December 10, 2019 • 24 mins
On growing up in the USSR. On loneliness and magic. On seeing and being seen.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, everyone, it's Carvel and before we get into this episode,
I want to ask you a favor. Throughout this series,
we've talked a lot about how Fred Rogers has helped
show us how to make the world a kinder place,
a better place. But now we want to hear from you.
We want to hear a story about when someone in
your life showed you what it means to be a helper.
(00:23):
Maybe it's someone in your family, or someone in your community,
or someone that you haven't seen since you were a kid,
but that you still think about something they did to
help you. Whoever they are, wherever they are, however they're helping,
we want to hear about it. So give us a
call at three three six five one five zero five
to nine. Again, that's three three six five one five
(00:44):
zero five to nine, and tell us a story about
someone who has shown you how to be a helper
and we might just play it on an upcoming episode.
Again that number is three three six five one five
zero five two nine, or you can tweet you're still
with the hashtag finding Fred. Okay, now, let's start the
show about a nash studio that sounds studio. Well, that's
(01:10):
very much like the place we make our television visits.
It's and Mr Rogers is in Moscow. Here would you
like to play? Of course I would. I'd love to
touch a piano wherever I go. My neighbor by, the
(01:46):
Soviet Union had just begun opening up dialogue with the US,
and that somehow landed Mr Rogers on the set of
good Night, Little Ones, the USSRS longest running children's program.
Back then, there was no television except for one channel
that was played on in Russian, which I couldn't understand,
mostly the news propaganda, and then there was a childhood
(02:08):
program that played at night that I also couldn't understand.
Kristof Putzel was an American kid living in Moscow at
the time. Both my parents were journalists. They were assigned
to cover what ended up being the collapse of the
Soviet Union. My parents job was to make sense of
(02:28):
a place that didn't make a lot of sense, where
information was controlled. Kristof's father was the bureau chief for
the Associated Press. His mother was the deputy bureau chief
for Time magazine. They moved to Moscow in and took
seven year old Kristof and his sister along with them.
My parents had told me that the biggest toy store
in the entire Soviet Union was across the street from
(02:51):
our house. This was the way they tempted me to
go there and greeted this whole thing as a seven
year old. And let me tell you, it was the
first time ever gone to a toy storey. Anyway, it's
nothing I wanted to buy, because there was nothing on
the shelves. Um, there was I think shoes, some clothes,
and a couple of tin toy things and some really
complicated models that I think we're for adults. And that
(03:14):
was it. That's the biggest toy store. Seven. It's nothing
I wanted. I'm Carlo Wallace and this is Finding Fred,
a podcast about Fred Rogers from I Heart Media and
Fatherly and partnership with Transmitter Media. We often talk about
(03:41):
how adaptable kids are, but Kristoff says, the move to
Moscow was really hard. Frankly, I was pretty depressed. Um,
you just have to understand just how hard Russia was
in the eighties, especially for a kid, you know, it
being so cold, dark, no access to stuff. Um. Sometimes
(04:03):
friends would record like tapes, the cassette tapes and then
mail them and I would listen to their voices. We
didn't live in an embassy. We lived in a square
foot apartment. My mom, my dad, my sister, myself, and
our Golden retriever, only golden retriever in the entire civic union.
People thought that it was a lion. Our apartment was
bugged because the KGB always kept a close eye on them,
(04:26):
and they would follow us anytime we were going outside
of the city. They would constantly try to attempt to
set up my parents to see if they were actually spies,
and always monitored whatever stories they're working on. There was
always somebody watching and nothing to watch on TV, no
familiar cultural touchstones like Sesame Street or three to one contact.
(04:51):
So I would watch the same VHS tapes over and
over and over again that people would mail from the US.
They just tape whatever was on TV and mail it.
We'd get it three, four or five months later, if
we got it at all. And those were like gold
I like you, Yes, I do, I like you. And
(05:15):
on a few of those precious VHS tapes were old
episodes of Mr Rogers Neighborhood. Certainly do I'm glad you
were with me on my swing. So Mr Rogers in
Moscow was big news, and Christoph's parents managed to get
word to Fred telling him about their depressed kid. And
(05:37):
for Fred Rogers, a note about a sad child was
like the bat signal. There was one day when my
parents told me to make sure I was home for dinner,
which I always was, but I remember being weird. They're like,
now there's a special dinner tonight. I just remember a
knock on the door and I'd sort of gotten used
(05:58):
to being let down by surprise as of them trying
to like cheer us up in communist Moscow, you know.
And I opened the door and there's Mr Rodgers in
his card again and the blue shoes, and my jaw
apparently just dropped. I remember just being awe struck. I
didn't understand why Mr Rogers was at my door. I
(06:20):
grew up watching Mr Rogers. I knew every character. I
knew I've probably had seen every episode at least for
that time frame. Um, And so there I was, and
he walks in the door, and he gets down to
my eye level and shakes my hand and introduces himself
as Fred Rogers and asked what my name was. And
(06:41):
I don't even know if I could get the words
out of my mouth because Mr Rodgers in the apartment,
and um, it was just him on his own and
just by himself. I think it was the first time
in my life where I felt seen by an adult,
(07:08):
like when he got down to my eye level, introduced
himself and looked me in the eye. Of course I've
had adults introduced themselves to me a million times up
to that point and asked me what my name was,
But the way that he looked at me, I felt
like you saw me. Then he came into the living
(07:31):
room and we sat down and he opened up his suitcase.
He had a suitcase with him. I feel like it
was a briefcase, but it must have been bigger than that. Um.
And he opens it up and they're all the puppets
I had never put together that Mr Rodgers did the
voices I had didn't And so suddenly they were talking
(07:52):
and I had King Friday and um and actually owl
in my on my couch. This is a real moment
for a child, you know. And UM, I think what
just really struck me about it was how normal it felt.
I mean, not normal, what's the word. UM, It's while
(08:12):
it felt surreal, it felt like I was in I
was in the Land of make Believe. Suddenly my couch
suddenly turned into that in my apartment, and um, it
was just like the show. I mean, he was wearing
the same stuff. This isn't a like since it set.
It wasn't like backstage he was. He had the cardigan
(08:35):
on and the blue shoes. Like, I mean, first of all,
I'm just really struck by the kind of person you
have to be, the kind of self possession you have
to have to just walk into some strangers houses and
spend the evening with them, like we don't, like, we
don't know. I don't know how to do that. I'm like, like,
ostensibly my job is to be charismatic in public, and
(08:58):
I still don't don't know if I would know how
to just go into someone's house with nothing but myself
and his suitcase of puppets to spend the evening with
them and their family. I have kids, and oftentimes I
think about the ways in which illusions are created for
(09:18):
them and also shattered for them. And so it's a
tailor as old as time that like the kid has
someone that they they have idolized and television, then they
meet them and then the person is not who they
thought they were, and they're crushed. And you had the
opposite experience. You you sort of thought this guy was fine,
and then you meet him and you find out that
he's exactly who as good as he says he is.
But I wonder if you ever felt let down. Later,
(09:43):
mom one time took me to the set of Sesame
Street because she was working on a story for Time magazine.
And I went and I was horrified because Big Bird
was walking around without the top, you know, just the legs,
and the muppets were all like, you know, like lying
there corpses, and and they'd warned my mom, they said,
you know, credit, they said, we don't usually encourage children
(10:05):
to come here. And it was a little jarring. Um.
But that wasn't the case with Mr Rodgers. More from
Kristoff in just a moment, Mr Rogers visit has stuck
(10:37):
with Christop. It's not just that Mr Rogers got down
on one knee and looked him in the eye, or
that he got to play with King Friday and X
the Owl. It's the kindness of Mr Rogers, the effort
Fred made in the midst of a busy trip to
help a kid like I mean, just think about this
for a second. He when all the way across town
(11:01):
in a city he didn't know, which is a hard
place to get around, to meet a family that he
didn't know, just because he heard that there were some
kids that were kind of having a tough time. So
why do you think he did that. It's a really
good question. I think that he heard that there were
some kids that, uh grew up watching the show and
(11:25):
we're having I think a tough time. There wasn't a
whole lot of stuff to look forward to, and then
it would be amazing if he would meet them, and
he apparently just jumped at the opportunity. And so of course,
you know, um, you can imagine a number of people
that might want to meet Fred Rodgers or I don't know,
maybe no one asked him. Yeah, he just came and
did it. And he spent real time. He like sat
on the couch and did a whole puppet show and
(11:48):
I played with them, like I got to hold I
mean that was crazy. I mean I got to hold
the king and the owl and the cat and like like.
And then he had dinner with us and then we
drove him back to the mayor an embassy where he
was staying, and so I sat in the back seat
of our station wagon. It was one of the only
subarus in the entire Soviet Union, and we sat in
(12:09):
the backseat and I just sat there with Mr Rogers
as we drove him across town and drove him to
the front of marrin Amazon Oh. And he was asking
questions because he didn't know anything about Moscow. So when
we're driving, he was asking questions about what's this, what's this?
I knew the answers like. I was like, oh, that's
um you know, that's the monument to your your gagar
And he was like, oh, that's interesting. Or do you
(12:29):
like space? I was like, yeah, I like space. I
remember just wanting, like always fantasizing about friends coming so
I could tell them about what this place was like.
And I'd be like, I know this looks weird, but
look at this. This is you know, look, yes, it's
normal to see like an entire army going down the street,
you know, like, oh yeah, we see tanks all the time.
Oh yeah, they parade these missiles around constantly. Like I
(12:51):
know it looks nuts, but that's what life is here.
And it never happened, because no one ever came to visit.
And I got to give that to to Mr Rodgers.
He must have known that just by him being there
this was had suddenly transformed Moscow, a place that I
hated as a child, into the most magical place I've
(13:13):
ever been. And then got to ride through Moscow with
Mr Rogers and point out all this stuff. I mean,
I still look back at that, it's like it was
just magical when I was a kid. As odd as
it sounds, I did the exact same thing. I imagined
(13:34):
Ricky Ricardo, for some reason, time traveling from the nineteen
fifties to my childhood in the eighties and letting me
explain everything to him Walkman and pac Man and Prince.
I think now that that was a cure for a
kind of loneliness that I felt. That Kristof felt that
(13:54):
maybe a lot of kids feel this world is so
big and some many things are happening to us all
the time. We feel sometimes like we're little helpless creatures
in the midst of all of it. So maybe it's
just really nice to think that there's someone somewhere who
cares what you like. Specifically, you are seeing and experiencing
(14:19):
That's the gift that Fred Rogers gave to Christophe that night,
and maybe that's the gift he gave to all of us.
You know. I have this really, this weird question that's
been on my mind. Was I think a lot about
good people and what makes a good person, and so
much of what Fred Rogers was about was about ways
and systems and methods for being a good person. And
(14:43):
I I keep returning to wise and everyone like that.
I want to ask you, first, do you think of
yourself as a good person? I do, but I think
it's taken a lot of time and struggle and experiences
with not always being in the best person, interactions with
not always the best people, but then also the experience
(15:07):
of having genuine connection uh and experiences with people that
consider really good. And I think that has helped me
become a better person and someone I'm still trying to
be um because I guess I wonder. I mean, I
I have this obvious question, which is, why isn't everyone
like Fred Rogers like why? Why? Like I assume that
(15:29):
you don't think of yourself was being capable of being
what he was or doing what he does, not I
guess I want to know what you feel like in
your own life stands in your way. It's a really
good question. I don't know, you know, like why I
(15:52):
think that I just might not have the patience that
he had for people, you know, I think just the
um at least not always, you know. I think I
have my moments, and I've certainly been inspired by him
and this memory, and I love what I do for
a living. But for someone to be like that all
the time, to have everyone who's ever had an interaction
(16:14):
with you, to just feel seen and heard while also
like embraced and almost hugged in a way, even if
he wasn't doing that physically, I doubt that the people
in my life would say that I'm like that, you know,
um uh. But what gets in my way? You know?
(16:39):
I guess that I think, um, probably cynicism, you know.
I think I've struggled a lot with this question of like,
what is like just unconditional love and how do you
practice that even with with everybody. Yeah. So I'm working
on a podcast right now about my relationship with one
of the world's most wanted terrorist. And I had a
(17:02):
connection with this guy who was wanted by you know,
everyone in the world pretty much, the CIA, the State's Department,
the FBI, the African Union. He had a five million
dollar bounty on his head and I was the only
one I knew where he was. And he would call
me in the middle of the night just to chat
because he just wanted to connect with another human being
towards the end, and while he was hoping I could
(17:22):
help keep him alive. When I couldn't do that, we
would just talk and it started just a great scoop
for me. But then came this person that I couldn't
help but start caring about. And that gets really confusing,
you know, especially when it's somebody that has done terrible things,
(17:43):
you know, or supposedly done terrible things, or that's supposed
to be an enemy, or somebody that you hate, or
somebody that deserves to be killed. UM. And I find
all human beings, UM people, everyone you know is worthy
(18:04):
of being listened to and being and spoken to. It
doesn't mean taking all their b s. It doesn't mean,
like you know, set yourself up to be abused or
or or taken advantage of. UM. But I think everyone,
all any of us, just want us to be loved
and to be heard and to be seen and UM,
(18:25):
and I think that your presence is the greatest gift
you can give somebody. I just think that's what I believe.
It is just actually learning how to be genuinely present,
Like in that moment that he came down and sat
and just like looked me in the eye, asked me
genuine question and then just don't feel like he felt
he needed to be anywhere else. That's presence. And I
(18:48):
feel like when you can give that to another human,
that's the best gift you can give somebody. And I
think what keeps us and the second speak myself, what
keeps us from doing that is it's just really hard
to be present, you know. I think that we are
minds are scattered with our wants of what we think
we want, what our desires are, with the ways that
we think we're going to get it, our relationship to
the world, how we think the world perceives us. Um.
(19:10):
We care a lot about a lot of stuff that
usually isn't relevant. And I think that's what gets in
the way. I want to I want to ask you,
um about the world as it currently stands. And like
the last thing he did on television was a public
service announcement after nine eleven m that was the last
(19:33):
time we saw him on TV uh and he died
soon after that. And when I watched that footage, I
often feel like I'm watching a person who has ultimately
been outmatched by just the huge well of capacity of
for badness among people. And when I look at the
world today, it does seem like so much of that
(19:57):
badness has like gained energy and momentum, focus and force
and push. And I wonder, your journalist, your job is
to investigate all, to investigate the human condition via our
individual stories and the stories we pursue. And I wonder,
how do I even frame this question? Do you think
A do you think his impact can be felt? And
(20:21):
B do you think it's enough? God dense question? Um,
I think that it's up to us. Two. I think
(20:43):
it's up to us to allow his impact to be felt.
And what I mean by that is, look, eventually, we
can't be relying on Fred Rogers, especially after he's dead.
We have to be Fred Rogers. I mean, we're grown up,
you know, like I'm about to be forty. I was
(21:04):
watching Mr Rogers a kid. It's time for me to
be Mr Rogers. You know, it's time for all of
us me Mr Rogers especially now. It is crazy because
if we don't, then we we we really are up
Ship's creek, you know, like we we are in at
time right now where people are so cynical and scared
(21:24):
and frankly acting bananas, all of us. Whether you want
to blame the people that are making you bananas or
your bananas or whatever it is, um uh, but I
think we all just need those quiet moments of reflection
and it's our job to embody it. I mean, look,
we can't. That's another reason, like we can't we can't
idealize him either in a sense where like you know,
(21:47):
he's gone. What we have to do is take his
teachings and try to embody those ourselves so so you know,
we can evolve and become one of our our own
version of that love that he was able to embody,
because that is what I think the world could really
use right now. And we can't be looking for a
savior or or I think be just sad over one
(22:10):
like hey, there was one guy that was really good
at this once, Like why go and hang out with
a kid you've never met her? Family, and you know
in Russia, um who's having a tough time because because
you can, because you have the he had the ability to.
(22:35):
Christof still has a photo of that night. There's Fred
on the couch with X the owl, and there's Christoph beaming.
When you genuinely learn how to listen and you're genuinely
interested in somebody just because they're them, not because of
(22:57):
any other reason that I think I got from just
that interaction, I think that's what stayed with me. Screw
Moscow next time. When Fred tells us that we are special,
(23:20):
he meant that there's something deep down inside each of us,
not to some of us, but each of us without
which humanity cannot survive. Finding Fred is produced by Transmitter Media.
Our team is Dan O'donald, Jordan Bailey and Mattie Foley.
Our editor is Sarah Nis. The executive producer for Transmitter
(23:42):
Media is Greta Cohne. Executive producers at Fatherly are Simon
Isaacs and Andrew Berman. Thanks to the team at I
Heart Media, and also thanks to Christoph Putzel. Our show
is mixed by Rick Kwan, music by Blue Dot Sessions
and Alison Layton Brown. If you like what you're hearing,
rate the show, you the show, and tell a friend
I'm Carvel Wallace. Thank you for listening. M hm
Hey, everyone, it's Carvel and before we get into this episode,
I want to ask you a favor. Throughout this series,
we've talked a lot about how Fred Rogers has helped
show us how to make the world a kinder place,
a better place. But now we want to hear from you.
We want to hear a story about when someone in
your life showed you what it means to be a helper.
(00:23):
Maybe it's someone in your family, or someone in your community,
or someone that you haven't seen since you were a kid,
but that you still think about something they did to
help you. Whoever they are, wherever they are, however they're helping,
we want to hear about it. So give us a
call at three three six five one five zero five
to nine. Again, that's three three six five one five
(00:44):
zero five to nine, and tell us a story about
someone who has shown you how to be a helper
and we might just play it on an upcoming episode.
Again that number is three three six five one five
zero five two nine, or you can tweet you're still
with the hashtag finding Fred. Okay, now, let's start the
show about a nash studio that sounds studio. Well, that's
(01:10):
very much like the place we make our television visits.
It's and Mr Rogers is in Moscow. Here would you
like to play? Of course I would. I'd love to
touch a piano wherever I go. My neighbor by, the
(01:46):
Soviet Union had just begun opening up dialogue with the US,
and that somehow landed Mr Rogers on the set of
good Night, Little Ones, the USSRS longest running children's program.
Back then, there was no television except for one channel
that was played on in Russian, which I couldn't understand,
mostly the news propaganda, and then there was a childhood
(02:08):
program that played at night that I also couldn't understand.
Kristof Putzel was an American kid living in Moscow at
the time. Both my parents were journalists. They were assigned
to cover what ended up being the collapse of the
Soviet Union. My parents job was to make sense of
(02:28):
a place that didn't make a lot of sense, where
information was controlled. Kristof's father was the bureau chief for
the Associated Press. His mother was the deputy bureau chief
for Time magazine. They moved to Moscow in and took
seven year old Kristof and his sister along with them.
My parents had told me that the biggest toy store
in the entire Soviet Union was across the street from
(02:51):
our house. This was the way they tempted me to
go there and greeted this whole thing as a seven
year old. And let me tell you, it was the
first time ever gone to a toy storey. Anyway, it's
nothing I wanted to buy, because there was nothing on
the shelves. Um, there was I think shoes, some clothes,
and a couple of tin toy things and some really
complicated models that I think we're for adults. And that
(03:14):
was it. That's the biggest toy store. Seven. It's nothing
I wanted. I'm Carlo Wallace and this is Finding Fred,
a podcast about Fred Rogers from I Heart Media and
Fatherly and partnership with Transmitter Media. We often talk about
(03:41):
how adaptable kids are, but Kristoff says, the move to
Moscow was really hard. Frankly, I was pretty depressed. Um,
you just have to understand just how hard Russia was
in the eighties, especially for a kid, you know, it
being so cold, dark, no access to stuff. Um. Sometimes
(04:03):
friends would record like tapes, the cassette tapes and then
mail them and I would listen to their voices. We
didn't live in an embassy. We lived in a square
foot apartment. My mom, my dad, my sister, myself, and
our Golden retriever, only golden retriever in the entire civic union.
People thought that it was a lion. Our apartment was
bugged because the KGB always kept a close eye on them,
(04:26):
and they would follow us anytime we were going outside
of the city. They would constantly try to attempt to
set up my parents to see if they were actually spies,
and always monitored whatever stories they're working on. There was
always somebody watching and nothing to watch on TV, no
familiar cultural touchstones like Sesame Street or three to one contact.
(04:51):
So I would watch the same VHS tapes over and
over and over again that people would mail from the US.
They just tape whatever was on TV and mail it.
We'd get it three, four or five months later, if
we got it at all. And those were like gold
I like you, Yes, I do, I like you. And
(05:15):
on a few of those precious VHS tapes were old
episodes of Mr Rogers Neighborhood. Certainly do I'm glad you
were with me on my swing. So Mr Rogers in
Moscow was big news, and Christoph's parents managed to get
word to Fred telling him about their depressed kid. And
(05:37):
for Fred Rogers, a note about a sad child was
like the bat signal. There was one day when my
parents told me to make sure I was home for dinner,
which I always was, but I remember being weird. They're like,
now there's a special dinner tonight. I just remember a
knock on the door and I'd sort of gotten used
(05:58):
to being let down by surprise as of them trying
to like cheer us up in communist Moscow, you know.
And I opened the door and there's Mr Rodgers in
his card again and the blue shoes, and my jaw
apparently just dropped. I remember just being awe struck. I
didn't understand why Mr Rogers was at my door. I
(06:20):
grew up watching Mr Rogers. I knew every character. I
knew I've probably had seen every episode at least for
that time frame. Um, And so there I was, and
he walks in the door, and he gets down to
my eye level and shakes my hand and introduces himself
as Fred Rogers and asked what my name was. And
(06:41):
I don't even know if I could get the words
out of my mouth because Mr Rodgers in the apartment,
and um, it was just him on his own and
just by himself. I think it was the first time
in my life where I felt seen by an adult,
(07:08):
like when he got down to my eye level, introduced
himself and looked me in the eye. Of course I've
had adults introduced themselves to me a million times up
to that point and asked me what my name was,
But the way that he looked at me, I felt
like you saw me. Then he came into the living
(07:31):
room and we sat down and he opened up his suitcase.
He had a suitcase with him. I feel like it
was a briefcase, but it must have been bigger than that. Um.
And he opens it up and they're all the puppets
I had never put together that Mr Rodgers did the
voices I had didn't And so suddenly they were talking
(07:52):
and I had King Friday and um and actually owl
in my on my couch. This is a real moment
for a child, you know. And UM, I think what
just really struck me about it was how normal it felt.
I mean, not normal, what's the word. UM, It's while
(08:12):
it felt surreal, it felt like I was in I
was in the Land of make Believe. Suddenly my couch
suddenly turned into that in my apartment, and um, it
was just like the show. I mean, he was wearing
the same stuff. This isn't a like since it set.
It wasn't like backstage he was. He had the cardigan
(08:35):
on and the blue shoes. Like, I mean, first of all,
I'm just really struck by the kind of person you
have to be, the kind of self possession you have
to have to just walk into some strangers houses and
spend the evening with them, like we don't, like, we
don't know. I don't know how to do that. I'm like, like,
ostensibly my job is to be charismatic in public, and
(08:58):
I still don't don't know if I would know how
to just go into someone's house with nothing but myself
and his suitcase of puppets to spend the evening with
them and their family. I have kids, and oftentimes I
think about the ways in which illusions are created for
(09:18):
them and also shattered for them. And so it's a
tailor as old as time that like the kid has
someone that they they have idolized and television, then they
meet them and then the person is not who they
thought they were, and they're crushed. And you had the
opposite experience. You you sort of thought this guy was fine,
and then you meet him and you find out that
he's exactly who as good as he says he is.
But I wonder if you ever felt let down. Later,
(09:43):
mom one time took me to the set of Sesame
Street because she was working on a story for Time magazine.
And I went and I was horrified because Big Bird
was walking around without the top, you know, just the legs,
and the muppets were all like, you know, like lying
there corpses, and and they'd warned my mom, they said,
you know, credit, they said, we don't usually encourage children
(10:05):
to come here. And it was a little jarring. Um.
But that wasn't the case with Mr Rodgers. More from
Kristoff in just a moment, Mr Rogers visit has stuck
(10:37):
with Christop. It's not just that Mr Rogers got down
on one knee and looked him in the eye, or
that he got to play with King Friday and X
the Owl. It's the kindness of Mr Rogers, the effort
Fred made in the midst of a busy trip to
help a kid like I mean, just think about this
for a second. He when all the way across town
(11:01):
in a city he didn't know, which is a hard
place to get around, to meet a family that he
didn't know, just because he heard that there were some
kids that were kind of having a tough time. So
why do you think he did that. It's a really
good question. I think that he heard that there were
some kids that, uh grew up watching the show and
(11:25):
we're having I think a tough time. There wasn't a
whole lot of stuff to look forward to, and then
it would be amazing if he would meet them, and
he apparently just jumped at the opportunity. And so of course,
you know, um, you can imagine a number of people
that might want to meet Fred Rodgers or I don't know,
maybe no one asked him. Yeah, he just came and
did it. And he spent real time. He like sat
on the couch and did a whole puppet show and
(11:48):
I played with them, like I got to hold I
mean that was crazy. I mean I got to hold
the king and the owl and the cat and like like.
And then he had dinner with us and then we
drove him back to the mayor an embassy where he
was staying, and so I sat in the back seat
of our station wagon. It was one of the only
subarus in the entire Soviet Union, and we sat in
(12:09):
the backseat and I just sat there with Mr Rogers
as we drove him across town and drove him to
the front of marrin Amazon Oh. And he was asking
questions because he didn't know anything about Moscow. So when
we're driving, he was asking questions about what's this, what's this?
I knew the answers like. I was like, oh, that's
um you know, that's the monument to your your gagar
And he was like, oh, that's interesting. Or do you
(12:29):
like space? I was like, yeah, I like space. I
remember just wanting, like always fantasizing about friends coming so
I could tell them about what this place was like.
And I'd be like, I know this looks weird, but
look at this. This is you know, look, yes, it's
normal to see like an entire army going down the street,
you know, like, oh yeah, we see tanks all the time.
Oh yeah, they parade these missiles around constantly. Like I
(12:51):
know it looks nuts, but that's what life is here.
And it never happened, because no one ever came to visit.
And I got to give that to to Mr Rodgers.
He must have known that just by him being there
this was had suddenly transformed Moscow, a place that I
hated as a child, into the most magical place I've
(13:13):
ever been. And then got to ride through Moscow with
Mr Rogers and point out all this stuff. I mean,
I still look back at that, it's like it was
just magical when I was a kid. As odd as
it sounds, I did the exact same thing. I imagined
(13:34):
Ricky Ricardo, for some reason, time traveling from the nineteen
fifties to my childhood in the eighties and letting me
explain everything to him Walkman and pac Man and Prince.
I think now that that was a cure for a
kind of loneliness that I felt. That Kristof felt that
(13:54):
maybe a lot of kids feel this world is so
big and some many things are happening to us all
the time. We feel sometimes like we're little helpless creatures
in the midst of all of it. So maybe it's
just really nice to think that there's someone somewhere who
cares what you like. Specifically, you are seeing and experiencing
(14:19):
That's the gift that Fred Rogers gave to Christophe that night,
and maybe that's the gift he gave to all of us.
You know. I have this really, this weird question that's
been on my mind. Was I think a lot about
good people and what makes a good person, and so
much of what Fred Rogers was about was about ways
and systems and methods for being a good person. And
(14:43):
I I keep returning to wise and everyone like that.
I want to ask you, first, do you think of
yourself as a good person? I do, but I think
it's taken a lot of time and struggle and experiences
with not always being in the best person, interactions with
not always the best people, but then also the experience
(15:07):
of having genuine connection uh and experiences with people that
consider really good. And I think that has helped me
become a better person and someone I'm still trying to
be um because I guess I wonder. I mean, I
I have this obvious question, which is, why isn't everyone
like Fred Rogers like why? Why? Like I assume that
(15:29):
you don't think of yourself was being capable of being
what he was or doing what he does, not I
guess I want to know what you feel like in
your own life stands in your way. It's a really
good question. I don't know, you know, like why I
(15:52):
think that I just might not have the patience that
he had for people, you know, I think just the
um at least not always, you know. I think I
have my moments, and I've certainly been inspired by him
and this memory, and I love what I do for
a living. But for someone to be like that all
the time, to have everyone who's ever had an interaction
(16:14):
with you, to just feel seen and heard while also
like embraced and almost hugged in a way, even if
he wasn't doing that physically, I doubt that the people
in my life would say that I'm like that, you know,
um uh. But what gets in my way? You know?
(16:39):
I guess that I think, um, probably cynicism, you know.
I think I've struggled a lot with this question of like,
what is like just unconditional love and how do you
practice that even with with everybody. Yeah. So I'm working
on a podcast right now about my relationship with one
of the world's most wanted terrorist. And I had a
(17:02):
connection with this guy who was wanted by you know,
everyone in the world pretty much, the CIA, the State's Department,
the FBI, the African Union. He had a five million
dollar bounty on his head and I was the only
one I knew where he was. And he would call
me in the middle of the night just to chat
because he just wanted to connect with another human being
towards the end, and while he was hoping I could
(17:22):
help keep him alive. When I couldn't do that, we
would just talk and it started just a great scoop
for me. But then came this person that I couldn't
help but start caring about. And that gets really confusing,
you know, especially when it's somebody that has done terrible things,
(17:43):
you know, or supposedly done terrible things, or that's supposed
to be an enemy, or somebody that you hate, or
somebody that deserves to be killed. UM. And I find
all human beings, UM people, everyone you know is worthy
(18:04):
of being listened to and being and spoken to. It
doesn't mean taking all their b s. It doesn't mean,
like you know, set yourself up to be abused or
or or taken advantage of. UM. But I think everyone,
all any of us, just want us to be loved
and to be heard and to be seen and UM,
(18:25):
and I think that your presence is the greatest gift
you can give somebody. I just think that's what I believe.
It is just actually learning how to be genuinely present,
Like in that moment that he came down and sat
and just like looked me in the eye, asked me
genuine question and then just don't feel like he felt
he needed to be anywhere else. That's presence. And I
(18:48):
feel like when you can give that to another human,
that's the best gift you can give somebody. And I
think what keeps us and the second speak myself, what
keeps us from doing that is it's just really hard
to be present, you know. I think that we are
minds are scattered with our wants of what we think
we want, what our desires are, with the ways that
we think we're going to get it, our relationship to
the world, how we think the world perceives us. Um.
(19:10):
We care a lot about a lot of stuff that
usually isn't relevant. And I think that's what gets in
the way. I want to I want to ask you,
um about the world as it currently stands. And like
the last thing he did on television was a public
service announcement after nine eleven m that was the last
(19:33):
time we saw him on TV uh and he died
soon after that. And when I watched that footage, I
often feel like I'm watching a person who has ultimately
been outmatched by just the huge well of capacity of
for badness among people. And when I look at the
world today, it does seem like so much of that
(19:57):
badness has like gained energy and momentum, focus and force
and push. And I wonder, your journalist, your job is
to investigate all, to investigate the human condition via our
individual stories and the stories we pursue. And I wonder,
how do I even frame this question? Do you think
A do you think his impact can be felt? And
(20:21):
B do you think it's enough? God dense question? Um,
I think that it's up to us. Two. I think
(20:43):
it's up to us to allow his impact to be felt.
And what I mean by that is, look, eventually, we
can't be relying on Fred Rogers, especially after he's dead.
We have to be Fred Rogers. I mean, we're grown up,
you know, like I'm about to be forty. I was
(21:04):
watching Mr Rogers a kid. It's time for me to
be Mr Rogers. You know, it's time for all of
us me Mr Rogers especially now. It is crazy because
if we don't, then we we we really are up
Ship's creek, you know, like we we are in at
time right now where people are so cynical and scared
(21:24):
and frankly acting bananas, all of us. Whether you want
to blame the people that are making you bananas or
your bananas or whatever it is, um uh, but I
think we all just need those quiet moments of reflection
and it's our job to embody it. I mean, look,
we can't. That's another reason, like we can't we can't
idealize him either in a sense where like you know,
(21:47):
he's gone. What we have to do is take his
teachings and try to embody those ourselves so so you know,
we can evolve and become one of our our own
version of that love that he was able to embody,
because that is what I think the world could really
use right now. And we can't be looking for a
savior or or I think be just sad over one
(22:10):
like hey, there was one guy that was really good
at this once, Like why go and hang out with
a kid you've never met her? Family, and you know
in Russia, um who's having a tough time because because
you can, because you have the he had the ability to.
(22:35):
Christof still has a photo of that night. There's Fred
on the couch with X the owl, and there's Christoph beaming.
When you genuinely learn how to listen and you're genuinely
interested in somebody just because they're them, not because of
(22:57):
any other reason that I think I got from just
that interaction, I think that's what stayed with me. Screw
Moscow next time. When Fred tells us that we are special,
(23:20):
he meant that there's something deep down inside each of us,
not to some of us, but each of us without
which humanity cannot survive. Finding Fred is produced by Transmitter Media.
Our team is Dan O'donald, Jordan Bailey and Mattie Foley.
Our editor is Sarah Nis. The executive producer for Transmitter
(23:42):
Media is Greta Cohne. Executive producers at Fatherly are Simon
Isaacs and Andrew Berman. Thanks to the team at I
Heart Media, and also thanks to Christoph Putzel. Our show
is mixed by Rick Kwan, music by Blue Dot Sessions
and Alison Layton Brown. If you like what you're hearing,
rate the show, you the show, and tell a friend
I'm Carvel Wallace. Thank you for listening. M hm
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