Kamau

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Episode Transcript

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Do I start, Welcome to the podcast. I'm happy to start.
This is comedian w Kamal Bell. We met years ago
at the beginning of both of our careers. I think
I bombed a couple of volunteer events. Yeah, you bombed

(01:28):
a little bit, and I got to see bombs. I
love this guy. Look at him bombing like a pro. Yeah,
it's great and uh and yeah. It's been wild that
our careers have gone in these crazy trajectories and now
we reunited to discuss Fred Rogers today come out has
a CNN show called United Shades of America where he
travels around the US talking to people about what's wrong

(01:49):
with this country. And I wanted to talk with him
because he did something really interesting with that show. He
sat down with some of the most hateful people I
can think of, and he had a conversation. I'm Carvel
Wallace and this is Finding Fred, a podcast about Fred

(02:09):
Rogers from I Heeart Media and Fatherly in partnership with
transmitter media early and I think it was the first
season you talked with some white nationalists, uh, and some
pretty heavy movers in that. I imagine you've got a

(02:33):
lot of pushback from people about giving the people platform
given how did you make sense, why did you decide
to do that, and what did you learn in that experience.
I believe, and you know, platform and Richard Spencer or
any of these people would be tonight in the United Shades,
I'm going to take the night off and let Richard
Spencer run the show. To me, that's platforming. That's normalizing.

(02:58):
Sitting out and talking to Richards Spencer about what he
believes in all of his white nationalists beliefs in the
middle of an episode that is highlighting the importance of
immigration and refugees in this country. To me, it is
not platforming. I also think when Trump was first selected,
the fear of platforming and normalizing is I think we're
really buzzwords at the left held onto in lieu of

(03:20):
doing the actual work, Like you know, no, we I
feel like looking at it in the face is actually
helpful to me to go how serious is this? Not
looking at it in the face, to me, is is
sort of a way to sort of like just pretend
like you can still go to yoga class and and
uh in the farmer's market, because I think the reason
why we have Trumpet office right now is because a
lot of people on the left were wanting to look
at him, you know, they weren't willing to really like

(03:41):
is this possible? No, it's not possible, because I've been
doing a chance in the morning. So for me, it's
the fact is it's like if we've if we if
we've learned anything in this current air of Americas that
we got to look at this stuff in the face,
you know what I mean. So for me, you know,
it's the it's Sunlight's the best disinfectant. Like I I
believe that. Did you find Richard Spencer uh intimidating who's

(04:04):
probably a foot shorter than you. Yeah, he's not as
short as most whitespurad. I think that's why he was
the leader. He was like, did you play in the NBA?
After you go in there, you do realize everybody's like
five four and like and they would sort of trying
to like walk up to me, a couple of them
trying to get me to a flinch or just sort
of like and it was like, also six four man,

(04:26):
I'm not not. I just sort of like it became
fun to me to sort of like look comfortable, you know.
And so by the time I sat down and talked
to him, it was really fine. We are here to
talk about Mr Rogers. And that's good cause I was like, man,
this is really not what I prepared. Know. I tend
to approach things from like, um, and Uh, the reason
I'm asking about your experiences with Richard Spencer's because I've

(04:46):
been really stuck on this this sort of ethical position
that Fred Rogers took, which is that it's it's you
I like. I like you just the way you are, Uh,
that kind of thing. And I wonder how that squares
with people who were like Richard Spencer. Could Fred Rogers

(05:07):
say I like you just the way you are? And
I know you can't speak for him, So I'm going
to ask you to speak for you. Did you when
you look at him, see anything that you felt compassion
for when you talked with Richard Spencer or some of
these other white nationalists? So, Uh, the thing is, when
I think about that, I like you just where you
are when you sit down with people individually. A lot
of times all that stuff, a lot of the bluster

(05:29):
goes away. Like when I talked to the clan and
uh in was it in Kentucky. It became very clear
to me after a while, like, oh, you guys have
come from a community where there's no jobs, there's no opportunity,
your educational system isn't good, and you're just mad, and
you have bought a bill of goods from somebody that
is black people's fault. Like that's the problem is that

(05:52):
that you went from, Like I want more opportunity and
more jobs of my community too, It's got to be
somebody's fault. And then somebody sold you can we talked
to you about black peop they handed you be it's
black people fall pans. And so for me, when I
take away the when I look at that part, I go,
that's the part I could have empathy with. You know,
these people are not the billionaire people who were running
this country and using tools of white supremacy to keep

(06:14):
things going. These are people who are like, got sold
a bill of goods based on being vulnerable. A few
years ago, I was in Michigan reporting a story. I
was at the gym and I looked up and saw
Kamal's face on the TV screen. This was several months

(06:34):
after the election, and the alt right was feeling definitely emboldened,
so much so in fact, that they were white supremacists
marching in downtown Berkeley, of all places, which happened to
be where Kamal lived. He had just spoken at a
counter protest, and on Fox News they were playing his
speech and calling him a radical black separatist, and suddenly

(06:57):
Kamal had become a target of white premises. That was
when I got streets got hot for me for a second,
exactly the streets got hot for you. And all of
a sudden, I was I had a lot of feelings
seeing that, actually, dude, Like, on the one hand, I
was like, this is absurd, But then in the other hand,
it kind of struck a little bit of fear in
my heart because I thought, God, if you can call comal,

(07:18):
or if you can get like like the Confederate flag
waivers income as a black separation, what who among us
is safe? Is like, this is the most integrated dude
I've ever met. And uh and um. I was just
really amazed by that, and I thought a lot about it,
and I guess I want to ask you what that
experience was like for you to be targeted in that

(07:39):
way and how you made sense of that, like how
you navigated that. Was that scary at all? Like it
only became because you had kids at that point. Yeah,
it became scary because over the next week or so,
it like I became the like the the deep intern
dark web, intern hinterland internet all right target, Like I
was just the person on summer Jam screen. So like

(08:01):
like so all these memes start going up, and you know,
we were in downtown Berkeley, so people see me walking
into my house, you know, and also we're right now
where all the alright rallies are. It was scary. It
was like the first time I felt like that my
thing I do on TV is can affect my family,
like in a way that it feels like we have
to sort of like think about our security protocols and

(08:22):
think about like where we send our kids to school
as opposed to like oh yeah, you know, and all
these sorts of things that sort of that that we
weren't thinking in that way before. Doesn't that kind of
make you hate people like they're putting your family in
jeopardy and putting you in the situation where you feel like,
I mean, doesn't that like trigger rage and hating, you
know it triggers like I'd say it, triggers like Papa Bear,

(08:44):
protect your family, you know it, triggers like don't do
anything stupid the people who are doing this I already
wasn't a fan of anyway, like this has really Yeah,
I sort of knew this, you know. And also the
history of black people in this country is that, you know,
you can't know the history of are people without knowing that, like,
you know, we get taken out regularly. Now. I don't
think I'm not trying to be some sort of martyr

(09:06):
or something, but it's just like, if I choose to
do this work and I choose to be public about it,
It's not that I'm like ready to die or any
of that nonsense. You know, I got too many children
to die right now. But I do feel like this
is a part of the gig. I mean, my wife
talked about that, like, and I think about like people
like Dick Gregory as far as like he actually gave
up comedy to be an activist at one point in
his life, and so this is the work I want

(09:28):
to do, and it feels right now in this country,
feels like it's necessary. If anything, I feel bad, but
I'm not doing more of it. I think more about that,
like what more can I do? Or how can I
do this better than I think about the people who
who have enmity towards me. And also the thing is
most of them don't even They're just blah blah blah,
like they're gonna move on to the next person. We'll

(09:52):
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(10:33):
traditional homeopath a practice, not accept the medical evidence, not
ft evaluated. He loves me, he loves me, not he
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otter dot ai. What's your first earliest memory of seeing

(11:51):
Fred Rogers or seeing a show? Did you watch you
growing up? I watched you growing up, so I don't
have like I don't have the time my mom sat
me down, we didn't have cable, so I guess most cable. Uh.
And so you know I'm talking about like Sesame Street,
Mr Rogers, the Electric Company three to one contact for
my old heads out there lane right now. Yeah. So

(12:13):
for me, like Mr. Rogers is just one of the
things that I watched on TV. And then for me,
the weird part is like, even when I got older,
every now again you flip past and go, let me
just watch a few minutes. Why what is what? What
did that bring to you? I think there's something the
greatest of kids programming, there's something so pure about it
that it's doing anything he wants to do that adults
watch it too, Like I think that's true. When it's

(12:35):
not pure, when it's really about like you just want
my kid to buy this thing, don't you, then it's
like it becomes too self conscious of like the things
that's trying to do. But Mr Rogers is super pure.
It's just like this is one persons statement being supported
by the team of people around him and somebody who
works in TV. That's hard to do. Yeah, I was
gonna ask you about that, like as it has your
understanding of what he was able to do change now

(12:55):
that you are a maker of television. Yes, great, thank you,
goodnight everyone. Yeah. No, I mean it's like it's hard
to get everybody on you if you have everybody on
the same page that they're all in service of of
Mr Rogers. I can still call Mr Rogers. You say
Fred because you know him like that, But I've been
called that only by black people on the show. I

(13:15):
just want to point that out because white people have
been like Fred Red Fred and then viewing and she
was like, you know him like that exactly like Fred Rogers.
Excuse me? Are you a son that? Uh? Mr Rogers?
Is that it's clear that like everybody was on the
same page, or at least I knew that this was

(13:36):
this is the voice I'm following. That's not that's not
case nine percent of the TV that's ever been made.
That's not the case that they're not listening to one
for even some of the TV we like, it was
like it was a nightmare back there, but when it happens,
you can feel it. So for me, there's not much
difference between Mr. Rogers and Atlanta. With Donald Glover, you
could feel it like there's not much on that show

(13:56):
that Donald Glover hasn't been like check, it's fun, it's
the Atlanta's really interesting comparison, one that I had never
made um but that rings true for me, partially for
what you said about the creative process, but also because
both of those shows make a lot of use of
space and silence, and they do this thing where they
train the listeners to sit still long enough to start

(14:16):
to feel and experience more subtle levels of what's going on.
And they've built a lot of trust with the audience.
So even if you're like, where's this going, he was like,
I'm gonna sit here and see. And I think that's
the important thing too, is that the that you when
you build that trust with the audience, and that comes
from the audience knowing I trust that, uh Mr Rogers
or Mr Glover, I trust that these people have a plan,

(14:39):
because so many times you watch a lot of TV
and it's like there's no plan. They just had to
get this done. They just had to turn this in
and there was a way which Mr Rogers did. There's
something that feels like we're here for one purpose, we're
all pulling together and we're not trying to do something
that is cooler hip or trendy. We want to create
an experience and have you joined us today and come
back the next time. Also, I think talk, I mean

(15:01):
I think againswers from Mr Rogers. I think the reason
why I respond to Mr Rogers because the way my
mom treated me talking to your kids like their people,
you know, like talking, not talking to them like their kids. Like.
Certainly Mr Rodgers as slows down because he's trying to
make you understand, but you feel like he's a friend
of yours. And I think and for me as a parent,
when you feel like you're like I'm the I'm your friend.

(15:22):
I mean, I'm the friend who pays the rent. So
every now and again I make some decisions. But really
I would rather us be friends. I would rather us
talk through these problems instead of like, instead of me
saying because I said so, yeah, you know, it's interesting
you bring up your mom and I met your mom
and read her book, and um, she's a person with
a very strong black identity, which is part of the
way you were raised. And um, and I wonder when

(15:44):
I talk to people about Fred Rogers a lot of times, uh,
they'll they'll bring up in some way depending on their race.
A question about how I feel about him as a
black man. In other words, the question I was actually
talking with, of all people, I'm not gonna name drop.
I was talking with someone, don't. I was talking with
someone in Cape cod randomly that i'd run into who

(16:07):
is a known historian, and I said, I'm doing this
thing in Fred Rodgers, and he immediately said he was
a white guy. He immediately said, how do black people
feel about Fred Rogers? Just like, sir, That's why I'm
not gonna name drop, because I don't want to I
don't want to kill his book sales because this book
is very important. But but that's the first thing he said,
and uh whatever, I stumbled through the answer also kind
of annoyed and the excuse myself, But it did make

(16:28):
me think about this inherent belief that somehow what Fred
Rogers did was like doesn't work for blackness, or there
was misaligned and like, you know, that's been I mean,
in the famous Eddie Murphy sketch. That's sort of the
premise of that joke is that if you did Fred
Rogers in the black neighborhood, it might look like this.
But I want to hear you talk a little bit
about how people understand funny. At the same time I

(16:48):
was taking into Mr Rodgers, I was also watching Eddie murphyst.
I never saw Eddie Murphy's Mr Robinsons Neighborhood as being
critical of Mr Rogers. His portrayal of Mr Rogers felt
like Mr Rogers, but an Eddie Murphy version of it.
And also it never occurred to me that it was
really the black version of Mr Rodgers. It was just
the the the this version of blackness of Mr ross

(17:09):
which is the thing white people do. That's the black version. None, No,
that's like the hood, criminal black person M Rodgers. Sorry,
thereference criminal and black Viking news. Yea, so radical separatists
come out bell Yeah, so again, Tucker Carlson again. So
for me, it was just the idea that like, this
is how this is Eddie Murphy. It was a love

(17:31):
letter Mr Rogers. And when I watched Mr Rogers, I
didn't watch him as a white guy. I watched him
as Mr Rogers. And I think that's that's the thing.
I think when a white person asked that question, they
understand black people and people of color can tell the
difference between a white guy and Mr Rogers. If that
show had been made for white kids, we would have
been able to sniff it through. Doesn't feel like it's

(17:52):
talking to me, But the fact is Mr Rogers was
talking to all kids. I've been trying to get a
black person to come on this show and say that
Mr Rogers transcends race. Can I can? I get you?
Can I put you down for transcends race the way
that when Prince died, he transcended race. Remember printing Prince
dying David Bowie died. I was like, no, I said,

(18:13):
David Bowie transcended race. Mr Rogers transcends his race. Wow,
we got it, We got it, Cliff. Uh. Yeah, it's
funny because I think a lot about um, I think
a lot about this. He doesn't transcend race, he transcends
his race. That's so that's an interesting distinction. Tell me

(18:34):
more about that, just that he that he's so good
that I don't even score him down for being white,
that I don't do good, don't see him through through
his whiteness, which I see a lot of people through
their Yeah. Yeah, I actually it's a really interesting point.
No one made that quite as articulately. You're so articulate. Uh,
no one's made that quite as articulately as you have.

(18:56):
That there was something It wasn't that he transcended for
the existence of race, but something about the way he
presented himself didn't allow you to think of him just
as a white guy period. And I wonder what that is, Like,
I mean, part of me thinks that because he was
trafficking in a certain kind of respect and kindness that

(19:18):
typically we don't see associated with like your average run
of the mill white person when interacting with like the
rest of the world or your average run of the
mill kids show, Like there are a lot of times
they're yelling, you know, they're they're not actually trying to connect,
they're trying to u order, you know, like do this now,
do this? Go buy it? Like it's very like the

(19:41):
cast of kid shows. And he was just like he
just wanted to sit with you, and it was clear
he cared. And I mean, it's so hard to do
through the TV camera when you're looking at the camera,
because he's literally looking at a camera. He's not looking
at a person. And I know that too, for having
to look at camera when they say talk directly the
camera and I was like, yeah, because you're looking at
a box and you're looking at like half the camera
guys shoulder and you know, and you're wondering if he's

(20:02):
paying attention or whatever? How do you go about that?
Because I was gonna ask you about that, like about
similarities if any that you see between Fred Rogers United Shades.
I don't know if you can find that, but but
just as you a person who has to like do
a similar kind of work, which is I need to
talk to people, need to reach people at home, how
do you go about that technically? Like how do you
think through that? The thing I think about is vulnerability,

(20:24):
Like if you're vulnerable on camera and if you let
people know when you don't know, or if you let
people see you uh, if if you let people see
you break, or if you let people see you like
basically sweat, you know, there's like then they connect with
you as on a human level. I'm trying to be clear,
I'm not the expert here. I'm sitting with some experts,
and I also don't always have the right opinion, and

(20:45):
sometimes I mispronounced things and sometimes I will say so
we had a moment in a show we did last
year in Salt Lake City and I sat down with
a bunch of young people to talk about what was
life like to be Mormon and me and the LGBTQ
plus community. What's that like? And I said to one person,
I said, well, as a gay man, and the person
stops said no, no no, no, I'm not a gay man
of intersex and I was like, oh sorry, and the

(21:07):
person was like, no, no, big deal, Like basically happens
all the time. And the first edit that came back
from the production that cut out the moment of my mistake,
because that's what you're supposed to do in TV, cut
out the mistakes. I was like, no, no, no, no no, no,
that's real, that really happened. I'm not if you cut
it out, it looks like I always know what I'm
talking about. To me, I like lean on the fact that,
like I that the audience, to the cores in the
show knows that I'm not trying to be the expert.

(21:28):
So for me, Mr Rogers feels like a person who's
making a TV show. He doesn't feel like the host
of a TV show. And I talked about that with
the United Shades. If I start to feel like I'm
hosting the TV show We're doing something wrong. Fred Rogers,
his work was very much of his time. He did
something on TV that was, on the one hand, very successful.

(21:49):
On the other hand, almost no one else repeated it.
I mean, in his legacy, there's a small tradition, but
for the large part, the rest of children's television just
became more manic, more insane, more not And so I
guess I wonder, assuming that you couldn't have that exact
person appear right now in the twenty one century, what

(22:11):
would if Fred Rogers of the century look like. You
don't want somebody to repeat, You want somebody to stand
on the shoulders of And also it means they may
make it look differently. And so I do feel like
like I think about like hair Love the animated you know.
So so Matthew Cherry wrote a book hair Lovel about
a black dad doing his daughter's hair, trying to learn
how to do his his black daughter's hair. And I

(22:32):
would say black twice, just because it's possible for people
to have kids with different races. So it just turned
they turned into an animated feature. And it is that
almost sounds like science fiction to me, that that's in
a movie theater. And it's not like if you read
the book, that's all it's about. It's not about and
now we got to go fight a dragon. It's and
it's not about like or some bad things gonna happen

(22:54):
if I don't do your hair. But the steaks are
not that high. But for me, there's something about it
that it's pure, And that's Mr rogers legacy is is
the pureness of how to sort of like put out
good content for kids in the world that is so
pure that adults are excited about it. Given how expanse
of his vision for love and acceptance in the world was,

(23:14):
and given how uh shitty the world the world is,
do you think he was successful? Yes, because I think
that this is the thing I said earlier about like
when we're making when I'm making anything I'm making, whether
it's a podcast or writing or you know, shades, when
I'm writing it, I'm like, this is going to change
the world just because you I think you have to

(23:36):
feel that. Have to feel that way. Every basketball player
thinks that they're they're like top five all times. Have
to think that, whereas why you why are you stepping
out there? But then when you get on the court,
you just gotta make sure you're helping win the game.
Maybe in the gym by yourself your top five all time,
or maybe when I'm home writing on my computer or
if I'm making nice shades. I think this is going

(23:56):
to be the thing that is like the definitive episode
on reproductive justice in America, and then at the end
you have to be I hope people watch it and
talk about it, and I think Mr Rogers one because
people watched it and talked about it, have been inspired
by it. You know. I think that it's a big
thing to do to make the world a more equitable,
just loving place. That's a big task, and you have

(24:19):
that more people working on it. You know. At the
same time he was working on it, there's a guy
across town named Martin Luther King Jr. Who was also
working on you know what I mean. So like and
they are different ways to do this. I don't want
to call either one of them failures because because it
didn't happen. I think that I believe, and there's not proof, right,
was that things move in a more equitable and just direction.
They just don't always move consistently, and they don't always

(24:40):
stay moving forward. Right now we're at a point where
it's starting to move back. But I feel like in
the long line of history, to paraphrase Dr King who
stole it from a Quaker, the arc of history has
been towards justice, but it hasn't always been consistently towards justice.
And I think that, Yeah, I think that the fact
that we're sitting here talking about Mr Rogers and the
fact that we're sort of d constructing it. Two black

(25:00):
men talk with Mr Rogers, Mission accomplished? Do you um?
My last question is, uh, if he were here, I
would be crying. And after you composed yourself and stopped
weeping and cleaned all this snot off of your face,
bubbles bubble bubble clear snock bubbles, what would you ask him?

(25:25):
What would I ask Mr Rogers? I guess the thing
you do? You feel successful? I think that's the thing,
because I think a lot of times people who are
in on that side of it have very complicated things
about what they've done. Sometimes it's like, it doesn't matter
what you caught, what the world tells you, that's how
do you feel inside? And so for me, if he

(25:47):
felt like nope, that would make me say, I've been
thinking about that a lot too. Was Fred's successful? Did
Fred feel successful? Next time we'll explore the ways in
which he was, but also the many ways in which

(26:09):
he wasn't. I went up to get him to come
down to the studio and he was. He was a mess.
He said, why am I doing these? These aren't going
to do any good. Finding Fred is produced by Transmitter Media.
Our team is Dan O'donnald, Jordan Bailey and Mattie Foley.
Our editor is Sarah Nicks. The executive producer for Transmitter

(26:30):
Media is gretit Cone. Executive producers at Fatherly are Simon
Isaacs and Andrew Berman. Thanks to the team at I
Heart Media. Our show is mixed by Rick Kwan, music
by Blue Dot Sessions and Alison Layton Brown. I'm Carla Wallace.
Thank you for listening. Teething can be a real nightmare

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Slash kind claims based on traditional homeopath a practice, not
accepted medical evidence, not ft evaluated. What spring like in
Winter's favorite town? Park City, Utah? Imagine waking up on
a blue bird day to ski the greatest snow on Earth.
Having three resorts, Park City, Mountain, Deer Valley in Woodwork,

(27:58):
Park City in your backyard, Exploring miles of wide open
spaces by snowshoe or cross country skis. Wandering our historic
main street with its opera, ski scene and award winning restaurants.
To discover spring in winter's favorite town. Learn to visit
safely at visit park City dot com. The more we

(28:19):
learn about COVID nineteen, the more questions we have. The
biggest question now, what's next? What will COVID bring in
six months a year? If you're feeling anxious about the future,
You're not alone. Cal Hope offers free COVID nineteen emotional
support call eight three, three, four, six seven three or

(28:43):
live chat at cal hope dot org today