July 29, 2025 • 32 mins
George is joined by life coach and content creator Obio Jones. Obio talks to George about how to set boundaries with family, the pressure of visibility, and together they get into the financial and logistical reality of being a Black Queer content creator today.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I think a lot of people can identify the moment
in which their wings got clipped and who clipped them.
The tough part is removing the fear of asking people
out of your life.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
A lot of what is in the way it is family.
You don't see the real.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
That's Obio Jones, a bold creator, life coach and advocate.
He's using humor, heart and hard truth to carbout space
for black red voices. Today you'll hear Obio speak candidly
about identity, healing and why sometimes the most radical thing
you can do is to show up as your full self.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
When you're queer and visible, everything is groundbreaking, even when
you don't want it to be. People post their partner.
That's not like as revolution, It's just it is what
it is. But when you're gay, it's like that's a
big deal.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Singing in the heavy handed what the world take a
sup of grandee and coaching guy, you know what the
plan is?
Speaker 4 (00:58):
Orca a Latin you know one does seem to stand.
My name is George M. Johnson.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
I am the New York Times best selling author of
the book All Boys Aren't Blue, which is the number
one most challenged book in the United States.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
This is Fighting Words.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
A show where we take you to the front lines
of the culture wars with the people who are using
their words to make change and who refuse to be silenced.
Today's guest Obio Jones. I'm here today with a good friend.
You've probably seen his face all over the internet. He
has a face that tends to go viral pretty often.
(01:35):
Obio Jones, how are you today?
Speaker 2 (01:37):
I'm good.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
I'm better that I'm talking to you, George.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
What's going down? Me?
Speaker 3 (01:42):
And have quite interesting conversations about life. We do very
interested in public. Sometimes our public personas precede us, and
people make a lot of assumptions about who we are,
what our lived experiences are, and so we just always
like to start off by letting you introduce yourself.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
So who is Obio Jones?
Speaker 1 (02:00):
I would define me as fun and I know that
sounds like frivolous, but I think in a world where
fun requires freedom, I think me maintaining my fund is
really important to me. I'm an active life coach. I
create concept for TikTok, YouTube and Instagram centered around lifestyle,
beauty and fashion, but also an advocacy layer to it.
Just because I am queer and black and in the space,
(02:22):
and I recognize the space that I occupy, and I'm
now a fiance, So that's I don't think I'm sun about,
so we'll take that.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
I think sometimes the term life coach can have a
negative connotation in people's minds. What's the difference between a
life coach and a therapist or a psychologist? What is
actually like life coaching?
Speaker 1 (02:41):
I think the primary difference between life coaching and therapy
is goals, right, Like I think like therapy is centered
around like this overarching maintenance of your past and present
experiences to maintain a good mental wellness. But coaching is
more like, what do you want to accomplish and what's
in the way, and let's talk about the things that
are in the way, let's remove them, let's get you
to this goal. That's the unique difference where I think
(03:03):
if your therapist is telling you what to do, they're
probably not a good therapist. You know, your therapist walks
you through your own experiences to navigate when you were experiencing,
And I think a coach is more like, no, do this,
do that, do this, do that.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
It's like like the coach of a basketball team, Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Exactly right now.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Life coach is like a really good teammate who cares
about your emotions. It wants you to feel really good,
and that kind of thing where a coach is like, hey,
I don't care getting this get in.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
The field, let's get above it.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
And that's what are some common issues that you see
come up again and again and like what type of
clients do you do coaching for?
Speaker 1 (03:37):
My clients are also different. I have a fifty two
year old white woman all the way down to like
twenty one year old queer men as vast but what
I see often is wrestling with that childhood. Their childhood
comes up and interferes with their ability to go after
their dreams.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
They often identify with that right, but I think a lot.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Of people can identify the moment in which their wings
got clipped and who clipped them.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Wow. The tough part is.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Removing the the fear of like exing people out of
your life.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
A lot of what is in the way. It's family.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
A lot of times you gotta tell so and so
to get up out of here, you know, and it
is what it is. I'm seeing a constant someone told me,
and that someone's usually a family member that I couldn't,
that I could, that I shouldn't, that I don't, that
I can't, that I won't, and an interference that there goes.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
Wow, and how do you walk someone through that? Sometimes
family can be great, and then there can be times
where it's like very stressful, lots of responsibilities sometimes that
are bestowed upon us, when people are like, oh, you
just gotta cut people off, and it's like it's not
that easy sometimes, you know, family cousins are like your
first friends, you know, and then you get older and
personalities change and things get different.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
How do you if you have to like stop.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
Talking to a family member, Like, what is the process
of even going through that?
Speaker 1 (04:55):
I like to start with best case scenarios and welcome back.
I think what a lot of people do is urge
their reality with their dreams, which can sometimes make the
dream impossible.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Right. It's like, if you're trying to envision a world.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
That you like, but you have to put your mom
in or you have to put your cousin who's negative
in it, you can't really get to the fullness of
your dreams if.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
You best case scenario at first.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
I want a world that's happy, full of autonomy, that
I can wake up slow and go to bed easy
and all of these things. You then can be a
little more honest about what that can't even happen with
some and so that can't even happen in this city
or you know whatever. As a good practice for me
is best case scenario at first, and then walk it
back to your reality, and you'll find that those people
will kind of ex themselves up.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
We're now officially out of one of the hardest pride
moms had to existing. We already know espes'sally, when it
comes to black LGBTQ folks, family sometimes doesn't even exist
for sure. How do you help people to advocate better
for themselves? Specifically when it comes to like chosen family.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
A lot of people, especially people who are navigating being
uncomfortably queer or closet or whatever name you want to
call it. I think you got to let go of
the shame. A lot of people are afraid to build family,
not relatives, but family.
Speaker 4 (06:18):
Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
They are because they're afraid of the judgment they once
added to them.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
I said those people were weird or wrong or what
have you.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
And now I'm also like vying for their friendship and
so I forgive myself and kind of do my own
little journey or whatever. You're not going to allow yourself
to be open to the community. That is not like
a privilege, it's a necessity. It's going to be very
difficult for you to really reach the fullness of whatever you.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Want to become by yourself.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
I mean, I don't know, we're gonna talk about your book,
like all boys aren't blue.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Like a lot of people just didn't grow up with that,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Yeah, you felt so isolated and then you actually get
but behind the smoke and mirror, like, oh wait a minute,
I'm a lot more alike to the community that I
once was afraid of that I shamed at whatever, And
now I can open myself to community. But again for
myself personally, I'll be quiet after this. Yes, my journey
to my freedom was more about acknowledging that I am gay,
(07:08):
acknowledging that I like men. But a lot of it
was forgiving all the judgment that I added to a
community to keep myself safe from it. I have to
make them wrong so I don't slip up and fall
into that community right because they ain't wrong, then I
might be one of them and I can't be one
of them. And that was the toughest part for me.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
And now with that one eighty, you have become very visible.
Now you're a fiance Damel Simon, who is also a
very public figure and an actor on a hit sitcom.
How has that then to navigate the desire to want
to showcase black love with the attacks that come at
(07:47):
you being too visible with it.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
It's so convoluted it becomes difficult because what sometimes we
do within marginalized groups is we prescribe I call them uniforms, right,
when in the great community, we've kind of given in
a uniform to queerness, a uniform to like black success,
to all of these things. When you kind of separate
yourself from that, it's easy to like judgment. For me,
it was like, I'm a maschline body who's also with
(08:10):
another maschlum body. Typical, Right, I'm a newly out person
who's with a newly out person, typical. All these typical
things that were very like girl, you know, which I
understand wholeheartedly.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
But the alternative is what right?
Speaker 1 (08:22):
And then there's a people who are like, Okay, well,
he has a little bit of success thank god he
chose a black person, so you get a little bit
of grace.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
You know.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Yeah, the assumption is that we're going to end up
with people who are non black exactly.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
I think when you're queer and visible, everything is groundbreaking,
even when you don't want it to be. People post
their partner. That's not like that's revolution, it's just it
is what it is. But when you're gay, it's like
that's a big deal. You don't really get the privilege
of just casually posting your dude going to get a coffee.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Fiance.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
He really wasn't aware, and I know it sounds like
a cop out, but he hadn't experience being visibly queer
for a very long time online, So you're already new
to this space, and you're like, wait, what did I
do wrong? Kind of when you're met with people who
are like, oh, this is like phony or this is whatever,
you're like, wait.
Speaker 4 (09:06):
I'm cutting off for the cameras, yeah, and.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
I'm like, hey boy, just you know, focus on the positor.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
It's not easy to be a public figure, but it's
even harder to be a black public figure than even
harder to be a black queer public figure. Like every
time you add a layer of identity to who you
are as a public figure, it just adds a different
type of visceral reaction from a different part of community.
We get judgment sometimes in our own community, and sometimes,
(09:33):
I mean, critique makes us grow. So I'm always fine
with any criticisms that come up for me and what
I do and all of those things. But it's like,
sometimes I have to remind people, like, I'm also fighting
the United States government. Can y'all give me like ten
minutes and I'll address your concerns with this thing. How
have you dealt with navigating which things you should address
and which things you're just like, I'm not addressing this.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
I have been fortunate enough to have access to people
like you, people like Darnell Moore. The list goes on
right because of that, I see everybody's lane. When you
don't you expect the few gay people that you know
to speak to every single detail of every single thing.
And it's like, I know what George does, and I
can't do what George does. I know what Darnelle does,
I know what these people do. Because I think in
the beginning I was kind of like that because people
(10:17):
were asking me every question under the sun. I'm like, okay,
well let me answer it, let me speak to this,
speak to that. And I'm like, I think we will
be more informous to direct you to somebody who has
a more research perspective, that person who's just giving some
arbitrary opinion because they just have a mouth. When to
advocate though, right, Like, I don't have to be a
part of an experience.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
To advocate for it. I did it.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
They are recent where I put Tampon's and Mitchel products
in the men's bathroom and people you know, of course
losing their minds because minds are easy to lose when
they're simple. I'll use this an opportunity to educate through
their transmit have periods and some of them who have
not undergone his rectomies, And I think I don't have
to be part of that. So there is a slippery
slope of it. But I think I'm also not gonna
like bombard a space in which someone else is already occupied.
(10:56):
There is hope Jazelle can talk to you about certains
that I can I talk to you about. And I
think for me it's a bit about like I would
be goofy to get online and say, hey, guys, I
just forwarded a video that Hoped Zelle did to thirteen people.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
I think that's kind of how I navigate.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Hmm, this is not mine, this is Hopes, this is George's,
this is his, this is theirs, and this is mine though,
and let's do it.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
You know, when we come back, Obio gets real about
navigating family boundaries, building chosen family and unexpected healing that
comes from finally choosing yourself. And now back to my
(11:51):
conversation with Obio Jones, So what goes into you being
a content creator? I want people to understand like the
business side of content creating because I think people see
others do it and they're like, oh, I could do
that too, and it's like you should hear it from
someone that's doing it to tell you like, that's a job.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
The tough part about where I exist online, especially as
relates to the career of online, is that I, like
a lot of people, my agent older wandered into the
career where I think now gen Z and below are
having strategy to do this career, which is a little
bit different. I started a series talking about queerness and
I was just talking. I thought that I joanted to
(12:31):
build a community. I had my corporate job, I got
my degree. It was an email like, hey, we'll love
you to do this product, and I'm like okay, And
I remember my first thing was with this turbine company.
I forgot the name of the company, and it was
for two hundred dollars and it was unlimited usage. I
didn't know what usage was.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
So that video ran for four years and might even
still be running ads that I'm not getting paid for
because I didn't even.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Know what that was. Yeah, yeah, what is usage?
Speaker 1 (12:57):
And then also like what are rates, especially in the
black community, because our rates are different than our white
kunt of parts. I could have more followers than a
white person online possibly and they still may get paid
more than me for a deal.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
It just is what it is.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
But you also don't know what real money is, and
talking about numbers is so taboo. So in the beginning,
I did it be able for four thousand dollars And
in my mind, one thousand dollars for a thirty second
video was qt dollars to me.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Yeah, but then you look up and folks are.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Getting tens and twenties and thirties and forties of thousands
of dollars to do a thirty second video, but you
had no idea. Within our community, we have to be
more transparent about what it looks like, but also finding
the nuance, and that is tough because I know, like
the assumption of me could be very different than what
I got going on. Privately, I think the first, like
little whatever is about content creation that would give to
someone who was trying to embark on the journey is
(13:41):
be product focused. People want to sell a thing, and
if you're not selling a thing or can't get people
to align with what you are doing, it's going to
be difficult to monetize your page. Consistency is key, not
consistency from a thow spaghetti at the wall, but like consistency,
this is what to expect from me every Wednesday at three,
every Monday at four.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
You know, people just know what they're looking for.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Streaming has kind of ruined this, but I'm old enough
to know what it was like to wait till Thursday
at seven o'clock to watch your favorite show. And also
like maybe this isn't good to say, but take it
with a greater salt. Don't be so quick to quit
your job. I think I think everybody. Everybody you know,
but everybody wants to be like I left my job
to pursue full time and I'm full time. It works
for you, but it's just not the stunt you think
it is. It's okay, Like take your time, it's fine.
(14:24):
You quit your full time with is nine to five
to become an entrepreneur.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
Then you get to create your own hours, and it's like, yeah,
but the hour's pretty much changed from nine to five
to five am to nine pm. Like in my case,
I work way more than I ever did when I
was at my corporate jobs. Now work from home and
the work can come in at any time in the
morning from New York all the way up until six
seven o'clock at night while I'm in La right, And
so I think that's a great thing to put out
(14:49):
there to people, like this is an actual job.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
And you get way more responsibility that you never had
in corporate. I didn't even know what my taxes was doing.
I didn't know what a S corp LLC. I didn't
know anything.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
I went to school for business and I know a lot,
but there are still things where I'm like, oh, I
had no idea, Like how hard this becomes when you
have to manage yourself.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
The tough part about it, too, is like coming into
a lot of money quickly. It sounds a little cuter
than it is. I left our corporate job making like
thirty one hundred dollars a month. When I got my money,
I spent it. I still got from at the end
of the during taxis I was cute. Yeah, when I
started doing this full time, I would get way more money.
And my first year at it, I did well, and
I'm spending money. Then I'm like, oh, wait, hold on,
(15:30):
how much is taxes?
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Wait a minute? What hold on?
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Yeah, then you don't pay this person and that person,
And really you're like, I'm not really as baling as
I thought.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Hold on, because you're so used to a system where
the taxes are already taken out, the things are already
done for you.
Speaker 4 (15:45):
You get to the year, end of the year.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
You find your taxes, you move on, whereas with this
it's like, oh, I have to put a certain amount
aside for taxes, or I have to run my own
payroll to pay myself from the lump sum so that
the taxes do come out and get paid. Then I
have to file taxes for the els and file personal.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
Tax for myself.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
It's a whole it's.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
A whole thing what's taxable, and so you can give
it to yourself and I give it to the government.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
It all is complicated, but I think people need to
hear it because I think a lot of people want
to do this and want to get into this, but
it is not for the faint of heart.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Yeah, And I also feel like, don't and maybe this
is like again the older person than me, don't skip
the journey, Like I mean, maybe you can skip it now.
I don't know, but I remember most people that during
my time, in terms of social media and monetizing it,
we're doing stuff for free and always you hear that.
But like everything is not gonna be a huge payout. First,
I have five thousand followers and I'm not doing nothing
for free. Girl, Yes you are. I hate to break
(16:36):
it to you. Don't be afraid to get your feet
wet it make some mistakes. The beauty of not having
an audience you get to create in a way.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Different way than you do when you have one.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Expectations are lower, which is also a positive thing, and
you get to just do you.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
You need to build followings for certain things that you
want to be able to do career wise, but then
you are beholden to the following and the things that
you have to do and say and represent and their
expectations you. With every new person, the expectation of you grows,
who the humanity of you is reduced because you become
(17:10):
a figure to them you don't and they sometimes don't
see you as human for sure.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Catching up with your expansion isn't always the easiest thing
to do, so people may view you in a way
that you don't view yourself yet. Yeah, things get tacky
and you're like, wait, this is tacky now. Like I
was talking to a friend about I might do some
merch and they was like, oh yo, please like no,
and I was like why another that's so tacky. I'm
like why I was doing merch two years ago? But
now it's like Apropos like now you shouldn't be. But
(17:36):
he's like, people assume that you're rich, and I'm like, well,
I'm not rich though, but people when they assume you're rich,
you kind of then get lumped up into that assumption.
So now you got to move like a rich person.
So like you don't get to do certain things, say
certain things. God forbid you ask Mighty for help, or
God forbid you don't have resources to do a thing
like no because he's rich and he don't need it.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
I always have like the visibility is always faster than
the wealth, and to not assume that these followers equal dollars.
Speaker 4 (18:02):
They don't. And I remind people of the time.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
It's like, yeah, I have like almost forty thousand followers
on Instagram.
Speaker 4 (18:07):
Oh that's a lot. And it's like, yeah, but I've
sold over a quarter million books.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
So.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
That's a reality.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
And also in the selling of that many books, I
only get a certain percent of each book.
Speaker 4 (18:21):
And so when you then break down the numbers.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
And then fifteen percent goes here and five percent goes
to the attorney and this munch goes here, it's like
it's not And then we also have responsibilities like outside
of just taking care self, we have family, We have
friends who also assume you rich at times, and you
have to break down you really do. You have to
break down the numbers to them.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
And the requirements. Like I don't know if this is
a black community thing, but I think our expectation to
immediately taking care of our older relatives is so quick.
You don't get but five seconds to even put your
feet in the money you're making, because you automatically are
assumed to have to give it to this person and
take care of this person and take this load off
of this person. And it's like I'm still climbing, even
(19:06):
if I have made an abundance of resources.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
They're going back into the dream.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
They're going back into what it means to keep fueling
where I'm trying to go. Because although this space may
look good, this is not the final mark for myself.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
I think it just becomes like riddled with boundaries.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
And because a lot of us weren't raised with boundaries,
we weren't allowed to say no. I often equate it
to our relationship with people's opinions. And you can go
right back to childhood in a very grand way, and
it can show you exactly where you got that from.
When you're young, you get a new pair of shoes,
a new shirt, a new hairstyle, whatever, And the first
thing your parents or your guardians ask you when you
come home, it's what did the kids think about your hair?
(19:41):
What do they say about your shoes? Is if that's
the primary functionality of them being good. And so you
get big, you're like, oh, well everybody said I look cute,
or my teacher said that my dress was pretty, and
now you automatically developed this idea that people saying you
look good it's supposed to give you all this confidence. Now,
I think with boundaries, it's like when it's not to
show your food, right, God forbid, I want my food,
God forbid, I'm just hungry, right, And it's like this
(20:03):
idea i'most to automatically just share. If someone wants some
of my snacks, some of my chips, some of my whatever. Share,
but I want my chips. You're not wrong for want
of your chips. You're not selfish for one of your chips.
But we automatically think that. So now we're adults and
you just say no. Why I wasn't allowed to say
no for eighteen years, and now I'm supposed to be
able to spat it out instantly. It's very difficult, and
(20:25):
I think for myself, sending those boundaries without guilt has
been an astronomical feat. Yeah, I can say no, but
then I'm buried in guilt for forty eight hours, and
that's not comfortable, especially coming from a under resource community,
a marginalized group of people. If you have a little
bit more than the average, a little bit more than
if you got some coins after bills, you need to
(20:47):
be helping somebody because if not, God forbid, you want
to help yourself.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Like you said, people don't see the mental toll that
it takes on me. Sometimes I have to feel like
I have to keep generating to even feel comfortable to
give the support, or I'm giving support knowing I don't
really have it to give, but.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
I feel like I'm in a better place to figure.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
It out than the other person is, which is just
which is pressure because it's like I don't really have
it to give, I'm gonna give it because I know
I can figure it out. Yeah, Gabrielle Union has talked
about it a lot, and she's like, yeah, because yeah,
me and my husband make a lot of money. But
she's like, we also take care of seven households, like
not seven people, seven households, which is a lot. So
(21:35):
it's just something I talked about enough. My mentor calls
it the black tax, which is essentially, if I make
the exact same amount of money as a white person,
because white people tend to come from generational wealth, they
have less people that they need to help. And because
white communities already have more privileges than black communities, they
have less of a communal obligation. When you start to
break down how our money has to be spent, there's
(21:57):
a black tax that comes with it because we are
gonna help our families or our friends, and.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
The black community money goes up, and other communities money
goes down. Meaning like your parents just give you, prepare you,
and you prepare your kids and so on and so forth.
But for us, like you get prepared them to go
back up.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
But I think these are the tough conversations that we
have to start having, especially now with so many of
our rights being taken and stripped away. Mutual aid is
probably our main way of survival going forward until some
things change, So we do still have to find out
ways to help on another when we come back. Obio
opens up about the pressure of visibility, the myth of
overnight success, and the real cost of going viral while
(22:36):
black and queer. And now back to my conversation with
(23:05):
Obio Jones. You said an interview before that you specifically
want your platform to emphasize joy. And it doesn't mean
that we don't talk about the other things and the
other issues, but you specifically want to emphasize joy.
Speaker 4 (23:19):
Why is that important to you?
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Because I often say that somebody got to be seen
having fun, just because I think even in our advocacy,
it can look like to be gay is to often
be in a fight, and maybe it is, but I
think somebody has to show that, like it's not all
bad or tough, even for myself, Like there's been difficulty
in my freedom, but I wouldn't go back to shame.
There's nothing that would get me back in nobody's closet.
(23:42):
You do have people who are fighting for book bands,
but up George, you do have people who are on
the front lines of trans rights, which is beautiful, but
you also need people who are not anonymous in their giving.
I'm not like somebody who like, is the cute boy
who's like ambiguous and is he gay? Like you know
I'm queer, you know I'm black, you know who I am.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
For me, was always.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Important that you saw me happy, like even honestly to
the point where in the beginning it was kind of
toxic because I wasn't.
Speaker 4 (24:08):
I was positivity. Yeah, hi key, I have a good friend.
I'd be like that talks of positivity, ain't yeah. I
was like, you got to share, ain't all right? It's okay.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
I get what the closet afforded me was being extremely
liked by so many people. Often, so even if someone
did have a negative perspective of me, it was people
who were going to jump on me immediately. That was
always my reality. And then I come out and there's
people who are saying these about me, and.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Ain't no defense.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Everybody's agreeing like, oh he gave for pay, or oh
he's not really gay, or he pretended, oh all these things,
and I'm like, now, wait a minute. Paul said, you know,
everyone's in drag until they kind of go away. I
don't remember the exact quote, you know, but.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
It's like like trans woman that says that all the time,
your quote Jad Vans or people and be like this
is drag, and.
Speaker 4 (24:54):
We would like, oh, I guess it is like these
people is just dressing.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Uh key, Like you put on your drag in the
morning and and you pump it like I'm trying to
like make sure people know that. But I also I
think in the beginning was tough because I can't tell
you the amount of people say, wait, you're smart, and
I'm like, was he as something that I was dumb?
And people transparently like low key, like I wasn't trying
to come up like an idiot.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
I want to like have.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
A digestible conversation around just your everyday stuff. Even on
my series, it was around like the second I came
out the closet, so I didn't know anybody who was
gay for real. These are guys who just want to
come on a show. But I don't even know these guys.
I'm like, you just were willing to come on and
talk about being gay, so I'm down, let's have this conversation.
It was good talk for the most part, and then
of course, as you get older, I got damn, his
(25:37):
name is escaping me, my boy who does some really
beautiful work in the hiv A space, and he came
on and talked about his experience and stuff like that.
But I think in the beginning it really was like,
who can make gay digestible in a way that younger
me needed. I really wanted to see just some happy,
go lucky gay dudes moving through the space, not depicted
as sick and falling over, not someone who was unhoused.
(25:59):
I wanted to see people who were just jamming and
doing their thing. When I found myself highly visible, I
want to just like showcase some fun vibes. But now
I almost feel beholden to that because a little piece
of me is like.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Not to get deep.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
But we got to have some separate conversations. Gosh, no
funny shit, like you know, and it becomes tough when
everybody's like, oh wait, it's getting real and I'm like, yeah,
kind of like because this ain't a joke though, happy,
but I ain't playing.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
I was in college too that for like oh three
dohar seven, and I just remember the ways in which
people would talk about HIV queerness and the depictions, as
you said, that were scary and educated on how far
we had progressed with treatment and people who are actually
being able to live with HIV now, and how it
wasn't just an automatic death sentence terminology. We really really
(26:50):
trying to use it anymore. Now we really don't even
talk about it as.
Speaker 4 (26:53):
Like age anymore.
Speaker 3 (26:54):
We have just made so much progress, and so I
totally understand how it can be hard when we don't
have depictions of an entire community and we only are.
Speaker 4 (27:04):
Pivoted into like depictions in one way.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
Specifically, because I'm publicly HIV positive, a lot of people
are like, no, you being you and smiling and dressing
fashionably and killing it in books and stuff.
Speaker 4 (27:15):
They was like, and we know that you're publicly HIV
pot like.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
It has helped so many people who needed a depiction
of just someone like that they could look up to
to know that they would be okay too, And we
all got to work to break through the stigmas that
have harmed us and affected us in that way.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
I came out in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
I was able to meet so many different kinds of people,
and I think even for myself, like people have this
understanding that the publicly or the comfortably queer people are
the only people who experience the realities of being queer.
But it's not necessarily the truth the person who was
closetive for a very long time. My first time interacting
with someone who was HIV positive wasn't after coming out.
I was introduced people who were and I remember my
(28:08):
first time interacting with someone who was positive.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
I was so afraid I think I was like.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Twenty one, twenty two, But I was also confused because
in my young, dumb mind at the time, around queerness,
I thought that I wouldn't know. I thought that you
would look sickly. But I'm like so handsome, so healthy,
all the things. And I got lucky to be educated
by someone who I think also understood it right, who
understood whether they're talking about want.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
To yeah, because a lot of it is hard work,
for sure, to educate the people who we also need
to feel loved by.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
I didn't know what undetectable was. I didn't know what
anything was at the time. But I think then with time,
I wouldn't have been in danger by kissing you, having
sex with you, I wouldn't have been I just wasn't
in danger, Like it just wasn't a dangerous place to
be in. I think a lot of what straight people
have learned from me, which wasn't even necessarily my goal,
a lot of them have learned there isn't like an
image of queerness.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
You can't look gay.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
I think a lot of people felt like they would
know gay when they seen gay, or like gay has
his face or this tonality or this walk or this outfit.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
But in reality, gay.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Is just a sexual orientation and it has nothing to
do with what I wear, where I go.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Who I know.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
What has been so beautiful in some way is Hey,
I'm gay. I'm not anything else. I'm not pretending to
be anything but gay. I'm also not forcing myself into
masculinity and or force the femininity. I am just interacting
with myself. If you catch the right day and may
give a pump, and may give a work, and may
give a nochet on another day, it just depends on
where you see me and how you see me. I
(29:39):
want a crusade to really figure this out. And last thing,
my favorite color actually is blue. And what I mean
is it wasn't until I open myself up to all
the colors being my favorite color that I truly got
back to my actual color. I think I thought that
my color could not be blue, right because I'm a boy.
I've been told it was blue for so long. It's
only blue because conditioning. There's no way it's actually blew it.
(30:00):
And then I legitimately went down to the studs and
was like, Okay, let's really experience these colors. What does
it look like? What does it feel like what color
do I? And it really just is blue and it's beautiful.
I said that to say, the journey to freedom is
not to take your clothes off and go to clubs
and have sex with every body. The goal is to
do what you want to do. If that is takemum
clothes off, take them clothes off. If it is having
(30:22):
sense of their body, have text responsibly and essentually, get
it cracking. The goal is to find out what you
actually want to do, one way or the other.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
I was going to ask you what are some words
that live by in twenty twenty five, but I think
you just said it. Freedom prebably got to tap into yourself.
Really do that work to be like, Okay, my favorite
color is actually blue. Like you know, you actually can't
unlearned conditioning. You've already been conditioned, So it's not something
to unlearn. It's something that you have to actually work on, right,
It's just something you want to be able to acknowledge
(30:53):
and then rectify, like you actually did the work to
be like Okay, this as small as it makes seem,
it's like, this is actually my favorite color. Like we're
conditioned to be pink and blue, but for some of
us that is actually once we get down to it's like,
oh shit, this is actually my favorite actually want.
Speaker 4 (31:10):
Yeah, it's always been orange, and.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
But I was like, you know, possibly because I was
born on Halloween, possibly because I'm Knicks fan, so.
Speaker 4 (31:19):
Because it's always just been that. But Obi all want
to thank you for being on the show today.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
This was great.
Speaker 3 (31:24):
You get to talk about yourself and like your real life,
like they get opens up people to actually getting to
know who you are more outside of Obio Jones, the
viral face.
Speaker 4 (31:32):
Yeah, with the good skiing and hair and the things.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
Thank you for coming on this show of course anytime.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
Yes, and today I'm leaving you with a quote from
the iconic poet laureate Nikki Giovanni. Deal with yourself as
an individual worthy of respect and make everyone else deal
with you the same way. Fighting Words is a production
(32:10):
of iHeart Podcasts in partnership with Best Case Studios. I'm
Georgian Johnson. This episode was produced by Charlotte Morley. Executive
producers are myself and Twiggy Puchi guar Song with Adam
Pinks and Brick Cats for Best Case Studios. The theme
song was written and composed by kole Vas, Bambianna, and myself.
Speaker 4 (32:31):
Original music by Klevas.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
This episode was edited and scored by Max Michael Miller.
Our iHeart Team is Ali Perry and Carl Ketel following
Rap Fighting Words Wherever you get your podcast
I think a lot of people can identify the moment
in which their wings got clipped and who clipped them.
The tough part is removing the fear of asking people
out of your life.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
A lot of what is in the way it is family.
You don't see the real.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
That's Obio Jones, a bold creator, life coach and advocate.
He's using humor, heart and hard truth to carbout space
for black red voices. Today you'll hear Obio speak candidly
about identity, healing and why sometimes the most radical thing
you can do is to show up as your full self.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
When you're queer and visible, everything is groundbreaking, even when
you don't want it to be. People post their partner.
That's not like as revolution, It's just it is what
it is. But when you're gay, it's like that's a
big deal.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Singing in the heavy handed what the world take a
sup of grandee and coaching guy, you know what the
plan is?
Speaker 4 (00:58):
Orca a Latin you know one does seem to stand.
My name is George M. Johnson.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
I am the New York Times best selling author of
the book All Boys Aren't Blue, which is the number
one most challenged book in the United States.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
This is Fighting Words.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
A show where we take you to the front lines
of the culture wars with the people who are using
their words to make change and who refuse to be silenced.
Today's guest Obio Jones. I'm here today with a good friend.
You've probably seen his face all over the internet. He
has a face that tends to go viral pretty often.
(01:35):
Obio Jones, how are you today?
Speaker 2 (01:37):
I'm good.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
I'm better that I'm talking to you, George.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
What's going down? Me?
Speaker 3 (01:42):
And have quite interesting conversations about life. We do very
interested in public. Sometimes our public personas precede us, and
people make a lot of assumptions about who we are,
what our lived experiences are, and so we just always
like to start off by letting you introduce yourself.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
So who is Obio Jones?
Speaker 1 (02:00):
I would define me as fun and I know that
sounds like frivolous, but I think in a world where
fun requires freedom, I think me maintaining my fund is
really important to me. I'm an active life coach. I
create concept for TikTok, YouTube and Instagram centered around lifestyle,
beauty and fashion, but also an advocacy layer to it.
Just because I am queer and black and in the space,
(02:22):
and I recognize the space that I occupy, and I'm
now a fiance, So that's I don't think I'm sun about,
so we'll take that.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
I think sometimes the term life coach can have a
negative connotation in people's minds. What's the difference between a
life coach and a therapist or a psychologist? What is
actually like life coaching?
Speaker 1 (02:41):
I think the primary difference between life coaching and therapy
is goals, right, Like I think like therapy is centered
around like this overarching maintenance of your past and present
experiences to maintain a good mental wellness. But coaching is
more like, what do you want to accomplish and what's
in the way, and let's talk about the things that
are in the way, let's remove them, let's get you
to this goal. That's the unique difference where I think
(03:03):
if your therapist is telling you what to do, they're
probably not a good therapist. You know, your therapist walks
you through your own experiences to navigate when you were experiencing,
And I think a coach is more like, no, do this,
do that, do this, do that.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
It's like like the coach of a basketball team, Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Exactly right now.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Life coach is like a really good teammate who cares
about your emotions. It wants you to feel really good,
and that kind of thing where a coach is like, hey,
I don't care getting this get in.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
The field, let's get above it.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
And that's what are some common issues that you see
come up again and again and like what type of
clients do you do coaching for?
Speaker 1 (03:37):
My clients are also different. I have a fifty two
year old white woman all the way down to like
twenty one year old queer men as vast but what
I see often is wrestling with that childhood. Their childhood
comes up and interferes with their ability to go after
their dreams.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
They often identify with that right, but I think a lot.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Of people can identify the moment in which their wings
got clipped and who clipped them.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Wow. The tough part is.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Removing the the fear of like exing people out of
your life.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
A lot of what is in the way. It's family.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
A lot of times you gotta tell so and so
to get up out of here, you know, and it
is what it is. I'm seeing a constant someone told me,
and that someone's usually a family member that I couldn't,
that I could, that I shouldn't, that I don't, that
I can't, that I won't, and an interference that there goes.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
Wow, and how do you walk someone through that? Sometimes
family can be great, and then there can be times
where it's like very stressful, lots of responsibilities sometimes that
are bestowed upon us, when people are like, oh, you
just gotta cut people off, and it's like it's not
that easy sometimes, you know, family cousins are like your
first friends, you know, and then you get older and
personalities change and things get different.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
How do you if you have to like stop.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
Talking to a family member, Like, what is the process
of even going through that?
Speaker 1 (04:55):
I like to start with best case scenarios and welcome back.
I think what a lot of people do is urge
their reality with their dreams, which can sometimes make the
dream impossible.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Right. It's like, if you're trying to envision a world.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
That you like, but you have to put your mom
in or you have to put your cousin who's negative
in it, you can't really get to the fullness of
your dreams if.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
You best case scenario at first.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
I want a world that's happy, full of autonomy, that
I can wake up slow and go to bed easy
and all of these things. You then can be a
little more honest about what that can't even happen with
some and so that can't even happen in this city
or you know whatever. As a good practice for me
is best case scenario at first, and then walk it
back to your reality, and you'll find that those people
will kind of ex themselves up.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
We're now officially out of one of the hardest pride
moms had to existing. We already know espes'sally, when it
comes to black LGBTQ folks, family sometimes doesn't even exist
for sure. How do you help people to advocate better
for themselves? Specifically when it comes to like chosen family.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
A lot of people, especially people who are navigating being
uncomfortably queer or closet or whatever name you want to
call it. I think you got to let go of
the shame. A lot of people are afraid to build family,
not relatives, but family.
Speaker 4 (06:18):
Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
They are because they're afraid of the judgment they once
added to them.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
I said those people were weird or wrong or what
have you.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
And now I'm also like vying for their friendship and
so I forgive myself and kind of do my own
little journey or whatever. You're not going to allow yourself
to be open to the community. That is not like
a privilege, it's a necessity. It's going to be very
difficult for you to really reach the fullness of whatever you.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Want to become by yourself.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
I mean, I don't know, we're gonna talk about your book,
like all boys aren't blue.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Like a lot of people just didn't grow up with that,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Yeah, you felt so isolated and then you actually get
but behind the smoke and mirror, like, oh wait a minute,
I'm a lot more alike to the community that I
once was afraid of that I shamed at whatever, And
now I can open myself to community. But again for
myself personally, I'll be quiet after this. Yes, my journey
to my freedom was more about acknowledging that I am gay,
(07:08):
acknowledging that I like men. But a lot of it
was forgiving all the judgment that I added to a
community to keep myself safe from it. I have to
make them wrong so I don't slip up and fall
into that community right because they ain't wrong, then I
might be one of them and I can't be one
of them. And that was the toughest part for me.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
And now with that one eighty, you have become very visible.
Now you're a fiance Damel Simon, who is also a
very public figure and an actor on a hit sitcom.
How has that then to navigate the desire to want
to showcase black love with the attacks that come at
(07:47):
you being too visible with it.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
It's so convoluted it becomes difficult because what sometimes we
do within marginalized groups is we prescribe I call them uniforms, right,
when in the great community, we've kind of given in
a uniform to queerness, a uniform to like black success,
to all of these things. When you kind of separate
yourself from that, it's easy to like judgment. For me,
it was like, I'm a maschline body who's also with
(08:10):
another maschlum body. Typical, Right, I'm a newly out person
who's with a newly out person, typical. All these typical
things that were very like girl, you know, which I
understand wholeheartedly.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
But the alternative is what right?
Speaker 1 (08:22):
And then there's a people who are like, Okay, well,
he has a little bit of success thank god he
chose a black person, so you get a little bit
of grace.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
You know.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Yeah, the assumption is that we're going to end up
with people who are non black exactly.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
I think when you're queer and visible, everything is groundbreaking,
even when you don't want it to be. People post
their partner. That's not like that's revolution, it's just it
is what it is. But when you're gay, it's like
that's a big deal. You don't really get the privilege
of just casually posting your dude going to get a coffee.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Fiance.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
He really wasn't aware, and I know it sounds like
a cop out, but he hadn't experience being visibly queer
for a very long time online, So you're already new
to this space, and you're like, wait, what did I
do wrong? Kind of when you're met with people who
are like, oh, this is like phony or this is whatever,
you're like, wait.
Speaker 4 (09:06):
I'm cutting off for the cameras, yeah, and.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
I'm like, hey boy, just you know, focus on the positor.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
It's not easy to be a public figure, but it's
even harder to be a black public figure than even
harder to be a black queer public figure. Like every
time you add a layer of identity to who you
are as a public figure, it just adds a different
type of visceral reaction from a different part of community.
We get judgment sometimes in our own community, and sometimes,
(09:33):
I mean, critique makes us grow. So I'm always fine
with any criticisms that come up for me and what
I do and all of those things. But it's like,
sometimes I have to remind people, like, I'm also fighting
the United States government. Can y'all give me like ten
minutes and I'll address your concerns with this thing. How
have you dealt with navigating which things you should address
and which things you're just like, I'm not addressing this.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
I have been fortunate enough to have access to people
like you, people like Darnell Moore. The list goes on
right because of that, I see everybody's lane. When you
don't you expect the few gay people that you know
to speak to every single detail of every single thing.
And it's like, I know what George does, and I
can't do what George does. I know what Darnelle does,
I know what these people do. Because I think in
the beginning I was kind of like that because people
(10:17):
were asking me every question under the sun. I'm like, okay,
well let me answer it, let me speak to this,
speak to that. And I'm like, I think we will
be more informous to direct you to somebody who has
a more research perspective, that person who's just giving some
arbitrary opinion because they just have a mouth. When to
advocate though, right, Like, I don't have to be a
part of an experience.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
To advocate for it. I did it.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
They are recent where I put Tampon's and Mitchel products
in the men's bathroom and people you know, of course
losing their minds because minds are easy to lose when
they're simple. I'll use this an opportunity to educate through
their transmit have periods and some of them who have
not undergone his rectomies, And I think I don't have
to be part of that. So there is a slippery
slope of it. But I think I'm also not gonna
like bombard a space in which someone else is already occupied.
(10:56):
There is hope Jazelle can talk to you about certains
that I can I talk to you about. And I
think for me it's a bit about like I would
be goofy to get online and say, hey, guys, I
just forwarded a video that Hoped Zelle did to thirteen people.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
I think that's kind of how I navigate.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Hmm, this is not mine, this is Hopes, this is George's,
this is his, this is theirs, and this is mine though,
and let's do it.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
You know, when we come back, Obio gets real about
navigating family boundaries, building chosen family and unexpected healing that
comes from finally choosing yourself. And now back to my
(11:51):
conversation with Obio Jones, So what goes into you being
a content creator? I want people to understand like the
business side of content creating because I think people see
others do it and they're like, oh, I could do
that too, and it's like you should hear it from
someone that's doing it to tell you like, that's a job.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
The tough part about where I exist online, especially as
relates to the career of online, is that I, like
a lot of people, my agent older wandered into the
career where I think now gen Z and below are
having strategy to do this career, which is a little
bit different. I started a series talking about queerness and
I was just talking. I thought that I joanted to
(12:31):
build a community. I had my corporate job, I got
my degree. It was an email like, hey, we'll love
you to do this product, and I'm like okay, And
I remember my first thing was with this turbine company.
I forgot the name of the company, and it was
for two hundred dollars and it was unlimited usage. I
didn't know what usage was.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
So that video ran for four years and might even
still be running ads that I'm not getting paid for
because I didn't even.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Know what that was. Yeah, yeah, what is usage?
Speaker 1 (12:57):
And then also like what are rates, especially in the
black community, because our rates are different than our white
kunt of parts. I could have more followers than a
white person online possibly and they still may get paid
more than me for a deal.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
It just is what it is.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
But you also don't know what real money is, and
talking about numbers is so taboo. So in the beginning,
I did it be able for four thousand dollars And
in my mind, one thousand dollars for a thirty second
video was qt dollars to me.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Yeah, but then you look up and folks are.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Getting tens and twenties and thirties and forties of thousands
of dollars to do a thirty second video, but you
had no idea. Within our community, we have to be
more transparent about what it looks like, but also finding
the nuance, and that is tough because I know, like
the assumption of me could be very different than what
I got going on. Privately, I think the first, like
little whatever is about content creation that would give to
someone who was trying to embark on the journey is
(13:41):
be product focused. People want to sell a thing, and
if you're not selling a thing or can't get people
to align with what you are doing, it's going to
be difficult to monetize your page. Consistency is key, not
consistency from a thow spaghetti at the wall, but like consistency,
this is what to expect from me every Wednesday at three,
every Monday at four.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
You know, people just know what they're looking for.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Streaming has kind of ruined this, but I'm old enough
to know what it was like to wait till Thursday
at seven o'clock to watch your favorite show. And also
like maybe this isn't good to say, but take it
with a greater salt. Don't be so quick to quit
your job. I think I think everybody. Everybody you know,
but everybody wants to be like I left my job
to pursue full time and I'm full time. It works
for you, but it's just not the stunt you think
it is. It's okay, Like take your time, it's fine.
(14:24):
You quit your full time with is nine to five
to become an entrepreneur.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
Then you get to create your own hours, and it's like, yeah,
but the hour's pretty much changed from nine to five
to five am to nine pm. Like in my case,
I work way more than I ever did when I
was at my corporate jobs. Now work from home and
the work can come in at any time in the
morning from New York all the way up until six
seven o'clock at night while I'm in La right, And
so I think that's a great thing to put out
(14:49):
there to people, like this is an actual job.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
And you get way more responsibility that you never had
in corporate. I didn't even know what my taxes was doing.
I didn't know what a S corp LLC. I didn't
know anything.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
I went to school for business and I know a lot,
but there are still things where I'm like, oh, I
had no idea, Like how hard this becomes when you
have to manage yourself.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
The tough part about it, too, is like coming into
a lot of money quickly. It sounds a little cuter
than it is. I left our corporate job making like
thirty one hundred dollars a month. When I got my money,
I spent it. I still got from at the end
of the during taxis I was cute. Yeah, when I
started doing this full time, I would get way more money.
And my first year at it, I did well, and
I'm spending money. Then I'm like, oh, wait, hold on,
(15:30):
how much is taxes?
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Wait a minute? What hold on?
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Yeah, then you don't pay this person and that person,
And really you're like, I'm not really as baling as
I thought.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Hold on, because you're so used to a system where
the taxes are already taken out, the things are already
done for you.
Speaker 4 (15:45):
You get to the year, end of the year.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
You find your taxes, you move on, whereas with this
it's like, oh, I have to put a certain amount
aside for taxes, or I have to run my own
payroll to pay myself from the lump sum so that
the taxes do come out and get paid. Then I
have to file taxes for the els and file personal.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
Tax for myself.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
It's a whole it's.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
A whole thing what's taxable, and so you can give
it to yourself and I give it to the government.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
It all is complicated, but I think people need to
hear it because I think a lot of people want
to do this and want to get into this, but
it is not for the faint of heart.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Yeah, And I also feel like, don't and maybe this
is like again the older person than me, don't skip
the journey, Like I mean, maybe you can skip it now.
I don't know, but I remember most people that during
my time, in terms of social media and monetizing it,
we're doing stuff for free and always you hear that.
But like everything is not gonna be a huge payout. First,
I have five thousand followers and I'm not doing nothing
for free. Girl, Yes you are. I hate to break
(16:36):
it to you. Don't be afraid to get your feet
wet it make some mistakes. The beauty of not having
an audience you get to create in a way.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Different way than you do when you have one.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Expectations are lower, which is also a positive thing, and
you get to just do you.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
You need to build followings for certain things that you
want to be able to do career wise, but then
you are beholden to the following and the things that
you have to do and say and represent and their
expectations you. With every new person, the expectation of you grows,
who the humanity of you is reduced because you become
(17:10):
a figure to them you don't and they sometimes don't
see you as human for sure.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Catching up with your expansion isn't always the easiest thing
to do, so people may view you in a way
that you don't view yourself yet. Yeah, things get tacky
and you're like, wait, this is tacky now. Like I
was talking to a friend about I might do some
merch and they was like, oh yo, please like no,
and I was like why another that's so tacky. I'm
like why I was doing merch two years ago? But
now it's like Apropos like now you shouldn't be. But
(17:36):
he's like, people assume that you're rich, and I'm like, well,
I'm not rich though, but people when they assume you're rich,
you kind of then get lumped up into that assumption.
So now you got to move like a rich person.
So like you don't get to do certain things, say
certain things. God forbid you ask Mighty for help, or
God forbid you don't have resources to do a thing
like no because he's rich and he don't need it.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
I always have like the visibility is always faster than
the wealth, and to not assume that these followers equal dollars.
Speaker 4 (18:02):
They don't. And I remind people of the time.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
It's like, yeah, I have like almost forty thousand followers
on Instagram.
Speaker 4 (18:07):
Oh that's a lot. And it's like, yeah, but I've
sold over a quarter million books.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
So.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
That's a reality.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
And also in the selling of that many books, I
only get a certain percent of each book.
Speaker 4 (18:21):
And so when you then break down the numbers.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
And then fifteen percent goes here and five percent goes
to the attorney and this munch goes here, it's like
it's not And then we also have responsibilities like outside
of just taking care self, we have family, We have
friends who also assume you rich at times, and you
have to break down you really do. You have to
break down the numbers to them.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
And the requirements. Like I don't know if this is
a black community thing, but I think our expectation to
immediately taking care of our older relatives is so quick.
You don't get but five seconds to even put your
feet in the money you're making, because you automatically are
assumed to have to give it to this person and
take care of this person and take this load off
of this person. And it's like I'm still climbing, even
(19:06):
if I have made an abundance of resources.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
They're going back into the dream.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
They're going back into what it means to keep fueling
where I'm trying to go. Because although this space may
look good, this is not the final mark for myself.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
I think it just becomes like riddled with boundaries.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
And because a lot of us weren't raised with boundaries,
we weren't allowed to say no. I often equate it
to our relationship with people's opinions. And you can go
right back to childhood in a very grand way, and
it can show you exactly where you got that from.
When you're young, you get a new pair of shoes,
a new shirt, a new hairstyle, whatever, And the first
thing your parents or your guardians ask you when you
come home, it's what did the kids think about your hair?
(19:41):
What do they say about your shoes? Is if that's
the primary functionality of them being good. And so you
get big, you're like, oh, well everybody said I look cute,
or my teacher said that my dress was pretty, and
now you automatically developed this idea that people saying you
look good it's supposed to give you all this confidence. Now,
I think with boundaries, it's like when it's not to
show your food, right, God forbid, I want my food,
God forbid, I'm just hungry, right, And it's like this
(20:03):
idea i'most to automatically just share. If someone wants some
of my snacks, some of my chips, some of my whatever. Share,
but I want my chips. You're not wrong for want
of your chips. You're not selfish for one of your chips.
But we automatically think that. So now we're adults and
you just say no. Why I wasn't allowed to say
no for eighteen years, and now I'm supposed to be
able to spat it out instantly. It's very difficult, and
(20:25):
I think for myself, sending those boundaries without guilt has
been an astronomical feat. Yeah, I can say no, but
then I'm buried in guilt for forty eight hours, and
that's not comfortable, especially coming from a under resource community,
a marginalized group of people. If you have a little
bit more than the average, a little bit more than
if you got some coins after bills, you need to
(20:47):
be helping somebody because if not, God forbid, you want
to help yourself.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Like you said, people don't see the mental toll that
it takes on me. Sometimes I have to feel like
I have to keep generating to even feel comfortable to
give the support, or I'm giving support knowing I don't
really have it to give, but.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
I feel like I'm in a better place to figure.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
It out than the other person is, which is just
which is pressure because it's like I don't really have
it to give, I'm gonna give it because I know
I can figure it out. Yeah, Gabrielle Union has talked
about it a lot, and she's like, yeah, because yeah,
me and my husband make a lot of money. But
she's like, we also take care of seven households, like
not seven people, seven households, which is a lot. So
(21:35):
it's just something I talked about enough. My mentor calls
it the black tax, which is essentially, if I make
the exact same amount of money as a white person,
because white people tend to come from generational wealth, they
have less people that they need to help. And because
white communities already have more privileges than black communities, they
have less of a communal obligation. When you start to
break down how our money has to be spent, there's
(21:57):
a black tax that comes with it because we are
gonna help our families or our friends, and.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
The black community money goes up, and other communities money
goes down. Meaning like your parents just give you, prepare you,
and you prepare your kids and so on and so forth.
But for us, like you get prepared them to go
back up.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
But I think these are the tough conversations that we
have to start having, especially now with so many of
our rights being taken and stripped away. Mutual aid is
probably our main way of survival going forward until some
things change, So we do still have to find out
ways to help on another when we come back. Obio
opens up about the pressure of visibility, the myth of
overnight success, and the real cost of going viral while
(22:36):
black and queer. And now back to my conversation with
(23:05):
Obio Jones. You said an interview before that you specifically
want your platform to emphasize joy. And it doesn't mean
that we don't talk about the other things and the
other issues, but you specifically want to emphasize joy.
Speaker 4 (23:19):
Why is that important to you?
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Because I often say that somebody got to be seen
having fun, just because I think even in our advocacy,
it can look like to be gay is to often
be in a fight, and maybe it is, but I
think somebody has to show that, like it's not all
bad or tough, even for myself, Like there's been difficulty
in my freedom, but I wouldn't go back to shame.
There's nothing that would get me back in nobody's closet.
(23:42):
You do have people who are fighting for book bands,
but up George, you do have people who are on
the front lines of trans rights, which is beautiful, but
you also need people who are not anonymous in their giving.
I'm not like somebody who like, is the cute boy
who's like ambiguous and is he gay? Like you know
I'm queer, you know I'm black, you know who I am.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
For me, was always.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Important that you saw me happy, like even honestly to
the point where in the beginning it was kind of
toxic because I wasn't.
Speaker 4 (24:08):
I was positivity. Yeah, hi key, I have a good friend.
I'd be like that talks of positivity, ain't yeah. I
was like, you got to share, ain't all right? It's okay.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
I get what the closet afforded me was being extremely
liked by so many people. Often, so even if someone
did have a negative perspective of me, it was people
who were going to jump on me immediately. That was
always my reality. And then I come out and there's
people who are saying these about me, and.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Ain't no defense.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Everybody's agreeing like, oh he gave for pay, or oh
he's not really gay, or he pretended, oh all these things,
and I'm like, now, wait a minute. Paul said, you know,
everyone's in drag until they kind of go away. I
don't remember the exact quote, you know, but.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
It's like like trans woman that says that all the time,
your quote Jad Vans or people and be like this
is drag, and.
Speaker 4 (24:54):
We would like, oh, I guess it is like these
people is just dressing.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Uh key, Like you put on your drag in the
morning and and you pump it like I'm trying to
like make sure people know that. But I also I
think in the beginning was tough because I can't tell
you the amount of people say, wait, you're smart, and
I'm like, was he as something that I was dumb?
And people transparently like low key, like I wasn't trying
to come up like an idiot.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
I want to like have.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
A digestible conversation around just your everyday stuff. Even on
my series, it was around like the second I came
out the closet, so I didn't know anybody who was
gay for real. These are guys who just want to
come on a show. But I don't even know these guys.
I'm like, you just were willing to come on and
talk about being gay, so I'm down, let's have this conversation.
It was good talk for the most part, and then
of course, as you get older, I got damn, his
(25:37):
name is escaping me, my boy who does some really
beautiful work in the hiv A space, and he came
on and talked about his experience and stuff like that.
But I think in the beginning it really was like,
who can make gay digestible in a way that younger
me needed. I really wanted to see just some happy,
go lucky gay dudes moving through the space, not depicted
as sick and falling over, not someone who was unhoused.
(25:59):
I wanted to see people who were just jamming and
doing their thing. When I found myself highly visible, I
want to just like showcase some fun vibes. But now
I almost feel beholden to that because a little piece
of me is like.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Not to get deep.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
But we got to have some separate conversations. Gosh, no
funny shit, like you know, and it becomes tough when
everybody's like, oh wait, it's getting real and I'm like, yeah,
kind of like because this ain't a joke though, happy,
but I ain't playing.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
I was in college too that for like oh three
dohar seven, and I just remember the ways in which
people would talk about HIV queerness and the depictions, as
you said, that were scary and educated on how far
we had progressed with treatment and people who are actually
being able to live with HIV now, and how it
wasn't just an automatic death sentence terminology. We really really
(26:50):
trying to use it anymore. Now we really don't even
talk about it as.
Speaker 4 (26:53):
Like age anymore.
Speaker 3 (26:54):
We have just made so much progress, and so I
totally understand how it can be hard when we don't
have depictions of an entire community and we only are.
Speaker 4 (27:04):
Pivoted into like depictions in one way.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
Specifically, because I'm publicly HIV positive, a lot of people
are like, no, you being you and smiling and dressing
fashionably and killing it in books and stuff.
Speaker 4 (27:15):
They was like, and we know that you're publicly HIV
pot like.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
It has helped so many people who needed a depiction
of just someone like that they could look up to
to know that they would be okay too, And we
all got to work to break through the stigmas that
have harmed us and affected us in that way.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
I came out in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
I was able to meet so many different kinds of people,
and I think even for myself, like people have this
understanding that the publicly or the comfortably queer people are
the only people who experience the realities of being queer.
But it's not necessarily the truth the person who was
closetive for a very long time. My first time interacting
with someone who was HIV positive wasn't after coming out.
I was introduced people who were and I remember my
(28:08):
first time interacting with someone who was positive.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
I was so afraid I think I was like.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Twenty one, twenty two, But I was also confused because
in my young, dumb mind at the time, around queerness,
I thought that I wouldn't know. I thought that you
would look sickly. But I'm like so handsome, so healthy,
all the things. And I got lucky to be educated
by someone who I think also understood it right, who
understood whether they're talking about want.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
To yeah, because a lot of it is hard work,
for sure, to educate the people who we also need
to feel loved by.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
I didn't know what undetectable was. I didn't know what
anything was at the time. But I think then with time,
I wouldn't have been in danger by kissing you, having
sex with you, I wouldn't have been I just wasn't
in danger, Like it just wasn't a dangerous place to
be in. I think a lot of what straight people
have learned from me, which wasn't even necessarily my goal,
a lot of them have learned there isn't like an
image of queerness.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
You can't look gay.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
I think a lot of people felt like they would
know gay when they seen gay, or like gay has
his face or this tonality or this walk or this outfit.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
But in reality, gay.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Is just a sexual orientation and it has nothing to
do with what I wear, where I go.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Who I know.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
What has been so beautiful in some way is Hey,
I'm gay. I'm not anything else. I'm not pretending to
be anything but gay. I'm also not forcing myself into
masculinity and or force the femininity. I am just interacting
with myself. If you catch the right day and may
give a pump, and may give a work, and may
give a nochet on another day, it just depends on
where you see me and how you see me. I
(29:39):
want a crusade to really figure this out. And last thing,
my favorite color actually is blue. And what I mean
is it wasn't until I open myself up to all
the colors being my favorite color that I truly got
back to my actual color. I think I thought that
my color could not be blue, right because I'm a boy.
I've been told it was blue for so long. It's
only blue because conditioning. There's no way it's actually blew it.
(30:00):
And then I legitimately went down to the studs and
was like, Okay, let's really experience these colors. What does
it look like? What does it feel like what color
do I? And it really just is blue and it's beautiful.
I said that to say, the journey to freedom is
not to take your clothes off and go to clubs
and have sex with every body. The goal is to
do what you want to do. If that is takemum
clothes off, take them clothes off. If it is having
(30:22):
sense of their body, have text responsibly and essentually, get
it cracking. The goal is to find out what you
actually want to do, one way or the other.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
I was going to ask you what are some words
that live by in twenty twenty five, but I think
you just said it. Freedom prebably got to tap into yourself.
Really do that work to be like, Okay, my favorite
color is actually blue. Like you know, you actually can't
unlearned conditioning. You've already been conditioned, So it's not something
to unlearn. It's something that you have to actually work on, right,
It's just something you want to be able to acknowledge
(30:53):
and then rectify, like you actually did the work to
be like Okay, this as small as it makes seem,
it's like, this is actually my favorite color. Like we're
conditioned to be pink and blue, but for some of
us that is actually once we get down to it's like,
oh shit, this is actually my favorite actually want.
Speaker 4 (31:10):
Yeah, it's always been orange, and.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
But I was like, you know, possibly because I was
born on Halloween, possibly because I'm Knicks fan, so.
Speaker 4 (31:19):
Because it's always just been that. But Obi all want
to thank you for being on the show today.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
This was great.
Speaker 3 (31:24):
You get to talk about yourself and like your real life,
like they get opens up people to actually getting to
know who you are more outside of Obio Jones, the
viral face.
Speaker 4 (31:32):
Yeah, with the good skiing and hair and the things.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
Thank you for coming on this show of course anytime.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
Yes, and today I'm leaving you with a quote from
the iconic poet laureate Nikki Giovanni. Deal with yourself as
an individual worthy of respect and make everyone else deal
with you the same way. Fighting Words is a production
(32:10):
of iHeart Podcasts in partnership with Best Case Studios. I'm
Georgian Johnson. This episode was produced by Charlotte Morley. Executive
producers are myself and Twiggy Puchi guar Song with Adam
Pinks and Brick Cats for Best Case Studios. The theme
song was written and composed by kole Vas, Bambianna, and myself.
Speaker 4 (32:31):
Original music by Klevas.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
This episode was edited and scored by Max Michael Miller.
Our iHeart Team is Ali Perry and Carl Ketel following
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