November 18, 2025 • 33 mins
George is joined by award-winning journalist Shar Jossell. Shar talks about how Oprah and Wendy Williams influenced her career, about approaching pop culture with a critical lens and how to make sense of the current media environment.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
I used to take my mom's roll on deodorant and
walk from arm to arm of the couch and imitate Oprah.
I used to always, you know, say back in a moment,
just like Oprah.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
And then of course later.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
On, like in high school, I would study Oprah and
look at how she leaned into ask a question. I
would study Diane Sawyer and Katie Kuric and Barbara Walters.
Chan Jozel is an award winning journalist who writes at
the intersection of pop culture in politics. She is the
(00:33):
president of the LA chapter of the National Association of
Black Journalists. Her expertise makes her well placed to understand
the crisis at the heart of journalism today. The media
is in a dark place right now, and I think
that diverse voices and diverse storytelling is the only way
that we can have a sustainable media environment.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Singing and I'm heavy handed to the world.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Take a super brandy, spoking guy who know.
Speaker 4 (01:06):
What the plan is.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Oh became a Latin, you know one to see the
stand me.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
My name is George M.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
Johnson.
Speaker 5 (01:13):
I am the New York Times best selling author of
the book All Boys Are in Blue, which is the
number one most challenged book in the United States. This
is Fighting Words, a show where we take you to
the front lines of the culture wars with the people
who are using their words to make change and.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Who refuse to be silenced. Today's guest charge yourself. How
are you doing today?
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Hi, George. I'm doing pretty well.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
It's a good day and I'm grateful for that, and
I'm so I'm taking it each day at a time,
each step at a time, each moment at a time.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Really, how are you?
Speaker 3 (01:51):
I'm good. I'm good.
Speaker 5 (01:53):
As of this recording, we just got past the first
election cycle since mister Man took all office and Jay
and it is getting very interesting. It was almost like,
can we slow down on fascism anytime? Margaret Tayley Green
is telling the girls it's interesting week.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
It has and I think that that's what's contributing to
some of my my good mood today, Because I started
buying into the notion that all hope was lost. I
become very cynical and very just despondent overall. You know,
the barrage of headlines that we've been been met with
over the past it hasn't even been a year yet,
right since January, it's one little glimmer for me. That's like, Okay,
(02:37):
maybe there still are some people out here that make sense.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Yeah, and the right thing.
Speaker 5 (02:43):
And interestingly, I watched the Supreme Court case over the
tariffs and I said, oh, is that a guardrail? One
can only hope, especially with the decision on it. They're
going to take the case on gay marriage coming up tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Now, so we'll see. So we'll see. But an interesting
week in new cycle. But we always like to start
to show the same way.
Speaker 5 (03:02):
I feel like sometimes our social media precedes us, our
bios precede us, and people don't really know who we are.
So could you let everyone listening know who is charge ofself?
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Oh gosh, you know, shar Is. I am someone who
loves deeply and enjoys the soft moments in life.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
I really relish in that.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
And I say that because this year has taught me
to really, really kind of divest from hustle culture, like
I've talked about it in the past, and this year
made me implemented in practice. So it jumped from theory
to practice. And I've been finding the appreciation in some
of the slowness of this year, even though I've been
I have been frustrated. But that's at my core. I
(03:49):
think who I am, we're all the some of our
own experiences and where I am present day. You know,
I'm a lover and I enjoy enjoy the softness of
a thing. I really struggle with that question outside of
my profession, And so because she prompted me and said
outside of my bio, I'm like, because that's what I
give the public, Like that's all you need to know
(04:10):
about me, an award winning journalist, like saying, and we
leave it there like got us.
Speaker 5 (04:16):
It's like when people ask like, how are you? Sometimes
I'm like, hmm, yeah, how am I?
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Like yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (04:23):
Outside of I'm okay, Like I'm good, Like it's like,
how am I?
Speaker 4 (04:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (04:28):
It's interesting, right because usually I'm on the other side
of the mic with you because you're yeah with me.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
I think this might be the first time that is
the reverse of that.
Speaker 5 (04:39):
But I would love to know what was it from,
like your your earliest experiences of I guess it's like
childhood and growing up that like really informed your decision
or your love.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Of pop culture.
Speaker 5 (04:53):
The thing that was like I want to be in
that space and do that type of journalism yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
For me, I have always been a disciple of pop
culture and what heavily influenced that was me imitating Oprah Winfrey,
and I always know it's true story. I used to
take my mom's roll on deodorant even prior to like
my earliest childhood memories, these are stories from my parents,
aunts and uncles, and I would take my mom's roll
(05:20):
on deodorant and walk from arm to arm of the
couch and imitate Oprah. And it was when Oprah used
to go out into the audience and collar you're on
the air, and my mom said, I used to always,
you know, say back in a moment, just like Oprah
and being I should mention I am from Chicago. So
growing up in the nineties, Oprah and Michael Jordan were
(05:42):
the king and queen of the city. They shifted culture.
And I think just as I grew naturally, you know,
just being at school and the cafeteria table, there's always
some sort of debate going on, whether that's about you know,
girls volleyball, or if you heard the new Destiny's Child
song my case, and so I've always been taken an
(06:03):
interest in been a disciple to pop culture and then
of course later on, like in high school watching The View.
That's when I really got into like the morning shows.
Like I started watching Good Morning America when Diane Sawyer
and Charlie Gibson were the anchors, and you know, Robin
Roberts was just like the reporter. You know, now she's
in the main seat. And so that would be my
(06:23):
morning routine. I got into that maybe like sophomore year
of high school, and I would watch GMA, and if
I was feeling spicy, I would call into school and say,
I'd of course be pretending to be a parent, like
you know, I'm coming in around noon today, and that
is like if the teaser was really good, because Oprah
aired at nine AM.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
In Chicago.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Growing up, it would be GMA from seven to nine,
the Oprah Show from nine to ten, and then The
View from ten to eleven.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
And some days I'd stay home and what this is,
this is pre DVRR. This is pre DVR. So I
would stay home.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
And so I say that to say, just always being
immersed in those conversations and you know, going to the
beauty salon or the barber shop, Like there's always pop culture.
It's always been an ever present presence, and I think
all of our lives and it's just been a desire
for me to be a part of the conversation, especially
when I'm hearing lunacy.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Or something that I think is like an idiotic hot tape. Yeah,
you know, I want to get in there. I want
to jump in there, you know.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
So that's how it started.
Speaker 5 (07:21):
That is funny, especially like you said, pre DVR. Everyone,
my dad got me a DVDVCR player for Christmas, and like,
you're right, Like I would have class and then like
but there was stuff I would want to see and
I would be able to set the VCR to record
while I was not home and then come back after
glass and watch us.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
I would.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
I had like some trauma around that because like I
could never get for whatever reason, I could never get
that to work. So I would specifically buy TVs. This
was me in college. I would buy a TV and
it had to have the VCR and DVD already built
into the TV.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
I remember.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
It made it so much easier to record or set
recordings versus having a separate machine.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
I just never got the hang of it.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
That Now, that's funny.
Speaker 5 (08:08):
So what are some like early experiences for you as
a journalist. Like for me, I came into it much
later in life, but this was something that was already
ingrained in you.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Yeah, for me, my journalism is more so on the
broadcast side. I was someone who I did. I would
do Easter speeches. I also started doing the announcements in
my middle school when I was in seventh grade. You know,
I would, and that's when it was via the phone.
You get there and it was good morning.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
That was me. I loved that.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
And then in high school, the high school that I
went to had a little bit of coin and every
classroom had like a thirty three inch TV and we
had our own news program.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
And I auditioned for that.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yeah, I auditioned for that, and I ended up falling
in love with it even more. I knew I had
gift of gab, and I learned from everyone. I would
study Oprah and look at how she leaned into to
ask a question. I would study Diane Sawyer and Katie
Kuric and Barbara Walters and listen to how they even
(09:15):
did promos.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
I really enjoyed. To this day, broadcast in particular does
not feel like work to me.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
No better.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
You can call me for his.
Speaker 5 (09:26):
Brand and now you worked in like traditional news journalism
before switching to culture, but you had like some rough
experiences and like hard news, Like what were some.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
Of those experiences?
Speaker 5 (09:41):
Asked that because I've been called on MCBC a lot
of times to do certain things. Yeah, anytime I've been
called to do a hard topic with a panel like
it gets very vicious.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
I think most people remember. Like one of my viral moments.
Speaker 5 (09:57):
Was me kind of clapping back at former Senator Frankin
about the Kanye West situation when I told him that
black people couldn't be racist and I was like, we're
we could be prejudiced. I was like, well, we can't
be racist, I mean, and we don't have the power
to and literally got an apology from him publicly, an
apology from Stephanie Rule publicly. Like it could be tough
(10:17):
when you're like they're like literally challenging your existence in
a way. What were like some of those experiences and
like what was it that I guess became the catalyst
for you to be like, you know what, I think
I want to do more entertainment, more pop culture.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Yeah, so I never made it to air for hard news.
I would do segments. In undergrad we had a news channel,
and I would do pop culture because I'm a student of.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
The talk show, you know, Ricky leg like, I'm a
student of the talk show.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
But I also have great respect for news anchors, and
so I can do both. And so I did two
local internships, one in Chicago and one in Oklahoma City.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
And that's what made me determine like, oh I can't,
not that I can't.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
I just I tip my hat to every reporter at
local stations, every anchor at local stations, because the toll
that it takes people don't realize because there's really no
front row seat to the toll that it takes on
your mental And it's funny that you asked me this
question because I just was at cal State Long Beach
(11:21):
and I've screened a documentary called Reporting for Uvaldi, and
there were reporters that were sharing their testimony, some of
which have left the industry altogether because of their treatment
around that with telling their bosses that like.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Hey, I need some time off and their boss is.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Like, well, in this business, you get one day and
then come on back. And so I just noticed certain
things like when I was interning, we didn't man on
the street interviews.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
And I was like, this is what I like to do.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Like I remember when I was interning the Casey Anthony
verdict came down and I loved take into the streets
of Oklahoma City and going around asking people's opinions. Like
I was like, this is it. And I also just
learned during that because I also operate at the beat desk.
You hear every police call come in. You see the
videos without the blur, right, that should be acknowledged as well.
(12:13):
You see, I remember when I was in Oklahoma City
there was a white store owner who ended up shooting
and killing a black boy in the store.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Yeah, and you know there's no blur now, like we
put the blur in.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
The police doesn't like the news station determines all of
that and wouldn't cut the video off and et cetera,
et cetera.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
And it just was too much.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
And then the second internship I did, I was doing
a lot of writing and calling around the five oh
one CE threes and operating this calendar and I was
bored out of my mind with that because I was
just doing that internship practically for the credits, because I
was ready to graduate and didn't want to take any
more classes. But I just determined that I am a
pop culture girly. And the thing is, I can report
the worst of the worst in pop culture. It wasn't
(12:53):
as stressful. It wasn't as stressful. It's like, I'm not
interested in fluff pieces. I'm interested in having cultural critique
and curated conversations around certain things. You know, what's your
opinion on what's happening with like Nicki Minaj and Trump
right now? Like I'm interested in those conversations beyond the reporting.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
And so that's what made me make the shift.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
And I have a deep, profound respect for the industry
as a whole, because not everybody can do both. Yeah,
you know how it is in hard news. You got
to start in the smaller markets and work your way up.
And the thought of me driving past cows on the
way to work and.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Just I was like, I don't know.
Speaker 5 (13:31):
That's why for people who don't under fully understand the
way that it works is you start in very very
obscure markets. Like if you go to Jay School you
get your your degree, you typically end up with your
first job somewhere in the sticks, literally, like either in
the sticks, or you end up in a major city,
(13:53):
but not a major city known for necessarily like news.
You then end up working for an affiliate, whether it's
a Fox, a NBC, a ABC, or CBS on one
of those local stations, and then as you put your
years in, the hopeful expectation is that if you're building
a following around you, they then are like, you might
(14:15):
fare better in this market here which has a reach
of let's say, instead of seventy thousand, yeah, we're gonna
put you in this market that has five hundred thousand yeah,
and then they test you there. So it's like, okay,
so Good Morning America has this position for a segment.
We're going to test you now on Good Morning America
(14:35):
and see if people like you here. And a lot
of people don't understand, like that's the inner workings of
a lot of politics, but it's politics. It's politics.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
And I just I recently my mom had never seen
The Morning Show and we recently binged it together and
watching that, I was telling her see what happened to
Bradley Jackson as a fairy tale, the fact that she
had this meltdown, you know, season one, and had this meltdown.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
And they're like, oh, I like that firecracker.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Let's bring her up to New York City and stick
her in the anchor chair on the morning show.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Like that is a fairy tale.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
And to your point, there's so much internal politic and
so much navigating and negotiating. And I know people who
are career reporters. There are people in Chicago that I
grew up watching twenty something years ago who were in
the field, who are still in the field. And I
take it that that must be where they like to
be because no, seriously, because I'm like, the goal for
(15:29):
me it was the anchorchair. Baby, that is what I
want to do, the anchor chair.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
And now back to my conversation with Charjo Sell. You
do pop culture. Let's be very clear people.
Speaker 5 (16:05):
People oftentimes are like, I'm gonna put sure think about
this because you are not afraid to share your opinion,
never have been afraid to share your opinion, But what
is your approach to pop culture? And I asked that
thinking about some of the controversies, specifically around black media
and their unwillingness to cover certain stories, almost like a
hit list of like we do not talk about this
(16:26):
person and our situations where it's like, oh, we would
love to run this story, but they are not budging
on allowing you to talk about this person.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
I've had a lot of stuff in my career squashed,
and you know, I'm also a veteran red carpet host.
Red carpets are not easy. That's part of the job
I believe in broadcast in any environment is to make
it look easy, to make it look conversational, but that
you have to over prepare and you have to be
prepared for anything, especially if it's live. You got to
(16:58):
be prepared for prompts to go out the wind, to
blow your hair on your lip gloss, like you have
to be prepared.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
There's so much like being on your toes.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
I bring up red carpets because part of my personal
task is how do I come up with a unique
question because it always sucks because certain celebrities, we all
want to know the same thing, or the outlet wants
the sound bite for them, and I don't like repetitious questions.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
I'm also not the type.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
I think it's kind of tarchy to play games on
the red carpet because we got a limited amount of
time to talk to these people before they get bustled
into the venue. So yeah, yeah, you can't be handing
them cubes and game cards and stuff.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
And there's people who do that.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
But I say that to say I've asked questions that
have never made it to air. But I approach pop culture.
I've always approached it with a critical lens. I believe
in being critically engaged. I believe in and having thought
provoking conversation. I don't want to sit around and have
vapid conversation. I also have a deep, deep appreciation for
(18:01):
other opinions. I think it makes for a more robust conversation.
You know, even if I sit on panels and I
think that you're an idiot, I still think that because
I know that we all represent somebody somewhere. There's an
audience for everything. Also, again, a nod to talk shows
that I'm not going to leave Wendy out of the conversation. Yeah,
you know, that hot topic segment was very That kind
(18:23):
of freed me because I realized that Wendy had a
degree in journalism.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
She wasn't just plucked from obscurity.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
And when I really started buckling down, I was a
casual fan when she was on the radio because that
was an airing in Chicago, Like you could listen online,
but I grew a love for her.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
In Jersey, so we listened.
Speaker 5 (18:41):
Yeah, we sat in the car when they did that
interview with Superhead, me and my mother.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
We did not get out of the car.
Speaker 5 (18:48):
She was like, no, we listened into this, And I said,
we sat, Me and her sat in that car to
get and listen to that interview. And I will just
never forget when Superhead left the studio and she started
spraying the light sow and she was like, spray over there.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
She was like that was no. She was like, I
spray over to get over there with the lights song.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
I was like, yo, I'm jealous of that.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Honestly, I'm jealous that because a lot of this stuff
came to me retroactively because it lives on YouTube. But
I say that to say TV Wendy is when I
really really fell in love with her. It freed me
where it's like, oh, we can talk about pop culture right,
and we can also give our opinions even if the
sound bite is small. Wendy's opinions would be two sentences,
(19:31):
could pack pack a punch clap if you think she
should suffer that is that, you know all of that.
Speaker 5 (19:38):
I just saw a clip on on Twitter and it
was like clap it through like Sierra and Everybody's like,
whoa she said, and why I not buy her music?
And everybody, well, I think, Wendy used to say, and yes,
I always say, well she found out about Jamie Flox's
baby from Garcabo is one of my Wow. They were interviews.
How she got that tea just that quick? She spoken
(20:01):
to Jamie because you got so conjo. Yeah, just all
the babies, she said, what baby, that's it. Wendy was good.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
She was just abology in my business like a Wendy interview.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
She was but yeah, briend, yes, well but do you
know what she was masterful in that we could think
of Whitney Houston, we can think of Judge Mathis these
hot headed interviews, and even then she was still in
control because you're the one Matt calling me all different
types of names and crackheads and da da da da,
and I measured and I'm saying, well, well, what's wrong, Judge?
You know, like even then she was still in the
(20:34):
driver's seat while getting chewed up, she was still because
she recognized this is this is currency. This is cultural currency.
This is and granted I don't take the same approach
as Wendy. I'm just saying that that the visibility and
taking a dive into her career kind of freed me
to be like, oh, I can critically engage with even
the most minuscule of topics.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
You can still peel back.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
And then I also have the academic background where it's like,
you got to know your history. Yeah, if you know
your history, there it's a root cause to everything.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
And so that's how I approach it.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
There can be robust conversations about even just the most
minuscule of choices with pop culture.
Speaker 5 (21:19):
How do you feel about the current censorship happening? You know,
it shouldn't have taken it to get to Jimmy Kimmel
for people to be like, oh, I also feel like
him being the face of censorship in the face of
a person like me who has literally been fighting censorship
for the last four years and so many other black
(21:40):
authors and queer authors who have literally been attacked for censorship,
and then it gets to him and then all of
a sudden, it's like this big fighting for freedom and speech,
and it's like, hmmm, the face of this is who's
really under attack because had he lost his show, he
got fifty.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
Million in that word, yeah, lose my book. I don't
have that thing.
Speaker 5 (22:02):
Yes, So how do you feel with the current fight
against censorship and like what we should be doing?
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Thank you for this question, because as president of NABJLA,
this is a never ending conversation, especially because.
Speaker 5 (22:17):
That is that is the National Association of Black Journalists
of Los Angeles, Los Angeles. Is the president of yeah,
Los Angeles j LA chapter.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Yeah, And this is something that is particularly particularly personal,
right because I'm currently a freelancer, and the majority of
my members of the members of the organization, we over
index as freelancers. You know, I'm squinting right, We're not
in newsrooms. I know that it's a systemic failure, which
I have to remind myself just as much as I
(22:48):
have to remind students that I meet with who are frustrated. Understandably,
you get that piece of paper and you're ready to
hit the ground running. You walk across that stage, flip
that tassel, and you're ready to hit the ground running,
and it simply is just not there for you. Even
if you did have a great relationship at your internship
that you just did like it is. It's wild how
(23:09):
positions are being consolidated. We're being stripped of equity, not
that we even really had real equity. I feel like
the sweet spot for equity for any marginalized group was
around like twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, era twenty seventeen. But
I will say I think that Jimmy Kimmel elicited such
a response because I mean, on top of him being
(23:29):
a white man, we had not seen an example like
that where one day you can deal in mind you
the Jimmy Kimmel cancelation, the temporary cancelation that was midweek. Yeah,
it's not something that it was like here today, gone tomorrow.
We're not airing the show that is frightening to a
lot of people, myself included. And so it's one of
those things where I do feel like journalists are under
(23:52):
attack of any group that's not white, cisgender, able, bodied,
and heterosexual. You're under attack. Your beat is under a tact.
I always say that can't nobody tell our stories like us?
And that's not necessarily to say that you need to
have a certain lived experience to tell a story.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
But I would prefer it.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
It makes me think of all the conversations that keep
happening around trans people and trans bodies, and no trans
people are in the room, no trans people are quoted
in the article, no trans people are on the MSNBC
panel or the CNN panel. You know, people sitting around
talking about this, that, and the other without the lived experience.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
And I don't think that would happen with any other group.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
I don't imagine people sitting around talking about the rights
or lack thereof of black people and there's no black
people on the panel. I know that it's happened, and
it probably continues to happen in certain sectors, but the
overwhelming majority will call something like that out because what
authority do you have to speak on this right? And
so I'd be lying to you if I said that
(24:50):
I was not scared they're gonna have to pry journalism
from my hands. I love this field. I have dedicated
my entire adult life to this field. I am very
frustrated at the thought of possibly having to pivot, which
I probably will.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
I'm being honest, I probably will have to pivot.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
There's already no money in the industry we're seeing what's
happening with CBS, and very wise, it seems like ABC.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
It seems like ABC.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Is the only one that that is still kind of
doing the right thing. Now they have their flaws, but
with everything happening with CBS, and then we just saw
the headlines about how NBC turned out the lights on
all of their auxiliary groups, NBC out NBC Black, NBC like, yeah,
it's gone. And then we already know what Fox News gives.
(25:39):
But ABC they still have Kimmel, they still have the
view for now. It's just it's very, very scary because
ten years ago I had a certain dream, it still
felt attainable, it's still felt in reach, and now it
does not. I feel like a lot of black people
and people of marginalized groups feel our position to feel
(26:02):
like a liability of sorts if we hire you, right.
I also feel that people who are racist are more
empowered to discriminate because who you gonna tell?
Speaker 2 (26:11):
And if you do tell somebody, what's gonna be done.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Yeah, it seems like there's a whole system, there's a
whole network of protection there. I'm not going to lose
anything for discriminating against you, and I wouldn't be surprised
if the Supreme Court made that legal if it's not
already legal. So I think about federal protections. The media
is in a dark place right now, and I think
that diverse voices and diverse storytelling is the only way
that we can have a sustainable media environment. We can't
(26:37):
just have this one track way of reporting things. And
even with what happened with teen Vogue, how disappointing, how disappointing.
Gosh that broke my heart with teen Vogue ending in
the way that it did, and because they had some
of the most biting and some of the most sharp
political commentary and now it's gone.
Speaker 5 (26:56):
Shout out to Yes, was the the person who gave
me the greenlight on some of my first.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Articles for Yeah, and Philip Accardi.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
And PHILIPCCARTI, so excuse me, yes, and Philipogardi as well.
Speaker 4 (27:08):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Yeah, It's one of those things for me where I'm scared.
I'd be lying to you if I if I said
that I was not scared. This year has been very
trying for not only myself but everybody that I know
that that's in journalism, whether you're writing or speaking. It's
been very trying and the future depending on the day.
For me personally, depending on the day, the future feels
(27:30):
grim or the future feels hopeful. Yeah, and it's not
as easy. My final point is it's not as easy
as creating your own no.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
Yeah, no.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
And I'm someone who has never desired to be an
influencer or an entrepreneur. I actually like the structure of
a guaranteed check. Like I said, I'm trying to divest
from hustle culture. It's just not as easy, like if
we're already disproportionately affected by certain systemic barriers. When I
think about us just having access to certain resources, there's
(28:01):
just certain undeniable barriers that black and brown and marginalized
people face with creating their own media companies. And I
think it's disingenuous to suggest that without exploring some people
do want a corporate check. I do like financial security,
yeah yeah, and that includes corporate media and getting a
(28:24):
nice paycheck on the first and the fifteenth or whatever,
you know.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
And so yeah, that's what it is for me personally.
Speaker 5 (28:30):
The reason I wanted to have this conversation today was
because I do think that where we are today, like
it's just so important that like us as black journalists
really start to come together to be like, Okay, it's
tough on all of us, but like, what are our resources?
Speaker 3 (28:43):
How do we move together?
Speaker 2 (28:45):
There needs to be an indictment on crabs in a
barrel mentality.
Speaker 3 (28:48):
Because we don't have to fight each other for this.
Speaker 4 (28:51):
We don't.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
And you know what, there needs to be a collective
reckoning around misogyny, transphobia, homophobia, like we need to move
as one band, one sound.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
That is the only.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Way that black journalists are going to survive the coming years.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
We literally need each other.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
We literally are going to have to be community based
without bigoted biases.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
And now back to my conversation with char Joe Sell.
Speaker 5 (29:45):
All right to close us out, Oh my god, this
is See this is the type of conversation that just
you just be talking and talking talking to you look
up and it's like, oh girl, we've we've been on
the phone for an hour.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
We've been on a phone for an hour.
Speaker 5 (29:56):
We always like to close out the show with any
like words that you may live by, any quotes you
live by that you think may help other people out there.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
So what's coming to mind is from one of my
good friends, doctor Kia, a host of Getting Grown podcast.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
She always says, I am safe and I have what
I need.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
I use that as a grounding technique, and what I
would tell everyone is, I know in addition to that,
I know that things can get very confusing and very rocky,
and especially if you're in this industry. And I always
remind myself one of my fundamental principles that I adopted
via my parents when I was like in second grade.
But I feel like it has carried me throughout my life.
(30:37):
It's what's for me is for me, right, and there's
no one that can come in between that. Like there's
been times where I feel like or I've been on
the way of negotiating a deal or whatever, and maybe
someone comes in and stomps on it or it gets
taken away from me. Even in my most painful moments,
I'm reminded that.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
That was not for me, and it's okay. There's better
coming as well.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
That's what I've always got to say as well, even
if it hasn't necessarily arrived yet.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
I have to believe in my core that better is coming.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
It's just what's for me is for me, and there's
no saboteur there's no business decision, there's no hiccup, no traffic,
no nothing. If that sands in the way, then it
ultimately was not for me. And that is okay, no
matter how painful that might feel in the moment. And
I'm speaking professionally and even personally right because men have
come and gone, friends have coming gone, you just honor
(31:29):
that season, honor them, You honor that season. That's not
to say that that people also can't circle the block,
or institutions can't circle the block, and then you deal
with that if and when that happens, but you honor
the season, and you release it and you move on
with your life and trust that there is always better
to come.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
That's what I'll say.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
Yes, I love that.
Speaker 5 (31:51):
I love that, shar Thank you for being on the show.
I love you and appreciate you. Chart was before things
was blowing up for me. Would be one of the
first people like George on an interview for this. This
was before I had a platform and Charlotte was lending
me her So I'm just grateful to even be able
to live mine back.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Thank you, my friend.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
I deeply appreciate you, and I have such a profound
respect to you. And your contributions not only to the field,
but your work in general. I'm in awe of you
and all that you've been able to accomplish.
Speaker 4 (32:17):
So Yes, Yeah.
Speaker 5 (32:36):
Fighting Words is a production of iHeart Podcasts in partnership
with Best's Case Studios. I'm Georgian Johnson. This episode was
produced by Charlotte Morley. Executive producers are myself and Tweaky
Puchi Guar Song with Adam Pinkers and Brick Cats for
Best Case Studios. The theme song was written and composed
by Covas Banbianna and myself.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
Original music by A. Kvas. This episode was.
Speaker 5 (33:02):
Edited and scored by Max Michael Miller. Our Heart team
is Ali Perry and Carl Ketel. Following Rake Fighting Words
Wherever you get your podcast
I used to take my mom's roll on deodorant and
walk from arm to arm of the couch and imitate Oprah.
I used to always, you know, say back in a moment,
just like Oprah.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
And then of course later.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
On, like in high school, I would study Oprah and
look at how she leaned into ask a question. I
would study Diane Sawyer and Katie Kuric and Barbara Walters.
Chan Jozel is an award winning journalist who writes at
the intersection of pop culture in politics. She is the
(00:33):
president of the LA chapter of the National Association of
Black Journalists. Her expertise makes her well placed to understand
the crisis at the heart of journalism today. The media
is in a dark place right now, and I think
that diverse voices and diverse storytelling is the only way
that we can have a sustainable media environment.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Singing and I'm heavy handed to the world.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Take a super brandy, spoking guy who know.
Speaker 4 (01:06):
What the plan is.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Oh became a Latin, you know one to see the
stand me.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
My name is George M.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
Johnson.
Speaker 5 (01:13):
I am the New York Times best selling author of
the book All Boys Are in Blue, which is the
number one most challenged book in the United States. This
is Fighting Words, a show where we take you to
the front lines of the culture wars with the people
who are using their words to make change and.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Who refuse to be silenced. Today's guest charge yourself. How
are you doing today?
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Hi, George. I'm doing pretty well.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
It's a good day and I'm grateful for that, and
I'm so I'm taking it each day at a time,
each step at a time, each moment at a time.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Really, how are you?
Speaker 3 (01:51):
I'm good. I'm good.
Speaker 5 (01:53):
As of this recording, we just got past the first
election cycle since mister Man took all office and Jay
and it is getting very interesting. It was almost like,
can we slow down on fascism anytime? Margaret Tayley Green
is telling the girls it's interesting week.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
It has and I think that that's what's contributing to
some of my my good mood today, Because I started
buying into the notion that all hope was lost. I
become very cynical and very just despondent overall. You know,
the barrage of headlines that we've been been met with
over the past it hasn't even been a year yet,
right since January, it's one little glimmer for me. That's like, Okay,
(02:37):
maybe there still are some people out here that make sense.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Yeah, and the right thing.
Speaker 5 (02:43):
And interestingly, I watched the Supreme Court case over the
tariffs and I said, oh, is that a guardrail? One
can only hope, especially with the decision on it. They're
going to take the case on gay marriage coming up tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Now, so we'll see. So we'll see. But an interesting
week in new cycle. But we always like to start
to show the same way.
Speaker 5 (03:02):
I feel like sometimes our social media precedes us, our
bios precede us, and people don't really know who we are.
So could you let everyone listening know who is charge ofself?
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Oh gosh, you know, shar Is. I am someone who
loves deeply and enjoys the soft moments in life.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
I really relish in that.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
And I say that because this year has taught me
to really, really kind of divest from hustle culture, like
I've talked about it in the past, and this year
made me implemented in practice. So it jumped from theory
to practice. And I've been finding the appreciation in some
of the slowness of this year, even though I've been
I have been frustrated. But that's at my core. I
(03:49):
think who I am, we're all the some of our
own experiences and where I am present day. You know,
I'm a lover and I enjoy enjoy the softness of
a thing. I really struggle with that question outside of
my profession, And so because she prompted me and said
outside of my bio, I'm like, because that's what I
give the public, Like that's all you need to know
(04:10):
about me, an award winning journalist, like saying, and we
leave it there like got us.
Speaker 5 (04:16):
It's like when people ask like, how are you? Sometimes
I'm like, hmm, yeah, how am I?
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Like yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (04:23):
Outside of I'm okay, Like I'm good, Like it's like,
how am I?
Speaker 4 (04:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (04:28):
It's interesting, right because usually I'm on the other side
of the mic with you because you're yeah with me.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
I think this might be the first time that is
the reverse of that.
Speaker 5 (04:39):
But I would love to know what was it from,
like your your earliest experiences of I guess it's like
childhood and growing up that like really informed your decision
or your love.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Of pop culture.
Speaker 5 (04:53):
The thing that was like I want to be in
that space and do that type of journalism yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
For me, I have always been a disciple of pop
culture and what heavily influenced that was me imitating Oprah Winfrey,
and I always know it's true story. I used to
take my mom's roll on deodorant even prior to like
my earliest childhood memories, these are stories from my parents,
aunts and uncles, and I would take my mom's roll
(05:20):
on deodorant and walk from arm to arm of the
couch and imitate Oprah. And it was when Oprah used
to go out into the audience and collar you're on
the air, and my mom said, I used to always,
you know, say back in a moment, just like Oprah
and being I should mention I am from Chicago. So
growing up in the nineties, Oprah and Michael Jordan were
(05:42):
the king and queen of the city. They shifted culture.
And I think just as I grew naturally, you know,
just being at school and the cafeteria table, there's always
some sort of debate going on, whether that's about you know,
girls volleyball, or if you heard the new Destiny's Child
song my case, and so I've always been taken an
(06:03):
interest in been a disciple to pop culture and then
of course later on, like in high school watching The View.
That's when I really got into like the morning shows.
Like I started watching Good Morning America when Diane Sawyer
and Charlie Gibson were the anchors, and you know, Robin
Roberts was just like the reporter. You know, now she's
in the main seat. And so that would be my
(06:23):
morning routine. I got into that maybe like sophomore year
of high school, and I would watch GMA, and if
I was feeling spicy, I would call into school and say,
I'd of course be pretending to be a parent, like
you know, I'm coming in around noon today, and that
is like if the teaser was really good, because Oprah
aired at nine AM.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
In Chicago.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Growing up, it would be GMA from seven to nine,
the Oprah Show from nine to ten, and then The
View from ten to eleven.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
And some days I'd stay home and what this is,
this is pre DVRR. This is pre DVR. So I
would stay home.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
And so I say that to say, just always being
immersed in those conversations and you know, going to the
beauty salon or the barber shop, Like there's always pop culture.
It's always been an ever present presence, and I think
all of our lives and it's just been a desire
for me to be a part of the conversation, especially
when I'm hearing lunacy.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Or something that I think is like an idiotic hot tape. Yeah,
you know, I want to get in there. I want
to jump in there, you know.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
So that's how it started.
Speaker 5 (07:21):
That is funny, especially like you said, pre DVR. Everyone,
my dad got me a DVDVCR player for Christmas, and like,
you're right, Like I would have class and then like
but there was stuff I would want to see and
I would be able to set the VCR to record
while I was not home and then come back after
glass and watch us.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
I would.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
I had like some trauma around that because like I
could never get for whatever reason, I could never get
that to work. So I would specifically buy TVs. This
was me in college. I would buy a TV and
it had to have the VCR and DVD already built
into the TV.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
I remember.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
It made it so much easier to record or set
recordings versus having a separate machine.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
I just never got the hang of it.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
That Now, that's funny.
Speaker 5 (08:08):
So what are some like early experiences for you as
a journalist. Like for me, I came into it much
later in life, but this was something that was already
ingrained in you.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Yeah, for me, my journalism is more so on the
broadcast side. I was someone who I did. I would
do Easter speeches. I also started doing the announcements in
my middle school when I was in seventh grade. You know,
I would, and that's when it was via the phone.
You get there and it was good morning.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
That was me. I loved that.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
And then in high school, the high school that I
went to had a little bit of coin and every
classroom had like a thirty three inch TV and we
had our own news program.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
And I auditioned for that.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yeah, I auditioned for that, and I ended up falling
in love with it even more. I knew I had
gift of gab, and I learned from everyone. I would
study Oprah and look at how she leaned into to
ask a question. I would study Diane Sawyer and Katie
Kuric and Barbara Walters and listen to how they even
(09:15):
did promos.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
I really enjoyed. To this day, broadcast in particular does
not feel like work to me.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
No better.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
You can call me for his.
Speaker 5 (09:26):
Brand and now you worked in like traditional news journalism
before switching to culture, but you had like some rough
experiences and like hard news, Like what were some.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
Of those experiences?
Speaker 5 (09:41):
Asked that because I've been called on MCBC a lot
of times to do certain things. Yeah, anytime I've been
called to do a hard topic with a panel like
it gets very vicious.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
I think most people remember. Like one of my viral moments.
Speaker 5 (09:57):
Was me kind of clapping back at former Senator Frankin
about the Kanye West situation when I told him that
black people couldn't be racist and I was like, we're
we could be prejudiced. I was like, well, we can't
be racist, I mean, and we don't have the power
to and literally got an apology from him publicly, an
apology from Stephanie Rule publicly. Like it could be tough
(10:17):
when you're like they're like literally challenging your existence in
a way. What were like some of those experiences and
like what was it that I guess became the catalyst
for you to be like, you know what, I think
I want to do more entertainment, more pop culture.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Yeah, so I never made it to air for hard news.
I would do segments. In undergrad we had a news channel,
and I would do pop culture because I'm a student of.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
The talk show, you know, Ricky leg like, I'm a
student of the talk show.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
But I also have great respect for news anchors, and
so I can do both. And so I did two
local internships, one in Chicago and one in Oklahoma City.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
And that's what made me determine like, oh I can't,
not that I can't.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
I just I tip my hat to every reporter at
local stations, every anchor at local stations, because the toll
that it takes people don't realize because there's really no
front row seat to the toll that it takes on
your mental And it's funny that you asked me this
question because I just was at cal State Long Beach
(11:21):
and I've screened a documentary called Reporting for Uvaldi, and
there were reporters that were sharing their testimony, some of
which have left the industry altogether because of their treatment
around that with telling their bosses that like.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Hey, I need some time off and their boss is.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Like, well, in this business, you get one day and
then come on back. And so I just noticed certain
things like when I was interning, we didn't man on
the street interviews.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
And I was like, this is what I like to do.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Like I remember when I was interning the Casey Anthony
verdict came down and I loved take into the streets
of Oklahoma City and going around asking people's opinions. Like
I was like, this is it. And I also just
learned during that because I also operate at the beat desk.
You hear every police call come in. You see the
videos without the blur, right, that should be acknowledged as well.
(12:13):
You see, I remember when I was in Oklahoma City
there was a white store owner who ended up shooting
and killing a black boy in the store.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Yeah, and you know there's no blur now, like we
put the blur in.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
The police doesn't like the news station determines all of
that and wouldn't cut the video off and et cetera,
et cetera.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
And it just was too much.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
And then the second internship I did, I was doing
a lot of writing and calling around the five oh
one CE threes and operating this calendar and I was
bored out of my mind with that because I was
just doing that internship practically for the credits, because I
was ready to graduate and didn't want to take any
more classes. But I just determined that I am a
pop culture girly. And the thing is, I can report
the worst of the worst in pop culture. It wasn't
(12:53):
as stressful. It wasn't as stressful. It's like, I'm not
interested in fluff pieces. I'm interested in having cultural critique
and curated conversations around certain things. You know, what's your
opinion on what's happening with like Nicki Minaj and Trump
right now? Like I'm interested in those conversations beyond the reporting.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
And so that's what made me make the shift.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
And I have a deep, profound respect for the industry
as a whole, because not everybody can do both. Yeah,
you know how it is in hard news. You got
to start in the smaller markets and work your way up.
And the thought of me driving past cows on the
way to work and.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Just I was like, I don't know.
Speaker 5 (13:31):
That's why for people who don't under fully understand the
way that it works is you start in very very
obscure markets. Like if you go to Jay School you
get your your degree, you typically end up with your
first job somewhere in the sticks, literally, like either in
the sticks, or you end up in a major city,
(13:53):
but not a major city known for necessarily like news.
You then end up working for an affiliate, whether it's
a Fox, a NBC, a ABC, or CBS on one
of those local stations, and then as you put your
years in, the hopeful expectation is that if you're building
a following around you, they then are like, you might
(14:15):
fare better in this market here which has a reach
of let's say, instead of seventy thousand, yeah, we're gonna
put you in this market that has five hundred thousand yeah,
and then they test you there. So it's like, okay,
so Good Morning America has this position for a segment.
We're going to test you now on Good Morning America
(14:35):
and see if people like you here. And a lot
of people don't understand, like that's the inner workings of
a lot of politics, but it's politics. It's politics.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
And I just I recently my mom had never seen
The Morning Show and we recently binged it together and
watching that, I was telling her see what happened to
Bradley Jackson as a fairy tale, the fact that she
had this meltdown, you know, season one, and had this meltdown.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
And they're like, oh, I like that firecracker.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Let's bring her up to New York City and stick
her in the anchor chair on the morning show.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Like that is a fairy tale.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
And to your point, there's so much internal politic and
so much navigating and negotiating. And I know people who
are career reporters. There are people in Chicago that I
grew up watching twenty something years ago who were in
the field, who are still in the field. And I
take it that that must be where they like to
be because no, seriously, because I'm like, the goal for
(15:29):
me it was the anchorchair. Baby, that is what I
want to do, the anchor chair.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
And now back to my conversation with Charjo Sell. You
do pop culture. Let's be very clear people.
Speaker 5 (16:05):
People oftentimes are like, I'm gonna put sure think about
this because you are not afraid to share your opinion,
never have been afraid to share your opinion, But what
is your approach to pop culture? And I asked that
thinking about some of the controversies, specifically around black media
and their unwillingness to cover certain stories, almost like a
hit list of like we do not talk about this
(16:26):
person and our situations where it's like, oh, we would
love to run this story, but they are not budging
on allowing you to talk about this person.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
I've had a lot of stuff in my career squashed,
and you know, I'm also a veteran red carpet host.
Red carpets are not easy. That's part of the job
I believe in broadcast in any environment is to make
it look easy, to make it look conversational, but that
you have to over prepare and you have to be
prepared for anything, especially if it's live. You got to
(16:58):
be prepared for prompts to go out the wind, to
blow your hair on your lip gloss, like you have
to be prepared.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
There's so much like being on your toes.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
I bring up red carpets because part of my personal
task is how do I come up with a unique
question because it always sucks because certain celebrities, we all
want to know the same thing, or the outlet wants
the sound bite for them, and I don't like repetitious questions.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
I'm also not the type.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
I think it's kind of tarchy to play games on
the red carpet because we got a limited amount of
time to talk to these people before they get bustled
into the venue. So yeah, yeah, you can't be handing
them cubes and game cards and stuff.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
And there's people who do that.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
But I say that to say I've asked questions that
have never made it to air. But I approach pop culture.
I've always approached it with a critical lens. I believe
in being critically engaged. I believe in and having thought
provoking conversation. I don't want to sit around and have
vapid conversation. I also have a deep, deep appreciation for
(18:01):
other opinions. I think it makes for a more robust conversation.
You know, even if I sit on panels and I
think that you're an idiot, I still think that because
I know that we all represent somebody somewhere. There's an
audience for everything. Also, again, a nod to talk shows
that I'm not going to leave Wendy out of the conversation. Yeah,
you know, that hot topic segment was very That kind
(18:23):
of freed me because I realized that Wendy had a
degree in journalism.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
She wasn't just plucked from obscurity.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
And when I really started buckling down, I was a
casual fan when she was on the radio because that
was an airing in Chicago, Like you could listen online,
but I grew a love for her.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
In Jersey, so we listened.
Speaker 5 (18:41):
Yeah, we sat in the car when they did that
interview with Superhead, me and my mother.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
We did not get out of the car.
Speaker 5 (18:48):
She was like, no, we listened into this, And I said,
we sat, Me and her sat in that car to
get and listen to that interview. And I will just
never forget when Superhead left the studio and she started
spraying the light sow and she was like, spray over there.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
She was like that was no. She was like, I
spray over to get over there with the lights song.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
I was like, yo, I'm jealous of that.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Honestly, I'm jealous that because a lot of this stuff
came to me retroactively because it lives on YouTube. But
I say that to say TV Wendy is when I
really really fell in love with her. It freed me
where it's like, oh, we can talk about pop culture right,
and we can also give our opinions even if the
sound bite is small. Wendy's opinions would be two sentences,
(19:31):
could pack pack a punch clap if you think she
should suffer that is that, you know all of that.
Speaker 5 (19:38):
I just saw a clip on on Twitter and it
was like clap it through like Sierra and Everybody's like,
whoa she said, and why I not buy her music?
And everybody, well, I think, Wendy used to say, and yes,
I always say, well she found out about Jamie Flox's
baby from Garcabo is one of my Wow. They were interviews.
How she got that tea just that quick? She spoken
(20:01):
to Jamie because you got so conjo. Yeah, just all
the babies, she said, what baby, that's it. Wendy was good.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
She was just abology in my business like a Wendy interview.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
She was but yeah, briend, yes, well but do you
know what she was masterful in that we could think
of Whitney Houston, we can think of Judge Mathis these
hot headed interviews, and even then she was still in
control because you're the one Matt calling me all different
types of names and crackheads and da da da da,
and I measured and I'm saying, well, well, what's wrong, Judge?
You know, like even then she was still in the
(20:34):
driver's seat while getting chewed up, she was still because
she recognized this is this is currency. This is cultural currency.
This is and granted I don't take the same approach
as Wendy. I'm just saying that that the visibility and
taking a dive into her career kind of freed me
to be like, oh, I can critically engage with even
the most minuscule of topics.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
You can still peel back.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
And then I also have the academic background where it's like,
you got to know your history. Yeah, if you know
your history, there it's a root cause to everything.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
And so that's how I approach it.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
There can be robust conversations about even just the most
minuscule of choices with pop culture.
Speaker 5 (21:19):
How do you feel about the current censorship happening? You know,
it shouldn't have taken it to get to Jimmy Kimmel
for people to be like, oh, I also feel like
him being the face of censorship in the face of
a person like me who has literally been fighting censorship
for the last four years and so many other black
(21:40):
authors and queer authors who have literally been attacked for censorship,
and then it gets to him and then all of
a sudden, it's like this big fighting for freedom and speech,
and it's like, hmmm, the face of this is who's
really under attack because had he lost his show, he
got fifty.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
Million in that word, yeah, lose my book. I don't
have that thing.
Speaker 5 (22:02):
Yes, So how do you feel with the current fight
against censorship and like what we should be doing?
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Thank you for this question, because as president of NABJLA,
this is a never ending conversation, especially because.
Speaker 5 (22:17):
That is that is the National Association of Black Journalists
of Los Angeles, Los Angeles. Is the president of yeah,
Los Angeles j LA chapter.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Yeah, And this is something that is particularly particularly personal,
right because I'm currently a freelancer, and the majority of
my members of the members of the organization, we over
index as freelancers. You know, I'm squinting right, We're not
in newsrooms. I know that it's a systemic failure, which
I have to remind myself just as much as I
(22:48):
have to remind students that I meet with who are frustrated. Understandably,
you get that piece of paper and you're ready to
hit the ground running. You walk across that stage, flip
that tassel, and you're ready to hit the ground running,
and it simply is just not there for you. Even
if you did have a great relationship at your internship
that you just did like it is. It's wild how
(23:09):
positions are being consolidated. We're being stripped of equity, not
that we even really had real equity. I feel like
the sweet spot for equity for any marginalized group was
around like twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, era twenty seventeen. But
I will say I think that Jimmy Kimmel elicited such
a response because I mean, on top of him being
(23:29):
a white man, we had not seen an example like
that where one day you can deal in mind you
the Jimmy Kimmel cancelation, the temporary cancelation that was midweek. Yeah,
it's not something that it was like here today, gone tomorrow.
We're not airing the show that is frightening to a
lot of people, myself included. And so it's one of
those things where I do feel like journalists are under
(23:52):
attack of any group that's not white, cisgender, able, bodied,
and heterosexual. You're under attack. Your beat is under a tact.
I always say that can't nobody tell our stories like us?
And that's not necessarily to say that you need to
have a certain lived experience to tell a story.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
But I would prefer it.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
It makes me think of all the conversations that keep
happening around trans people and trans bodies, and no trans
people are in the room, no trans people are quoted
in the article, no trans people are on the MSNBC
panel or the CNN panel. You know, people sitting around
talking about this, that, and the other without the lived experience.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
And I don't think that would happen with any other group.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
I don't imagine people sitting around talking about the rights
or lack thereof of black people and there's no black
people on the panel. I know that it's happened, and
it probably continues to happen in certain sectors, but the
overwhelming majority will call something like that out because what
authority do you have to speak on this right? And
so I'd be lying to you if I said that
(24:50):
I was not scared they're gonna have to pry journalism
from my hands. I love this field. I have dedicated
my entire adult life to this field. I am very
frustrated at the thought of possibly having to pivot, which
I probably will.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
I'm being honest, I probably will have to pivot.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
There's already no money in the industry we're seeing what's
happening with CBS, and very wise, it seems like ABC.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
It seems like ABC.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Is the only one that that is still kind of
doing the right thing. Now they have their flaws, but
with everything happening with CBS, and then we just saw
the headlines about how NBC turned out the lights on
all of their auxiliary groups, NBC out NBC Black, NBC like, yeah,
it's gone. And then we already know what Fox News gives.
(25:39):
But ABC they still have Kimmel, they still have the
view for now. It's just it's very, very scary because
ten years ago I had a certain dream, it still
felt attainable, it's still felt in reach, and now it
does not. I feel like a lot of black people
and people of marginalized groups feel our position to feel
(26:02):
like a liability of sorts if we hire you, right.
I also feel that people who are racist are more
empowered to discriminate because who you gonna tell?
Speaker 2 (26:11):
And if you do tell somebody, what's gonna be done.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Yeah, it seems like there's a whole system, there's a
whole network of protection there. I'm not going to lose
anything for discriminating against you, and I wouldn't be surprised
if the Supreme Court made that legal if it's not
already legal. So I think about federal protections. The media
is in a dark place right now, and I think
that diverse voices and diverse storytelling is the only way
that we can have a sustainable media environment. We can't
(26:37):
just have this one track way of reporting things. And
even with what happened with teen Vogue, how disappointing, how disappointing.
Gosh that broke my heart with teen Vogue ending in
the way that it did, and because they had some
of the most biting and some of the most sharp
political commentary and now it's gone.
Speaker 5 (26:56):
Shout out to Yes, was the the person who gave
me the greenlight on some of my first.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Articles for Yeah, and Philip Accardi.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
And PHILIPCCARTI, so excuse me, yes, and Philipogardi as well.
Speaker 4 (27:08):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Yeah, It's one of those things for me where I'm scared.
I'd be lying to you if I if I said
that I was not scared. This year has been very
trying for not only myself but everybody that I know
that that's in journalism, whether you're writing or speaking. It's
been very trying and the future depending on the day.
For me personally, depending on the day, the future feels
(27:30):
grim or the future feels hopeful. Yeah, and it's not
as easy. My final point is it's not as easy
as creating your own no.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
Yeah, no.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
And I'm someone who has never desired to be an
influencer or an entrepreneur. I actually like the structure of
a guaranteed check. Like I said, I'm trying to divest
from hustle culture. It's just not as easy, like if
we're already disproportionately affected by certain systemic barriers. When I
think about us just having access to certain resources, there's
(28:01):
just certain undeniable barriers that black and brown and marginalized
people face with creating their own media companies. And I
think it's disingenuous to suggest that without exploring some people
do want a corporate check. I do like financial security,
yeah yeah, and that includes corporate media and getting a
(28:24):
nice paycheck on the first and the fifteenth or whatever,
you know.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
And so yeah, that's what it is for me personally.
Speaker 5 (28:30):
The reason I wanted to have this conversation today was
because I do think that where we are today, like
it's just so important that like us as black journalists
really start to come together to be like, Okay, it's
tough on all of us, but like, what are our resources?
Speaker 3 (28:43):
How do we move together?
Speaker 2 (28:45):
There needs to be an indictment on crabs in a
barrel mentality.
Speaker 3 (28:48):
Because we don't have to fight each other for this.
Speaker 4 (28:51):
We don't.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
And you know what, there needs to be a collective
reckoning around misogyny, transphobia, homophobia, like we need to move
as one band, one sound.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
That is the only.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Way that black journalists are going to survive the coming years.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
We literally need each other.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
We literally are going to have to be community based
without bigoted biases.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
And now back to my conversation with char Joe Sell.
Speaker 5 (29:45):
All right to close us out, Oh my god, this
is See this is the type of conversation that just
you just be talking and talking talking to you look
up and it's like, oh girl, we've we've been on
the phone for an hour.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
We've been on a phone for an hour.
Speaker 5 (29:56):
We always like to close out the show with any
like words that you may live by, any quotes you
live by that you think may help other people out there.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
So what's coming to mind is from one of my
good friends, doctor Kia, a host of Getting Grown podcast.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
She always says, I am safe and I have what
I need.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
I use that as a grounding technique, and what I
would tell everyone is, I know in addition to that,
I know that things can get very confusing and very rocky,
and especially if you're in this industry. And I always
remind myself one of my fundamental principles that I adopted
via my parents when I was like in second grade.
But I feel like it has carried me throughout my life.
(30:37):
It's what's for me is for me, right, and there's
no one that can come in between that. Like there's
been times where I feel like or I've been on
the way of negotiating a deal or whatever, and maybe
someone comes in and stomps on it or it gets
taken away from me. Even in my most painful moments,
I'm reminded that.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
That was not for me, and it's okay. There's better
coming as well.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
That's what I've always got to say as well, even
if it hasn't necessarily arrived yet.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
I have to believe in my core that better is coming.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
It's just what's for me is for me, and there's
no saboteur there's no business decision, there's no hiccup, no traffic,
no nothing. If that sands in the way, then it
ultimately was not for me. And that is okay, no
matter how painful that might feel in the moment. And
I'm speaking professionally and even personally right because men have
come and gone, friends have coming gone, you just honor
(31:29):
that season, honor them, You honor that season. That's not
to say that that people also can't circle the block,
or institutions can't circle the block, and then you deal
with that if and when that happens, but you honor
the season, and you release it and you move on
with your life and trust that there is always better
to come.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
That's what I'll say.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
Yes, I love that.
Speaker 5 (31:51):
I love that, shar Thank you for being on the show.
I love you and appreciate you. Chart was before things
was blowing up for me. Would be one of the
first people like George on an interview for this. This
was before I had a platform and Charlotte was lending
me her So I'm just grateful to even be able
to live mine back.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Thank you, my friend.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
I deeply appreciate you, and I have such a profound
respect to you. And your contributions not only to the field,
but your work in general. I'm in awe of you
and all that you've been able to accomplish.
Speaker 4 (32:17):
So Yes, Yeah.
Speaker 5 (32:36):
Fighting Words is a production of iHeart Podcasts in partnership
with Best's Case Studios. I'm Georgian Johnson. This episode was
produced by Charlotte Morley. Executive producers are myself and Tweaky
Puchi Guar Song with Adam Pinkers and Brick Cats for
Best Case Studios. The theme song was written and composed
by Covas Banbianna and myself.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
Original music by A. Kvas. This episode was.
Speaker 5 (33:02):
Edited and scored by Max Michael Miller. Our Heart team
is Ali Perry and Carl Ketel. Following Rake Fighting Words
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