September 2, 2025 • 34 mins
George is joined by Shahem Mclaurin, licensed therapist and social worker, with over 800K followers online. Shahem tells George about his story: how he never wanted to become a therapist until he learned how broken our mental care system is, and what white supremacy does to our mental health.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
White supremacy and patriarchy. Both of those things work in
tandem with one another. That has always been like at
the root of pretty much every issue we have as
a society.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Shahim McLaurin is a black and therapist and social worker,
also known online as doctor du Rag. Shahim's mission is
to help marginalize people deal with the stress and trauma
of living in a racist and patriarchal society. He has
his own therapy practice and has also built an online
platform with over eight hundred thousand followers where he shares
mental health information and tips.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
The reason we have school shootings, white supremacy, the reason
why we even have like people being bullied to the
point where they may want to do that. If you
read the manifestos, typically it's white supremacy. I think our
culture is just kind of like so deeply entrenched in
some of these toxic systems and institutions that haven't been
(00:59):
addressed over the course of centuries that it's it's just
rotted to his.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Core, singing in the heavy handed to put the world
take us to the branded, he spoke the guy who
know what the plan is of kame a Latin no
one to understand me.
Speaker 4 (01:18):
My name is Georgiam Johnson.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
I am the New York Times best selling author of
the book All Boys Aren't Blue, which is the number
one most challenged book.
Speaker 4 (01:27):
In the United States.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
This is Fighting Words, a show where we take you
to the front lines of the culture wars with the
people who are using their words to make change and
who refuse to be silent. On the show today, Shahem McLaurin.
We are here today with one of my good friends,
(01:51):
Shahe McLaurin.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
How are you doing. Welcome to Fighting Words.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Hey, I'm doing good. I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
Good. Good.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
We always start our show off the same way, I
think because of just how social media works. People perceive us. However,
they want to perceive us and not really know who
we are. So I always like my guests to introduce themselves.
So can you tell everyone who is Shahim McLaurin.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Okay, my name is Shahim. I am a licensed therapist
and social worker. I am a internet personality. Some would
say I talk about mental health, I talk about astrology,
I do social commentary, but I definitely take up a
lot of space in the mental health space online.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Okay, and what was it that got you started in
mental health care. You are from Baltimore, and I remember
you used to run a nonprofit that helped youth in Baltimore.
What was like that thing that made you want to
go into the mental health care space?
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Do you know what's so funny? Like I literally did
not want to be a therapist at all, Like that
was like the last thing I wanted to do. I
went to get my master's in social work because I
was community organizing and I ran a nonprofit, and I
was like, I wanted to sharpen my skills as an organizer.
I wanted to have better tools and stuff to like
(03:08):
organize within the community. And I just happened to wind
up on the macro and micro track when I went
to NYU, which was so many twisting turns. When I
was graduating from grad school, my mentor was pretty much like,
you need to get your boots on the ground. I
was of the vein of I'm going to go back
into like admin work. She said, oh, absolutely not. She
(03:32):
called a friend up and set me up with an interview.
And my first job that I wound up getting out
of grad school was as a family therapist, and it
just kind of like fit like a glove, Like I
was like kind of a natural at it. Yeah. So
that got me into the mental health space, and I
actually started to do more as far as online like
advocacy because of the lack of macro work. I love
(03:55):
macro work. I always wanted to organize and work on
a communal level. The pieces kind of fell together. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
And so, what are like some of the common things
that you phase it when it comes to mental health
in those willing to partake in it. What are some
of the difficulties that specifically black folks are facing just
trying to even get into the mental health care system.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
There's so many barriers both culturally legally. Hell, you name it,
every lead that you can, every lead you can find,
it's a little barrier there. I think like the first
barrier is like actually getting people in our community to
be invested in mental health and to take it seriously.
I cannot tell you how many battles I have had
(04:38):
on the internet, Like even introducing psycho educational terms, A
lot of people are just unfamiliar with the language overall,
which is unfortunate. Like, I think everybody deserves access to
mental health care, but it starts with language, Like you
can't really solve a problem you can't name, And unfortunately,
because of some cultural barriers and taboos, a lot of
(04:59):
people can't name the things that are happening. You know,
we all grew up with that one cousin who just
act a little funny, And people just can't direct anyone
towards mental health resources because it's just not something historically
that I think has been covered in our communities. It's
a barrier as far as like people being able to
afford mental health care. It is very expensive. Hell, I
(05:19):
pay for my therapist out of pocket and it is
not cheap. Plus there are a lot of misconceptions around
therapists and how therapists should be paid. It's like so
many barriers and layers. The Ivory Tower itself, like they're
not being like a lot of access to like the
educational programs required to be a therapist, like for black
people and other people of color. I can't really speak
(05:42):
for them too much, but the Black people, like it is,
we make up such a small percentage Black clinicians like
of who is operating in this field. So that's also
really difficult because a lot of people want to see
themselves reflected in their providers.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Yeah, it is still hard for me to even find
a black therapist or I tend to run into the
fact that black therapists are already by friends.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Yeah. Do you know I was at the club a
couple of weeks ago and somebody came up to me like,
can you please be my therapist? I'm like, we are
at the club. They literally slid me their number on
the napkin, like please reconsider it. I'm like, no, I cannot,
Like that's unethical, Like I can't meet you in a
club setting. That's like really wow.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
And now back to my conversation with Shahem McLaurin. Now
you've taken you know, the work that you've done, and
you built a platform on social media that addresses mental
health in a major way. You have a moniker. Doctor
do Rag is what some people call you. You've had
several names. I'm not going to say all of them online.
(06:49):
I think the most iconic was Marsha.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
No no no, no, no no.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
I don't know what that is, but a lot of
people know you on social media as doctor do Rag.
What made you want to like make this transition to
where clearly you have direct clients, but that you wanted
to just be able to create a platform where you
could give tidbits of wisdom for people who may not
be able to see a therapist, they could still get
some of those therapeutic needs met through your work.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
So yeah, like I said, like I was always an
organizer before, and it took a lot for me to
even leave that space and accept just being I'm not
gonna say just being because more than that, but being
a therapist was like it was a hard transition. And
I started sharing the information online because I know that
therapists inaccessible for a lot of people, and I know
(07:39):
a lot of people like should have access to mental
health care. And although my platform is not therapy, the
best I can do is provide psycho education insight, like
the things that I work with with my clients direct
people towards new forms of therapy, Like I'm specifically a
trauma therapist that uses the modality of embr Like a
(08:00):
lot of people didn't even know what that was until
like I talked about it on my platform. And it's
just like I want people to have access to information resources.
It doesn't have to be behind like a paywall, and
I try to share as much information as I can
because I want everybody to have like access frankly, and
I plan on doing a lot more in my future
(08:21):
in my career, like to make that more of a reality.
But that is ultimately the goal. I think people deserve
access to adequate mental health care and it shouldn't they
shouldn't have to pay.
Speaker 4 (08:30):
For it, right, And how has that been for you though?
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Like, through all of your platforms, you're probably at nearly
a million.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Followers, a little bit over a million.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
Yeah, what has that been like for you?
Speaker 2 (08:40):
I think a lot of people who, especially in this
day and age, like think that, like social media is
the way and having a large platform is the way,
But it does come with like you are talking about
mental health while also having a million people following you,
which could also play a toll on.
Speaker 4 (08:56):
Your own mental health.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
It does.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Can you just talk about like the pressures of having
a large platform.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Let me tell you something. It is like I walk
a tightrope. It feels like sometimes because a lot of
people have a lot of views around how mental health providers, therapists,
social workers, anyone in helping professions, like how we should
operate and exist outside of our jobs. A lot of
the times, like professions that are historically predominantly occupied by women,
(09:29):
those roles are typically frowned down upon and police very
heavily on the internet, like be it teachers or therapists,
like in any like I said, any other helping profession.
I have had people chastise me for sharing like my
own personal stories, having my own life outside of my job.
One time I tweeted like city girl lyrics and somebody
(09:50):
had like quoted it and was like, imagine coming online
and your therapists talking like this, and they didn't know
what city girl lyrics And I'm like, it's it's rap lyrics.
I'm a black person. I feel I still am black
even if my job is my job. But yeah, like
it's interesting. It is a lot of pressure, but also
like I know that I have to take it seriously
to a degree because at the same time, where I
(10:12):
am a person outside of this role that I occupy
in my job, I am also someone who has a
certain degree of authority in my field, and I do
have like my clients watching, like I have to really
be mindful of some of the ways I act and
move on the Internet. I have had my fair share
of controversies. Don't get me wrong, but it could be worse,
(10:34):
I promise if I wasn't like actually really respectful of
my profession. I know, like there are certain pieces of
advice I just don't give anymore. Like I used to
talk very in depth about like doing EMDR, for example,
but then people started trying to do it on themselves,
and like, this is actually very intensive trauma therapy. I'm
not going to be giving y'all that, Like y'all will
(10:54):
not reporting me to the board. Okay, this license is
not coming up off me. But yeah, it's like weird
too because I'm also at the same time navigating my
own mental health. It's not easy, but thankfully because I
really emphasize being a community centered clinician, Like I tell
my clients all the time, like when you work with me,
I become a member of your community. Although there is
(11:16):
like a power difference in like the dynamic. I am
a member of your community and I'm a human outside
of what this role that I'm occupying. I've had times
where I've shared like parts of my own journey and
it's like sparked really amazing conversations in my therapy sessions
with my clients, and again, like I'm just a human being. Like,
so any therapist you work with, any person you work with,
(11:39):
is going to be a human at the end of it.
And I think one of my goals, in addition to
making mental health care as accessible as possible, is to
humanize the profession because a lot of people really really
think therapists should just shut up and be offline, and
I don't think that's realistic, let alone fair, you know
what I mean.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
Yeah, I think it's important.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
I follow several mental health care therapists and workers and
I think like they do share like things that can
just help. In general, what is the actual mental health
(12:21):
crisis in the United States right now?
Speaker 1 (12:25):
White supremacy, White supremacy. It's always been white supremacy. That's
like it comes down to that and patriarchy. But both
of those things work in tandem with one another. That
has always been like at the root of pretty much
every issue we have as a society. The reason we
have school shootings, white supremacy, the reason why we even
(12:46):
have like people being bullied to the point where they
may want to do that. If you read the manifestos,
typically it's white supremacy, but not even just that like patriarchy.
I think our culture is just kind of like so
deeply entrenched in some of these toxic systems and institutions
that haven't been addressed over the course of centuries that
(13:07):
it's just rotted to his core. I think we keep
trying to like dance around it, and we try to
cure the symptoms, but we don't really get at the root.
It's white supremacy. There's this book, My Grandmother's Hands. He's
a therapist. He really digs deep into how white supremacy
lives in the body, how that trauma is passed down
from generation to generation, how white people have to unlearned
(13:30):
white supremacy and in the body, how black and brown
people have to do the same, how white supremacy really
does impact a person's mental health in every other aspect
of your life. It's very traumatizing to go through these
systems and institutions, especially when you're on the more marginalized
end of things, and it's even traumatizing for white people
(13:52):
to go through these systems and institutions, because ultimately the
goal of these systems and institutions is to humanize all
of us, and when you are dehumanized you are separated
from a really big important part of processing and navigating
the world mentally and emotionally, Like, you need to be
able to have access to your humanity, and any system
(14:12):
that narrows you down to certain aspects or identities is
going to ultimately strip you of that. Centuries and generations
and generations, even before the founding of America, where white
people were all up in Europe playing with the rats
and stuff, child torturing each other like that carries on.
It goes generation to generation, and I don't think it's
ever fully been addressed. A world is just not built
(14:33):
to really get to the meat of things and to
try and shift the culture away from the violence that
is patriarchy of white supremacy.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Yeah, and now your work does focus on patriarchy impacted people.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
You stated publicly, what does that mean?
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Like, again, because we're all affected by clearly we're all
affected by patriarchy, I still benefit from it. You know,
I'm presenting in the male form. What does that mean
that you focus on patriarchy impacted people in your work?
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Look, I am a rarity in this profession that I'm in,
Like there are other like black male clinicians, queer male
clinicians like love them down. We are a rarity in
this field. Black queer people are a rarity in this field.
Black people in general are rarity in this field. And
I know, like how important it is that people feel
like represented or not even just represented, like seen by
(15:22):
other people with multiple marginalized identities. With that in mind,
I prioritize working with women, black people, queer people, and
brown people like those are the people I'm going to
prioritize working with, sharing like the resource that is trauma
therapy with those people. Like the people who are further
on the margins in my opinion, like need the care
(15:43):
of the most and that is where I spend my energy.
So I predominantly work with people who are patriarchy impacted,
Like I think all of the groups that I just
named are like subject to being on a chopping block first,
and disabled people too.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
That makes a lot of sense though, like you said
to people who are on a chopping block first, I
was like, oh well yes, Now one of your videos
you state that mental health and conservatism are diametrically opposed.
Speaker 4 (16:07):
Absolutely, What does that mean?
Speaker 1 (16:09):
One of like the core values and social work one
of the codes of ethics is social justice. You have
to advocate for the poor, You have to advocate for women,
for children, for black and brown people, disabled people like
that is literally part of what you're signing up for,
to advocate for these marginalized communities. That is the ethical standard,
(16:30):
you know what I mean. And you cannot be someone
who supports like the marginalization, the imprisonment, the criminalization of
all of these groups and say that you are as
someone who is doing your job properly. You just cannot
be conservative and also a good therapist. It just does not.
I don't think it's possible. Trust me. I've heard a
(16:53):
lot of horror stories and have had to like kind
of go in after people who were conservative therapists and
work with those people to not be as traumatized by
the therapeutic experience because they were pretty much sent to
the wolves and Lord Jesus, I've had clients tell me
that their therapists would literally tell them that they need
(17:15):
to forgive their parents. And you know, that's a real
conservative value, family first, right, even if their parents are
abusive and negligent and every time they interact with them
their nervous system is completely shot. You'd be surprised the
type of horror stories I've heard and experience firsthand. I
don't think you can do it. But frankly, if you
(17:35):
want me to be petty, I think conservatives don't really
have like the empathy or the heart required to do
this work because they are cold hearted people. I don't
think it's possible to do both. It's a dissonance.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Yeah, that makes a ton of sense if your therapist
and your judgment is still based on like punishment and
you're then using that that same line of thing of
God's going to punish you, then, but that is a
conservative value.
Speaker 4 (18:03):
I guess I never thought about it like that.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
I can see how that could not be a good
thing for a client.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
And actually what you're talking about is like something so important.
It's the oh my god, I forget the exact language.
But it's about the evolution of morality, and some people
like really base their morality off of like structures and rules.
Conservatives as opposed to what's right, things that are ethical,
things that like should be happening. It's not always about
(18:30):
being like within legal limits. It's about actually like being
principled and like having an ethical standard of advocating for
marginalized people.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
And now back to my conversation with Shahim mclauren. Now,
with the rise of like artificial intelligence and people go
into chat GBC for mental health purposes, what are the
days of that?
Speaker 4 (19:01):
Because I think a lot of.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
People do need to really understand, Like, if you are
looking to get a paragraph rewritten better, then yes, baby,
Chad GBZ can help you.
Speaker 4 (19:13):
You should No, I don't think you should use it.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
I don't use it at all as a writer, but
clearly the girlies are using it now to make entire
movies and scripts and all kinds of things, which is.
Speaker 4 (19:21):
Why the industry is terrible.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Why should one not be going to a computer for
mental health services?
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Oh my god? Why shouldn't one go to a computer?
Therapy is about the relationship, and I don't think a
lot of people recognize that, Like, the therapeutic relationship is
the core of the entire therapeutic experience. Meaning if you're
someone who's experienced like, for example, like negligence at the
hands of your parents, or abuse at the hands of
(19:53):
expouses or something, you need to build safe relationships and
therapy the goal and it should be a safe relationship
where you can work through things like relational trauma. You
cannot do that with a robot. A robot can't check
you if you are going off the deep end. And
you know what, people were so upset when I said that,
when I was like, and it actually just it does
(20:15):
like in general, it's harmful. I'm an EMDR therapist. That's
a specialized form of therapy. It's intensive. When I say intensive, yeah,
it could literally re traumatize you. It's an intense trauma
therapy if you cannot do it without being guided properly.
And I had showcase like how you can even easily
like search up using chat GBT, how to do EMDR
(20:37):
on yourself, and it at first it like you know,
pushes against it, like you shouldn't be doing this by
yourself like this, you need a professional. And then if
you push up against it, it will literally give you step
by step incorrectly, step by step of like how you
can perform it on yourself. And it's just like people
are going to hurt themselves like doing this. And I
think it's because partially because people don't take mental health
(20:57):
seriously and they don't understand how close all of us
are to a break, like anybody can find themselves in
like a mental health crisis or having a breakdown at
any point. It just takes the right thing to push
you over the edge. But it's so funny because people
were so mad when I said it. They were like,
but like therapy is inaccessible, and I'm like, here are
(21:19):
like a ton of resources to where you can get
therapy at a reduced or for free. And it's like,
you actually aren't looking for these resources and I get it,
like these resources aren't readily available and they should be.
I'm working on and give me some time, but like
there are other options and alternatives. But it was either
like therapy is too expensive and it's like like are
you actually looking for therapy that's within your range? Like
(21:42):
you can try and find that, I know. But like
then it's also like, well it's you're just not asking
the right prompts. And it's like that is like literally
not true. Like yea, you are talking about AI that
is literally geared towards like satisfying you as a human being.
It's not about challenging you. It's not about like actually
catching things. The psychosis I was telling people, like, if
(22:03):
you're in a state of psychosis, like it can like
quite literally worsen your psychosis. I put in a prompt.
I was like, there's a celebrity whose music like they're
talking to me through their music, like they have a
crush on me, and how can I like get them
to like me back? Chat GPT is like, first, it's like,
of course, you should seek professional help, Like you should
(22:23):
challenge your reality. This might not be true. Try to
enjoy the music. And then I'm like, no, they're definitely
talking to me. And then chat GPT is like, yeah,
join a fan club, like try to get closest to them.
It's like teaching somebody how to stalk someone. Yeah, And
it's like and I'm like, I cannot emphasize enough like
that it is a slippery slope. And if you find
(22:45):
yourself in a position where you are like going to
an AI for your relationships, like it is going to
be harder for you to connect with human beings outside
of that. That's my tea. But after all of that
was said and done, and the people were still mad
at me because they were like, that's not like it's
like it's good. It's not the worst in the world.
This lady on TikTok then went at megaviral because she
(23:07):
thought her psychiatrists fell in love with her late I'm
not even gonna say her name, and people were like,
oh my god, this lady is like, this lady is
badshit crazy, and it's like, yeah, you think she's badshit crazy,
but she's in a state of psychosis. It's just public.
And then the lady gets on her lives and she
starts talking to two ais chat gbtais like named them
(23:27):
in everything, and the AI is telling her, yeah, like,
this psychiatrist was definitely in love with abused the power dynamic.
The psychiatrist was not in love with this lady. He
was setting boundaries with her the whole time, and she
would respond to his boundaries by thinking that was further
invitation for this love that she thought that he possessed.
And everybody can acknowledge that she was in a state
of psychosis and that she was definitely not like in
(23:51):
touch with reality but seeing in real time an example
of how AI can easily contribute to somebody being detached
from reality. Right, I ain't gonna hold you like I
like being able to say I told yourself. So that
was a big I told youself for me but I
don't want to be right in this example, and I
don't want people to have to prove me right. And
it was just it's unfortunate. But yeah, it's really a
(24:13):
dangerous thing. And people think like therapists because I've also
been accused like therapists just want to make more money.
It's like, no, we actually just don't want you to
create more work for us, because who is going to
have to clean up the mess after that? Like us? Right?
Speaker 2 (24:28):
So right, because essentially a therapist would didn't have to
unwind whichever wrong path a I took you down right
that had you.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
I'm already thinking about the notes. Oh my god, long
as hell, Like, please don't do that, y'all, Please don't
create the work for me. I would prefer if you didn't.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
And so for those who are out there who you know,
maybe hesitant about getting a therapist, what do you tell
people to try and get them, you know, more invested
in their mental health?
Speaker 4 (24:58):
That's the best way to put it.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
So about building a relationship, and who doesn't want to
build a relationship with somebody who is legally obligated to
keep your secrets unless you are threatening harm against someone
else or yourself. Okay, I think one of the best
investments a person can make in themselves it's actually taking
their mental health care seriously. And a lot of people
really think that they're fine and that everything's gucci and gravy.
(25:21):
But I can tell you, and this is like one
of like this is one of the things. I really
love it because it really does highlight like how real
it is. But everybody thinks that everything is cool until
they get into the romantic relationships. When you get into
the relationships, all of that trauma that you have, all
of that past, like how you were raised, it shows
up every single time. And we all have to work
(25:41):
on ourselves. We all have work to do on ourselves.
And I think it's really important to invest in your
mental health, Like it's just like anything else. You cannot
let your physical health deteriorate. You shouldn't if you can
control it. You should be checking in with yourself, checking
in with professionals as much as you can, as much
access you're allowed to it. But you should be doing
(26:02):
the same thing for your mental health care. People also
don't understand like how much mental health impacts everything about
like us, Like our mental health is thought to be
something that exists solely within the mind, when the reality
is that it is predominantly taking place in the body.
Stress hormones like cortisol are released when you when you're
under duress and you're having a hard time processing and
(26:23):
feeling your emotions. That shit causes sickness. It will make
you ill, like it actually impacts your physical health. There's
a reason why people say people can die from a
broken heart, Like depression can actually kill you. Outside of
you wanting to take your own life, it could actually
kill you, as in, it could stress you out to
the point where it makes you physically ill. It will
(26:45):
break your body down. Investing in your mental health is
so much more than just like being asked like and
how did that make you feel? It's about like actually
delving into the ways that you can take care of
yourself and function healthily. And don't get me wrong, if
you feel like you're well adjusted and you don't have
a lot of issues, people don't have a lot of
(27:07):
issues with you because some of y'all don't be thinking
you have issues, But your surroundings will tell you a
whole lot about that. I say, if you're fine, be fine,
But like, definitely, if you find yourself struggling with processing
your emotions, if you ain't cried in like seven seventeen years,
if you are having a hard time like in relationships,
(27:28):
if you're having a hard time navigating the stress of work,
if you feel burnt out and low to the ground,
you might need to go to therapy or not. That's
a choice. We ain't going to force you there, I promise. Well,
some programs, if you in jail, you might be mandated.
Speaker 4 (27:43):
That's so weird.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Yeah, you're also into astrology. You definitely pull the tarot
cards publicly, you've read some of mine.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
The fact that you're in this mental health field.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
That has a lot of rules and ethics and also
still very in tune with spirituality, which a lot of
times is boundless. So I do find it like a
very interesting like link up that like you're into like
the spiritual side of things, and that you're able to
kind of use that in you help people.
Speaker 4 (28:20):
What got you.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Into astrology and how do you use it as like
a guide?
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Well, first off, I'll say, like spirituality is really important
when it comes to your mental health care and mental
health work. If you are approaching therapy from a lens
that is not colonized, and you don't want to subscribe
solely to Western ideals around therapy that can be kind
of sterile. You're going to incorporate in some way, shape
(28:45):
or form, some form of respect for people's spirituality or
your own. Well got me into astrology, though, frankly I
don't know. Sometimes like people always ask like, how do
you know this much? And it's like I, frankly, I
don't know. I do be reading books, but I think
everybody should be in books, like please not ay, I
read your books, but I read I read books about astrology.
(29:06):
It's just like a hobby of mine. I will say,
I don't bring it into therapy unless my clients want
it brought into therapy. Like for me, it's like it's
something that I do outside of my job, and I
like to keep like, you know, I don't have to
incorporate everything every skill that I have. But I've had
sessions where clients would like have told me, oh, I'm
(29:26):
getting in a tearo and I'll be like, okay, shit,
like let me pull a card for you real quick.
Does like assess what you're going through. And it's like,
no matter what even if these things if you believe
them are not if they're true or not, Like it's
not really about that, it's these are helpful tools to
help people process and like decipher what they're going through.
And either way it could be a lesson turned from it.
(29:49):
Like that's how I think about it. Your son sign,
it's not even that important in astrology your sons sign.
I ain't gonna say it's not important at all. But
like in astrology, your son sign doesn't really say as
much as the rest of your t But if somebody
really connects with the fact that they're a scorpio like you,
like I would like say, what does that mean for you?
Where do you think these traits that you may align
(30:11):
with the most that are associated with scorpio, Like where
does that come from you? What part of your life
taught you that? Like why do you feel like it's important?
As far as like assessing your identity, Like it's just
you can do that with anything.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Though with every episode, we also like to discuss what
we are tired of. I used to have a column
called George is Tired back in the day, which I
think I'm gonna have to bring back real soon because
it's tired of so many things.
Speaker 4 (30:42):
I just have so many things.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
I want to say, What is something that you are
tired of going on in the world?
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Where do I begin? It's so much happening in the world.
I'm tired of the United States of America as a whole.
Every single body can get it. At this point. I'm
very disappointed with the you know what, I'm tired of
this push to the right. I will say that it's
been so disappointing, so so so, so so disappointing that
(31:10):
this country is like that, that window of tolerance has
been shifting further and further right. Yeah, and I'm just, yeah,
I am unfortunately here having to witness it. Yeah, I'm
ready to flee, though, I'll let you know that much.
That passport is ready.
Speaker 4 (31:25):
What country?
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Oh, you know, people keep asking me that, but I'm like,
I don't want to give it away because when Ice
is trying to chase me down to bring me back,
I don't want them to know. I want them to
have to drop on me. But I've narrowed it down
to three.
Speaker 4 (31:37):
Yeah, I know, that's what I know where I'm going.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
So that's funny. I narrowed it down to one, so
that to that point, it's like, oh, yeah, I already
know where I'm going. I got friends there already.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
I actually have my kill switch. When they make being
gay illegal, I'm out of here, Like y'a don't even
got to worry about me.
Speaker 4 (31:58):
Yeah, it's like, yeah, I'm okay.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
I'm definitely on my Josephine Baker, see you later, my
Tina Turner.
Speaker 4 (32:08):
I'm up out of here.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Tip exactly what I'd like to live by, Like certain quotes,
you know, like there's a book you want to read
and hasn't been written yet that you must write it.
That's like the one that kind of got my writing
career that was from Tony Morrison. Is there any like
quote that you live by, or any words that you
want to leave for our listeners as they venture back
out into the United States and the world if we
(32:31):
live in.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Yes, shouts out to I Tavia Butler. She said, all
that you touch, you change, and all that you change
changes you. I think those are words to live by,
being mindful of how you impact the people around you
and how the people around you impact you.
Speaker 4 (32:47):
Beautiful Shah.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
He ain't want to thank you for coming on fighting
words today.
Speaker 4 (32:51):
Thank you for the work that you do, and so
many communities.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Again, truly, truly, your words have not just helped a
lot of people, but healed a lot of people. And
healing work ain't easy, So we appreciate all those who
have to get in a ring and do it on
a daily basis.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Same to you, same to you. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Today's quote comes from Bell Hook's iconic poet and activists. Rarely,
if ever, are any of us healed in isolation. Healing
is an act of community. Fighting Word is a production
of iHeart podcast in partnership with Best Case Studios. I'm
(33:31):
Georgian Johnson. This episode was produced by Charlotte Morley. Executive
producers are myself and Tweety Puji gar Song with Adam
Pinks and Brick Cats for Best Case Studios. The theme
song was written and composed by cole Vos Bambianna and myself.
Speaker 4 (33:48):
Original music by Covas.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
This episode was edited and scored by Michelle macklam Our.
iHeart Team is Ali Perry and Carl Ketel.
Speaker 4 (33:59):
Following Rakee Fight Word Wherever you get your podcasts
White supremacy and patriarchy. Both of those things work in
tandem with one another. That has always been like at
the root of pretty much every issue we have as
a society.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Shahim McLaurin is a black and therapist and social worker,
also known online as doctor du Rag. Shahim's mission is
to help marginalize people deal with the stress and trauma
of living in a racist and patriarchal society. He has
his own therapy practice and has also built an online
platform with over eight hundred thousand followers where he shares
mental health information and tips.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
The reason we have school shootings, white supremacy, the reason
why we even have like people being bullied to the
point where they may want to do that. If you
read the manifestos, typically it's white supremacy. I think our
culture is just kind of like so deeply entrenched in
some of these toxic systems and institutions that haven't been
(00:59):
addressed over the course of centuries that it's it's just
rotted to his.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Core, singing in the heavy handed to put the world
take us to the branded, he spoke the guy who
know what the plan is of kame a Latin no
one to understand me.
Speaker 4 (01:18):
My name is Georgiam Johnson.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
I am the New York Times best selling author of
the book All Boys Aren't Blue, which is the number
one most challenged book.
Speaker 4 (01:27):
In the United States.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
This is Fighting Words, a show where we take you
to the front lines of the culture wars with the
people who are using their words to make change and
who refuse to be silent. On the show today, Shahem McLaurin.
We are here today with one of my good friends,
(01:51):
Shahe McLaurin.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
How are you doing. Welcome to Fighting Words.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Hey, I'm doing good. I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
Good. Good.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
We always start our show off the same way, I
think because of just how social media works. People perceive us. However,
they want to perceive us and not really know who
we are. So I always like my guests to introduce themselves.
So can you tell everyone who is Shahim McLaurin.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Okay, my name is Shahim. I am a licensed therapist
and social worker. I am a internet personality. Some would
say I talk about mental health, I talk about astrology,
I do social commentary, but I definitely take up a
lot of space in the mental health space online.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Okay, and what was it that got you started in
mental health care. You are from Baltimore, and I remember
you used to run a nonprofit that helped youth in Baltimore.
What was like that thing that made you want to
go into the mental health care space?
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Do you know what's so funny? Like I literally did
not want to be a therapist at all, Like that
was like the last thing I wanted to do. I
went to get my master's in social work because I
was community organizing and I ran a nonprofit, and I
was like, I wanted to sharpen my skills as an organizer.
I wanted to have better tools and stuff to like
(03:08):
organize within the community. And I just happened to wind
up on the macro and micro track when I went
to NYU, which was so many twisting turns. When I
was graduating from grad school, my mentor was pretty much like,
you need to get your boots on the ground. I
was of the vein of I'm going to go back
into like admin work. She said, oh, absolutely not. She
(03:32):
called a friend up and set me up with an interview.
And my first job that I wound up getting out
of grad school was as a family therapist, and it
just kind of like fit like a glove, Like I
was like kind of a natural at it. Yeah. So
that got me into the mental health space, and I
actually started to do more as far as online like
advocacy because of the lack of macro work. I love
(03:55):
macro work. I always wanted to organize and work on
a communal level. The pieces kind of fell together. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
And so, what are like some of the common things
that you phase it when it comes to mental health
in those willing to partake in it. What are some
of the difficulties that specifically black folks are facing just
trying to even get into the mental health care system.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
There's so many barriers both culturally legally. Hell, you name it,
every lead that you can, every lead you can find,
it's a little barrier there. I think like the first
barrier is like actually getting people in our community to
be invested in mental health and to take it seriously.
I cannot tell you how many battles I have had
(04:38):
on the internet, Like even introducing psycho educational terms, A
lot of people are just unfamiliar with the language overall,
which is unfortunate. Like, I think everybody deserves access to
mental health care, but it starts with language, Like you
can't really solve a problem you can't name, And unfortunately,
because of some cultural barriers and taboos, a lot of
(04:59):
people can't name the things that are happening. You know,
we all grew up with that one cousin who just
act a little funny, And people just can't direct anyone
towards mental health resources because it's just not something historically
that I think has been covered in our communities. It's
a barrier as far as like people being able to
afford mental health care. It is very expensive. Hell, I
(05:19):
pay for my therapist out of pocket and it is
not cheap. Plus there are a lot of misconceptions around
therapists and how therapists should be paid. It's like so
many barriers and layers. The Ivory Tower itself, like they're
not being like a lot of access to like the
educational programs required to be a therapist, like for black
people and other people of color. I can't really speak
(05:42):
for them too much, but the Black people, like it is,
we make up such a small percentage Black clinicians like
of who is operating in this field. So that's also
really difficult because a lot of people want to see
themselves reflected in their providers.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Yeah, it is still hard for me to even find
a black therapist or I tend to run into the
fact that black therapists are already by friends.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Yeah. Do you know I was at the club a
couple of weeks ago and somebody came up to me like,
can you please be my therapist? I'm like, we are
at the club. They literally slid me their number on
the napkin, like please reconsider it. I'm like, no, I cannot,
Like that's unethical, Like I can't meet you in a
club setting. That's like really wow.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
And now back to my conversation with Shahem McLaurin. Now
you've taken you know, the work that you've done, and
you built a platform on social media that addresses mental
health in a major way. You have a moniker. Doctor
do Rag is what some people call you. You've had
several names. I'm not going to say all of them online.
(06:49):
I think the most iconic was Marsha.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
No no no, no, no no.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
I don't know what that is, but a lot of
people know you on social media as doctor do Rag.
What made you want to like make this transition to
where clearly you have direct clients, but that you wanted
to just be able to create a platform where you
could give tidbits of wisdom for people who may not
be able to see a therapist, they could still get
some of those therapeutic needs met through your work.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
So yeah, like I said, like I was always an
organizer before, and it took a lot for me to
even leave that space and accept just being I'm not
gonna say just being because more than that, but being
a therapist was like it was a hard transition. And
I started sharing the information online because I know that
therapists inaccessible for a lot of people, and I know
(07:39):
a lot of people like should have access to mental
health care. And although my platform is not therapy, the
best I can do is provide psycho education insight, like
the things that I work with with my clients direct
people towards new forms of therapy, Like I'm specifically a
trauma therapist that uses the modality of embr Like a
(08:00):
lot of people didn't even know what that was until
like I talked about it on my platform. And it's
just like I want people to have access to information resources.
It doesn't have to be behind like a paywall, and
I try to share as much information as I can
because I want everybody to have like access frankly, and
I plan on doing a lot more in my future
(08:21):
in my career, like to make that more of a reality.
But that is ultimately the goal. I think people deserve
access to adequate mental health care and it shouldn't they
shouldn't have to pay.
Speaker 4 (08:30):
For it, right, And how has that been for you though?
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Like, through all of your platforms, you're probably at nearly
a million.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Followers, a little bit over a million.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
Yeah, what has that been like for you?
Speaker 2 (08:40):
I think a lot of people who, especially in this
day and age, like think that, like social media is
the way and having a large platform is the way,
But it does come with like you are talking about
mental health while also having a million people following you,
which could also play a toll on.
Speaker 4 (08:56):
Your own mental health.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
It does.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Can you just talk about like the pressures of having
a large platform.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Let me tell you something. It is like I walk
a tightrope. It feels like sometimes because a lot of
people have a lot of views around how mental health providers, therapists,
social workers, anyone in helping professions, like how we should
operate and exist outside of our jobs. A lot of
the times, like professions that are historically predominantly occupied by women,
(09:29):
those roles are typically frowned down upon and police very
heavily on the internet, like be it teachers or therapists,
like in any like I said, any other helping profession.
I have had people chastise me for sharing like my
own personal stories, having my own life outside of my job.
One time I tweeted like city girl lyrics and somebody
(09:50):
had like quoted it and was like, imagine coming online
and your therapists talking like this, and they didn't know
what city girl lyrics And I'm like, it's it's rap lyrics.
I'm a black person. I feel I still am black
even if my job is my job. But yeah, like
it's interesting. It is a lot of pressure, but also
like I know that I have to take it seriously
to a degree because at the same time, where I
(10:12):
am a person outside of this role that I occupy
in my job, I am also someone who has a
certain degree of authority in my field, and I do
have like my clients watching, like I have to really
be mindful of some of the ways I act and
move on the Internet. I have had my fair share
of controversies. Don't get me wrong, but it could be worse,
(10:34):
I promise if I wasn't like actually really respectful of
my profession. I know, like there are certain pieces of
advice I just don't give anymore. Like I used to
talk very in depth about like doing EMDR, for example,
but then people started trying to do it on themselves,
and like, this is actually very intensive trauma therapy. I'm
not going to be giving y'all that, Like y'all will
(10:54):
not reporting me to the board. Okay, this license is
not coming up off me. But yeah, it's like weird
too because I'm also at the same time navigating my
own mental health. It's not easy, but thankfully because I
really emphasize being a community centered clinician, Like I tell
my clients all the time, like when you work with me,
I become a member of your community. Although there is
(11:16):
like a power difference in like the dynamic. I am
a member of your community and I'm a human outside
of what this role that I'm occupying. I've had times
where I've shared like parts of my own journey and
it's like sparked really amazing conversations in my therapy sessions
with my clients, and again, like I'm just a human being. Like,
so any therapist you work with, any person you work with,
(11:39):
is going to be a human at the end of it.
And I think one of my goals, in addition to
making mental health care as accessible as possible, is to
humanize the profession because a lot of people really really
think therapists should just shut up and be offline, and
I don't think that's realistic, let alone fair, you know
what I mean.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
Yeah, I think it's important.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
I follow several mental health care therapists and workers and
I think like they do share like things that can
just help. In general, what is the actual mental health
(12:21):
crisis in the United States right now?
Speaker 1 (12:25):
White supremacy, White supremacy. It's always been white supremacy. That's
like it comes down to that and patriarchy. But both
of those things work in tandem with one another. That
has always been like at the root of pretty much
every issue we have as a society. The reason we
have school shootings, white supremacy, the reason why we even
(12:46):
have like people being bullied to the point where they
may want to do that. If you read the manifestos,
typically it's white supremacy, but not even just that like patriarchy.
I think our culture is just kind of like so
deeply entrenched in some of these toxic systems and institutions
that haven't been addressed over the course of centuries that
(13:07):
it's just rotted to his core. I think we keep
trying to like dance around it, and we try to
cure the symptoms, but we don't really get at the root.
It's white supremacy. There's this book, My Grandmother's Hands. He's
a therapist. He really digs deep into how white supremacy
lives in the body, how that trauma is passed down
from generation to generation, how white people have to unlearned
(13:30):
white supremacy and in the body, how black and brown
people have to do the same, how white supremacy really
does impact a person's mental health in every other aspect
of your life. It's very traumatizing to go through these
systems and institutions, especially when you're on the more marginalized
end of things, and it's even traumatizing for white people
(13:52):
to go through these systems and institutions, because ultimately the
goal of these systems and institutions is to humanize all
of us, and when you are dehumanized you are separated
from a really big important part of processing and navigating
the world mentally and emotionally, Like, you need to be
able to have access to your humanity, and any system
(14:12):
that narrows you down to certain aspects or identities is
going to ultimately strip you of that. Centuries and generations
and generations, even before the founding of America, where white
people were all up in Europe playing with the rats
and stuff, child torturing each other like that carries on.
It goes generation to generation, and I don't think it's
ever fully been addressed. A world is just not built
(14:33):
to really get to the meat of things and to
try and shift the culture away from the violence that
is patriarchy of white supremacy.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Yeah, and now your work does focus on patriarchy impacted people.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
You stated publicly, what does that mean?
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Like, again, because we're all affected by clearly we're all
affected by patriarchy, I still benefit from it. You know,
I'm presenting in the male form. What does that mean
that you focus on patriarchy impacted people in your work?
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Look, I am a rarity in this profession that I'm in,
Like there are other like black male clinicians, queer male
clinicians like love them down. We are a rarity in
this field. Black queer people are a rarity in this field.
Black people in general are rarity in this field. And
I know, like how important it is that people feel
like represented or not even just represented, like seen by
(15:22):
other people with multiple marginalized identities. With that in mind,
I prioritize working with women, black people, queer people, and
brown people like those are the people I'm going to
prioritize working with, sharing like the resource that is trauma
therapy with those people. Like the people who are further
on the margins in my opinion, like need the care
(15:43):
of the most and that is where I spend my energy.
So I predominantly work with people who are patriarchy impacted,
Like I think all of the groups that I just
named are like subject to being on a chopping block first,
and disabled people too.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
That makes a lot of sense though, like you said
to people who are on a chopping block first, I
was like, oh well yes, Now one of your videos
you state that mental health and conservatism are diametrically opposed.
Speaker 4 (16:07):
Absolutely, What does that mean?
Speaker 1 (16:09):
One of like the core values and social work one
of the codes of ethics is social justice. You have
to advocate for the poor, You have to advocate for women,
for children, for black and brown people, disabled people like
that is literally part of what you're signing up for,
to advocate for these marginalized communities. That is the ethical standard,
(16:30):
you know what I mean. And you cannot be someone
who supports like the marginalization, the imprisonment, the criminalization of
all of these groups and say that you are as
someone who is doing your job properly. You just cannot
be conservative and also a good therapist. It just does not.
I don't think it's possible. Trust me. I've heard a
(16:53):
lot of horror stories and have had to like kind
of go in after people who were conservative therapists and
work with those people to not be as traumatized by
the therapeutic experience because they were pretty much sent to
the wolves and Lord Jesus, I've had clients tell me
that their therapists would literally tell them that they need
(17:15):
to forgive their parents. And you know, that's a real
conservative value, family first, right, even if their parents are
abusive and negligent and every time they interact with them
their nervous system is completely shot. You'd be surprised the
type of horror stories I've heard and experience firsthand. I
don't think you can do it. But frankly, if you
(17:35):
want me to be petty, I think conservatives don't really
have like the empathy or the heart required to do
this work because they are cold hearted people. I don't
think it's possible to do both. It's a dissonance.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Yeah, that makes a ton of sense if your therapist
and your judgment is still based on like punishment and
you're then using that that same line of thing of
God's going to punish you, then, but that is a
conservative value.
Speaker 4 (18:03):
I guess I never thought about it like that.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
I can see how that could not be a good
thing for a client.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
And actually what you're talking about is like something so important.
It's the oh my god, I forget the exact language.
But it's about the evolution of morality, and some people
like really base their morality off of like structures and rules.
Conservatives as opposed to what's right, things that are ethical,
things that like should be happening. It's not always about
(18:30):
being like within legal limits. It's about actually like being
principled and like having an ethical standard of advocating for
marginalized people.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
And now back to my conversation with Shahim mclauren. Now,
with the rise of like artificial intelligence and people go
into chat GBC for mental health purposes, what are the
days of that?
Speaker 4 (19:01):
Because I think a lot of.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
People do need to really understand, Like, if you are
looking to get a paragraph rewritten better, then yes, baby,
Chad GBZ can help you.
Speaker 4 (19:13):
You should No, I don't think you should use it.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
I don't use it at all as a writer, but
clearly the girlies are using it now to make entire
movies and scripts and all kinds of things, which is.
Speaker 4 (19:21):
Why the industry is terrible.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Why should one not be going to a computer for
mental health services?
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Oh my god? Why shouldn't one go to a computer?
Therapy is about the relationship, and I don't think a
lot of people recognize that, Like, the therapeutic relationship is
the core of the entire therapeutic experience. Meaning if you're
someone who's experienced like, for example, like negligence at the
hands of your parents, or abuse at the hands of
(19:53):
expouses or something, you need to build safe relationships and
therapy the goal and it should be a safe relationship
where you can work through things like relational trauma. You
cannot do that with a robot. A robot can't check
you if you are going off the deep end. And
you know what, people were so upset when I said that,
when I was like, and it actually just it does
(20:15):
like in general, it's harmful. I'm an EMDR therapist. That's
a specialized form of therapy. It's intensive. When I say intensive, yeah,
it could literally re traumatize you. It's an intense trauma
therapy if you cannot do it without being guided properly.
And I had showcase like how you can even easily
like search up using chat GBT, how to do EMDR
(20:37):
on yourself, and it at first it like you know,
pushes against it, like you shouldn't be doing this by
yourself like this, you need a professional. And then if
you push up against it, it will literally give you step
by step incorrectly, step by step of like how you
can perform it on yourself. And it's just like people
are going to hurt themselves like doing this. And I
think it's because partially because people don't take mental health
(20:57):
seriously and they don't understand how close all of us
are to a break, like anybody can find themselves in
like a mental health crisis or having a breakdown at
any point. It just takes the right thing to push
you over the edge. But it's so funny because people
were so mad when I said it. They were like,
but like therapy is inaccessible, and I'm like, here are
(21:19):
like a ton of resources to where you can get
therapy at a reduced or for free. And it's like,
you actually aren't looking for these resources and I get it,
like these resources aren't readily available and they should be.
I'm working on and give me some time, but like
there are other options and alternatives. But it was either
like therapy is too expensive and it's like like are
you actually looking for therapy that's within your range? Like
(21:42):
you can try and find that, I know. But like
then it's also like, well it's you're just not asking
the right prompts. And it's like that is like literally
not true. Like yea, you are talking about AI that
is literally geared towards like satisfying you as a human being.
It's not about challenging you. It's not about like actually
catching things. The psychosis I was telling people, like, if
(22:03):
you're in a state of psychosis, like it can like
quite literally worsen your psychosis. I put in a prompt.
I was like, there's a celebrity whose music like they're
talking to me through their music, like they have a
crush on me, and how can I like get them
to like me back? Chat GPT is like, first, it's like,
of course, you should seek professional help, Like you should
(22:23):
challenge your reality. This might not be true. Try to
enjoy the music. And then I'm like, no, they're definitely
talking to me. And then chat GPT is like, yeah,
join a fan club, like try to get closest to them.
It's like teaching somebody how to stalk someone. Yeah, And
it's like and I'm like, I cannot emphasize enough like
that it is a slippery slope. And if you find
(22:45):
yourself in a position where you are like going to
an AI for your relationships, like it is going to
be harder for you to connect with human beings outside
of that. That's my tea. But after all of that
was said and done, and the people were still mad
at me because they were like, that's not like it's
like it's good. It's not the worst in the world.
This lady on TikTok then went at megaviral because she
(23:07):
thought her psychiatrists fell in love with her late I'm
not even gonna say her name, and people were like,
oh my god, this lady is like, this lady is
badshit crazy, and it's like, yeah, you think she's badshit crazy,
but she's in a state of psychosis. It's just public.
And then the lady gets on her lives and she
starts talking to two ais chat gbtais like named them
(23:27):
in everything, and the AI is telling her, yeah, like,
this psychiatrist was definitely in love with abused the power dynamic.
The psychiatrist was not in love with this lady. He
was setting boundaries with her the whole time, and she
would respond to his boundaries by thinking that was further
invitation for this love that she thought that he possessed.
And everybody can acknowledge that she was in a state
of psychosis and that she was definitely not like in
(23:51):
touch with reality but seeing in real time an example
of how AI can easily contribute to somebody being detached
from reality. Right, I ain't gonna hold you like I
like being able to say I told yourself. So that
was a big I told youself for me but I
don't want to be right in this example, and I
don't want people to have to prove me right. And
it was just it's unfortunate. But yeah, it's really a
(24:13):
dangerous thing. And people think like therapists because I've also
been accused like therapists just want to make more money.
It's like, no, we actually just don't want you to
create more work for us, because who is going to
have to clean up the mess after that? Like us? Right?
Speaker 2 (24:28):
So right, because essentially a therapist would didn't have to
unwind whichever wrong path a I took you down right
that had you.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
I'm already thinking about the notes. Oh my god, long
as hell, Like, please don't do that, y'all, Please don't
create the work for me. I would prefer if you didn't.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
And so for those who are out there who you know,
maybe hesitant about getting a therapist, what do you tell
people to try and get them, you know, more invested
in their mental health?
Speaker 4 (24:58):
That's the best way to put it.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
So about building a relationship, and who doesn't want to
build a relationship with somebody who is legally obligated to
keep your secrets unless you are threatening harm against someone
else or yourself. Okay, I think one of the best
investments a person can make in themselves it's actually taking
their mental health care seriously. And a lot of people
really think that they're fine and that everything's gucci and gravy.
(25:21):
But I can tell you, and this is like one
of like this is one of the things. I really
love it because it really does highlight like how real
it is. But everybody thinks that everything is cool until
they get into the romantic relationships. When you get into
the relationships, all of that trauma that you have, all
of that past, like how you were raised, it shows
up every single time. And we all have to work
(25:41):
on ourselves. We all have work to do on ourselves.
And I think it's really important to invest in your
mental health, Like it's just like anything else. You cannot
let your physical health deteriorate. You shouldn't if you can
control it. You should be checking in with yourself, checking
in with professionals as much as you can, as much
access you're allowed to it. But you should be doing
(26:02):
the same thing for your mental health care. People also
don't understand like how much mental health impacts everything about
like us, Like our mental health is thought to be
something that exists solely within the mind, when the reality
is that it is predominantly taking place in the body.
Stress hormones like cortisol are released when you when you're
under duress and you're having a hard time processing and
(26:23):
feeling your emotions. That shit causes sickness. It will make
you ill, like it actually impacts your physical health. There's
a reason why people say people can die from a
broken heart, Like depression can actually kill you. Outside of
you wanting to take your own life, it could actually
kill you, as in, it could stress you out to
the point where it makes you physically ill. It will
(26:45):
break your body down. Investing in your mental health is
so much more than just like being asked like and
how did that make you feel? It's about like actually
delving into the ways that you can take care of
yourself and function healthily. And don't get me wrong, if
you feel like you're well adjusted and you don't have
a lot of issues, people don't have a lot of
(27:07):
issues with you because some of y'all don't be thinking
you have issues, But your surroundings will tell you a
whole lot about that. I say, if you're fine, be fine,
But like, definitely, if you find yourself struggling with processing
your emotions, if you ain't cried in like seven seventeen years,
if you are having a hard time like in relationships,
(27:28):
if you're having a hard time navigating the stress of work,
if you feel burnt out and low to the ground,
you might need to go to therapy or not. That's
a choice. We ain't going to force you there, I promise. Well,
some programs, if you in jail, you might be mandated.
Speaker 4 (27:43):
That's so weird.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Yeah, you're also into astrology. You definitely pull the tarot
cards publicly, you've read some of mine.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
The fact that you're in this mental health field.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
That has a lot of rules and ethics and also
still very in tune with spirituality, which a lot of
times is boundless. So I do find it like a
very interesting like link up that like you're into like
the spiritual side of things, and that you're able to
kind of use that in you help people.
Speaker 4 (28:20):
What got you.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Into astrology and how do you use it as like
a guide?
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Well, first off, I'll say, like spirituality is really important
when it comes to your mental health care and mental
health work. If you are approaching therapy from a lens
that is not colonized, and you don't want to subscribe
solely to Western ideals around therapy that can be kind
of sterile. You're going to incorporate in some way, shape
(28:45):
or form, some form of respect for people's spirituality or
your own. Well got me into astrology, though, frankly I
don't know. Sometimes like people always ask like, how do
you know this much? And it's like I, frankly, I
don't know. I do be reading books, but I think
everybody should be in books, like please not ay, I
read your books, but I read I read books about astrology.
(29:06):
It's just like a hobby of mine. I will say,
I don't bring it into therapy unless my clients want
it brought into therapy. Like for me, it's like it's
something that I do outside of my job, and I
like to keep like, you know, I don't have to
incorporate everything every skill that I have. But I've had
sessions where clients would like have told me, oh, I'm
(29:26):
getting in a tearo and I'll be like, okay, shit,
like let me pull a card for you real quick.
Does like assess what you're going through. And it's like,
no matter what even if these things if you believe
them are not if they're true or not, Like it's
not really about that, it's these are helpful tools to
help people process and like decipher what they're going through.
And either way it could be a lesson turned from it.
(29:49):
Like that's how I think about it. Your son sign,
it's not even that important in astrology your sons sign.
I ain't gonna say it's not important at all. But
like in astrology, your son sign doesn't really say as
much as the rest of your t But if somebody
really connects with the fact that they're a scorpio like you,
like I would like say, what does that mean for you?
Where do you think these traits that you may align
(30:11):
with the most that are associated with scorpio, Like where
does that come from you? What part of your life
taught you that? Like why do you feel like it's important?
As far as like assessing your identity, Like it's just
you can do that with anything.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Though with every episode, we also like to discuss what
we are tired of. I used to have a column
called George is Tired back in the day, which I
think I'm gonna have to bring back real soon because
it's tired of so many things.
Speaker 4 (30:42):
I just have so many things.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
I want to say, What is something that you are
tired of going on in the world?
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Where do I begin? It's so much happening in the world.
I'm tired of the United States of America as a whole.
Every single body can get it. At this point. I'm
very disappointed with the you know what, I'm tired of
this push to the right. I will say that it's
been so disappointing, so so so, so so disappointing that
(31:10):
this country is like that, that window of tolerance has
been shifting further and further right. Yeah, and I'm just, yeah,
I am unfortunately here having to witness it. Yeah, I'm
ready to flee, though, I'll let you know that much.
That passport is ready.
Speaker 4 (31:25):
What country?
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Oh, you know, people keep asking me that, but I'm like,
I don't want to give it away because when Ice
is trying to chase me down to bring me back,
I don't want them to know. I want them to
have to drop on me. But I've narrowed it down
to three.
Speaker 4 (31:37):
Yeah, I know, that's what I know where I'm going.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
So that's funny. I narrowed it down to one, so
that to that point, it's like, oh, yeah, I already
know where I'm going. I got friends there already.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
I actually have my kill switch. When they make being
gay illegal, I'm out of here, Like y'a don't even
got to worry about me.
Speaker 4 (31:58):
Yeah, it's like, yeah, I'm okay.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
I'm definitely on my Josephine Baker, see you later, my
Tina Turner.
Speaker 4 (32:08):
I'm up out of here.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Tip exactly what I'd like to live by, Like certain quotes,
you know, like there's a book you want to read
and hasn't been written yet that you must write it.
That's like the one that kind of got my writing
career that was from Tony Morrison. Is there any like
quote that you live by, or any words that you
want to leave for our listeners as they venture back
out into the United States and the world if we
(32:31):
live in.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Yes, shouts out to I Tavia Butler. She said, all
that you touch, you change, and all that you change
changes you. I think those are words to live by,
being mindful of how you impact the people around you
and how the people around you impact you.
Speaker 4 (32:47):
Beautiful Shah.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
He ain't want to thank you for coming on fighting
words today.
Speaker 4 (32:51):
Thank you for the work that you do, and so
many communities.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Again, truly, truly, your words have not just helped a
lot of people, but healed a lot of people. And
healing work ain't easy, So we appreciate all those who
have to get in a ring and do it on
a daily basis.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Same to you, same to you. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Today's quote comes from Bell Hook's iconic poet and activists. Rarely,
if ever, are any of us healed in isolation. Healing
is an act of community. Fighting Word is a production
of iHeart podcast in partnership with Best Case Studios. I'm
(33:31):
Georgian Johnson. This episode was produced by Charlotte Morley. Executive
producers are myself and Tweety Puji gar Song with Adam
Pinks and Brick Cats for Best Case Studios. The theme
song was written and composed by cole Vos Bambianna and myself.
Speaker 4 (33:48):
Original music by Covas.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
This episode was edited and scored by Michelle macklam Our.
iHeart Team is Ali Perry and Carl Ketel.
Speaker 4 (33:59):
Following Rakee Fight Word Wherever you get your podcasts
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.