December 3, 2019 • 30 mins
On failure. On trying again. On doing enough.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Teething can be a real nightmare for your little ones.
Highlands Naturals Baby oral pain relief tablets can help ease
the pain. It's gentle, natural active ingredients like camemeo and
arnica suite your baby's mouth, and gums made with ingredients
derived from plant minerals and other sources free of harsh chemicals.
You can count on Highlands for serious pain relief for
your teething baby. Highlands is a kinder way to care
(00:21):
for teething. Visit Highlands dot com slash kind that's h
y l a n ds dot com. Slash kind claims
based on traditional homeopathrocractice, not accept the medical evidence, not
ft evaluated. Hi. I'm Abne Moone and I'm Ricked Schwartz
and we're here from the San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance,
the global conservation organization behind the world chame of San
(00:42):
Diego Zoo and Safari Park, and together we're excited to
announce the podcast Amazing Wildlife. Here incredible stories about wildlife
and the global efforts to save it as we explore
the connection between humans, wildlife, and the environment. Listen to
Amazing Wildlife. I'm the I Heart Radio app Apple podcast
or wherever you get your podcasts. Advertising is online and
(01:09):
delivered where you are, just like this radio ad. I
want to know what else is delivered where you are.
We'll give you a hint. It's shining as a honk
and comes with special features that you get to personally
pick out, like leather or cloth, sunroof or moonroof, or
four wheel drive versus all wheel drive. Yeah, a car,
A CarMax car. Buy online, get it delivered to you.
(01:29):
It's car buying reimagined Carmacks available within a sixty mile radius.
To select doors, see CarMax dot com for details. Some
restrictions apply. Hey everyone, it's carvel And before we get
into this episode, I want to ask you a favor.
Throughout this series, we've talked a lot about how Fred
Rogers has helped show us how to make the world
a kinder place, a better place. But now we want
(01:52):
to hear from you. We want to hear a story
about when someone in your life showed you what it
means to be a helper. Maybe it's someone in your family,
or someone in your community, or someone that you haven't
seen since you worry kid, but that you still think
about something They did to help you, whoever they are,
wherever they are, however they're helping, we want to hear
(02:13):
about it. So give us a call at three three
six five five zero five to nine. Again, that's three
three six five one five zero five to nine, and
tell us a story about someone who has shown you
how to be a helper and we might just play
it on an upcoming episode. Again that number is three
three six five one five zero five two nine. Or
(02:36):
you can tweet your story with the hashtag finding Fred. Okay,
now let's start the show. Here's a question, did Fred
Rogers do enough? By He had lived and breathed children's
television for more than twenty years. He had found kid
(02:57):
friendly ways to cover death and to sat nation and segregation,
but also haircuts and doctors visits and moving to a
new home. And he felt like he'd done enough. He
felt that he created a library of television visits that
covered everything a child needed to know about growing up.
So Mr Rogers decided he was done. In a week
(03:24):
of episodes slated to be his last, Mr Rogers takes
us out to his garage, where he shows us a
big cabinet filled with dozens and dozens of VHS tapes,
all neatly lined up in rows. You see, those are
all different visits, television visits that we have on tape,
(03:46):
share this one. Just as he's about to pop one
of these tapes into the VCR, Mr McFeeley stops by
and the two get to talking about how McFeeley has
changed since his earliest visits to the neighborhood. Huh, I
remember the days when it was very, very hard for
you to sit still, Mr mcpheeley. Well, I used to
talk louder then and talk faster. I'll show you a
(04:09):
tape on that machine over there and see if you
remember that visit. I'd like to see that visit. You know,
my video tape machine over here. See if you remember
this time when you came to visit me already. Fred
plays the tape and the two watch what is essentially
(04:30):
a rerun of a Mr. Rogers Neighborhood segment from a
few years before. Then, Fred explains, we'll be seeing a
lot of reruns from now on. Well, next week we'll
start to show all of these visits so everybody can
see them the whole way through. Well, I'll look forward
to that. And with that Mr Rogers signed off, I'm
(04:52):
Carla Wallace and this is Finding Fred, a podcast about
Fred Rogers from I Heeart Media and Fatherly in partnership
with transmit Or Media. Fred Rogers felt like he'd done enough.
(05:14):
He created an encyclopedia of programs that anticipated the questions
and anxieties that children have as they grow and learn, like,
for instance, getting poked and prodded or stuck with a needle.
Over the years, Fred had made several visits to optometrists,
barber's doctors. Producer Arthur Greenwald worked with Fred in a
(05:34):
series of episodes about going to the hospital. He had
a long time interest in how children are frightened or
overwhelmed by hospitalization. You know, I was really struck by
There was this moment where he was talking about X rays.
He was talking with the physician about X rays and
the physician was explaining, well, you can we can see
your bones, and then Fred said, I know some children
(05:56):
who will wonder if if you can see my bones,
can you excre my head and see my thoughts? If
you can see the inside of a hand with X ray,
could you see the inside of somebody's head and know
what that person is thinking, No, uh, the X ray
picture won't show thoughts feelings. Those are things that we
(06:17):
really can't see a touch. Our thoughts are very own.
All thoughts are our own. That's good to know. When
I watched that, I laughed out loud because he was
a grown man, And but it wasn't like silly. It
was like kind of phenomenal and magical that he was
able to capture a very specific, very clear thought of
(06:37):
a child that was important. And of course some people
look at you like you're insane, But who said anything
about an X ray seeing my thoughts and feelings? But
by god, that is exactly what a preschool was thinking.
Fred was always working to eliminate misunderstandings, and that was
a real gift for television audience of toddlers who weren't
(06:59):
necessary really used to being seen and heard and responded to.
But this kind of deep focused listening made adults uncomfortable
because they're socially just not used to people paying attention
to their every word, and so a lot of the
things will casually say as a passing joke, Fred would
pause an interpret it out loud, which would be either
(07:23):
illuminating or embarrassing, depending on you know how comfortable you
are with that sort of conversation. It seems like Fred
was betting on most people being comfortable with that kind
of thing, because when he left Mr Rogers neighborhood, he
set out to make a new television program for adults.
He developed a new show with PBS called Old Friends,
(07:45):
New Friends. It featured Fred talking with other adults about
what they're passionate about and where their inspiration comes from.
That's what he was interested in. This is TV critic
David b and Cooley. It's like, if you're a musician,
where does the music come from? You know, what was
it like that made you become a musician and sort
(08:09):
of get to the bottom of what what is art
and what is an artist. The show was documentary style.
Fred visited different locations around the country. He talked to
famous and not so famous people about their lives and
showed them at work. Pittsburgh baseball legend Willie Stargel opened
up about resilience. Comedian Milton Burrow talked about the rewards
(08:30):
of fame. Fred visited Robert Frost's daughter and NPR hosts
Susan Stamberg. Old Friends, New Friends was conversational warm, and
because this was still Fred Rogers after all, it was slow.
Responses to the show were mixed. I saw them and
(08:50):
and I loved what he was doing with them, but
you have to you have to be open to it
and be interested. Not everybody loved it. Fred's biographer Max
King told me he didn't think it was very good.
I watched a lot of it. It's not particularly compelling.
The approach that he brought to children's television just didn't
translate to adult television. Betsy Siemens had worked with Fred
(09:14):
and Mr Rogers Neighborhood. She later helped produce episodes of
Old Friends, New Friends. The idea that he was going
to quit doing the Neighborhood, I thought, good for you,
you know, I mean, I I found like people move on.
I mean, I I think I think I was aware
that it was hard for him because he had been
(09:39):
doing this other work for so long, and I think,
you know, it's hard to just really switch gears and
work for a completely different audience and in a in
a really profoundly different medium. The show featured extreme close
ups of people's faces, long silent pauses, deep reflection on
family history, reason, and many of Fred's signature moves, slow pacing,
(10:03):
intimate production, emphasis, and emotions, but these didn't necessarily translate
for most grown ups. Fred's show was illuminating, but many
viewers found the intimacy embarrassing or even worse on TV boring.
One New York Times critic wrote that for some viewers,
(10:24):
This Quiet Man may appear to have taken one volume
too many. But I watched it the only episode you
can really find online an interview with concert pianist Lauren Hollander,
and honestly, I found it brilliant. The intimacy, the patient's
Fred's willingness to hover over difficult topics with sometimes difficult
(10:46):
people was transfixing. You're the only pianist who has ever
communicated to me the feeling that this instrument as a place,
that it is a country, that it's somewhere that you
(11:10):
go to say something. And I've felt that today. Poor Beethoven,
the throwes of his deafness, kept a little chimber pot
under the keyboard, and he used to keep his head
(11:30):
pressed here against the wood, and could not leave the
instrument long enough to take care of his needs. And
we who grow up here know that it's an answer,
because it's a way of dealing with that incredibly complex reality.
(11:54):
When I heard that, it occurred to me that maybe
that is the case for Fred to that he was
like Beethoven or Lauren Hollander, and that in a sense,
the precision and love and kindness of Mr Rogers neighborhood
was his place, his country where he could deal with
(12:15):
the incredibly complex reality. And he got to go back
there when he returned to Mr Rogers neighborhood. More than
that after a break, teething can be a real nightmare
(12:38):
for your little ones. So are you looking for the
best relief to soothe teething pain? Or Highlands Naturals Baby
oral pain relief can help us the pain. It's gentle,
natural active ingredients like cameramil and arnica. They'll soothe your
baby's mouth and gums. No chemicals, no funny business. Highlands
is a kinder way to care for teething. Get yours
at Highlands dot com, slash con that's h y l
(13:01):
A and d S dot com slash kind claims based
on traditional homeopath a practices, not accept the medical evidence,
not ft evaluated. Stimulant use disorder is a disease not
a choice, but getting help for your math CK cocaine
addiction is Choose treatment and choose Change California. Find proven
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(13:23):
loves me, he loves me not? He loves me, he
loves me not. He loves me not. So he returned
me because he had thirty days to do so, which
is plenty of time to discover you don't love someone
or in my case something, Because surprise, I'm a CarMax
car who is now back on the market thirty day
(13:45):
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see Carmacks dot com for details. In Fred Rod just
wrote himself a note. It's typed neatly on a piece
of yellow legal paper, the kind Fred used for early
(14:06):
drafts of his scripts. Am I kidding myself that I'm
able to write a script again? He wrote? Why don't
I trust myself? He continues, after all these years, it's
just as bad as ever. Oh well, the hour cometh
and now is when I've got to do it. Get
(14:27):
to it, Fred. Just a few weeks prior, a four
year old boy named Charles Green died after jumping from
his grandmother's seventh story apartment in Brooklyn. His mother told
reporters he'd been trying to fly like Superman. Fred Rogers
had already started working on new episode to the Neighborhood Program,
(14:49):
but he was shaken by the story of little Charles Green.
The kid was trying desperately to be like a hero
he saw on screen. When Fred left an Neghborhood Program
five years earlier, he thought he'd said everything there was
to say, but the world itself had changed. Daycare was
now a widespread and normal thing, but clearly a terrifying
(15:12):
thing to a toddler. And what to say to kids
about divorce as it became more and more prevalent. Television
itself had evolved, had become a never silent fixture in
every home, and there were more channels and programs spraying
all sorts of violence and fantasy at children. So Fred
did what he knew how to do best. Remember when
(15:34):
I was a boy, I used to take a sweater
and put it around my my shoulders like that, hold
the arms out like that, and pretend that I was flying. Yeah,
let's go out here. I'll show you what I had.
A couple of steps there at the porch, and I
(15:56):
would go like this, but of course I never took off,
because only birds and bats and bugs can fly. People can't.
Only birds and bats and bugs can fly. I want
(16:16):
to sing that with me. Only birds and bats and
bugs can fly. Sometimes I wish I could fly, but
only birds and bats and bugs and fly. Fred made
(16:36):
an entire week of programming about how superheroes aren't real.
He even visited the Universal Studio sound stage where The
Incredible Hulk was filmed, and he showed the star looferign
no putting on and taking off his costume. That's all
part of his work, all part. And here's the special
solution that takes the green makeup off. I liked seeing
(17:00):
the makeup coming off just as well as going on.
But I was glad to show my television friends that
because it's important to realize that people just don't change
shape and change color. That's all just sort of movie business,
isn't it. It's it's just makeup pretend. Of course, you
(17:20):
remember the note Fred wrote to himself. A few weeks later,
he added a handwritten PS. It wasn't easy, but it
was good. This I must remember. In the sixteen years
since Fred passed, he's been turned into a TV superhero himself,
someone who was born with extra powers of intuition and
(17:43):
communication and self control and love. Fred Rogers wasn't a superhero.
His biographer told me that Fred himself would be horrified
that anybody might think he was a saint. But producer
Margie Whitmer told me that Fred did believe that his
show mattered. It's hard, I think when you when you
(18:03):
become famous, there's lots of people who tell you how
wonderful you are. You know, he had lots of followers.
You tend to believe that you're making a difference. The
audience was national, even international. There were enormous lineups to
meet Mr Rogers when he did public appearances. He was
Mr Rogers, but the program was bigger than him. I
(18:24):
just had a letter the other day. It was from
this woman who said, fourteen years ago, I had a
baby who was sixteen months old, and I had that
baby in the backseat of the car and I was
(18:46):
in such a terrible depression my heart. I didn't even
know that I had put him back there. And she said,
I was driving along and I saw this truck coming
and I thought, I'm just gonna end it all. I'm
just gonna go straight into the truck because she was desperate.
(19:08):
And she said, I started turning to the left, and
all of a sudden, I heard this little voice singing,
it's a beautiful day in lint it. And she said,
I veered my car to the right, and I thought
of life and love. And now it's fourteen years later,
(19:35):
and I just need to thank you. Well. You know,
to hear that your works can be used in such
wonderful ways is a great blessing. When I started interviewing
(20:01):
people for this project, there were two questions. I asked
almost everyone who knew Fred, did you think he did enough?
Do you think Fred thought he did enough? And while
the responses varied, a lot of people told me the
same thing. Yes, they think Fred did enough, but he
(20:22):
always wanted to do more. Fred returned to the Neighborhood
program in The show ran until two thousand one. He
kept at it almost three times as long as his
first run, for decades and for generations of kids. He
was a voice of comfort, of stability, and of reason.
(20:44):
He'd made a special episode when Bobby Kennedy was assassinated
he'd recorded p S A S in the middle of
the Gulf War. Fred finally retired in two thousand one,
after nine hundred episodes and thirty years on the air.
But we don't know if Fred ever actually felt like
he did enough. We do know that just a few
(21:06):
weeks later, planes flew into the Twin Towers in New York.
When nine eleven happened, he was so distraught. I don't
think that I ever really until that day, I didn't
think on a real internal level about his mission as
(21:33):
saving the world. I thought. I think I just thought
about it in more practical terms, we of helping people
try and do the best they can. I think it
really hit home to him when those when the Twin
Towers got hit that he's not the savior. He can't
(21:56):
save the world. Some of Fred's producers, including Marky, convinced
him to send one final message in his office. I
went up to get him to come down to the
studio and he was He was a mess. He was said,
why am I doing these? These aren't going to do
any good. I said, you have to do them. And
(22:18):
I said, Fred, people care about you, people listen to you.
You have got to do these none of us can
save the road. We can do the best we can do.
In the p s A Fred recorded after September eleven,
he repeated his story he'd often told about his mother
(22:39):
comforting him when he was young. She told him, notice
the people who are helping during times of crisis. Look
for the helpers, she said, there's always someone trying to help.
Look for the helpers has become this sort of stock meme,
one that gets reposted all over so social media after
(23:00):
a catastrophe, whether a natural disaster or mass shooting. But
there's something I want you to notice about Fred's final message.
Listen closely. Who is he talking to. I'm just so
proud of all of you who have grown up with us,
and I know how tough it is some days to
(23:22):
look with hope and confidence on the months and years ahead.
But I would like to tell you what I often
told you when you were much younger. I like you
just the way you are. And what's more, I'm so
grateful to you for helping the children in your life
(23:44):
to know that you'll do everything you can to keep
them safe and to help them express their feelings in
ways that will bring healing in many different neighborhoods. It's
such a good fee linked to know that we're lifelong friends.
(24:05):
He's talking to us, to the adults in the room.
His producer, Betsy Siemens says, this is the message of
friends that we need now. Look for the helper. Was
advice to children, and we are not children. And I've
heard a lot of adults saying, oh well, Fred Rogers
(24:26):
made me feel so much better because he said look
for the helpers and no, no, that was advice to
children and that was not advice to the parent. It's
an interesting distinction though, between the child and the parents
and the adult. Uh, because the harm that comes to
many of us in our childhoods. I think this is
my theory my therapist agrees, is that is that it
(24:51):
we get frozen in moments in time and we don't
ever overcome our childhoods in that way, and so we
constantly have this child in us that is crying out
for the things that we need as children, crying out
for safety or for acknowledged manner for because we don't
get those things as young people. And so I think
that that may even be we may be experiencing a
mass level of fact as a country. Maybe it's one
(25:15):
of my theories. And so when people hear that quote,
that's the child in them, the unhealed child who's still going,
oh great, now I know what to do. It's it's
hard to be an adult, and it's hard to be
an adult when your own child hasn't been raised. Absolutely, however,
it is the universal human condition. It's true for all
(25:37):
of us, and it was true for him, and I
still think I know that one of the things that
was very important to him on the program was that
he always be the adult, the adult who can play
with children, and I mean he acknowledged all of our
inner children and his own, but he also understood that
(25:58):
there comes to time in life when we also have
to be the adult. And I think that was one
of the fine points of his work. We're the grown
ups doing what we can. Doing enough doesn't mean fixing
a tragedy as massive as nine eleven, but it does
(26:19):
mean helping. Every one of us has something essential inside
of us that we can use to help. For Fred,
that meant sitting at the bedside of a comatose kid,
or staying on the air for thirty years, helping children
grow into adults who could help other people. What does
it mean for you? I think he drove himself very hard,
(26:43):
and I think his expectations of himself were extraordinary, So
I would guess that he never thought he did enough.
Because here's the thing, there is no enough, there is
no finish line. The problems faced with are so big,
so many, that no one of us can address them alone.
(27:06):
It's not easy to keep trying, but it's one good
way to grow. It's not easy to keep learning, but
I know that this is so. When you've tried and learned,
you're bigger inside than you were a day ago. It's
(27:26):
not easy to keep trying, but it's one way to grow.
You've got to see every little bit you've got to
do it. Do it, do it, do it, and when
you're through, you can know who did it for you
(27:48):
did it, you did it, You did it. And when
you've done something that you wanted to do and you've
done it well, you and get such a good feeling
from that next time. I think it was the first
(28:12):
time in my life where I felt seen by an adult,
like when he got down to my eye level, introduced
himself and looked me in the eye. Of course, I've
had adults introduced themselves to me a million times up
into that point and asked me what my name was.
But the way that he looked at me, I felt
(28:35):
like you saw me. Finding Fred is produced by Transmitter Media.
The team is Dan O'donnald, Jordan Bailey and Maddie Foley.
Our editor is Sarah Nicks. The executive producer for Transmitter
Media is Greta Cohne. Executive producers at Fatherly are Simon
Isaacs and Andrew Berman. Thanks to the team at I
Heart Media. Fred Rogers interviewed tape courtesy of the Television
(28:57):
Academy Foundation Interviews. The full interview was available at Television
Academy dot com slash Interviews. Our show is mixed by
Rick Kwan, music by Blue Dot Sessions and Alison Layton Brown.
If you like what you're hearing, rate the show, review
the show and tell a friend I'm Carvel Wallace. Thanks
for listening. Teething can be a real nightmare for your
(29:33):
little ones. Highlands Naturals Baby oral pain relief tablets can
help ease the pain. It's gentle. Natural active ingredients like
camemeo and arnica soothe your baby's mouth and gums. Made
with ingredients derived from plant minerals and other sources free
of harsh chemicals. You can count on Highlands for serious
pain relief for your teething baby. Highlands is a kinder
way to care for teething Visit Highlands dot com, slash
(29:54):
kind that's h y l A n d s dot com.
Slash kind claims based on traditional homeopath practice. Not accept
the medical evidence, not ft evaluated. What spring like in
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(30:18):
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(30:40):
Call eight three three four six seven three or live
chat at cal Hope dot org. Today,
Teething can be a real nightmare for your little ones.
Highlands Naturals Baby oral pain relief tablets can help ease
the pain. It's gentle, natural active ingredients like camemeo and
arnica suite your baby's mouth, and gums made with ingredients
derived from plant minerals and other sources free of harsh chemicals.
You can count on Highlands for serious pain relief for
your teething baby. Highlands is a kinder way to care
(00:21):
for teething. Visit Highlands dot com slash kind that's h
y l a n ds dot com. Slash kind claims
based on traditional homeopathrocractice, not accept the medical evidence, not
ft evaluated. Hi. I'm Abne Moone and I'm Ricked Schwartz
and we're here from the San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance,
the global conservation organization behind the world chame of San
(00:42):
Diego Zoo and Safari Park, and together we're excited to
announce the podcast Amazing Wildlife. Here incredible stories about wildlife
and the global efforts to save it as we explore
the connection between humans, wildlife, and the environment. Listen to
Amazing Wildlife. I'm the I Heart Radio app Apple podcast
or wherever you get your podcasts. Advertising is online and
(01:09):
delivered where you are, just like this radio ad. I
want to know what else is delivered where you are.
We'll give you a hint. It's shining as a honk
and comes with special features that you get to personally
pick out, like leather or cloth, sunroof or moonroof, or
four wheel drive versus all wheel drive. Yeah, a car,
A CarMax car. Buy online, get it delivered to you.
(01:29):
It's car buying reimagined Carmacks available within a sixty mile radius.
To select doors, see CarMax dot com for details. Some
restrictions apply. Hey everyone, it's carvel And before we get
into this episode, I want to ask you a favor.
Throughout this series, we've talked a lot about how Fred
Rogers has helped show us how to make the world
a kinder place, a better place. But now we want
(01:52):
to hear from you. We want to hear a story
about when someone in your life showed you what it
means to be a helper. Maybe it's someone in your family,
or someone in your community, or someone that you haven't
seen since you worry kid, but that you still think
about something They did to help you, whoever they are,
wherever they are, however they're helping, we want to hear
(02:13):
about it. So give us a call at three three
six five five zero five to nine. Again, that's three
three six five one five zero five to nine, and
tell us a story about someone who has shown you
how to be a helper and we might just play
it on an upcoming episode. Again that number is three
three six five one five zero five two nine. Or
(02:36):
you can tweet your story with the hashtag finding Fred. Okay,
now let's start the show. Here's a question, did Fred
Rogers do enough? By He had lived and breathed children's
television for more than twenty years. He had found kid
(02:57):
friendly ways to cover death and to sat nation and segregation,
but also haircuts and doctors visits and moving to a
new home. And he felt like he'd done enough. He
felt that he created a library of television visits that
covered everything a child needed to know about growing up.
So Mr Rogers decided he was done. In a week
(03:24):
of episodes slated to be his last, Mr Rogers takes
us out to his garage, where he shows us a
big cabinet filled with dozens and dozens of VHS tapes,
all neatly lined up in rows. You see, those are
all different visits, television visits that we have on tape,
(03:46):
share this one. Just as he's about to pop one
of these tapes into the VCR, Mr McFeeley stops by
and the two get to talking about how McFeeley has
changed since his earliest visits to the neighborhood. Huh, I
remember the days when it was very, very hard for
you to sit still, Mr mcpheeley. Well, I used to
talk louder then and talk faster. I'll show you a
(04:09):
tape on that machine over there and see if you
remember that visit. I'd like to see that visit. You know,
my video tape machine over here. See if you remember
this time when you came to visit me already. Fred
plays the tape and the two watch what is essentially
(04:30):
a rerun of a Mr. Rogers Neighborhood segment from a
few years before. Then, Fred explains, we'll be seeing a
lot of reruns from now on. Well, next week we'll
start to show all of these visits so everybody can
see them the whole way through. Well, I'll look forward
to that. And with that Mr Rogers signed off, I'm
(04:52):
Carla Wallace and this is Finding Fred, a podcast about
Fred Rogers from I Heeart Media and Fatherly in partnership
with transmit Or Media. Fred Rogers felt like he'd done enough.
(05:14):
He created an encyclopedia of programs that anticipated the questions
and anxieties that children have as they grow and learn, like,
for instance, getting poked and prodded or stuck with a needle.
Over the years, Fred had made several visits to optometrists,
barber's doctors. Producer Arthur Greenwald worked with Fred in a
(05:34):
series of episodes about going to the hospital. He had
a long time interest in how children are frightened or
overwhelmed by hospitalization. You know, I was really struck by
There was this moment where he was talking about X rays.
He was talking with the physician about X rays and
the physician was explaining, well, you can we can see
your bones, and then Fred said, I know some children
(05:56):
who will wonder if if you can see my bones,
can you excre my head and see my thoughts? If
you can see the inside of a hand with X ray,
could you see the inside of somebody's head and know
what that person is thinking, No, uh, the X ray
picture won't show thoughts feelings. Those are things that we
(06:17):
really can't see a touch. Our thoughts are very own.
All thoughts are our own. That's good to know. When
I watched that, I laughed out loud because he was
a grown man, And but it wasn't like silly. It
was like kind of phenomenal and magical that he was
able to capture a very specific, very clear thought of
(06:37):
a child that was important. And of course some people
look at you like you're insane, But who said anything
about an X ray seeing my thoughts and feelings? But
by god, that is exactly what a preschool was thinking.
Fred was always working to eliminate misunderstandings, and that was
a real gift for television audience of toddlers who weren't
(06:59):
necessary really used to being seen and heard and responded to.
But this kind of deep focused listening made adults uncomfortable
because they're socially just not used to people paying attention
to their every word, and so a lot of the
things will casually say as a passing joke, Fred would
pause an interpret it out loud, which would be either
(07:23):
illuminating or embarrassing, depending on you know how comfortable you
are with that sort of conversation. It seems like Fred
was betting on most people being comfortable with that kind
of thing, because when he left Mr Rogers neighborhood, he
set out to make a new television program for adults.
He developed a new show with PBS called Old Friends,
(07:45):
New Friends. It featured Fred talking with other adults about
what they're passionate about and where their inspiration comes from.
That's what he was interested in. This is TV critic
David b and Cooley. It's like, if you're a musician,
where does the music come from? You know, what was
it like that made you become a musician and sort
(08:09):
of get to the bottom of what what is art
and what is an artist. The show was documentary style.
Fred visited different locations around the country. He talked to
famous and not so famous people about their lives and
showed them at work. Pittsburgh baseball legend Willie Stargel opened
up about resilience. Comedian Milton Burrow talked about the rewards
(08:30):
of fame. Fred visited Robert Frost's daughter and NPR hosts
Susan Stamberg. Old Friends, New Friends was conversational warm, and
because this was still Fred Rogers after all, it was slow.
Responses to the show were mixed. I saw them and
(08:50):
and I loved what he was doing with them, but
you have to you have to be open to it
and be interested. Not everybody loved it. Fred's biographer Max
King told me he didn't think it was very good.
I watched a lot of it. It's not particularly compelling.
The approach that he brought to children's television just didn't
translate to adult television. Betsy Siemens had worked with Fred
(09:14):
and Mr Rogers Neighborhood. She later helped produce episodes of
Old Friends, New Friends. The idea that he was going
to quit doing the Neighborhood, I thought, good for you,
you know, I mean, I I found like people move on.
I mean, I I think I think I was aware
that it was hard for him because he had been
(09:39):
doing this other work for so long, and I think,
you know, it's hard to just really switch gears and
work for a completely different audience and in a in
a really profoundly different medium. The show featured extreme close
ups of people's faces, long silent pauses, deep reflection on
family history, reason, and many of Fred's signature moves, slow pacing,
(10:03):
intimate production, emphasis, and emotions, but these didn't necessarily translate
for most grown ups. Fred's show was illuminating, but many
viewers found the intimacy embarrassing or even worse on TV boring.
One New York Times critic wrote that for some viewers,
(10:24):
This Quiet Man may appear to have taken one volume
too many. But I watched it the only episode you
can really find online an interview with concert pianist Lauren Hollander,
and honestly, I found it brilliant. The intimacy, the patient's
Fred's willingness to hover over difficult topics with sometimes difficult
(10:46):
people was transfixing. You're the only pianist who has ever
communicated to me the feeling that this instrument as a place,
that it is a country, that it's somewhere that you
(11:10):
go to say something. And I've felt that today. Poor Beethoven,
the throwes of his deafness, kept a little chimber pot
under the keyboard, and he used to keep his head
(11:30):
pressed here against the wood, and could not leave the
instrument long enough to take care of his needs. And
we who grow up here know that it's an answer,
because it's a way of dealing with that incredibly complex reality.
(11:54):
When I heard that, it occurred to me that maybe
that is the case for Fred to that he was
like Beethoven or Lauren Hollander, and that in a sense,
the precision and love and kindness of Mr Rogers neighborhood
was his place, his country where he could deal with
(12:15):
the incredibly complex reality. And he got to go back
there when he returned to Mr Rogers neighborhood. More than
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(13:23):
loves me, he loves me not? He loves me, he
loves me not. He loves me not. So he returned
me because he had thirty days to do so, which
is plenty of time to discover you don't love someone
or in my case something, Because surprise, I'm a CarMax
car who is now back on the market thirty day
(13:45):
money back guarantee. It's car buying reimagined Carmacks thirty dmit
see Carmacks dot com for details. In Fred Rod just
wrote himself a note. It's typed neatly on a piece
of yellow legal paper, the kind Fred used for early
(14:06):
drafts of his scripts. Am I kidding myself that I'm
able to write a script again? He wrote? Why don't
I trust myself? He continues, after all these years, it's
just as bad as ever. Oh well, the hour cometh
and now is when I've got to do it. Get
(14:27):
to it, Fred. Just a few weeks prior, a four
year old boy named Charles Green died after jumping from
his grandmother's seventh story apartment in Brooklyn. His mother told
reporters he'd been trying to fly like Superman. Fred Rogers
had already started working on new episode to the Neighborhood Program,
(14:49):
but he was shaken by the story of little Charles Green.
The kid was trying desperately to be like a hero
he saw on screen. When Fred left an Neghborhood Program
five years earlier, he thought he'd said everything there was
to say, but the world itself had changed. Daycare was
now a widespread and normal thing, but clearly a terrifying
(15:12):
thing to a toddler. And what to say to kids
about divorce as it became more and more prevalent. Television
itself had evolved, had become a never silent fixture in
every home, and there were more channels and programs spraying
all sorts of violence and fantasy at children. So Fred
did what he knew how to do best. Remember when
(15:34):
I was a boy, I used to take a sweater
and put it around my my shoulders like that, hold
the arms out like that, and pretend that I was flying. Yeah,
let's go out here. I'll show you what I had.
A couple of steps there at the porch, and I
(15:56):
would go like this, but of course I never took off,
because only birds and bats and bugs can fly. People can't.
Only birds and bats and bugs can fly. I want
(16:16):
to sing that with me. Only birds and bats and
bugs can fly. Sometimes I wish I could fly, but
only birds and bats and bugs and fly. Fred made
(16:36):
an entire week of programming about how superheroes aren't real.
He even visited the Universal Studio sound stage where The
Incredible Hulk was filmed, and he showed the star looferign
no putting on and taking off his costume. That's all
part of his work, all part. And here's the special
solution that takes the green makeup off. I liked seeing
(17:00):
the makeup coming off just as well as going on.
But I was glad to show my television friends that
because it's important to realize that people just don't change
shape and change color. That's all just sort of movie business,
isn't it. It's it's just makeup pretend. Of course, you
(17:20):
remember the note Fred wrote to himself. A few weeks later,
he added a handwritten PS. It wasn't easy, but it
was good. This I must remember. In the sixteen years
since Fred passed, he's been turned into a TV superhero himself,
someone who was born with extra powers of intuition and
(17:43):
communication and self control and love. Fred Rogers wasn't a superhero.
His biographer told me that Fred himself would be horrified
that anybody might think he was a saint. But producer
Margie Whitmer told me that Fred did believe that his
show mattered. It's hard, I think when you when you
(18:03):
become famous, there's lots of people who tell you how
wonderful you are. You know, he had lots of followers.
You tend to believe that you're making a difference. The
audience was national, even international. There were enormous lineups to
meet Mr Rogers when he did public appearances. He was
Mr Rogers, but the program was bigger than him. I
(18:24):
just had a letter the other day. It was from
this woman who said, fourteen years ago, I had a
baby who was sixteen months old, and I had that
baby in the backseat of the car and I was
(18:46):
in such a terrible depression my heart. I didn't even
know that I had put him back there. And she said,
I was driving along and I saw this truck coming
and I thought, I'm just gonna end it all. I'm
just gonna go straight into the truck because she was desperate.
(19:08):
And she said, I started turning to the left, and
all of a sudden, I heard this little voice singing,
it's a beautiful day in lint it. And she said,
I veered my car to the right, and I thought
of life and love. And now it's fourteen years later,
(19:35):
and I just need to thank you. Well. You know,
to hear that your works can be used in such
wonderful ways is a great blessing. When I started interviewing
(20:01):
people for this project, there were two questions. I asked
almost everyone who knew Fred, did you think he did enough?
Do you think Fred thought he did enough? And while
the responses varied, a lot of people told me the
same thing. Yes, they think Fred did enough, but he
(20:22):
always wanted to do more. Fred returned to the Neighborhood
program in The show ran until two thousand one. He
kept at it almost three times as long as his
first run, for decades and for generations of kids. He
was a voice of comfort, of stability, and of reason.
(20:44):
He'd made a special episode when Bobby Kennedy was assassinated
he'd recorded p S A S in the middle of
the Gulf War. Fred finally retired in two thousand one,
after nine hundred episodes and thirty years on the air.
But we don't know if Fred ever actually felt like
he did enough. We do know that just a few
(21:06):
weeks later, planes flew into the Twin Towers in New York.
When nine eleven happened, he was so distraught. I don't
think that I ever really until that day, I didn't
think on a real internal level about his mission as
(21:33):
saving the world. I thought. I think I just thought
about it in more practical terms, we of helping people
try and do the best they can. I think it
really hit home to him when those when the Twin
Towers got hit that he's not the savior. He can't
(21:56):
save the world. Some of Fred's producers, including Marky, convinced
him to send one final message in his office. I
went up to get him to come down to the
studio and he was He was a mess. He was said,
why am I doing these? These aren't going to do
any good. I said, you have to do them. And
(22:18):
I said, Fred, people care about you, people listen to you.
You have got to do these none of us can
save the road. We can do the best we can do.
In the p s A Fred recorded after September eleven,
he repeated his story he'd often told about his mother
(22:39):
comforting him when he was young. She told him, notice
the people who are helping during times of crisis. Look
for the helpers, she said, there's always someone trying to help.
Look for the helpers has become this sort of stock meme,
one that gets reposted all over so social media after
(23:00):
a catastrophe, whether a natural disaster or mass shooting. But
there's something I want you to notice about Fred's final message.
Listen closely. Who is he talking to. I'm just so
proud of all of you who have grown up with us,
and I know how tough it is some days to
(23:22):
look with hope and confidence on the months and years ahead.
But I would like to tell you what I often
told you when you were much younger. I like you
just the way you are. And what's more, I'm so
grateful to you for helping the children in your life
(23:44):
to know that you'll do everything you can to keep
them safe and to help them express their feelings in
ways that will bring healing in many different neighborhoods. It's
such a good fee linked to know that we're lifelong friends.
(24:05):
He's talking to us, to the adults in the room.
His producer, Betsy Siemens says, this is the message of
friends that we need now. Look for the helper. Was
advice to children, and we are not children. And I've
heard a lot of adults saying, oh well, Fred Rogers
(24:26):
made me feel so much better because he said look
for the helpers and no, no, that was advice to
children and that was not advice to the parent. It's
an interesting distinction though, between the child and the parents
and the adult. Uh, because the harm that comes to
many of us in our childhoods. I think this is
my theory my therapist agrees, is that is that it
(24:51):
we get frozen in moments in time and we don't
ever overcome our childhoods in that way, and so we
constantly have this child in us that is crying out
for the things that we need as children, crying out
for safety or for acknowledged manner for because we don't
get those things as young people. And so I think
that that may even be we may be experiencing a
mass level of fact as a country. Maybe it's one
(25:15):
of my theories. And so when people hear that quote,
that's the child in them, the unhealed child who's still going,
oh great, now I know what to do. It's it's
hard to be an adult, and it's hard to be
an adult when your own child hasn't been raised. Absolutely, however,
it is the universal human condition. It's true for all
(25:37):
of us, and it was true for him, and I
still think I know that one of the things that
was very important to him on the program was that
he always be the adult, the adult who can play
with children, and I mean he acknowledged all of our
inner children and his own, but he also understood that
(25:58):
there comes to time in life when we also have
to be the adult. And I think that was one
of the fine points of his work. We're the grown
ups doing what we can. Doing enough doesn't mean fixing
a tragedy as massive as nine eleven, but it does
(26:19):
mean helping. Every one of us has something essential inside
of us that we can use to help. For Fred,
that meant sitting at the bedside of a comatose kid,
or staying on the air for thirty years, helping children
grow into adults who could help other people. What does
it mean for you? I think he drove himself very hard,
(26:43):
and I think his expectations of himself were extraordinary, So
I would guess that he never thought he did enough.
Because here's the thing, there is no enough, there is
no finish line. The problems faced with are so big,
so many, that no one of us can address them alone.
(27:06):
It's not easy to keep trying, but it's one good
way to grow. It's not easy to keep learning, but
I know that this is so. When you've tried and learned,
you're bigger inside than you were a day ago. It's
(27:26):
not easy to keep trying, but it's one way to grow.
You've got to see every little bit you've got to
do it. Do it, do it, do it, and when
you're through, you can know who did it for you
(27:48):
did it, you did it, You did it. And when
you've done something that you wanted to do and you've
done it well, you and get such a good feeling
from that next time. I think it was the first
(28:12):
time in my life where I felt seen by an adult,
like when he got down to my eye level, introduced
himself and looked me in the eye. Of course, I've
had adults introduced themselves to me a million times up
into that point and asked me what my name was.
But the way that he looked at me, I felt
(28:35):
like you saw me. Finding Fred is produced by Transmitter Media.
The team is Dan O'donnald, Jordan Bailey and Maddie Foley.
Our editor is Sarah Nicks. The executive producer for Transmitter
Media is Greta Cohne. Executive producers at Fatherly are Simon
Isaacs and Andrew Berman. Thanks to the team at I
Heart Media. Fred Rogers interviewed tape courtesy of the Television
(28:57):
Academy Foundation Interviews. The full interview was available at Television
Academy dot com slash Interviews. Our show is mixed by
Rick Kwan, music by Blue Dot Sessions and Alison Layton Brown.
If you like what you're hearing, rate the show, review
the show and tell a friend I'm Carvel Wallace. Thanks
for listening. Teething can be a real nightmare for your
(29:33):
little ones. Highlands Naturals Baby oral pain relief tablets can
help ease the pain. It's gentle. Natural active ingredients like
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