August 26, 2025 • 31 mins
George is joined by writer and editor Mikelle Street. Mikelle tells George about LGBTQ+ subcultures he's been reporting on for years, such as the fetish and leather communities, and how black men navigate these spaces. Mikelle also shares his experience working with iconic fashion stylist, Law Roach, who styles stars like Zendaya and Ariana Grande.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Leather is thought of as this sort of white thing,
and as a result of that perception, often kinky black
men do not participate in community. They participate in king
and fetish, often on an individual level.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
MIKEL.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Street is a writer and editor from South Carolina. He
lives in New York and his work explores the intersection
of queerness, blackness, and aesthetics.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Michel writes about subcultures we're.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Often misunderstood and stigmatized, like the leather fetish and BDSM communities.
His work reminds us that they are often at the
forefront of the fights for our rights.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
The quote unquote, the most deviant amongst us have always
been the first to feel the brunt of lack of rights.
I think he and did to put the world take
a sip of brandy, spoke the guy who know what
the plan is KA Latino. One that understand me.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
My name is Georgi im Johnson.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
I am the New York Times best selling author of
the book All Boys Aren't Blue, which is the number
one most challenged book in the United States. This is
Fighting Words, a show where we take you to the
front lines of the culture wars with the people who
are using their words to make change, and who refuse
to be silent. Is today's guest, Mikel Street. I'm here
(01:37):
today with a good friend, mister Mikel Street. How are
you doing today?
Speaker 1 (01:40):
I'm good. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Yes, thank you for coming on the show. We start
to show off the same way as we do all
of our other episodes. Sometimes people know us from social
media the things that we do in the public space,
but they don't really know who we are. So could
you just let everyone know who is Mikel Street?
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Yeah. I mean to say that I am a writer,
an editor, and a storyteller. I normally am doing work
around blackness, queerness, and art slash fashion aesthetics, and I
think that my best work is generally at the intersections
of those spaces. I'm from South Carolina, the New York mindset.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
I love that. Pretty simple, you know.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
But yeah, I would say a lot of people do
know you for your insightful writing.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
What made you actually get into writing?
Speaker 1 (02:32):
I think that I always wrote and I always read.
My mom told me that she used to read to
me when I was very very young. But I for
as long as I remember, I was a reader and
a writer. I remember in first grade. Actually, my first
grade teacher, the name was Miss Hayward, and we made
these little booklets where we each got to write a
(02:53):
little story and you like stapled the papers together, and
I can remember it. It maybe had like you know,
those big lines with the dotted line in the middle,
and you could write in there, and then every few
pages had like a half a space that was supposed
to be for your drawing, like you could illustrate it.
And so everybody else was obsessed with the drawing. I
was obsessed with the writing, and so like I remember,
(03:15):
actually I would take the paper and take one sheet
and put it over the other one and trace the
line so I would have more lines to write on
instead of drawing. I think I ended up writing like
seven little booklets. And this was in the first grade.
So I was always interested in writing. It's something I've
(03:35):
always done. I moved to New York City in twenty thirteen,
the weekend after my last class in college. I don't
think I had ever visited New York before I moved here.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
I was always very driven to leave, and I apparently
made that very evident to the people around me.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
How has that been for your family? You know, like
has that been tougher on them? And I think a
lot of listeners, especially queer listeners that we have, like
family can be a tree subject in our community. So
what was what is that experience like for you and
your family, because I'm assuming they're still in South Carolina.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Yeah, it's complicated, okay. You know. I think that there's
two sides to look at things always, and I think
that on one hand, where would I have been? How
much further could I have gone if I got to
take advantage of these opportunities, you know, where would I be?
But on the other hand, I also look at it
(04:28):
as in, where would I be if I had been
a sixteen year old thinking I was grown running a street,
you know, not in the same state or city as
my parents. I think about that and the ways in
which my upbringing was quite protected. My parents were quite
(04:53):
strict by some standards, and so I don't know that
I would be the same person with the same amount
of self discipline were it not for that. I'm doing
a lot of reconnect with my family over the past
few years, and my mom was sort of I don't
want to say apologizing, but kind of gearing up to
apologize for, you know, the ways in which we were raised,
(05:17):
just because they were kind of restrictive. And I told her,
I was like, well, you know, I think the other
side of the coin is, as I believe a direct
result of that, I'm quite an independent person. I don't
really get fomo. I don't care if you don't want
to do a thing that I want to do, I'll
go by myself. I don't care that everybody's going to
that party. I'm not going. I don't want to go.
(05:38):
I don't think it's fun, I don't think it's safe,
I don't whatever. I am super independent in that way,
and I think it's because I was always raised with
this idea of, well, they may my kids, so I
don't care what they get to do. I don't care
where they get to go. My parents have realized that
the sword cuts both ways. That the same sort that
(05:59):
they raised me with to be independent and stand alone
and not care necessarily what other people thought. Because of
the person who was paying my bills had rules and
had boundaries and all of those sorts of things. I
now pay my bills. I am not that person, And
as a direct result, I decide who has access to
(06:21):
me when they have that access, I'm not going to
be guilt tripped into seeing anyone or doing anything or
going anywhere. And that is family, friends, or indifferent. And
there's always obviously an immense respect for my family, but
respect does not equate to deference.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
What I love about what you're saying is like, you've
created these boundaries that work for you.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
I have a very specific and slightly nuanced view to
relationships with family, and I think it starts very much
with who you are and what you were willing to
accept and for what. For me, I am at a
place because I've been raised in this way and I
feel so independent that I put very few things above
(07:13):
my own ego and pride and how I feel about
myself and the way that I want to present myself
and all those kinds of things. But I don't think
everybody is that way, and I don't think I think,
contrary to popular belief, everyone doesn't need to be that way.
So I had this friend of mine who was like,
I want to start dressing in this way, and one
of my gay sons actually had started to live in
(07:35):
this way, and they were like, you know, but when
I go home, I know it's going to be a thing.
Should I not go home? Should I wear it? And
I was like, I think you have to determine what's
important to you. And I think if it's important to
you to have this relationship and it doesn't bother you
that much to do this thing for that hour to
(07:56):
have that relationship, and that relationship is more important to you,
then that's a decision. I'm not going to make that decision.
I think it's a decision you have to make and
then feel free to change that later when you decide, Oh,
actually this didn't serve me as much as I thought
it would. So actually I'm not coming to see you anymore.
Like actually it brought up you know, actually I took
(08:16):
off these things to come see you, and now you're
pressuring me, Well, why don't you just dress this way? Anyways?
And I'm telling you while I'm doing this for you,
and you're not appreciating that, and actually that makes me
feel bad about myself. And so actually I'm not doing
this anymore, you know what I mean, like being willing
to say I'm going to try this and if it works,
it works, and I'll do it. But if it doesn't,
I'm not going to do it and being okay with
(08:36):
saying no, I've changed my mind.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Actually, no, that's profile.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
It's funny enough, Like I was like, oh, yeah, we're
gon come here talk about right and would who's And
now back to my conversation with mikel.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Street. You cover a myriad of topics.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
You were not scared to go to the places that
some people, you know, feel are like taboo subjects to
write about or discuss. So the first thing I want
to know is, like, what piques your interest in a story?
What is it for you that sparks the thing that
like I have to write about this.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Well, I'm a super sponge of new stuff and I'm
always thinking about it and connecting it to other things
that I've seen and heard, right, and trying to figure
out what is the thing that isn't being considered here
that explains this thing that we're seeing or gives it
greater context. I'm such a nerd of like so many things.
(09:40):
And one of my small things that I have gotten
into over the past four years is like Chinese Imperial
harem dramas, and I'm like watching all these shows in
Chinese the Imperial Hairm.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
Yeah, and so you've written about like fetish, and you've
written about like sex, like especially within like the queer community,
and you know, like discussing the leather community, yeah specifically
and like race and kink, Like what got you interested
in that that community specifically?
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Yeah, it's just you know, I will say this about
leather right it is it depends on the space and
the community and the da da da da right like,
And one day I hope to write this piece I
wanted for years. I wanted to write a piece about Onyx,
which is like the largest leather club of color. The
thing that I find so often with Onyx members of
(10:30):
Onyx is so many specifically black men, but men of
color at large. We'll say that they were kinky and
into fetish, but thought that they couldn't be involved with
the leather community or the community because they didn't see
anyone like them, and that they would engage in these
things in their homes in private. But it wasn't until
(10:54):
they found Onyx, in whatever form they found it in
that they felt like they could be a part of
the community. And so I see all that to say
people who really do think of it as predominantly white,
and then you get into these spaces. You go to
a mid Atlantic Leather which I think was the.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
First, also known as mall Right.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Which I think was the first one that I went to,
and Onyx has a quite a large present at mL.
And then you see all of these black men walking
around in large groups. They have an annual fashion show,
they do these parties, and for me, it did feel
(11:36):
like home in a way. Leather is thought of as
this sort of white thing, and as a result of
that perception, the often kinky black men do not participate
in community. They participate in king con fetish, often on
an individual level, until they find an organization or group
(11:59):
like ONYX.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
When it comes to like the different pockets of queer communities,
the subcultures, I think about the subcultures of our community,
how like they may be the smaller in numbers, but
realistically what they do is what permeates into the at
large of what our community looks like.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
On the outside.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Yeah, in many ways it could be watered down and
it may not look exactly like that, but it's like, no,
it's someone who in this leather community is what makes
a whole bunch of y'all feel comfortable. In my opinion,
in like a circuit community, and it's, oh, what we
do in ballroom. Let's be very clear, the fashions, the
things that is what makes y'all feel comfortable enough or
even proud enough to even have.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
A red dress run or go to a red dress.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
Like, like, whether you realize it or not, there's a
dot that's being connected to a smaller group in our
community that permeates all the way outside.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Yeah, for a long time I've been interested in my
practice is journalist has been interested in leatherman and drag
which are really two sides of the same coin. But
not only are they two the same coin, as you
can look at them as the two points on the
spectrum of queerness, right, the two opposite points on the
spectrum of queerness, right, which the drag queen is the
(13:18):
embodiment of the gay as the fairy right or the
most feminine form of the gay man is the drag queen.
You know, it gives you camp, it gives you all
of that which are all you know, think of as
as a queer staples. The leather man is the other
end of that archetype, like the sexual deviant, the masculine,
sexual deviant. And I think that those two are the
(13:41):
quote unquote the two extremes of what people's imagination of
what a gay man is. That either you're this leather wearing,
you know, fisting, you know, gay man doing all the
sniffing poppers and you know, blah blah blah blah, you know,
in somebody's dungeon with whips and chains, or you want
(14:01):
to wear a dress. And I think that those are
the two extremes. And I think that's why they interest
me so much, is because to your point, most gay
men fall somewhere in a midst of those, right, It's
very rare that people are one or the other, and
so you can think of yourself kind of on the
(14:22):
spectrum of what that is. And I think that's why
they interest me, particularly when you think about activism and
that kind of work. These people have to be at
the forefront, because it is the most marginalized who feel
the pressures of the margins, the most uniquely right, the
(14:43):
most pointedly right. And so sure, you homonormative gay man
in a monogamous marriage blah blah blah blah, you don't
feel the effects of various things as much as someone
else might write like sure you m nagamus gay man
in this marriage. You might not care that they outlawed
(15:05):
poppers because you don't use poppers. You don't have a
reason to use poppers, whereas maybe a fisting bottom might,
you know what I mean? Like, yeah, So the people
who feel the moves of censorship and in increasing encroachment
on our rights are the people's at the margins. And
so you look at a drag queen and you begin
(15:26):
to see where, you know what I mean, like everything
that's going over with drag queens and trans women and
all that kind of stuff, right like that, we can
see they're encroaching on rights in this way. And even
if it doesn't impact you now, that is clearly not
where it's going to end. And so that's why it's important.
And that's also why these communities have always been at
the forefront, is because they feel it. You know, I
(15:50):
just wrote a story about cruising, and in the process
of researching the story, I found this like super interesting
little tidbit which was days before Stonewall place where drag
queens and hustlers hung out, there was this act of
sort of vigilante justice of there had been a cruising
(16:11):
ground in Queens where gay men would cruise at and
this group of people who lived in the apartments there,
straight men who lived in the apartments there, had gotten
together their own little local police squad and was like
would run the gaze off. And days before stone Wall
they decided that they were just going to cut down
(16:32):
all the trees and all the bushes, and so they
got axes in Queens, which actions in chainsaws, like could
you imagine it in Manhattan? But acaz in chainsaws and
cut down all the trees and all the bushes, and
apparently the police were there and watched them do it
and said nothing. Obviously this is would have been illegal,
but they didn't say anything because it was against gays.
(16:53):
And so I say that to say, like these things
have always been sort of hand in hand. And you
know the quote unquote the most deviant amongst us have
always been the first to feel the brunt of lack
of rights.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
Yeah, and as you said, feel the brunt of the
lack of rights. And also at the front line.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Yeah, yeah, people don't think enough about precedent.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Yes, right, the subcultures did a lot of the work
so that you all could exist, So don't forget about
them when the when the dock is on your door,
because again, these were the people who gave you the
opportunity to even have that type of life trans women
across the board. Right, It's like it's always been the
few who have been able to do that. So I
just love how you kind of broke all of that down.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
You also recently worked on a book with Lord Roach.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
Correct, yes, I did, because we also want to get
into your fashion because you are one.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
You are a fashionable.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Person and as someone who I've seen at the balls
and just in life over the last you know, Michael
is a fashionable person, but I am.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
I think everybody.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
He always wants to know what like law Roach is like,
and I have my own law Road stories that have
all been great. Every single time I met him, it's
been just amazing and the kekey and I remember the
first time, like I actually got to meet him in person,
and I had to give this big speech at the time,
one hundred and like he just like literally like wagged
this thing for me to come over. He was like,
(18:20):
who are you wearing? And who is your stylist? And
I'm not gonna remember who it was I was in
this full leather outfit like couture from Paris, but it
was Shannon Stokes is my stylist. And as soon as
I said he was like, oh, I know Shannon. He
was like h right, and then literally sat down and
we talked that we exchanged phone number, like you know,
like really like he just gets in and yeah, I
(18:41):
mean he's funny, he's brilliant, he's shady, he's all the things. Yes,
what was that experience, like like helping him with that
book how to Build a Fashion Icon is the name
of the book for all those listening.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Yes, so long and I had known each other for
a very long time. A few years after I moved
to New York. My best friend at the time was
laws assistant, and so I first learned about law because
my friend at the time would come sit on my couch.
Both of us will be working from home. I call
all my girlfriends, she heard, and when I say girlfriends,
I mean boyfriends, saying you know, male friends. But whatever, anyway,
(19:11):
we get it. We're supposed to be family here, so
y'all should get it anyway. So she'd be writing all
these emails and I'll be doing my work. And then
she was like, I can't believe that Law just said that,
And I'd be like, girl, you know, what does she say, Son,
I read the email. Both of us are gag. So
that was my introduction to Law was this was you know,
(19:32):
this was twenty fifteen. I would want to say, so
this was still kind of you know, Zindia wasn't like
that girl at the time Zindea was. It was they
were still going through the time that Law talked about,
where people brands would be saying no, and Law would
be going back and forth with these girls like I'd
be gagging anyways, So you know, they were on the
come up. I was also starting my career in fashion journalism,
(19:54):
and so then the opportunity came for me to begin
writing for teen Vogue, and I knew about obviously Law
and Sindeia had a Material Girl campaign. Madonna had that brand,
Material Girl. Sindea was the face of Material Girl, and
so I interviewed Law about that. I feel like that
was like twenty fourteen, actually twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen decade,
(20:15):
so like that was my first time I think actually
speaking to him and like over the phone. And then
a few years later I feel like it was maybe
one or two years later. He styled his first met gala,
which was La La Anthony in Kushni at Ox which
is now just Kushni I believe, for the Metgala, and
(20:36):
I did a story on it for Style Blazer, which
was the site owned by moguld and Media at the time,
and that's when we met in person for the first time. Yeah,
I think that was maybe twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, and
then we have just sort of kept At first it
was really a professional relationship that we had at first
for years, and then during COVID things kind of changed
(20:58):
and we just sort of became close and closer as friends,
and he styled when I took over a lot of
things at Out magazine, I put Ricky Martin on the
cover and he was gracious enough to style Ricky for me,
and then I put on the cover with Simone and
so anyways, I say that to say we had this
(21:20):
quite involved working relationship that became a friendship. So then
he started working on his book and he wasn't the
happiest with how things were going, and he just asked
for some advice, so I, you know, gave advice gave
some help, did some reading, did a little bit of
work with him to get the book, and I was
(21:41):
excited to do it. I had never worked on a
full book before, so it was really nice because I
always knew that the first book that I worked on,
I did not want it to be my own. I
wanted to learn the process of doing and writing a
book before I was working on my own idea, and
so I was able to do that with his book.
And she's, you know, she is one of my closest friends.
(22:05):
Maybe at this point I think, yeah, I would say
Law is one of my closest friends. And as a result,
I know Law the person, you know who I can
call on the phone and we'll talk for an hour
about nothing, and then you know, she'll have to go
because she's going to a meeting. Like I know that Law.
I know Law the person out in the public and
(22:29):
how she interacts with people and fans and everyone else
like that. And I also, obviously, like everybody else, know
Law as a television character, and she is the same
person in public as she is in private, and she
is only a little bit of a more you know, exaggerated,
quippie version of that person on television, but she's basically
(22:52):
that same personal television. And so she's one thing about law,
and I think anyone that you meet will tell you
this is law is Obviously everyone knows she's incredibly driven,
but she's incredibly loyal, not to a fault. It's so
interesting because normally I would say to a fault, but
I wouldn't say to a fault because it goes back
(23:13):
to how hard working she is. Is she's so loyal
that if something's not going right, she's going to find
a way to make it right, like she's gonna make
it so you come out on top. Right, people don't
understand her, which you know, the reality about living a
public life and living at that level is no one
ever will. And so no matter how much people think
that they understand about her and the things that she's
(23:35):
done and the work that she's done so far, I
don't think there's any world in which she will ever
be completely respected and understood for the things that she
did and the way that she changed the industry until
it's over, Until she's done.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
And now back to my conversation with MIKEL. Street. The
work you do is activism, right. Writing is a form
of activism.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
I've always said it, whether people understand why it is.
Creating digital records of the times that we are in
during a time where they're trying to erase history is
a form of activism. And so you in many ways
are doing the work too, to ensure that this history
doesn't get lost, that these stories get told and after
being told properly, you know, from people who are actually
in community and not.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Those outside of it.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
But you did say you wanted to work on a
book before you ever did your own.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
So what is next for you? Is it a book? Like?
Speaker 3 (24:32):
What are some of the things that we are going
to see out of you? You know in these upcoming months, weeks, years.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
This summer I was able to do a lot of
stuff around ballroom, which I was really excited to do. So,
like last summer, I helped Michael Roberson on his book,
which was really really I was happy to be a
part of that project. Michael's so great and so I
was happy to assist him there. And then Michael Robertson, Genovia,
Chase Lanva, and Twiggy Puchi gar Saw all worked on
(25:01):
the sort of three part exhibit called Legendary Looks that
showed at three different gallery spaces in New York State,
one of which was kind of upstate in Yonkers, and
the other two were in New York City, and I
helped do some of the writing for those exhibits. And
so I do hope to continue my work around Ballroom.
(25:25):
I have always wanted to write a book. I have
a few titles, I have a few ideas for what
that book would be like, I have some hesitancies around it,
so I'm just working through those. When you ask me
about how I got into writing, I've always been a writer,
but I do remember when I decided I wanted to
be I wanted to write news and write journalism. It
(25:47):
was because I'm so interested in history, and I realized
that news reports informed the history that is written. And
so who you choose to contact victualize a moment in
a news item can and usually does, influence who is
(26:07):
contextualizing that moment for history, and so being able to
select those people has been important to me, and so
particularly with my work around Leather and my work around ballroom,
which are the two areas that I have decided I
think are going to be my most narrow areas of
expertise I'm always thinking about how can we include voices
(26:32):
specifically from these communities, right, how do we prioritize those voices?
How do we take moments that ballroom is getting shine
because of some celebrities involvement and then reframe that moment
and really put the spotlight on these other people in
the community, and then also widen the base of knowledge,
(26:52):
right as everyone wants to write about ballroom with where
they want to write about voguing and a role. You know,
why isn't Allure magazine and a beauty magazine not writing
about face? Right? Why isn't Vogue not writing about you know, labels?
Why isn't men's health not writing about body or sex? Siren?
(27:12):
And so like, that's what I purpose to do is
how do we use these moments where you know, Mary J.
Blige is being involved in a ball which may warrant
coverage from an outlet that normally wouldn't cover ballroom. How
do we use that to not talk about Mary J.
Blige but use it to talk about Simone who won
(27:34):
the cash that night. I think it was twenty thousand
dollars that yes, it was, Yeah, And so that's the
work that I have been doing and interested in doing
and want to continue to do. And whether that be
writing my own book or continuing to help others write
their books, I don't really care, but I'm interested in
continuing that.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
I love that, Yes, because we need an article on
Diana Ross and Love Hangover and that being the premiere
song for the face category. There's gotta be some history
of like how, how and how is this?
Speaker 2 (28:04):
I mean, I love that.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
Song, but it's like you go to a ball you know,
you go hit you are going to here love Hangover
and it's like that it's got some reason that that
song was chosen thirty or forty years ago and that
thirty forty years later that is still the premiere song
for the base category.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
BAM is such? I think that song is really about
the progression of the song. Yeah, yeah, I think it's
the swell of the song. Really. But ballm is such
an interesting space, and you know, my interest in the
history obviously, I'm interested in the house ballroom, but my
interest goes back to drag ballroom. And that's really the
(28:40):
interest that I have, right to pull and connect from
drag ballroom up through house ballroom and what does that
look like?
Speaker 3 (28:54):
Is there any word you want to leave with our
listeners for twenty twenty five. It's been a hell of
a damn We only August, we got so long ago.
But yeah, if there's any words you just want to
leave with our listeners for twenty twenty five or anything
that like encourages you, words that you live by.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
You know, what often encourages me is reading history knowing
that there were there was a me before me that
went through things that I'm going through and that made
it through, and there was a time before this time
where they went through things similarly and they made it through.
And I think so often, particularly I think it's black
(29:32):
where people we are fed this notion that we didn't
exist before, right, and that we weren't here, and that
if we were here, it was all hidden and their
lives were worse and blah blah blah blah blah. And
I mean I actually get quite emotional when you read
the history. I feel I'm like this history was stolen
(29:52):
from me, like that they were here and they were
not you know, they lived. Sometimes I'm like, fuller lives
and then we live, yeah, and in different ways, of course,
But and so I think about that often that yeah,
that there were people before me and there are going
to be people after me, and that often through community.
(30:14):
It is how we persevere. And trying to build that
community and finding people will assist in building that community
are important. I think.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
That was what we needed. My God.
Speaker 3 (30:30):
I want to thank you for coming on Fighting Words today,
and we appreciate us again the way that you fight
with your words and putting our stories and archiving our
stories and making sure that our history is as you
stated that the history we don't know about the history.
As they're trying to erase the history they've already erased.
The work that you do ensures that they won't be
forgotten and that we will still have it for the
(30:52):
generations that come after us.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
So thank you, thanks so much for having me, George.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
Today's quote comes from iconic fashion stylist Law Roach. You
could wear anything you want, no matter your size, age, anything.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
It's all about confidence.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
Fighting Words is a production of iHeart Podcasts in partnership
with Best Case Studios. I'm Georgian Johnson. This episode was
produced by Charlotte Morley. Executive producers are myself and Twety
Puchi Guar Song with Adam.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Pinkers and brick Cat for Best Case Studios.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
The theme song was written and composed by Colevas, Banbianna
and myself.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Original music by Covas.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
This episode was edited and scored by Michelle Macklin. Our
iHeart team is Ali Perry and Carl Ketel following rape
Fighting
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Words Wherever you get your Podcasts
Leather is thought of as this sort of white thing,
and as a result of that perception, often kinky black
men do not participate in community. They participate in king
and fetish, often on an individual level.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
MIKEL.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Street is a writer and editor from South Carolina. He
lives in New York and his work explores the intersection
of queerness, blackness, and aesthetics.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Michel writes about subcultures we're.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Often misunderstood and stigmatized, like the leather fetish and BDSM communities.
His work reminds us that they are often at the
forefront of the fights for our rights.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
The quote unquote, the most deviant amongst us have always
been the first to feel the brunt of lack of rights.
I think he and did to put the world take
a sip of brandy, spoke the guy who know what
the plan is KA Latino. One that understand me.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
My name is Georgi im Johnson.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
I am the New York Times best selling author of
the book All Boys Aren't Blue, which is the number
one most challenged book in the United States. This is
Fighting Words, a show where we take you to the
front lines of the culture wars with the people who
are using their words to make change, and who refuse
to be silent. Is today's guest, Mikel Street. I'm here
(01:37):
today with a good friend, mister Mikel Street. How are
you doing today?
Speaker 1 (01:40):
I'm good. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Yes, thank you for coming on the show. We start
to show off the same way as we do all
of our other episodes. Sometimes people know us from social
media the things that we do in the public space,
but they don't really know who we are. So could
you just let everyone know who is Mikel Street?
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Yeah. I mean to say that I am a writer,
an editor, and a storyteller. I normally am doing work
around blackness, queerness, and art slash fashion aesthetics, and I
think that my best work is generally at the intersections
of those spaces. I'm from South Carolina, the New York mindset.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
I love that. Pretty simple, you know.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
But yeah, I would say a lot of people do
know you for your insightful writing.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
What made you actually get into writing?
Speaker 1 (02:32):
I think that I always wrote and I always read.
My mom told me that she used to read to
me when I was very very young. But I for
as long as I remember, I was a reader and
a writer. I remember in first grade. Actually, my first
grade teacher, the name was Miss Hayward, and we made
these little booklets where we each got to write a
(02:53):
little story and you like stapled the papers together, and
I can remember it. It maybe had like you know,
those big lines with the dotted line in the middle,
and you could write in there, and then every few
pages had like a half a space that was supposed
to be for your drawing, like you could illustrate it.
And so everybody else was obsessed with the drawing. I
was obsessed with the writing, and so like I remember,
(03:15):
actually I would take the paper and take one sheet
and put it over the other one and trace the
line so I would have more lines to write on
instead of drawing. I think I ended up writing like
seven little booklets. And this was in the first grade.
So I was always interested in writing. It's something I've
(03:35):
always done. I moved to New York City in twenty thirteen,
the weekend after my last class in college. I don't
think I had ever visited New York before I moved here.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
I was always very driven to leave, and I apparently
made that very evident to the people around me.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
How has that been for your family? You know, like
has that been tougher on them? And I think a
lot of listeners, especially queer listeners that we have, like
family can be a tree subject in our community. So
what was what is that experience like for you and
your family, because I'm assuming they're still in South Carolina.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Yeah, it's complicated, okay. You know. I think that there's
two sides to look at things always, and I think
that on one hand, where would I have been? How
much further could I have gone if I got to
take advantage of these opportunities, you know, where would I be?
But on the other hand, I also look at it
(04:28):
as in, where would I be if I had been
a sixteen year old thinking I was grown running a street,
you know, not in the same state or city as
my parents. I think about that and the ways in
which my upbringing was quite protected. My parents were quite
(04:53):
strict by some standards, and so I don't know that
I would be the same person with the same amount
of self discipline were it not for that. I'm doing
a lot of reconnect with my family over the past
few years, and my mom was sort of I don't
want to say apologizing, but kind of gearing up to
apologize for, you know, the ways in which we were raised,
(05:17):
just because they were kind of restrictive. And I told her,
I was like, well, you know, I think the other
side of the coin is, as I believe a direct
result of that, I'm quite an independent person. I don't
really get fomo. I don't care if you don't want
to do a thing that I want to do, I'll
go by myself. I don't care that everybody's going to
that party. I'm not going. I don't want to go.
(05:38):
I don't think it's fun, I don't think it's safe,
I don't whatever. I am super independent in that way,
and I think it's because I was always raised with
this idea of, well, they may my kids, so I
don't care what they get to do. I don't care
where they get to go. My parents have realized that
the sword cuts both ways. That the same sort that
(05:59):
they raised me with to be independent and stand alone
and not care necessarily what other people thought. Because of
the person who was paying my bills had rules and
had boundaries and all of those sorts of things. I
now pay my bills. I am not that person, And
as a direct result, I decide who has access to
(06:21):
me when they have that access, I'm not going to
be guilt tripped into seeing anyone or doing anything or
going anywhere. And that is family, friends, or indifferent. And
there's always obviously an immense respect for my family, but
respect does not equate to deference.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
What I love about what you're saying is like, you've
created these boundaries that work for you.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
I have a very specific and slightly nuanced view to
relationships with family, and I think it starts very much
with who you are and what you were willing to
accept and for what. For me, I am at a
place because I've been raised in this way and I
feel so independent that I put very few things above
(07:13):
my own ego and pride and how I feel about
myself and the way that I want to present myself
and all those kinds of things. But I don't think
everybody is that way, and I don't think I think,
contrary to popular belief, everyone doesn't need to be that way.
So I had this friend of mine who was like,
I want to start dressing in this way, and one
of my gay sons actually had started to live in
(07:35):
this way, and they were like, you know, but when
I go home, I know it's going to be a thing.
Should I not go home? Should I wear it? And
I was like, I think you have to determine what's
important to you. And I think if it's important to
you to have this relationship and it doesn't bother you
that much to do this thing for that hour to
(07:56):
have that relationship, and that relationship is more important to you,
then that's a decision. I'm not going to make that decision.
I think it's a decision you have to make and
then feel free to change that later when you decide, Oh,
actually this didn't serve me as much as I thought
it would. So actually I'm not coming to see you anymore.
Like actually it brought up you know, actually I took
(08:16):
off these things to come see you, and now you're
pressuring me, Well, why don't you just dress this way? Anyways?
And I'm telling you while I'm doing this for you,
and you're not appreciating that, and actually that makes me
feel bad about myself. And so actually I'm not doing
this anymore, you know what I mean, like being willing
to say I'm going to try this and if it works,
it works, and I'll do it. But if it doesn't,
I'm not going to do it and being okay with
(08:36):
saying no, I've changed my mind.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Actually, no, that's profile.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
It's funny enough, Like I was like, oh, yeah, we're
gon come here talk about right and would who's And
now back to my conversation with mikel.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Street. You cover a myriad of topics.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
You were not scared to go to the places that
some people, you know, feel are like taboo subjects to
write about or discuss. So the first thing I want
to know is, like, what piques your interest in a story?
What is it for you that sparks the thing that
like I have to write about this.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Well, I'm a super sponge of new stuff and I'm
always thinking about it and connecting it to other things
that I've seen and heard, right, and trying to figure
out what is the thing that isn't being considered here
that explains this thing that we're seeing or gives it
greater context. I'm such a nerd of like so many things.
(09:40):
And one of my small things that I have gotten
into over the past four years is like Chinese Imperial
harem dramas, and I'm like watching all these shows in
Chinese the Imperial Hairm.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
Yeah, and so you've written about like fetish, and you've
written about like sex, like especially within like the queer community,
and you know, like discussing the leather community, yeah specifically
and like race and kink, Like what got you interested
in that that community specifically?
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Yeah, it's just you know, I will say this about
leather right it is it depends on the space and
the community and the da da da da right like,
And one day I hope to write this piece I
wanted for years. I wanted to write a piece about Onyx,
which is like the largest leather club of color. The
thing that I find so often with Onyx members of
(10:30):
Onyx is so many specifically black men, but men of
color at large. We'll say that they were kinky and
into fetish, but thought that they couldn't be involved with
the leather community or the community because they didn't see
anyone like them, and that they would engage in these
things in their homes in private. But it wasn't until
(10:54):
they found Onyx, in whatever form they found it in
that they felt like they could be a part of
the community. And so I see all that to say
people who really do think of it as predominantly white,
and then you get into these spaces. You go to
a mid Atlantic Leather which I think was the.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
First, also known as mall Right.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Which I think was the first one that I went to,
and Onyx has a quite a large present at mL.
And then you see all of these black men walking
around in large groups. They have an annual fashion show,
they do these parties, and for me, it did feel
(11:36):
like home in a way. Leather is thought of as
this sort of white thing, and as a result of
that perception, the often kinky black men do not participate
in community. They participate in king con fetish, often on
an individual level, until they find an organization or group
(11:59):
like ONYX.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
When it comes to like the different pockets of queer communities,
the subcultures, I think about the subcultures of our community,
how like they may be the smaller in numbers, but
realistically what they do is what permeates into the at
large of what our community looks like.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
On the outside.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Yeah, in many ways it could be watered down and
it may not look exactly like that, but it's like, no,
it's someone who in this leather community is what makes
a whole bunch of y'all feel comfortable. In my opinion,
in like a circuit community, and it's, oh, what we
do in ballroom. Let's be very clear, the fashions, the
things that is what makes y'all feel comfortable enough or
even proud enough to even have.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
A red dress run or go to a red dress.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
Like, like, whether you realize it or not, there's a
dot that's being connected to a smaller group in our
community that permeates all the way outside.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Yeah, for a long time I've been interested in my
practice is journalist has been interested in leatherman and drag
which are really two sides of the same coin. But
not only are they two the same coin, as you
can look at them as the two points on the
spectrum of queerness, right, the two opposite points on the
spectrum of queerness, right, which the drag queen is the
(13:18):
embodiment of the gay as the fairy right or the
most feminine form of the gay man is the drag queen.
You know, it gives you camp, it gives you all
of that which are all you know, think of as
as a queer staples. The leather man is the other
end of that archetype, like the sexual deviant, the masculine,
sexual deviant. And I think that those two are the
(13:41):
quote unquote the two extremes of what people's imagination of
what a gay man is. That either you're this leather wearing,
you know, fisting, you know, gay man doing all the
sniffing poppers and you know, blah blah blah blah, you know,
in somebody's dungeon with whips and chains, or you want
(14:01):
to wear a dress. And I think that those are
the two extremes. And I think that's why they interest
me so much, is because to your point, most gay
men fall somewhere in a midst of those, right, It's
very rare that people are one or the other, and
so you can think of yourself kind of on the
(14:22):
spectrum of what that is. And I think that's why
they interest me, particularly when you think about activism and
that kind of work. These people have to be at
the forefront, because it is the most marginalized who feel
the pressures of the margins, the most uniquely right, the
(14:43):
most pointedly right. And so sure, you homonormative gay man
in a monogamous marriage blah blah blah blah, you don't
feel the effects of various things as much as someone
else might write like sure you m nagamus gay man
in this marriage. You might not care that they outlawed
(15:05):
poppers because you don't use poppers. You don't have a
reason to use poppers, whereas maybe a fisting bottom might,
you know what I mean? Like, yeah, So the people
who feel the moves of censorship and in increasing encroachment
on our rights are the people's at the margins. And
so you look at a drag queen and you begin
(15:26):
to see where, you know what I mean, like everything
that's going over with drag queens and trans women and
all that kind of stuff, right like that, we can
see they're encroaching on rights in this way. And even
if it doesn't impact you now, that is clearly not
where it's going to end. And so that's why it's important.
And that's also why these communities have always been at
the forefront, is because they feel it. You know, I
(15:50):
just wrote a story about cruising, and in the process
of researching the story, I found this like super interesting
little tidbit which was days before Stonewall place where drag
queens and hustlers hung out, there was this act of
sort of vigilante justice of there had been a cruising
(16:11):
ground in Queens where gay men would cruise at and
this group of people who lived in the apartments there,
straight men who lived in the apartments there, had gotten
together their own little local police squad and was like
would run the gaze off. And days before stone Wall
they decided that they were just going to cut down
(16:32):
all the trees and all the bushes, and so they
got axes in Queens, which actions in chainsaws, like could
you imagine it in Manhattan? But acaz in chainsaws and
cut down all the trees and all the bushes, and
apparently the police were there and watched them do it
and said nothing. Obviously this is would have been illegal,
but they didn't say anything because it was against gays.
(16:53):
And so I say that to say, like these things
have always been sort of hand in hand. And you
know the quote unquote the most deviant amongst us have
always been the first to feel the brunt of lack
of rights.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
Yeah, and as you said, feel the brunt of the
lack of rights. And also at the front line.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Yeah, yeah, people don't think enough about precedent.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Yes, right, the subcultures did a lot of the work
so that you all could exist, So don't forget about
them when the when the dock is on your door,
because again, these were the people who gave you the
opportunity to even have that type of life trans women
across the board. Right, It's like it's always been the
few who have been able to do that. So I
just love how you kind of broke all of that down.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
You also recently worked on a book with Lord Roach.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
Correct, yes, I did, because we also want to get
into your fashion because you are one.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
You are a fashionable.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Person and as someone who I've seen at the balls
and just in life over the last you know, Michael
is a fashionable person, but I am.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
I think everybody.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
He always wants to know what like law Roach is like,
and I have my own law Road stories that have
all been great. Every single time I met him, it's
been just amazing and the kekey and I remember the
first time, like I actually got to meet him in person,
and I had to give this big speech at the time,
one hundred and like he just like literally like wagged
this thing for me to come over. He was like,
(18:20):
who are you wearing? And who is your stylist? And
I'm not gonna remember who it was I was in
this full leather outfit like couture from Paris, but it
was Shannon Stokes is my stylist. And as soon as
I said he was like, oh, I know Shannon. He
was like h right, and then literally sat down and
we talked that we exchanged phone number, like you know,
like really like he just gets in and yeah, I
(18:41):
mean he's funny, he's brilliant, he's shady, he's all the things. Yes,
what was that experience, like like helping him with that
book how to Build a Fashion Icon is the name
of the book for all those listening.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Yes, so long and I had known each other for
a very long time. A few years after I moved
to New York. My best friend at the time was
laws assistant, and so I first learned about law because
my friend at the time would come sit on my couch.
Both of us will be working from home. I call
all my girlfriends, she heard, and when I say girlfriends,
I mean boyfriends, saying you know, male friends. But whatever, anyway,
(19:11):
we get it. We're supposed to be family here, so
y'all should get it anyway. So she'd be writing all
these emails and I'll be doing my work. And then
she was like, I can't believe that Law just said that,
And I'd be like, girl, you know, what does she say, Son,
I read the email. Both of us are gag. So
that was my introduction to Law was this was you know,
(19:32):
this was twenty fifteen. I would want to say, so
this was still kind of you know, Zindia wasn't like
that girl at the time Zindea was. It was they
were still going through the time that Law talked about,
where people brands would be saying no, and Law would
be going back and forth with these girls like I'd
be gagging anyways, So you know, they were on the
come up. I was also starting my career in fashion journalism,
(19:54):
and so then the opportunity came for me to begin
writing for teen Vogue, and I knew about obviously Law
and Sindeia had a Material Girl campaign. Madonna had that brand,
Material Girl. Sindea was the face of Material Girl, and
so I interviewed Law about that. I feel like that
was like twenty fourteen, actually twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen decade,
(20:15):
so like that was my first time I think actually
speaking to him and like over the phone. And then
a few years later I feel like it was maybe
one or two years later. He styled his first met gala,
which was La La Anthony in Kushni at Ox which
is now just Kushni I believe, for the Metgala, and
(20:36):
I did a story on it for Style Blazer, which
was the site owned by moguld and Media at the time,
and that's when we met in person for the first time. Yeah,
I think that was maybe twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, and
then we have just sort of kept At first it
was really a professional relationship that we had at first
for years, and then during COVID things kind of changed
(20:58):
and we just sort of became close and closer as friends,
and he styled when I took over a lot of
things at Out magazine, I put Ricky Martin on the
cover and he was gracious enough to style Ricky for me,
and then I put on the cover with Simone and
so anyways, I say that to say we had this
(21:20):
quite involved working relationship that became a friendship. So then
he started working on his book and he wasn't the
happiest with how things were going, and he just asked
for some advice, so I, you know, gave advice gave
some help, did some reading, did a little bit of
work with him to get the book, and I was
(21:41):
excited to do it. I had never worked on a
full book before, so it was really nice because I
always knew that the first book that I worked on,
I did not want it to be my own. I
wanted to learn the process of doing and writing a
book before I was working on my own idea, and
so I was able to do that with his book.
And she's, you know, she is one of my closest friends.
(22:05):
Maybe at this point I think, yeah, I would say
Law is one of my closest friends. And as a result,
I know Law the person, you know who I can
call on the phone and we'll talk for an hour
about nothing, and then you know, she'll have to go
because she's going to a meeting. Like I know that Law.
I know Law the person out in the public and
(22:29):
how she interacts with people and fans and everyone else
like that. And I also, obviously, like everybody else, know
Law as a television character, and she is the same
person in public as she is in private, and she
is only a little bit of a more you know, exaggerated,
quippie version of that person on television, but she's basically
(22:52):
that same personal television. And so she's one thing about law,
and I think anyone that you meet will tell you
this is law is Obviously everyone knows she's incredibly driven,
but she's incredibly loyal, not to a fault. It's so
interesting because normally I would say to a fault, but
I wouldn't say to a fault because it goes back
(23:13):
to how hard working she is. Is she's so loyal
that if something's not going right, she's going to find
a way to make it right, like she's gonna make
it so you come out on top. Right, people don't
understand her, which you know, the reality about living a
public life and living at that level is no one
ever will. And so no matter how much people think
that they understand about her and the things that she's
(23:35):
done and the work that she's done so far, I
don't think there's any world in which she will ever
be completely respected and understood for the things that she
did and the way that she changed the industry until
it's over, Until she's done.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
And now back to my conversation with MIKEL. Street. The
work you do is activism, right. Writing is a form
of activism.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
I've always said it, whether people understand why it is.
Creating digital records of the times that we are in
during a time where they're trying to erase history is
a form of activism. And so you in many ways
are doing the work too, to ensure that this history
doesn't get lost, that these stories get told and after
being told properly, you know, from people who are actually
in community and not.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Those outside of it.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
But you did say you wanted to work on a
book before you ever did your own.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
So what is next for you? Is it a book? Like?
Speaker 3 (24:32):
What are some of the things that we are going
to see out of you? You know in these upcoming months, weeks, years.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
This summer I was able to do a lot of
stuff around ballroom, which I was really excited to do. So,
like last summer, I helped Michael Roberson on his book,
which was really really I was happy to be a
part of that project. Michael's so great and so I
was happy to assist him there. And then Michael Robertson, Genovia,
Chase Lanva, and Twiggy Puchi gar Saw all worked on
(25:01):
the sort of three part exhibit called Legendary Looks that
showed at three different gallery spaces in New York State,
one of which was kind of upstate in Yonkers, and
the other two were in New York City, and I
helped do some of the writing for those exhibits. And
so I do hope to continue my work around Ballroom.
(25:25):
I have always wanted to write a book. I have
a few titles, I have a few ideas for what
that book would be like, I have some hesitancies around it,
so I'm just working through those. When you ask me
about how I got into writing, I've always been a writer,
but I do remember when I decided I wanted to
be I wanted to write news and write journalism. It
(25:47):
was because I'm so interested in history, and I realized
that news reports informed the history that is written. And
so who you choose to contact victualize a moment in
a news item can and usually does, influence who is
(26:07):
contextualizing that moment for history, and so being able to
select those people has been important to me, and so
particularly with my work around Leather and my work around ballroom,
which are the two areas that I have decided I
think are going to be my most narrow areas of
expertise I'm always thinking about how can we include voices
(26:32):
specifically from these communities, right, how do we prioritize those voices?
How do we take moments that ballroom is getting shine
because of some celebrities involvement and then reframe that moment
and really put the spotlight on these other people in
the community, and then also widen the base of knowledge,
(26:52):
right as everyone wants to write about ballroom with where
they want to write about voguing and a role. You know,
why isn't Allure magazine and a beauty magazine not writing
about face? Right? Why isn't Vogue not writing about you know, labels?
Why isn't men's health not writing about body or sex? Siren?
(27:12):
And so like, that's what I purpose to do is
how do we use these moments where you know, Mary J.
Blige is being involved in a ball which may warrant
coverage from an outlet that normally wouldn't cover ballroom. How
do we use that to not talk about Mary J.
Blige but use it to talk about Simone who won
(27:34):
the cash that night. I think it was twenty thousand
dollars that yes, it was, Yeah, And so that's the
work that I have been doing and interested in doing
and want to continue to do. And whether that be
writing my own book or continuing to help others write
their books, I don't really care, but I'm interested in
continuing that.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
I love that, Yes, because we need an article on
Diana Ross and Love Hangover and that being the premiere
song for the face category. There's gotta be some history
of like how, how and how is this?
Speaker 2 (28:04):
I mean, I love that.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
Song, but it's like you go to a ball you know,
you go hit you are going to here love Hangover
and it's like that it's got some reason that that
song was chosen thirty or forty years ago and that
thirty forty years later that is still the premiere song
for the base category.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
BAM is such? I think that song is really about
the progression of the song. Yeah, yeah, I think it's
the swell of the song. Really. But ballm is such
an interesting space, and you know, my interest in the
history obviously, I'm interested in the house ballroom, but my
interest goes back to drag ballroom. And that's really the
(28:40):
interest that I have, right to pull and connect from
drag ballroom up through house ballroom and what does that
look like?
Speaker 3 (28:54):
Is there any word you want to leave with our
listeners for twenty twenty five. It's been a hell of
a damn We only August, we got so long ago.
But yeah, if there's any words you just want to
leave with our listeners for twenty twenty five or anything
that like encourages you, words that you live by.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
You know, what often encourages me is reading history knowing
that there were there was a me before me that
went through things that I'm going through and that made
it through, and there was a time before this time
where they went through things similarly and they made it through.
And I think so often, particularly I think it's black
(29:32):
where people we are fed this notion that we didn't
exist before, right, and that we weren't here, and that
if we were here, it was all hidden and their
lives were worse and blah blah blah blah blah. And
I mean I actually get quite emotional when you read
the history. I feel I'm like this history was stolen
(29:52):
from me, like that they were here and they were
not you know, they lived. Sometimes I'm like, fuller lives
and then we live, yeah, and in different ways, of course,
But and so I think about that often that yeah,
that there were people before me and there are going
to be people after me, and that often through community.
(30:14):
It is how we persevere. And trying to build that
community and finding people will assist in building that community
are important. I think.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
That was what we needed. My God.
Speaker 3 (30:30):
I want to thank you for coming on Fighting Words today,
and we appreciate us again the way that you fight
with your words and putting our stories and archiving our
stories and making sure that our history is as you
stated that the history we don't know about the history.
As they're trying to erase the history they've already erased.
The work that you do ensures that they won't be
forgotten and that we will still have it for the
(30:52):
generations that come after us.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
So thank you, thanks so much for having me, George.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
Today's quote comes from iconic fashion stylist Law Roach. You
could wear anything you want, no matter your size, age, anything.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
It's all about confidence.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
Fighting Words is a production of iHeart Podcasts in partnership
with Best Case Studios. I'm Georgian Johnson. This episode was
produced by Charlotte Morley. Executive producers are myself and Twety
Puchi Guar Song with Adam.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Pinkers and brick Cat for Best Case Studios.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
The theme song was written and composed by Colevas, Banbianna
and myself.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Original music by Covas.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
This episode was edited and scored by Michelle Macklin. Our
iHeart team is Ali Perry and Carl Ketel following rape
Fighting
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Words Wherever you get your Podcasts
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