. But between all
of those things, that was one of the great meetings.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Truly, many people are saying the greatest.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
One of the greatest. My favorite was when doctor Oz
was like, obesity can lead to dementia and pan to
Donald Trump.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Literally slumped down in his seat like me during history
class at eighth grade, just straight.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
There, very very tired. So anyway, he did make this
is he made a threat. One of his favorite. He's
very into socialism. He said to the CEO, maybe you
should give us a PE's of the company, like I've
been asking for, give the United States a nice big
chunk of the company. By the way, in case you're wondering,
(06:07):
he doesn't want it for the United States. He wants
it for Donnie and Eric Somali.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
We have two big, big Democratic congressional retirements in two
different ways. Nancy Pelosi.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Yeah, Nancy Pelosi will not seek re election to Congress
after forty years in Washington. She's eighty five. She'd stepped
down from leadership. She is now leaving the party. Probably
the most effective speaker of the House we've ever had.
Love her, hate her, feel very betrayed by her husband
(06:43):
stock Trading.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Can we pour one out for four h four Media's headlight,
one of the greatest headlines of all time, one of
the greatest Wall Street investors of all time, announces retirement.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
I mean, yes, that was bad, but she also did
some good stuff.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
I agree, I agree, but also we could laugh at that.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
We can like love our politicians and also know that
they are often less than perfect.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
So as well, though, somebody you love to bring up
on this podcast as a Congressman from main secred district,
which is an R plus four district. Representative Jared Golden
is retiring and many people are worried that this is
a seat that Dems cannot win without him.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Yeah, who knows he's retiring. I don't know how happy
he was. Ever, the times that I met him, he
seems super unhappy. There's a lot of blaming going on
of whether people pushed him to drop out or I
don't know.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Are you telling me people are unhappy being a congressperson.
That's such a great job.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Everybody wants it like such a good job. But we'll see.
I mean again, he's dropping out. That's too bad. There
is going to be an open govenmentorial. There's going to
be you know, there's a lot of stuff to run
for in Maine right now. Justin Wolfers is the host
to be Thinking Like an Economist podcast and a professor
(08:03):
at the University of Michigan. Welcome back to Fast Polity.
It's Justin Wlfer's So the great news for the Trump
administration is when the government is shut down, you don't
get the numbers right.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
Just like how we solved COVID so exactly numbers, no problems.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
But it was he had already before shutting down. In
Trump's defense, before shutting down the government, he had fired
the head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
He made his position on data very clear. He's against it.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
He also has very strong position on truth.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
That's right optional. He likes truthiness.
Speaker 4 (08:42):
Yep, in small doses and only occasionally yes.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
At this point, does the government give us public data.
Still not really or yes or talk us through it.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
It's a very sad day. So I'm going to make
this personal if I may. Molly is I've been a
nerd for a very long time. When I left college,
my first deviate job was at the Reserve Bank of Australia.
And when you have a like the FED, and when
you get a job as a baby economist, they give
you one tiny sliver of the economy to look after.
And my job was the job's report. And so even
as a little baby economist, I would wake up.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
In a text say country in a very.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
In a magnificent and beautiful country with a functional democracy
and a well functioning economy, you don't love it anymore,
which I have family and think about during an anna
able winter. The job was like it would be jobs Day,
and I would wake up excited for jobs Day, even
as a twenty two year old. And then I moved
to America and I did my PhD, and you know,
(09:37):
you forget about the real world for a little while.
And then my better half, Betsy Stevenson, became the chief
economist at the Department of Labor, and so it became
this thing Friday, The first Friday of every month was
Job's Day, and she had to get in early and
brief the labor secretary and talk to the media and
crunch the numbers for what was then the first a
Bama administration, and so jobs. There was such a big
(09:58):
day in our household. And then I was writing for
New York Times, and I used to write about the
jobs numbers, and it was all very exciting, and it stays.
It's just a regular part of our monthly life ever since,
to the point that I literally our nanny would walk
in and say, Oh, it's a job's day today, how
are you feeling about the economy? And today I woke
(10:20):
up and it's the first Friday of the month, and
there was an enormous void in my life, the sense
of checking in on the workers and seeing how they're doing,
of hoping that the economy is moving forward and producing
more for more of us, of wondering what's next, of
thinking about policies that could make a difference. I did
(10:43):
none of that. I sat in the dark room, staring
at the corner, rocking backward and forward, crying, just one
solitary tear down my cheek, talk us through this.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
We don't have the government data, but we do have
some private data. Does that fill the void or does not?
Speaker 4 (11:01):
It's sort of like, you know, when mum and dad
get divorced and then mum starts dating a new guy,
but she's not really sure that he's going to be
around for very long, and maybe they've been dating two
months and he takes you out to the zoo. That
is the ADP Job Report. The ADGP job report is
not something well loved, has no particular track record, is
(11:24):
not particularly reliable, and when you need it, you don't
know if it'll always be there for you.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
So no, we don't.
Speaker 4 (11:31):
There's going to be a lot of press attention around
the ADP Job Report, and it came in yesterday, it
was or the day before. It was not as bad
as the past few have been, but still the important
thing is not the comparison with are you as bad
as last month? But are you good or bad? It
was unequickly pointing to a weak economy, but I don't
(11:52):
want anyone to place much stock in it. It is
a very unreliable indicator. So the truth is we're all
alone in the dock right now. I hope this doesn't
sound like I'm talking about my childhood.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
So I want you to I need you to sort
of pull back from the job support into what you
think the economy. So we have a federal government that's
pretty hostile, that's a the longest shutdown ever, be pretty
hostile to facts, reason truth. So how do you figure
out where the economy is? Knowing those two sayings?
Speaker 4 (12:29):
Okay, so the good news, then the bad news. The
good news is the government data is not the only
data that we have. I did warn you a moment
ago that private sick the data about the state of
the labor market is not as good as government data,
and that's absolutely stunningly true. So we have lost some
very important things. There do exist many other data sets.
(12:52):
For instance, the Federal Reserve, which is not affected by
the shutdown, collects industrial production, and so we know how
much stuff is coming out of factories. We're not going
to be getting GDP data, but we are going to
continue to see surveys of companies telling us how they're doing.
We have all sorts of things about our daily lives
and measured in all sorts of ways. We know restaurant
reservations through open table, and we've got a lot of
(13:14):
practice of this during the pandemic, when a lot of
our normal ways of thinking about the economy were broken.
What are some creative ways. So the good news is
we're not purely in the dark. The bad news is
it's pretty damn foggy, which is it's going to be
very hard to have any great sense of what's going
on that really really matters right now. Why right now?
(13:36):
Because it's possible, but by no means certain that we're
at a turning point. It's possible that. Remember we've been
talking about tariffs for eight months, and I know I've
brought everyone on this, but actually Trump has only really
truly imposed them a couple of months ago, and so
if they're going to have an effect, it would be
any day now. We are seeing some hints that the
economy is slowed right off, not just because of tariff's
(13:58):
by the way, but also we've had a huge to
immigration and new people create new stuff, and so that's
something that's really going to be missing as well. Those
are two enormous shocks that are hitting the economy right now.
And we do know enough to know that the economy
was slowing, and the question is are we slowing into
comfortable or are we slowing into a recession and we
(14:18):
actually have no way of knowing that right now, which
is a very very uncomfortable place to be in.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yeah, that does not sound good. And then the other question,
which you know, people will be listening to this podcast
on Saturday morning and we will be in the middle
of what Sean Duffy lovingly refers to as airplane armageddon,
where they basically just slow down air traffic because vibes.
(14:45):
So that seems like it could have larger consequences to
the economy.
Speaker 4 (14:50):
Well, you usually bring me in for the stuff that
you feel less confident on, and that's usually macroeconomics. You
feel terrific on finance, and when it comes to fashion, wow,
and politics for sure, and peace on gender. I thought
the other in the New York Times. I love that
l Thank you. So you want to talk about macroeconomics.
And the truth is that the government shutdown is going
to be a small impact in terms of its overall
(15:12):
macro stuff, right, So the headlines aren't going to change
a lot. That's position one. Position two that's also true
is every single holiday that's destroyed, every snap beneficiary who
went to bed, hungry and fearful last night.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Right, and that's started now. SNAP. The Trump administration is
not funding SNAP, even though federal judges have told them
they have to.
Speaker 4 (15:35):
So then they should be. And I don't you know,
none of us will believe it until the money's on
the card, which means the most vulnerable people in our
society who have no stockpile of cash, no.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Waves, forty percent of which are children, elderly, and ten
percent are disabled.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Let's just pause on that for a moment.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Mine, yeah, and FYI are white like even.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
That, we know that is and should be irrelevant. Let's
pull on the very human thing you said. It's profoundly important.
Many of our listeners, just like you and I Moly,
are fortunate enough. We're doing okay economically, and so we
don't think about how will I go to the grocery
store next week? What can I afford to buy?
Speaker 3 (16:16):
What is in the covert?
Speaker 1 (16:17):
But we do notice, I mean, I certainly noticed that
my grocery bells are humongous, like crazy high compared to
what I mean, there are much more, and if we're
noticing it, it means it's real. Everywhere.
Speaker 4 (16:32):
Food prices are up about three percent over the past year.
I am profoundly disgusted by anyone who can take the
most vulnerable and make them pawns in the political game.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
Why don't we just have a.
Speaker 4 (16:44):
Different kind of shutdown where tax cuts for millionaires get
put off for a few weeks. I mean, it's only
a weird accident, and well it's not even a weed accident.
It's also the illegality and then the approach to the administration.
But it's one of the most awful things I've seen
the American government do to its own people. And it
doesn't need to do it. There's money there, we know
how to spend it. I also want to pan back
(17:05):
because Molly, you're also you know, you're like, oh, what's
the fifth of the chapter, and you think about next
quarter's GDP When we go back to the things that
you were talking about, things like we no longer have
statistical agencies that are being told it's important to tell
the truth. Now so far they are telling the truth,
and they want to remind our listeners of that. But
when you fire the head of the BLS for no reason,
(17:26):
you're sending them a message. You can stop with that
truth stuff. When you have CEOs of major corporations walk
into the White House and walk out ten minutes later
with ten percent less of their company. When you have
the present.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Telling them that it's called socialism.
Speaker 4 (17:43):
It's called something asm and you have the administration ignoring
the courts when you have real questions, when you have
ice on the streets. All of this stuff. None of
it shows up in this quarter's GDP. But it's more
important than anything that shows up in next quarter's GDP.
(18:04):
That is not a political statement. That is an economic statement.
That is a statement that, on average, the average populist
leader over the last hundred years, when you elect them
a decade later, has led GDP to be about fifteen
percent lower. Let me say that more human terms. GDP's
a fancy word for you elect Trump like characters, and
(18:26):
history shows that a decade later, average income is fifteen
percent lower, and he could be worse. When you look
at these big questions, what makes the United States rich
and the country of my birth, which was Papulnian Guinea poor,
It's really about state capacity. It's about how we run
our economy. It's our political and economic institutions, and they're
(18:47):
all being burned down right now. None of that is
going to be next quarter's GDP. But everything we know
about how economies work tell us this is overwhelmingly the
most important thing going on. You can't see it, but
what we will know is that our kids are going
to wake up in ten or twenty years time and
the opportunities in front of them are going to simply
(19:09):
not be there. And it's these unborn opportunities. It's the
new ideas, the new industries that just simply never happened,
and that's the real cost and.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
The problems in China.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
I am trying to figure out how you tell this story,
so I need your help because it's not a story.
It's economic research. This is findings from serious people studying
hundreds of years of economic history among every country around
the world. And it's not so obvious, but this is
Folks like Emily do a great job telling it as
a political story, but this is an economic story as well.
(19:42):
And the American poor will be poorer as a result
of our pie being smaller as a result of everything
that's going on.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Yeah, thank you, Elon mush. So let's talk about where
we are right now. When it comes to we don't
have the data, we have have these tariffs. We have
the Supreme Court fight, this insane Supreme Court fight whether
Donald Trump has the power to do everything he's ever
wanted to do period paragraph. The questions with the Supreme Court,
(20:12):
this case, this tariff case, are so big because the
courts could side that Trump doesn't have the economic power
to do these things and it could not necessarily matter,
right Like they could say he has time to pay back,
or he has this, or is that. So I would
love it if you could explain to us, don't predict
the future, but just lay out what the possible lanes are.
Speaker 4 (20:35):
I think what you just says. Can you be an
economics professor for about five.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Minutes, but I'm the Supreme Court case.
Speaker 4 (20:42):
Yeah, okay. So here's the critical things for people to understand.
The Constitution. So the Constitution gives the power to tax
to Congress. Congress has delegated some of those authorities to
the White House because Congress understands that Congress is not
very nimble, and so for things like national security and
so on, you can live in new tariffs through the
White House without Congress.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
There's a process. But that's it.
Speaker 4 (21:04):
Trump decided he granted himself a new set of powers
that had never been used before. All of the tariffs
that are on individual countries, on China, on Canada, and
actually on every country around the world. Eighty percent of
what he's done has been country by country tariffs. There's
no legal authority for that. Trump claims he gets one
through what's called the Emergency Powers Act. The Emergency Powers
(21:27):
Act is two things are really important about it. One,
no where does it mention the word tariff or tax.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
You're suit a stickler for these words. And wait.
Speaker 4 (21:36):
Second, well, good that you're thinking about that, because the
second thing is stickler for words. It's called the Emergency
Powers Act. Yeah, so I know he wants the powers.
I think that means you got to have the emergency.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
As just as Amy brought up, what is the national
security reason for now? You could say Tokyo, you know,
you could say Japan, but then you can't also.
Speaker 4 (21:57):
Say tariff's'm bananas, right, you know?
Speaker 1 (22:01):
And me and Italy like it has it out?
Speaker 4 (22:06):
What about the aggression coming from north of the border
as Canadians far out won the World lost the World
Series even thank you, Yes, that's good. So those are
the central issues I listened to the Supreme Court argument.
They actually focused almost exclusively on the first days, which
was does the Emergency Powers Act give the President the
(22:27):
right over tariffs. The government's view was, Oh, if tariffs
work properly, no one will ever buy anything from abroad,
which means we'll collect no revenue. So therefore the revenue
is merely incidental. This is about regulating other countries. The
justices fought back and they said, if you want people
to not buy from other countries, here's a simple thing,
have an embargo. So it was the Boston tea Party,
(22:49):
not the Boston embargo Party, was sort of the claim. So,
in fact, the government made up a new word. It
took me a long time to realize they made up
a new word. They talked about revenue tariffs versus regulatory tariffs.
One of these there's actually only tariffs a book behind me.
On the bookshelf I might have written. It defines a
tariff as attacks on imports. It is a tax. So
(23:09):
the government wants to claim there's something called a regulation tariff.
It's literally a word. They just invent it. Yeah, doesn't exist.
So that's where most of the argument was. The justices
were pretty hostile because when Congress wants to get rid
of its taxing powers. It tends to be very very
very clear, and it didn't even use the word here.
But then you still get to the second problem, which is,
even if it had the power, does Trump have a
(23:31):
national emergency? This is where as an economist, the administration says,
we have a national emergency because we have a trade
unbalanced trade with specific countries. That's what it's called a
bilateral trade deficit. No economist alive thinks they matter. Not
even do we not think they're an emergency. We don't
even think they're interesting.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
So even like a Kevin Hasset.
Speaker 4 (23:54):
Even Kevin Hasset, if you tied him down and injected
him with honesty juice, yeah, Asset, it would take a
lot of honesty Jews.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
What about Stephen Moore?
Speaker 4 (24:06):
So stupid that it hurts?
Speaker 1 (24:07):
I mean, I just want to know who is the
dumbest MAGA economist.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
I am going to be really nice.
Speaker 4 (24:13):
I'm just gonna say I'm glad that there are people
now I can't even say nice things. I'm just going
to stay out of that. But like serious point for
the audience, what happens when a new administration comes to
town is usually they recruit the best and the brightest
every administration, not only in my lifetime, in the previous
fifty years. You can look at who was the chair
of the Council of Economic Advisors, Who were the nerds
and the wonks around the president, and they were the
(24:35):
best and brightest of their generation. Many a former Nobel
Prize winners, for ins a Nobel Prize winners, for instance.
What we have in the current White House is you
can take any ranking of the horsepower of economists, and
many exist. By the way, there is no one in
the White House who is in America's ten thousand best economists.
That's not a hint of exactly, that's a quantitative statement.
(24:56):
They've gone dragging through the gutter. Stupid is jupid does?
I don't want to be that guy. I hate being
that guy. But it's not a well advised White House.
Maybe in competence is part of the strategy.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
We're at a time. What are you going to watch
for over the next couple of weeks, economic indicators, what's
coming down the pike.
Speaker 4 (25:17):
I think the most interesting thing is going to be
the Supreme Court tariff case. It's probably going to happen quickly,
according to the legal nerds I talked to, not tomorrow quickly,
but maybe you know even before Thanksgiving. That'd be amazing,
wouldn't it. Have you Thanksgiving talk about tariffs around the Turkey. If,
as I expect, the Trump tarift's areroyalt illegal, we're going
to move from eight months of unconstitutional, illegal tariff turmoil
(25:40):
that have created all sorts of headaches to a whole
new set of tariff turmoil, some of which in the
future may even be constitutional. But it'll be this crazy,
crazy soap opera in which the president tries to run
an economy by pretending he and he alone can move
the pieces around the global economy chessboard. So if you
(26:02):
think you've seen myhem strapping this plenty more ahead.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
I was told trade wars are good and easy to win.
Thank you, justin.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
Thank you, Molly.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Governor Tim Walls is a former vice presidential candidate and
the governor of the great state of Minnesota. Welcome back
too fast Politics, Governor Walls.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
It's good to be with you, Molly. It's been too long,
but you had a whole row of great guests you've
had on so glad to be back.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
I just wanted to talk to you. I just felt
like we needed to catch up about how and there's
something about this particular moment in American life after this,
you know, we're talking in the week of the twenty
twenty five cycle, which was a tiny, tiny cycle, but
a huge repudiation of trump Ism.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Absolutely, And look it helps me process too, because I
keep thinking, you know, year ago, we needed to see
these numbers, but these candidates and the American people showed
up in huge numbers. We were just talking. You know,
we now have the most female governors we've ever had
in American history, with Governor Alex Banberger and Cheryl and
then of course, you know winning in New York City
(27:18):
governor's race. The party is broad and we're proud of that.
But I just think for me, it was just good
to see what we all knew, that the American people
at heart are kinder people, They care more, that this
cruelty and this stuff isn't what they're looking for. So
I agree this is it was therapeutic. We know that
it was one moment in time, but it's encouraging and
(27:42):
I'm just grateful to the folks that went out and
voted and some of the massive swings we saw of
young people coming back and Hispanic voters, and so good
to be with you at this point.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
It's interesting because it's like, you know, the twenty twenty
four cycle for me, and I know for you too,
was just there was something about it that was just
devastating that I felt that, you know, it was in
all different ways, you know, a referendum on sort of
(28:13):
goodness and sandy and the American people said yet again
for the second time, and so I just would love
you know, we haven't talked since that election. You want
to talk about like what it was like for you,
because I know what it was like for me, and
it wasn't my name on that ticket.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Well, first of all, you know, and I think Vice
President Harris articulated so well that night when we found
out we weren't going to win, my first thought went
to what we knew would happened the most vulnerable. And
here we sat with Donald Trump building a ballroom and
going to court to deny food to children, not just
trying to do it. He did it, tried it, lost court.
(28:52):
Did you know, provide the food and that's not good enough.
So my thought, you know, the sense of ownership I had,
and that I knew there was going to be the
most vulnerable We're going to feel this.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
This is the first shutdown ever, the longest shutdown ever,
and the first one where the government has decided the
Trump administration has decided not to fund snap.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
Yeah, it's it's beyond the payout.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
It is.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
It is a cruelty. But look if at this point
in time, we don't understand that cruelty is not a bug,
it's a feature revenge and pettiness. If if selfishness is it.
It's all grounded in that. And and look, I Molly,
you talked about this. I don't think this surprises you.
It doesn't. It doesn't surprise me. But as a teacher
(29:33):
and as an elected official, I you know, I needed
to articulate that stronger. I think about that election and
elections are always about change. And you know, and I
think we got we were seen as status quo. I
would I would say what you said, Molly, is I
think we were status quo of decency and goodness and
order and not chaos. But the public wanted to see
(29:53):
something else. And you know, Trump promised these farmers they
were going to be rich. Well, now they're going bankrupt,
he crisis were going to come down. He didn't. So
I think what happened is the American people And look,
I think we saw what seven percent of Trump voters
in some of these states switched back. He lied to them,
and they're tired of it. And now we have an opportunity,
(30:14):
which I think our candidates did tell them what we
stand for. Yeah, you can scream all you want of
them trying to make you know, Mayor elect Mondania face
of the Democratic Party. He's talking about bringing housing costs deck,
he's talking about making a city more liveable, if at
all possible, you know, I think. And then you see
that in Virginia, you see it in uh, you know,
(30:37):
state house races across the country. So I think the
Democrats now have a chance to say, look, you obviously
are sick of Trump. Here's what we can offer you.
And that's what.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Yeah, but what was it? I just am curious, like
for my own just because we're friends, Like, what was it? Like,
I mean, I just basically wrote, you know, I wrote
a bunch of pieces about the stuff I got wrong.
I tried to sort of take stock I think of
you as I don't know I feel like you you
are sturdy midwestern governor who really did show the country
(31:10):
that you're that you had a real national profile. You
got a lot of the kind of criticism that you
get when you have a national profile. But was it
I mean, first of all, what was it like to
go from sturdy midwestern governor to like, you know, to
everyone's did he you know, was was he the right pick?
(31:31):
And then also just like was it like I mean,
and has it changed you?
Speaker 3 (31:36):
Yeah? Well, first of all was an honor and it
was And I view all these jobs just like I
viewed my teaching job, and you know, in Congress and
thing it was public service. And I got asked by
the Vice President of the United States to try and
help her win. That was my job. I did it
to the best of my ability. Certainly not flawless. We
all have, you know, our things we can do better at.
(31:57):
But I was very proud that we were articulating at decency.
We are articulating a vision around whether it was healthcare, expansion,
home ownership, we were going to tackle problems like climate change.
So I was really proud. It was very short the
times that we were there. Again, I think back and
I think you have to do this reassessed. Could I
have been more you know, effective doing this? And I
(32:19):
don't think it's necessarily you know, rehashing something. But I
think we as ingercress have to learn why didn't we win?
Why did we win? What could we do better? Now?
Obviously I said, it's really frustrating to me. Is we
not only did we not win, we lost to that guy? Yeah,
and the it is the worst part. And I feel,
you know, personally, but like people said, you know, are
(32:40):
you doing okay? Are you going to be okay? Look,
older white guys who are governors, they tend to land
pretty song you're okay. But I said where I wasn't
okay was is knowing what I needed to do so
for me. And this is where I think, you know,
I've talked some but I haven't talked in depth of
Vice President Harris. I think it was very both therapeutic
(33:01):
and good. I just came right back home and got
to work. And we had a horrific summer. My best
friend was murdered, we had children shot in a church,
you know, so it was a horrific summer. But I was.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
Talking about this the minute speaker Melissa Wortman murdered, political
murder in her bed with her dog and her husband
by a conservative right.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
And a president who used that as an opportunity to
and senators from Utah to slander Minnesota.
Speaker 4 (33:33):
Me.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
So, look, I had something to do, and.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Your name was on that list too.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
Yeah, well yeah, all of us, all the Democrats were,
you know. And then he would have killed more people
had he and he had the chance. So all that's
going on. Then we have children murdered on the first
day of school. I'm trying to fight for gun violence.
I'm trying to get rid of assault weapons and high
capacity magazines. So I had a place to go back
to and to do the work. And I think for me,
what was so encouraging about this is is that, look,
(34:00):
this was a catastrophic loss last fall, catastrophic for the country,
catastrophic for democracy. We have innocent people being swept up
off the streets. We have moms being yanked out of
their car and their babies driven away, you know, and things.
I mean, this is so horrific. But I have the
capacity to do something about it, at least in Minnesota,
so I'm back at it. I do think there were
(34:21):
lessons learned the affordability piece on this.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
Can I just ask one question? This is like a
hobby horse of mine, as someone who's written so much
about that CSYCHO, I felt that the consultant class would
constantly get in there and be like, you know, like
I think of you as a politician with very good instincts,
and that every time something would take off, the consultant
class would go in there and like smush it is
that just my own fantasy? Did you see that happening?
(34:48):
I mean, there was so much. There was such a
group of very no i know, making a ton of
you know, just you know.
Speaker 3 (34:57):
Yeah, well, look, first, it is so big. You know,
I've run statewide campaigns, but they pale in comparison. It
was so big. There's so many moving pieces in plans
that have to go. And look, I signed on very clearly.
My job was to get Kamala Harris elected president and
then to serve her in the role of her vice
president whatever she needed, whatever that looked like. So I'm
(35:18):
a team player, I have agency. You know. There were
things like I can speak up and there were things
that I did. But when I signed up and said
I'm on board, I said I'll follow the plan, and
I think retrospectively, you know, I've said this not critique.
I think it's just reality. I think we were too
cautious and played to not lose, play to win.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
That is the consultant class that did.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
That's their job. That's their job, and I have to
trust them. So I mean, in retrospect on everything, you
go back and say, maybe we should have done this differently.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
But certainly do you wish she hadn't trusted them a
little bit? Though, Like because I see.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
So many I don't know if it's an option though.
You know, when in this year on the ticket, my
job was to not cause any grief. And you know
I could give my put in and that there's great
folks in there and lots of thousands of people working.
They would take a look. I'll just give you one example.
I had a few minutes one afternoon I know, some
hotel somewhere and it's when I'm watching a football game
(36:12):
on a Sunday afternoon before we get ready to go again,
and the transgender at popped up. I very you know,
instinctively felt this. I said, this ad is dangerous. It's
dangerous if we don't respond because I think we have
to to defend people who shouldn't be you know where
my position is on transgender Yes, I'm only.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
There's no reason to throw the throw one under the
bus in anyone, but there's no reason to respond.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
Yeah, and there's no reason after Tuesday to change that either,
because we can do two things at once. Make affordability
a prisent but support human rights. That's one where I
think you get kind of paralyzed and decided that that
one would just slide by. And it wasn't the old
because it was a double killer because to not respond
to it, I felt like allies felt like they being
(37:00):
a band and that wasn't the case. Kamala Harris has
stood with them. You always would. So you've got smart
people making decisions and looking at polling and all that.
And I think my biggest thing is is that I
would loyal and I'm loyaled and will continue till the
day I died to Kamala Harris and the team made decisions.
Did we get them all right? Well, if we had,
we probably would have won.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
And so I mean, I just I just think about
it so much because I think about like the sort
of successful Democrats who break through, right, the kind of
Chris Murphy's yes, or the Bernie Sanders, so it's not ideological,
or the even the governor Pritzker's right, the people. Pritzker
obviously it's a little bit different because he's got ice
(37:40):
attacking his city twenty seven. But like Tho, you know,
those three they're not ideological, but they all have managed
to sort of permeate the news bubble.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
Where they're authentic. They're authentic, and they're in the moment.
You can feel them in the moment.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Whereas you have, like democratic leadership, it's hard to think
of a moment that Chuck Schumer has really nailed or
Hakeem And so that's my question.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
The job is hard. No, you're right, and look, I
think it's a healthy exercise to talk about it. But
I also think we have seen this, that authenticity. You've
got to be disciplined enough. You talked about this, Molly,
and I told the Vice president this. I said, Look,
I think, you know, I think you'll get good stuff
out of me most of the time, and about ten
(38:24):
percent of the time I think it'll be really good.
And then there's going to be about ten percent that'll
be problematic. I think, you know, you talk, and I
think it's about managing risk. And I think there's a
risk averseness in these campaigns that I don't even say
that as a pejorative, but the route to take less risky,
and I think in an extrasential race like we saw
(38:45):
because I was convinced, I keep telling this story, Molly.
I didn't know this, but we did an off the
record stop in southern Georgia and I was on the
bus with the Vice President. We're driving down small rural
roads and there's little girls, little black girls out there
with signs, unpaigned signs that said Kamala and it you know,
I'm like, oh. And we stopped at a school. We're
in a band room and it's a Friday afternoon in
(39:08):
the fall. The band is playing the fight song, the
cheerleaders are in there, the football team is in there.
We're going to go in there and do a little
off the record for the cameras type of thing whenever.
And we walk in there and the first thing Kamala
Harris says is, oh, I love this room. I was
a band kid, and I'm like, you were a band kid.
American needs to know you're a band. You know what
I'm saying. There's something quintessentially about being in band in
(39:32):
a school, just like there is about being a football coach,
a science teacher, whatever it might be. It was such
a humanizing moment, It was so good, and I just thought, Man,
we should run with this stuff. We should do more
of this. I don't think America knew that, because you know,
that's their goal, to make us unlikable. We can't possible
this guy can't possibly be a football coach and a
(39:53):
soldier who grew up on a farm and knows about
agg economy. So we got to do whatever we can
to make him just so alien to us. And I
don't think the consultant class responds to that.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
I didn't know that, and I covered the campaign and
interviewed her a bunch. I think that kind of carefulness
is sort of is ultimately the undoing of some of
these of some of some democratic politicians.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
No, I think you're right, and I look, say what
you will, and my wife Gwyn gets this ride or whatever,
the horrificness of the character of Donald Trump, But that
whole thing of there's something in that when people say
I know it drives us all nuts if you're progressive, well,
at least Donald Trump, you know, speaks how he's feeling
or whatever. There is some truth in that he doesn't
get penalized for the horrific things he says, like you know,
(40:41):
you name it. There's countless ones that's viewed more as well.
At least he's authentic, and I don't feel like I'm
being sold to Bill of goods. You know. It's not
an excuse to be sloppy, but it should be an
excuse to if you get asked a question, try your
best to answer it. Yeah, your best to answer it.
Try and be there, you know. And I think we
watched this and the Republicans obviously trying to make Mayor
(41:02):
Elec Mandani the face of the party. But if you're
a Democrat, why are you running from other Democrats? You know,
you can disagree and say, look, I don't agree with
all of his policies, this is not something I would do,
but the people of New York should be able to vote.
And look, if you're living in Albuquerque, New Mexico, I
don't think you should be probably overly concerned who the
mayor of New York City is. And I think there's
(41:23):
a cautiousness. You see people like go out of their
way to like deny that these things happen.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
My favorite things that you did in the campaign were
the stuff about fixing your car like this sort of no,
but seriously, like the car talk. I don't know, did
you ever listen to car talk?
Speaker 3 (41:42):
What did click and clack? Yeah? Yeah, I loved it.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
When I was a kid, my dad would drive me
to stuff and we listened to car talk and it
was like, you know, it was just an American thing.
And that kind of stuff I felt like was some
of the stuff and I don't, you know, I barely drive,
but the kind of stuff that I felt was very
relatable and just who you are.
Speaker 3 (42:06):
Yeah. And I think the same thing would be true
of Kamala when she talked about like cooking and things.
And I think there's lessons in this, and we saw
it with these candidates. You know, to be real who
you are, don't try and be something you're not, and
then proudly stand on the things that we believe in
and and then do it for people.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
And also more I mean like Donald Trump, you know
he did fall asleep at his desk yesterday or the
day before, or maybe both, but he did do like
he does do five pool sprays. He he does do
a ton of.
Speaker 3 (42:36):
I couldn't agree more. No, I couldn't agree more. And
that's a lesson we learned. And I think, you know,
not seeing podcasters and you know, and influencers or wherever
you're gonna go with it, not seeing them as like
you know, this novelty thing on the side, but seeing
part of your bigger plan. And you do this and
then understand the simplicity of I gotta tell you, Molly again.
(42:57):
I think it was either North care Liner Georgia. Final
weeks of the campaign, I started seeing these little signs
all over the place pop up Trump good, Kamala bad,
Trump saved, Kamala crime, and it was They're good and
they were just random that had been printed and they
were all over and my first instinct would be, and
this is where you can get kind of trapped in.
(43:18):
This is like, h it's ridiculous. And then I started
to realize, holy crap, those things are super effective. They
are super one small piece. I don't know how much
money they spent on them, combination of things and was
there enough of us? And then you know, in no
disrespect to the large legacy media, but preparing and prepping
for an interview on CNN that probably had less viewers
(43:40):
than I would get on this podcast. Yeah, no, for
sure true and.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
So yeah no, I mean and also like I do
think there should be more of like, especially people like you,
going on stuff like Rogan, because Joe Rogan did not
leave the Democratic Party, right, it's just that Donald Trump
made his bat you know, try desperately to get on.
I mean, it's going on there. I mean they you know.
Speaker 3 (44:06):
I agree, And look, it's not about being arrogant. I mean,
it's just know this stuff whatever I find this happened
time and time again. When you're in a position like
this and when you can't meet everybody, they will caricature.
They make a caricature. Of course, their go to is
if we're in the military, they swift boat us. It
doesn't matter if it's true or not. They have this
pattern and it sinks in enough to erode faith. And
what I said is I feel very confident in this.
(44:27):
If people like Rogan and other people, if I meet
them and sit down and talk to them, I guarantee
you they leave saying well, I didn't expect that. Yeah,
we expect that because they've been fed a line that's
not true. Michaels is in public service and servant leadership
is to find solutions going forward. And I have worked
with Republicans and right now I know that there's some
Democrats that, oh, that guy's willing to compromise. You know,
(44:51):
I'm not with him. That's our problem inside our party.
We'll figure that. But the vast majority of Americans just
want effectiveness. And I think if you don't go on
those shows, you don't show them, it's easy to demonize you.
I watched, just not that long ago, Joe Rogan going
off on an AI video of me. It's some guy
wearing a you know, f Donald Trump shirt dancing down
(45:11):
an escalator.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
Right, it's not true.
Speaker 3 (45:13):
Why the hell would I ever do anything like that,
And it's pretty out of character.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
You're running for reelection, I am. This will be your
third term.
Speaker 3 (45:22):
Yes, tell me, well, I think the moment is it again.
I don't think that I'm the only one. I don't
can do this. I don't think that you have a
lock on these These are not your jobs. I think
here in Minnesota we're a truly purple state that I
think people don't recognize. Of all the swing states, thank goodness,
Minnesota we won, and you know that was my job
(45:42):
to help win the other ones. But I think right
now we've moved Minnesota in a progressive way where we're
consistently seeing now we ranked near the top of whether
it's raising a child, starting a business. We're going to
start and have the most aggressive paid family medical leave
kicks in on the first. We are protecting reproductive rights,
We're protecting our transgender children, we are innovating around healthcare,
and lots of things are in absolute opposition to Trump.
(46:06):
And right now, every single day, I spend my time
thinking about how we can improve the lives of Minnesota
and fighting a rearguard action about the nonsense that Trump
is bringing. And I think I have twelve years of
congressional experience, eight years as governor. I've been through everything
from the pandemic to George Floyd to seeing the national stage.
I think I'm best prepared and probably better qualified than
(46:27):
anybody who's ever run for governor. And I think I
can provide a bit of that firewall. But I don't
take it for granted. The people of Minnesota will speak.
I feel like right now I'm working harder than on
any campaign I've ever worked, and I feel like last
fall showed me this. If a Republican wins in Minnesota,
we will get rid of reproductive rights and we are
the beacon for the Midwest Usin Illinois, we will turn
(46:50):
our backs on climate change, we will demonize the most
vulnerable amongst US, and we will weaken what is America's
most progressive taxation system. And so I really feel like
protecting those things we did that I'm best positioned to
do that. We've got an open Senate seat here, and
I think you know how these things work in a
state the size of Minnesota, having an open Senate and
an open governor massively expensive.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
Yes, thank you, Governor Wall.
Speaker 3 (47:14):
We'll get back again. You're the best.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
You're the best. Thank you, Thank you, No no moment second.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
Jesse Cannon, my Trumpism often has talked about us saying
the quiet part out loud constantly. Steve Betta just going
for new heights, like, you know, like the guy's not
in the best shape, but he's jumping Olympic levels high
of telling on themselves.
Speaker 1 (47:40):
Yeah, you know, so when I saw this video. It
was like, you know how it is now You're like,
this is probably AI and then you're like, oh, no, no,
it's not. This is a quote. I tell you right
as God as my witness. If we lose the midterms
and we lose twenty twenty, some in this room are
(48:02):
going to prison, Bannon told the crowd at the awards
event hosted by the Conservative Partnership Academy. I think he
then added, didn't he add I am two or no?
I guess he didn't.
Speaker 2 (48:16):
I think that that was implied by some in this
room because if we remember, he did the build the
wall thing, and he narrowly.
Speaker 1 (48:22):
Evaded he went to prison.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
He did go to prison. Actually that was for the
contempt around the other thing as well. You know, there's
still hell to pay with many of his deeds.
Speaker 1 (48:32):
Yes, no question.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
You know, for people like you and me, this is
a real get out the vote operation. Bring Ben into jail.
Speaker 1 (48:39):
Yeah, correct, that is true. It is a get out
of the vote. I also think, like the fact that
they're saying this now shows there's just a lot of anxiety.
I think they're going to do a lot of crazy
stuff to try and make it hard for people to vote.
I think that seems like it's clearly on the horizon,
so certainly worrying, certainly something to keep watching out for,
(49:02):
and certainly the Steve Bannon we know, delivering the hits
as only he can.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
Oh, when you talk that many hours on air all day,
you're gonna say some real dumb things.
Speaker 1 (49:14):
Thad for yourself. That's it for this episode of Fast Politics.
Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear
the best minds and politics make sense of all this chaos.
If you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a
(49:35):
friend and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.
Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,
where we discussed the top political headlines with some of
today's best minds. And Donald Trump has now overseen over
a million corporate job losses, the worst since two thousand
and three. We have such a great show for you today.
(00:22):
The think like an economist Justin Wolfers joins us to
talk about Trump's economy and why it's so bad at
giving numbers. Then we'll talk to former vice presidential candidate
Governor Tim Walls about how the government shutdown is affecting
(00:43):
his citizens. But first the news.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Smy the Trump administration, they just love starving poor people.
You know, we all know the cruelty is the point.
We've gotten the memo. But my god, they're ordered to
pay snap payments. They could just say, all right, we
can see, will give the poor some things that they're
like now, got to make sure they suffer. Got to
make sure that there's as much harm inflicted on these
(01:07):
people as possible.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
So this is the first time ever that a government
has just decided not to pay snap benefits. The money
is there, like the Trump administration is is old hat
at like having money refusing to use it. It's not
their money. I mean, the thing I love about Donald
Trump is like he's like, you know, he's like the
rich dad being like, no, it's not for you, but
(01:30):
it's not yours, daddy. It's not your money, it's the
taxpayer's money. His administration is now fighting with the courts
about whether or not he has to pay SNAP benefit.
Forty percent of SNAP recipients are children, twenty percent are
the elderly, ten percent are disabled. They will go to
the grocery store and their Snap cards will have no
(01:52):
money on them. That is because of Donald J.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Trump.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
If you have a clearer explanation of how Donald Trump
is just fucking people overloved right by the way, Ice
still having their student loan debt paid, Okay, riddle me this,
like who is this for besides Elon Musk who will
soon be a trillionaire.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yeah, and let's remember all the air traffic controllers not
getting paid right now, all the congressional employees not getting
paid right now but still have to work.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
And members of Congress getting paid. Mike Johnson, my man,
he's making his full paycheck.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
My wife is out literally helping people in the streets
for free. That as mandated by her job, but not
getting a paycheck as we speak. Yes, So by I
don't normally recommend House Democrats imitating a guy who's on
videotape abusing his wife, who then became a meme because
(02:53):
he'd say change my mind and set college campuses where
a grown man would fight with college students. But I
have to say what Arizona repens Sorry did here by
trolling Mike Johnson and making it realize Mike Johnson's choosing
to keep the government shut down. I say more trolling
like this.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
So she's a member of Congress. She sat down in
front of Mike Johnson's office in a table with a
placard on the front that had written on it Mike
Johnson is starving families and gutting health care to cover
up the Epstein files. Change my mind. It's a sort
of a homage to evil Stephen Crowder, who used to
(03:32):
do that in college campuses. But the point of it
is that it actually really got people talking, and then
it got Mike Johnson playing c span in front of
his office as a way to try to dispel it,
which ended up having more people coming to talk to her,
which ended up creating more attention. And again, like you know,
we talk so much about like how politicians can break through,
(03:55):
how democrats can connect with voters, and like we see
lots of different ways that politicians can do it, even
like from Jared Moskowed's to Chris Murphy to Bernie Sanders,
Like this is another way in which like if you think,
if you're thinking in a creative way, then you can
actually connect. And there are a lot of members of
(04:18):
Congress and well, you know, Mike Johnson sent a lot
of people home. There are still some people that are there.
A lot of the Democrats are still there, and like
this was an effective way I think to break through.
So good for her.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Yeah. So another thing, you know, there's been a lot
of talk about socialist rule in this country and how
you know the socialists are getting in charge. And by
that I mean Donald Trump saying that he wants a
piece of neurodisc.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
So Donald Trump is amazing because whatever is happening in
his brain, he has no filter and he just says
whatever he thinks. So there was a pressor Donald Trump
and his administration got them to cut the cost of
these weight laws drugs, which is good. And then one
of the people on the wave loss drugs, passed out
and then RFK Junior ran out of the room. He
(05:08):
chap aquidict died out of there, slid But it's so good.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
It's a really good joke.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Damn yeah, we see saw someone those Kennedy's when there's
a medical emergency, those are not your people. And then
Donald Trump fell asleep at his desk. But between all
of those things, that was one of the great meetings.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Truly, many people are saying the greatest.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
One of the greatest. My favorite was when doctor Oz
was like, obesity can lead to dementia and pan to
Donald Trump.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Literally slumped down in his seat like me during history
class at eighth grade, just straight.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
There, very very tired. So anyway, he did make this
is he made a threat. One of his favorite. He's
very into socialism. He said to the CEO, maybe you
should give us a PE's of the company, like I've
been asking for, give the United States a nice big
chunk of the company. By the way, in case you're wondering,
(06:07):
he doesn't want it for the United States. He wants
it for Donnie and Eric Somali.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
We have two big, big Democratic congressional retirements in two
different ways. Nancy Pelosi.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Yeah, Nancy Pelosi will not seek re election to Congress
after forty years in Washington. She's eighty five. She'd stepped
down from leadership. She is now leaving the party. Probably
the most effective speaker of the House we've ever had.
Love her, hate her, feel very betrayed by her husband
(06:43):
stock Trading.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Can we pour one out for four h four Media's headlight,
one of the greatest headlines of all time, one of
the greatest Wall Street investors of all time, announces retirement.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
I mean, yes, that was bad, but she also did
some good stuff.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
I agree, I agree, but also we could laugh at that.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
We can like love our politicians and also know that
they are often less than perfect.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
So as well, though, somebody you love to bring up
on this podcast as a Congressman from main secred district,
which is an R plus four district. Representative Jared Golden
is retiring and many people are worried that this is
a seat that Dems cannot win without him.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Yeah, who knows he's retiring. I don't know how happy
he was. Ever, the times that I met him, he
seems super unhappy. There's a lot of blaming going on
of whether people pushed him to drop out or I
don't know.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Are you telling me people are unhappy being a congressperson.
That's such a great job.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Everybody wants it like such a good job. But we'll see.
I mean again, he's dropping out. That's too bad. There
is going to be an open govenmentorial. There's going to
be you know, there's a lot of stuff to run
for in Maine right now. Justin Wolfers is the host
to be Thinking Like an Economist podcast and a professor
(08:03):
at the University of Michigan. Welcome back to Fast Polity.
It's Justin Wlfer's So the great news for the Trump
administration is when the government is shut down, you don't
get the numbers right.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
Just like how we solved COVID so exactly numbers, no problems.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
But it was he had already before shutting down. In
Trump's defense, before shutting down the government, he had fired
the head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
He made his position on data very clear. He's against it.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
He also has very strong position on truth.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
That's right optional. He likes truthiness.
Speaker 4 (08:42):
Yep, in small doses and only occasionally yes.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
At this point, does the government give us public data.
Still not really or yes or talk us through it.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
It's a very sad day. So I'm going to make
this personal if I may. Molly is I've been a
nerd for a very long time. When I left college,
my first deviate job was at the Reserve Bank of Australia.
And when you have a like the FED, and when
you get a job as a baby economist, they give
you one tiny sliver of the economy to look after.
And my job was the job's report. And so even
as a little baby economist, I would wake up.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
In a text say country in a very.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
In a magnificent and beautiful country with a functional democracy
and a well functioning economy, you don't love it anymore,
which I have family and think about during an anna
able winter. The job was like it would be jobs Day,
and I would wake up excited for jobs Day, even
as a twenty two year old. And then I moved
to America and I did my PhD, and you know,
(09:37):
you forget about the real world for a little while.
And then my better half, Betsy Stevenson, became the chief
economist at the Department of Labor, and so it became
this thing Friday, The first Friday of every month was
Job's Day, and she had to get in early and
brief the labor secretary and talk to the media and
crunch the numbers for what was then the first a
Bama administration, and so jobs. There was such a big
(09:58):
day in our household. And then I was writing for
New York Times, and I used to write about the
jobs numbers, and it was all very exciting, and it stays.
It's just a regular part of our monthly life ever since,
to the point that I literally our nanny would walk
in and say, Oh, it's a job's day today, how
are you feeling about the economy? And today I woke
(10:20):
up and it's the first Friday of the month, and
there was an enormous void in my life, the sense
of checking in on the workers and seeing how they're doing,
of hoping that the economy is moving forward and producing
more for more of us, of wondering what's next, of
thinking about policies that could make a difference. I did
(10:43):
none of that. I sat in the dark room, staring
at the corner, rocking backward and forward, crying, just one
solitary tear down my cheek, talk us through this.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
We don't have the government data, but we do have
some private data. Does that fill the void or does not?
Speaker 4 (11:01):
It's sort of like, you know, when mum and dad
get divorced and then mum starts dating a new guy,
but she's not really sure that he's going to be
around for very long, and maybe they've been dating two
months and he takes you out to the zoo. That
is the ADP Job Report. The ADGP job report is
not something well loved, has no particular track record, is
(11:24):
not particularly reliable, and when you need it, you don't
know if it'll always be there for you.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
So no, we don't.
Speaker 4 (11:31):
There's going to be a lot of press attention around
the ADP Job Report, and it came in yesterday, it
was or the day before. It was not as bad
as the past few have been, but still the important
thing is not the comparison with are you as bad
as last month? But are you good or bad? It
was unequickly pointing to a weak economy, but I don't
(11:52):
want anyone to place much stock in it. It is
a very unreliable indicator. So the truth is we're all
alone in the dock right now. I hope this doesn't
sound like I'm talking about my childhood.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
So I want you to I need you to sort
of pull back from the job support into what you
think the economy. So we have a federal government that's
pretty hostile, that's a the longest shutdown ever, be pretty
hostile to facts, reason truth. So how do you figure
out where the economy is? Knowing those two sayings?
Speaker 4 (12:29):
Okay, so the good news, then the bad news. The
good news is the government data is not the only
data that we have. I did warn you a moment
ago that private sick the data about the state of
the labor market is not as good as government data,
and that's absolutely stunningly true. So we have lost some
very important things. There do exist many other data sets.
(12:52):
For instance, the Federal Reserve, which is not affected by
the shutdown, collects industrial production, and so we know how
much stuff is coming out of factories. We're not going
to be getting GDP data, but we are going to
continue to see surveys of companies telling us how they're doing.
We have all sorts of things about our daily lives
and measured in all sorts of ways. We know restaurant
reservations through open table, and we've got a lot of
(13:14):
practice of this during the pandemic, when a lot of
our normal ways of thinking about the economy were broken.
What are some creative ways. So the good news is
we're not purely in the dark. The bad news is
it's pretty damn foggy, which is it's going to be
very hard to have any great sense of what's going
on that really really matters right now. Why right now?
(13:36):
Because it's possible, but by no means certain that we're
at a turning point. It's possible that. Remember we've been
talking about tariffs for eight months, and I know I've
brought everyone on this, but actually Trump has only really
truly imposed them a couple of months ago, and so
if they're going to have an effect, it would be
any day now. We are seeing some hints that the
economy is slowed right off, not just because of tariff's
(13:58):
by the way, but also we've had a huge to
immigration and new people create new stuff, and so that's
something that's really going to be missing as well. Those
are two enormous shocks that are hitting the economy right now.
And we do know enough to know that the economy
was slowing, and the question is are we slowing into
comfortable or are we slowing into a recession and we
(14:18):
actually have no way of knowing that right now, which
is a very very uncomfortable place to be in.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yeah, that does not sound good. And then the other question,
which you know, people will be listening to this podcast
on Saturday morning and we will be in the middle
of what Sean Duffy lovingly refers to as airplane armageddon,
where they basically just slow down air traffic because vibes.
(14:45):
So that seems like it could have larger consequences to
the economy.
Speaker 4 (14:50):
Well, you usually bring me in for the stuff that
you feel less confident on, and that's usually macroeconomics. You
feel terrific on finance, and when it comes to fashion, wow,
and politics for sure, and peace on gender. I thought
the other in the New York Times. I love that
l Thank you. So you want to talk about macroeconomics.
And the truth is that the government shutdown is going
to be a small impact in terms of its overall
(15:12):
macro stuff, right, So the headlines aren't going to change
a lot. That's position one. Position two that's also true
is every single holiday that's destroyed, every snap beneficiary who
went to bed, hungry and fearful last night.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Right, and that's started now. SNAP. The Trump administration is
not funding SNAP, even though federal judges have told them
they have to.
Speaker 4 (15:35):
So then they should be. And I don't you know,
none of us will believe it until the money's on
the card, which means the most vulnerable people in our
society who have no stockpile of cash, no.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Waves, forty percent of which are children, elderly, and ten
percent are disabled.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Let's just pause on that for a moment.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Mine, yeah, and FYI are white like even.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
That, we know that is and should be irrelevant. Let's
pull on the very human thing you said. It's profoundly important.
Many of our listeners, just like you and I Moly,
are fortunate enough. We're doing okay economically, and so we
don't think about how will I go to the grocery
store next week? What can I afford to buy?
Speaker 3 (16:16):
What is in the covert?
Speaker 1 (16:17):
But we do notice, I mean, I certainly noticed that
my grocery bells are humongous, like crazy high compared to
what I mean, there are much more, and if we're
noticing it, it means it's real. Everywhere.
Speaker 4 (16:32):
Food prices are up about three percent over the past year.
I am profoundly disgusted by anyone who can take the
most vulnerable and make them pawns in the political game.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
Why don't we just have a.
Speaker 4 (16:44):
Different kind of shutdown where tax cuts for millionaires get
put off for a few weeks. I mean, it's only
a weird accident, and well it's not even a weed accident.
It's also the illegality and then the approach to the administration.
But it's one of the most awful things I've seen
the American government do to its own people. And it
doesn't need to do it. There's money there, we know
how to spend it. I also want to pan back
(17:05):
because Molly, you're also you know, you're like, oh, what's
the fifth of the chapter, and you think about next
quarter's GDP When we go back to the things that
you were talking about, things like we no longer have
statistical agencies that are being told it's important to tell
the truth. Now so far they are telling the truth,
and they want to remind our listeners of that. But
when you fire the head of the BLS for no reason,
(17:26):
you're sending them a message. You can stop with that
truth stuff. When you have CEOs of major corporations walk
into the White House and walk out ten minutes later
with ten percent less of their company. When you have
the present.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Telling them that it's called socialism.
Speaker 4 (17:43):
It's called something asm and you have the administration ignoring
the courts when you have real questions, when you have
ice on the streets. All of this stuff. None of
it shows up in this quarter's GDP. But it's more
important than anything that shows up in next quarter's GDP.
(18:04):
That is not a political statement. That is an economic statement.
That is a statement that, on average, the average populist
leader over the last hundred years, when you elect them
a decade later, has led GDP to be about fifteen
percent lower. Let me say that more human terms. GDP's
a fancy word for you elect Trump like characters, and
(18:26):
history shows that a decade later, average income is fifteen
percent lower, and he could be worse. When you look
at these big questions, what makes the United States rich
and the country of my birth, which was Papulnian Guinea poor,
It's really about state capacity. It's about how we run
our economy. It's our political and economic institutions, and they're
(18:47):
all being burned down right now. None of that is
going to be next quarter's GDP. But everything we know
about how economies work tell us this is overwhelmingly the
most important thing going on. You can't see it, but
what we will know is that our kids are going
to wake up in ten or twenty years time and
the opportunities in front of them are going to simply
(19:09):
not be there. And it's these unborn opportunities. It's the
new ideas, the new industries that just simply never happened,
and that's the real cost and.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
The problems in China.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
I am trying to figure out how you tell this story,
so I need your help because it's not a story.
It's economic research. This is findings from serious people studying
hundreds of years of economic history among every country around
the world. And it's not so obvious, but this is
Folks like Emily do a great job telling it as
a political story, but this is an economic story as well.
(19:42):
And the American poor will be poorer as a result
of our pie being smaller as a result of everything
that's going on.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Yeah, thank you, Elon mush. So let's talk about where
we are right now. When it comes to we don't
have the data, we have have these tariffs. We have
the Supreme Court fight, this insane Supreme Court fight whether
Donald Trump has the power to do everything he's ever
wanted to do period paragraph. The questions with the Supreme Court,
(20:12):
this case, this tariff case, are so big because the
courts could side that Trump doesn't have the economic power
to do these things and it could not necessarily matter,
right Like they could say he has time to pay back,
or he has this, or is that. So I would
love it if you could explain to us, don't predict
the future, but just lay out what the possible lanes are.
Speaker 4 (20:35):
I think what you just says. Can you be an
economics professor for about five.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Minutes, but I'm the Supreme Court case.
Speaker 4 (20:42):
Yeah, okay. So here's the critical things for people to understand.
The Constitution. So the Constitution gives the power to tax
to Congress. Congress has delegated some of those authorities to
the White House because Congress understands that Congress is not
very nimble, and so for things like national security and
so on, you can live in new tariffs through the
White House without Congress.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
There's a process. But that's it.
Speaker 4 (21:04):
Trump decided he granted himself a new set of powers
that had never been used before. All of the tariffs
that are on individual countries, on China, on Canada, and
actually on every country around the world. Eighty percent of
what he's done has been country by country tariffs. There's
no legal authority for that. Trump claims he gets one
through what's called the Emergency Powers Act. The Emergency Powers
(21:27):
Act is two things are really important about it. One,
no where does it mention the word tariff or tax.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
You're suit a stickler for these words. And wait.
Speaker 4 (21:36):
Second, well, good that you're thinking about that, because the
second thing is stickler for words. It's called the Emergency
Powers Act. Yeah, so I know he wants the powers.
I think that means you got to have the emergency.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
As just as Amy brought up, what is the national
security reason for now? You could say Tokyo, you know,
you could say Japan, but then you can't also.
Speaker 4 (21:57):
Say tariff's'm bananas, right, you know?
Speaker 1 (22:01):
And me and Italy like it has it out?
Speaker 4 (22:06):
What about the aggression coming from north of the border
as Canadians far out won the World lost the World
Series even thank you, Yes, that's good. So those are
the central issues I listened to the Supreme Court argument.
They actually focused almost exclusively on the first days, which
was does the Emergency Powers Act give the President the
(22:27):
right over tariffs. The government's view was, Oh, if tariffs
work properly, no one will ever buy anything from abroad,
which means we'll collect no revenue. So therefore the revenue
is merely incidental. This is about regulating other countries. The
justices fought back and they said, if you want people
to not buy from other countries, here's a simple thing,
have an embargo. So it was the Boston tea Party,
(22:49):
not the Boston embargo Party, was sort of the claim. So,
in fact, the government made up a new word. It
took me a long time to realize they made up
a new word. They talked about revenue tariffs versus regulatory tariffs.
One of these there's actually only tariffs a book behind me.
On the bookshelf I might have written. It defines a
tariff as attacks on imports. It is a tax. So
(23:09):
the government wants to claim there's something called a regulation tariff.
It's literally a word. They just invent it. Yeah, doesn't exist.
So that's where most of the argument was. The justices
were pretty hostile because when Congress wants to get rid
of its taxing powers. It tends to be very very
very clear, and it didn't even use the word here.
But then you still get to the second problem, which is,
even if it had the power, does Trump have a
(23:31):
national emergency? This is where as an economist, the administration says,
we have a national emergency because we have a trade
unbalanced trade with specific countries. That's what it's called a
bilateral trade deficit. No economist alive thinks they matter. Not
even do we not think they're an emergency. We don't
even think they're interesting.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
So even like a Kevin Hasset.
Speaker 4 (23:54):
Even Kevin Hasset, if you tied him down and injected
him with honesty juice, yeah, Asset, it would take a
lot of honesty Jews.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
What about Stephen Moore?
Speaker 4 (24:06):
So stupid that it hurts?
Speaker 1 (24:07):
I mean, I just want to know who is the
dumbest MAGA economist.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
I am going to be really nice.
Speaker 4 (24:13):
I'm just gonna say I'm glad that there are people
now I can't even say nice things. I'm just going
to stay out of that. But like serious point for
the audience, what happens when a new administration comes to
town is usually they recruit the best and the brightest
every administration, not only in my lifetime, in the previous
fifty years. You can look at who was the chair
of the Council of Economic Advisors, Who were the nerds
and the wonks around the president, and they were the
(24:35):
best and brightest of their generation. Many a former Nobel
Prize winners, for ins a Nobel Prize winners, for instance.
What we have in the current White House is you
can take any ranking of the horsepower of economists, and
many exist. By the way, there is no one in
the White House who is in America's ten thousand best economists.
That's not a hint of exactly, that's a quantitative statement.
(24:56):
They've gone dragging through the gutter. Stupid is jupid does?
I don't want to be that guy. I hate being
that guy. But it's not a well advised White House.
Maybe in competence is part of the strategy.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
We're at a time. What are you going to watch
for over the next couple of weeks, economic indicators, what's
coming down the pike.
Speaker 4 (25:17):
I think the most interesting thing is going to be
the Supreme Court tariff case. It's probably going to happen quickly,
according to the legal nerds I talked to, not tomorrow quickly,
but maybe you know even before Thanksgiving. That'd be amazing,
wouldn't it. Have you Thanksgiving talk about tariffs around the Turkey. If,
as I expect, the Trump tarift's areroyalt illegal, we're going
to move from eight months of unconstitutional, illegal tariff turmoil
(25:40):
that have created all sorts of headaches to a whole
new set of tariff turmoil, some of which in the
future may even be constitutional. But it'll be this crazy,
crazy soap opera in which the president tries to run
an economy by pretending he and he alone can move
the pieces around the global economy chessboard. So if you
(26:02):
think you've seen myhem strapping this plenty more ahead.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
I was told trade wars are good and easy to win.
Thank you, justin.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
Thank you, Molly.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Governor Tim Walls is a former vice presidential candidate and
the governor of the great state of Minnesota. Welcome back
too fast Politics, Governor Walls.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
It's good to be with you, Molly. It's been too long,
but you had a whole row of great guests you've
had on so glad to be back.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
I just wanted to talk to you. I just felt
like we needed to catch up about how and there's
something about this particular moment in American life after this,
you know, we're talking in the week of the twenty
twenty five cycle, which was a tiny, tiny cycle, but
a huge repudiation of trump Ism.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Absolutely, And look it helps me process too, because I
keep thinking, you know, year ago, we needed to see
these numbers, but these candidates and the American people showed
up in huge numbers. We were just talking. You know,
we now have the most female governors we've ever had
in American history, with Governor Alex Banberger and Cheryl and
then of course, you know winning in New York City
(27:18):
governor's race. The party is broad and we're proud of that.
But I just think for me, it was just good
to see what we all knew, that the American people
at heart are kinder people, They care more, that this
cruelty and this stuff isn't what they're looking for. So
I agree this is it was therapeutic. We know that
it was one moment in time, but it's encouraging and
(27:42):
I'm just grateful to the folks that went out and
voted and some of the massive swings we saw of
young people coming back and Hispanic voters, and so good
to be with you at this point.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
It's interesting because it's like, you know, the twenty twenty
four cycle for me, and I know for you too,
was just there was something about it that was just
devastating that I felt that, you know, it was in
all different ways, you know, a referendum on sort of
(28:13):
goodness and sandy and the American people said yet again
for the second time, and so I just would love
you know, we haven't talked since that election. You want
to talk about like what it was like for you,
because I know what it was like for me, and
it wasn't my name on that ticket.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Well, first of all, you know, and I think Vice
President Harris articulated so well that night when we found
out we weren't going to win, my first thought went
to what we knew would happened the most vulnerable. And
here we sat with Donald Trump building a ballroom and
going to court to deny food to children, not just
trying to do it. He did it, tried it, lost court.
(28:52):
Did you know, provide the food and that's not good enough.
So my thought, you know, the sense of ownership I had,
and that I knew there was going to be the
most vulnerable We're going to feel this.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
This is the first shutdown ever, the longest shutdown ever,
and the first one where the government has decided the
Trump administration has decided not to fund snap.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
Yeah, it's it's beyond the payout.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
It is.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
It is a cruelty. But look if at this point
in time, we don't understand that cruelty is not a bug,
it's a feature revenge and pettiness. If if selfishness is it.
It's all grounded in that. And and look, I Molly,
you talked about this. I don't think this surprises you.
It doesn't. It doesn't surprise me. But as a teacher
(29:33):
and as an elected official, I you know, I needed
to articulate that stronger. I think about that election and
elections are always about change. And you know, and I
think we got we were seen as status quo. I
would I would say what you said, Molly, is I
think we were status quo of decency and goodness and
order and not chaos. But the public wanted to see
(29:53):
something else. And you know, Trump promised these farmers they
were going to be rich. Well, now they're going bankrupt,
he crisis were going to come down. He didn't. So
I think what happened is the American people And look,
I think we saw what seven percent of Trump voters
in some of these states switched back. He lied to them,
and they're tired of it. And now we have an opportunity,
(30:14):
which I think our candidates did tell them what we
stand for. Yeah, you can scream all you want of
them trying to make you know, Mayor elect Mondania face
of the Democratic Party. He's talking about bringing housing costs deck,
he's talking about making a city more liveable, if at
all possible, you know, I think. And then you see
that in Virginia, you see it in uh, you know,
(30:37):
state house races across the country. So I think the
Democrats now have a chance to say, look, you obviously
are sick of Trump. Here's what we can offer you.
And that's what.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Yeah, but what was it? I just am curious, like
for my own just because we're friends, Like, what was it? Like,
I mean, I just basically wrote, you know, I wrote
a bunch of pieces about the stuff I got wrong.
I tried to sort of take stock I think of
you as I don't know I feel like you you
are sturdy midwestern governor who really did show the country
(31:10):
that you're that you had a real national profile. You
got a lot of the kind of criticism that you
get when you have a national profile. But was it
I mean, first of all, what was it like to
go from sturdy midwestern governor to like, you know, to
everyone's did he you know, was was he the right pick?
(31:31):
And then also just like was it like I mean,
and has it changed you?
Speaker 3 (31:36):
Yeah? Well, first of all was an honor and it
was And I view all these jobs just like I
viewed my teaching job, and you know, in Congress and
thing it was public service. And I got asked by
the Vice President of the United States to try and
help her win. That was my job. I did it
to the best of my ability. Certainly not flawless. We
all have, you know, our things we can do better at.
(31:57):
But I was very proud that we were articulating at decency.
We are articulating a vision around whether it was healthcare, expansion,
home ownership, we were going to tackle problems like climate change.
So I was really proud. It was very short the
times that we were there. Again, I think back and
I think you have to do this reassessed. Could I
have been more you know, effective doing this? And I
(32:19):
don't think it's necessarily you know, rehashing something. But I
think we as ingercress have to learn why didn't we win?
Why did we win? What could we do better? Now?
Obviously I said, it's really frustrating to me. Is we
not only did we not win, we lost to that guy? Yeah,
and the it is the worst part. And I feel,
you know, personally, but like people said, you know, are
(32:40):
you doing okay? Are you going to be okay? Look,
older white guys who are governors, they tend to land
pretty song you're okay. But I said where I wasn't
okay was is knowing what I needed to do so
for me. And this is where I think, you know,
I've talked some but I haven't talked in depth of
Vice President Harris. I think it was very both therapeutic
(33:01):
and good. I just came right back home and got
to work. And we had a horrific summer. My best
friend was murdered, we had children shot in a church,
you know, so it was a horrific summer. But I was.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
Talking about this the minute speaker Melissa Wortman murdered, political
murder in her bed with her dog and her husband
by a conservative right.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
And a president who used that as an opportunity to
and senators from Utah to slander Minnesota.
Speaker 4 (33:33):
Me.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
So, look, I had something to do, and.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Your name was on that list too.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
Yeah, well yeah, all of us, all the Democrats were,
you know. And then he would have killed more people
had he and he had the chance. So all that's
going on. Then we have children murdered on the first
day of school. I'm trying to fight for gun violence.
I'm trying to get rid of assault weapons and high
capacity magazines. So I had a place to go back
to and to do the work. And I think for me,
what was so encouraging about this is is that, look,
(34:00):
this was a catastrophic loss last fall, catastrophic for the country,
catastrophic for democracy. We have innocent people being swept up
off the streets. We have moms being yanked out of
their car and their babies driven away, you know, and things.
I mean, this is so horrific. But I have the
capacity to do something about it, at least in Minnesota,
so I'm back at it. I do think there were
(34:21):
lessons learned the affordability piece on this.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
Can I just ask one question? This is like a
hobby horse of mine, as someone who's written so much
about that CSYCHO, I felt that the consultant class would
constantly get in there and be like, you know, like
I think of you as a politician with very good instincts,
and that every time something would take off, the consultant
class would go in there and like smush it is
that just my own fantasy? Did you see that happening?
(34:48):
I mean, there was so much. There was such a
group of very no i know, making a ton of
you know, just you know.
Speaker 3 (34:57):
Yeah, well, look, first, it is so big. You know,
I've run statewide campaigns, but they pale in comparison. It
was so big. There's so many moving pieces in plans
that have to go. And look, I signed on very clearly.
My job was to get Kamala Harris elected president and
then to serve her in the role of her vice
president whatever she needed, whatever that looked like. So I'm
(35:18):
a team player, I have agency. You know. There were
things like I can speak up and there were things
that I did. But when I signed up and said
I'm on board, I said I'll follow the plan, and
I think retrospectively, you know, I've said this not critique.
I think it's just reality. I think we were too
cautious and played to not lose, play to win.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
That is the consultant class that did.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
That's their job. That's their job, and I have to
trust them. So I mean, in retrospect on everything, you
go back and say, maybe we should have done this differently.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
But certainly do you wish she hadn't trusted them a
little bit? Though, Like because I see.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
So many I don't know if it's an option though.
You know, when in this year on the ticket, my
job was to not cause any grief. And you know
I could give my put in and that there's great
folks in there and lots of thousands of people working.
They would take a look. I'll just give you one example.
I had a few minutes one afternoon I know, some
hotel somewhere and it's when I'm watching a football game
(36:12):
on a Sunday afternoon before we get ready to go again,
and the transgender at popped up. I very you know,
instinctively felt this. I said, this ad is dangerous. It's
dangerous if we don't respond because I think we have
to to defend people who shouldn't be you know where
my position is on transgender Yes, I'm only.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
There's no reason to throw the throw one under the
bus in anyone, but there's no reason to respond.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
Yeah, and there's no reason after Tuesday to change that either,
because we can do two things at once. Make affordability
a prisent but support human rights. That's one where I
think you get kind of paralyzed and decided that that
one would just slide by. And it wasn't the old
because it was a double killer because to not respond
to it, I felt like allies felt like they being
(37:00):
a band and that wasn't the case. Kamala Harris has
stood with them. You always would. So you've got smart
people making decisions and looking at polling and all that.
And I think my biggest thing is is that I
would loyal and I'm loyaled and will continue till the
day I died to Kamala Harris and the team made decisions.
Did we get them all right? Well, if we had,
we probably would have won.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
And so I mean, I just I just think about
it so much because I think about like the sort
of successful Democrats who break through, right, the kind of
Chris Murphy's yes, or the Bernie Sanders, so it's not ideological,
or the even the governor Pritzker's right, the people. Pritzker
obviously it's a little bit different because he's got ice
(37:40):
attacking his city twenty seven. But like Tho, you know,
those three they're not ideological, but they all have managed
to sort of permeate the news bubble.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
Where they're authentic. They're authentic, and they're in the moment.
You can feel them in the moment.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Whereas you have, like democratic leadership, it's hard to think
of a moment that Chuck Schumer has really nailed or
Hakeem And so that's my question.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
The job is hard. No, you're right, and look, I
think it's a healthy exercise to talk about it. But
I also think we have seen this, that authenticity. You've
got to be disciplined enough. You talked about this, Molly,
and I told the Vice president this. I said, Look,
I think, you know, I think you'll get good stuff
out of me most of the time, and about ten
(38:24):
percent of the time I think it'll be really good.
And then there's going to be about ten percent that'll
be problematic. I think, you know, you talk, and I
think it's about managing risk. And I think there's a
risk averseness in these campaigns that I don't even say
that as a pejorative, but the route to take less risky,
and I think in an extrasential race like we saw
(38:45):
because I was convinced, I keep telling this story, Molly.
I didn't know this, but we did an off the
record stop in southern Georgia and I was on the
bus with the Vice President. We're driving down small rural
roads and there's little girls, little black girls out there
with signs, unpaigned signs that said Kamala and it you know,
I'm like, oh. And we stopped at a school. We're
in a band room and it's a Friday afternoon in
(39:08):
the fall. The band is playing the fight song, the
cheerleaders are in there, the football team is in there.
We're going to go in there and do a little
off the record for the cameras type of thing whenever.
And we walk in there and the first thing Kamala
Harris says is, oh, I love this room. I was
a band kid, and I'm like, you were a band kid.
American needs to know you're a band. You know what
I'm saying. There's something quintessentially about being in band in
(39:32):
a school, just like there is about being a football coach,
a science teacher, whatever it might be. It was such
a humanizing moment, It was so good, and I just thought, Man,
we should run with this stuff. We should do more
of this. I don't think America knew that, because you know,
that's their goal, to make us unlikable. We can't possible
this guy can't possibly be a football coach and a
(39:53):
soldier who grew up on a farm and knows about
agg economy. So we got to do whatever we can
to make him just so alien to us. And I
don't think the consultant class responds to that.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
I didn't know that, and I covered the campaign and
interviewed her a bunch. I think that kind of carefulness
is sort of is ultimately the undoing of some of
these of some of some democratic politicians.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
No, I think you're right, and I look, say what
you will, and my wife Gwyn gets this ride or whatever,
the horrificness of the character of Donald Trump, But that
whole thing of there's something in that when people say
I know it drives us all nuts if you're progressive, well,
at least Donald Trump, you know, speaks how he's feeling
or whatever. There is some truth in that he doesn't
get penalized for the horrific things he says, like you know,
(40:41):
you name it. There's countless ones that's viewed more as well.
At least he's authentic, and I don't feel like I'm
being sold to Bill of goods. You know. It's not
an excuse to be sloppy, but it should be an
excuse to if you get asked a question, try your
best to answer it. Yeah, your best to answer it.
Try and be there, you know. And I think we
watched this and the Republicans obviously trying to make Mayor
(41:02):
Elec Mandani the face of the party. But if you're
a Democrat, why are you running from other Democrats? You know,
you can disagree and say, look, I don't agree with
all of his policies, this is not something I would do,
but the people of New York should be able to vote.
And look, if you're living in Albuquerque, New Mexico, I
don't think you should be probably overly concerned who the
mayor of New York City is. And I think there's
(41:23):
a cautiousness. You see people like go out of their
way to like deny that these things happen.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
My favorite things that you did in the campaign were
the stuff about fixing your car like this sort of no,
but seriously, like the car talk. I don't know, did
you ever listen to car talk?
Speaker 3 (41:42):
What did click and clack? Yeah? Yeah, I loved it.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
When I was a kid, my dad would drive me
to stuff and we listened to car talk and it
was like, you know, it was just an American thing.
And that kind of stuff I felt like was some
of the stuff and I don't, you know, I barely drive,
but the kind of stuff that I felt was very
relatable and just who you are.
Speaker 3 (42:06):
Yeah. And I think the same thing would be true
of Kamala when she talked about like cooking and things.
And I think there's lessons in this, and we saw
it with these candidates. You know, to be real who
you are, don't try and be something you're not, and
then proudly stand on the things that we believe in
and and then do it for people.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
And also more I mean like Donald Trump, you know
he did fall asleep at his desk yesterday or the
day before, or maybe both, but he did do like
he does do five pool sprays. He he does do
a ton of.
Speaker 3 (42:36):
I couldn't agree more. No, I couldn't agree more. And
that's a lesson we learned. And I think, you know,
not seeing podcasters and you know, and influencers or wherever
you're gonna go with it, not seeing them as like
you know, this novelty thing on the side, but seeing
part of your bigger plan. And you do this and
then understand the simplicity of I gotta tell you, Molly again.
(42:57):
I think it was either North care Liner Georgia. Final
weeks of the campaign, I started seeing these little signs
all over the place pop up Trump good, Kamala bad,
Trump saved, Kamala crime, and it was They're good and
they were just random that had been printed and they
were all over and my first instinct would be, and
this is where you can get kind of trapped in.
(43:18):
This is like, h it's ridiculous. And then I started
to realize, holy crap, those things are super effective. They
are super one small piece. I don't know how much
money they spent on them, combination of things and was
there enough of us? And then you know, in no
disrespect to the large legacy media, but preparing and prepping
for an interview on CNN that probably had less viewers
(43:40):
than I would get on this podcast. Yeah, no, for
sure true and.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
So yeah no, I mean and also like I do
think there should be more of like, especially people like you,
going on stuff like Rogan, because Joe Rogan did not
leave the Democratic Party, right, it's just that Donald Trump
made his bat you know, try desperately to get on.
I mean, it's going on there. I mean they you know.
Speaker 3 (44:06):
I agree, And look, it's not about being arrogant. I mean,
it's just know this stuff whatever I find this happened
time and time again. When you're in a position like
this and when you can't meet everybody, they will caricature.
They make a caricature. Of course, their go to is
if we're in the military, they swift boat us. It
doesn't matter if it's true or not. They have this
pattern and it sinks in enough to erode faith. And
what I said is I feel very confident in this.
(44:27):
If people like Rogan and other people, if I meet
them and sit down and talk to them, I guarantee
you they leave saying well, I didn't expect that. Yeah,
we expect that because they've been fed a line that's
not true. Michaels is in public service and servant leadership
is to find solutions going forward. And I have worked
with Republicans and right now I know that there's some
Democrats that, oh, that guy's willing to compromise. You know,
(44:51):
I'm not with him. That's our problem inside our party.
We'll figure that. But the vast majority of Americans just
want effectiveness. And I think if you don't go on
those shows, you don't show them, it's easy to demonize you.
I watched, just not that long ago, Joe Rogan going
off on an AI video of me. It's some guy
wearing a you know, f Donald Trump shirt dancing down
(45:11):
an escalator.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
Right, it's not true.
Speaker 3 (45:13):
Why the hell would I ever do anything like that,
And it's pretty out of character.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
You're running for reelection, I am. This will be your
third term.
Speaker 3 (45:22):
Yes, tell me, well, I think the moment is it again.
I don't think that I'm the only one. I don't
can do this. I don't think that you have a
lock on these These are not your jobs. I think
here in Minnesota we're a truly purple state that I
think people don't recognize. Of all the swing states, thank goodness,
Minnesota we won, and you know that was my job
(45:42):
to help win the other ones. But I think right
now we've moved Minnesota in a progressive way where we're
consistently seeing now we ranked near the top of whether
it's raising a child, starting a business. We're going to
start and have the most aggressive paid family medical leave
kicks in on the first. We are protecting reproductive rights,
We're protecting our transgender children, we are innovating around healthcare,
and lots of things are in absolute opposition to Trump.
(46:06):
And right now, every single day, I spend my time
thinking about how we can improve the lives of Minnesota
and fighting a rearguard action about the nonsense that Trump
is bringing. And I think I have twelve years of
congressional experience, eight years as governor. I've been through everything
from the pandemic to George Floyd to seeing the national stage.
I think I'm best prepared and probably better qualified than
(46:27):
anybody who's ever run for governor. And I think I
can provide a bit of that firewall. But I don't
take it for granted. The people of Minnesota will speak.
I feel like right now I'm working harder than on
any campaign I've ever worked, and I feel like last
fall showed me this. If a Republican wins in Minnesota,
we will get rid of reproductive rights and we are
the beacon for the Midwest Usin Illinois, we will turn
(46:50):
our backs on climate change, we will demonize the most
vulnerable amongst US, and we will weaken what is America's
most progressive taxation system. And so I really feel like
protecting those things we did that I'm best positioned to
do that. We've got an open Senate seat here, and
I think you know how these things work in a
state the size of Minnesota, having an open Senate and
an open governor massively expensive.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
Yes, thank you, Governor Wall.
Speaker 3 (47:14):
We'll get back again. You're the best.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
You're the best. Thank you, Thank you, No no moment second.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
Jesse Cannon, my Trumpism often has talked about us saying
the quiet part out loud constantly. Steve Betta just going
for new heights, like, you know, like the guy's not
in the best shape, but he's jumping Olympic levels high
of telling on themselves.
Speaker 1 (47:40):
Yeah, you know, so when I saw this video. It
was like, you know how it is now You're like,
this is probably AI and then you're like, oh, no, no,
it's not. This is a quote. I tell you right
as God as my witness. If we lose the midterms
and we lose twenty twenty, some in this room are
(48:02):
going to prison, Bannon told the crowd at the awards
event hosted by the Conservative Partnership Academy. I think he
then added, didn't he add I am two or no?
I guess he didn't.
Speaker 2 (48:16):
I think that that was implied by some in this
room because if we remember, he did the build the
wall thing, and he narrowly.
Speaker 1 (48:22):
Evaded he went to prison.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
He did go to prison. Actually that was for the
contempt around the other thing as well. You know, there's
still hell to pay with many of his deeds.
Speaker 1 (48:32):
Yes, no question.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
You know, for people like you and me, this is
a real get out the vote operation. Bring Ben into jail.
Speaker 1 (48:39):
Yeah, correct, that is true. It is a get out
of the vote. I also think, like the fact that
they're saying this now shows there's just a lot of anxiety.
I think they're going to do a lot of crazy
stuff to try and make it hard for people to vote.
I think that seems like it's clearly on the horizon,
so certainly worrying, certainly something to keep watching out for,
(49:02):
and certainly the Steve Bannon we know, delivering the hits
as only he can.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
Oh, when you talk that many hours on air all day,
you're gonna say some real dumb things.
Speaker 1 (49:14):
Thad for yourself. That's it for this episode of Fast Politics.
Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear
the best minds and politics make sense of all this chaos.
If you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a
(49:35):
friend and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.
Host
Molly Jong-Fast
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