October 27, 2025 • 37 mins
Sean Coleman joins George on the podcast to talk about how ballroom and incarceration shaped his life, why he wanted to change the non-profit sector and start Destination Tomorrow, and opening the first city-funded shelter for transgender homeless people.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
I grew Destination Tomorrow from nothing to a multimillion dollar
non for profit. W went from me in a cubicle
towards staff of one hundred and fifty people. I'm one
example of giving the proper resources. I don't even need
a hand. I don't need you to help me. Give
me the money, give me the platform, give me the space.
I'm gonna make it happen.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Sean Coleman is a fierce advocate for trans rights. He
found a Destination Tomorrow, a community center in the Bronx
for LGBTQ plus people, which focuses on economic empowerment. Shawn's
vision is to transform the nonprofit sector and bring back
collective care into the process.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
I wanted us black folks who had been written off,
who had been told that they wouldn't never go amount
to nothing, to find the space that they could be
groomed into something right. But I also wanted to prove
some folks wrong, because a lot of the white folks
that I went to in the beginning didn't think that
this is what you've just seeing. Leborn, I'm sell ain't
(01:02):
gonna do nothing. It's like, oh, that's what you think,
and that model can work. Oh that's what you think,
singing in them heavy handed with the world. Take at
super Brandy and spoke your guy.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
You know what the plan is?
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Or Begama Latin. You know when to seem to see me.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
My name is George M. Johnson.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
I am the New York Times best selling author of
the book All Boys Are in Blue, which is the
number one most challenged.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
Book in the United States. This is Fighting Words.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
A show where we take you to the front lines
of the culture wars, with the people who are using
their words to make change and who refuse to be silenced.
Speaker 4 (01:45):
Today's guest Sean Coleman.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
I want to welcome all to another episode of Fighting Words.
I am here today with mister Sean Ebony Coleman.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
I want to welcome you to Fighting Words.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Thank you. I love the title fire Ready.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
So I ask everybody to start this. How are you doing?
It's a heavy question these days, but.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
I am actually doing really really well. Alut paternity relieve.
My wife had a first boy six weeks ago. Thank you.
So I'm just a really really peaceful space. I've walked
off a lot over the last six weeks. I've tuned
out a lot of the noise something good.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
Good good. We start off to show the same way.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Sometimes I feel our bios precede us or we don't
ever get a chance to explain who we are. So
for our listening audience, who is Sean Ebeny Coleman.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
M I am a father, a husband, a businessman, hustler,
true teller, visionary, I'm so many things. And I happen
to also identify as trans right, so trends masculine, and
I like tell you use that that reference last, because
(03:05):
especially now, folks want to define us just to that
one label and on so many other things.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
So I love that.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
And I was someone who was also raised by my grandmother,
like being born in eighty five, growing up during like
I guess what they would call like the boom of
the black middle class.
Speaker 4 (03:23):
I had two parents who worked a lot right other
worked as.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
The head secretary of the police department nice for nine
to five, then on the hair salon. My dad was
a narcotic detective who worked twelve hour shifts. So grew
up black middle class, but had to be with Grandma
a lot. My grandmother, Danny. Even though I grew up
in Jersey, I grew up with a southern black grandmother,
So I picked up a lot from her. What impact
did being raised by partner your grandmother have on your life?
Speaker 1 (03:51):
I think my grandma. Now I know, my grandma was
my first superhero. Right. My mom had me when she
was fifteen years old, so we kind of grew up together,
which is why my grandmother raised me and my brother.
And she was in her seventies, right, So she showed
me what it was to persevere, what resilience really looked like.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Right.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
But she also defined family for me and how important
family was. And then lastly, she on the couple of
brownstones in Brooklyn, and she used to tell me that
that was the pathway to build wealth, right, home ownership,
and a lot of those things stuck with me. So
she's that family oriented spirit that I have is from
(04:30):
my grandma. She was also raised in the South. She
was from Macon, Georgia, so I still have some of that.
I still have some of those Southern ways, right. But
she taught me the importance of friendship, of family, and
of loyalty. So I got a lot from my grandma.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Yeah, I always tell people that too. Like my grandmother
was very just powerful in my life. Like she was
a superhero and in many ways like she was truly
like my first hero.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
Even as she aged and.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
I was an adult, I still felt like she was
to me like the smartest person I knew. And now
you have a lot of interconnectedness through just various parts
of black communities. I em with one of those being ballroom.
I am also in the ballroom. I'm in the house
(05:19):
of guar song, okay with yes, with my mother Shannon.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Yeah, Tweet is my niece, so we're related in some ways.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Yes, But could you just tell us about your experience
in ballroom, especially as someone who identifies as trans masculine,
Like when did you first get introduced the ballroom and
like how did that.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
Help shape you as a person.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
I thought ballroom out because I was seeking out folks
like me, people that could relate to who I was
becoming or who I was attempting to become. And even
though my grandmother was everything to me, didn't think that
my grandmother would unders saying that right, So, wanting to
be in space with other folks that not just looked
like me, but understood what it was I was going
(06:08):
to And my best friend, Andre Misser. I've known Andre
since I was twelve years old, and Andre and I
in bed Star, Brooklyn, and now we're looking for folks.
We want to find some gay folks to hang out with.
And we were told the best place to go was
to Washington Square Park in the village. So we got
ourselves on the A train and we went down to
(06:29):
Washington Square Park and if you've ever been in the
park at the time, it was almost settled like a
runway if you will, right, And they were folks in
on either side. So there's stupid Libasia and Kim Pindarus
and all of them are I'm Marvin pan Dollars and
all of them are there. And we walked through the
middle and it just read us just like what this
lego on us? And we had no idea what the
(06:50):
hell they were talking about. But for whatever reason, they
befriended us at the same time, right, which is why
when people were like it was shade and shade, shay,
it was some good things. There was some good and
shade at the time. And they took us the tracks.
We hung out with them. I wouldn't advise doing that now,
just going to hang out with strangers, but it took
us to the tracks. We went and hung out with them,
and Stewart asked, you, did we want to be a
(07:12):
part of their house? And I was like, I live
with my grandma, do that I can't be a part
of your house? Like what does that even mean? And
they explained what it was to be in the house
and at the time it was the house of the
Basia and it took us to meet Pepper and I
was drafted, I guess, into the House of Lebasia to walk.
At the time, the category was male illusionist. Wow okay,
(07:33):
so so I was drafted to walk male illusionists was
turned into into butcheralness and that was my introduction into bareroom.
And I think what I love about ballroom to this
day is it gives you the opportunity to unapologetically show
up as yourself and it could switch on a dime
(07:54):
and your friends that are a part of bourroom or
look at you and be like, oh, that's what you're
feeling tonight? Were that what's up?
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Right?
Speaker 1 (08:00):
And you get that encouragement right and it gives you
the ability to now go into the world and do
the same thing. So Sean, it was Sean Labaja. Revlon
Eberde is now the person that can go into a
city council meeting or a meeting with the mayor and
demand what it is that I want. Because if I
stood in front of those and did what I needed
(08:22):
to do with them, I think, Okay, if I stood
in front of them motherfuckers and did what I needed
to do, there was nobody in this world that was
gonna deny me anything. And that was just how I
felt after I was at bowling for twenty some odd
years thirty now. But you can't deny me anything because
I've experienced and faced everything and I faced it head
on and I did it to ballroom with bowm So
I love Bollom to this day. Don't walk anymore, but
(08:44):
I love Bowlom to this day.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Yeah, And how do you feel like that evolution of
ballroom has helped shift culture in a meaningful way? And
I say that from the standpoint of we had polls
on TV, and we had legendary and I think this
period has sustained itself a little bit better where people
at least are able to like have viral moments from
clips at balls now that can lead to opportunities, lead
(09:06):
to brand deals, lead to the commercialization of ballroom. But
I do feel like, you know, because pink capitalism is
pink capitalism, but the field ballroom has still been able
to remain a protected space in many ways that hasn't
been fully.
Speaker 4 (09:22):
Commander co opted being co opted.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
How do you feel about like the current state or ballroom.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
I'm happy that it's evolved out of basements, right because
when I was walking, you'd had to show up at
six o'clock in the morning because you couldn't get a
space at a normal hour. Right, So I'm glad that
this progressed past there, but I'm sad that more of
us aren't able to capitalize on what it truly is
right now, I feel like, especially the monetization of ballroom.
(09:56):
Yeah yeah, these huge, huge s grand and those kinds
of things, and I don't think that we have prepared
our community house members and our houses for what that
type of capitalism actually looks like and how we can
better utilize those resources. Right. So that's the first part,
And then the second part is I've always felt like
(10:17):
ballroom was this movement that could push forward anything that
we could do anything with if we were organized correctly.
And I think this moment, especially this moment in time
ballroom could be so impactful if we were organized one
but had this consistent message throughout. Right, so we'll talk
about just trans rights, for instance, with the hate that's
(10:40):
happening amongst the trans community, and a lot of folks
will be like, no, it's hate amongst the LGBT community. No,
it's not. It's saying amongst the trans community. And I
want to be very specific because just in that language
alone takes away from what the actual issue is. Right,
that trans people and bodies are under attack. Yes, but
if we take a minute and like really really unpacked
that and then figure out what organizing looks like in
(11:03):
ballroom for trans bodies and for the trans community, and
then take that back to your house chapters and your
meetings and those kinds of things, imagine how we now
show up. The part of the problem, in my opinion,
is that they don't see us as a voting block. Right,
Those folks don't blow they they don't vote. They're insignificant.
We can beat up on them because there's no consequence
to beating up on them. Ballroom showing up for that
(11:27):
community or for the trans community their own community shows
you that there are consequences. Yeah, but when do we
organize and do that. We're organizing, get angry about the
smallest things. But your house, sister, your house, and mother,
your house, aunt, you are under attack. Yeah, there's violence
being perpetuated. And every day you hear that dog whistle
that makes it seem like trans bodies are yo. Whatever
(11:49):
you want to do to them, do to them, and
there's no response from us at all. And I feel
like ballroom is a way to be responsive to that
and then still having that same spiriticcle of creativity, of
collaboration because I love polls. But that was our story
to tell, and we could have told it he we
(12:09):
gotten the proper resources, So why are we not, Like
if we can put fifty thousand dollars grand prizes together,
we can't crowdsource and put enough money together to tell
our own story. Come on, now, we gotta stop. We
gotta stop being so small or see this this narrow mindedness.
And then we also have to figure out how we
work together because it's now is just big. It's bigger
(12:31):
than the House of Ebony or the House of Garson.
It is so much bigger than us. We all need
to be working together so that at the end of
the day our community gets what it needs. Yeah, no,
I mean, get off my soapbox now.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
As I stated earlier, you have been in an intersection
of many different issues within our community. Incarceration is also
one of those things that.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
That part of my story.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
It's part of my story.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
As well, which I think it's super important to talk about,
as I feel like there's in a black family that
hasn't been touched by someone who has been incarcerated. My
uncles has been in and out of jail and have
their stories of the hood lives of Jersey.
Speaker 4 (13:17):
But you spent three years in jail.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Yes, right, yes, don't you just tell us about I
did fed time?
Speaker 2 (13:24):
I'm yeah, when, like when this occurred in your life
and how the impact of that, Like, did it shift
your life trajectory in any way?
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Yes, it did. I hustled for a long time. I
had a group. I had a good one. Well when
it was over, it was over. Part of it started
because I wanted to take care of myself. My grandmother
got sick. My mother was in and out, in and
out of puts and never knew my dad. Right, and
I'm the oldest. I have a younger brother who's a knucklehead,
(13:54):
but I love him and he was going through his
own challenges, right, But at the end of the day,
it was just me to take care of me. My
mom was a hustler, right. And the way it started
is I had a friend who worked at the post
office and she went back in the day they literally
your credit card. You take your credit card and just
go swipe. It was no no issues at all, and
(14:15):
we was just swiping and spending and swiping and spending
and having a good old time with it. And then
putgressed into other things, right, I graduated into other things.
I got to a point where we were counterfeiting, and
I could say it now, that's tat. We were counterfeiting
things and gift checks, we replicated credit cards, all kind
of shit. And when I finally got caught, it was
(14:37):
a federal charge. They called us a gay gang, which
was all right, but it was a bunch of us,
and the judge afterwards like, you know, why are you
doing this? I do it to take care of myself,
to be completely honest, like I had attempted to work,
and I went in there, didn't have the full beard,
but I was always masculine presenting. This is being very
(14:57):
clear about that was always masculine presenting and was in
a space and he told me I had to dress
like a woman in order to work there, which is
stupid as fuck, but okay, that your final answer. That's
not who I am. There has to be something else
for me. So the pastime of taking those credit cards
now became a full time job because it was how
I was going to take care of myself. And the
(15:19):
judge got off the bench and he said, you know,
I wish we could have done more for you. And
he was like, you're too intelligent to be doing this.
I wish you could have done more for this. And
what led to that is the final charge I had.
We would counterfeit in military IDs. And the military ID
was so good that the Secret Service came to see
us at one point to ask us who was giving
us these IDs? And we were like, we were making them.
(15:41):
We was like, you aren't naking these and we're like
we were, We were right, and he was like, you're
way too intelligent to be doing this. And the only
thing that stuck, he said, and after that he said
he was giving me thirty six months. I said, you bitch.
But the thing that stuck with me was the fact
that he said I was too intelligent to be doing this. Yeah,
and it's like, I am, I'm way too intelligent to
be doing this. And then I have a daughter. My
(16:03):
daughter is thirty, she just turned thirty eighth.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
And I was on my way there back to jail.
I had done one year and came home and now
on my way back to jail to do thirty six months.
And my aunt was raising her and I had to
make that phone call to let them know that I
was going to be gone, and she just crying, and
I like booked my daughter's heart.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
And at that point it was like, I can never
do this again. And I went to school and got
a little bit of education and came home with the
idea that I was going to be an attorney because
I'm smart enough to do this shit right. And one
of my professors was like, well, you'll never pass. It
was some shit. He told me. I wasn't going to
pass because I'd been locked up before. They'll never admit
(16:43):
you into the bar. And I was working doing some
non for profit work as a peer educator and just
decided I would stay there.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
And that's how I got into nonprofit work. Yes, that's
exactly where I was about to go. I was about
to say house become involved in nonprofit work, but I'm.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
In you, And you know, I think the other thing
about non for POVLT work was, at the time, the
AIDS crisis was like ripping us apart, and there were
some agencies that didn't deem us us being black folks,
us being black black folks that were in ballroom as
worthy enough to be in those spaces, right. So I
(17:22):
wanted to create something that was for us and by us,
that didn't tell folks that they needed all of these
credentials to do the work because and we were getting
paid peanuts while they were getting these large contracts. And
I just wanted to kind of change the way that
non for private work was done and change the way
that my community was looked at. So I decided to
open my own It's destination tomorrow is what I started.
(17:47):
I actually I actually went to work for the Bronze
Community Pride Center, and that was upart my release from
the Fans and needed employment and went there and once
they dashed that dream about becoming an attorney, he was like, well,
fuck it, I'm doing all right here, I'll stay in
this arena, and then eventually left the Bronx Community Prize
(18:08):
Center and started Destination Tomorrow in two thousand and nine
and have been here ever since.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
And now back to my conversation with Sean Conmen, what
about the founding of Destination Tomorrow. You wanted to build
something that essentially fill the gap that was missing. So
what does Destination Tomorrow feel in the New York City area?
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Oh? Everything right? You know a lot of this ship
is performative, right. These agents used to tell you be like,
maybe I do, and you get there and you'd be like,
I didn't want to met your card in a slice
of pizza. I came in here because I needed.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
I used to work us in Washington, DC, so I've
been in the nonprofit.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
But I wanted to like create change. But more importantly,
I wanted us black folks who had been written off,
who had been told that they wouldn't never go and
mount to nothing, to find a space that they could
be groomed into something, right, whether I was them getting
the services that we offer or coming on board in
(19:29):
an entry level position and getting the skills that they
needed so that they could go go forward so your
destination is tomorrow. I'm going to work with you now
to groom you for your tomorrow. But I also wanted
to prove some folks wrong, because a lot of the
white folks that I went to in the beginning didn't
think that, Hello, it's not used to see it, lebron,
(19:50):
she ain't gonna do nothing. It's like, oh, that's what
you think and that model can work. Oh that's what
you think. So I wanted to prove a lot of
folks wrong. And then I also I was hopeful that
the ballroom community will take pride in what we've done
at Destination Tomorrow. Right, you no longer have to go
to those larger agencies who had woked you off before
or I had ignored you, And now they only pay
(20:10):
attention to you because they watch poles and they want
to be down with ballroom now. So now it's like, oh,
we got money for balls, and it's like, y'all even
fuck with us.
Speaker 4 (20:18):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
So I wanted them to recognize I'm not going over
there no more. Come, come, let's build together. So I
wanted I wanted it to be that sense of pride,
And then I want Destination Tomorrow to be almost like
a McDonald's or you go to McDonald's and you get
a big knac you don't even gott to look at it.
You already know what you're getting.
Speaker 4 (20:33):
Yeah, it's true.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
I want wherever you go and you see a destination.
Tomorrow we are opening in DC, were opened in Atlanta,
and we're opening in the Bronx. I want the same
type of service, the same level of care, the same
level of concern, that same consistency across the board, no
matter where you find us.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
And how do you feel about the development of I
would say, like the gen Z population. A lot of
my ballroom kids are gen Z and it is interesting
the conversations every one.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
The fact that they.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Don't know cursive still sends me yo. So that was
like a learning gap. I had to be like, yeah,
oh oh, I bring up the fact that the kids
don't know cursive and people are like, but why is
that important? I said, because that's what the Constitution is
written in. That's what the Bill of Rights is written in.
And so technically, if they ever actually saw the document,
they can't read it. They like they can't read the physical.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
But I think in some ways it's that's done by design, and.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
That's what I was Yeah, Okay, I was like, there's
an anti intellectual movement that has been happening, Like Cursive
wasn't just removed for no reason.
Speaker 4 (21:39):
And then I was like, now you go from the removal.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Of Cursive, which people just saw as nothing big, to
the banning of books to the removal of Jimmy Kimmel
on television, right, And I was like, that's that's really
the pathway of censorship, right, because if people can't read
certain things, you have censored them from even understanding certain
docus events. Yeah, then you remove books so that they
(22:02):
can't read certain and then you take people off the
airs if they can't do these things either. And I
feel like it impacts our use as the artist. So
how do you find yourself working to overcome that?
Speaker 4 (22:15):
With that particular generation especially.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
It's difficult because they've done an amazing job distracting us
and dumbing us down. Right, all of this is intentional.
Everything that they are doing and have done, it's intentional
to get to their and goal. We haven't been as intentional, Right,
We're out here scrolling on Facebook and making TikTok videos.
My grandma used to say, keep your eye on the prize.
(22:41):
Not only do we take our eyes off the prize,
we don't even know what the prize is anymore.
Speaker 4 (22:45):
Right.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
I think for a lot of people, it was just
to be able to say I'm being accepted. Yeah, and
now look what that's gotten us. Like people are being oh,
are you happy about being visible? And visibility matters? And
it's like, visibility matters, but safety is first. So visibility matters,
but it puts your safety at risk? Does it really matter?
And there's so many things that we like that we
(23:06):
don't sit and have discussions about. And I believe we
don't have those discussions because part of it is a
lot of our young people. Oh, they don't want to
hear it. Right, it's not fun, it's not entertaining. But
they've also made us believe that it's just about me.
What does that have to do with me?
Speaker 4 (23:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Yes, And I came up and we were a community.
Speaker 4 (23:26):
Right.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
I'm born in Brooklyn, bed Star. They called me outside
doing something bad. Not only would they tear me up,
they bring me home and lot my grandmother to tear
me up. It wasn't no, don't touch anybody else's kids.
It was a village, and we took care of each other,
and the village is going. So it's even hard to
try to course correct some of these kids without them
feeling like you to tell me what to do. I
do what I need to do. So what's the response,
(23:48):
how do you respond to that?
Speaker 4 (23:49):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (23:50):
My grandu said comming s. You see how I referenced
my grandmother A lot used to say. She said, common
sense ain't so common. Yeah, and in this moment, I
feel like common sense is not common at all. And
then they're not critical things either, but a lot of
us removed.
Speaker 4 (24:05):
The critical faith skills set. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Yeah, And if you come from a broken home, your
mom and dad were too busy doing like just trying
to survive that they can't sit down with you and
give you those skills. And it's removed from the school
and you don't have a mentor where are they're getting
it from. Yeah, And by the time we get them,
it's like, damn, I can't even cost correct this because
you damn there twenty and then your mind you've grown. Yeah,
(24:30):
so it's difficult. Doesn't mean we won't. We're going to stop.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
I think that's why your work is important, you know,
somebody has to do that, continue to try someone even
the hope of a tomorrow, because I think that's what
I see too, is like this disenfranchisement of like them
dreaming beyond the day that they're in of survival.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Yeah, because when you're in survival mode, that's what you know. Yeah. Right,
And guess why this chaos is happening right now from
this administration because they want to keep us in. I
need to do whatever I need to do so to survive.
And that means go under the radar, if that means
be quiet, if that means not show up, I just
need to do so. If you keep a person off balance,
and this is what you get. But I want to
(25:13):
go take one step back. Yeah, I think all of
us have to have this same message. It can't be George,
and it can't be shown just speaking to the ballroom
kids saying no, this is important because of this should
be taught in house meetings. It's just as important as
showing you how to walk runway or you having a
vogue practice. Right. And I wish that we could get
(25:35):
commitments from all of the houses that would then say,
you know what, one meeting every year, we're gonna just
talk about civics and why civics is so important. And
then we're gonna register our folks, our kids to vote,
and then we're gonna volunteer and take all of our
kids to take seniors to the polls so that they
can vote. Like, what is it going to take for
all of us, us old heads that are saying that
(25:56):
we're trying to make sure that the younger generation understans
what's happening? What does it take for us to then
turn around and put our money where I'm outed this
and say, you know what, You're right, and I'm going
to dedicate at least one meeting to making sure that
our kids understand why they need to show up in
this way.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
M powerful, Yes, we need it. We can all be
from different houses, but we are all one community.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
And all one community.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
How do we figure out like that? What are some
of the challenges that you're facing though? Because I know
I have a lot of friends and nonprofit sectors, and
as someone who's worked at a nonprofit who was a CFO,
I remember having to do the RFPs and oh.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
You got the money, you know how to do the money?
Speaker 2 (26:41):
I remember, right like I've written helped write the grants,
having to do the breakdowns of all of the things.
The language that went into the grants happened to use
certain terms, certain terms you couldn't use, especially.
Speaker 4 (26:52):
Nowadays right where you can't use certain terms.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
So what are some of the challenges that like your
organizations are facing, like in this thing, and how are
you overcoming it to ensure that your ors can stay
open to do the work that you're doing.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
I think one of the biggest things that I did
was that my grandma used to say, don't put all
your eggs in one basket.
Speaker 4 (27:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Right, So in the very beginning, I wanted to have
a funding matrix, and we were starting it with local money. Right,
We're gonna get as much local money as we possibly can,
get as much recognition from local government as we possibly can,
and that is going to fuel all of the other. Right,
So we got local money first, corporate local foundation money,
(27:31):
then we got state money. By the time we got
around to trying to get federal money, it was clipped,
which was a blessing for me because well operating budget
maybe was one percent federal money. So when folks started
getting their budgets cut, we didn't have to worry much
about it because we were already operating without federal money.
(27:53):
That was the first thing that we did. I think
the second thing is that we also do for profit
businesses as well, right, and like now they're talking about
trying to snatch people's nonprofit status and those kinds of things,
which is fucking illegal, but whatever, all this shit is illegal, right,
so we could pivot into our business. And then the
third thing is we went into doing housing. Right, so
(28:13):
we run a few shelters, Like we got a lot
of oppressed because we opened the first trans shelter that
was fully funded by the government, one hundred and fifty
best shelter. We're doing a culinary arts program there, social service,
social support there, psychiatrists on staffs four hours. Say, that's
just one. We also do adult shelters and we have
(28:35):
a small set a sized shelter for the trans community.
What's also kept us without having some of the challenges
that some of the others are experiencing. We built really, really,
really good relationships, right, so even when they started to
cut that, I think it was a bit more difficult
(28:55):
to cut those programs that were extremely successful, right that
you could bank on. We're gonna get you some results.
That's not to say that we probably won't have some
challenges at some point, but right now we are not
experiencing the challenges that many of the folks in now
for profit work. We've actually gotten three new contracts since
(29:17):
this started, so we're doing rather well. I don't want
to say them they're not gonna wait. Yeah, but I
think the biggest challenge now is when you think of
the trans community, there are not a lot of black
(29:38):
trans leaders that are out actually front in the center
to kind of like speak on our behalf. And there
are definitely not a lot of black tres masculine folks.
Right when the whole bathroom discussion started, I was like,
when are they going into it? When does black transmit
into the chat? When do we get an opportunity to
start having discussions because I know you don't want to
be in the bathroom with your wife or your daughter.
(29:59):
I know you don't. But at no point were we
ever introduced into the discussion, and we still aren't introduced
into the discussion. So I think the biggest challenge is
having our LGB folks not speak on our behalf and
in some ways getting out of the way. And I
think that's more difficult now because money is involved, right
(30:23):
because if I just lost seven hundred thousand dollars, but
it's trans money that's coming down the pike, or me
getting my face on TV speaking about trans rights will
get me more attention, I may get more donations. I
can't take a step back because I got to make
sure my organization survives. But at the same time, you're
doing a disservice to the black trans community particular. And
I like to say black, I'm blackly black, I'm all
(30:45):
things black all day. So you're doing us a disservice
because no one ever gets an opportunity to hear from us.
It's through your lens, it's through your story, it's through
your idea of what's happening for me right now. So
I think the biggest challenge and just finding those black
trans leaders, whether they are trans women, trans males, or
our non binary SIPs, and introducing them into the discussion
(31:08):
and taking a step of something. So why not make
space so that more folks that truly understand that lived
experience and can speak to it are at the table
having a discussion. So I think that's the biggest challenge.
But I also don't think we're prepared for it because
we've been We've been so divided for so long that
if coach put us in and we're all standing there,
(31:28):
like you got three seconds because you ain't moved, do something,
make some shake, And I don't know who's ready to
make something shake. Yeah, And that's why I wanted to
come on you on your show. Right, I need folks
to see it differently when you think of the trans community,
that there are so many other layers to us that
folks won't even peel back. And I'm hopeful, like as
(31:50):
a black trans male who is successful at doing this
work right, and I think people don't associate that either.
I glue destination Tomorrow nothing to a multimillion dollar non
for profit national non for profit. Right, that's my intellectual property.
Those are things and programs and services and ideas that
I put together as conceptionalized and they gave to my staff.
(32:12):
I went from me in a cubicle to a staff
of one hundred and fifty people. But folks don't highlight that.
Folks won't talk about that. Yeah, right, They're so busy
talking about these other spaces and this is amazing, and
what's being built. But I'm one example of giving the
proper resources. I don't even need a hand and I
don't need you to help me. Give me the money,
give me the platform, give me the space, gonna make
(32:34):
it happen. And there's so many more of me that
are waiting for an opportunity. And again that's part of
what Destination Tomorrow does. We identify the means in the
world and give them an opportunity.
Speaker 4 (32:47):
That was perfect.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
That was perfect.
Speaker 4 (33:18):
And now back to my conversation with.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
Sean Coleman, what are some words that you can give
of encouragement, especially during this time, I've been talking to
just so many people they feel hopeless, and I'm like, yeah,
it's interesting because hopelessness is usually when I do my
best work because I've always used it as a Again,
like I said, if you ever have grandmothers who say
certain things and they're like, yeah, we made away in
no way, I was like, you know, that's a really
powerful saying because if you had no way and you
(33:42):
still made away, no way is really hopelessness, Yeah, you know,
and then you made away. Like my book, the first
book came out of hopelessness after Giovannie Melton was killed
by his father. The young fifteen year old black gay
boy was killed and his father said, I'd rather have
a dead son than a gay son.
Speaker 4 (33:59):
That was like a whole pless moments for me.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
That's that on me, and that's what then sparked the
instoration of me to be like, I have to do
something right, like articles enough, I have to do right,
book right.
Speaker 4 (34:09):
And so it's like, what are some.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Words or anything that you live by that kind of
keep you motivated on the days when you know it's
just like, damn, this is really fucked up a few things.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
The saying that we have a destination tomorrow is don't
panic pivot, right, there's this there's always a way.
Speaker 4 (34:27):
Damn that's going to that's going on my vision board.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Yeah, don't panic pivot. We're gonna think through this. We're
gonna figure out what the indisode is. I think for
me right now is what I've been able to do
is just disconnect because once you realize that it's designed
to make you feel hopeless, that is designed to want
to create fear in you. I think only in recognizing
(34:53):
that can you now take ownership of it? Right, Okay,
I feel this fear? What can I do with it. Yeah,
you turned it into a bo look. Yeah, right, I
turned it into an organization. Yeah, there are ways because
you look, look, black folk, we've always had some kind
of despair. We've always had some kind of art against us,
(35:13):
and we watched our grannies make a way out of
no way. Yeah, so it's ingrained in us. But you
gotta feel it, right. You can't just sit like, ah,
this shit is nothing. No, I am scared, I am fearful,
I am disappointed. Now what. Yeah, And you have to
get to the now what and then get into the
now what. You gotta take a moment, yo. And sometimes
(35:35):
it's a long moment. Yeah, but you gotta take a
moment to reflect and and and and do the work.
Do all of that in the work. I think more
of us really need to do more and more in
the work, like really really just self reflection, Like what's
going on for you? What is coming up with this?
If it's fear, what's the fear? What are you scared of? Right?
We've been threatened by these white these white systems before
(35:55):
we know these systems ain't designed for us. This is
a system that was never meant to protect us, never
meant to serve us, never meant to honor us. So
the fuck are you scared of It's doing what it
was designed to do. It's just doing it out loud. Yeah,
so want you know that? Now what? Because it was
doing it to your granny? She's all right, because you
all right?
Speaker 4 (36:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
So I just think you just gotta take a moment
and let all the noise go. Quiet the noise. I'll
be watching silly shit on two B. I recommend it.
I highly recommend it. Just anything to take your mind
off of it.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Yes, well, everybody, remember don't panic Pivott.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
And it's okay to disconnect. I think that is the
biggest thing. It is okay to disconnect.
Speaker 4 (36:39):
Sure on.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
I want to thank you for coming on Fighting Words today.
This was amazing story. For creating this, it was amazing.
Thank you for continuing to blaze the path forward and
being a possibility model for so many who need to
see something right.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Thank you, and thank you for creating this platform. It's necessary. Yeah,
I appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Fighting Words is a production of iHeart Podcasts in partnership
with Best Case Studios. I'm Georgian Johnson. This episode was
produced by Charlotte Morley. Executive producers are myself and Twiggy
p G Guar Song with Adam Pinkss and Brick Cats
for Best Case Studios. The theme song was written and
composed by cole Vos Banbianna and myself.
Speaker 4 (37:36):
Original music by Cole Boss.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
This episode was edited and scored by Max Michael Miller.
Our iHeart Team is Ali Perry and Carl Ketel following
rap Fighting Words Wherever You get your Podcast
I grew Destination Tomorrow from nothing to a multimillion dollar
non for profit. W went from me in a cubicle
towards staff of one hundred and fifty people. I'm one
example of giving the proper resources. I don't even need
a hand. I don't need you to help me. Give
me the money, give me the platform, give me the space.
I'm gonna make it happen.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Sean Coleman is a fierce advocate for trans rights. He
found a Destination Tomorrow, a community center in the Bronx
for LGBTQ plus people, which focuses on economic empowerment. Shawn's
vision is to transform the nonprofit sector and bring back
collective care into the process.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
I wanted us black folks who had been written off,
who had been told that they wouldn't never go amount
to nothing, to find the space that they could be
groomed into something right. But I also wanted to prove
some folks wrong, because a lot of the white folks
that I went to in the beginning didn't think that
this is what you've just seeing. Leborn, I'm sell ain't
(01:02):
gonna do nothing. It's like, oh, that's what you think,
and that model can work. Oh that's what you think,
singing in them heavy handed with the world. Take at
super Brandy and spoke your guy.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
You know what the plan is?
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Or Begama Latin. You know when to seem to see me.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
My name is George M. Johnson.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
I am the New York Times best selling author of
the book All Boys Are in Blue, which is the
number one most challenged.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
Book in the United States. This is Fighting Words.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
A show where we take you to the front lines
of the culture wars, with the people who are using
their words to make change and who refuse to be silenced.
Speaker 4 (01:45):
Today's guest Sean Coleman.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
I want to welcome all to another episode of Fighting Words.
I am here today with mister Sean Ebony Coleman.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
I want to welcome you to Fighting Words.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Thank you. I love the title fire Ready.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
So I ask everybody to start this. How are you doing?
It's a heavy question these days, but.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
I am actually doing really really well. Alut paternity relieve.
My wife had a first boy six weeks ago. Thank you.
So I'm just a really really peaceful space. I've walked
off a lot over the last six weeks. I've tuned
out a lot of the noise something good.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
Good good. We start off to show the same way.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Sometimes I feel our bios precede us or we don't
ever get a chance to explain who we are. So
for our listening audience, who is Sean Ebeny Coleman.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
M I am a father, a husband, a businessman, hustler,
true teller, visionary, I'm so many things. And I happen
to also identify as trans right, so trends masculine, and
I like tell you use that that reference last, because
(03:05):
especially now, folks want to define us just to that
one label and on so many other things.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
So I love that.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
And I was someone who was also raised by my grandmother,
like being born in eighty five, growing up during like
I guess what they would call like the boom of
the black middle class.
Speaker 4 (03:23):
I had two parents who worked a lot right other
worked as.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
The head secretary of the police department nice for nine
to five, then on the hair salon. My dad was
a narcotic detective who worked twelve hour shifts. So grew
up black middle class, but had to be with Grandma
a lot. My grandmother, Danny. Even though I grew up
in Jersey, I grew up with a southern black grandmother,
So I picked up a lot from her. What impact
did being raised by partner your grandmother have on your life?
Speaker 1 (03:51):
I think my grandma. Now I know, my grandma was
my first superhero. Right. My mom had me when she
was fifteen years old, so we kind of grew up together,
which is why my grandmother raised me and my brother.
And she was in her seventies, right, So she showed
me what it was to persevere, what resilience really looked like.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Right.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
But she also defined family for me and how important
family was. And then lastly, she on the couple of
brownstones in Brooklyn, and she used to tell me that
that was the pathway to build wealth, right, home ownership,
and a lot of those things stuck with me. So
she's that family oriented spirit that I have is from
(04:30):
my grandma. She was also raised in the South. She
was from Macon, Georgia, so I still have some of that.
I still have some of those Southern ways, right. But
she taught me the importance of friendship, of family, and
of loyalty. So I got a lot from my grandma.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Yeah, I always tell people that too. Like my grandmother
was very just powerful in my life. Like she was
a superhero and in many ways like she was truly
like my first hero.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
Even as she aged and.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
I was an adult, I still felt like she was
to me like the smartest person I knew. And now
you have a lot of interconnectedness through just various parts
of black communities. I em with one of those being ballroom.
I am also in the ballroom. I'm in the house
(05:19):
of guar song, okay with yes, with my mother Shannon.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Yeah, Tweet is my niece, so we're related in some ways.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Yes, But could you just tell us about your experience
in ballroom, especially as someone who identifies as trans masculine,
Like when did you first get introduced the ballroom and
like how did that.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
Help shape you as a person.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
I thought ballroom out because I was seeking out folks
like me, people that could relate to who I was
becoming or who I was attempting to become. And even
though my grandmother was everything to me, didn't think that
my grandmother would unders saying that right, So, wanting to
be in space with other folks that not just looked
like me, but understood what it was I was going
(06:08):
to And my best friend, Andre Misser. I've known Andre
since I was twelve years old, and Andre and I
in bed Star, Brooklyn, and now we're looking for folks.
We want to find some gay folks to hang out with.
And we were told the best place to go was
to Washington Square Park in the village. So we got
ourselves on the A train and we went down to
(06:29):
Washington Square Park and if you've ever been in the
park at the time, it was almost settled like a
runway if you will, right, And they were folks in
on either side. So there's stupid Libasia and Kim Pindarus
and all of them are I'm Marvin pan Dollars and
all of them are there. And we walked through the
middle and it just read us just like what this
lego on us? And we had no idea what the
(06:50):
hell they were talking about. But for whatever reason, they
befriended us at the same time, right, which is why
when people were like it was shade and shade, shay,
it was some good things. There was some good and
shade at the time. And they took us the tracks.
We hung out with them. I wouldn't advise doing that now,
just going to hang out with strangers, but it took
us to the tracks. We went and hung out with them,
and Stewart asked, you, did we want to be a
(07:12):
part of their house? And I was like, I live
with my grandma, do that I can't be a part
of your house? Like what does that even mean? And
they explained what it was to be in the house
and at the time it was the house of the
Basia and it took us to meet Pepper and I
was drafted, I guess, into the House of Lebasia to walk.
At the time, the category was male illusionist. Wow okay,
(07:33):
so so I was drafted to walk male illusionists was
turned into into butcheralness and that was my introduction into bareroom.
And I think what I love about ballroom to this
day is it gives you the opportunity to unapologetically show
up as yourself and it could switch on a dime
(07:54):
and your friends that are a part of bourroom or
look at you and be like, oh, that's what you're
feeling tonight? Were that what's up?
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Right?
Speaker 1 (08:00):
And you get that encouragement right and it gives you
the ability to now go into the world and do
the same thing. So Sean, it was Sean Labaja. Revlon
Eberde is now the person that can go into a
city council meeting or a meeting with the mayor and
demand what it is that I want. Because if I
stood in front of those and did what I needed
(08:22):
to do with them, I think, Okay, if I stood
in front of them motherfuckers and did what I needed
to do, there was nobody in this world that was
gonna deny me anything. And that was just how I
felt after I was at bowling for twenty some odd
years thirty now. But you can't deny me anything because
I've experienced and faced everything and I faced it head
on and I did it to ballroom with bowm So
I love Bollom to this day. Don't walk anymore, but
(08:44):
I love Bowlom to this day.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Yeah, And how do you feel like that evolution of
ballroom has helped shift culture in a meaningful way? And
I say that from the standpoint of we had polls
on TV, and we had legendary and I think this
period has sustained itself a little bit better where people
at least are able to like have viral moments from
clips at balls now that can lead to opportunities, lead
(09:06):
to brand deals, lead to the commercialization of ballroom. But
I do feel like, you know, because pink capitalism is
pink capitalism, but the field ballroom has still been able
to remain a protected space in many ways that hasn't
been fully.
Speaker 4 (09:22):
Commander co opted being co opted.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
How do you feel about like the current state or ballroom.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
I'm happy that it's evolved out of basements, right because
when I was walking, you'd had to show up at
six o'clock in the morning because you couldn't get a
space at a normal hour. Right, So I'm glad that
this progressed past there, but I'm sad that more of
us aren't able to capitalize on what it truly is
right now, I feel like, especially the monetization of ballroom.
(09:56):
Yeah yeah, these huge, huge s grand and those kinds
of things, and I don't think that we have prepared
our community house members and our houses for what that
type of capitalism actually looks like and how we can
better utilize those resources. Right. So that's the first part,
And then the second part is I've always felt like
(10:17):
ballroom was this movement that could push forward anything that
we could do anything with if we were organized correctly.
And I think this moment, especially this moment in time
ballroom could be so impactful if we were organized one
but had this consistent message throughout. Right, so we'll talk
about just trans rights, for instance, with the hate that's
(10:40):
happening amongst the trans community, and a lot of folks
will be like, no, it's hate amongst the LGBT community. No,
it's not. It's saying amongst the trans community. And I
want to be very specific because just in that language
alone takes away from what the actual issue is. Right,
that trans people and bodies are under attack. Yes, but
if we take a minute and like really really unpacked
that and then figure out what organizing looks like in
(11:03):
ballroom for trans bodies and for the trans community, and
then take that back to your house chapters and your
meetings and those kinds of things, imagine how we now
show up. The part of the problem, in my opinion,
is that they don't see us as a voting block. Right,
Those folks don't blow they they don't vote. They're insignificant.
We can beat up on them because there's no consequence
to beating up on them. Ballroom showing up for that
(11:27):
community or for the trans community their own community shows
you that there are consequences. Yeah, but when do we
organize and do that. We're organizing, get angry about the
smallest things. But your house, sister, your house, and mother,
your house, aunt, you are under attack. Yeah, there's violence
being perpetuated. And every day you hear that dog whistle
that makes it seem like trans bodies are yo. Whatever
(11:49):
you want to do to them, do to them, and
there's no response from us at all. And I feel
like ballroom is a way to be responsive to that
and then still having that same spiriticcle of creativity, of
collaboration because I love polls. But that was our story
to tell, and we could have told it he we
(12:09):
gotten the proper resources, So why are we not, Like
if we can put fifty thousand dollars grand prizes together,
we can't crowdsource and put enough money together to tell
our own story. Come on, now, we gotta stop. We
gotta stop being so small or see this this narrow mindedness.
And then we also have to figure out how we
work together because it's now is just big. It's bigger
(12:31):
than the House of Ebony or the House of Garson.
It is so much bigger than us. We all need
to be working together so that at the end of
the day our community gets what it needs. Yeah, no,
I mean, get off my soapbox now.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
As I stated earlier, you have been in an intersection
of many different issues within our community. Incarceration is also
one of those things that.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
That part of my story.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
It's part of my story.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
As well, which I think it's super important to talk about,
as I feel like there's in a black family that
hasn't been touched by someone who has been incarcerated. My
uncles has been in and out of jail and have
their stories of the hood lives of Jersey.
Speaker 4 (13:17):
But you spent three years in jail.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Yes, right, yes, don't you just tell us about I
did fed time?
Speaker 2 (13:24):
I'm yeah, when, like when this occurred in your life
and how the impact of that, Like, did it shift
your life trajectory in any way?
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Yes, it did. I hustled for a long time. I
had a group. I had a good one. Well when
it was over, it was over. Part of it started
because I wanted to take care of myself. My grandmother
got sick. My mother was in and out, in and
out of puts and never knew my dad. Right, and
I'm the oldest. I have a younger brother who's a knucklehead,
(13:54):
but I love him and he was going through his
own challenges, right, But at the end of the day,
it was just me to take care of me. My
mom was a hustler, right. And the way it started
is I had a friend who worked at the post
office and she went back in the day they literally
your credit card. You take your credit card and just
go swipe. It was no no issues at all, and
(14:15):
we was just swiping and spending and swiping and spending
and having a good old time with it. And then
putgressed into other things, right, I graduated into other things.
I got to a point where we were counterfeiting, and
I could say it now, that's tat. We were counterfeiting
things and gift checks, we replicated credit cards, all kind
of shit. And when I finally got caught, it was
(14:37):
a federal charge. They called us a gay gang, which
was all right, but it was a bunch of us,
and the judge afterwards like, you know, why are you
doing this? I do it to take care of myself,
to be completely honest, like I had attempted to work,
and I went in there, didn't have the full beard,
but I was always masculine presenting. This is being very
(14:57):
clear about that was always masculine presenting and was in
a space and he told me I had to dress
like a woman in order to work there, which is
stupid as fuck, but okay, that your final answer. That's
not who I am. There has to be something else
for me. So the pastime of taking those credit cards
now became a full time job because it was how
I was going to take care of myself. And the
(15:19):
judge got off the bench and he said, you know,
I wish we could have done more for you. And
he was like, you're too intelligent to be doing this.
I wish you could have done more for this. And
what led to that is the final charge I had.
We would counterfeit in military IDs. And the military ID
was so good that the Secret Service came to see
us at one point to ask us who was giving
us these IDs? And we were like, we were making them.
(15:41):
We was like, you aren't naking these and we're like
we were, We were right, and he was like, you're
way too intelligent to be doing this. And the only
thing that stuck, he said, and after that he said
he was giving me thirty six months. I said, you bitch.
But the thing that stuck with me was the fact
that he said I was too intelligent to be doing this. Yeah,
and it's like, I am, I'm way too intelligent to
be doing this. And then I have a daughter. My
(16:03):
daughter is thirty, she just turned thirty eighth.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
And I was on my way there back to jail.
I had done one year and came home and now
on my way back to jail to do thirty six months.
And my aunt was raising her and I had to
make that phone call to let them know that I
was going to be gone, and she just crying, and
I like booked my daughter's heart.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
And at that point it was like, I can never
do this again. And I went to school and got
a little bit of education and came home with the
idea that I was going to be an attorney because
I'm smart enough to do this shit right. And one
of my professors was like, well, you'll never pass. It
was some shit. He told me. I wasn't going to
pass because I'd been locked up before. They'll never admit
(16:43):
you into the bar. And I was working doing some
non for profit work as a peer educator and just
decided I would stay there.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
And that's how I got into nonprofit work. Yes, that's
exactly where I was about to go. I was about
to say house become involved in nonprofit work, but I'm.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
In you, And you know, I think the other thing
about non for POVLT work was, at the time, the
AIDS crisis was like ripping us apart, and there were
some agencies that didn't deem us us being black folks,
us being black black folks that were in ballroom as
worthy enough to be in those spaces, right. So I
(17:22):
wanted to create something that was for us and by us,
that didn't tell folks that they needed all of these
credentials to do the work because and we were getting
paid peanuts while they were getting these large contracts. And
I just wanted to kind of change the way that
non for private work was done and change the way
that my community was looked at. So I decided to
open my own It's destination tomorrow is what I started.
(17:47):
I actually I actually went to work for the Bronze
Community Pride Center, and that was upart my release from
the Fans and needed employment and went there and once
they dashed that dream about becoming an attorney, he was like, well,
fuck it, I'm doing all right here, I'll stay in
this arena, and then eventually left the Bronx Community Prize
(18:08):
Center and started Destination Tomorrow in two thousand and nine
and have been here ever since.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
And now back to my conversation with Sean Conmen, what
about the founding of Destination Tomorrow. You wanted to build
something that essentially fill the gap that was missing. So
what does Destination Tomorrow feel in the New York City area?
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Oh? Everything right? You know a lot of this ship
is performative, right. These agents used to tell you be like,
maybe I do, and you get there and you'd be like,
I didn't want to met your card in a slice
of pizza. I came in here because I needed.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
I used to work us in Washington, DC, so I've
been in the nonprofit.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
But I wanted to like create change. But more importantly,
I wanted us black folks who had been written off,
who had been told that they wouldn't never go and
mount to nothing, to find a space that they could
be groomed into something, right, whether I was them getting
the services that we offer or coming on board in
(19:29):
an entry level position and getting the skills that they
needed so that they could go go forward so your
destination is tomorrow. I'm going to work with you now
to groom you for your tomorrow. But I also wanted
to prove some folks wrong, because a lot of the
white folks that I went to in the beginning didn't
think that, Hello, it's not used to see it, lebron,
(19:50):
she ain't gonna do nothing. It's like, oh, that's what
you think and that model can work. Oh that's what
you think. So I wanted to prove a lot of
folks wrong. And then I also I was hopeful that
the ballroom community will take pride in what we've done
at Destination Tomorrow. Right, you no longer have to go
to those larger agencies who had woked you off before
or I had ignored you, And now they only pay
(20:10):
attention to you because they watch poles and they want
to be down with ballroom now. So now it's like, oh,
we got money for balls, and it's like, y'all even
fuck with us.
Speaker 4 (20:18):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
So I wanted them to recognize I'm not going over
there no more. Come, come, let's build together. So I
wanted I wanted it to be that sense of pride,
And then I want Destination Tomorrow to be almost like
a McDonald's or you go to McDonald's and you get
a big knac you don't even gott to look at it.
You already know what you're getting.
Speaker 4 (20:33):
Yeah, it's true.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
I want wherever you go and you see a destination.
Tomorrow we are opening in DC, were opened in Atlanta,
and we're opening in the Bronx. I want the same
type of service, the same level of care, the same
level of concern, that same consistency across the board, no
matter where you find us.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
And how do you feel about the development of I
would say, like the gen Z population. A lot of
my ballroom kids are gen Z and it is interesting
the conversations every one.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
The fact that they.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Don't know cursive still sends me yo. So that was
like a learning gap. I had to be like, yeah,
oh oh, I bring up the fact that the kids
don't know cursive and people are like, but why is
that important? I said, because that's what the Constitution is
written in. That's what the Bill of Rights is written in.
And so technically, if they ever actually saw the document,
they can't read it. They like they can't read the physical.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
But I think in some ways it's that's done by design, and.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
That's what I was Yeah, Okay, I was like, there's
an anti intellectual movement that has been happening, Like Cursive
wasn't just removed for no reason.
Speaker 4 (21:39):
And then I was like, now you go from the removal.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Of Cursive, which people just saw as nothing big, to
the banning of books to the removal of Jimmy Kimmel
on television, right, And I was like, that's that's really
the pathway of censorship, right, because if people can't read
certain things, you have censored them from even understanding certain
docus events. Yeah, then you remove books so that they
(22:02):
can't read certain and then you take people off the
airs if they can't do these things either. And I
feel like it impacts our use as the artist. So
how do you find yourself working to overcome that?
Speaker 4 (22:15):
With that particular generation especially.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
It's difficult because they've done an amazing job distracting us
and dumbing us down. Right, all of this is intentional.
Everything that they are doing and have done, it's intentional
to get to their and goal. We haven't been as intentional, Right,
We're out here scrolling on Facebook and making TikTok videos.
My grandma used to say, keep your eye on the prize.
(22:41):
Not only do we take our eyes off the prize,
we don't even know what the prize is anymore.
Speaker 4 (22:45):
Right.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
I think for a lot of people, it was just
to be able to say I'm being accepted. Yeah, and
now look what that's gotten us. Like people are being oh,
are you happy about being visible? And visibility matters? And
it's like, visibility matters, but safety is first. So visibility matters,
but it puts your safety at risk? Does it really matter?
And there's so many things that we like that we
(23:06):
don't sit and have discussions about. And I believe we
don't have those discussions because part of it is a
lot of our young people. Oh, they don't want to
hear it. Right, it's not fun, it's not entertaining. But
they've also made us believe that it's just about me.
What does that have to do with me?
Speaker 4 (23:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Yes, And I came up and we were a community.
Speaker 4 (23:26):
Right.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
I'm born in Brooklyn, bed Star. They called me outside
doing something bad. Not only would they tear me up,
they bring me home and lot my grandmother to tear
me up. It wasn't no, don't touch anybody else's kids.
It was a village, and we took care of each other,
and the village is going. So it's even hard to
try to course correct some of these kids without them
feeling like you to tell me what to do. I
do what I need to do. So what's the response,
(23:48):
how do you respond to that?
Speaker 4 (23:49):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (23:50):
My grandu said comming s. You see how I referenced
my grandmother A lot used to say. She said, common
sense ain't so common. Yeah, and in this moment, I
feel like common sense is not common at all. And
then they're not critical things either, but a lot of
us removed.
Speaker 4 (24:05):
The critical faith skills set. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Yeah, And if you come from a broken home, your
mom and dad were too busy doing like just trying
to survive that they can't sit down with you and
give you those skills. And it's removed from the school
and you don't have a mentor where are they're getting
it from. Yeah, And by the time we get them,
it's like, damn, I can't even cost correct this because
you damn there twenty and then your mind you've grown. Yeah,
(24:30):
so it's difficult. Doesn't mean we won't. We're going to stop.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
I think that's why your work is important, you know,
somebody has to do that, continue to try someone even
the hope of a tomorrow, because I think that's what
I see too, is like this disenfranchisement of like them
dreaming beyond the day that they're in of survival.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Yeah, because when you're in survival mode, that's what you know. Yeah. Right,
And guess why this chaos is happening right now from
this administration because they want to keep us in. I
need to do whatever I need to do so to survive.
And that means go under the radar, if that means
be quiet, if that means not show up, I just
need to do so. If you keep a person off balance,
and this is what you get. But I want to
(25:13):
go take one step back. Yeah, I think all of
us have to have this same message. It can't be George,
and it can't be shown just speaking to the ballroom
kids saying no, this is important because of this should
be taught in house meetings. It's just as important as
showing you how to walk runway or you having a
vogue practice. Right. And I wish that we could get
(25:35):
commitments from all of the houses that would then say,
you know what, one meeting every year, we're gonna just
talk about civics and why civics is so important. And
then we're gonna register our folks, our kids to vote,
and then we're gonna volunteer and take all of our
kids to take seniors to the polls so that they
can vote. Like, what is it going to take for
all of us, us old heads that are saying that
(25:56):
we're trying to make sure that the younger generation understans
what's happening? What does it take for us to then
turn around and put our money where I'm outed this
and say, you know what, You're right, and I'm going
to dedicate at least one meeting to making sure that
our kids understand why they need to show up in
this way.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
M powerful, Yes, we need it. We can all be
from different houses, but we are all one community.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
And all one community.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
How do we figure out like that? What are some
of the challenges that you're facing though? Because I know
I have a lot of friends and nonprofit sectors, and
as someone who's worked at a nonprofit who was a CFO,
I remember having to do the RFPs and oh.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
You got the money, you know how to do the money?
Speaker 2 (26:41):
I remember, right like I've written helped write the grants,
having to do the breakdowns of all of the things.
The language that went into the grants happened to use
certain terms, certain terms you couldn't use, especially.
Speaker 4 (26:52):
Nowadays right where you can't use certain terms.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
So what are some of the challenges that like your
organizations are facing, like in this thing, and how are
you overcoming it to ensure that your ors can stay
open to do the work that you're doing.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
I think one of the biggest things that I did
was that my grandma used to say, don't put all
your eggs in one basket.
Speaker 4 (27:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Right, So in the very beginning, I wanted to have
a funding matrix, and we were starting it with local money. Right,
We're gonna get as much local money as we possibly can,
get as much recognition from local government as we possibly can,
and that is going to fuel all of the other. Right,
So we got local money first, corporate local foundation money,
(27:31):
then we got state money. By the time we got
around to trying to get federal money, it was clipped,
which was a blessing for me because well operating budget
maybe was one percent federal money. So when folks started
getting their budgets cut, we didn't have to worry much
about it because we were already operating without federal money.
(27:53):
That was the first thing that we did. I think
the second thing is that we also do for profit
businesses as well, right, and like now they're talking about
trying to snatch people's nonprofit status and those kinds of things,
which is fucking illegal, but whatever, all this shit is illegal, right,
so we could pivot into our business. And then the
third thing is we went into doing housing. Right, so
(28:13):
we run a few shelters, Like we got a lot
of oppressed because we opened the first trans shelter that
was fully funded by the government, one hundred and fifty
best shelter. We're doing a culinary arts program there, social service,
social support there, psychiatrists on staffs four hours. Say, that's
just one. We also do adult shelters and we have
(28:35):
a small set a sized shelter for the trans community.
What's also kept us without having some of the challenges
that some of the others are experiencing. We built really, really,
really good relationships, right, so even when they started to
cut that, I think it was a bit more difficult
(28:55):
to cut those programs that were extremely successful, right that
you could bank on. We're gonna get you some results.
That's not to say that we probably won't have some
challenges at some point, but right now we are not
experiencing the challenges that many of the folks in now
for profit work. We've actually gotten three new contracts since
(29:17):
this started, so we're doing rather well. I don't want
to say them they're not gonna wait. Yeah, but I
think the biggest challenge now is when you think of
the trans community, there are not a lot of black
(29:38):
trans leaders that are out actually front in the center
to kind of like speak on our behalf. And there
are definitely not a lot of black tres masculine folks.
Right when the whole bathroom discussion started, I was like,
when are they going into it? When does black transmit
into the chat? When do we get an opportunity to
start having discussions because I know you don't want to
be in the bathroom with your wife or your daughter.
(29:59):
I know you don't. But at no point were we
ever introduced into the discussion, and we still aren't introduced
into the discussion. So I think the biggest challenge is
having our LGB folks not speak on our behalf and
in some ways getting out of the way. And I
think that's more difficult now because money is involved, right
(30:23):
because if I just lost seven hundred thousand dollars, but
it's trans money that's coming down the pike, or me
getting my face on TV speaking about trans rights will
get me more attention, I may get more donations. I
can't take a step back because I got to make
sure my organization survives. But at the same time, you're
doing a disservice to the black trans community particular. And
I like to say black, I'm blackly black, I'm all
(30:45):
things black all day. So you're doing us a disservice
because no one ever gets an opportunity to hear from us.
It's through your lens, it's through your story, it's through
your idea of what's happening for me right now. So
I think the biggest challenge and just finding those black
trans leaders, whether they are trans women, trans males, or
our non binary SIPs, and introducing them into the discussion
(31:08):
and taking a step of something. So why not make
space so that more folks that truly understand that lived
experience and can speak to it are at the table
having a discussion. So I think that's the biggest challenge.
But I also don't think we're prepared for it because
we've been We've been so divided for so long that
if coach put us in and we're all standing there,
(31:28):
like you got three seconds because you ain't moved, do something,
make some shake, And I don't know who's ready to
make something shake. Yeah, And that's why I wanted to
come on you on your show. Right, I need folks
to see it differently when you think of the trans community,
that there are so many other layers to us that
folks won't even peel back. And I'm hopeful, like as
(31:50):
a black trans male who is successful at doing this
work right, and I think people don't associate that either.
I glue destination Tomorrow nothing to a multimillion dollar non
for profit national non for profit. Right, that's my intellectual property.
Those are things and programs and services and ideas that
I put together as conceptionalized and they gave to my staff.
(32:12):
I went from me in a cubicle to a staff
of one hundred and fifty people. But folks don't highlight that.
Folks won't talk about that. Yeah, right, They're so busy
talking about these other spaces and this is amazing, and
what's being built. But I'm one example of giving the
proper resources. I don't even need a hand and I
don't need you to help me. Give me the money,
give me the platform, give me the space, gonna make
(32:34):
it happen. And there's so many more of me that
are waiting for an opportunity. And again that's part of
what Destination Tomorrow does. We identify the means in the
world and give them an opportunity.
Speaker 4 (32:47):
That was perfect.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
That was perfect.
Speaker 4 (33:18):
And now back to my conversation with.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
Sean Coleman, what are some words that you can give
of encouragement, especially during this time, I've been talking to
just so many people they feel hopeless, and I'm like, yeah,
it's interesting because hopelessness is usually when I do my
best work because I've always used it as a Again,
like I said, if you ever have grandmothers who say
certain things and they're like, yeah, we made away in
no way, I was like, you know, that's a really
powerful saying because if you had no way and you
(33:42):
still made away, no way is really hopelessness, Yeah, you know,
and then you made away. Like my book, the first
book came out of hopelessness after Giovannie Melton was killed
by his father. The young fifteen year old black gay
boy was killed and his father said, I'd rather have
a dead son than a gay son.
Speaker 4 (33:59):
That was like a whole pless moments for me.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
That's that on me, and that's what then sparked the
instoration of me to be like, I have to do
something right, like articles enough, I have to do right,
book right.
Speaker 4 (34:09):
And so it's like, what are some.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Words or anything that you live by that kind of
keep you motivated on the days when you know it's
just like, damn, this is really fucked up a few things.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
The saying that we have a destination tomorrow is don't
panic pivot, right, there's this there's always a way.
Speaker 4 (34:27):
Damn that's going to that's going on my vision board.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Yeah, don't panic pivot. We're gonna think through this. We're
gonna figure out what the indisode is. I think for
me right now is what I've been able to do
is just disconnect because once you realize that it's designed
to make you feel hopeless, that is designed to want
to create fear in you. I think only in recognizing
(34:53):
that can you now take ownership of it? Right, Okay,
I feel this fear? What can I do with it. Yeah,
you turned it into a bo look. Yeah, right, I
turned it into an organization. Yeah, there are ways because
you look, look, black folk, we've always had some kind
of despair. We've always had some kind of art against us,
(35:13):
and we watched our grannies make a way out of
no way. Yeah, so it's ingrained in us. But you
gotta feel it, right. You can't just sit like, ah,
this shit is nothing. No, I am scared, I am fearful,
I am disappointed. Now what. Yeah, And you have to
get to the now what and then get into the
now what. You gotta take a moment, yo. And sometimes
(35:35):
it's a long moment. Yeah, but you gotta take a
moment to reflect and and and and do the work.
Do all of that in the work. I think more
of us really need to do more and more in
the work, like really really just self reflection, Like what's
going on for you? What is coming up with this?
If it's fear, what's the fear? What are you scared of? Right?
We've been threatened by these white these white systems before
(35:55):
we know these systems ain't designed for us. This is
a system that was never meant to protect us, never
meant to serve us, never meant to honor us. So
the fuck are you scared of It's doing what it
was designed to do. It's just doing it out loud. Yeah,
so want you know that? Now what? Because it was
doing it to your granny? She's all right, because you
all right?
Speaker 4 (36:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
So I just think you just gotta take a moment
and let all the noise go. Quiet the noise. I'll
be watching silly shit on two B. I recommend it.
I highly recommend it. Just anything to take your mind
off of it.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Yes, well, everybody, remember don't panic Pivott.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
And it's okay to disconnect. I think that is the
biggest thing. It is okay to disconnect.
Speaker 4 (36:39):
Sure on.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
I want to thank you for coming on Fighting Words today.
This was amazing story. For creating this, it was amazing.
Thank you for continuing to blaze the path forward and
being a possibility model for so many who need to
see something right.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Thank you, and thank you for creating this platform. It's necessary. Yeah,
I appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Fighting Words is a production of iHeart Podcasts in partnership
with Best Case Studios. I'm Georgian Johnson. This episode was
produced by Charlotte Morley. Executive producers are myself and Twiggy
p G Guar Song with Adam Pinkss and Brick Cats
for Best Case Studios. The theme song was written and
composed by cole Vos Banbianna and myself.
Speaker 4 (37:36):
Original music by Cole Boss.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
This episode was edited and scored by Max Michael Miller.
Our iHeart Team is Ali Perry and Carl Ketel following
rap Fighting Words Wherever You get your Podcast
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