September 30, 2025 • 31 mins
George is joined by Dana A. Williams, Dean of the Graduate School at Howard University and author of a new book "Toni at Random," about Nobel Prize-winning author Toni Morrison's overlooked career as the first Black woman editor at Penguin Random House. Dana tells George about Toni's vision for editing and publishing Black authors, and how African-American literature helps make sense of the American experience as a whole.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
We think we know what we want to read, and
the reality is we're being led by the nose. Editors
are making decisions about what books are going to be published,
what books are going to end up in the front
of windows, which ones are going to get New York
Times reviews, especially if we're thinking about it from the
perspective of which black books are getting published and what
they look like.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Dana A. Williams is a professor of African American literature
and the dean of the Graduate School at Howard University.
Today we are talking about her latest book, Tony at
Random The Iconic Writer's Legendary Editorship. You probably know Tony
Morrison as a writer, but you might not know that
she was also an editor at Penguin Random House for
over fifteen years.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
The surprise to me was how prolific she was as
an editor, without fail. She was tough. She could be
sassy and sharp if you were nasty and raised up
on her, and there were other times that she was incredibly nurturing.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Singing in the heavy handed with the world take a
sip of brandy, spoke the guy.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
You know what the plan is.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
One doesn't understand me. My name is Georgiam Johnson. I
am the New York Times bestselling author of the book
All Boys Aren't Blue, which is the number one most
challenged book in the United States. This is Fighting Words,
a show where we take you to the front lines
of the culture wars with the people who are using
their words to make change and who refuse to be silent.
(01:42):
Today's guest Dana A Williams. I am here today with
dana A Williams. Welcome to Fighting Words.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Yes, yes, I'm super excited to talk to you today.
I'd like for when people come on the show for
them to introduce themselves. I feel like our bios sometimes
precede us, So can you let the world know who
is Dana A. Williams.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
I am Professor of African American Literature and dean of
the Graduate School at Howard. I did my undergraduate work
at Grandma State University. I'm from Louisiana. I'm a girl
from the South. I love black institutions and black people
and great books. Third of Four Girls.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
To my parents listeners who aren't familiar, I think many
people know Tony Morrison as the writer, the thinker, the
north Star, and my opinion of us as black writers today.
But don't realize she had a whole career prior to
her writing her first novel at Penguin Random House, where
(02:43):
she was an editor. And so can you just let
us know what was Tony Morrison like and what drew
you to wanting to write about her?
Speaker 1 (02:53):
I think I'm like you in the sense that she
used one of my favorite writers. If there is a
book that I want to go back to because I
just need to be grounded, I need to be focused,
I need to deal with language, I need to think.
Pick any one of those I need to And there's
a Tony Morrison novel that I can pick up. So
that's what she meant to me as a writer. Then
(03:16):
learning so much more about her as an editor just
made all the difference in the world, just in terms
of my fascination with who she was as a full person.
I also know that she taught, I know that she
wrote these lyrics. So I can't wait until somebody does
this whole comprehensive biography. It won't be me. But there's
so much that we can know about Tony Morrison. I
was fortunate enough to have interacted with her over the years,
(03:40):
both formally through interviews and then informally because my mentor
was one of her closest friends. And by all accounts,
now this isn't to say at all that she was
not like most people where there were times when she
wanted to be doing something else other than talking to me,
and it was clear, but by and large, she was
(04:00):
generous with her time and her spirit, in part because
I was kind of surprised she was so invested in
this project, in wanting people to know about the editorship.
I mean, her eyes would light up and she's like,
you know, that was really hard work and nobody talks
about it. She was equally interested, obviously in people who
were writing about her novels. Yeah, one of those rare
(04:20):
writers who would attend panels where people were talking about
her work would read the articles because she really did
want to know whether or not people got what she
was trying to do, and whether or not she was
doing what she was trying to do in a way
that could be communicated to scholars and critics. And I
think that was also a function of her work as
(04:41):
really a teacher and a critic herself, that she understood
that that's how books move. By and large, somebody makes
the recommendations faculty and course adoptions. She was ever the
editor thinking about how to sell.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Books and what was the publishing landscape like at the
time when Tony Morrison was an editor.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
I think it had begun to change from a male
dominated industry to one where there were more women involved.
I don't know that it was intentional, but it corresponded
to some degree with the women's movement where more women
were working now. Of course, and Morrison says this, and
we all know this. Black women never had the luxury
of not working. So this kind of labor movement towards
(05:24):
making space for people to work outside of the home
was really one that was relegated to a white women
of a certain class too, because working class white women
also worked, especially after the war. But what was different
then as it was even transitioning to more women taking
more roles, and to be clear, these were not the execs.
(05:45):
The execs still were white men. More women working in editing,
in copy editing and in the office and other roles.
But at Random House at the time that she was there,
she was the only black editor there for many years
before she was there. Charles Harris was there. He had
come from Double Day, was at Random House for some
(06:06):
years and then moved on to Howard University Press to
found the press and to found a publishing institute. So
I would say easily seventy percent of the black people
who are in publishing now came through that publishing institute
in some way. If they didn't, their mentors did. And
then after Charles Harris left and Morrison rises to become
(06:27):
senior editor. By the time she makes her transition, Erro
McDonald is actually an editor that she references in some
of her correspondence to say, you're really good hands. There's
this really young, bright editor named Errol who I'm handing
you off to. So there was a period when she
was indeed the only black editor in the place. The
landscape overall, too, was a little bit different at Random
(06:49):
House than it was at other places. Random House would
allow its editors to take a book or manuscript to
its editor in chief and makes the case for the book,
and the editor in chief could say, yep, pursue or nope,
I don't see how, or I don't see why. I
don't see justification. I don't see cause bring sales in
because I'm not yet convinced, whereas at other houses you
(07:12):
had to sit around with other editors to make the
decision about what got picked up. And imagine what it's
like if you're Marie Brown at Doubleday and you're the
only black woman in the room of twelve fifteen editors
and you're trying to convince someone to acquire a book,
and everybody just says, no, we don't see it. So
there was a certain luxury, certainly that Morrison had at
random house that also made her own personality and her
(07:37):
gravitas a big part of how she was able to
achieve so much and how she was able to publish
writers that did not have established careers already. She really
was finding and she didn't like to use discover because
she got in a little bit of trouble about that
with Henry Dumas, where some other folks were saying, like, oh,
so now you discovered and obviously she's like, I didn't
(07:58):
discover anything, but the ushers in to print writers who
had not been published before.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
What kind of editor was Tony Morrison? I mean, she
was so profound, you know, with all of her own
writings and everything. But I would imagine she brought that
ancestral awareness. It was like she had been here before.
I always like, anytime I think of her, I'm like,
she was here before. I don't know how, but she
didn't eem to know everything from before and was able
to put it with us today. What was she like
(08:32):
as an editor?
Speaker 1 (08:33):
It was very based on writer, but without fail She
was tough. Okay, she could be gentle but tough depending
on the disposition of the person. She could be sassy
and sharp if you were nasty and raised up on her.
I remember, I'm thinking especially with someone who showed up
(08:54):
in her office unannounced and declared that she didn't know
what she was doing, and she said, listen, I can't
be strong armed. It makes me disagreeable. I mean, just
like just very straightforward. But then there were other times
when she was incredibly nurturing. We all know Gail Jones
and her persona and her unwillingness to do press, and
we know that authors sell books, the books on sell themselves.
(09:16):
So she made all the space in the world that
Gail Jones needed to promote Gail Jones's work and to say, listen,
don't worry about that, don't worry about this. There are
these interesting moments when she's working more for the author,
I think than she is for a random house. So
at one point, when she tries to get Gail Jones's
(09:36):
contract for books two and three and her editor in
chief won't agree to the price point that she thinks
is reasonable, Morrison goes and tell Gail Jones like, at
this point, I think you might need to get an agent.
And she had told her before like, I don't think
you need to get an agent. The agent would take
a percentage of your money. I've already essentially acquired the book,
so the work that the agent would have done to
(09:58):
get someone to buy book, and we'll talk about it whenever.
And then she's like, girl, you better get an agent
because they're not giving you what I think that you deserve.
And if you had an agent, they would make the
case for you in a different way. And it was
complicated again because they were aware of the firm was aware,
and Gail Jones isn't going to promote these books. Carigodora
had done really well as Gail Jones's first novel, critically
(10:21):
just okay in terms of its sales, but it had
made a splash. So when it came time for Eva's
Men and White Rat when they were hedging their bets,
Morrison was clear, I better get on the other side
of this as well. I'll do both of these. And
I think also she was clear about author editor relationships,
(10:41):
so there were times when she had these conflicts with
her writers and it was simple for her. She's like,
all right, now that we've gotten that over with and
our author editor relationship has been sufficiently baptized, let's get
on with the business of publishing this book. Yeah. So
they didn't take it personally. Unfortunately there wasn't social media,
because there were some correspondences between her and June Jordan
(11:03):
that if they as had hit the street it might
have been ugly. But even then, you know, even then
Morrison was nice. She was like, you know, I really
admired the work that you're trying to do, and I'm
sorry that this isn't going to work.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
I always find that interesting too, because it's like we
didn't have social media back then. You either was cussing
each other out on the phone or like you said,
via some other way, writing writer letter, like some other
former communication that could take days at a time to
correspond between if you didn't have access to a telephone,
So like, that's super interesting. And now back to my
(11:40):
conversation with Dana A. Williams. What surprised you most when
writing the book that this book was going to be.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
What it ended up being. Remember, I'm coming from the
academic side, where we mapped plot everything out, We have
our outlines, we know, so books don't have lives of
their own. If you're an academic. In the same way,
you write what you said you were going to write.
You have that argument before you even get started with
this book. I started, and this book became something completely
different from what it was initially supposed to be. It
(12:16):
started out really to be about the fiction that Morrison edited,
because that was my introduction to her editorship. I was
in a class with Eleanor Traylor and we were reading
the books that Morrison had edited, the novels that she
had edited at Random House, and some of the fiction
Henry Dumas, Gail Jones, Leon Forrescet, Neddie Jones, and Tony K. Bombara,
(12:37):
and I thought, this is the book that I want
to write. I want to write the book about contemporary
African American fiction. Because you read the Norton Anthology, and
all it calls that period is literature after nineteen seventy,
and everything else has like something that tells you what
the thing is. But I'm like, this has to be
something more than literature after nineteen seventy. I knew Jesse
Fawcett and the Harlem Renaissance, so I thought, like, this
(12:59):
is a jee Fawcett moment. Morrison does for contemporary fiction
what Jesse Fawcett did for the Harlem Renaissance. And I
had the conversation with her about it. I said, this
is what I want to do, and I want to
contextualize your fiction with that fiction, to understand what that
fiction between like say seventy four and eighty four, Like
what's happening in this period where we're getting all of
(13:20):
these like really incredible, beautiful books that are really post
Black Arts movie. That was really how I was thinking
about it. We had our first interview in her office
at Princeton and she talked about everything but the fiction,
and of course I'm thinking, like she knows what my
questions are or a sentiment advance. I'm asking these questions
and this lady will not answer these questions about the
(13:40):
fiction that saved her life. I must have had this
kind of look on my face, and she said, Oh,
don't worry about it, We're going to talk about the fiction. Eventually,
never said, this book is not just about the fiction,
and this book so the book isn't about the fiction itself.
This book is really about the editorship. And she was
pulling books down off the shelf. Have you seen this?
You read this? Did you see this? So I did this,
(14:01):
and I was like, yep, I know about those, but
I want to talk about the fiction. So it shifted
really from a kind of literary analysis of African American
fiction post nineteen seventy, post Black Arts movement, to really
being a literary history of Tony Morrison's editorship. So the
surprise to me was how prolific she was as an editor,
(14:22):
and then how important it is to think about an
editor when you think about the production of books, because
we think we know what we want to read, and
the reality is we're being led by the nose, like
editors are making decisions about what books are going to
be published, what books are going to end up in
the front of windows, which ones are going to get ads,
(14:44):
which ones are going to get New York Times reviews,
which ones are going to be wherever our kind of
contemporary platforms are today, and I really wanted to try
to make more transparent and to uncover the editors are
making decisions for us as readers that we need a
little bit more awareness of, especially if we're thinking about
(15:05):
it from the perspective of which black books are getting
published and what they look like, what stories they're telling,
and what kind of freedom and autonomy authors have. I
thought it was important to really think about the craft
of editing a really good book, which is the work
that she was most invested in. I kept asking her repeatedly,
like there has to be something, There has to be
this signature. I need a hook, Like what's the hook?
(15:28):
Like what's the Morrison editorship? And she kept saying it
change is its varied everywhere, Like with every writer with
this person, I did this, with this person, I did this,
and sometimes even with the same writer, I would have
to do something different. Tony Cabombar's short story editing is
very different from her editing at you know, when I'm
working on The Salt Eaters, And we finally kind of
sort of agreed to this notion that every book that
(15:51):
she chose, because there were some that she was assigned
that she didn't have a choice in, but everyone that
she chose was a book that she felt like nobody
else could have written that book except for that author,
and no one else would have edited the book in
the same way. So that became a part of the
this is what I'm looking for, This is this kind
(16:11):
of signature moment. So that meant that she took chances
that other editors would not have because the other editors thinking, like,
I got to watch my profit and law sheet and
I know what sells, like the story that has ABC
and D one, two and three is the book that
is going to get me the amount of money that
I need to be able to do some other things.
(16:33):
And she didn't have that problem at all, in part
because she also didn't have access to agents. She was new.
She had come from a small textbook editing firm in
upstate New York, so she didn't have the contacts that
everybody else had. She couldn't go to a literary agency
and say give me your manuscript, So she did the
(16:54):
old school writing letters to people who were teaching in
MFA programs if you see something interest and send it
to me. And in the case of Leon Forrest, he
had gone to Holt Ryan Hart and the person said,
I think that's interesting, but I have no idea what's
going on in that book, but I know somebody who
might and gave him Tony Morrison's information. Tony Morrison picks
(17:17):
up the phone Hello at random house and he says, Hi,
this is Leon Forrest. I'm a writer and I work
for Mohammed Speaks, and I have this novel that you know.
This person suggested, like your editor at Holte suggested that
you'd be interested in She says, send it to me.
So it was that kind of give and take in
terms of what she was able to find and to do,
(17:40):
and even in the later part of her career, once
she began to write a lot more and had more
of a reputation as a writer, it was I'm choosing
the books that I want to do that do a
particular kind of work.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
We have talked to Tony Morrison, but the switch to
talking about you. You're a professor of African American literature.
What do you see in terms of like the necessity
of what types of stories we should be telling we have.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
To pick up that historical awareness. Our characters have to
have historical awareness, because I'm thinking now of the thing
that Inguvi Wationgo, who just made his transition, says, it's
fiction that helps us to make sense of the howling winds. Now.
Mind you, he had been jailed for his drama. Nobody
(18:35):
put him in jail for his novels or for his
short stories. But he says, it's only the fiction that
allows us to make sense of things that don't otherwise
make sense. Because you can imagine an invent a world.
You put the people in the right place so that
when you read it, the metaphor makes sense. So I
think we need more African American literature and more attention
(18:57):
to that literature that is doing that work that has
this kind of historical awareness. But I think it has
to have a universality that moves and transcends time. And
the universality isn't a dumbing down the way that you
know critics acts Tony Morrison, when are you going to
write a novel about white people? It is there is
(19:19):
more universality in the particular experience of people than there
is in a pretense universality like I'm writing a book
where the person has no color, and they have no
home and they have no beings. So that's an identity
liss person that no one can relate to. But if
you can get into the interiority of a character who
is black and is authentic because they are aware of
(19:42):
that without even announcing the blackness, which is, you know,
the thing that she kind of plays with a reculitative
and in Paradise, then you get to tell the story
that connects with people and they learn something from it.
So people ask me often about the favorite book, and
I think Paradise is Songs how That's probably my favorite,
but Paradise is the one that does the work. What
(20:04):
Paradise is doing with American exceptionalism in this moment in
twenty twenty five, I'm like it should be required reading
everywhere because the critique of the founding fathers is there,
the critique of how we push other people out. It
becomes this kind of fictionalized version of what she tried
to do and playing in the dark and the origin
of others, which is why again, fiction can do that
(20:26):
work in a way that nothing else can. And I'm
also mindful that we also have to read books that
are and we need to see books that are accessible
and enjoyable. And I think you can have all of that.
All of those things can be true at the same time.
And I imagine a lot of it is there. I
see it in, you know, some of the writers that
(20:48):
are doing really important work. I think I am most
interested though, in those stories that are not just cautionary
tales but that also give us a way out. So
we got to figure out we have to have the
tools that we need to beat back early signs of
fascism fifty years before it raises its head and have
(21:11):
this kind of awareness. I don't know that she has
anything out lately, but Olimpia Vernon has this really beautiful
small novel called A Killing in This Town that essentially
captures the coming of age narrative in a way that
makes clear that lynching was a coming of age ritual
(21:33):
that had the potential to be something other than what
it was, so that we can begin to think about
what does it mean for somebody to intervene in that killing,
what does it mean for people to think about all
of the implications of the metaphor. And it's a twenty
twenty five book even though I probably read it in
two thousand or something, so that kind of staying power
(21:55):
I think is really important for the books that we
that I would like to read. That doesn't mean like
I also in this No Shade whatsoever, like I think Stacey.
It was just really really smart, so I'm not like
clowning Coded Justice. But I also read Coded Justice, right, yeah,
I like read the Alex Cross series like it depends
on I was again No Shade's Terrmy Millan, but I
(22:16):
was like, I need something I can get through this weekend. Okay,
Terry Miller got a new book out, So I think
that there's room for everybody. And I never ever ever
pass up an opportunity to get a really great book
of poetry or some young adult lit because some of
the young adults stuff is like just really poignant, because
I think people are thinking like young adults. We give
(22:39):
young adults the space to think about identity in sophisticated, complicated,
three dimensional ways, and somehow adults are not supposed to
be three dimensional, which is why I think that young
adult works so incredibly well. I taught middle school twice
and not honest, I mean it was painful both times.
Once in a private school, once in a public school.
(23:00):
But those are the best educational experiences that I have
had as a teacher because what those kids are going through,
thinking about, like probing, it helps you to see with
a clarity that I don't get to see with my
twenty one year olds, you know, because by the hand,
they think they know something.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
And what do you do when you like recognize that. Okay,
I got to push a little bit harder on them
to get them to really understand what's going on, especially
through the lens of African American literature, which I think
is my FINI is probably the most transformative readings that
you can read about the human condition and experience, especially
(23:41):
in America.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
I agree wholeheartedly with that. I admit to being biased
to those students who I see like, Okay, this person's
I see with this Okay, I see this person. I
will work hard and I'll tell the student like, let
me be clear, my comments on your paper are going
to be far more detailed than my comments on somebody
(24:03):
else's paper or my conversations with you, like, because you
can go these places with me. So I work differently
with those folks because I don't want you to leave
the place because it's the only time that you're gonna
have four years uninterrupted to think. Yes, every place after
that is going to require you to think and to
(24:23):
be and to do and to produce, and but here
you just get to like your job is to be
members of a thinking class. And I use class with
a lower KC or like in air quotes or whatever.
So what I try to do with those students who
aren't yet there, but who are either interested, curious, or
(24:45):
looking like how did George show up like this in
the world, Because I feel like people who are the
way that you describe yourself for the same way that
you would describe more so like, oh, you just been
here before. That's all Like, there's no explanation to its
just been here before. Some of it is sociation, some
of it is black Church. Some of it is like
being accultivated to the way that people train you, where
(25:07):
you grew up and how you grow up. There's this
kind of confidence. But like as I said, I'm three
of four and all four of us got very different personalities.
So you just show up in the space, and sometimes
you're showing up in the reincarnation of somebody else too,
So that's the been here before a part right, yes,
And I don't try to explain to kids who don't
(25:30):
have that experience. What I try to do instead is
to feed like their intellectual curiosity. Tell me what it
is you want to know about. Tell me what it
is what you want to think about. And this is
why it becomes so hard for students in college, because
you're telling them you get to pick. They're like, no,
just tell me what to write about and I'll give
you five paragraphs. You know, this is now the opportunity
for you to tell me who you are and what
(25:50):
you want to do, what you're thinking, how you go,
where you're going, what your imagination like. What does your
freedom dream look like? Because it doesn't have to look
like mine. It could be individual, realistic. Mind might be collective.
It could be capitalism for you. For me, it might
be no more communal or socialists. It could be. But
I want you to have the tools that if at
(26:11):
any point you decide that you're going to make the
turn towards what I think looks like freedom, I want
you to have the tools. I don't want you to
walk away from the university saying dang I had an
opportunity to get some skills, to fill in the blank.
Tell me what it is you want to do, and
let me see if I can't help you get the skills,
because the literature will enable that both in content but
(26:32):
then also in terms of analysis. I enjoy it so much.
I used to do a refreshment seminary in the College
of Arts and Sciences, which was at different points they
moved from seven hundred to fifteen hundred students, and you know,
did it like as an extra class. No, pay didn't care.
People are like, why would you do that. You're chair
of the department. You don't have to teach. I said,
I got fifteen hundred kids, fifteen of them gonna be something,
(26:55):
And by that I meant like something that destabilizes special
that under that undermines that, as opposed to me taking
a chance on twenty mm hm. You give me fifteen
hundred little thinking kids every day, any day. I'll give
me fifteen.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Weeks to see what we can do, see what we
can do.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
I ain't that person who's gonna say, like, I did
my part, Now it's your turn. Nope, as long as
you're breathing, we all got turns Like you deserve all
of the tools that you can do so that you
can join this thing. I'm not giving them to you, like, okay, no,
my work is done. No, they deserve it, And nothing
diserves my spirit, probably more than when I see a
(27:30):
kid who isn't getting what his soul cries for. You know, yeah,
somebody should should be able to provide that for you,
whether it is intellectually, whether it's spiritually, whether it's mentally,
whether it's emotional, whether it's romantically. But gosh, that want,
that desire, that unmet want, that unmet desire, I'm deeply
(27:51):
empathetic for that.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
And now back to my conversation with Dana A. Williams.
I always ask two final things. I used to have
a column called George is Tired. Every week I would
write about what I was tired about this week. I
am definitely tired of the term differences of opinion being
(28:23):
used by so many. My oppression is not a difference
of opinion. And James Baugh went eloquently said like, if yeah,
we could disagree about things, but if your disagreement as
a result of me losing rights and my oppression then
and alive now, then we're not doing that right, like
this is an outright war against black folks, queer folks
and our oppressions and our struggles and y'all wanting to
(28:44):
whitewash this country, yep.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
And our articulation of ourselves, like we'd rather just pretend
like you don't know yourself.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
No, I'm clear, I'm very clear. Is there anything that
you are tired of?
Speaker 1 (28:55):
All around foolishness and the pretense foolishness is not foolishness,
Like we know what this is, Like why are we
pretending like this is something else? So the pretense of
sanity in moments of foolishness, I'm sick of it. I'm
tired of it.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Yeah, what are some words of wisdom that you want
to leave people with?
Speaker 1 (29:15):
There's a phrase that I can't stop thinking because it's
so perfect. Farah Griffin takes it as the title of
her book, and she says it's what her father wrote
to her if I'm not mistaken when he wasn't sure
if he was coming home because he might have been imprisoned.
Read until you understand. Wow, that for me is like
(29:36):
the word like when you know how difficult it is,
like try to have the perfect thing to say when
you're signing somebody's book. The impulse that I have when
I'm unsure about like, okay, tell me a little bit
about yourself, okay, because you want to personalize it. But
the impulse immediately as I'm thinking about this book and
every book that's been written, read until you understand. Yeah,
(29:58):
and that's read the world. Read this book, Read what's
happening around you, read your body, read yourself. Yeah, read
until you understand. I love that shout out to Paris Dad.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Yes, I would have thank you for coming on Fighting Words.
We are so appreciative of you, the work that you
are doing and as you said, continuing to produce the
people that need to go back out in this world
and fight the good fight for our liberation. So thank you.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
I appreciate the invitation you keep doing what you're doing.
I'm with you, Fight Words if they fight words for you,
counting in that admire, completely admire your work, and just
appreciate that you have stood tall in the midst of
like all kinds of swipes coming your way. We got you.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Thank you, Thank you. Fighting Words is production of iHeart
Podcasts in partnership with that Caseos. I'm Georgian Johnson. This
(31:02):
episode was produced by Charlotte Morley. Executive producers are Myself
and Twiggy pu Gigar Songs with Adam Pinks and Brick
Cat for Best Case Studios. The theme song was written
and composed by cole Vos, Bambianna and Myself. Original music
by Colevas. This episode was edited and scored by Michelle mclaman.
(31:24):
Our iHeart Team is Ali Perry and Carl Ketel. Following
rape Fighting Words Wherever You get your Podcast
We think we know what we want to read, and
the reality is we're being led by the nose. Editors
are making decisions about what books are going to be published,
what books are going to end up in the front
of windows, which ones are going to get New York
Times reviews, especially if we're thinking about it from the
perspective of which black books are getting published and what
they look like.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Dana A. Williams is a professor of African American literature
and the dean of the Graduate School at Howard University.
Today we are talking about her latest book, Tony at
Random The Iconic Writer's Legendary Editorship. You probably know Tony
Morrison as a writer, but you might not know that
she was also an editor at Penguin Random House for
over fifteen years.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
The surprise to me was how prolific she was as
an editor, without fail. She was tough. She could be
sassy and sharp if you were nasty and raised up
on her, and there were other times that she was incredibly nurturing.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Singing in the heavy handed with the world take a
sip of brandy, spoke the guy.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
You know what the plan is.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
One doesn't understand me. My name is Georgiam Johnson. I
am the New York Times bestselling author of the book
All Boys Aren't Blue, which is the number one most
challenged book in the United States. This is Fighting Words,
a show where we take you to the front lines
of the culture wars with the people who are using
their words to make change and who refuse to be silent.
(01:42):
Today's guest Dana A Williams. I am here today with
dana A Williams. Welcome to Fighting Words.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Yes, yes, I'm super excited to talk to you today.
I'd like for when people come on the show for
them to introduce themselves. I feel like our bios sometimes
precede us, So can you let the world know who
is Dana A. Williams.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
I am Professor of African American Literature and dean of
the Graduate School at Howard. I did my undergraduate work
at Grandma State University. I'm from Louisiana. I'm a girl
from the South. I love black institutions and black people
and great books. Third of Four Girls.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
To my parents listeners who aren't familiar, I think many
people know Tony Morrison as the writer, the thinker, the
north Star, and my opinion of us as black writers today.
But don't realize she had a whole career prior to
her writing her first novel at Penguin Random House, where
(02:43):
she was an editor. And so can you just let
us know what was Tony Morrison like and what drew
you to wanting to write about her?
Speaker 1 (02:53):
I think I'm like you in the sense that she
used one of my favorite writers. If there is a
book that I want to go back to because I
just need to be grounded, I need to be focused,
I need to deal with language, I need to think.
Pick any one of those I need to And there's
a Tony Morrison novel that I can pick up. So
that's what she meant to me as a writer. Then
(03:16):
learning so much more about her as an editor just
made all the difference in the world, just in terms
of my fascination with who she was as a full person.
I also know that she taught, I know that she
wrote these lyrics. So I can't wait until somebody does
this whole comprehensive biography. It won't be me. But there's
so much that we can know about Tony Morrison. I
was fortunate enough to have interacted with her over the years,
(03:40):
both formally through interviews and then informally because my mentor
was one of her closest friends. And by all accounts,
now this isn't to say at all that she was
not like most people where there were times when she
wanted to be doing something else other than talking to me,
and it was clear, but by and large, she was
(04:00):
generous with her time and her spirit, in part because
I was kind of surprised she was so invested in
this project, in wanting people to know about the editorship.
I mean, her eyes would light up and she's like,
you know, that was really hard work and nobody talks
about it. She was equally interested, obviously in people who
were writing about her novels. Yeah, one of those rare
(04:20):
writers who would attend panels where people were talking about
her work would read the articles because she really did
want to know whether or not people got what she
was trying to do, and whether or not she was
doing what she was trying to do in a way
that could be communicated to scholars and critics. And I
think that was also a function of her work as
(04:41):
really a teacher and a critic herself, that she understood
that that's how books move. By and large, somebody makes
the recommendations faculty and course adoptions. She was ever the
editor thinking about how to sell.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Books and what was the publishing landscape like at the
time when Tony Morrison was an editor.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
I think it had begun to change from a male
dominated industry to one where there were more women involved.
I don't know that it was intentional, but it corresponded
to some degree with the women's movement where more women
were working now. Of course, and Morrison says this, and
we all know this. Black women never had the luxury
of not working. So this kind of labor movement towards
(05:24):
making space for people to work outside of the home
was really one that was relegated to a white women
of a certain class too, because working class white women
also worked, especially after the war. But what was different
then as it was even transitioning to more women taking
more roles, and to be clear, these were not the execs.
(05:45):
The execs still were white men. More women working in editing,
in copy editing and in the office and other roles.
But at Random House at the time that she was there,
she was the only black editor there for many years
before she was there. Charles Harris was there. He had
come from Double Day, was at Random House for some
(06:06):
years and then moved on to Howard University Press to
found the press and to found a publishing institute. So
I would say easily seventy percent of the black people
who are in publishing now came through that publishing institute
in some way. If they didn't, their mentors did. And
then after Charles Harris left and Morrison rises to become
(06:27):
senior editor. By the time she makes her transition, Erro
McDonald is actually an editor that she references in some
of her correspondence to say, you're really good hands. There's
this really young, bright editor named Errol who I'm handing
you off to. So there was a period when she
was indeed the only black editor in the place. The
landscape overall, too, was a little bit different at Random
(06:49):
House than it was at other places. Random House would
allow its editors to take a book or manuscript to
its editor in chief and makes the case for the book,
and the editor in chief could say, yep, pursue or nope,
I don't see how, or I don't see why. I
don't see justification. I don't see cause bring sales in
because I'm not yet convinced, whereas at other houses you
(07:12):
had to sit around with other editors to make the
decision about what got picked up. And imagine what it's
like if you're Marie Brown at Doubleday and you're the
only black woman in the room of twelve fifteen editors
and you're trying to convince someone to acquire a book,
and everybody just says, no, we don't see it. So
there was a certain luxury, certainly that Morrison had at
random house that also made her own personality and her
(07:37):
gravitas a big part of how she was able to
achieve so much and how she was able to publish
writers that did not have established careers already. She really
was finding and she didn't like to use discover because
she got in a little bit of trouble about that
with Henry Dumas, where some other folks were saying, like, oh,
so now you discovered and obviously she's like, I didn't
(07:58):
discover anything, but the ushers in to print writers who
had not been published before.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
What kind of editor was Tony Morrison? I mean, she
was so profound, you know, with all of her own
writings and everything. But I would imagine she brought that
ancestral awareness. It was like she had been here before.
I always like, anytime I think of her, I'm like,
she was here before. I don't know how, but she
didn't eem to know everything from before and was able
to put it with us today. What was she like
(08:32):
as an editor?
Speaker 1 (08:33):
It was very based on writer, but without fail She
was tough. Okay, she could be gentle but tough depending
on the disposition of the person. She could be sassy
and sharp if you were nasty and raised up on her.
I remember, I'm thinking especially with someone who showed up
(08:54):
in her office unannounced and declared that she didn't know
what she was doing, and she said, listen, I can't
be strong armed. It makes me disagreeable. I mean, just
like just very straightforward. But then there were other times
when she was incredibly nurturing. We all know Gail Jones
and her persona and her unwillingness to do press, and
we know that authors sell books, the books on sell themselves.
(09:16):
So she made all the space in the world that
Gail Jones needed to promote Gail Jones's work and to say, listen,
don't worry about that, don't worry about this. There are
these interesting moments when she's working more for the author,
I think than she is for a random house. So
at one point, when she tries to get Gail Jones's
(09:36):
contract for books two and three and her editor in
chief won't agree to the price point that she thinks
is reasonable, Morrison goes and tell Gail Jones like, at
this point, I think you might need to get an agent.
And she had told her before like, I don't think
you need to get an agent. The agent would take
a percentage of your money. I've already essentially acquired the book,
so the work that the agent would have done to
(09:58):
get someone to buy book, and we'll talk about it whenever.
And then she's like, girl, you better get an agent
because they're not giving you what I think that you deserve.
And if you had an agent, they would make the
case for you in a different way. And it was
complicated again because they were aware of the firm was aware,
and Gail Jones isn't going to promote these books. Carigodora
had done really well as Gail Jones's first novel, critically
(10:21):
just okay in terms of its sales, but it had
made a splash. So when it came time for Eva's
Men and White Rat when they were hedging their bets,
Morrison was clear, I better get on the other side
of this as well. I'll do both of these. And
I think also she was clear about author editor relationships,
(10:41):
so there were times when she had these conflicts with
her writers and it was simple for her. She's like,
all right, now that we've gotten that over with and
our author editor relationship has been sufficiently baptized, let's get
on with the business of publishing this book. Yeah. So
they didn't take it personally. Unfortunately there wasn't social media,
because there were some correspondences between her and June Jordan
(11:03):
that if they as had hit the street it might
have been ugly. But even then, you know, even then
Morrison was nice. She was like, you know, I really
admired the work that you're trying to do, and I'm
sorry that this isn't going to work.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
I always find that interesting too, because it's like we
didn't have social media back then. You either was cussing
each other out on the phone or like you said,
via some other way, writing writer letter, like some other
former communication that could take days at a time to
correspond between if you didn't have access to a telephone,
So like, that's super interesting. And now back to my
(11:40):
conversation with Dana A. Williams. What surprised you most when
writing the book that this book was going to be.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
What it ended up being. Remember, I'm coming from the
academic side, where we mapped plot everything out, We have
our outlines, we know, so books don't have lives of
their own. If you're an academic. In the same way,
you write what you said you were going to write.
You have that argument before you even get started with
this book. I started, and this book became something completely
different from what it was initially supposed to be. It
(12:16):
started out really to be about the fiction that Morrison edited,
because that was my introduction to her editorship. I was
in a class with Eleanor Traylor and we were reading
the books that Morrison had edited, the novels that she
had edited at Random House, and some of the fiction
Henry Dumas, Gail Jones, Leon Forrescet, Neddie Jones, and Tony K. Bombara,
(12:37):
and I thought, this is the book that I want
to write. I want to write the book about contemporary
African American fiction. Because you read the Norton Anthology, and
all it calls that period is literature after nineteen seventy,
and everything else has like something that tells you what
the thing is. But I'm like, this has to be
something more than literature after nineteen seventy. I knew Jesse
Fawcett and the Harlem Renaissance, so I thought, like, this
(12:59):
is a jee Fawcett moment. Morrison does for contemporary fiction
what Jesse Fawcett did for the Harlem Renaissance. And I
had the conversation with her about it. I said, this
is what I want to do, and I want to
contextualize your fiction with that fiction, to understand what that
fiction between like say seventy four and eighty four, Like
what's happening in this period where we're getting all of
(13:20):
these like really incredible, beautiful books that are really post
Black Arts movie. That was really how I was thinking
about it. We had our first interview in her office
at Princeton and she talked about everything but the fiction,
and of course I'm thinking, like she knows what my
questions are or a sentiment advance. I'm asking these questions
and this lady will not answer these questions about the
(13:40):
fiction that saved her life. I must have had this
kind of look on my face, and she said, Oh,
don't worry about it, We're going to talk about the fiction. Eventually,
never said, this book is not just about the fiction,
and this book so the book isn't about the fiction itself.
This book is really about the editorship. And she was
pulling books down off the shelf. Have you seen this?
You read this? Did you see this? So I did this,
(14:01):
and I was like, yep, I know about those, but
I want to talk about the fiction. So it shifted
really from a kind of literary analysis of African American
fiction post nineteen seventy, post Black Arts movement, to really
being a literary history of Tony Morrison's editorship. So the
surprise to me was how prolific she was as an editor,
(14:22):
and then how important it is to think about an
editor when you think about the production of books, because
we think we know what we want to read, and
the reality is we're being led by the nose, like
editors are making decisions about what books are going to
be published, what books are going to end up in
the front of windows, which ones are going to get ads,
(14:44):
which ones are going to get New York Times reviews,
which ones are going to be wherever our kind of
contemporary platforms are today, and I really wanted to try
to make more transparent and to uncover the editors are
making decisions for us as readers that we need a
little bit more awareness of, especially if we're thinking about
(15:05):
it from the perspective of which black books are getting
published and what they look like, what stories they're telling,
and what kind of freedom and autonomy authors have. I
thought it was important to really think about the craft
of editing a really good book, which is the work
that she was most invested in. I kept asking her repeatedly,
like there has to be something, There has to be
this signature. I need a hook, Like what's the hook?
(15:28):
Like what's the Morrison editorship? And she kept saying it
change is its varied everywhere, Like with every writer with
this person, I did this, with this person, I did this,
and sometimes even with the same writer, I would have
to do something different. Tony Cabombar's short story editing is
very different from her editing at you know, when I'm
working on The Salt Eaters, And we finally kind of
sort of agreed to this notion that every book that
(15:51):
she chose, because there were some that she was assigned
that she didn't have a choice in, but everyone that
she chose was a book that she felt like nobody
else could have written that book except for that author,
and no one else would have edited the book in
the same way. So that became a part of the
this is what I'm looking for, This is this kind
(16:11):
of signature moment. So that meant that she took chances
that other editors would not have because the other editors thinking, like,
I got to watch my profit and law sheet and
I know what sells, like the story that has ABC
and D one, two and three is the book that
is going to get me the amount of money that
I need to be able to do some other things.
(16:33):
And she didn't have that problem at all, in part
because she also didn't have access to agents. She was new.
She had come from a small textbook editing firm in
upstate New York, so she didn't have the contacts that
everybody else had. She couldn't go to a literary agency
and say give me your manuscript, So she did the
(16:54):
old school writing letters to people who were teaching in
MFA programs if you see something interest and send it
to me. And in the case of Leon Forrest, he
had gone to Holt Ryan Hart and the person said,
I think that's interesting, but I have no idea what's
going on in that book, but I know somebody who
might and gave him Tony Morrison's information. Tony Morrison picks
(17:17):
up the phone Hello at random house and he says, Hi,
this is Leon Forrest. I'm a writer and I work
for Mohammed Speaks, and I have this novel that you know.
This person suggested, like your editor at Holte suggested that
you'd be interested in She says, send it to me.
So it was that kind of give and take in
terms of what she was able to find and to do,
(17:40):
and even in the later part of her career, once
she began to write a lot more and had more
of a reputation as a writer, it was I'm choosing
the books that I want to do that do a
particular kind of work.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
We have talked to Tony Morrison, but the switch to
talking about you. You're a professor of African American literature.
What do you see in terms of like the necessity
of what types of stories we should be telling we have.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
To pick up that historical awareness. Our characters have to
have historical awareness, because I'm thinking now of the thing
that Inguvi Wationgo, who just made his transition, says, it's
fiction that helps us to make sense of the howling winds. Now.
Mind you, he had been jailed for his drama. Nobody
(18:35):
put him in jail for his novels or for his
short stories. But he says, it's only the fiction that
allows us to make sense of things that don't otherwise
make sense. Because you can imagine an invent a world.
You put the people in the right place so that
when you read it, the metaphor makes sense. So I
think we need more African American literature and more attention
(18:57):
to that literature that is doing that work that has
this kind of historical awareness. But I think it has
to have a universality that moves and transcends time. And
the universality isn't a dumbing down the way that you
know critics acts Tony Morrison, when are you going to
write a novel about white people? It is there is
(19:19):
more universality in the particular experience of people than there
is in a pretense universality like I'm writing a book
where the person has no color, and they have no
home and they have no beings. So that's an identity
liss person that no one can relate to. But if
you can get into the interiority of a character who
is black and is authentic because they are aware of
(19:42):
that without even announcing the blackness, which is, you know,
the thing that she kind of plays with a reculitative
and in Paradise, then you get to tell the story
that connects with people and they learn something from it.
So people ask me often about the favorite book, and
I think Paradise is Songs how That's probably my favorite,
but Paradise is the one that does the work. What
(20:04):
Paradise is doing with American exceptionalism in this moment in
twenty twenty five, I'm like it should be required reading
everywhere because the critique of the founding fathers is there,
the critique of how we push other people out. It
becomes this kind of fictionalized version of what she tried
to do and playing in the dark and the origin
of others, which is why again, fiction can do that
(20:26):
work in a way that nothing else can. And I'm
also mindful that we also have to read books that
are and we need to see books that are accessible
and enjoyable. And I think you can have all of that.
All of those things can be true at the same time.
And I imagine a lot of it is there. I
see it in, you know, some of the writers that
(20:48):
are doing really important work. I think I am most
interested though, in those stories that are not just cautionary
tales but that also give us a way out. So
we got to figure out we have to have the
tools that we need to beat back early signs of
fascism fifty years before it raises its head and have
(21:11):
this kind of awareness. I don't know that she has
anything out lately, but Olimpia Vernon has this really beautiful
small novel called A Killing in This Town that essentially
captures the coming of age narrative in a way that
makes clear that lynching was a coming of age ritual
(21:33):
that had the potential to be something other than what
it was, so that we can begin to think about
what does it mean for somebody to intervene in that killing,
what does it mean for people to think about all
of the implications of the metaphor. And it's a twenty
twenty five book even though I probably read it in
two thousand or something, so that kind of staying power
(21:55):
I think is really important for the books that we
that I would like to read. That doesn't mean like
I also in this No Shade whatsoever, like I think Stacey.
It was just really really smart, so I'm not like
clowning Coded Justice. But I also read Coded Justice, right, yeah,
I like read the Alex Cross series like it depends
on I was again No Shade's Terrmy Millan, but I
(22:16):
was like, I need something I can get through this weekend. Okay,
Terry Miller got a new book out, So I think
that there's room for everybody. And I never ever ever
pass up an opportunity to get a really great book
of poetry or some young adult lit because some of
the young adults stuff is like just really poignant, because
I think people are thinking like young adults. We give
(22:39):
young adults the space to think about identity in sophisticated, complicated,
three dimensional ways, and somehow adults are not supposed to
be three dimensional, which is why I think that young
adult works so incredibly well. I taught middle school twice
and not honest, I mean it was painful both times.
Once in a private school, once in a public school.
(23:00):
But those are the best educational experiences that I have
had as a teacher because what those kids are going through,
thinking about, like probing, it helps you to see with
a clarity that I don't get to see with my
twenty one year olds, you know, because by the hand,
they think they know something.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
And what do you do when you like recognize that. Okay,
I got to push a little bit harder on them
to get them to really understand what's going on, especially
through the lens of African American literature, which I think
is my FINI is probably the most transformative readings that
you can read about the human condition and experience, especially
(23:41):
in America.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
I agree wholeheartedly with that. I admit to being biased
to those students who I see like, Okay, this person's
I see with this Okay, I see this person. I
will work hard and I'll tell the student like, let
me be clear, my comments on your paper are going
to be far more detailed than my comments on somebody
(24:03):
else's paper or my conversations with you, like, because you
can go these places with me. So I work differently
with those folks because I don't want you to leave
the place because it's the only time that you're gonna
have four years uninterrupted to think. Yes, every place after
that is going to require you to think and to
(24:23):
be and to do and to produce, and but here
you just get to like your job is to be
members of a thinking class. And I use class with
a lower KC or like in air quotes or whatever.
So what I try to do with those students who
aren't yet there, but who are either interested, curious, or
(24:45):
looking like how did George show up like this in
the world, Because I feel like people who are the
way that you describe yourself for the same way that
you would describe more so like, oh, you just been
here before. That's all Like, there's no explanation to its
just been here before. Some of it is sociation, some
of it is black Church. Some of it is like
being accultivated to the way that people train you, where
(25:07):
you grew up and how you grow up. There's this
kind of confidence. But like as I said, I'm three
of four and all four of us got very different personalities.
So you just show up in the space, and sometimes
you're showing up in the reincarnation of somebody else too,
So that's the been here before a part right, yes,
And I don't try to explain to kids who don't
(25:30):
have that experience. What I try to do instead is
to feed like their intellectual curiosity. Tell me what it
is you want to know about. Tell me what it
is what you want to think about. And this is
why it becomes so hard for students in college, because
you're telling them you get to pick. They're like, no,
just tell me what to write about and I'll give
you five paragraphs. You know, this is now the opportunity
for you to tell me who you are and what
(25:50):
you want to do, what you're thinking, how you go,
where you're going, what your imagination like. What does your
freedom dream look like? Because it doesn't have to look
like mine. It could be individual, realistic. Mind might be collective.
It could be capitalism for you. For me, it might
be no more communal or socialists. It could be. But
I want you to have the tools that if at
(26:11):
any point you decide that you're going to make the
turn towards what I think looks like freedom, I want
you to have the tools. I don't want you to
walk away from the university saying dang I had an
opportunity to get some skills, to fill in the blank.
Tell me what it is you want to do, and
let me see if I can't help you get the skills,
because the literature will enable that both in content but
(26:32):
then also in terms of analysis. I enjoy it so much.
I used to do a refreshment seminary in the College
of Arts and Sciences, which was at different points they
moved from seven hundred to fifteen hundred students, and you know,
did it like as an extra class. No, pay didn't care.
People are like, why would you do that. You're chair
of the department. You don't have to teach. I said,
I got fifteen hundred kids, fifteen of them gonna be something,
(26:55):
And by that I meant like something that destabilizes special
that under that undermines that, as opposed to me taking
a chance on twenty mm hm. You give me fifteen
hundred little thinking kids every day, any day. I'll give
me fifteen.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Weeks to see what we can do, see what we
can do.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
I ain't that person who's gonna say, like, I did
my part, Now it's your turn. Nope, as long as
you're breathing, we all got turns Like you deserve all
of the tools that you can do so that you
can join this thing. I'm not giving them to you, like, okay, no,
my work is done. No, they deserve it, And nothing
diserves my spirit, probably more than when I see a
(27:30):
kid who isn't getting what his soul cries for. You know, yeah,
somebody should should be able to provide that for you,
whether it is intellectually, whether it's spiritually, whether it's mentally,
whether it's emotional, whether it's romantically. But gosh, that want,
that desire, that unmet want, that unmet desire, I'm deeply
(27:51):
empathetic for that.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
And now back to my conversation with Dana A. Williams.
I always ask two final things. I used to have
a column called George is Tired. Every week I would
write about what I was tired about this week. I
am definitely tired of the term differences of opinion being
(28:23):
used by so many. My oppression is not a difference
of opinion. And James Baugh went eloquently said like, if yeah,
we could disagree about things, but if your disagreement as
a result of me losing rights and my oppression then
and alive now, then we're not doing that right, like
this is an outright war against black folks, queer folks
and our oppressions and our struggles and y'all wanting to
(28:44):
whitewash this country, yep.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
And our articulation of ourselves, like we'd rather just pretend
like you don't know yourself.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
No, I'm clear, I'm very clear. Is there anything that
you are tired of?
Speaker 1 (28:55):
All around foolishness and the pretense foolishness is not foolishness,
Like we know what this is, Like why are we
pretending like this is something else? So the pretense of
sanity in moments of foolishness, I'm sick of it. I'm
tired of it.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Yeah, what are some words of wisdom that you want
to leave people with?
Speaker 1 (29:15):
There's a phrase that I can't stop thinking because it's
so perfect. Farah Griffin takes it as the title of
her book, and she says it's what her father wrote
to her if I'm not mistaken when he wasn't sure
if he was coming home because he might have been imprisoned.
Read until you understand. Wow, that for me is like
(29:36):
the word like when you know how difficult it is,
like try to have the perfect thing to say when
you're signing somebody's book. The impulse that I have when
I'm unsure about like, okay, tell me a little bit
about yourself, okay, because you want to personalize it. But
the impulse immediately as I'm thinking about this book and
every book that's been written, read until you understand. Yeah,
(29:58):
and that's read the world. Read this book, Read what's
happening around you, read your body, read yourself. Yeah, read
until you understand. I love that shout out to Paris Dad.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Yes, I would have thank you for coming on Fighting Words.
We are so appreciative of you, the work that you
are doing and as you said, continuing to produce the
people that need to go back out in this world
and fight the good fight for our liberation. So thank you.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
I appreciate the invitation you keep doing what you're doing.
I'm with you, Fight Words if they fight words for you,
counting in that admire, completely admire your work, and just
appreciate that you have stood tall in the midst of
like all kinds of swipes coming your way. We got you.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Thank you, Thank you. Fighting Words is production of iHeart
Podcasts in partnership with that Caseos. I'm Georgian Johnson. This
(31:02):
episode was produced by Charlotte Morley. Executive producers are Myself
and Twiggy pu Gigar Songs with Adam Pinks and Brick
Cat for Best Case Studios. The theme song was written
and composed by cole Vos, Bambianna and Myself. Original music
by Colevas. This episode was edited and scored by Michelle mclaman.
(31:24):
Our iHeart Team is Ali Perry and Carl Ketel. Following
rape Fighting Words Wherever You get your Podcast
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