December 22, 2025 • 24 mins
Today, George looks back on one year of Fighting Words and puts together moments from some of their favorite conversations, with Darnell Moore, Sapphire, Emil Wilbekin, Erika Alexander and Dana A. Williams.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
What's good. We're ready to fight. I'm ready to fight?
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Is that what I thought it was?
Speaker 3 (00:04):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (00:04):
This is fight worse? Okay, I put the hammer back.
Speaker 4 (00:11):
Welcome to Fighting Words. Today, we're doing something a little different.
As the show is coming to an end, we're looking
back at some of my favorite conversations I've had on
the podcast. My initial reasoning for starting this podcast was
because I wanted to utilize my voice and utilize my
platform to have more open and honest conversations about what
(00:33):
is going on in the world around us from some
of the people who are the leaders, the movers and
shakers of the world.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Singing in them heavy handed with the world. Take a super.
Speaker 5 (00:48):
Branded and you spoke your guy, you know.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
What the plan is, or became a Latin you know
when to understand me.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
My name is George M.
Speaker 6 (00:56):
Johnson.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
I am the New York Times best selling author.
Speaker 4 (00:58):
Of the book All Boys Aren't Blue, which is the
number one most challenged book in the United States. This
is Fighting Words, a show where we take you to
the front lines of the culture wars with the people
who are using their words to make change and who
refuse to be silenced. One thing that was really important
(01:20):
for me was to use my platform to honor black
and queer elders.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
And I say that as someone who has been called
an elder myself.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
So it made sense for me to start the show
with Darnell Moore, my friend, a mentor, and one of
my first editors. I know what you've done for me.
I think I actually know what you've done for a
lot of folks. What is it that continues to give
you the purpose driven life to be such a a
(01:50):
thought leader in your own right, but also such a
connector to make sure that those who are coming after
you have opportunities that they may not even see for themselves.
Speaker 5 (02:00):
I came up in a generation. I was born in
seventy six, so you have a right to call me old.
It's all good. I got gray in my beard right,
and so the generation of black gay men who were
to be my mentors, folks who were to be my
big brothers, were pretty much a good Many of them
(02:20):
were taken.
Speaker 7 (02:21):
By the HIV and AIDS epidemic.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
They left early.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
You know.
Speaker 5 (02:26):
I grew up in a city right across from Philly,
which is where Joseph Bean was walking the streets. I
wasn't far from DC growing up in Camber, New Jersey,
which is where Essex Henfield was right. Those are the
folk whose works resonate with me so much today, but
whose works also haunt me because they left here early.
(02:48):
So coming up really wanting direction and examples for how
I might not only sort of learn how to sort
of write a life on a page, a black queer
life from the page, but also like what it meant
to just to be a black boy growing up in
this world, Like I didn't have those elders to talk to.
(03:08):
And by the time I made it to the streets
thirteen Streets specifically in Philly when I was super young, eighteen,
you know, so many of the generation that was in
the same sort of in the same age bracket of mind,
they were also dying around me as in like quick succession.
So I've always been, I think, haunted by the ghost
(03:30):
of accumulated loss. And if you think about it, there
were a whole bunch of black kids who lacked black, queer,
trans non binary mentors because an epidemic that the government
woefully ignored took them away from us, right, So what
(03:52):
that meant for me is that I became very adamant
about making sure that I could give to those that
were coming up alongside of me the very thing that
I desired and didn't always receive.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
I also had the privilege of interviewing the legendary author Sapphire,
who also lost many of her friends to AIDS and
wrote the incredibly.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Powerful novel Push.
Speaker 4 (04:27):
Push is the story of a young African American girl
in Harlem who finds a way to heal from trauma
through writing and reading. Here's Sapphire telling me how the
book came to be.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
For me. Push was a very political text. I was
in the I was in the middle of the AIDS epidemic.
I was a dancer, I was out there, I was
on the street and everything.
Speaker 7 (04:47):
So I remember the first person we knew who died
of AIDS was a Hispanic woman.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
Hear about, you know, female skying of AIDS. All the
energy went us that this was a white male phenomena.
And of course the numbers, the grand death pole has
been black. Yes, but still when you think of December one,
World Age Day, you think of white down town. So
that was on my back and I just will never
(05:17):
forget that girl. A girl in my class stood up
and said, look, I'm having trouble getting my azt and act.
It was a bad anti viral drug that has been
replaced as miracle drugs. But it was all that we
had at the time. Yeah, and it was it was
being rationed out and being withheld. And these young black
(05:41):
girls were having trouble getting the drunk so they would
have to go down and worry a social work or whatever.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
But this was happening in front of me.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
You know what I mean. And then my friends the
dance community, see, they weren't writing poems about their fate,
they were just dying. Where oh all that type of thing,
and the demonization of people who had it. People didn't
want to touch people. We did not get at of
the education above fifty ninth Street. All the money was
(06:12):
being sent down to the gay men's health crisis, which
was almost ninety nine percent white at that time, because
they had the resource, they knew how to grant rite,
they had institutions already set up, and where the education
was needed was uptown, the Bronx all of that, and
that was not where the money was going, you know.
So all of that was just had just blown my mind.
(06:37):
And I was over worked because I was poverty stricken.
So I would teach from like nine in the morning
to twelve. I would take a break and I would
come back and I would teach night school. So I
didn't have a lot of time. And then I wrote
a poem for one of these downtown magazines and I
won a thousand dollars prize.
Speaker 7 (06:55):
Wow, and that was like, that.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Was like gig, you know, before inflation, because that cave
that my rent. That won't that won't gross. Now that
came rent. That gave my rent for the summer. So
instead of teaching summer school, I started to work on Push.
So that little bit of money and a little bit
(07:19):
of heart allowed me to start start writing the book,
and the rest is history.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
One of my favorite conversations this year was with the
mil Wilbkin, the founder of Vibe and the genius behind
some of the magazine's most famous covers, including my favorite,
Destiny's Child as the Supremes. I asked the Mill about
the origin story of Vibe, and, like all good ideas,
it started at a party. A lot of people, including myself.
We grew up on the iconic Vibe magazine, which you
(08:11):
are one of.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
The founders of.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
Yes, so could you just tell us about, like where
that idea even came from, because we are talking about
nineteen ninety three. We are talking about a really really
big booming era of music, Black music, R and B
music specifically, How did the idea of we need a
magazine to capture this, Where did.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
That come from?
Speaker 6 (08:33):
So the great origin story of Vibe is that it
was literally started by a group of friends. We all
worked in magazine publishing. We all loved music. We were
partying and staying out all night. We loved fashion, we
loved everything that was fierce. But most importantly, we loved
(08:55):
being gay and being able to express ourselves. And we're
very clear that gay co clture was the epicenter of everything.
Was the inflection point, was the inspiration, was the turn up,
was the blueprint. So we used to go to I'll
tell you the real story we used to go to
We would go out every Saturday night. We would go
(09:16):
to the Sound Factory. So we'd start at ten eighteen
or the Roxy. Then we would go to the Sound
Factory and then we would end up at the wee
hours of the morning when New York was fab and
go back to Jonathan Van Meter's house and we would
order breakfast and have coffee and just kind of have
all these ideas and what we saw and who we saw,
(09:38):
which house was turning it harder, and like all these
things were happening on the dance floor, and we were like,
we need our own magazine, Like we literally need a
magazine to catalog all of this energy that's happening. So
really important time in history too, because the late eighties,
early nineties, so we were coming out of the crack epidemic.
(10:01):
We are in the middle of the AIDS crisis. House
music and safe spaces were really really important for the
black community and the black LGBTQ plus communities, and there
was just a lot of energy going on all these
amazing films and then there was hip hop, right, so
we were like, how does all of this make sense together?
(10:24):
And then Jonasa Van Meter got a call. He's a
white gay journalist, and he got a call to be
the utter in chief. A Vibe, Time Ink and Time
Warner had emerged. They were starting new properties. They went
to Quincy Jones and said, hey, would you like to
start a magazine that was related to music? What would
(10:45):
it be? And he wanted to tap into black music
specifically hip hop and R and B at the time
was really vibrant as well, and so he and Russell Simmons,
which I just found out recently was part of the
original story worked this. I had this idea to do
this magazine. Russell ends up parting ways with Quincy. Quincy
(11:08):
stays on and Vibe was born.
Speaker 4 (11:19):
As we were facing increasing levels of violence, fascist repression,
and censorship. I find strength and knowing that people continue
to make art right and create even in the hardest times.
It is truly the source of how we heal, how
we resist, and most important, how we survive. Someone I
interviewed on the show really summed.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Up this idea for me.
Speaker 8 (11:39):
Black people have never ever depended on the so called
mainstream right to support us.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
That's why we are great.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
That's Erika Alexander.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
I was obsessed with her on Living Single and her
character Max, and it was completely unreal to talk to
her on the show.
Speaker 8 (11:58):
We are the greatest coach makers in world history, the
thirteen percent African Americans because Louis Armstrong the Orphan, wasn't
asking anybody how to play music.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
He played his music in his head. That's jazz.
Speaker 8 (12:13):
He played where he was in New Orleans, and you
ask those people from Mahelia Jackson to you know, country music,
to rap, to rock and roll, to you know, everything,
every genre of music, even punk rock.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
You know, coming out of Detroit.
Speaker 8 (12:28):
Did any of those people ask for permission or were
they expecting to be played on so called white stations?
But the young people found him, and so to me,
African American music is the true source of American power
because and I say not music meaning our culture, everything,
because everything, because people look at us and they gauged
(12:51):
themselves on how we are treated or what we are
promoting in the world. And so I'm really proud of that.
And I'm also proud that the white and black and
brown children of America, now that's their music. They can
claim it. It's theirs. They grew up with it. It's
part of their DNA now. But not to be forgotten,
the African Americans, blood and bone and sweat that got it,
(13:14):
not because anyone supported them or gave them money.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
It's because we had to.
Speaker 8 (13:17):
It's all we had was access to our own creativity
is one thing they couldn't take from us. And look
what extraordinary things we've done with it.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Welcome back to fighting words.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
On the show today where revising some of my favorite
conversations from this year.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Here's Erica Alexander again. You did American Fiction.
Speaker 4 (14:07):
You know, the movie does amazingly well, and a new
generation of people were being introduced to Erica Alexander.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
What do you feel it was?
Speaker 4 (14:17):
Is it like a reintroduction allowed me to reintroduce myself,
as Jay was saying, and what has that experience been like?
Speaker 8 (14:25):
I think it's wonderful that if you're able to in
different times in your life for your I'll just say
your fire to catch heat again, it's there.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Yeah, you know, And then the least I love it.
Speaker 8 (14:38):
I love that and people noticed that, oh look, you know,
she's burning brightly. You know.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
Uh.
Speaker 8 (14:44):
But it was at the time where because I was
dark and nappy headed, it wasn't gonna move.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
They weren't hiring anybody like us.
Speaker 8 (14:50):
And it's still like that to some to some level,
so I had to wait for a lot of things
to change. I think that there's a thing that I
call black inertia because we know who's been doing good work,
and yet all that time, I could have been hired
solely by black productions, and I wasn't you know. And
(15:12):
these are people who know what I'm capable of. So
even though these black directors came, it's like they were
of a certain caliber. And maybe it was people not
thinking they could approach me and put me in certain things.
I don't know, Maybe that's good. I don't want to
be in something that is not up to standard. And
that's not me being snotty. That's just what it is.
I worked really hard to come in and do the
(15:32):
work at whatever level. But all I know is now
Alicia Harris in her movie is God is these amazing
writers have now taken the stage. And before then they
could not get in because there were a ton of
people being let in that were not that good.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
I'll just be honest.
Speaker 8 (15:50):
They weren't, but they were popular because they wrote what
type of black pathology people wanted to see. And so
I was out side of that. And so I'm looking
at again black writers. You mentioned to great Tony Morrison, Yes,
you know who. By the way, they didn't want to
give her an award, and then she got the Nobel
Peace Brize. I mean, right, that's amazing, right.
Speaker 4 (16:18):
Tony Morrison. She was mentioned more than once on the show.
And if you know me, you know how much I
love Tony Morrison. I even have a quote of her
tattooo mynt Martin. Well, I got to learn part of
her career that.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Is not well known. I spoke to Dana A.
Speaker 4 (16:33):
Williams, a professor at Howard University who recently wrote a
book about Tony Morrison's career as an editor. She was
actually the first woman of color to be senior editor
at Penguin Random House. Here's a little excerpt from my
conversation with Dana.
Speaker 9 (16:47):
There's so much that we can know about Tony Morrison.
I was fortunate enough to have interacted with her over
the years, both formally through interviews and then informally be
because my mentor was one of her closest friends. And
by all accounts, now this isn't to say at all
that she was not like most people, where there were
(17:08):
times when she wanted to be doing something else other
than talking to me, and it was clear, but by
and large, she was incredibly generous with her time and
her spirit, in part because I was kind of surprised
she was so invested in this project, in wanting people
to know about the editorship. I mean her eyes would
light up and she's like, you know, that was really
hard work, and nobody talks about it.
Speaker 4 (17:30):
And what was the publishing landscape like at the time
when Tony Morrison was an editor.
Speaker 9 (17:35):
I think it had begun to change from a male
dominated industry to one where there were more women involved.
I don't know that it was intentional, but it corresponded
to some degree with the women's movement where more women
were working now. Of course, and Morrison says this, and
we all know this. Black women never had the luxury
of not working. So this kind of labor movement towards
(17:57):
making space for people to work out side of the
home was really one that was relegated to a white
women of a certain class too, because working class white
women also worked, especially after the war. But what was
different then, as it was even transitioning to more women
taking more roles, and to be clear, these were not
the execs. The execs still were white men. More women
(18:21):
working in editing, in copy editing and in the office
and other roles. But at Random House at the time
that she was there, she was the only black editor
there For many years.
Speaker 7 (18:34):
Before she was there, Charles Harris was there.
Speaker 9 (18:36):
He had come from Double Day, was at Random House
for some years and then moved on to Howard University
Press to found the press and to found the Publishing Institute.
So I would say easily seventy percent of the black
people who are in publishing now came through that publishing
institute in some way.
Speaker 7 (18:54):
If they didn't, their mentors did.
Speaker 9 (18:56):
The landscape overall, too, was a little bit different at
Random House than it was at other places. Random House
would allow its editors to take a book or manuscript
to its editor in chief and make the case for
the book, and the editor in chief could say, yep,
pursue or Nope, I don't see how, or I don't
see why, I don't see justification. I don't see cause
(19:18):
bring sales in because I'm not yet convinced. Whereas at
other houses you had to sit around with other editors
to make the decision about what.
Speaker 7 (19:26):
Got picked up.
Speaker 9 (19:27):
And imagine what it's like if you're Marie Brown at
Doubleday and you're the only black woman in the room
of twelve fifteen editors and you're trying to convince someone
to acquire a book, and everybody just says, no, we
don't see it. So there was a certain luxury, certainly
that Morrison had at random House that also made her
own personality and her gravitas a big part of how
(19:49):
she was able to achieve so much and how she
was able to publish writers that did not have established
careers already. She really was finding and she didn't like
to use discover because she got in a little bit
of trouble about that with Henry Dumas, where some other
folks were saying like, oh so now you discovered, and
obviously like She's like, I didn't discover anything, but she
(20:10):
ushers in to print writers who had not been published before.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
What kind of editor was Tony Morrison.
Speaker 4 (20:23):
I mean she was so profound, you know, with all
of her own writings and everything, but I would imagine
she brought that ancestral awareness. It was like she had
been here before. I always like, anytime I think of her,
I'm like, she was here before. I don't know how,
but she did seem to know everything from before and
was able to put it with us today.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
What was she like as an editor?
Speaker 9 (20:43):
It was very based on writer, but without fail she
was tough. Okay, she could be gentle, but tough depending
on the disposition of the person. She could be sassy
and sharp if you were nasty and raised up on her.
I remember, I'm thinking especially with someone who showed up
(21:04):
in her office unannounced and declared that she didn't know
what she was doing. And she says, listen, I can't
be strong armed. It makes me disagreeable. I mean, just
like just very straightforward. But then there were other times
when she was incredibly nurturing. We all know Gail Jones
and her persona and her unwillingness to do press, and
we know that authors sell books. The books on sell themselves,
(21:26):
so she made all the space in the world that
Gail Jones needed to promote Gail Jones's work and to say, listen,
don't worry about that, don't worry about this. There are
these interesting moments when she's working more for the author,
I think than she is for Random House. So at
one point, when she tries to get Gail Jones's contract
(21:47):
for books two and three and her editor in chief
won't agree to the price point that she thinks is reasonable,
Morrison goes and tell Gail Jones like, at this point,
I think you might need.
Speaker 7 (21:57):
To get an agent.
Speaker 9 (21:58):
And she had told her before, like, I don't think
you need to get an agent. The agent would take
a percentage of your money. I've already essentially acquired the book,
so the works that the agent would have done to
get someone to buy the book, right, and we'll talk
about it whenever. And then she's like, girl, you better
get an agent too, because they're not giving you what
I think that you deserve. And if you had an agent,
they would make the case for you in a different way.
Speaker 7 (22:21):
And it was complicated again because they.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Were aware, the firm was aware, and Gail.
Speaker 7 (22:25):
Jones isn't going to promote these books.
Speaker 9 (22:26):
Caricadora had done really well as Gail Jones's first novel,
critically just okay in terms of its sales, but it
had made a splash. So when it came time for
Eva's Men and White Rat, when they were hedging their bets,
Morrison was clear, I better get on the other side
of this as well.
Speaker 7 (22:44):
I'll do both of these.
Speaker 9 (22:45):
And I think also she was clear about author editor relationships,
so there were times when she had these conflicts with
her writers and it was simple for her. She's like,
all right, now that we've gotten that over with, and
our author editor relationship has been sufficiently baptized.
Speaker 7 (23:04):
Let's get on with the business of publisher of this book.
Speaker 6 (23:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (23:07):
Yeah, So they didn't take it personally.
Speaker 9 (23:09):
Unfortunately, there was a social media because there were some
correspondences between her and June Jordan that if they those
had hit.
Speaker 7 (23:14):
The street it might have been ugly. But even then,
you know, even then, Morrison was nice.
Speaker 9 (23:19):
She was like, you know, I really admired the work
that you're trying to do, and I'm sorry that this
isn't going to work out.
Speaker 4 (23:27):
Well, that's all for today. Thank you to all who
listened to Fighting Words this year. Happy holidays, and I'll
see you in the new year. Fighting Words is production
of iHeart Podcasts in partnership with Best's Case Studios. I'm
(23:48):
Georgian Johnson. This episode was produced by Charlotte Morley as
That Can. Producers are myself and Tweaky p Ggar Song
with Adam Pinkins and Brick Cats for Best Case Studios.
The theme song was written and composed by cole Vos
Bambianna and myself. Original music by Colevas. This episode was
(24:08):
edited and scored by Max Michael Miller. Our Heart team
is Ali Perry and Carl Ketel following Rap Fighting Words.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
Wherever you get your podcast
What's good. We're ready to fight. I'm ready to fight?
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Is that what I thought it was?
Speaker 3 (00:04):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (00:04):
This is fight worse? Okay, I put the hammer back.
Speaker 4 (00:11):
Welcome to Fighting Words. Today, we're doing something a little different.
As the show is coming to an end, we're looking
back at some of my favorite conversations I've had on
the podcast. My initial reasoning for starting this podcast was
because I wanted to utilize my voice and utilize my
platform to have more open and honest conversations about what
(00:33):
is going on in the world around us from some
of the people who are the leaders, the movers and
shakers of the world.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Singing in them heavy handed with the world. Take a super.
Speaker 5 (00:48):
Branded and you spoke your guy, you know.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
What the plan is, or became a Latin you know
when to understand me.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
My name is George M.
Speaker 6 (00:56):
Johnson.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
I am the New York Times best selling author.
Speaker 4 (00:58):
Of the book All Boys Aren't Blue, which is the
number one most challenged book in the United States. This
is Fighting Words, a show where we take you to
the front lines of the culture wars with the people
who are using their words to make change and who
refuse to be silenced. One thing that was really important
(01:20):
for me was to use my platform to honor black
and queer elders.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
And I say that as someone who has been called
an elder myself.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
So it made sense for me to start the show
with Darnell Moore, my friend, a mentor, and one of
my first editors. I know what you've done for me.
I think I actually know what you've done for a
lot of folks. What is it that continues to give
you the purpose driven life to be such a a
(01:50):
thought leader in your own right, but also such a
connector to make sure that those who are coming after
you have opportunities that they may not even see for themselves.
Speaker 5 (02:00):
I came up in a generation. I was born in
seventy six, so you have a right to call me old.
It's all good. I got gray in my beard right,
and so the generation of black gay men who were
to be my mentors, folks who were to be my
big brothers, were pretty much a good Many of them
(02:20):
were taken.
Speaker 7 (02:21):
By the HIV and AIDS epidemic.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
They left early.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
You know.
Speaker 5 (02:26):
I grew up in a city right across from Philly,
which is where Joseph Bean was walking the streets. I
wasn't far from DC growing up in Camber, New Jersey,
which is where Essex Henfield was right. Those are the
folk whose works resonate with me so much today, but
whose works also haunt me because they left here early.
(02:48):
So coming up really wanting direction and examples for how
I might not only sort of learn how to sort
of write a life on a page, a black queer
life from the page, but also like what it meant
to just to be a black boy growing up in
this world, Like I didn't have those elders to talk to.
(03:08):
And by the time I made it to the streets
thirteen Streets specifically in Philly when I was super young, eighteen,
you know, so many of the generation that was in
the same sort of in the same age bracket of mind,
they were also dying around me as in like quick succession.
So I've always been, I think, haunted by the ghost
(03:30):
of accumulated loss. And if you think about it, there
were a whole bunch of black kids who lacked black, queer,
trans non binary mentors because an epidemic that the government
woefully ignored took them away from us, right, So what
(03:52):
that meant for me is that I became very adamant
about making sure that I could give to those that
were coming up alongside of me the very thing that
I desired and didn't always receive.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
I also had the privilege of interviewing the legendary author Sapphire,
who also lost many of her friends to AIDS and
wrote the incredibly.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Powerful novel Push.
Speaker 4 (04:27):
Push is the story of a young African American girl
in Harlem who finds a way to heal from trauma
through writing and reading. Here's Sapphire telling me how the
book came to be.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
For me. Push was a very political text. I was
in the I was in the middle of the AIDS epidemic.
I was a dancer, I was out there, I was
on the street and everything.
Speaker 7 (04:47):
So I remember the first person we knew who died
of AIDS was a Hispanic woman.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
Hear about, you know, female skying of AIDS. All the
energy went us that this was a white male phenomena.
And of course the numbers, the grand death pole has
been black. Yes, but still when you think of December one,
World Age Day, you think of white down town. So
that was on my back and I just will never
(05:17):
forget that girl. A girl in my class stood up
and said, look, I'm having trouble getting my azt and act.
It was a bad anti viral drug that has been
replaced as miracle drugs. But it was all that we
had at the time. Yeah, and it was it was
being rationed out and being withheld. And these young black
(05:41):
girls were having trouble getting the drunk so they would
have to go down and worry a social work or whatever.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
But this was happening in front of me.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
You know what I mean. And then my friends the
dance community, see, they weren't writing poems about their fate,
they were just dying. Where oh all that type of thing,
and the demonization of people who had it. People didn't
want to touch people. We did not get at of
the education above fifty ninth Street. All the money was
(06:12):
being sent down to the gay men's health crisis, which
was almost ninety nine percent white at that time, because
they had the resource, they knew how to grant rite,
they had institutions already set up, and where the education
was needed was uptown, the Bronx all of that, and
that was not where the money was going, you know.
So all of that was just had just blown my mind.
(06:37):
And I was over worked because I was poverty stricken.
So I would teach from like nine in the morning
to twelve. I would take a break and I would
come back and I would teach night school. So I
didn't have a lot of time. And then I wrote
a poem for one of these downtown magazines and I
won a thousand dollars prize.
Speaker 7 (06:55):
Wow, and that was like, that.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Was like gig, you know, before inflation, because that cave
that my rent. That won't that won't gross. Now that
came rent. That gave my rent for the summer. So
instead of teaching summer school, I started to work on Push.
So that little bit of money and a little bit
(07:19):
of heart allowed me to start start writing the book,
and the rest is history.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
One of my favorite conversations this year was with the
mil Wilbkin, the founder of Vibe and the genius behind
some of the magazine's most famous covers, including my favorite,
Destiny's Child as the Supremes. I asked the Mill about
the origin story of Vibe, and, like all good ideas,
it started at a party. A lot of people, including myself.
We grew up on the iconic Vibe magazine, which you
(08:11):
are one of.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
The founders of.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
Yes, so could you just tell us about, like where
that idea even came from, because we are talking about
nineteen ninety three. We are talking about a really really
big booming era of music, Black music, R and B
music specifically, How did the idea of we need a
magazine to capture this, Where did.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
That come from?
Speaker 6 (08:33):
So the great origin story of Vibe is that it
was literally started by a group of friends. We all
worked in magazine publishing. We all loved music. We were
partying and staying out all night. We loved fashion, we
loved everything that was fierce. But most importantly, we loved
(08:55):
being gay and being able to express ourselves. And we're
very clear that gay co clture was the epicenter of everything.
Was the inflection point, was the inspiration, was the turn up,
was the blueprint. So we used to go to I'll
tell you the real story we used to go to
We would go out every Saturday night. We would go
(09:16):
to the Sound Factory. So we'd start at ten eighteen
or the Roxy. Then we would go to the Sound
Factory and then we would end up at the wee
hours of the morning when New York was fab and
go back to Jonathan Van Meter's house and we would
order breakfast and have coffee and just kind of have
all these ideas and what we saw and who we saw,
(09:38):
which house was turning it harder, and like all these
things were happening on the dance floor, and we were like,
we need our own magazine, Like we literally need a
magazine to catalog all of this energy that's happening. So
really important time in history too, because the late eighties,
early nineties, so we were coming out of the crack epidemic.
(10:01):
We are in the middle of the AIDS crisis. House
music and safe spaces were really really important for the
black community and the black LGBTQ plus communities, and there
was just a lot of energy going on all these
amazing films and then there was hip hop, right, so
we were like, how does all of this make sense together?
(10:24):
And then Jonasa Van Meter got a call. He's a
white gay journalist, and he got a call to be
the utter in chief. A Vibe, Time Ink and Time
Warner had emerged. They were starting new properties. They went
to Quincy Jones and said, hey, would you like to
start a magazine that was related to music? What would
(10:45):
it be? And he wanted to tap into black music
specifically hip hop and R and B at the time
was really vibrant as well, and so he and Russell Simmons,
which I just found out recently was part of the
original story worked this. I had this idea to do
this magazine. Russell ends up parting ways with Quincy. Quincy
(11:08):
stays on and Vibe was born.
Speaker 4 (11:19):
As we were facing increasing levels of violence, fascist repression,
and censorship. I find strength and knowing that people continue
to make art right and create even in the hardest times.
It is truly the source of how we heal, how
we resist, and most important, how we survive. Someone I
interviewed on the show really summed.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Up this idea for me.
Speaker 8 (11:39):
Black people have never ever depended on the so called
mainstream right to support us.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
That's why we are great.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
That's Erika Alexander.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
I was obsessed with her on Living Single and her
character Max, and it was completely unreal to talk to
her on the show.
Speaker 8 (11:58):
We are the greatest coach makers in world history, the
thirteen percent African Americans because Louis Armstrong the Orphan, wasn't
asking anybody how to play music.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
He played his music in his head. That's jazz.
Speaker 8 (12:13):
He played where he was in New Orleans, and you
ask those people from Mahelia Jackson to you know, country music,
to rap, to rock and roll, to you know, everything,
every genre of music, even punk rock.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
You know, coming out of Detroit.
Speaker 8 (12:28):
Did any of those people ask for permission or were
they expecting to be played on so called white stations?
But the young people found him, and so to me,
African American music is the true source of American power
because and I say not music meaning our culture, everything,
because everything, because people look at us and they gauged
(12:51):
themselves on how we are treated or what we are
promoting in the world. And so I'm really proud of that.
And I'm also proud that the white and black and
brown children of America, now that's their music. They can
claim it. It's theirs. They grew up with it. It's
part of their DNA now. But not to be forgotten,
the African Americans, blood and bone and sweat that got it,
(13:14):
not because anyone supported them or gave them money.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
It's because we had to.
Speaker 8 (13:17):
It's all we had was access to our own creativity
is one thing they couldn't take from us. And look
what extraordinary things we've done with it.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Welcome back to fighting words.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
On the show today where revising some of my favorite
conversations from this year.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Here's Erica Alexander again. You did American Fiction.
Speaker 4 (14:07):
You know, the movie does amazingly well, and a new
generation of people were being introduced to Erica Alexander.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
What do you feel it was?
Speaker 4 (14:17):
Is it like a reintroduction allowed me to reintroduce myself,
as Jay was saying, and what has that experience been like?
Speaker 8 (14:25):
I think it's wonderful that if you're able to in
different times in your life for your I'll just say
your fire to catch heat again, it's there.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Yeah, you know, And then the least I love it.
Speaker 8 (14:38):
I love that and people noticed that, oh look, you know,
she's burning brightly. You know.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
Uh.
Speaker 8 (14:44):
But it was at the time where because I was
dark and nappy headed, it wasn't gonna move.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
They weren't hiring anybody like us.
Speaker 8 (14:50):
And it's still like that to some to some level,
so I had to wait for a lot of things
to change. I think that there's a thing that I
call black inertia because we know who's been doing good work,
and yet all that time, I could have been hired
solely by black productions, and I wasn't you know. And
(15:12):
these are people who know what I'm capable of. So
even though these black directors came, it's like they were
of a certain caliber. And maybe it was people not
thinking they could approach me and put me in certain things.
I don't know, Maybe that's good. I don't want to
be in something that is not up to standard. And
that's not me being snotty. That's just what it is.
I worked really hard to come in and do the
(15:32):
work at whatever level. But all I know is now
Alicia Harris in her movie is God is these amazing
writers have now taken the stage. And before then they
could not get in because there were a ton of
people being let in that were not that good.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
I'll just be honest.
Speaker 8 (15:50):
They weren't, but they were popular because they wrote what
type of black pathology people wanted to see. And so
I was out side of that. And so I'm looking
at again black writers. You mentioned to great Tony Morrison, Yes,
you know who. By the way, they didn't want to
give her an award, and then she got the Nobel
Peace Brize. I mean, right, that's amazing, right.
Speaker 4 (16:18):
Tony Morrison. She was mentioned more than once on the show.
And if you know me, you know how much I
love Tony Morrison. I even have a quote of her
tattooo mynt Martin. Well, I got to learn part of
her career that.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Is not well known. I spoke to Dana A.
Speaker 4 (16:33):
Williams, a professor at Howard University who recently wrote a
book about Tony Morrison's career as an editor. She was
actually the first woman of color to be senior editor
at Penguin Random House. Here's a little excerpt from my
conversation with Dana.
Speaker 9 (16:47):
There's so much that we can know about Tony Morrison.
I was fortunate enough to have interacted with her over
the years, both formally through interviews and then informally be
because my mentor was one of her closest friends. And
by all accounts, now this isn't to say at all
that she was not like most people, where there were
(17:08):
times when she wanted to be doing something else other
than talking to me, and it was clear, but by
and large, she was incredibly generous with her time and
her spirit, in part because I was kind of surprised
she was so invested in this project, in wanting people
to know about the editorship. I mean her eyes would
light up and she's like, you know, that was really
hard work, and nobody talks about it.
Speaker 4 (17:30):
And what was the publishing landscape like at the time
when Tony Morrison was an editor.
Speaker 9 (17:35):
I think it had begun to change from a male
dominated industry to one where there were more women involved.
I don't know that it was intentional, but it corresponded
to some degree with the women's movement where more women
were working now. Of course, and Morrison says this, and
we all know this. Black women never had the luxury
of not working. So this kind of labor movement towards
(17:57):
making space for people to work out side of the
home was really one that was relegated to a white
women of a certain class too, because working class white
women also worked, especially after the war. But what was
different then, as it was even transitioning to more women
taking more roles, and to be clear, these were not
the execs. The execs still were white men. More women
(18:21):
working in editing, in copy editing and in the office
and other roles. But at Random House at the time
that she was there, she was the only black editor
there For many years.
Speaker 7 (18:34):
Before she was there, Charles Harris was there.
Speaker 9 (18:36):
He had come from Double Day, was at Random House
for some years and then moved on to Howard University
Press to found the press and to found the Publishing Institute.
So I would say easily seventy percent of the black
people who are in publishing now came through that publishing
institute in some way.
Speaker 7 (18:54):
If they didn't, their mentors did.
Speaker 9 (18:56):
The landscape overall, too, was a little bit different at
Random House than it was at other places. Random House
would allow its editors to take a book or manuscript
to its editor in chief and make the case for
the book, and the editor in chief could say, yep,
pursue or Nope, I don't see how, or I don't
see why, I don't see justification. I don't see cause
(19:18):
bring sales in because I'm not yet convinced. Whereas at
other houses you had to sit around with other editors
to make the decision about what.
Speaker 7 (19:26):
Got picked up.
Speaker 9 (19:27):
And imagine what it's like if you're Marie Brown at
Doubleday and you're the only black woman in the room
of twelve fifteen editors and you're trying to convince someone
to acquire a book, and everybody just says, no, we
don't see it. So there was a certain luxury, certainly
that Morrison had at random House that also made her
own personality and her gravitas a big part of how
(19:49):
she was able to achieve so much and how she
was able to publish writers that did not have established
careers already. She really was finding and she didn't like
to use discover because she got in a little bit
of trouble about that with Henry Dumas, where some other
folks were saying like, oh so now you discovered, and
obviously like She's like, I didn't discover anything, but she
(20:10):
ushers in to print writers who had not been published before.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
What kind of editor was Tony Morrison.
Speaker 4 (20:23):
I mean she was so profound, you know, with all
of her own writings and everything, but I would imagine
she brought that ancestral awareness. It was like she had
been here before. I always like, anytime I think of her,
I'm like, she was here before. I don't know how,
but she did seem to know everything from before and
was able to put it with us today.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
What was she like as an editor?
Speaker 9 (20:43):
It was very based on writer, but without fail she
was tough. Okay, she could be gentle, but tough depending
on the disposition of the person. She could be sassy
and sharp if you were nasty and raised up on her.
I remember, I'm thinking especially with someone who showed up
(21:04):
in her office unannounced and declared that she didn't know
what she was doing. And she says, listen, I can't
be strong armed. It makes me disagreeable. I mean, just
like just very straightforward. But then there were other times
when she was incredibly nurturing. We all know Gail Jones
and her persona and her unwillingness to do press, and
we know that authors sell books. The books on sell themselves,
(21:26):
so she made all the space in the world that
Gail Jones needed to promote Gail Jones's work and to say, listen,
don't worry about that, don't worry about this. There are
these interesting moments when she's working more for the author,
I think than she is for Random House. So at
one point, when she tries to get Gail Jones's contract
(21:47):
for books two and three and her editor in chief
won't agree to the price point that she thinks is reasonable,
Morrison goes and tell Gail Jones like, at this point,
I think you might need.
Speaker 7 (21:57):
To get an agent.
Speaker 9 (21:58):
And she had told her before, like, I don't think
you need to get an agent. The agent would take
a percentage of your money. I've already essentially acquired the book,
so the works that the agent would have done to
get someone to buy the book, right, and we'll talk
about it whenever. And then she's like, girl, you better
get an agent too, because they're not giving you what
I think that you deserve. And if you had an agent,
they would make the case for you in a different way.
Speaker 7 (22:21):
And it was complicated again because they.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Were aware, the firm was aware, and Gail.
Speaker 7 (22:25):
Jones isn't going to promote these books.
Speaker 9 (22:26):
Caricadora had done really well as Gail Jones's first novel,
critically just okay in terms of its sales, but it
had made a splash. So when it came time for
Eva's Men and White Rat, when they were hedging their bets,
Morrison was clear, I better get on the other side
of this as well.
Speaker 7 (22:44):
I'll do both of these.
Speaker 9 (22:45):
And I think also she was clear about author editor relationships,
so there were times when she had these conflicts with
her writers and it was simple for her. She's like,
all right, now that we've gotten that over with, and
our author editor relationship has been sufficiently baptized.
Speaker 7 (23:04):
Let's get on with the business of publisher of this book.
Speaker 6 (23:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (23:07):
Yeah, So they didn't take it personally.
Speaker 9 (23:09):
Unfortunately, there was a social media because there were some
correspondences between her and June Jordan that if they those
had hit.
Speaker 7 (23:14):
The street it might have been ugly. But even then,
you know, even then, Morrison was nice.
Speaker 9 (23:19):
She was like, you know, I really admired the work
that you're trying to do, and I'm sorry that this
isn't going to work out.
Speaker 4 (23:27):
Well, that's all for today. Thank you to all who
listened to Fighting Words this year. Happy holidays, and I'll
see you in the new year. Fighting Words is production
of iHeart Podcasts in partnership with Best's Case Studios. I'm
(23:48):
Georgian Johnson. This episode was produced by Charlotte Morley as
That Can. Producers are myself and Tweaky p Ggar Song
with Adam Pinkins and Brick Cats for Best Case Studios.
The theme song was written and composed by cole Vos
Bambianna and myself. Original music by Colevas. This episode was
(24:08):
edited and scored by Max Michael Miller. Our Heart team
is Ali Perry and Carl Ketel following Rap Fighting Words.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
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