Jack Thorne (writer / playwright / Lord Of The Flies / His Dark Materials) • #330 - Films To Be Buried With with Brett Goldstein

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Look out. It's only films to be buried with. Hello,
and welcome to Films to be buried with. My name
is Brett Goldstein. I'm a comedian, an actor, a writer,
a director at knuckle Cracker, and I love films. As

(00:22):
Elizabeth Gilbert once said, you have treasures hidden within you,
much like Adam Sandler in the beginning of Uncut Germs,
ooh interesting. Every week I'm by a special guest over.
I tell them they've died, and I get them to
discuss their life through the films that meant the most
of them. Previous guests include Barry Jenkins, Kevin Smith, Sharon Stone,
and even Ked Campbell's. But this week we have the
incredible playwright, TV writer, screenwriter and producer. It's the brilliant

(00:47):
Jack Thorne. Tickets are on sale for the second Best
Night of Your Life special taping in Englewood, New Jersey.
Episode eleven of Shrinking Season two is now available on
Apple TV. Get caught up on all of them ahead
of the season finale on Chris You will fucking love It.
Head over to the Patreon at patreon dot com. Forward
slashpreat Gold Team. We're get an extra twenty minutes of
chat with Jack. We talk secrets, we talk about beginnings,

(01:10):
we talk about all kinds of stuff. You also get
the whole episode Uncle and Adfrey and does a video.
Check it out at patreon dot com. Forward to Lash
Brett Goldsteam. So Jack Thorn, I am such a huge
fan of Jack Dawn. You may know him from writing
the stage play Harry Potter and the Cursed Child. You
might know him from the Film's Wonder and in Nola Holmes.
You might know him from his series of his Dark materials.

(01:31):
You might know him from the old Vic Christmas Carol
that happens yearly. Now, you might know him from so
many things, all of them incredible. I'm such a huge
fan of Jack. We recorded this on Zoom and I
was very grateful for his time, and I really think
you're gonna love this one. So that is it for now.
I very much hope you enjoy episode three hundred and
thirty of Films to be Buried With. Hello, and welcome

(02:03):
to Films to be Buried With. It is I Brett Goldstein,
and I am joined today by a legend, a writer,
a dark material, a national treasure, a helper at this
Sister Englander and Eddia an Era not a fader, a
secret gardener. The list goes on, I don't have all

(02:24):
the time on this podcast. List of all his achievements,
he's done, the top two best versions of a Christmas Carol.
He's a genius. I've been wanting to talk to him
for years. I can't believe he's here. If you've watched
the Telly or been to the to see a stage
play or seen a film, you've seen all this stuff.

(02:47):
The man's amazing. I can't believe he's here. He is here.
Please run the show. It's the brilliant it's.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
Jack not.

Speaker 3 (02:53):
Thank you very much, You're very kind.

Speaker 1 (02:55):
I am aware, yeah, no, I'm aware how.

Speaker 3 (02:57):
Much Muppet Christmas Girl means to you.

Speaker 2 (03:00):
And so you know, I'm aware that my version of
Christmas Carol sits in the shadow of greatness, and you know,
I think, but it's number two.

Speaker 1 (03:11):
The fact that it's that close, it's pretty incredible. If
we met, I mean, god, there's Look, you're one of
the people I've had on this podcast that I'm almost
annoyed to talk to you because I have so many
things I want to ask you. I'm such a fan
and I know we have only enough time before at
some point you're probably going to be murdered or who knows.
I see if I remember. But I've been a big

(03:31):
fan of yours for years. And then you look up
your CV and you go, I haven't seen half of
your stuff, and I've seen loads and loads and loads
of your stuff, and there's your so much stuff I
haven't seen.

Speaker 2 (03:43):
Freed from the burden of scene, I always say. And
when people say, what have you written, I always say,
if you've seen something depressing on Channel four, there's a
fifty percent chance I wrote it's that's my sort of like, yeah, that's.

Speaker 1 (03:56):
Where I live in terms of like I was thinking.
The only person I think it's close to you is
like Russell T. Davis in terms of output and quality
and what's the word, difference of genres and spanning things,
and that is very kind.

Speaker 2 (04:11):
Russell is the master a word a word that he
probably wouldn't like me to use, because doctor who, But
he is the master. He is, you know, like you know,
we all sit in his shadow. I think that's the
second time I've mentioned the word shadow.

Speaker 1 (04:23):
But there we are. God, I sort of want to
do a bass class with you. I'm curious. Okay, I'm
going to try and not ask you about everything, but
the first thing I want to ask is you are
so prolific and in a way, the output, the speed
of your output is amazing and it's always brilliant. Do
you write fast? Firstly, what is the thing that makes

(04:45):
you choose the thing? What turns you on to like, oh,
I want to do this next, because it's so different
all your stuff.

Speaker 2 (04:50):
Well, I mean's just neurance that I hate the word prolific,
and I sort of hate I know, because I always think.

Speaker 3 (04:57):
It implies you don't give a shit.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
I absolutely that you're like the guy that's like, you
want six bananas, I can give you twelve bananas.

Speaker 1 (05:06):
I can give you eighteen bananas. Mean you know you're
like I do, but I don't mean that. But I
can understand your fear.

Speaker 2 (05:12):
And it doesn't ever feel like I mean, it's been
quite a while since I've had something on TV, for instance,
or anything new on stage that mean, you know, I've
actually not had something on for a while. But I
recognize that that's my reputation amongst some people who aware
of me, And yes, I get very frightened of it
because I think that I live in fear, and so

(05:34):
I write quickly because I'm frightened it's going to stop.

Speaker 3 (05:38):
And I love my job.

Speaker 2 (05:40):
I work in a little hut at the back of
my house and I'm in there from ten till seven
o'clock every day, and I like writing, so I just
keep writing and just keep typing. It's got no internet connection,
so it's literally just me and my thoughts going wild
and mad at the same time.

Speaker 1 (06:02):
That's the the no internet connection is probably the key
that we were all looking for.

Speaker 2 (06:08):
Anuinely, it's changed. It's only been the last few years,
and it's literally changed everything for me. I've felt a
sort of sharpness return to me that I sort of lost.
I felt like I was getting a bit sloppy and
I needed to do something. And it certainly helped the
signapses a little bit. How do you choose projects?

Speaker 1 (06:28):
I know immediately, I think, because it's always instant. It's like,
oh fuck, I love that idea. I get excited. I
just get as soon as I get I hear something
or have a Sometimes people will tell me something, I'll
be like, oh, yeah, I see that, I see how
you do that? Like I just get that's really cool.

Speaker 2 (06:42):
I'm excited, and can you see your place in it immediately?
I don't mean as a performer, I mean as a writer.
Can you see why it has to be told by you?

Speaker 1 (06:50):
This isn't about me, Jack, But I don't know. I mean, well,
I've realized as an actor. Okay, i'll tell you a
little thing. I don't do it lot of acting, but
when I'm really drawn to something, I really want to
do it. And recently I was offered a part in
a thing with a great team, great, great. Everything about
it was great. The package was great, and the team,

(07:12):
my agents and everyone like, you have to do this
is huge, you know, blah blah blah. And the script
was good. It was all good. But I kept reading
it and I was like, I don't see myself in
this part. I just can't sort of connect with this character,
even though I can see the business wise is a
very good thing for me to do this, but I
don't see it. I realized after ages. I just kept
reading it and being like, I have a sort of
visual of me doing this, and there was a much

(07:34):
smaller part in it that I did see myself doing.
And I said to my people, I was like, I
want to play that part and they were like, you're mad,
that's not the leads, you know what I mean? And
I was like, no, but I feel that. And anyway,
I ended up doing that little part, and when I
met the person who had the big part, I said
to them, they didn't know that I had ever been
you know, I didn't want to be like I nearly
had that part. Really lucky I turned it down. I

(07:58):
asked them why what drew you to this part? You
did you just want to do this because of the
job or and he said, oh, because this character is
my brother and I totally felt it. Oh wow, And
I was like, yes, you were the right person for that,
you know what I mean? Like it all it all
made sense, and I think I feel I have a
maybe more capacity as I don't know with writing. I

(08:20):
always someone will say something with an idea. Was Park
going to be like fuck? Yeah, fucking you want to
see it through? There's often stuff I hear and I go,
that's great. I don't want to write that, but I'd
love to see it.

Speaker 3 (08:30):
Yeah, that's ultimate.

Speaker 1 (08:31):
How did you turn this on me? You've no no?
Is that? Okay? Never again? That's the end of this episode. Okay, okay.
So the other thing I wanted to ask you is
you've all said done, and honestly, I'm such a fans
to please. All of this is with thinking that the
end result is fucking brilliant. You've taken on big, big
classics and you're doing one now things that could be intimidating.

(08:53):
You've done. You've done a Harry Potter play, You've done
a Christmas Carol, which we will discuss. You're doing Lord
of the Rings, like these are a lot of the flights.
I'm not doing a lot of the rings.

Speaker 3 (09:03):
A lot of the rings would send me.

Speaker 1 (09:04):
Man a load of the flies. And these are like
intimidating works to step into. Is that just exciting to you?
Is there some trepidation like? Or is it that like
a fuck? I'm like, how do you feel at the
beginning of those things?

Speaker 2 (09:20):
I don't often give it enough thought. So with Harry Potter,
for instance, I was offered by my friend John Tiffany,
who was directing it, and all I sort of thought
was he's going to do a great job. I'll be
all right sort of thing, And I didn't really consider
how much scrutiny I'd be put under, how much scrutiny.
I'm still put under this day doing it, and so

(09:42):
I just sort of served along without real sort of
consideration to it. With Christmas Carol, I didn't really hesitate
because it's been done.

Speaker 3 (09:52):
It's been done a thousand times.

Speaker 2 (09:54):
I mean, you know, there was no sort of like, oh,
he's the guy that's going to take on the Christmas Carol,
Like he's the latest guy to have we go at
Christmas Carol and so. And also I felt no loyalty
to Charles Dickens whatsoever. Whereas I did his start materials
for the TV. With that, I felt ment loyalty to
Philip Porman, because I felt like, this is the medium,

(10:14):
this is the perfect TV is the perfect medium to
tell his star materials in, and so we need to
nail it and we need to tell his book as
faithfully as possible. With Dickens, it was like, you know,
if he doesn't like my one, he can walk five
minutes down the road and he'll find another one or
another one, and then he'll turn the corner and there'll
be another one. And so it was just kind of like,

(10:34):
why are you doing it? Was the question that I
kept asking myself, and what can you do. And actually
I wrote this massive sort of framing device that was
about Charles Dickens talking to his sister and having a
bit of a breakdown and his relationship with her child
who was disabled, and all this other kind of stuff,
and Matthew Watchus, who directed it, read it and went,

(10:59):
the middle bit is good. The framing device is bullshit.
So lose all that stuff and we might have a
decent play. So yeah, but I think the framing device
sort of helped me get somewhere with the inner bit,
and that made the show better.

Speaker 1 (11:12):
Your Christmas Carol, which runs every year currently and I
hope forever at the old VIC, is fucking amazing, and
I've talked about it on this podcast before. But there
are two things that you did in it, two choices
you made that were not in the original, that I
think has genuinely two of the most profound scenes I've
ever seen. I think about a lot, and I think
it's that you, that you look at that you made

(11:34):
me understand that Christmas Carol is the story of therapy
is basically, you look at your past, you look at
your present, you look at your future. You bring these
you make peace with each section to move forward, and
that's what that story is. You added this for those
who haven't seen it. There are two scenes you added.
One is him going back to see himself young. It's

(11:57):
so heartbreaking and I can't even talk about it, but
he says something to having been on this journey. He
says something to his looking at his younger self that
is so heartbreaking. And then you also added a scene
that I'd always wondered about, which is him going to
see bell after In the end, on Christmas Day, he
goes to see his ex and god, God, I don't

(12:19):
know you guys see it if they haven't yet.

Speaker 2 (12:22):
That's very kind. Thank you. Yeah, I mean I didn't.
I would never have raised it being about therapy. But
I love the fact that you that's much better than
I would have articulated it in terms of talking about
it the challenge.

Speaker 1 (12:35):
And I think this is where the.

Speaker 2 (12:36):
Framing device was quite useful, because I think when we write,
we're trying to write a wrong in our own hearts,
and we're trying to set something right about ourselves. And
I often look back at older stuff I've written and go, oh, oh,
you were so alone and weird, and I mean, you know,
and I can see now what you're trying to correct.

(12:57):
There's a right called Dennis Kelly. Do you know Dennis
Kelly an amazing writer, and Matilda and Utopia and lots
of other stuff besides. But I could literally write a
PhD On why Dennis wrote different plays at different points
in his life, because I love him so much as
a writer and I love him so much as a person,
and I could just sort of chart his journey. And

(13:18):
I thought a lot about why Dickens wrote Christmas Carol then,
And I get that it was about his anger the
treatment of the poor, and I get that, but it
was also about him working something out about himself, and
working out something about his relationship with money and success
and how you know, it was written quite early in
his career, and how you deal with all those things,

(13:41):
how you deal with the plenty when you're used to little,
you know, and what kind of persons you want to be?
And I think he, I think he was really wrestling
with that himself. And so those were the things I
was trying to capture in the play, trying to pull
out the play. And the relationship with Belle, I think
is fascinating all through it, and so going back to
it for a tree that well. The first time we

(14:02):
did it was Recivan's playing Scrooge and it was Aaron
Doherty playing Bell.

Speaker 1 (14:06):
That's who I saw it with.

Speaker 2 (14:07):
And I remember going up to Reese after seeing it
for five or six times and just going, what is
going on in that scene between you two?

Speaker 1 (14:15):
And he said, she's just astonishing.

Speaker 2 (14:17):
And Erin really is like one of the actors of
our time, I think, And he said playing opposite her
in that scene is like playing jazz. He said, it's
just the two of us were totally in control of
the theater and we can just riff off each other.
We can go wherever we want to go, and we
go in so many different directions depending on what she
gives me in that moment, what I give her back,

(14:39):
And I.

Speaker 1 (14:39):
Just I love that. God, it's good. You don't have
to answer. What do you, in hindsight think your writing
of Christmas Carol was about in your life?

Speaker 2 (14:50):
I had to write it quite quickly. Matthew just said,
I think something had fallen through. And so he said,
I'm going to do Christmas Carol as the old Christmas Show.
And he told me about July and we were rehearsing
in October, so I didn't have long to get it done.
I had time within that to make a huge mistake
and require them to cut half the play.

Speaker 3 (15:09):
But you know, I didn't have long.

Speaker 2 (15:11):
And it was the year that Harry Potter has opened
that year, and it was the year that my wife
gave birth to our only child. So I think I
was in a mad state of not quite knowing what
end was up, and quite similar to Dickens, going from
a situation where I didn't know quite where the next

(15:34):
job was coming and whether whether I had a career
to suddenly having this show that I knew.

Speaker 1 (15:39):
Was going to stick around for a while.

Speaker 2 (15:40):
In Potter, I knew that, you know that when the
reviews came out, we were in a place where we'd
gone from sort of what is this going to be
to a place of this is going to be all right,
and this is going to do something and stick around
and mean, you know, and and.

Speaker 3 (15:57):
I struggled with that. We all struggled with imposter syndrome.

Speaker 2 (16:00):
I mean, hits all in lots of different ways and
lots of different you know, it does lots of different
things to our heads. And I think that was that
was the height of imposter syndrome for me, that moment
when I suddenly was a dad and I didn't feel
a quick to be a dad and I was a
I'm saying this with quotation marks, but I mean, like,
you know, there was success hanging around me for the
first time in a way that I didn't know quite

(16:21):
how to cope with.

Speaker 1 (16:21):
You know, I do. It's very extreme, even though it's
a positive. Yeah, your world is changing in such a
shocking way that it's still your brain, guys, what that
fuck like? It doesn't know, you know, it's still a.

Speaker 2 (16:36):
Shock again, not wanting to turn it on you, but
I would have really struggled with Ted Lasso writing the
next series and writing a character that I was playing,
because I'm right that when you were first writing Roight,
you weren't playing right, right, That's correct, Yes, And then
suddenly this show explodes, You're winning awards for it, and

(16:57):
then you've got to sit down and work out a
up for a character that you're playing and everyone is loving,
you know what I mean? You know in the world,
I don't know how I'd be able to do that.
I think that must be impossible.

Speaker 1 (17:09):
I think we were very lucky in season two and
that when we write season two, season one wasn't out yet,
so we'd acted it. We'd made season one, so we
knew how it felt, but we didn't know if people
would like it or anything when we were writing season two.

Speaker 2 (17:24):
So I was writing season three.

Speaker 1 (17:28):
Season three was probably more a game of turning the
internet off, like you and the ship ignore everything and
stick to the plan. But yeah, I think it's unrealistic
to say, yeah, it didn't cross anyone's much, like you
know you are. Do you keep a diary or anything
like that? No? Do you have memoir? No? No, I

(17:48):
don't either, And people have asked me about that, and
I'm sort of like, I think, if you agree it's
all in your stuff, that's your diary exactly. Still there.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
Narcissism is dangerous enough in this world of ours, you
know that right down. The one thing I do do
is I keep a diary for my son. So I've
been writing a diary for him since.

Speaker 1 (18:09):
He was born. What do you mean of his day?

Speaker 2 (18:14):
Yeah, not not every day, but just like key events
like you had a playdate with Fisher and it went
really well, and we were really nervous beforehand and these
are the reasons why we were really nervous, and this
is when you wanted to go to sleep, and this
is when, you know, I managed to persuade you to
get to sleep. It's that sort of thing that then
hopefully he'll read back when he's older and go, oh,

(18:35):
that's interesting that I was like this, or.

Speaker 3 (18:38):
You know, this is what my dad thought I was
like at this moment.

Speaker 2 (18:41):
But it's also got things like, you know, what his
first word was, what films he watched when, and which
books and when he started reading the books, and what
things encouraged him? Was the first film he watched? The
first film he watched. Now now I'm struggling to I
think it was beds and broomsticks. I think it was
I had a whole thing. There was a thing in

(19:02):
the paper years ago about Pixar and how perfectly structured
Pixar films are, and how it made it really difficult
for this journalist's kids to watch any other kind of
films because they weren't structured like that. So I tried
quite deliberately to start him on films where they didn't
quite have the narrative structure perfected, you know, like you know,

(19:23):
Brendams and Broomsticks is bonkers the way that it's structured.
So just like keeping that sort of sense of the
possibility of narrative that doesn't quite make sense within him
felt really quite important from day one.

Speaker 1 (19:37):
And so you know he's watched mad, So that's to
keep everything open, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:42):
So that he can decide that he can decide what,
so that he doesn't get, you know, taken into the
Pixar religion, which is a wonderful religion. And I have
no problem with Pixar, but just kind of like keeping
his head exploding rather than narrowing.

Speaker 1 (19:55):
Yeah, fascinating, Okay, can I briefly you haven't isn't how? Yeah,
I don't know what stage are apt? Lord of the
Flies not Load of the Rigs. What made you want
to do that? And how is it going?

Speaker 3 (20:06):
It was my favorite book when I was a kid.

Speaker 2 (20:10):
It was the answer I gave whenever anyone asked me,
what's the one thing you really want to do?

Speaker 1 (20:15):
Oh? Great?

Speaker 2 (20:16):
And I feel so thrilled we've got the possibility of
telling it, and I hope we've done.

Speaker 3 (20:22):
A decent job with it.

Speaker 2 (20:23):
Mark Lundon, who is an amazing director, is directing it
and the rush is he doesn't do assemblies, and it's
really hard to watch rushes and get a sense of
what's happening.

Speaker 3 (20:34):
But the Russiers feel so him.

Speaker 2 (20:36):
I've worked with a huge amount of times Mark and
it feels like he's capturing something of himself in it.
And the actors are all extraordinary there, you know, between
the ages of eleven and thirteen, and they're giving it everything.

Speaker 3 (20:52):
And they've been living in Malaysia for six.

Speaker 2 (20:55):
Months and their parents have sacrificed a huge amount for
them to be there, and what they're doing is amazing.

Speaker 3 (21:01):
So I hope, I hope what we've got is brilliant.

Speaker 2 (21:04):
I don't know, but we're at the point now where
I'm going to start seeing things put together, and that is.

Speaker 1 (21:12):
Yeah. Since I found out you were dinner, I have
thought a lot about Lord of the Flies and how
it feels like it is the story of all things,
like as in this cycle of people descending into horribleness
horrible behavior, until a point happens where it's like, oh,
like the end of the book is sort of Jesus,

(21:33):
what if we don't That seems to me the last
image of the book is a sort of awakening of
Oh God and a return of humanity of love. And
I was thinking even about like, I don't know if
this is I hope this is a sort of okay
thing to say. I was thinking about, like even Amy Winehouse,
for example, this sort of cycle of someone famous is

(21:56):
kind of bullied, abused by the media by people like
taken to a place of their jokes about their their
their followed, their harried, and then they die and then
everyone those same people go, oh God, what have we done?
Like that cycle? And in politics, in everything, in war,

(22:17):
it seems like that's the story. People go, they get
carried away, carried away, darker, darker, darker, darker, and then
someone arrives on the beach and they go, what have
we done? I mean Princess Diana.

Speaker 2 (22:27):
Famously, they had the editions of the paper that went
out that day that had abusive articles written about her
that they then had to pull back for later traditions
because she because hating her was such a productive industry
was making newspapers money. And then suddenly what made newspapers
money was celebrating her wonderful life.

Speaker 1 (22:48):
It's amazing.

Speaker 2 (22:49):
It's a book written with surprising tenderness too. That My
memory from reading it as a kid was there were
good guys and they were bad guys. And then you
read it as an adult and you realize that his
compassion towards Jack, you know that the supposed leader of
the bad guys is that it's so there in the text,
it's so there, and you just have to sort of

(23:11):
pull that thread out. But yeah, it's extraordinary and he's
an extraordinary writer, I think, and he captured something about
us that made sense to me. And some people dismissed
that book as saying, it's about public school kids, or
it's about this, or it's about that I didn't get
to a public school.

Speaker 3 (23:28):
I felt like when I read it, I felt like
my skin was being pulled off, you know.

Speaker 2 (23:32):
And I think everyone has the person that they're like,
and everyone has the person that they're frightened their like
in the book, and you know that that's sort of
just getting inside the guts of that.

Speaker 1 (23:45):
It's just being delicious. God, you're good at this. I
don't ask who you like, who do you worry you like?
I worry I'm like Jack.

Speaker 2 (23:54):
There's certain times when I was a kid that was
on the outside that you know, not especially bullied, but
bullied a little bit and bullied by my friends, if
you know what I mean, that kind of kid, rather
than being bullied by loads of kids that don't care
about you. I was bullied by kids that cared about
me or profess to care about me. But I was

(24:14):
had a nasty side at a nasty side that I
didn't quite know how to deal with. I think I'm
more like Simon, but I don't know, you know, like
you know, I think that probably the kid I was
like was Simon, and that's the kid I see in
my boy, But I don't know do you Do you.

Speaker 3 (24:31):
Remember it well enough to know who you think you
were like?

Speaker 1 (24:34):
Or not? Really? No, I remember the big the big events.
I don't remember the end and think about the end
a lot, but no, I couldn't name them, or I'm
afraid I'm going to I'm going to watch your show
and then be.

Speaker 3 (24:45):
Like, not knowing you well.

Speaker 2 (24:47):
But I wonder how much you'd find of yourself in Ralph,
the central character, that the person that the book revolves around,
and who is morally complex, who's not pure as as
he's made out in tents of it, but he's a
natural leader, is someone that naturally takes people with him
and then has to struggle with taking people with him.

Speaker 1 (25:05):
He's not the one that kills Piggy. No no, no, no, no, no,
Piggy's best friend. Okay, good Jack. I could talk to
you about all this stuff forever. But weirdly, I've forgotten
to tell you something. I know because I did make
a list of things talked about. It was on the list.

(25:26):
It was actually at the top of the list, as
it should have been, and it's weird that I skipped it.
I think I got excited about process, Christmas, Carol and stuff. Anyway,
I just say, you've died. You're dead. Oh no, yeah,
I know, fucking hell. I feel like you add at
least another hundred things in you, but you're dead. You know,

(25:47):
you know, it's weird.

Speaker 2 (25:48):
I obviously knew that was coming, but it is weird
having someone say that to you.

Speaker 1 (25:52):
You didn't just kind of go, you know, you feel
kind of like, oh, oh yeah, I'm so sorry. This
is tragic. How did he die?

Speaker 3 (26:02):
Well, my granddad, Derek died in front of Countdown.

Speaker 2 (26:06):
He was a post office master, loved numbers, loved letters,
and he died watching that. And that's how I hope
I'll go. I hope I'm watching the television whatever whatever
of television still exists by that point, and I just
kind of slip off doing what I love.

Speaker 1 (26:22):
I hate to dig into this, but something has to
have happened while you're watching countdown.

Speaker 2 (26:28):
Oh he just had a heart attack, I think, but
just not a really hard one.

Speaker 1 (26:33):
But this is for your your choice. I want to
go the way Derek died. You weren't exact.

Speaker 2 (26:39):
I just want to have something happen that's just kind
of sudden and quick and I'm just trying to work
out whether I can get a six letter word out
or not, and then I'm just dead.

Speaker 1 (26:48):
Okay, So it's that's what I wanted to know. It
was mere answer. I think so. I think so. I think.

Speaker 2 (26:53):
I think the clock was still ticking as he was
as he was working through.

Speaker 1 (26:57):
It, and you know, did it boo on the floor exactly?

Speaker 2 (27:02):
Okay, Well, I don't think you even fall on the floor.

Speaker 1 (27:04):
I don't.

Speaker 3 (27:05):
I don't want a dramatic Death's my point. I want.

Speaker 2 (27:08):
I know lots of people to playing crashes and stuff
like that. I don't really want to do any of that.
I just want to be on my sofa and just
go slip off into the abyss.

Speaker 1 (27:17):
Love it? Okay. Do you worry about death?

Speaker 2 (27:19):
No, not at all. I don't consider it. It's the
same as that my Harry Potter answer. I don't really
consider the consequence of anything I'm until I'm at that point,
and then I have so much fear it's unbelievable. But
hopefully I don't have time to contemplate it.

Speaker 1 (27:32):
I just I just go great, do you what do
you think happens when you die? I don't know.

Speaker 2 (27:37):
I think I'm probably just worm me, but I like
the possibility of something else. And I have a strange
relationship with faith where I really admire faith, and so
I would sort of be sad for people that I
know who are faithful that there's nothing that I want
their beliefs to be true. So I sort of I

(27:59):
don't know, and I don't want to decide because I
don't want them to be wrong.

Speaker 1 (28:04):
That seems to me the true representation of a loving religion,
that you want faith to be true so that the
people that believe are looked after, and for that reason
you're going to heaven. Oh, thank you very much, and
congratulations there is a heaven. You're in it, and your
favorite thing? What's your favorite what's my favorite thing? TV? Yeah,

(28:27):
just a big telly yeah, great TV again, what you're
excited to hear? You're going to heavin.

Speaker 2 (28:33):
Honestly, yeah, it's just like you know, you're just saying it,
and I'm just like, oh right, yeah, no, great, I
trust you.

Speaker 1 (28:39):
I trust you, Yeah, I got you. Heaven is filled
with TVs everywhere, everywhere you look, sort of intimidating's like
installation TV's everywhere, but they become one big scream when
you want to watch anything you want to watch. Everyone's
very excited to see you, huge fans. They won't talk
to you about your life, but they want to talk
about it through film. And the first thing they ask
you is, what is the first film you remember seeing,

(29:01):
missus Jack Thorpe.

Speaker 3 (29:02):
It's four fifths of the Jungle Book.

Speaker 2 (29:05):
Oh what a banger, because there's a point at the
four fifths mark when Blue seems to be dead, and
at that moment, I was so emotional. I hid under
my seat and I didn't watch the rest of the film.
I got so upset that Blue. I was a very
very emotional child, and I would cry quite a lot.

Speaker 3 (29:26):
I mean, I didn't make it through.

Speaker 2 (29:28):
We went to see Toad of Toad Hall at the
Bristol Hippodrome and I didn't make it through that either,
because when Toad crashed the car, I was so upset
for Toad that I.

Speaker 3 (29:36):
Had to be taken out of the Bristol Hippodrome.

Speaker 2 (29:38):
I think I stayed in the cinema for the remainder
of the Jungle Book, but I didn't watch it.

Speaker 1 (29:43):
So this is why you're a writer, because you're an
mpath or a free think it's possible. So the tragedy
of you, so you don't know that Ballue didn't die.

Speaker 2 (29:56):
I didn't at that moment. At that moment, I believe
the Blue was dead. The film was presenting Blue as
dead and drifting down the river, and I just thought,
that's the worst thing I can possibly imagine happening to
the person who had come through the film, my best friend.

Speaker 1 (30:13):
I mean, this is why, this is another reason why,
this is why Mobick Christmas Carol Takes has to take
the top spot, because, aside from everything that it does,
it has at the end of the line and tiny
Tim who did not die.

Speaker 3 (30:29):
Yes, yes, yes, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (30:31):
Anyway, Blue is fine. The point is blue is fine.
Blue is fine. What's the film that scared you the most?
And do you like being scared?

Speaker 3 (30:40):
I do like being scared, and I do watch horror films.

Speaker 2 (30:43):
The film that scared me the most, there's two films
I have on this list. The first is Stay Shoot Horses,
Don't They? Which I still think about that scene when
they're dancing and eating at the same time.

Speaker 1 (30:55):
And I haven't seen this film. You haven't seen They Shootorters,
Don't They? Oh?

Speaker 2 (30:58):
You have to, you'll love it. But it's brutal, and
it's about the depression. That it's about couples basically in
a stamina race to see who can stay dancing the longest,
and they're set challenges drawing it. And you're watching these
couples as they try and survive and as they get
to know each other, and that as you understand their desperation,

(31:18):
and it's horrific and it's you know, it's one of
my favorite films of all time, but it's terrifying.

Speaker 1 (31:25):
I always thought that film was a spin off of
all creases, great and small. That's why I've never seen.

Speaker 2 (31:32):
It, right, Okay, well, yeah, there is the point when
Seafree turns up and shoots a horse in the middle
of it and then it just lies on the floor.

Speaker 3 (31:41):
No, they watch it, you'll love it.

Speaker 2 (31:43):
And then the other film that scares me, but for
very different reasons is Sideways, because I massively over empathize
with that and there's a scene in it where he
goes on a date with her. You know, it's the
it's the four of them go on a date together
and he can't look at her. And at that point

(32:04):
when I watched that film, I was living on my
own in Luton. I wasn't really seeing anyone socially, and
I didn't have any relationships to speak of, and I
just went, oh, that's me, that's my future, that's who
I'm going to be, and he's so unhappy. I just

(32:25):
that film is terrifying to me for that reason, whilst
also being very very beautiful.

Speaker 1 (32:29):
Hmmm, great beautiful love Sideways. What is the film that
made you cry the most? Do you like crying?

Speaker 2 (32:38):
I do like crying, And I've got two answers for
this too. I know that it's eating to constantly have
two answers for everything.

Speaker 1 (32:44):
Very special guests, you can have two.

Speaker 3 (32:46):
One is The Sun's Room Nanni Moretti's film The Sun's Room.

Speaker 2 (32:49):
Fuck Yeah, which is just the best portrait of grief
ever written, I think, and just acutely gets inside a
family when they're trying to deal with what they've lost
and they can't deal with it. And the other one
is an episode of TV, which I know is cheating slightly,
but I think it feels like a film when you

(33:10):
watch it, which is Series one, episode thirteen of the
hour of an episode called loves Labour's Last.

Speaker 1 (33:16):
You've fucking You've snuck under the radar by and you
can have it? Fuck yes? Do you remember that episode?

Speaker 2 (33:23):
Do you remember that episode Bradley with the guest starring,
And it's just all about Dr Green trying to save.

Speaker 1 (33:30):
A woman that's.

Speaker 2 (33:32):
Giving birth, and you just see him do extraordinary things
and he's extraordinarily heroic, and it just ends with him
on the train and his head against the glass. And
I don't think I've ever cried more than watching that
moment and just understanding what he's been through that day
and how heroic he's been, and how he sort of

(33:52):
knows he did everything he possibly could when he failed
and he cost lives and maybe the lives wouldn't have
been lost if it had been another doctor, and just
seeing him within that is just awful. So yes, both
those and both they're both quite desolate. They're not you know,
you know, there's there's nothing charming in either of them

(34:14):
in lots of ways.

Speaker 1 (34:15):
I mean, The Sun's Room is a very very.

Speaker 2 (34:18):
Charming film, but but there's a sort of in a
chasm that that won't be filled, and you know it
won't be filled. And I just love both those things.
And if I wanted to cry, I could put them
on and I would cry.

Speaker 1 (34:31):
What's interesting is your stuff? And like I said, I
haven't seen all of your stuff, but I've seen an
awful lot of your stuff. I think even the stuff
I've seen of yours, that it's very heavy, still has
great love, and I would say hope in them. I
wouldn't say your stuff has the chasm of despair in them, which.

Speaker 2 (34:53):
I sort of see see that as a failure now
that I've got to correct. And actually I like, actually
there's something on TV next year where I think there
is a real cats of despair in the middle of there.
It's a show called show called Adolescence, and Stephen Graham
is playing the person with that hole in the middle

(35:13):
of him, and Stephen is just I mean, he just
does something ridiculously special in it.

Speaker 1 (35:19):
He's very good at chasms of despair.

Speaker 3 (35:22):
He is very good at chasms of despair.

Speaker 2 (35:24):
He walks down a very thin bridge of hope, Steve,
and and he's incredibly hopeful, and he's full of love
and joy and I you know, I get upbeat text
messages from him most days. But at the same time,
he can access something that's really that's that's really.

Speaker 1 (35:42):
Damaged Yah, which is one of the TV shows that's
every single episode of I think when you talk about TV,
I know I always go on about film, But what
TV does have the film doesn't is time and having
been someone that grew up watching her and watched all
of him. The death of Mark Green, that's probably the
most I've anyone in my own life because it was

(36:04):
eight years of my life with this man. It was
the most devastating, like we'd spent I'd spent six months
of a year for eight years with this person.

Speaker 3 (36:13):
Do you remember the line you set the tone? Of
course I do so past to Mark Green in I
think the opening episode of the show or certainly in
the first season of the show. Then he passes it
to Carter just before he then goes off and you know,
and he's playing and it's basketball, and he just hits
the ball over to Carter and says, you set the tone, Carter,

(36:34):
and it's just.

Speaker 1 (36:35):
Like, oh my god.

Speaker 2 (36:37):
You know, like you know, I don't know that that's
up there with one of the best lines in TV history,
I think, with the way that they reused it and
they and they made it work for.

Speaker 1 (36:46):
Both fucking brilliant that show. Yeah, I mean, I think
there's an episode of the Ore that I think is
fucking made one off John Wells, which is the one
where Carter and his lady have have a stillboy. Yeah.
Do you remember that episode? Yeah? I do. Yeah, my god. Anyway,

(37:10):
we love over here. Okay, And you know they're making
another show, aren't they.

Speaker 2 (37:13):
They're making another show that's sort of yeah, yeah, I'm
really excited.

Speaker 1 (37:17):
For that me too. What is the film that you love?
People don't like it, at least the critics don't, but
you love it unconditionally always.

Speaker 2 (37:27):
So we were we were on a holiday last year
where we were going around. It was one of these
things where you're you bring your kids. It's called country Kids,
and you bring your kids and the kids all play together,
and then the adults are about to get to know
each other a bit as you're all nightmaris. Well, in
lots of ways it sounds night raish, but actually kind
of kind of exciting and interesting, lovely.

Speaker 1 (37:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (37:48):
Well, the people that we were read last year were
pretty amazing.

Speaker 2 (37:51):
And we're doing that thing of just sitting around in
a circle and making conversation. And someone asked the question
when we're you happiest, and I was sat by my
wife and it was a holiday with my kid, And
the honest answer was the fourth of July nineteen ninety eight,
which is when me and my little sister I was eighteen, no,
I was twenty, and me and my little sister went

(38:12):
to the Coca Cola Museum in Las Vegas is it,
I don't know whether it's a museum or factory or
whatever they call it, and we drank about nine liters
of Coca cola because it had different at the end
of it, you just could drink as much as you like,
and they had about forty different flavors that you could
just sample all of them, so We drank about nine
liters of it, and then we went to watch armagedin

(38:33):
a in a cinema on the fourth of July, and
at the end of it, the audience gave it a
standing ovation. They were so happy that this film. And
to this day I can watch that film and just
feel the joy of that moment of just being so
high on coca cola and.

Speaker 1 (38:50):
Just going, yeah, yeah, well it's to save the world.

Speaker 2 (38:55):
And so yes, that's the film I love unreservedly, and
I think doubts about it. So I think it answers
your question.

Speaker 1 (39:02):
That is a perfect answer, really lovely answer. Great movie,
No complaints from me. On the other hand, a film
that you used to love but you've noticed it recently
and you've thought, I don't like this anymore. But it
might be the film is still good. It's just you've
changed so with a political hat on. Okay, And it's
not a bad film. But rain Man. I loved Rayman

(39:24):
as a kid.

Speaker 2 (39:25):
I once interviewed Barry Norman for a student newspaper.

Speaker 1 (39:29):
How was he?

Speaker 2 (39:30):
He was lovely, Spikier than you'd have expected, but lovely,
And I asked him about something I remembered on film
whatever it was film eighty eight, I guess it was,
which is when he was talking about Rayman to Tom Cruise.
He was interviewing Tom Cruise, and he said to Tom Cruise,
you should have won the Oscar for that film. And
I do think Tom Cruise's performance in that film is perfect,

(39:54):
absolutely perfect. But as someone who is autistic and who
worked a lot in the disabled world and who campaigns
for changes to the way that television treats disabled people,
we're part of this. We run this campaign called the
TV Access Project, which is trying to change the way
that sets work. Basically, I think that Rayman has caused

(40:17):
so many problems in terms of what autism.

Speaker 1 (40:21):
Is, what people think it is.

Speaker 2 (40:22):
Exactly, and I don't think it's helpful. And I think,
you know, at the moment, everyone's going, ah, everyone's autistic,
you know what I mean, you know, like, you know,
everyone's everyone's done that test, everyone's got different conditions, and
everyone's ner a diverse and all this other kind of stuff,
and you kind of go, it's possible that there's more
people that you're a diverse than the world expected, and
that every neurodiversity doesn't have to know how to count matches.

Speaker 1 (40:46):
I mean, like you know, like.

Speaker 2 (40:47):
You know, and maybe the welcomere kind of place that
accepts all these different things. And maybe if you extended
your prism of as to what label something actually is,
that we can get places. Because I don't think anyone's
asking for a certain type of treatment by saying they
have autism. They're just trying to understand themselves a bit

(41:09):
better and understand their brain chemistry a bit better. And
so so Raymon.

Speaker 1 (41:13):
Can I that's a really good answer, It makes sense.
Can I ask the thing that you're working forward to
trying to change how sets work? Can I ask what
you would like to change? How would it? It's two things.
It started so during COVID. If you remember, deaths were
divided into right, there was death that people cared about,
and then there were deaths with underlying health conditions, and
people went the death with unlying health conditions. Those statistics

(41:35):
and you know, even the guardian was doing this. You know,
these statistics don't really matter. The ones that matter are
the healthy people. Disabled people don't count. And there were.

Speaker 2 (41:44):
Friends of mine that were told that not only would
they not get access to machines if they went in
togitle they should not get access to machines. There was
a whole thing of just kind of like disabled people
deserve to die, and it really felt like disabled people
deserve to die, and drawing time, my group of friends
just said, Okay, what do we do? How do we
challenge this a little bit? And Katie Player, who's a

(42:07):
production manager on a few of my shows and is
a good friend, said that disability doesn't work the same
way that ethnicity works. You can't just solve it with
quotas or with good meaning. You've actually got to change
the way that sets work. And that means toilets. That
means so the example a lot of my friends gave

(42:30):
was of on sets the honeywagons being completely inaccessible, which
meant that they'd have a choice either decide that they
I'm going to eat and a drink during the day
because the nearest accessible toilet is Tescos and it's fifteen
minutes drive away, or crawl across the floor of a honeywagon.
And you've been on sets, you know how dirty those
honey wagons get. And so I've got friends that had

(42:53):
to crawl through that stuff in order to be able
to use the toilet because there were no accessible honeywagons,
they just didn't exist. So it's things like that. It's
also about looking at practices, it's about when you ask questions.
It's about having an accessibility coordinator on set, which works
quite similar to an intimacy coordinator, but would allow people

(43:14):
to talk about disability that maybe they haven't declared before.
So cool sheets, making cool sheets more readable by putting
them in a different sized font makes a huge difference
to boom operators, people that hadn't ever declared that they
have problems with their side before, but who always had
to rely on asking their friends. But these different things

(43:37):
all add up to inaccessible working conditions, you know. And
there's other things like curbs and all sorts of things
that we're trying to change. But it's a long term campaign.
It's been going on for three and a half years now.
Thankfully we've got buy in from TV people at the top,
so Charlotte Moore in Cats people like that have really

(43:58):
leaned in and are really helping us.

Speaker 3 (44:00):
We are making huge progress.

Speaker 2 (44:01):
There are a number of disabled honeywagons, for instance, now
that didn't used to exist before. So it's happening. It's slow,
but it's happening, and there's about three hundred people now
working as part of it in different focus groups, working
on different things that can change the way that we work.

Speaker 1 (44:16):
Brilliant. Thank you. No, yeah, no, it's a it's a
really special thing to be part of. Yeah, thank you
for sharing it. What is the film that means the
most to you? Not necessarily the film itself is good,
but the experience you had seeing that film makes it
important to you alive.

Speaker 2 (44:34):
Oh, it's a I can tell you the exact time
that I first watched it, which is we take to
off film for I think, and then me and my
little sister. Is it just the two of you in
your head? No, there's an older brother and sister, but
they moved out. They're born three forty years older than me,
so they moved out quite a while before the two
of us, and so we grew up a lot of

(44:55):
my teenage yeers was just being Liz, you've got a sister, right, yes, yeah,
so it's a special relationship.

Speaker 1 (45:02):
I think love a sister. Yeah. Yeah, And we.

Speaker 2 (45:05):
Watched it all the way through and then we said
we really loved that. We just watched it again, so
we rewound the tape and we watched it again all
the way through, and Liz says, it's the first time
she thought we liked each other, like you know, that
difficult period we got that difficult period of and by

(45:25):
the way, this is from Liz, this isn't from me,
but but you know, like you know, and and we've
gone through all that difficult teenage years together and then
suddenly we just found ourselves sympatico. And when I got
married rach and I, the present we asked for was
everyone to give us their favorite book, but write something
in the beginning of it. So we've got all these books,

(45:45):
you know, they've just written nice little notes into us,
and it's really nice. And Liz was my best man
and Liz got me alive, and it just says at
the front of it, of course, you know, other than that,
so that that's my And it's also a lovely film.

Speaker 1 (46:04):
It's a great film.

Speaker 2 (46:05):
I asked Kathleen Kennedy about it, and she just the
relationship they had with the survivors was extraordinary. They had
a really special thing, the three of them, but you know,
the two of them working together on it, and I
think and I think it means a huge amount to her.
But you know a guy that left his mark on films,
that's still leaving his mark on films, and he hasn't

(46:26):
directed much certainly, And it's interesting that Alive was the
one where he went. I'm going to get Hollywood money
to tell this story. I'm going to get Ethan Hawk
to be in it. But otherwise I'm going to cast
people that you don't know necessarily.

Speaker 1 (46:38):
I haven't seen the new one. I have I have
I have.

Speaker 2 (46:44):
It's darker, it's not quite got that uplifting feel at
the end. The end is still they survived and they
got out of there and they did a remarkable thing.
But it doesn't quite have that same sort of Hollywood energy,
which might make it a better film.

Speaker 3 (46:58):
I don't know. I can't divorce my experience.

Speaker 2 (47:02):
Of watching a live from watching that film, you know,
like you know, I can't quite let go of a live,
So I don't it was very interesting.

Speaker 1 (47:07):
You and Liz probably wouldn't immediately rewatch that way.

Speaker 2 (47:10):
No, no, no, what's the film that you most relate to.
I've got two again, but they're connected, which is Minari
and Whiplash.

Speaker 1 (47:20):
Oh fuck, Oh, I go it. Tell me I get it,
and I know and I want you to explain it.

Speaker 2 (47:26):
So it's people that have troubling relationships with their wack
and who can't quite divorce their self worth from their
work life, and who don't know where the line of
the line of self preservation is, and who will do
damage to themselves and to others in pursuit of their goals.

Speaker 3 (47:48):
And I relate to that hugely.

Speaker 2 (47:50):
And it's the side of me that I worry about
the most, and I think about a lot.

Speaker 3 (47:56):
I remember watching Whiplash for the first time so vividly.

Speaker 2 (48:00):
It was on a screener because I was having a
meeting with Damien to talk about a project.

Speaker 3 (48:06):
And this was before Damien was Dall. It was the Eddy,
the project you.

Speaker 2 (48:10):
Mentioned at the beginning, yes, that we did together, and
they just said, you should watch this film is really
interesting filmmaker. But it was before Whiplash was Whiplash, And
so I watched it in my hotel room, just me,
and just sat on the edge of my bed and
just felt awful and so profoundly moved and so scared

(48:32):
and so worried. And I can watch that film over
and over and over again as I can. Min Ari
and They're two almost perfect films, if not perfect, and
they just express a feeling so perfectly.

Speaker 1 (48:48):
You know, maybe the thing in Whiplash is the fear
you have that you're like Jack in Lord of the
Flies in that the thing I think is really sing
Whiplash because all the work stuff and all the all
the kind of ambition and drive and work and ethic,
all of that makes sense. But he's actually not a

(49:09):
nice character. I think in Minari it's a much more
sympathetic character. You know, he is driven and all the things,
but in Whiplash he isn't a very nice guy. He's
horrible to his girlfriend, like it isn't really like he's
pushing aside his nice side to do this thing. Like
he's kind of singularly driven and sort of not very

(49:32):
There's not a lot of love in him outside of that,
which I think is brave and unusual in a story
like that. You know what I mean. Have you met Damien.
I'm never and I'm a big fan and I'm team Babylon.
I think Babylon is.

Speaker 2 (49:47):
Yeah, yeah, he is not an alpha person. You know,
like most directors you meet, they impose themselves on you
that there's a way in which you can feel their
personality just kind of reaching out, pulling you to them,
and just there's just the silent power that they've got
and Damien doesn't have that.

Speaker 1 (50:06):
Interesting.

Speaker 2 (50:07):
He's incredible and you can feel how incredible he is,
and you can feel his intelligence straight away, but he
doesn't quite have that sort of Miles Teller aspect to
him that you don't feel that coming off you. So
it's so interesting that clearly he can see that in
himself and that he expresses that in that film in
that way.

Speaker 1 (50:26):
Yeah, it's like he's expressed his his his fear that
you have. He's expressed his dark version of this in
a way that is different in La La Land and
all his other films I see.

Speaker 3 (50:36):
Yeah, Wow, he's a beautiful He's a beautiful man.

Speaker 1 (50:39):
By the way. Do you like him? I really like
his Neil Armstrong film. It's amazing, beautiful, wildly underrated as well.
I think that's brilliant.

Speaker 3 (50:48):
But he's got he's having one of those careers that
people will look back on in year's time and go,
oh my god, look what he knitted together.

Speaker 1 (50:55):
You know, what is the sexiest film we've ever seen?
Jack Thaw and it's why here. Well, I'm going to
give you remains of the day. Come on, grow up.
What's the sexy film that you remember that moment?

Speaker 2 (51:10):
It remains the day when when she comes in on
him in the study and he's reading a book and
then this close and they're almost about to you know,
there's a possible you know, like you know, and she's saying,
you know, are you reading a racy book?

Speaker 1 (51:27):
Am I gonna? Am?

Speaker 2 (51:28):
I going to get upset by what you're reading? And
he's like, would the lordship have a racy book in
his house? You know, like you know, he's sort of
protecting his lordship behind him. And she's like, why no, God,
and tell me. And she really pushes that me and
she really pushed it. And she's touching him in a
way that they've never really touched before. She's trying to
get it and then and then she gets it off
and she goes on it's just a sentimental old love

(51:49):
story and just like that, there is a sexual power
in that scene. That's what I think. That's as good
as good as you're going to get.

Speaker 1 (52:00):
Well, let's see what you have for the next question. Yeah,
the next question. They traveling bone is worrying. Why donce
a filmy found arousing that you weren't sure you should.
If your answer to the first question was remains of
the day, I imagine it'll be fucking the mask or something.

Speaker 2 (52:19):
It's the Goonies, the moment when Andy kisses Mikey. Do
you remember that that they're in the dark and she
m and then she kisses him and there's this sort
of prison between the two of them that neither can
quite understand. You know, I've got a thing for older women,
and that was born I think in the Goonies.

Speaker 3 (52:37):
Is that Is that a good enough answer to that question?

Speaker 1 (52:42):
I mean, listen, you're very very clear, you've you've played
a blinder. But this is nearly as bad as when
Mark Harmer said celluloid, celluloid. Come on, what objectively, objectively

(53:08):
is the greatest film of all time? Might not be
your favorite, but it is the pinnacle of cinema.

Speaker 2 (53:13):
So I have begod tutted on my wrist. My son
is called Elliott. I think et is the greatest film
of all time. And I'm sure that's a very boring answer.
I'm sure, but it's perfect. You know, It's just there's
not It's the best film about loneliness ever made. It's
the best film about divorce ever made. It's the best
film about aliens ever made. And when I was a kid,

(53:36):
knowing that there was a possibility, when I was so lonely,
knowing that there was a possibility that there was an
alien out there that might belong in my heart and
I might belong in that alien's heart, really did save me.
And I think I've my whole love for storytelling comes
from that film.

Speaker 1 (53:55):
When you were telling the story, you were in Luton,
you were alone, you had no relationships, you were close
to a chasm of despair. Do you feel like now
you're you're married, you have a child, you're you go
on country country camps? Like do you feel are you happy?
You do you have like gratitude of like wow, look how.

Speaker 2 (54:16):
Huge huge grastitude and huge grastitude for everyone around me,
and huge gratitude that I get to do what I
love and I still cauon't believe it.

Speaker 1 (54:24):
But do you feel like, oh, I did it? Do
do you see how far you've come and be like
this is great?

Speaker 2 (54:31):
Or are you like no, I think is going to
be taken away and I need to be ready for
that moment when it's taken away. And I think, I
wake up every morning in a cold panic, and that's
what keeps me in my office, and that's what makes
me right for nine hours a day, you know, Like
you know, I just need to propel forward.

Speaker 3 (54:49):
And I don't know about you.

Speaker 2 (54:52):
I think my central I heard James Graham, who I love,
talk about how excited it gets before a first previous
and going for a drink and feeling really excited that
this is going to be the moment when audiences come
in and see the play for the first time, and
how beautiful that is. And I feel humiliated when people
come in. I feel like, not that humiliation is going

(55:15):
to come. I literally feel humiliated that they've come in
the first place. And then the humiliation only grows through
the evening, you know, and then you get reviews, and
then you find the review that tells you that you
should be humiliated, and that's the thing you hold on to.
And I haven't got out of that mind space at all.
I love my wife very much, I love my child

(55:36):
very much. I love my career very much, but that
feeling of humiliation doesn't leave me. Preach and That's why
whiplashes a damaging film, because that's how he feels. That's
how he feels. He has a relationship with humiliation that's
really troubling, that allows him to behave in the way
that he behaves.

Speaker 1 (55:55):
I'd love to pretend I don't relate. So what is
is the film? How many times to be watched?

Speaker 2 (56:03):
It's Christmas Carol, just going, Oh, I'm saved by I'm
saved by films.

Speaker 1 (56:07):
I'm saved by films.

Speaker 2 (56:08):
Oh no, the cold, the cold silence that comes at
the end is still there.

Speaker 1 (56:14):
What is the film you could or have watched the
most over and over again.

Speaker 2 (56:18):
I mean, honestly, it's et in lots of ways. But
I also think I've got to be in the right
mindset for e t If there is a film when
I'm flicking, if there's a film that I will stay
watching till the end, and have stayed watching till the
end huge amount of times.

Speaker 3 (56:33):
It's the sting. I love the sting.

Speaker 2 (56:36):
I think it's it's so well, it's so well constructed.
It's such a beautiful character portrait, and it's so it's
such a swimming ride when you're sort of it's like
It's my favorite film to show other people too, because
the twists and turns, genuinely twists and turns.

Speaker 3 (56:53):
You do not see it coming unless you're very very clever,
and I'm not.

Speaker 2 (56:57):
You know, you just kind of get taken on this
huge rush and then you're like, what are they doing?

Speaker 1 (57:01):
How are they doing this?

Speaker 3 (57:02):
And what does this mean? And it's just brilliant.

Speaker 1 (57:05):
Right right, answer, What is the worst film I've ever seen?
You don't have to be we don't have to be
negative for long.

Speaker 2 (57:12):
I watched a film called Bogus, which is Gerard Deputy
and Willby Goldberg and it's Norman Jewison directed it, so
three real huge talents and it's a film about Yeah,
it's a film. Well, you know how people talk about
how Marvel has destroyed cinema and all this kind of stuff.
That my recollection from the nineties is that there were

(57:34):
lots of good films, but there are also lots of
films that trotted out the same formula over and over again.
And the formula of the woman that needs a child
in order to be fulfilled is a really really troubling
genre and this film is the worst example of that.
You know, just the workaholic that gets given a kid,
and the kid has an imaginary friend called Jared Deputy

(57:55):
and then not called Jared.

Speaker 1 (57:56):
I don't know what his name is.

Speaker 2 (57:58):
And then they and then they sort of bonds through it,
and then they and she then has a relationship with
the imaginary friend too, and it's just awful and how
we treated Woopy Goldberg and Whoopy Goldbo's career should be
an object of shame for the entire industry. You know,
one of the most talmented, natural, charismatic people that ever

(58:20):
was on film. And if you look at the film
she made, and I think it was because of the
lack of choice. People couldn't see what she could be
other than Zany, and so they just kept giving her
Zany film after Zaney film after Zaney film. And it's
just a disgrace. And that film is the worst of it.
And Norman Jewison is a great director who made great films,

(58:43):
but she is extraordinary, and she wasn't given the career
that she should have. And now she's on the talk show,
which I know is great, but she's brilliant.

Speaker 1 (58:51):
She's brilliant.

Speaker 2 (58:52):
She's brilliant, and she should still be making lots and
lots of films, and she can do drama, she can
do comedy, she can do anything.

Speaker 1 (59:00):
Tell me this what Yeah, you've you've written comedy. You're
very funny. What's the film that made you laugh the most?

Speaker 2 (59:06):
I'm going to give a body a boring answer. I
love Richard Curtis. Four Weddings and the Funeral. I think
fucking great. Four Weddings in the Funeral. It's a great film,
and he is. I watched Four Weddings in the Funeral
when I was in my dark base. I watched every
Valentine's Day. Oh my gosh, there's an act of self flatulation.

(59:29):
But also because I love it. It's so well written.
Every line is a delight, you know that. You know
the thing they say about the Cohens that the Cohens
never let any character be too small, that they just
will make every character sort of zing. And I think
with Richard Curtis, he doesn't let a line go. He
just sits there staring at the script again and again
and again until he crafts the hell out of each line.

(59:51):
And there's a craftsman. I don't think there's anyone who
writes to star a little better than him.

Speaker 1 (59:55):
Yeah, that film is perfect. It's so funny and great
and structurally brilliant.

Speaker 2 (01:00:01):
Yeah, well, it's quite similar to It's quite similar to
Christmas Carol, you know in the it's you know, four
Wedding to the Funeral is very similar to Three Ghosts
and the Awakening, you know what I mean, Like, you know,
it seems quite as similar, sort of like you know,
I'm going to take a structure and I'm just gonna
I'm just going to exploit it and use those stating
posts to create my story around it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:19):
Did you ever see a bit of a do a
bit of a do? I know the title was. I
remember it from when I was a kid, and I
think it And this isn't to say he stole it
from it. I don't really mean that. But it was
a TV show by David Knobs, I think, and it
had had like David Jason in it, and every episode
was an event. It was the same character as one
time past. It was like a wedding, it was a
Christmas party, it was whatever. It was fucking brilliant. But

(01:00:42):
I was like sick. I must have been very very younger.
I still anyway. Great structurally a great idea, Yeah, great,
Jack thought you have been beyond wonderful. Thank you for
answering all my questions, Thank you for being so thoughtful
and sensitive. And why is it I think I've learned
things here? However, when you're watching countdown, have a lovely time.

(01:01:04):
You're watching countdown and it was five five continents, three vals,
and and you were like, I think I could get
all of it. I think I could get eight. Here
you're thinking about it. I think I could. I think
do do do do? Do? Do? Do? Do do? Anyway?
What's that? What's that? Anyway? What's that? And your chest
felt do do do? Do do? And then you grabbed

(01:01:26):
your chest and you be like, I think it's I've
got seven? Six? Dog got eight? And then your heart
explained and you fell to the floor. I'm walking past
with a coffin. You know what I'm like, And I
see your see your lady and your son. I goes
jack in. I had to cut the questions for him.
They go, yeah, he's just watching candown. He doesn't like
to be interrupted. When he watched his cat down, I said, really,

(01:01:48):
he doesn't watch it with you and he says, they said, no,
he locks the door when he's watching. We're absolutely forbidden
from being in there. It's quite weird.

Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
Really.

Speaker 1 (01:01:56):
I thought that's more of a family and he hates it.
If we're in a cand I go okay, I go, well,
do you mind if I just knock because it's sort
of a thing I'm not going to do. I see
you on the floor dead, absolutely dead on the film, like, oh, guys,
he died watching countdown, and go, well, that's why you
would have wanted. I go help me and we get you.
But you've you were eating snacks and you're absolutely covered

(01:02:16):
in stacks and they're stuck to you, and like ah,
and because your heart exploded, your actual ribcage exploded like
a like an onion burst out, and I was like,
fucking hell. Sorry everyone, I didn't want you to see
all this. Anyway, we have to chop you up, put
you in in the coffin. We all do it together.
It's quite a nice all together. And it turns out
there's more of you than I was expecting. And this

(01:02:36):
coffin is absolutely jammed. There's only enough room in this
coffin for me to slip one DVD into the side
for you to take across to the other side. And
on the other side it's movie night every night. What
film are you taking to show the people in TV
heaven when it is your movie night, mister Jack.

Speaker 3 (01:02:52):
Thorne, I'm taking Er Series one.

Speaker 2 (01:02:55):
So because Eat already be there, right, I mean like
there's no chance to eat. This is all those films
will be there, and they need television. Television is as
important as film, and I need to challenge their sort
of products of just kind of like you know, film
is all important and just go. You need to watch

(01:03:16):
this and understand where TV can go.

Speaker 1 (01:03:19):
Now, Jack Torn, I've got very strict rules on this show,
but this is how much I respect you as a
writer I'm going to and how much I love it
you are, I'm going to allow you. Loves Labour's last
also because when it was on DVD, that episode was
certified eighteen by the British Broadcasting Film Classification, so it

(01:03:39):
kind of has film. It's film adjacent because I had
to give it a special directing it the deep impact
and I have absolutely you can have it, Jack. What
is next for us to look out for that you
have written or you're doing anything.

Speaker 3 (01:03:55):
There's two TV shows con be on Netflix.

Speaker 2 (01:03:57):
One's called Toxic Down, one's called Adolescents and they're just
coming out together, which is annoying because I wanted them
to come up separately, but they're coming out quite quite
close to each other. And I think both have really
really got really good work from other people.

Speaker 1 (01:04:14):
Well, I'm excited for them, and I'm very excited for
Lord of the Flies. Jackdawn, Thank you. I know you
don't do a lot of these. It really means a
lot that you did this. Oh I love your podcast.
Thank you very much. I have absolutely loved it. Thank
you for talking with me. Have a lovely day. Good day.
So that was episode three hundred and thirty. Head over

(01:04:36):
to the Patreon at Patreon dot com. Forward Saspect GOLs
team for the extra twenty minutes of chat, secrets and
video with Jack. Go to Apple Podcasts. Give us a
five star writing and right about the film. It's the
most to you and Wis. I love the thing to read.
It helps numbers and it's very much appreciated. I do
hope you're all well. Thank you all for listening. Thank
you to Jack for giving me his time. Thanks to
Scruby's pivot there's traction pieces of network. Thanks the Buddy
Peace for producing it. Thanks to I Heart Media. And

(01:04:57):
Wilfare with Big Money Players Network for hosting it. Thanks
to Adam some photographics, at least to light them for
the photography. Come join me next week for Christmas. We
will have a very special treat in the form of
a unique yearly very special body Peace Mix. Thank you
all for listening. I hope you have wonderful holidays and
a lovely time with whoever you are with. In the meantime,

(01:05:19):
have a lovely Christmas and please be excellent to each other.

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Jack Thorne (writer / playwright / Lord Of The Flies / His Dark Materials) • #330

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Jack Thorne (writer / playwright / Lord Of The Flies / His Dark Materials) • #330