September 23, 2025 • 40 mins
George is joined by the hosts of the HIGHKEY podcast, RuPaul’s Drag Race winner Yvie Oddly and culture critic Ryan Mitchell. Together, they discuss reactions to the Charlie Kirk shooting, the difference between empathy and apathy, the NFL's LGBTQ+ 'branding', why local politics matters, and whether we should bring back cursive writing?!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Being queer is about actually being free. It's about being unapologetic,
unashamed of your body, unashamed of your sexuality, and not
afraid to stand right next to somebody who has absolutely
nothing in common with you.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
This is Ev Oddly, who won RuPaul's Drag Race in
twenty nineteen. Ev is a fierce performer, an artist who's
memoir All About Ev is a must read. Ev is
also the co host of the podcast High Key with
Ryan Mitchell.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
It's really hard to navigate all the systemic structures that
are stopping me from being able to do the work,
but I don't give a fuck. I'm going to continue
to do everything that I can do possibly to make
sure in any space that we have the opportunity to
shine and take up as much space as possible.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Ryan is a culture critic and media consultant in the
NFL's first LGBTQ plus brand ambassador. Today I talked to
both Ev and Ryan from the High Key podcast. I
hope you enjoyed this very special and lively conversation. And
by the way, we recorded this episode only a couple
of days after the shooting of Charlie Kirk and as
you'll hear, we get into it and try to figure
(01:14):
out what it means for us individually and as a country.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Singing in them heavy handed to put the world take
a sip of brandy.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
He spoke the guy you know what the plan is?
Became a Latin one to understand me.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
My name is Georgiam Johnson.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
I am the New York Times best selling author of
the book All Boys Aren't Blue, which is.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
The number one most challenged book.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
In the United States.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
This is Fighting Words, a show where we take you
to the front lines of the culture wars with the
people who are using their words to make change and
who refuse to be silent. I am here today with e.
(02:04):
V Oddley and Brian Mitchell from the High Key podcast.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
How are you both doing? Today's probably a very heavy.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Question with everything that has transpired over the last two
to three days, But how are you both doing today?
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Now to bringing us on fighting? Where's the day? There's
something big to fight about? Bitch Lake, Fight Girl. The
MTV Awards were last week. Why couldn't we have been ahead?
Speaker 3 (02:30):
You know, twenty four hours everything changes. But let me
just say I am the Queen of disassociating and so
that's the mode that I'm currently on because ch y'all
will not kill and break my soul. As Beyonce has
often said.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
I feel like sometime our names precede us because we
are public figures and because of the work that we do,
and we rarely ever get asked like who we are.
So if each of you would just take a moment
to explain who you are, and I will say it,
like who is Ryan?
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Who is eb oddly? Oh, that's a great question. Who
is Ryan Mitchell? I am someone who leads with curiosity,
who is a perfectionist by default, who doesn't want to
be a burden into others, but knows that it's important
(03:21):
to ask for help now. And I'm someone that wants
to make sure that the people that I love and
who are some of the smartest and most creative and
thoughtful people, have the space to shine, a platform to
like grow, And I want to be that person. Ryan
(03:44):
is someone who wants to be that person that like
helps them get to that place through this work that
I'm doing.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
I love it.
Speaker 5 (03:51):
Wow, Well fuck I should have gone first, Evie Oddly.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
I am, I am chaos, I'm love, I'm an expression
of reminding you, for one second, how beautiful you are,
how sad like life can be, how rich things are.
I'm a jellyfish floating in the air, and I know
they don't do that.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
You know.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Sometimes it's going to piss you off, and sometimes I'm
going to run my battery out. But I'm somebody who's
just like here to try and shine as much as
I can, just to like show that somewhere in the world,
like your light can be picked up, you can feel
yourself inside somebody else. But most importantly, I am.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Sad, and hopefully that helps you know that we are
also high key and please come listen to us, yes, please,
because it is pure chaos.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
It's been a very interesting couple of days since the shooting.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
I'm looking at the irony of the death of Charlie Kirk,
of someone who did not believe in gun control and
so did not are empathy empathy and then literally dying
from it an action of it, and then so and
then for me to see the turnaround of like now
this person being put up as a martyr and like
kind of being worshiped and like being put on this pedestal.
(05:30):
I mean to bring in a culture aspect of this
seeing some of like the celebrities, like I mean kind
of tap into this being like I you know, I
didn't agree with everything, but there were some things that
he said was quite interesting. What were those things? Sis
actually talking to me?
Speaker 1 (05:46):
I'm actually I want to I want to talk about
it right now, because like my eyes did like water
up watching the whole press release this morning, Like at
first I was sitting here in my smarmy ass a
high liberal high horse, being oh god, here they are
about to tote the death of some person who I
know has said the most horrific shit constantly. But the
(06:08):
one point that not only the governor made, but my
husband over my back, was that a lot of in
a lot of ways, I am aligned with what Charlie
Kirk stood for, which is, you know, going literally bringing
discourse into a real life space. And I'm not saying
I liked the shit he had to say, and I'm
(06:29):
not saying I think he was a good debater, but
there is something to be said about losing somebody who
stands for a space where you are going to challenge
people's ideas, because that's an issue on both the right
and the left, is you know, getting yourself in a
bubble of people who already think see here, feel like you,
(06:50):
and never getting the grit of the fact that there
is somebody on this planet who your views hurt and
whose views hurt you. And so like hearing the governor
say that I got pissed because he got turned into
a murder for that, and it is sad. And if
you don't have any empathy for the fact that even
an evil piece of shit person who is willing to
(07:11):
have a conversation with you got his blood like his
neck blown out, it says such terrible things about where
our country's at.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Yeah, you know, Okay, here's the thing. I think. It
is difficult for me to care much more when someone
does not have an actively fault against all the things
that I represent and all the things that my community represents,
and was actively trying to, you know, erase us from
either the conversation, from culture, from life from and is
(07:40):
a part of the structures that are currently in place
that are like actively like trying to take us all out.
And so for me, it's hard for me to sit
in like a deep sadness or kind of get caught
up in the theatrics of it, because that's the thing
about Charlie Kirk. He understood the theatrics of his work. Yeah,
he understood there was a performance aspecting, Yes he could.
(08:03):
He was all about and even the event that he
was doing he was meeting with students that have a
one on one kind of like you believe s conversation.
But that's performative, that is theatrical. You're not actually he's
not actually there to hear an opposite view. Right to share,
to make money.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
It's totally true. But ultimately, you know, that's what we
all boil down to in our evil as society. But
even if you don't have empathy at the same level
that I do, I think one thing that is ultimately
revealed in this is how hypocritical people are on both sides,
because you know, I have had dead children in my
(08:43):
face for years now.
Speaker 5 (08:44):
I've had like shit I woke.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Up to every day for years now, and it's so
fucked up to see that and the people who are
you know, there's this, always, always, this argument that's thrown
at specifically LGBTQ people who are advocating for free Palestine,
about well, why would you fight for people who would
have you dead if they had power? And that's what
(09:07):
it boils down to here for me is like on
my gut instinct, my gut reaction to it was like, fuck, yes,
I'm happy Charlie Kirk is dead. That's one less destructive voice.
And then like taking a step back and realizing that, like,
you know, shooting all the people who oppose you, unless
you got all the guns, girl, it is not the
way to solve the problem. And I will say I
(09:30):
don't think liberals, left leaning people are the people with
the gun power in this country.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Well, I think and I think what it speaks like
larger to because it's not just about like we have
a difference of opinion. It's not just about like it's
I want I don't want you alive, right, like they
can death ultimately. And so it's like when we discuss
a figure like a Charlie Kirk, it wasn't just that
like his views were divisive.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Right, like a rush Limball views.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
Were divisive, right, you know what I'm saying, Like.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
There's a very intentional attempt to un.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Alive people through their rhetoric, right, And I think that
is what was the like the that's what's been the
hardest part for me to parse, Like in watching how
people are like, you know, like we shouldn't just die
because of the differences of opinion. And I'm like, but
a person saying that I was better off during slavery
is not a difference of opinion.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
But we're also not doing better if we're stoking.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
The fire though, right, A person saying that we were
better off during Jim Crow and that there was that's
not a difference of opinion when we were being lynched, right,
because Jim Crow we were being lynched, right, So you
literally said we were better off during the period of
intense lynchings.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
And it's so interesting.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
The first thing I thought of, like after everything happened,
the first thing I thought of was the immeatyl sign
that continuously gets shot, right, like all these years, like
we're still talking about a twelve year old boy who
did nothing wrong, and that they still people who are
still in that particular party will shoot this sign as
a reminder to us that we are never safe and
(11:05):
we're never going to be safe.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Right, the immediate reaction being will attack.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
HBCUs insane, Like what we have to do with Utah
has one point is literally black people make up one
point six percent of the population in Utah and the
first reaction was attack black colleges. I think I agree
with you in many ways about like just how how
we are supposed to process this, But I think apathy
(11:29):
is a feeling that I get a lot more often
than not, where I just don't feel anything anymore.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
To these type of situations.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Like I have my opinions, and I think we all
have our thoughts, but like, but.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
That's why, that's why I think, really the fucking answer
for this is not to be pouring online every second
everything that happens, because we've already had like like at
least five years of social media studies out in the
world being like, yeah, the more you're on this shit,
the less you know how to relate to other people.
(12:04):
And so like, the empathy that you hear from me
isn't about like, oh, I like, I mean, on some
level it is because it's still murders fucking horrific, and
I'm so sorry.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
If it's it's awful. I don't. I totally agree with you.
I had no one wants to witness that. I don't
think the human brain is not designed to witness what
we have witnessed.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
But deeper than that, I think the issue is that,
like the fact that apathy is like the most empathy
you can get out of.
Speaker 5 (12:31):
All of us, it's just so scary.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
I agree, And and the way that I personally I am
trying to fight that is by I'm plugging off of
that because like, even if I come across crazy ass
racist trumpers in real life, bitch say something, do something
they like in your in your uber like, they're not
going to do anything more than tell you to get out. Like,
so we would rather have those I mean, we hope,
(12:55):
But if if they're plugged in online too, if everybody
is just living in the same bubble and not actually
experiencing what the fuck humanity is like, like close your
goddamn phone for one second and talk to a stranger
and then tell somebody about what that experience was like,
whether or not they agreed with you.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
I think what's really interesting for me because I totally
agree with you on a few different levels.
Speaker 5 (13:21):
EV.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
And I also I think what's been revealing about all
of this in the past couple of days is like,
no one I don't think really understands what political violence means. Yes,
because I think everything it's just like only talking about
it in from like a like a murderous standpoint, but
like the fact that I can't get like health insurance
(13:42):
are like people can't get health insurance are the fact
that people can't even get their lunches paid for, you know,
like the fact that people are struggling in the ways
that we are struggling in now, And I'm like, we
we have a we're pretty privileged in a lot of
different ways. But the fact that I have so many
community around me that are struggling are these are versions
(14:03):
of the political violence that is happening every single day
that we have become completely like, oh, that's just the norm.
And so it's it's unfortunate that a lot of this
has been kind of like left out of the conversation
because the pendulum has swung so far to the extremes
of what political violence looks like. It doesn't necessarily allow
for any of the actual necessary nuances that are happening
(14:27):
and occurring in our daily lives, Like so much stress
and so many things that are currently happening in our
lives is a part and a reflection and a trickle
down effect of the things that are happening at the top.
And it's just there's no room for it, because then
it becomes this juggling of like, well, who's suffering and
who's oppressed the most, And I'm just like, bitch, I
(14:49):
just want to bring I just want the people around
me to be able to breathe, and like, no, there's
no place to do that, which I think is connected
to the fact when we're choosing appathy and we're also
seeing everyone go to the extremes of murder and things
like that. So it's I don't even know how we
really get from off this fucking timeline because this is
(15:11):
just what it is. We We're not even how many
years has Trump been in the office. Girl, I'm like
we're still at his part. Just like there's so much
more that we just are not like I don't think
we are actually prepared for. And I hate to sound
like this doom and gloom, but bitch, like this is
the true all I had.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
I had that same conversation with like three different hookups
in the last twenty four hours, and I.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Love that that's what your hookups are happening, like that
you're having these yeah, because that's like where we're going.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
It's like, hey, that was a really nice massage. Thank you. Also,
now that I worked out all that stress, I want
to talk about Charlie Kirk a little.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
This is what you can't expect.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Saying that, And now back to my conversation with EVI
oddly and Ryan Mitchell.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
Now, Ryan, I do have a question for you though,
because you work with the NFL.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
Oh, yeah, I do.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
And I find it interesting like that, you know, like
you have like your programming that goes on with the NFL,
which you know, it's like around BTQ and the things.
And then I believe there was you know, we're watching
sports moments. Do moments of silence for a white supremacist?
Speaker 4 (16:36):
How do you navigate.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
The space of the work that you do, which has
been great and the events your throne and all the
work that you do with the organization which has been
amazing versus was it shut up and dribble was to
Lebron James, right, and you know Kaepernick with the kneeling,
you know, and then this happens and it's like moments
of islands for It's like, well, I thought y'all said
(17:02):
this wasn't political. Yees, So okay, I'm about to shut
up and turn off everything. No, Okay, So yeah, I
am the NFL's first LGBTQ brand ambassador. I've been that
for the past two seasons, and currently I'm not occupying.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
That space as much as I was. But I did
create a program called The Exchange that was all about
connecting with the teams and connecting with the queer community
and having like a really beautiful cultural dinner experience where
we actually have these nuanced conversations about our place in
this world that historically has told us we don't deserve
to be here and we shouldn't be here, and connecting
(17:45):
the folks who are actually on the ground doing the work,
the queer folks and the trans folks who are on
the ground doing the work, connecting them to opportunities and
possibilities to help amplify their work. And then I take
them to the first you know.
Speaker 4 (17:56):
Football footballgram.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Yeah, and so like that was. That's been a really
great experience and it's a legacy that I've i have
left with that league as they're continuing to do that program.
But I think when I first made that decision to
really kind of get into partnership with them, it was
it took me a very long time to say yes,
because I knew the complicated nature of one the fact
(18:18):
you're not just getting someone who is queer, you're actually
getting people who are checking You're getting me someone who
is checking off the boxes of that part of the
communities that you have historically had issues with black people
and queer and you're kind of getting you're checking it
off with me, and I'm i'm, i'm, I'm I'm actually
becoming this bridge for you in a way to actually
help you regain the trust of these communities that you
(18:40):
kind of have fucked over historically. And it's been interesting.
There are some really incredible people in the inside who
are who get it and who understand the hurdles that
they are going through. And I think it's always important
to have that those folks inside who are trying to
do the work. But it's hard when at the end
(19:01):
of the day, you see a player or you see
a team take a stance, or the fandom, the toxic
as fandom of the NFL drag you know, queer people
have an awful take over. A queer cheerleader are a
male cheerleader? Yeah, and so it's a yes, and right,
It's like, yes, I'm doing incredible work. Yes, the league
(19:22):
is doing incredible work, but also the culture is what
the culture is already, unfortunately, and I'm trying to help
them find more ways to be louder than the existing
culture that it is. But also sometimes it's also best
to just ignore that shit and be like I'm doubling down,
and the NFL has done that. I'm not gonna lie
to you like I'm I've actually been quite shocked when
(19:44):
we've seen like folk organizations and entities like Target, like
roll back on DEI, and then you have the NFL
actually being like, actually around, We're actually going to stand
Tinto's down and continue to do the work that we're
doing with you. That's really important.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
I'm not trying to jeopardize your job, but the I mean,
somebody at the top is totally getting their dick sucked.
Speaker 5 (20:03):
And I would like to say right.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Now if you need any new openings, La.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
No, I mean, yeah, I just I think it's it's
it's really really difficult to watch it. And I think
that's a lot that goes into a lot of the
reasons why it's not that I won't ever work with
the NFL again, because I most definitely will, and planning
on for the Super Bowl, which is going to be
in San Francisco. But I think it's just it's a
(20:35):
it's it's difficult, It's it's hard to navigate. It's really
hard to navigate all the systemic structures that are stopping
me from being able to do the work. And then
also like the cultural structures that are making it difficult
for like queer folks, that intersectional queer folks to be
able to exist in this space. But I don't give
a fuck. I'm going to continue to do everything that
I can do possibly to make sure in any space
(20:57):
that we have the opportunity to shine and take up
as much space as possible.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
I also want to take it to you now, ev right, like,
because you have had to navigate that space when it
comes to drag race, when it comes to fandoms, when
it comes to I mean, we go a lot on
time we see the racism, you know, between black drag
(21:30):
queens and white drag queens, and you have a very
large following, you are very outspoken, and so you know
you've had to have a lot of nuance in that space.
It's like in publishing, publishing is mainly white. I've had
to have nuance and can I say this thing publicly
and not potentially affect my moral clause because yeah, people
(21:53):
don't understand, but I'm putting it out there. Like when
we do these deals and things, there's always a morality
clause unless your lawyer could get it. A lawyer could
get it tossed, which I've had good age is a
good lawyer some time that that language gets very specific
about things that I am going to talk about publicly
so that I don't lose my job and I do not.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Lose my contracts, because that's also the reason why they
want you. How you had to navigate that.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Yeah, it's the hard balance to find because everything has
a morality clause, whether or not it says that your
job has a morality clause, this relationship has a morality clause.
And for those of you who aren't familiar with what
that is, a morality clause is a big blanket statement
in a legal contract saying hey, if you ever do
(22:35):
anything that like we deem immoral, and that is so vague.
If you ever do anything that we deem immoral, that
is cause to terminate this contract. And that was actually
the first the first thing I ever bitched about after
reading contracts was being like, girl, i am a drag queen.
Number one, Like, girl, I'm an all drag queen, like
(22:58):
I'm coming out here with my nipples and asshole out
like I'm and you ask me to sign a morality
clause when queer people, black people like femmes are illegal illegal, Well,
I'm saying illegal because there have been just there's been
a history of laws that remove our humanity, that keep
(23:22):
us in places of subjugation, and we are moral. And
I will say this one point is I prefer the
part of the timeline we're in right now where my
enemies are out loud and feel like they have a
place to express themselves because in places like where we
were in between Trump presidencies, the one thing that these
(23:44):
crazy ass magat fucks got right is that things did
not get better. You cannot expect the world to change
just because you shout at it. And I think where
I've always found myself as an artist applies to so
many situations in life, which is, give people forty nine
percent of what they want to see. You have to
(24:04):
meet people somewhere, but bitch, you better give yourself that
extra two percent like you better give fifty one percent
of what you know to be true, So you might
have to like sneak in the door of this like
white elite patriarchy, but like when you're in there, they're
going to be forced to reconcile with your your humanity.
(24:24):
And I always tie this back to Harvey Milk, who
you know, was a big person urging people to come out,
urging people to like show people around them. And I
actually kind of like coming out for that reason, because
you know, it's nice to meet somebody in their humanity and.
Speaker 5 (24:43):
Then surprise them with all your dirty shit.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
That's so real, No, that is so real. And the
part about like the illegality of our existence right, like
it's which I words, that's what I do for a living.
So it's like being a specific about what it is.
It's like it's not just a moral it's illegal. Like
it's illegal. And there were laws on the books that
(25:11):
made our existence illegal. The laws on the books. You know,
we weren't even people in this country were property.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Right, I mean the laws, the laws on the books
still make us illegal. You know, they still target us
at every level. The way you dress, the way you act.
There was something you said when you were on our
show a couple of weeks back, where you were talking
about the freedom and sexuality and nudity, and that is
what is illegal about being queer is the freedom America
(25:41):
likes to waive its free flag, but only when it
falls under something that white Christian God's eyes. Yeah, and
being queer is about actually being free. It's about being unapologetic,
unashamed of your body, unashamed of your sexuality, and not
afraid to stand right next to somebody who has absolutely
nothing in common with you.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
If everyone could just unlock in that unlocking, I think
that's really where everything will come together, like everything will
like feel just right. But I don't know if we're
going to ever really see that in our lifetimes. You know,
I'm hoping that we are. We are examples. We are
like setting up the tools of what it means to
(26:23):
really be in spaces that have told us that we
should not exist and have explicitly said that we are
illegal if we are going with that language. And I
hope that us doing this right here is a part
of our legacy and having these really important conversations because
me growing up in Laverne, Tennessee, longing for queer community
(26:44):
and longing to like know that, oh my god, if
I actually am who like myself one hundred percent authentically,
I can survive. I can thrive. And I think this
is an example of this being able to see people,
queer folks, black people doing just that.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
And now back to my conversation with Evi Oddley and
Ryan Mitchell. You brought up that you grew up in Tennessee,
and I just find it interesting that Tennessee has become
has become like the the Ohio fer It's become like
this litmus test of yeah things like okay, so like.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
For everything and they're and they're failing.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
That's what I meant by the Ohio for the right.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Like when they started attacking drag shows, like it was Tennessee, right,
it was like the time in Tennessee where they first
went to try and pass the law or whatever, and
it was like Tennessee like okay. But then today, you know,
Trump says the next city we're sitting in the National
Guard to his Memphis, and it's like, how the hell
the Tennessee, Like like, you know, it's just becoming interesting
(27:57):
that like the test of operation and has become Tennessee.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
I mean, Tennessee was always a test in my life,
if I'm being And that's.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Why I'm glad you said, because right, like it's like,
what what has happened in Tennessee?
Speaker 3 (28:11):
Nothing is if I mean honest, nothing is really happening
in Tennessee that wasn't already happening. Like the first time
I was called a nigga with a hard R was
in the third grade in my elementary school and ended
like that was the first time, right, the first time
I saw the Confederate flag being worn as a symbol
of like like you were born the doctor who delivered
it like literal, like you know, like I and like
(28:33):
I always you know, I never really understood because most
of my family's from like midwest Illinois, and my mom
and I moved down to Tennessee, right and it was
that's all live ever and I grew up there, and
so it's always so interesting because when you think about it, yes,
it's historically been the Bible Belt and whatever everything that
(28:55):
comes with that, but then just like any other place,
I feel like it also has a thrive queer, creative community,
like it holds both of these, Like Tennessee's a very
yes and place, which is so weird. I've never really
thought about it like that until now, where I'm like, yeah,
while we are also being attacked and being a race,
we're also having a moment where we're celebrating each other
(29:16):
and like being in space and community with each other.
And so it's always been a part of that my
history in Tennessee. Right, all of these things happening right now,
I think is only happening because the country has kind
of had this like traditional conservative glaze over it, and
now we are just like magnifying the states that were
always sort of like that. Can I ask you really
(29:41):
quickly not to like derail this, but George, how do
you what do you recommend for people who aren't as
like politically savvy it's a good one, and what do
you recommend for them to like, yeah, kind of stay
in the know, are also kind of at least know
what's going on to extent without being burnt out. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
I saw a tweet yesterday where a guy followed He
basically was like, I haven't said much because I actually
am not politically aware enough to say anything. And you know,
he's just being very truthful and very transparent in it,
and another one of my friends, quot tweeted it and
was like, I appreciate you saying this out loud, and
that's not okay anymore.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
You have to know what's going on.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
You have to understand who is affecting you, what is
affecting you, and how it is affecting you. So I
think the first thing is like, we have to get
back to a place where it is okay to read right,
Like I think sometimes.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
The bare minimum, the bear minimum is just real, girl,
we never stopped.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
And I think a lot of times we consume through
video and we consume through you know, and people are
trying to get a point made in ninety seconds for
a topic that needs a read of ten minutes.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
It takes time.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
And so I encourage people that it is okay to
take fifteen minutes out of your day to read articles
about what's happening, because an article can lay it out
for you in a way that someone who was speaking
on it in ninety seconds on TikTok may not be
able to fully give you the nuance.
Speaker 4 (31:21):
Or the breath or the depth of what you need.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
So I think that's number one is getting back to journalism,
which was I used to wake up and see my
parents reading the newspaper. Yeah, that was like their morning
routine was cup of coffee, the Courier News and the
Star Ledger in New Jersey, and they would read the paper.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
I saw a young guy on the plane the other
day with a paper in his hands, and I was shocked.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
I was like, I don't even know where you could
get the paper.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
My parents still get the newspaper every day and read it, right,
generation Yeah, so I think, dang, and I read articles
all day, right, Like it is okay to actually read
the articles too. I think it is okay to not
fully understand everything, right. I think that's where some people
are like, but you gotta fully under It's like, no,
(32:11):
some people don't have the capacity to fully understand anything.
So those of us who do know everything, it is
our job to make some of this digestible and so
that they can be able to fully process it and
fully understand it. And so I think for me, that's
why one of the things I said earlier was I
know I have to do a video because part of
(32:32):
my purpose is to make these big worldly topics that
people are like, I just don't understand any of this
digestible to say this is actually what is happening, and
I can compare it to this time and history that
you may have learned about when you were a kid
to now know how this all connects and dots connect.
But I do think people need to really get at
(32:56):
least a little bit politically engaged, and I think local
politics is where you start. I tell people that all
the time. I understand, you know, people are like, I
ain't voting for this motherfucker for the president. I ain't
voting for this for the got it? Okay, But you
need to know who on your school board. You need
to know who your aldermen is. You need to know
who your maya is, you need to know when city
(33:16):
council meetings are because if you want your day to
day life to change, that's where you need to be.
And so it's reminding them that these big topics, these
big worldly things will always trickle down into your local
community and that's where you have to be most involved.
So even if you aren't a depth enough to understand
(33:37):
the national politics of APAC and Israel and how this
is working and da da da da da, you should
at least understand how it's working. In your city, how
this big thing over here is playing a role, and
why that pothole in front of your house for the
last three years hasn't been fixed Because there's a reason
that that pothole is not fixed, and it could be
tied to the fact that your tax money is going
(33:59):
here and here and here and here and here. But
you need to understand that it's this big thing that
trickles down to this little thing. But once you get
involved in this little thing, at some point that PIHO
can get fixed.
Speaker 3 (34:09):
So I think that's what I was saying. No, that's
perfect so.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
Much well, unplugged from the big ship for a second.
Read the articles unplugged. But then literally, if you're going
to be upset, I want to make a change. It's
sounds so corny, but do it at home. Girl, clean
your room.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
I mean your house. Yeah, but that's really it, right,
Start in your home. Start in your house, Like you know,
we're living in one of the most revealing times. Yes,
and take that how you want to take it. But
I think it's it's revealing where people I thought I knew.
It's revealing where they stand, and it's also revealing where
people I did not think you know, I thought we're
(34:51):
you know, stood somewhere else. Actually go so we're living
in one of the most so important to just sit
back sometimes and just watch and look because that will
really guide you and tell you where you should land
and where you should go at, who you should be around,
and who who is actually doing the reading.
Speaker 4 (35:10):
The reading tea. That's it, everybody.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
We could read you, We read the girl, but we
also need you all to be able to read.
Speaker 4 (35:17):
And we got to bring that cursive.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
And bring back library cards. Girl.
Speaker 4 (35:21):
We got to bring that cursive because.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Take their time to read. You're like, is that an
arn F?
Speaker 2 (35:28):
I mean, I would just appreciate if my nephew is
able to read the Constitution because it is written and
so I think people forget that, like not the most important,
the most important documents in this country are actually written
in cursive and.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
So so are you saying that's legible though, because that
is my one argument is the Constitution looks like it
could have been written by a doctor a lawyer, like
it scribbles like I.
Speaker 4 (35:54):
Would say it is. It is very old script.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
When I could, I could get through it, and it
uses shyer in words that you know.
Speaker 3 (36:02):
You you better hold a feather you try to translate
to find a feather and let a hat give you
the power to translate that screent.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Final question, any words that you'll want to leave for
the people out there, Like you said like things is rough,
things is tough. I know you made a video about
like it's okay to like get off the internet sometimes,
which I do sometimes, like okay, let me go into
my New York Times puzzles and connections and word.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
You know what I've been living for though I have
been living for I mean, yes, I'm getting off the internet,
but sometimes I'm existing in a specific corner of the
Internet on TikTok right now where I am watching nothing
but That's so Raven episodes and it has been everything
to me and has literally giving me. It's like re
(37:03):
energized me at certain moments where I just take, you know,
twenty minutes, thirty minutes to watch this episode and I'm like,
you know what work, This is exactly what I needed
to feel more freshure. And I'm not saying that to
everybody else is just but that is that's what's been
working for me. And I think the key there is
finding something that works for you that re energizes you
(37:25):
and refreshes you, because we need it. If we are
going to continue to like hold all these different things,
if we're going to continue to juggle the complications in
the chaos of life, we have to find that space
and time to re energize ourselves. Ditto.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Really, honestly, find some space to take care of yourself.
I can't help but think the thought that's been in
the back of my head for the past week, honestly
is thinking about the future as as being this very
very scary, doom and gloom place. That's how that's how
I see it. And I'm just so thankful. I'm so
(38:09):
so thankful I have a little bit of life right now.
I'm I'm thankful for all the people around me that
I like get to interact with, and you know, I
let them know in those moments that I'm not gonna
I'm not gonna be here forever and I'm probably never
gonna text you back, but just practicing that, like also
literally finding space to charge myself. But like, if I'm
(38:33):
gonna be draining my battery, I want to pour it
into as many people as possible so we can have
these little conversations and when the world starts burning around you,
you remember that you have a community of people who
are going to trade you food this week for blowjobs,
you know, or like makeup or makeup tips. I think
(38:54):
I think queer queer people are gonna have to get really,
really good at bartering. Okay, girl, So start thinking about
what that closet costs right now?
Speaker 3 (39:03):
That is true, because I got birth and hips.
Speaker 4 (39:15):
I'm gonna thank you for coming off. Fighting Words.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Everybody please listen to the High Key podcast because as
you could hear, it is very high and it's very key.
Thank y'all for being to that. Fighting Words is a
production of iHeart Podcasts in partnership with Best Case Studios.
(39:43):
I'm Georgian Johnson. This episode was produced by Charlotte Morley.
Executive producers are myself and Tweking, with g Guar Song
with Adam Pinkin's and Brick Cats for Best Case Studios.
The theme song was written and composed by Covas Bambianna
and myself original music Vakova. This episode was edited and
(40:04):
scored by Michelle McLeman our. iHeart team is Ali Perry
and Karl Ketel. Following rape, Fighting Words wherever you get
your podcast,
Being queer is about actually being free. It's about being unapologetic,
unashamed of your body, unashamed of your sexuality, and not
afraid to stand right next to somebody who has absolutely
nothing in common with you.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
This is Ev Oddly, who won RuPaul's Drag Race in
twenty nineteen. Ev is a fierce performer, an artist who's
memoir All About Ev is a must read. Ev is
also the co host of the podcast High Key with
Ryan Mitchell.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
It's really hard to navigate all the systemic structures that
are stopping me from being able to do the work,
but I don't give a fuck. I'm going to continue
to do everything that I can do possibly to make
sure in any space that we have the opportunity to
shine and take up as much space as possible.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Ryan is a culture critic and media consultant in the
NFL's first LGBTQ plus brand ambassador. Today I talked to
both Ev and Ryan from the High Key podcast. I
hope you enjoyed this very special and lively conversation. And
by the way, we recorded this episode only a couple
of days after the shooting of Charlie Kirk and as
you'll hear, we get into it and try to figure
(01:14):
out what it means for us individually and as a country.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Singing in them heavy handed to put the world take
a sip of brandy.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
He spoke the guy you know what the plan is?
Became a Latin one to understand me.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
My name is Georgiam Johnson.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
I am the New York Times best selling author of
the book All Boys Aren't Blue, which is.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
The number one most challenged book.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
In the United States.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
This is Fighting Words, a show where we take you
to the front lines of the culture wars with the
people who are using their words to make change and
who refuse to be silent. I am here today with e.
(02:04):
V Oddley and Brian Mitchell from the High Key podcast.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
How are you both doing? Today's probably a very heavy.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Question with everything that has transpired over the last two
to three days, But how are you both doing today?
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Now to bringing us on fighting? Where's the day? There's
something big to fight about? Bitch Lake, Fight Girl. The
MTV Awards were last week. Why couldn't we have been ahead?
Speaker 3 (02:30):
You know, twenty four hours everything changes. But let me
just say I am the Queen of disassociating and so
that's the mode that I'm currently on because ch y'all
will not kill and break my soul. As Beyonce has
often said.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
I feel like sometime our names precede us because we
are public figures and because of the work that we do,
and we rarely ever get asked like who we are.
So if each of you would just take a moment
to explain who you are, and I will say it,
like who is Ryan?
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Who is eb oddly? Oh, that's a great question. Who
is Ryan Mitchell? I am someone who leads with curiosity,
who is a perfectionist by default, who doesn't want to
be a burden into others, but knows that it's important
(03:21):
to ask for help now. And I'm someone that wants
to make sure that the people that I love and
who are some of the smartest and most creative and
thoughtful people, have the space to shine, a platform to
like grow, And I want to be that person. Ryan
(03:44):
is someone who wants to be that person that like
helps them get to that place through this work that
I'm doing.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
I love it.
Speaker 5 (03:51):
Wow, Well fuck I should have gone first, Evie Oddly.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
I am, I am chaos, I'm love, I'm an expression
of reminding you, for one second, how beautiful you are,
how sad like life can be, how rich things are.
I'm a jellyfish floating in the air, and I know
they don't do that.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
You know.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Sometimes it's going to piss you off, and sometimes I'm
going to run my battery out. But I'm somebody who's
just like here to try and shine as much as
I can, just to like show that somewhere in the world,
like your light can be picked up, you can feel
yourself inside somebody else. But most importantly, I am.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Sad, and hopefully that helps you know that we are
also high key and please come listen to us, yes, please,
because it is pure chaos.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
It's been a very interesting couple of days since the shooting.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
I'm looking at the irony of the death of Charlie Kirk,
of someone who did not believe in gun control and
so did not are empathy empathy and then literally dying
from it an action of it, and then so and
then for me to see the turnaround of like now
this person being put up as a martyr and like
kind of being worshiped and like being put on this pedestal.
(05:30):
I mean to bring in a culture aspect of this
seeing some of like the celebrities, like I mean kind
of tap into this being like I you know, I
didn't agree with everything, but there were some things that
he said was quite interesting. What were those things? Sis
actually talking to me?
Speaker 1 (05:46):
I'm actually I want to I want to talk about
it right now, because like my eyes did like water
up watching the whole press release this morning, Like at
first I was sitting here in my smarmy ass a
high liberal high horse, being oh god, here they are
about to tote the death of some person who I
know has said the most horrific shit constantly. But the
(06:08):
one point that not only the governor made, but my
husband over my back, was that a lot of in
a lot of ways, I am aligned with what Charlie
Kirk stood for, which is, you know, going literally bringing
discourse into a real life space. And I'm not saying
I liked the shit he had to say, and I'm
(06:29):
not saying I think he was a good debater, but
there is something to be said about losing somebody who
stands for a space where you are going to challenge
people's ideas, because that's an issue on both the right
and the left, is you know, getting yourself in a
bubble of people who already think see here, feel like you,
(06:50):
and never getting the grit of the fact that there
is somebody on this planet who your views hurt and
whose views hurt you. And so like hearing the governor
say that I got pissed because he got turned into
a murder for that, and it is sad. And if
you don't have any empathy for the fact that even
an evil piece of shit person who is willing to
(07:11):
have a conversation with you got his blood like his
neck blown out, it says such terrible things about where
our country's at.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Yeah, you know, Okay, here's the thing. I think. It
is difficult for me to care much more when someone
does not have an actively fault against all the things
that I represent and all the things that my community represents,
and was actively trying to, you know, erase us from
either the conversation, from culture, from life from and is
(07:40):
a part of the structures that are currently in place
that are like actively like trying to take us all out.
And so for me, it's hard for me to sit
in like a deep sadness or kind of get caught
up in the theatrics of it, because that's the thing
about Charlie Kirk. He understood the theatrics of his work. Yeah,
he understood there was a performance aspecting, Yes he could.
(08:03):
He was all about and even the event that he
was doing he was meeting with students that have a
one on one kind of like you believe s conversation.
But that's performative, that is theatrical. You're not actually he's
not actually there to hear an opposite view. Right to share,
to make money.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
It's totally true. But ultimately, you know, that's what we
all boil down to in our evil as society. But
even if you don't have empathy at the same level
that I do, I think one thing that is ultimately
revealed in this is how hypocritical people are on both sides,
because you know, I have had dead children in my
(08:43):
face for years now.
Speaker 5 (08:44):
I've had like shit I woke.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Up to every day for years now, and it's so
fucked up to see that and the people who are
you know, there's this, always, always, this argument that's thrown
at specifically LGBTQ people who are advocating for free Palestine,
about well, why would you fight for people who would
have you dead if they had power? And that's what
(09:07):
it boils down to here for me is like on
my gut instinct, my gut reaction to it was like, fuck, yes,
I'm happy Charlie Kirk is dead. That's one less destructive voice.
And then like taking a step back and realizing that, like,
you know, shooting all the people who oppose you, unless
you got all the guns, girl, it is not the
way to solve the problem. And I will say I
(09:30):
don't think liberals, left leaning people are the people with
the gun power in this country.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Well, I think and I think what it speaks like
larger to because it's not just about like we have
a difference of opinion. It's not just about like it's
I want I don't want you alive, right, like they
can death ultimately. And so it's like when we discuss
a figure like a Charlie Kirk, it wasn't just that
like his views were divisive.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Right, like a rush Limball views.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
Were divisive, right, you know what I'm saying, Like.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
There's a very intentional attempt to un.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Alive people through their rhetoric, right, And I think that
is what was the like the that's what's been the
hardest part for me to parse, Like in watching how
people are like, you know, like we shouldn't just die
because of the differences of opinion. And I'm like, but
a person saying that I was better off during slavery
is not a difference of opinion.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
But we're also not doing better if we're stoking.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
The fire though, right, A person saying that we were
better off during Jim Crow and that there was that's
not a difference of opinion when we were being lynched, right,
because Jim Crow we were being lynched, right, So you
literally said we were better off during the period of
intense lynchings.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
And it's so interesting.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
The first thing I thought of, like after everything happened,
the first thing I thought of was the immeatyl sign
that continuously gets shot, right, like all these years, like
we're still talking about a twelve year old boy who
did nothing wrong, and that they still people who are
still in that particular party will shoot this sign as
a reminder to us that we are never safe and
(11:05):
we're never going to be safe.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Right, the immediate reaction being will attack.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
HBCUs insane, Like what we have to do with Utah
has one point is literally black people make up one
point six percent of the population in Utah and the
first reaction was attack black colleges. I think I agree
with you in many ways about like just how how
we are supposed to process this, But I think apathy
(11:29):
is a feeling that I get a lot more often
than not, where I just don't feel anything anymore.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
To these type of situations.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Like I have my opinions, and I think we all
have our thoughts, but like, but.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
That's why, that's why I think, really the fucking answer
for this is not to be pouring online every second
everything that happens, because we've already had like like at
least five years of social media studies out in the
world being like, yeah, the more you're on this shit,
the less you know how to relate to other people.
(12:04):
And so like, the empathy that you hear from me
isn't about like, oh, I like, I mean, on some
level it is because it's still murders fucking horrific, and
I'm so sorry.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
If it's it's awful. I don't. I totally agree with you.
I had no one wants to witness that. I don't
think the human brain is not designed to witness what
we have witnessed.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
But deeper than that, I think the issue is that,
like the fact that apathy is like the most empathy
you can get out of.
Speaker 5 (12:31):
All of us, it's just so scary.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
I agree, And and the way that I personally I am
trying to fight that is by I'm plugging off of
that because like, even if I come across crazy ass
racist trumpers in real life, bitch say something, do something
they like in your in your uber like, they're not
going to do anything more than tell you to get out. Like,
so we would rather have those I mean, we hope,
(12:55):
But if if they're plugged in online too, if everybody
is just living in the same bubble and not actually
experiencing what the fuck humanity is like, like close your
goddamn phone for one second and talk to a stranger
and then tell somebody about what that experience was like,
whether or not they agreed with you.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
I think what's really interesting for me because I totally
agree with you on a few different levels.
Speaker 5 (13:21):
EV.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
And I also I think what's been revealing about all
of this in the past couple of days is like,
no one I don't think really understands what political violence means. Yes,
because I think everything it's just like only talking about
it in from like a like a murderous standpoint, but
like the fact that I can't get like health insurance
(13:42):
are like people can't get health insurance are the fact
that people can't even get their lunches paid for, you know,
like the fact that people are struggling in the ways
that we are struggling in now, And I'm like, we
we have a we're pretty privileged in a lot of
different ways. But the fact that I have so many
community around me that are struggling are these are versions
(14:03):
of the political violence that is happening every single day
that we have become completely like, oh, that's just the norm.
And so it's it's unfortunate that a lot of this
has been kind of like left out of the conversation
because the pendulum has swung so far to the extremes
of what political violence looks like. It doesn't necessarily allow
for any of the actual necessary nuances that are happening
(14:27):
and occurring in our daily lives, Like so much stress
and so many things that are currently happening in our
lives is a part and a reflection and a trickle
down effect of the things that are happening at the top.
And it's just there's no room for it, because then
it becomes this juggling of like, well, who's suffering and
who's oppressed the most, And I'm just like, bitch, I
(14:49):
just want to bring I just want the people around
me to be able to breathe, and like, no, there's
no place to do that, which I think is connected
to the fact when we're choosing appathy and we're also
seeing everyone go to the extremes of murder and things
like that. So it's I don't even know how we
really get from off this fucking timeline because this is
(15:11):
just what it is. We We're not even how many
years has Trump been in the office. Girl, I'm like
we're still at his part. Just like there's so much
more that we just are not like I don't think
we are actually prepared for. And I hate to sound
like this doom and gloom, but bitch, like this is
the true all I had.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
I had that same conversation with like three different hookups
in the last twenty four hours, and I.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Love that that's what your hookups are happening, like that
you're having these yeah, because that's like where we're going.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
It's like, hey, that was a really nice massage. Thank you. Also,
now that I worked out all that stress, I want
to talk about Charlie Kirk a little.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
This is what you can't expect.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Saying that, And now back to my conversation with EVI
oddly and Ryan Mitchell.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
Now, Ryan, I do have a question for you though,
because you work with the NFL.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
Oh, yeah, I do.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
And I find it interesting like that, you know, like
you have like your programming that goes on with the NFL,
which you know, it's like around BTQ and the things.
And then I believe there was you know, we're watching
sports moments. Do moments of silence for a white supremacist?
Speaker 4 (16:36):
How do you navigate.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
The space of the work that you do, which has
been great and the events your throne and all the
work that you do with the organization which has been
amazing versus was it shut up and dribble was to
Lebron James, right, and you know Kaepernick with the kneeling,
you know, and then this happens and it's like moments
of islands for It's like, well, I thought y'all said
(17:02):
this wasn't political. Yees, So okay, I'm about to shut
up and turn off everything. No, Okay, So yeah, I
am the NFL's first LGBTQ brand ambassador. I've been that
for the past two seasons, and currently I'm not occupying.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
That space as much as I was. But I did
create a program called The Exchange that was all about
connecting with the teams and connecting with the queer community
and having like a really beautiful cultural dinner experience where
we actually have these nuanced conversations about our place in
this world that historically has told us we don't deserve
to be here and we shouldn't be here, and connecting
(17:45):
the folks who are actually on the ground doing the work,
the queer folks and the trans folks who are on
the ground doing the work, connecting them to opportunities and
possibilities to help amplify their work. And then I take
them to the first you know.
Speaker 4 (17:56):
Football footballgram.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Yeah, and so like that was. That's been a really
great experience and it's a legacy that I've i have
left with that league as they're continuing to do that program.
But I think when I first made that decision to
really kind of get into partnership with them, it was
it took me a very long time to say yes,
because I knew the complicated nature of one the fact
(18:18):
you're not just getting someone who is queer, you're actually
getting people who are checking You're getting me someone who
is checking off the boxes of that part of the
communities that you have historically had issues with black people
and queer and you're kind of getting you're checking it
off with me, and I'm i'm, i'm, I'm I'm actually
becoming this bridge for you in a way to actually
help you regain the trust of these communities that you
(18:40):
kind of have fucked over historically. And it's been interesting.
There are some really incredible people in the inside who
are who get it and who understand the hurdles that
they are going through. And I think it's always important
to have that those folks inside who are trying to
do the work. But it's hard when at the end
(19:01):
of the day, you see a player or you see
a team take a stance, or the fandom, the toxic
as fandom of the NFL drag you know, queer people
have an awful take over. A queer cheerleader are a
male cheerleader? Yeah, and so it's a yes, and right,
It's like, yes, I'm doing incredible work. Yes, the league
(19:22):
is doing incredible work, but also the culture is what
the culture is already, unfortunately, and I'm trying to help
them find more ways to be louder than the existing
culture that it is. But also sometimes it's also best
to just ignore that shit and be like I'm doubling down,
and the NFL has done that. I'm not gonna lie
to you like I'm I've actually been quite shocked when
(19:44):
we've seen like folk organizations and entities like Target, like
roll back on DEI, and then you have the NFL
actually being like, actually around, We're actually going to stand
Tinto's down and continue to do the work that we're
doing with you. That's really important.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
I'm not trying to jeopardize your job, but the I mean,
somebody at the top is totally getting their dick sucked.
Speaker 5 (20:03):
And I would like to say right.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Now if you need any new openings, La.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
No, I mean, yeah, I just I think it's it's
it's really really difficult to watch it. And I think
that's a lot that goes into a lot of the
reasons why it's not that I won't ever work with
the NFL again, because I most definitely will, and planning
on for the Super Bowl, which is going to be
in San Francisco. But I think it's just it's a
(20:35):
it's it's difficult, It's it's hard to navigate. It's really
hard to navigate all the systemic structures that are stopping
me from being able to do the work. And then
also like the cultural structures that are making it difficult
for like queer folks, that intersectional queer folks to be
able to exist in this space. But I don't give
a fuck. I'm going to continue to do everything that
I can do possibly to make sure in any space
(20:57):
that we have the opportunity to shine and take up
as much space as possible.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
I also want to take it to you now, ev right, like,
because you have had to navigate that space when it
comes to drag race, when it comes to fandoms, when
it comes to I mean, we go a lot on
time we see the racism, you know, between black drag
(21:30):
queens and white drag queens, and you have a very
large following, you are very outspoken, and so you know
you've had to have a lot of nuance in that space.
It's like in publishing, publishing is mainly white. I've had
to have nuance and can I say this thing publicly
and not potentially affect my moral clause because yeah, people
(21:53):
don't understand, but I'm putting it out there. Like when
we do these deals and things, there's always a morality
clause unless your lawyer could get it. A lawyer could
get it tossed, which I've had good age is a
good lawyer some time that that language gets very specific
about things that I am going to talk about publicly
so that I don't lose my job and I do not.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Lose my contracts, because that's also the reason why they
want you. How you had to navigate that.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Yeah, it's the hard balance to find because everything has
a morality clause, whether or not it says that your
job has a morality clause, this relationship has a morality clause.
And for those of you who aren't familiar with what
that is, a morality clause is a big blanket statement
in a legal contract saying hey, if you ever do
(22:35):
anything that like we deem immoral, and that is so vague.
If you ever do anything that we deem immoral, that
is cause to terminate this contract. And that was actually
the first the first thing I ever bitched about after
reading contracts was being like, girl, i am a drag queen.
Number one, Like, girl, I'm an all drag queen, like
(22:58):
I'm coming out here with my nipples and asshole out
like I'm and you ask me to sign a morality
clause when queer people, black people like femmes are illegal illegal, Well,
I'm saying illegal because there have been just there's been
a history of laws that remove our humanity, that keep
(23:22):
us in places of subjugation, and we are moral. And
I will say this one point is I prefer the
part of the timeline we're in right now where my
enemies are out loud and feel like they have a
place to express themselves because in places like where we
were in between Trump presidencies, the one thing that these
(23:44):
crazy ass magat fucks got right is that things did
not get better. You cannot expect the world to change
just because you shout at it. And I think where
I've always found myself as an artist applies to so
many situations in life, which is, give people forty nine
percent of what they want to see. You have to
(24:04):
meet people somewhere, but bitch, you better give yourself that
extra two percent like you better give fifty one percent
of what you know to be true, So you might
have to like sneak in the door of this like
white elite patriarchy, but like when you're in there, they're
going to be forced to reconcile with your your humanity.
(24:24):
And I always tie this back to Harvey Milk, who
you know, was a big person urging people to come out,
urging people to like show people around them. And I
actually kind of like coming out for that reason, because
you know, it's nice to meet somebody in their humanity and.
Speaker 5 (24:43):
Then surprise them with all your dirty shit.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
That's so real, No, that is so real. And the
part about like the illegality of our existence right, like
it's which I words, that's what I do for a living.
So it's like being a specific about what it is.
It's like it's not just a moral it's illegal. Like
it's illegal. And there were laws on the books that
(25:11):
made our existence illegal. The laws on the books. You know,
we weren't even people in this country were property.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Right, I mean the laws, the laws on the books
still make us illegal. You know, they still target us
at every level. The way you dress, the way you act.
There was something you said when you were on our
show a couple of weeks back, where you were talking
about the freedom and sexuality and nudity, and that is
what is illegal about being queer is the freedom America
(25:41):
likes to waive its free flag, but only when it
falls under something that white Christian God's eyes. Yeah, and
being queer is about actually being free. It's about being unapologetic,
unashamed of your body, unashamed of your sexuality, and not
afraid to stand right next to somebody who has absolutely
nothing in common with you.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
If everyone could just unlock in that unlocking, I think
that's really where everything will come together, like everything will
like feel just right. But I don't know if we're
going to ever really see that in our lifetimes. You know,
I'm hoping that we are. We are examples. We are
like setting up the tools of what it means to
(26:23):
really be in spaces that have told us that we
should not exist and have explicitly said that we are
illegal if we are going with that language. And I
hope that us doing this right here is a part
of our legacy and having these really important conversations because
me growing up in Laverne, Tennessee, longing for queer community
(26:44):
and longing to like know that, oh my god, if
I actually am who like myself one hundred percent authentically,
I can survive. I can thrive. And I think this
is an example of this being able to see people,
queer folks, black people doing just that.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
And now back to my conversation with Evi Oddley and
Ryan Mitchell. You brought up that you grew up in Tennessee,
and I just find it interesting that Tennessee has become
has become like the the Ohio fer It's become like
this litmus test of yeah things like okay, so like.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
For everything and they're and they're failing.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
That's what I meant by the Ohio for the right.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Like when they started attacking drag shows, like it was Tennessee, right,
it was like the time in Tennessee where they first
went to try and pass the law or whatever, and
it was like Tennessee like okay. But then today, you know,
Trump says the next city we're sitting in the National
Guard to his Memphis, and it's like, how the hell
the Tennessee, Like like, you know, it's just becoming interesting
(27:57):
that like the test of operation and has become Tennessee.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
I mean, Tennessee was always a test in my life,
if I'm being And that's.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Why I'm glad you said, because right, like it's like,
what what has happened in Tennessee?
Speaker 3 (28:11):
Nothing is if I mean honest, nothing is really happening
in Tennessee that wasn't already happening. Like the first time
I was called a nigga with a hard R was
in the third grade in my elementary school and ended
like that was the first time, right, the first time
I saw the Confederate flag being worn as a symbol
of like like you were born the doctor who delivered
it like literal, like you know, like I and like
(28:33):
I always you know, I never really understood because most
of my family's from like midwest Illinois, and my mom
and I moved down to Tennessee, right and it was
that's all live ever and I grew up there, and
so it's always so interesting because when you think about it, yes,
it's historically been the Bible Belt and whatever everything that
(28:55):
comes with that, but then just like any other place,
I feel like it also has a thrive queer, creative community,
like it holds both of these, Like Tennessee's a very
yes and place, which is so weird. I've never really
thought about it like that until now, where I'm like, yeah,
while we are also being attacked and being a race,
we're also having a moment where we're celebrating each other
(29:16):
and like being in space and community with each other.
And so it's always been a part of that my
history in Tennessee. Right, all of these things happening right now,
I think is only happening because the country has kind
of had this like traditional conservative glaze over it, and
now we are just like magnifying the states that were
always sort of like that. Can I ask you really
(29:41):
quickly not to like derail this, but George, how do
you what do you recommend for people who aren't as
like politically savvy it's a good one, and what do
you recommend for them to like, yeah, kind of stay
in the know, are also kind of at least know
what's going on to extent without being burnt out. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
I saw a tweet yesterday where a guy followed He
basically was like, I haven't said much because I actually
am not politically aware enough to say anything. And you know,
he's just being very truthful and very transparent in it,
and another one of my friends, quot tweeted it and
was like, I appreciate you saying this out loud, and
that's not okay anymore.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
You have to know what's going on.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
You have to understand who is affecting you, what is
affecting you, and how it is affecting you. So I
think the first thing is like, we have to get
back to a place where it is okay to read right,
Like I think sometimes.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
The bare minimum, the bear minimum is just real, girl,
we never stopped.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
And I think a lot of times we consume through
video and we consume through you know, and people are
trying to get a point made in ninety seconds for
a topic that needs a read of ten minutes.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
It takes time.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
And so I encourage people that it is okay to
take fifteen minutes out of your day to read articles
about what's happening, because an article can lay it out
for you in a way that someone who was speaking
on it in ninety seconds on TikTok may not be
able to fully give you the nuance.
Speaker 4 (31:21):
Or the breath or the depth of what you need.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
So I think that's number one is getting back to journalism,
which was I used to wake up and see my
parents reading the newspaper. Yeah, that was like their morning
routine was cup of coffee, the Courier News and the
Star Ledger in New Jersey, and they would read the paper.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
I saw a young guy on the plane the other
day with a paper in his hands, and I was shocked.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
I was like, I don't even know where you could
get the paper.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
My parents still get the newspaper every day and read it, right,
generation Yeah, so I think, dang, and I read articles
all day, right, Like it is okay to actually read
the articles too. I think it is okay to not
fully understand everything, right. I think that's where some people
are like, but you gotta fully under It's like, no,
(32:11):
some people don't have the capacity to fully understand anything.
So those of us who do know everything, it is
our job to make some of this digestible and so
that they can be able to fully process it and
fully understand it. And so I think for me, that's
why one of the things I said earlier was I
know I have to do a video because part of
(32:32):
my purpose is to make these big worldly topics that
people are like, I just don't understand any of this
digestible to say this is actually what is happening, and
I can compare it to this time and history that
you may have learned about when you were a kid
to now know how this all connects and dots connect.
But I do think people need to really get at
(32:56):
least a little bit politically engaged, and I think local
politics is where you start. I tell people that all
the time. I understand, you know, people are like, I
ain't voting for this motherfucker for the president. I ain't
voting for this for the got it? Okay, But you
need to know who on your school board. You need
to know who your aldermen is. You need to know
who your maya is, you need to know when city
(33:16):
council meetings are because if you want your day to
day life to change, that's where you need to be.
And so it's reminding them that these big topics, these
big worldly things will always trickle down into your local
community and that's where you have to be most involved.
So even if you aren't a depth enough to understand
(33:37):
the national politics of APAC and Israel and how this
is working and da da da da da, you should
at least understand how it's working. In your city, how
this big thing over here is playing a role, and
why that pothole in front of your house for the
last three years hasn't been fixed Because there's a reason
that that pothole is not fixed, and it could be
tied to the fact that your tax money is going
(33:59):
here and here and here and here and here. But
you need to understand that it's this big thing that
trickles down to this little thing. But once you get
involved in this little thing, at some point that PIHO
can get fixed.
Speaker 3 (34:09):
So I think that's what I was saying. No, that's
perfect so.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
Much well, unplugged from the big ship for a second.
Read the articles unplugged. But then literally, if you're going
to be upset, I want to make a change. It's
sounds so corny, but do it at home. Girl, clean
your room.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
I mean your house. Yeah, but that's really it, right,
Start in your home. Start in your house, Like you know,
we're living in one of the most revealing times. Yes,
and take that how you want to take it. But
I think it's it's revealing where people I thought I knew.
It's revealing where they stand, and it's also revealing where
people I did not think you know, I thought we're
(34:51):
you know, stood somewhere else. Actually go so we're living
in one of the most so important to just sit
back sometimes and just watch and look because that will
really guide you and tell you where you should land
and where you should go at, who you should be around,
and who who is actually doing the reading.
Speaker 4 (35:10):
The reading tea. That's it, everybody.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
We could read you, We read the girl, but we
also need you all to be able to read.
Speaker 4 (35:17):
And we got to bring that cursive.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
And bring back library cards. Girl.
Speaker 4 (35:21):
We got to bring that cursive because.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Take their time to read. You're like, is that an
arn F?
Speaker 2 (35:28):
I mean, I would just appreciate if my nephew is
able to read the Constitution because it is written and
so I think people forget that, like not the most important,
the most important documents in this country are actually written
in cursive and.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
So so are you saying that's legible though, because that
is my one argument is the Constitution looks like it
could have been written by a doctor a lawyer, like
it scribbles like I.
Speaker 4 (35:54):
Would say it is. It is very old script.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
When I could, I could get through it, and it
uses shyer in words that you know.
Speaker 3 (36:02):
You you better hold a feather you try to translate
to find a feather and let a hat give you
the power to translate that screent.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Final question, any words that you'll want to leave for
the people out there, Like you said like things is rough,
things is tough. I know you made a video about
like it's okay to like get off the internet sometimes,
which I do sometimes, like okay, let me go into
my New York Times puzzles and connections and word.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
You know what I've been living for though I have
been living for I mean, yes, I'm getting off the internet,
but sometimes I'm existing in a specific corner of the
Internet on TikTok right now where I am watching nothing
but That's so Raven episodes and it has been everything
to me and has literally giving me. It's like re
(37:03):
energized me at certain moments where I just take, you know,
twenty minutes, thirty minutes to watch this episode and I'm like,
you know what work, This is exactly what I needed
to feel more freshure. And I'm not saying that to
everybody else is just but that is that's what's been
working for me. And I think the key there is
finding something that works for you that re energizes you
(37:25):
and refreshes you, because we need it. If we are
going to continue to like hold all these different things,
if we're going to continue to juggle the complications in
the chaos of life, we have to find that space
and time to re energize ourselves. Ditto.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Really, honestly, find some space to take care of yourself.
I can't help but think the thought that's been in
the back of my head for the past week, honestly
is thinking about the future as as being this very
very scary, doom and gloom place. That's how that's how
I see it. And I'm just so thankful. I'm so
(38:09):
so thankful I have a little bit of life right now.
I'm I'm thankful for all the people around me that
I like get to interact with, and you know, I
let them know in those moments that I'm not gonna
I'm not gonna be here forever and I'm probably never
gonna text you back, but just practicing that, like also
literally finding space to charge myself. But like, if I'm
(38:33):
gonna be draining my battery, I want to pour it
into as many people as possible so we can have
these little conversations and when the world starts burning around you,
you remember that you have a community of people who
are going to trade you food this week for blowjobs,
you know, or like makeup or makeup tips. I think
(38:54):
I think queer queer people are gonna have to get really,
really good at bartering. Okay, girl, So start thinking about
what that closet costs right now?
Speaker 3 (39:03):
That is true, because I got birth and hips.
Speaker 4 (39:15):
I'm gonna thank you for coming off. Fighting Words.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Everybody please listen to the High Key podcast because as
you could hear, it is very high and it's very key.
Thank y'all for being to that. Fighting Words is a
production of iHeart Podcasts in partnership with Best Case Studios.
(39:43):
I'm Georgian Johnson. This episode was produced by Charlotte Morley.
Executive producers are myself and Tweking, with g Guar Song
with Adam Pinkin's and Brick Cats for Best Case Studios.
The theme song was written and composed by Covas Bambianna
and myself original music Vakova. This episode was edited and
(40:04):
scored by Michelle McLeman our. iHeart team is Ali Perry
and Karl Ketel. Following rape, Fighting Words wherever you get
your podcast,
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