May 20, 2020 • 32 mins
You might not know the name Grace Hopper even though it’s hard to imagine our lives without her work. Born in 1906 to a family of engineers, Grace was fascinated with the mechanics of objects from a young age. She was a no-nonsense dynamo, driven by guts and determination, so when the US entered World War II, Grace knew she had to join the war effort even though the military held few places for women. She nevertheless joined a team at Harvard that was hard at work on the Mark I, a calculating machine…or rather, the first large-scale automatic digital computer in the United States. It became Grace’s job to figure out how to program it. But Grace didn’t just program it, she taught humans to communicate with machines in a way that made every single computing leap since her time possible.
COBOL—the first computer language—was Grace’s great invention; a leap of imagination that did not only help America win the war, but made the computer vastly more useful than it was originally intended to be.
Grace is the grandmama of the Fourth Industrial Revolution, the technological leap that changed the world, and Jo discusses its legacy with Parisa Tabriz, a director of engineering at Google, and proud owner of a cat named Grace Hopper.
Main Sources
- Grace Hopper and the Invention of the Information Age (Lemelson Center Studies in Invention and Innovation series) - by Kurt Beyer
- An Oral History of Captain Grace Hopper by the Computer History Museum - Interview conducted by: Angeline Pantages - Naval Data Automation Command, in Maryland in December of 1980
- A 60 Minutes segment entitled ‘The Captain is a Lady’ from March 6, 1983
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Um. Humans are allergic to change. They love to say
We've always done it this way. I try to fight that.
That's why I have a clock on my wall that
runs counter clockwise. A clock that runs counterclockwise sounds like
(00:24):
something you might read in a biography of Steve Jobs
or Mark Zuckerberg, maybe Bill Gates. It is the quote
of a tech innovator, Grace Hopper, the woman who catapulted
the world into the Fourth Industrial Revolution, the age of technology.
The Fourth Industrial Revolution is where we create a machine
which can actually mimic the brain. That's Dr Kirk Byer,
(00:47):
an adviser to entrepreneurs and disruptive Technologies at University of California, Berkeley.
And each of the previous industrial revolutions were started by
a group of individual inventors, say a Thomas Edison or
a Tesla or a what Grace Hopper was that person
for the Fourth Industrial Revolution? Yet when I would talk
(01:08):
to people here in Silicon Valley, I was in shocked
that most people didn't even know who she was. It
was Grace Hopper who fundamentally changed the way early computers worked,
so much so that almost everything we do today wouldn't
be possible without her from I Heart Radio and Tribeca Studios.
(01:34):
This is fierce I can't type Women. We're going to
do Presenting Problems, a podcast about the incredible women who
never made it in your history books and the modern
women carrying on their legacies today. Us to the ladies,
the fair and the week I can't find Women worker,
don't mind routine repetitive work. Will you make a copy
(01:55):
of this naturally? Each week we're bringing you the story
of a groundbreaking woman from the past who made huge
contributions to the present, but whose name still isn't on
the tips of our tongues for whatever reason. Maybe it's
because men wrote most of history. At the end of
each episode, I'll be joined by a woman living today
(02:16):
who's standing on the shoulders of this historical figure, whether
she knows it or not. Grace Hopper was born in
New York City on December the eldest of three children
to a fairly progressive family, with parents who saw the
(02:36):
education of girls as equal to the education of boys.
Her father was an insurance broker. Her mother had a
passion for mathematics, which might have taken her far had
barriers for women at the time not been so high.
As a kid, Grace liked to take a part household
appliances to learn how they worked. She graduated Phi Beta
Kappa from Vassar College in nine with a BA in
(02:57):
mathematics and physics, but her education didn't in there. She
went on to get a master's and a PhD in
mathematics from Yale. In prominent families in New York cities
in the nineteen twenties, it was almost expected that the
women would go to college and get educated. That's Dr
Buyer again. He wrote a book on the first thirty
years of the computer age entitled it Grace Hopper and
(03:20):
the Invention of the Information Age. One thing that I
think struck me was the fact that women's progress is
not linear. It actually goes up and down. So we
had during this period women getting not only undergrad degrees,
but graduate degrees at an unprecedented rate, and that rate
wasn't matched until Grace got married soon after graduation to
(03:44):
Vincent Foster Hopper, a scholar who would soon join the
English faculty at n y U. After that, she was
hired into the mathematics faculty at Fasser. It wasn't her
first choice of career. I wanted to be an engineer.
That's an actress reading Grace's words. You also heard her
at the start of the episode. The sources for these
quotes are her biographer Kirt Buyer, and an interview conducted
(04:04):
by Angeline Pantaj for the Computer History Museum. My grandfather
had been a civil engineer, and he was a senior
civil engineer in the city of New York. He used
to take me with him when he went out surveying,
and you let me hold the red and white pole.
He also let me look through his gadget, and I
wanted to be an engineer. My dad always made things.
(04:26):
I've always been fascinated with how things work and making
things work. But there was no place at all for
women in engineering when I graduated in the thirties, when
she started working, we saw one of these cycles again
where women didn't have as many opportunities, and that in
part was created by the Great Depression, So we don't
(04:49):
really have an explosion of opportunity for women again until
the war years, until the nineteen forties. So academia it was,
and Grace made the most of it. She was insatiably
curious and took classes and everything from zoology to architecture
to astronomy. She brought all of that newfound knowledge into
her mathematics classroom, and that made her a wildly popular
(05:11):
instructor who actually made math interesting. The establishment, of course,
didn't love Grace's approach. They disapproved practically everything I did
because I wasn't doing the right things. I was going
off into things which were not mathematics. One former student
remembered it differently, saying simply that Grace was an inspiration.
(05:43):
Everything about the world changed in ninety one. Are now
covers the globe. December the seventh was the day of infamy.
Japan turns the one specific ocean into a sea of blood.
Oh say, war blackens the sky in the East. In
the wake of Pearl Harbor and America's entrance into World
War Two, Grace was eager to join the war effort.
(06:05):
I think a lot of people after Pearl Harbor were
interested in joining the war effort. Her husband at the time,
Vince Foster, he did join the war effort. I wanted
very badly to get into the navy, so I finally
gave vass an ultimatum. If they wouldn't release me, I
would stay out of work for six months because I
(06:26):
was going into the Navy period. Now in her mid thirties,
Grace was considered too old for service, but she used
her mathematics degree to get an exception, and the military
was in desperate need of mathematicians. They led a report
to Midshipman school in December of She absolutely loved it.
Midshipman camp is the officers version of boot camp in
(06:50):
the Navy, and usually this is a very difficult time
for most young people. I found quotes from her where
she said it was one of the most relaxing times
of life because she didn't have all the responsibilities of
family and teaching, advass or on her shoulders. Around this time,
(07:11):
her marriage began to suffer, or maybe it had been
suffering for a long time and this was a way out.
I never was able to get to the root of it,
but I suspect that the fact that they went their
separate ways trying to serve the country after Pearl Harbor
was somewhat connected in terms of maybe their marriage wasn't
(07:33):
as solid as it could have been. The military quickly
made her a part of a team working on the
Bureau of Ordnance Computation project at Harvard University. She was
working on the Mark one, a calculating machine, or rather
a computer, the first large scale automatic digital computer in
(07:55):
the United States. Grace worked on the very first computer.
It was a top secret a program at Harvard during
World War Two. Those first computers were built like any
other human technology up to that point. They were built
to just do one thing. And that sounds so strange
to us now, but that's how technology was always created.
(08:16):
You invented a typewriter and all it did was typewrite
right then to hammer and use it to hammer nails.
Meaning the Mark one and other early computers were actually
physically built to solve one kind of problem, say a
physics or engineering problem to unreeldy for humans to calculate.
There was no such thing as software. If you wanted
the computer to solve a different kind of problem, you
(08:37):
essentially had to reconfigure the machine every single time. It
was Grace Hopper who invented away around that. I started
to work on the Mark one second of July. There
was no such thing as a programmer at that point.
We had a code book for the machine and that
was all and listed the codes what they did, and
we had to work out all the beginning of programming
(08:58):
and writing programs and all the rest. But Grace was
working under a man named Howard Aiken at the time,
and Aiken made no secret of the fact that he
was annoyed the Navy had to signed him a woman.
He was vocal about it with the other men on
the staff. She was assigned as a number two person
at the project. Aiken at first was very upset about this.
(09:18):
He didn't expect that a woman would be named number two,
but Grace's mathematical skill set was in high demand at
that wartime moment, and she was deemed the best available
person for the job. If you're going to play by
the rules of the military. She's the second highest ranking
person at the facility, so that means that she's second
in charge. He quickly came to realize how amazing she
(09:40):
was at actually getting this machine to function, because at
that point it was still a prototype. When I walked
in there, Aikin had not wanted a woman officer, and
I had said he was going to want a woman officer.
Despite the outward hostility, Grace was in her element in
the lab. She went about learning everything there was to
(10:03):
learn about the machine. Spent many sleepless nights going over
blueprints circuit diagrams. The groundbreaking realization she had was that
rather than starting from scratch with every new problem the
war effort presented, she could create these building blocks of
code that could be stored in the library. This was
literally a broom closet where she and her team hung
(10:23):
the paper tape that was used to code the machine.
The fifty ft five time machine. Coders today used the
same technique, borrowing blocks of code, often available for free
on the internet, rather than reinventing every component of the
wheel every single time. Once they created, say the co
Sign paper tape code, they could save that in a library,
(10:46):
and then if they were asked a different type of
problem to solve that needed, say a cosign, they could
just add in that part of the co Sign code
with other code that they were creating to get the
machine to then solve new equations. Commander Howard Hin came
up to my desk one day and he said, you're
(11:06):
going to write a book. I said, I can't write
a book, and he said, you're in the Navy. Now.
That settled that end. I learned to write a book.
Grace authored a five plus page manual of the Mark
one's operations. It would end up becoming one of the
formative documents about how early computers worked. She was great
(11:26):
at not only theorizing how to do it, but then
helping her team and training her team to actually make
it a reality. I wrote about five pages a day,
which I had to read it aco at the end
of the day. If you rejected them, I had to
start them over again. It was a programming manual, even
though the word programmer didn't exist back then. I was
(11:49):
a mathematical officer. We ran the computer. We did everything.
We were coders. I wrote programs for both Mark one
and Mark two. This is the point where Upper starts
creating the initial fundamentals of programming. While Grace Hopper can't
be credited with the invention of the computer itself the hardware,
(12:11):
she can be credited with the leap of imagination it
took to make the computer into something vastly more useful
than it was originally intended to be. So it was
Hopper that said, well, if we can get the computer
to reconfigure itself, then we can have it solve lots
of different problems. It was no small task. The US
(12:33):
government wanted a calculating machine that could solve all different
kinds of engineering problems for warships and aircraft, even calculate
rocket trajectories. The whole drive was just on one thing.
Just when the war there was one special phone which
was directly connected to the Bureau of Ordnance in Washington. Well,
we used to shake every time that darn thing ran.
(12:55):
The issue at that time is World War two starts
becoming a war of scientific and mathematical calculations. For instance,
Hopper and her team solved the implosion problem for the
nuclear bomb that probably could not have possibly been solved
using the old techniques. Howard Achan was proven wrong about Grace,
(13:20):
very wrong. He would later concede Grace was a good man.
Grace Hopper may have sold Achan on the fact that
she was just as skilled as any man. But Harvard
was another story. While Aken continued to live the charmed
life of a tenure tract professor at the university, Grace
(13:42):
Hopper was a mere faculty research fellow with a three
year contract. They didn't promote women at Harvard at that point,
so at the end of three years, my time was up.
She's now at the cutting edge of this new technology.
We of course know how important that technology would become.
Yet she wasn't asked to be a professor at Harvard
(14:03):
because they didn't have women professors at Harvard, where Howard
Aikin was given a full professorship at Harvard, she was
asked to leave the Navy because they shut down the
waves program. So she finds herself in without a professorship,
without a job, an expert at this new cutting edge field,
(14:29):
but pretty much the society wasn't allowing her to continue.
Being in the Navy had always been one of Grace's
most treasured dreams, to make it in into a position
of high command, no less, and then because of her gender,
to be asked to leave that must have been devastating.
(14:51):
I think that's probably the most tragic part of her story.
This is actually a period where she she struggles with
alcoholism as well. For as outspoken as she was, Grace
was an incredibly private person, and that means we don't
know much about her personal struggles. What we do know
is that her drinking and depression escalated while working under
(15:13):
the intense wartime pressure. It became an actual problem when
her time at Harvard came to an end. In November
of nine, Grace was arrested at three am for drunk
and disorderly conduct. She was placed in the hospital custody
for treatment. They eventually released her to her friend, Edmund Berkeley.
According to Buyer, Berkeley was desperate the help her. He
(15:36):
wrote Grace an impassioned intervention letter. Berkeley wrote that her
alcoholic habit had quote warped most of the intellectual processes
that you would ordinarily use to attack your alcoholism. He
appealed to Grace's intellect and her ego. He told her
her brain was too important to waste. Little is known
(15:57):
about Grace's road to recovery, but we do no She
relied on the support of Berkeley and her community in
order to overcome our addiction. We'll be back with more
of Grace's story after a quick break. Grace did a
(16:19):
lot of interviewing after Harvard and finally landed a position
with E M c C, a startup in Philadelphia that
was eventually acquired by the Remington Rand Corporation. She became
part of the team that developed the UNIVAC one computer,
the first known large scale electronic computer to go to market.
Unlike our team at Harvard, Grace's team at e m
c C was mostly women. That computer startup company, I
(16:42):
think is also the saving Grace for her own career
and her own sanity in some respects as well. See
after the War, computer science and programming jobs in the
private sector often became viewed as women's work. It's a
concept we do very well to remember today. Jack supposed
that now with you know the images I grew up
(17:04):
in the nineteen eighties of kind of the male geek
who is the computer programmer. It's good to remember that
during the nineteen fifties software and program was actually dominated
by Grace and her team of women. It was while
she was at a MCC that Grace began to think
(17:24):
of something fairly revolutionary. She began to think that computer
languages could be more intuitive, could even be based on
the English language. We had proposed that originally, and it
sure got Clawbard. So by this point Hopper had demonstrated
this notion of coding. She became the head of automatic
(17:44):
programming for UNIVAC. Their early tenants of software start being
formed at Ecronomatically Corporation by Hopper, and then of course
that seminal moment is when she invents the compiler. At
the time, computer languages were written using a mixture of
wildly confusing symbols and binary code. There was another bunch
(18:06):
of people who were in data processing who hated symbols
and wanted words, So why not give them a word
oriented language. The key to allowing that, though, is you
need to create a translator, right, some technology which translates
our language into something that computer can understand. So that's
what a compiler is. Without the invention of the compiler,
(18:29):
there are no high end programming languages. After inventing the compiler,
Grace moved on to start creating the first computer languages.
That's when other computing companies started adopting a compiler system.
The problem was they started writing programs that were incompatible
on different hardwares. So she decided to go to the
(18:52):
Department Defense and suggests that they create a two day
conference with all the leaders in the industry and over
those two days design a universal business language, and that
universal business language would be able to run on any
type of hardware. That language was called COBAL, or Common
(19:14):
Business Oriented Language. It's a computer language for data processors
or in simpler terms, a computer language by humans for
humans that would tell computers what to do. I could
say subtracted come tax from pay instead of trying to
write that an octocode or using all kinds of symbols.
There was a radical break from all previous human technology
(19:36):
because she's suggesting that we can, through software, continue to
get the hardware to act the way we wanted to.
COBAL went on to become the most widely used computer
language of the time. COBAL starts becoming universally adopted in
the nineties sixties, and it really allows the computer industry
(19:56):
to enter its growth phase. So in the early sixties,
you have a young son of a department store owner
named Sam Walton who learns coball and realizes he can
start managing inventory better, which would eventually grow into a
Walmart empire. You have an intern working at a very
small investment bank in New York City called Morgan Stanley,
(20:20):
and he introduces Morgan Stanley to COBAL, and ten years
later he's now the CEO of Morgan Stanley. During the
first half of the sixties, Grace Hopper was probably the
largest proponent of getting COBAL universally adopted. She would ultimately
receive the nickname Grandma Cobal. It was a compliment. Interestingly enough,
(20:41):
she still has this desire to be a naval officer.
Her grandfather was an admiral, so I think that always
was in the back of her head. So she pretty
much convinces the Navy at a time where most of
us would retire, to let her re enlist as an
officer and let her focus on spreading computer technology through
(21:03):
the Navy in the Department of Defense. And so they
take her up on her offer, and she ends up
having a twenty year career in the military and rises
to the rank of admiral. Educating people about technology was
Grace's entire life. Before this, she'd had a different life.
She had already been a wife, she had already been
a professor. But this, this is the life she actually wanted.
(21:27):
Her personal life was, I think, so intertwined with her career.
She definitely had long term friends who were all connected
with the computer industry, so I think that two just
kind of melded together. By this point. Grace Hopper spent
most of her career figuring out how to make technology
(21:48):
available to real humans. People are scared of computers, just
as I can remember, there were people scared to death
of telephones, wouldn't go near him. We've always gone through
this with every change. In that way, she was the
predecessor of consumer tech titans like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs.
But she was humble about her achievements until the very end.
(22:12):
One thing is that people try to make me something extra.
They totally failed to realize that everything I've ever done
was not genius effect. It was all straightforward common sense
of the time. How can you get this done? She
was a master at motivating people, at winning them over,
at functioning in maybe hostile environments or male dominated environments.
(22:38):
It was her leadership as much as her scientific creativity,
which helped create some of the core technologies of the
Fourth Industrial Revolution. We're just getting started. We're just beginning
to meet what we will be doing in the future.
Big rewards go to the people who take the big asks.
(23:02):
Time for a quick break. When we get back, we'll
be in the studio with Pariza to Breeze, a director
of engineering at Google, where she oversees its Chrome web browser,
and a team of security investigators. Like Grace before, She's
been a groundbreaker, a coder and a bus. In her
work at Google, she honors Grace's legacy every day. She
(23:23):
also named her cat Grace Hopper Welcome back. According to
the data, only about of all tech jobs today are
held by women. Pariza to Breez, who will be joining
us in the studio today, is one of those women.
She's a rock star at Google, overseeing the Chrome browser
(23:45):
and helping to manage security for the billions of people
who were using it every single day. In Forbes magazine
included Pereza in their top thirty people under thirty to
watch in the technology industry, and she took over security
for Google Chrome. Her business card includes a title she
chose for herself. It reads Security Princess. I do think
(24:10):
it challenges probably what a stereotype of a princess is.
And I love giving it to people when I meet
them because I think it catches their eyes just like
what and makes actually an icebreaker moment of like, we
can do very serious work, but I don't think we
have to take ourselves seriously. Life is short. So you
have a cat named Grace Hopper. I named my cat
(24:31):
Grace just because Grace Hopper is one of these people
in history who's pretty amazing, And I also just like
the name. I have a colleague at Google who just
got a puppy and named it Hopper, also after Grace Hopper,
and so it's this weird new generation of pets who
I think are coming and being named after Grace Hopper,
(24:51):
which would I imagine be super amusing to Grace Hopper,
because I think she had a good sense of humor.
Tell me a little bit about how you got into
this field, how you've gotten a computer science and code
in the first place. It was very accidental. My parents
are their professionals and they work in the healthcare space,
and I think that my dad probably wanted me to
become a doctor, but I kind of didn't want to
(25:12):
become a doctor in part, just not do what he wanted.
I really liked math, and I'm from Illinois and our
university had a really good engineering program, so learned how
to do web development and build websites. And then one
of my personal websites actually got hacked. I was defaced
by some hackers, and that got me into security. So
(25:35):
I found a really good group of friends and a
club at my school about hacking and security, and at
some point realized I could get a job in that.
Did you face any challenges in the industry or were
there a lot of other women in the industry when
you started. Yes, I have definitely faced a lot of challenges.
You know, some of them, I would actually say are
(25:57):
probably rooted in self doubt and that I can't necessarily
a tribute to any one individual or any one circumstance.
But in college it became really apparent that once I
had taken on an engineering degree, the gender ratios were
very different than what I was used to in high school,
where it was pretty balanced. I actually remember, before getting
(26:17):
my first internship, and it was at Google, male colleague
who actually thought was a friend, had said I had
an easier job getting the internship as a woman, you know,
because people were looking to hit certain ratios, and you know,
in hindsight, I can probably say, well, it probably was
some insecurity on his side, But that definitely stung and
made me question whether I belonged or whether I was
(26:37):
getting an easier path, and that self doubt, I think
has been one of the biggest challenges, like do I
belong in this industry? Grace Hopper is such a cool
example of challenging that because I think if you know,
you were to say, like, what does an engineer look like?
What does a scientist or mathematician look like? It's not
a tiny woman who's outspoken, and so yeah, a lot
(26:57):
of it is do I belong? And I think that
summarizes a big fuel for insecurity. Yeah, and reading her
story and listening to her biographer talk, you wouldn't think, oh, yeah,
the the engineer behind the first programming language, behind the
first computer. It wasn't this tiny little woman who in
all of the pictures of those teams is kind of
(27:19):
in the background. Like you look at those pictures and
you think maybe she was the and it's terrible that
we think that's what we do. Maybe she was the assistant,
or maybe she was the secretary because that was the
time when women were secretaries. You don't think she was
number two on this project. And I've run into that too,
where um, you know, people will think I'm the assistant
(27:41):
or the you know, admin, or the PR person or
the marketing person or the like the logistics person for
even you know, when I'll attend a conference when then
I'm actually like the invited speaker. And so now I
at this point in my career. I think I have
a lot more confidence and can find the humor in it,
but it definitely picks away at your self confidence, and
I think that's why it's actually so important for us
(28:03):
to remember and share the stories of people like Grace Hopper,
but also kind of everyone who doesn't maybe fit that
stereotype mold you are an important person at Google. What
was it like climbing through the ranks of that company?
I mean, how hard was it to get where you
are today? It was a lot of hard work, for sure,
and I don't any way mean to to glamorize it,
(28:25):
but also don't want to be ungrateful. I think early
on I was lucky to have a number of allies,
most of which were men who would sponsor me for
opportunities that maybe I didn't know about in the first
place and would take bets on me. And so I
feel lucky and grateful for that. I had to ultimately
(28:46):
do the work and demonstrate that I could deliver. What
can we do to get more women in the room.
What do we need to be doing right now to
get more girls and young women involved in STEM and programming?
So many things? And I think this is a really
really complex problem. I am encouraged by being able to
expose kids to to coding way earlier, and that to
(29:10):
me means that people when they're in those early years
and fearless and don't worry about being bad at something,
actually can develop some early early coding skills and it
just doesn't end up being this thing where only guys
do it in college if they've been doing it since
early on. And then also again, I actually think that
busting some of the stereotypes of what an engineer should
(29:30):
be or what a technologist should be could help too,
because if you can't see it, you know you can't
be it. There's culture problems, their systemic problems that are
larger than just tech, for sure, that I think we
have to acknowledge and talk about and try to really challenge.
I try to focus on progress, and when I have
(29:50):
heard about Grace Hopper story and Ruth Pader Ginsburg story
and some of the other women leaders who really really
challenged gender norms, I do try to be grateful for
how things are definitely not perfect today but have improved.
What are some of the cultural challenges in tech that
women still face. We use the term microaggression in some
ways where anyone incident of whether you know, you're the
(30:14):
only woman in a room and you're constantly being talked over,
or you're the only other woman in a room and
an idea that you shared a week earlier is now
being claimed by somebody else. These things end up building up,
and we call them microaggressions because ultimately it's what I
think people leave tech over. It's sort of like death
by a thousand cuts. I do think that tackling some
(30:36):
of the diversity challenges in tech is very much going
to be successful or not based on the participation of
people with privilege, and in a big part that is men,
and so they're both like in a power to make
change as well as in a position to where in
some cases they're creating the problems. As a woman, I
still have probably been born during the best period of history,
(30:59):
and and I hope that we can just kind of
continue to improve it so the next generation has a
little bit easier, although it's going to take some time
to fully address all the challenges for women in computing.
We're very grateful to our guests. Kurt Fyer, adviser to
Entrepreneurs and Disruptive Technologies at University of California, Berkeley and
(31:21):
Parissa Tabreez, Security Princess at Google. Grace Hopper is voiced
by Kristin Reeves. The male voices in this episode, We're
All Done by Jacob Bonachel Fierce is hosted and written
by Joe Piazza, produced and directed by me Anna Stump.
Our executive producers are Joe Piazza, Nikki Etre, Anna Stump,
and from Tribeca Studios, Lea Sarbib. This episode was edited
by Jacopo Penzo and Aaron Kaufman and soundscaped by Anna Stump,
(31:44):
Yacopo Penzo and Aaron Kaufman. Our associate producer is Emily Maronoff.
Fact checking by Austin Thompson researched by Lizzie Jacobs. The
Fierce theme is by Hamilton Lighthouser and Anna Stump. Additional
music for this episode by Aaron Kaufman. Are very sincere.
Thanks to Mangesh had ticket Or for making this series
possible and to Nikki Etre are co executive producer. Thank
you so much for the daily mountains you moved to
(32:06):
make this show happen. Sources for this episode Grace Hopper
and the Invention of the Information Age by Kurt Buyer.
An oral history of Captain Grace Hopper by the Computer
History Museum. Interview conducted by Angeline Pantage Naval Data Automation
Command in Maryland in December of a sixty minutes segment
entitled The Captain Is a Lady from March six. Thank
(32:29):
you so much for listening. For more podcasts from my
Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Um. Humans are allergic to change. They love to say
We've always done it this way. I try to fight that.
That's why I have a clock on my wall that
runs counter clockwise. A clock that runs counterclockwise sounds like
(00:24):
something you might read in a biography of Steve Jobs
or Mark Zuckerberg, maybe Bill Gates. It is the quote
of a tech innovator, Grace Hopper, the woman who catapulted
the world into the Fourth Industrial Revolution, the age of technology.
The Fourth Industrial Revolution is where we create a machine
which can actually mimic the brain. That's Dr Kirk Byer,
(00:47):
an adviser to entrepreneurs and disruptive Technologies at University of California, Berkeley.
And each of the previous industrial revolutions were started by
a group of individual inventors, say a Thomas Edison or
a Tesla or a what Grace Hopper was that person
for the Fourth Industrial Revolution? Yet when I would talk
(01:08):
to people here in Silicon Valley, I was in shocked
that most people didn't even know who she was. It
was Grace Hopper who fundamentally changed the way early computers worked,
so much so that almost everything we do today wouldn't
be possible without her from I Heart Radio and Tribeca Studios.
(01:34):
This is fierce I can't type Women. We're going to
do Presenting Problems, a podcast about the incredible women who
never made it in your history books and the modern
women carrying on their legacies today. Us to the ladies,
the fair and the week I can't find Women worker,
don't mind routine repetitive work. Will you make a copy
(01:55):
of this naturally? Each week we're bringing you the story
of a groundbreaking woman from the past who made huge
contributions to the present, but whose name still isn't on
the tips of our tongues for whatever reason. Maybe it's
because men wrote most of history. At the end of
each episode, I'll be joined by a woman living today
(02:16):
who's standing on the shoulders of this historical figure, whether
she knows it or not. Grace Hopper was born in
New York City on December the eldest of three children
to a fairly progressive family, with parents who saw the
(02:36):
education of girls as equal to the education of boys.
Her father was an insurance broker. Her mother had a
passion for mathematics, which might have taken her far had
barriers for women at the time not been so high.
As a kid, Grace liked to take a part household
appliances to learn how they worked. She graduated Phi Beta
Kappa from Vassar College in nine with a BA in
(02:57):
mathematics and physics, but her education didn't in there. She
went on to get a master's and a PhD in
mathematics from Yale. In prominent families in New York cities
in the nineteen twenties, it was almost expected that the
women would go to college and get educated. That's Dr
Buyer again. He wrote a book on the first thirty
years of the computer age entitled it Grace Hopper and
(03:20):
the Invention of the Information Age. One thing that I
think struck me was the fact that women's progress is
not linear. It actually goes up and down. So we
had during this period women getting not only undergrad degrees,
but graduate degrees at an unprecedented rate, and that rate
wasn't matched until Grace got married soon after graduation to
(03:44):
Vincent Foster Hopper, a scholar who would soon join the
English faculty at n y U. After that, she was
hired into the mathematics faculty at Fasser. It wasn't her
first choice of career. I wanted to be an engineer.
That's an actress reading Grace's words. You also heard her
at the start of the episode. The sources for these
quotes are her biographer Kirt Buyer, and an interview conducted
(04:04):
by Angeline Pantaj for the Computer History Museum. My grandfather
had been a civil engineer, and he was a senior
civil engineer in the city of New York. He used
to take me with him when he went out surveying,
and you let me hold the red and white pole.
He also let me look through his gadget, and I
wanted to be an engineer. My dad always made things.
(04:26):
I've always been fascinated with how things work and making
things work. But there was no place at all for
women in engineering when I graduated in the thirties, when
she started working, we saw one of these cycles again
where women didn't have as many opportunities, and that in
part was created by the Great Depression, So we don't
(04:49):
really have an explosion of opportunity for women again until
the war years, until the nineteen forties. So academia it was,
and Grace made the most of it. She was insatiably
curious and took classes and everything from zoology to architecture
to astronomy. She brought all of that newfound knowledge into
her mathematics classroom, and that made her a wildly popular
(05:11):
instructor who actually made math interesting. The establishment, of course,
didn't love Grace's approach. They disapproved practically everything I did
because I wasn't doing the right things. I was going
off into things which were not mathematics. One former student
remembered it differently, saying simply that Grace was an inspiration.
(05:43):
Everything about the world changed in ninety one. Are now
covers the globe. December the seventh was the day of infamy.
Japan turns the one specific ocean into a sea of blood.
Oh say, war blackens the sky in the East. In
the wake of Pearl Harbor and America's entrance into World
War Two, Grace was eager to join the war effort.
(06:05):
I think a lot of people after Pearl Harbor were
interested in joining the war effort. Her husband at the time,
Vince Foster, he did join the war effort. I wanted
very badly to get into the navy, so I finally
gave vass an ultimatum. If they wouldn't release me, I
would stay out of work for six months because I
(06:26):
was going into the Navy period. Now in her mid thirties,
Grace was considered too old for service, but she used
her mathematics degree to get an exception, and the military
was in desperate need of mathematicians. They led a report
to Midshipman school in December of She absolutely loved it.
Midshipman camp is the officers version of boot camp in
(06:50):
the Navy, and usually this is a very difficult time
for most young people. I found quotes from her where
she said it was one of the most relaxing times
of life because she didn't have all the responsibilities of
family and teaching, advass or on her shoulders. Around this time,
(07:11):
her marriage began to suffer, or maybe it had been
suffering for a long time and this was a way out.
I never was able to get to the root of it,
but I suspect that the fact that they went their
separate ways trying to serve the country after Pearl Harbor
was somewhat connected in terms of maybe their marriage wasn't
(07:33):
as solid as it could have been. The military quickly
made her a part of a team working on the
Bureau of Ordnance Computation project at Harvard University. She was
working on the Mark one, a calculating machine, or rather
a computer, the first large scale automatic digital computer in
(07:55):
the United States. Grace worked on the very first computer.
It was a top secret a program at Harvard during
World War Two. Those first computers were built like any
other human technology up to that point. They were built
to just do one thing. And that sounds so strange
to us now, but that's how technology was always created.
(08:16):
You invented a typewriter and all it did was typewrite
right then to hammer and use it to hammer nails.
Meaning the Mark one and other early computers were actually
physically built to solve one kind of problem, say a
physics or engineering problem to unreeldy for humans to calculate.
There was no such thing as software. If you wanted
the computer to solve a different kind of problem, you
(08:37):
essentially had to reconfigure the machine every single time. It
was Grace Hopper who invented away around that. I started
to work on the Mark one second of July. There
was no such thing as a programmer at that point.
We had a code book for the machine and that
was all and listed the codes what they did, and
we had to work out all the beginning of programming
(08:58):
and writing programs and all the rest. But Grace was
working under a man named Howard Aiken at the time,
and Aiken made no secret of the fact that he
was annoyed the Navy had to signed him a woman.
He was vocal about it with the other men on
the staff. She was assigned as a number two person
at the project. Aiken at first was very upset about this.
(09:18):
He didn't expect that a woman would be named number two,
but Grace's mathematical skill set was in high demand at
that wartime moment, and she was deemed the best available
person for the job. If you're going to play by
the rules of the military. She's the second highest ranking
person at the facility, so that means that she's second
in charge. He quickly came to realize how amazing she
(09:40):
was at actually getting this machine to function, because at
that point it was still a prototype. When I walked
in there, Aikin had not wanted a woman officer, and
I had said he was going to want a woman officer.
Despite the outward hostility, Grace was in her element in
the lab. She went about learning everything there was to
(10:03):
learn about the machine. Spent many sleepless nights going over
blueprints circuit diagrams. The groundbreaking realization she had was that
rather than starting from scratch with every new problem the
war effort presented, she could create these building blocks of
code that could be stored in the library. This was
literally a broom closet where she and her team hung
(10:23):
the paper tape that was used to code the machine.
The fifty ft five time machine. Coders today used the
same technique, borrowing blocks of code, often available for free
on the internet, rather than reinventing every component of the
wheel every single time. Once they created, say the co
Sign paper tape code, they could save that in a library,
(10:46):
and then if they were asked a different type of
problem to solve that needed, say a cosign, they could
just add in that part of the co Sign code
with other code that they were creating to get the
machine to then solve new equations. Commander Howard Hin came
up to my desk one day and he said, you're
(11:06):
going to write a book. I said, I can't write
a book, and he said, you're in the Navy. Now.
That settled that end. I learned to write a book.
Grace authored a five plus page manual of the Mark
one's operations. It would end up becoming one of the
formative documents about how early computers worked. She was great
(11:26):
at not only theorizing how to do it, but then
helping her team and training her team to actually make
it a reality. I wrote about five pages a day,
which I had to read it aco at the end
of the day. If you rejected them, I had to
start them over again. It was a programming manual, even
though the word programmer didn't exist back then. I was
(11:49):
a mathematical officer. We ran the computer. We did everything.
We were coders. I wrote programs for both Mark one
and Mark two. This is the point where Upper starts
creating the initial fundamentals of programming. While Grace Hopper can't
be credited with the invention of the computer itself the hardware,
(12:11):
she can be credited with the leap of imagination it
took to make the computer into something vastly more useful
than it was originally intended to be. So it was
Hopper that said, well, if we can get the computer
to reconfigure itself, then we can have it solve lots
of different problems. It was no small task. The US
(12:33):
government wanted a calculating machine that could solve all different
kinds of engineering problems for warships and aircraft, even calculate
rocket trajectories. The whole drive was just on one thing.
Just when the war there was one special phone which
was directly connected to the Bureau of Ordnance in Washington. Well,
we used to shake every time that darn thing ran.
(12:55):
The issue at that time is World War two starts
becoming a war of scientific and mathematical calculations. For instance,
Hopper and her team solved the implosion problem for the
nuclear bomb that probably could not have possibly been solved
using the old techniques. Howard Achan was proven wrong about Grace,
(13:20):
very wrong. He would later concede Grace was a good man.
Grace Hopper may have sold Achan on the fact that
she was just as skilled as any man. But Harvard
was another story. While Aken continued to live the charmed
life of a tenure tract professor at the university, Grace
(13:42):
Hopper was a mere faculty research fellow with a three
year contract. They didn't promote women at Harvard at that point,
so at the end of three years, my time was up.
She's now at the cutting edge of this new technology.
We of course know how important that technology would become.
Yet she wasn't asked to be a professor at Harvard
(14:03):
because they didn't have women professors at Harvard, where Howard
Aikin was given a full professorship at Harvard, she was
asked to leave the Navy because they shut down the
waves program. So she finds herself in without a professorship,
without a job, an expert at this new cutting edge field,
(14:29):
but pretty much the society wasn't allowing her to continue.
Being in the Navy had always been one of Grace's
most treasured dreams, to make it in into a position
of high command, no less, and then because of her gender,
to be asked to leave that must have been devastating.
(14:51):
I think that's probably the most tragic part of her story.
This is actually a period where she she struggles with
alcoholism as well. For as outspoken as she was, Grace
was an incredibly private person, and that means we don't
know much about her personal struggles. What we do know
is that her drinking and depression escalated while working under
(15:13):
the intense wartime pressure. It became an actual problem when
her time at Harvard came to an end. In November
of nine, Grace was arrested at three am for drunk
and disorderly conduct. She was placed in the hospital custody
for treatment. They eventually released her to her friend, Edmund Berkeley.
According to Buyer, Berkeley was desperate the help her. He
(15:36):
wrote Grace an impassioned intervention letter. Berkeley wrote that her
alcoholic habit had quote warped most of the intellectual processes
that you would ordinarily use to attack your alcoholism. He
appealed to Grace's intellect and her ego. He told her
her brain was too important to waste. Little is known
(15:57):
about Grace's road to recovery, but we do no She
relied on the support of Berkeley and her community in
order to overcome our addiction. We'll be back with more
of Grace's story after a quick break. Grace did a
(16:19):
lot of interviewing after Harvard and finally landed a position
with E M c C, a startup in Philadelphia that
was eventually acquired by the Remington Rand Corporation. She became
part of the team that developed the UNIVAC one computer,
the first known large scale electronic computer to go to market.
Unlike our team at Harvard, Grace's team at e m
c C was mostly women. That computer startup company, I
(16:42):
think is also the saving Grace for her own career
and her own sanity in some respects as well. See
after the War, computer science and programming jobs in the
private sector often became viewed as women's work. It's a
concept we do very well to remember today. Jack supposed
that now with you know the images I grew up
(17:04):
in the nineteen eighties of kind of the male geek
who is the computer programmer. It's good to remember that
during the nineteen fifties software and program was actually dominated
by Grace and her team of women. It was while
she was at a MCC that Grace began to think
(17:24):
of something fairly revolutionary. She began to think that computer
languages could be more intuitive, could even be based on
the English language. We had proposed that originally, and it
sure got Clawbard. So by this point Hopper had demonstrated
this notion of coding. She became the head of automatic
(17:44):
programming for UNIVAC. Their early tenants of software start being
formed at Ecronomatically Corporation by Hopper, and then of course
that seminal moment is when she invents the compiler. At
the time, computer languages were written using a mixture of
wildly confusing symbols and binary code. There was another bunch
(18:06):
of people who were in data processing who hated symbols
and wanted words, So why not give them a word
oriented language. The key to allowing that, though, is you
need to create a translator, right, some technology which translates
our language into something that computer can understand. So that's
what a compiler is. Without the invention of the compiler,
(18:29):
there are no high end programming languages. After inventing the compiler,
Grace moved on to start creating the first computer languages.
That's when other computing companies started adopting a compiler system.
The problem was they started writing programs that were incompatible
on different hardwares. So she decided to go to the
(18:52):
Department Defense and suggests that they create a two day
conference with all the leaders in the industry and over
those two days design a universal business language, and that
universal business language would be able to run on any
type of hardware. That language was called COBAL, or Common
(19:14):
Business Oriented Language. It's a computer language for data processors
or in simpler terms, a computer language by humans for
humans that would tell computers what to do. I could
say subtracted come tax from pay instead of trying to
write that an octocode or using all kinds of symbols.
There was a radical break from all previous human technology
(19:36):
because she's suggesting that we can, through software, continue to
get the hardware to act the way we wanted to.
COBAL went on to become the most widely used computer
language of the time. COBAL starts becoming universally adopted in
the nineties sixties, and it really allows the computer industry
(19:56):
to enter its growth phase. So in the early sixties,
you have a young son of a department store owner
named Sam Walton who learns coball and realizes he can
start managing inventory better, which would eventually grow into a
Walmart empire. You have an intern working at a very
small investment bank in New York City called Morgan Stanley,
(20:20):
and he introduces Morgan Stanley to COBAL, and ten years
later he's now the CEO of Morgan Stanley. During the
first half of the sixties, Grace Hopper was probably the
largest proponent of getting COBAL universally adopted. She would ultimately
receive the nickname Grandma Cobal. It was a compliment. Interestingly enough,
(20:41):
she still has this desire to be a naval officer.
Her grandfather was an admiral, so I think that always
was in the back of her head. So she pretty
much convinces the Navy at a time where most of
us would retire, to let her re enlist as an
officer and let her focus on spreading computer technology through
(21:03):
the Navy in the Department of Defense. And so they
take her up on her offer, and she ends up
having a twenty year career in the military and rises
to the rank of admiral. Educating people about technology was
Grace's entire life. Before this, she'd had a different life.
She had already been a wife, she had already been
a professor. But this, this is the life she actually wanted.
(21:27):
Her personal life was, I think, so intertwined with her career.
She definitely had long term friends who were all connected
with the computer industry, so I think that two just
kind of melded together. By this point. Grace Hopper spent
most of her career figuring out how to make technology
(21:48):
available to real humans. People are scared of computers, just
as I can remember, there were people scared to death
of telephones, wouldn't go near him. We've always gone through
this with every change. In that way, she was the
predecessor of consumer tech titans like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs.
But she was humble about her achievements until the very end.
(22:12):
One thing is that people try to make me something extra.
They totally failed to realize that everything I've ever done
was not genius effect. It was all straightforward common sense
of the time. How can you get this done? She
was a master at motivating people, at winning them over,
at functioning in maybe hostile environments or male dominated environments.
(22:38):
It was her leadership as much as her scientific creativity,
which helped create some of the core technologies of the
Fourth Industrial Revolution. We're just getting started. We're just beginning
to meet what we will be doing in the future.
Big rewards go to the people who take the big asks.
(23:02):
Time for a quick break. When we get back, we'll
be in the studio with Pariza to Breeze, a director
of engineering at Google, where she oversees its Chrome web browser,
and a team of security investigators. Like Grace before, She's
been a groundbreaker, a coder and a bus. In her
work at Google, she honors Grace's legacy every day. She
(23:23):
also named her cat Grace Hopper Welcome back. According to
the data, only about of all tech jobs today are
held by women. Pariza to Breez, who will be joining
us in the studio today, is one of those women.
She's a rock star at Google, overseeing the Chrome browser
(23:45):
and helping to manage security for the billions of people
who were using it every single day. In Forbes magazine
included Pereza in their top thirty people under thirty to
watch in the technology industry, and she took over security
for Google Chrome. Her business card includes a title she
chose for herself. It reads Security Princess. I do think
(24:10):
it challenges probably what a stereotype of a princess is.
And I love giving it to people when I meet
them because I think it catches their eyes just like
what and makes actually an icebreaker moment of like, we
can do very serious work, but I don't think we
have to take ourselves seriously. Life is short. So you
have a cat named Grace Hopper. I named my cat
(24:31):
Grace just because Grace Hopper is one of these people
in history who's pretty amazing, And I also just like
the name. I have a colleague at Google who just
got a puppy and named it Hopper, also after Grace Hopper,
and so it's this weird new generation of pets who
I think are coming and being named after Grace Hopper,
(24:51):
which would I imagine be super amusing to Grace Hopper,
because I think she had a good sense of humor.
Tell me a little bit about how you got into
this field, how you've gotten a computer science and code
in the first place. It was very accidental. My parents
are their professionals and they work in the healthcare space,
and I think that my dad probably wanted me to
become a doctor, but I kind of didn't want to
(25:12):
become a doctor in part, just not do what he wanted.
I really liked math, and I'm from Illinois and our
university had a really good engineering program, so learned how
to do web development and build websites. And then one
of my personal websites actually got hacked. I was defaced
by some hackers, and that got me into security. So
(25:35):
I found a really good group of friends and a
club at my school about hacking and security, and at
some point realized I could get a job in that.
Did you face any challenges in the industry or were
there a lot of other women in the industry when
you started. Yes, I have definitely faced a lot of challenges.
You know, some of them, I would actually say are
(25:57):
probably rooted in self doubt and that I can't necessarily
a tribute to any one individual or any one circumstance.
But in college it became really apparent that once I
had taken on an engineering degree, the gender ratios were
very different than what I was used to in high school,
where it was pretty balanced. I actually remember, before getting
(26:17):
my first internship, and it was at Google, male colleague
who actually thought was a friend, had said I had
an easier job getting the internship as a woman, you know,
because people were looking to hit certain ratios, and you know,
in hindsight, I can probably say, well, it probably was
some insecurity on his side, But that definitely stung and
made me question whether I belonged or whether I was
(26:37):
getting an easier path, and that self doubt, I think
has been one of the biggest challenges, like do I
belong in this industry? Grace Hopper is such a cool
example of challenging that because I think if you know,
you were to say, like, what does an engineer look like?
What does a scientist or mathematician look like? It's not
a tiny woman who's outspoken, and so yeah, a lot
(26:57):
of it is do I belong? And I think that
summarizes a big fuel for insecurity. Yeah, and reading her
story and listening to her biographer talk, you wouldn't think, oh, yeah,
the the engineer behind the first programming language, behind the
first computer. It wasn't this tiny little woman who in
all of the pictures of those teams is kind of
(27:19):
in the background. Like you look at those pictures and
you think maybe she was the and it's terrible that
we think that's what we do. Maybe she was the assistant,
or maybe she was the secretary because that was the
time when women were secretaries. You don't think she was
number two on this project. And I've run into that too,
where um, you know, people will think I'm the assistant
(27:41):
or the you know, admin, or the PR person or
the marketing person or the like the logistics person for
even you know, when I'll attend a conference when then
I'm actually like the invited speaker. And so now I
at this point in my career. I think I have
a lot more confidence and can find the humor in it,
but it definitely picks away at your self confidence, and
I think that's why it's actually so important for us
(28:03):
to remember and share the stories of people like Grace Hopper,
but also kind of everyone who doesn't maybe fit that
stereotype mold you are an important person at Google. What
was it like climbing through the ranks of that company?
I mean, how hard was it to get where you
are today? It was a lot of hard work, for sure,
and I don't any way mean to to glamorize it,
(28:25):
but also don't want to be ungrateful. I think early
on I was lucky to have a number of allies,
most of which were men who would sponsor me for
opportunities that maybe I didn't know about in the first
place and would take bets on me. And so I
feel lucky and grateful for that. I had to ultimately
(28:46):
do the work and demonstrate that I could deliver. What
can we do to get more women in the room.
What do we need to be doing right now to
get more girls and young women involved in STEM and programming?
So many things? And I think this is a really
really complex problem. I am encouraged by being able to
expose kids to to coding way earlier, and that to
(29:10):
me means that people when they're in those early years
and fearless and don't worry about being bad at something,
actually can develop some early early coding skills and it
just doesn't end up being this thing where only guys
do it in college if they've been doing it since
early on. And then also again, I actually think that
busting some of the stereotypes of what an engineer should
(29:30):
be or what a technologist should be could help too,
because if you can't see it, you know you can't
be it. There's culture problems, their systemic problems that are
larger than just tech, for sure, that I think we
have to acknowledge and talk about and try to really challenge.
I try to focus on progress, and when I have
(29:50):
heard about Grace Hopper story and Ruth Pader Ginsburg story
and some of the other women leaders who really really
challenged gender norms, I do try to be grateful for
how things are definitely not perfect today but have improved.
What are some of the cultural challenges in tech that
women still face. We use the term microaggression in some
ways where anyone incident of whether you know, you're the
(30:14):
only woman in a room and you're constantly being talked over,
or you're the only other woman in a room and
an idea that you shared a week earlier is now
being claimed by somebody else. These things end up building up,
and we call them microaggressions because ultimately it's what I
think people leave tech over. It's sort of like death
by a thousand cuts. I do think that tackling some
(30:36):
of the diversity challenges in tech is very much going
to be successful or not based on the participation of
people with privilege, and in a big part that is men,
and so they're both like in a power to make
change as well as in a position to where in
some cases they're creating the problems. As a woman, I
still have probably been born during the best period of history,
(30:59):
and and I hope that we can just kind of
continue to improve it so the next generation has a
little bit easier, although it's going to take some time
to fully address all the challenges for women in computing.
We're very grateful to our guests. Kurt Fyer, adviser to
Entrepreneurs and Disruptive Technologies at University of California, Berkeley and
(31:21):
Parissa Tabreez, Security Princess at Google. Grace Hopper is voiced
by Kristin Reeves. The male voices in this episode, We're
All Done by Jacob Bonachel Fierce is hosted and written
by Joe Piazza, produced and directed by me Anna Stump.
Our executive producers are Joe Piazza, Nikki Etre, Anna Stump,
and from Tribeca Studios, Lea Sarbib. This episode was edited
by Jacopo Penzo and Aaron Kaufman and soundscaped by Anna Stump,
(31:44):
Yacopo Penzo and Aaron Kaufman. Our associate producer is Emily Maronoff.
Fact checking by Austin Thompson researched by Lizzie Jacobs. The
Fierce theme is by Hamilton Lighthouser and Anna Stump. Additional
music for this episode by Aaron Kaufman. Are very sincere.
Thanks to Mangesh had ticket Or for making this series
possible and to Nikki Etre are co executive producer. Thank
you so much for the daily mountains you moved to
(32:06):
make this show happen. Sources for this episode Grace Hopper
and the Invention of the Information Age by Kurt Buyer.
An oral history of Captain Grace Hopper by the Computer
History Museum. Interview conducted by Angeline Pantage Naval Data Automation
Command in Maryland in December of a sixty minutes segment
entitled The Captain Is a Lady from March six. Thank
(32:29):
you so much for listening. For more podcasts from my
Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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