July 24, 2025 • 38 mins
On the evening of February 25, 2020, Harriett Jefferson became alarmed as her son, Reggie Payne, lapsed into a bad diabetic reaction. He hadn’t eaten all day and had sat through four hours of dialysis. Now, he was acting strange. Wobbling back and forth. Speaking incoherently. Harriett was growing increasingly concerned. She needed help. So, she did what a lot of people in her situation would: She dialed 911.
Just four months earlier, Reggie had had a similar episode. Harriett had called 911 then and paramedics arrived at the home and helped him replenish his glucose levels. They were professional and courteous, and Reggie was fine after that. There was no reason to think this call would go any differently.
This time, however, things would go differently. In fact, things would go stunningly, irreversibly, tragically wrong. Reggie would end up on the floor of the home, face down, hands cuffed behind his back, pleading to breathe.
This podcast episode contains discussions of police brutality and features audio of traumatic events. Listener discretion is advised.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast episode contains discussions of police brutality and features
audio of traumatic events. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Nine one one. What is the location of the American
I'm calling because my son is acting hulirious. I think
his blood sugars are wet. Let me get medical up
on the phone. But what's your address.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
In the evening of February twenty fifth, twenty twenty, Harriet
Jefferson became alarmed as her son, Reggie Pain, lapsed into
a bad diabetic reaction. He hadn't eaten all day and
it sat through four hours of dialysis. Now he was
acting strange, wobbling back and forth, speaking incoherently. Harriet was
(00:41):
growing increasingly concerned. She needed help, so she did what
a lot of people in her situation would.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
She diwed nine to one one.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
She was fine, and then all of a sudden, seem
I can hear yelling in the nameral, but I don't know. Yeah,
I mean, can you tell me what happened? In She
saw at it, flailing his arms around and talking. We
all didn't really understand him, you know, I'd like to
be stored it.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Just four months earlier, Reggie had had a similar episode.
Harriet had called nine to one one then, and paramedics
arrived at the home and helped replenish his glucose levels.
They were professional and courteous, and Reggie was fine after that.
There was no reason to think this call would go
any differently.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
That is him, I hear in the background. Till he
is a way, Yes it is he. If he completely alert,
yes he is. And this is not normal to behavior, Karanity,
that's through it.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
This time, however, things would go differently. In fact, things
would go stunningly, irreversibly, tragically wrong. Reggie would end up
on the floor of the home, face down, handscuff behind
his back, pleading to breathe. He would lose consciousness and
be rushed to a hospital, his life suddenly in the
(02:00):
hands of emergency room physicians. But how exactly did we
get here? How did Reggie end up restrained in the
prone position in his parents' home when his mom just
needed help with his blood sugar And how did five
firefighters and three police officers, all of them white, end
(02:20):
up responding to a call in one of Sacramento's most
predominantly black neighborhoods.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
We're going to dig into all of this, But to
truly understand what happened at Reggie's house that night, we
need to peel back a few layers of Sacramento's history
and recent events to learn how and wide the city
responds to certain calls the way it does.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Then we're going to follow the first responders into Reggie's
home that fateful night as they answered an otherwise routine
medical call.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
This is Finding Sexy Sweat, a podcast where me Rick
Jervis and my colleague Jeff Pearlman attempt to retrace the
life of our four former friend and fellow journalist Reggie.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Paine, better known by his rap name Sexy Sweat.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
To try to learn how our paths differed so sharply
and why Reggie met such an untimely death after a
medical call to his parents' home in Sacramento. This is
episode six Rodeo Star.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
It's funny because I think people across the country view
California as his big blue progressive state, and I mean,
in many ways it is, and with some exceptions it's
pretty liberal. But like just about everywhere else across the country,
California has experienced its share of racial struggles. Today, more
than half of California's thirty nine million residents or people
(03:44):
of color, but from its earliest days, California's had a
history of brutal, sometimes bloody treatment of minorities.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
As gold was discovered in the foothills of the Sierra
Nevada in the eighteen forties, just before the Treaty of
Guadalupe made California part of the United States, a hefty
miners tax was imposed on miners of color, including Mexicans
and Indians, though no such tax was levied against those
of European descent. Though California entered the Union as a
free state, its black residents suffered severe discrimination in housing, jobs, schools,
(04:18):
and unions, and wouldsow for decades.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
The city of Sacramento is no exception. Black people began
streaming into the area during the gold rush, either by
free will or as enslaved persons. Scores of fugitive slaves
were rounded up in Sacramento and sold back to their
white masters. In the nineteen twenties, the Ku Klux Klan
held meetings around Sacramento and established a local chapter there.
(04:44):
The clan donated to local Presbyterian churches and infiltrated local
government offices the group targeted both Chinese migrants and black residents.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Lynchings and racial violence spiked.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
A few decades later, the NAA opened an office in
Sacramento to combat racial discrimination, and in the nineteen sixties
another force blew into town, the Black Panther Party. Alongside
its militant reputation, the Black Panthers adopted a doctrine of
self help, providing essential services such as youth breakfast programs
(05:18):
and health clinics, as well as self defense of police brutality.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
On May second, nineteen sixty seven, the party stamped its
presence in Sacramento when a group of about thirty Panthers
armed with pistols, rifles, and shotguns, marched onto the floor
of the Assembly chambers of the state Capitol Building to
protest passage of the Moford Act, a bill that would
prohibit the open carry of firearms on city streets. It
(05:43):
was a direct response to the Panthers, who were effectively
using rights under the Second Amendment to carry weapons and
monitor police.
Speaker 5 (05:51):
The black people, in particular, take full note of the
racist California legislature, which is now considering legislation aimed at
keeping the black people disarmed and powerless at the very
same time that racist police agencies throughout the country are
intensifying the terror, brutality, murder, and repression of black people.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
The Molford Act passed, but the message was clear. Black
residents weren't going to be pushed around. Sacramento didn't have
the level of overt racial discord of cities like Birmingham
or Detroit, but it wasn't completely harmonious either. Even as
discriminatory laws were abolished and civil rights flourished in Northern California.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
Challenges remained.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Police and fire department struggle to hire more recruits to
reflect its community's diversity. In twenty ten, Sacramento was thirty
seven percent white, twelve percent Black, and thirty percent Hispanic.
More than one out of every four Sacramento area residents
spoke a language other than English at home, but its
police department didn't reflect the city's demographics. It was sixty
(06:57):
six percent white, only six percent black, and only fourteen
percent Hispanic, and the fire department was even more disproportionate,
seventy one percent white, three percent black, and thirteen percent Hispanic.
Speaker 4 (07:11):
Decades of redlining, under investment in minority neighborhoods and a
general marginalization of people of color, coupled with gang violence
and the crack epidemic, laid the groundwork for racial disharmony.
Those tensions would rush to the surface on July eleventh,
twenty sixteen, when Sacramento police got a call concerning a
man walking along city streets wielding a knife.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
The shooting death of Michael Brown, an unarmed black eighteen
year old who was shot and killed by police in Ferguson, Missouri,
in twenty fourteen, thrust police brutality into the national consciousness.
Protests spawned across the country, and Sacramento's activists were also galvanized.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
Rallies spread across the city. Protesters took to the street
and disrupted meetings at city Hall. Here's very Axious, a
longtime community activist in Sacramento who led some of the protests.
Speaker 6 (08:09):
I think people were so shocked at what was happening
at Saint Louis, so I told that there were would
like incident away from being just like Saint Louis. And
it's not lost.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
Guess years.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Protesters needed just one incident to really set the spark
in Sacramento. They got it on the afternoon of July eleventh,
twenty sixteen, when Sacramento police received a call of a
man walking through a neighborhood north of downtown with a
knife and possibly a gun.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
The guy across the street a gun a knife.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Police arrived to find Joseph Mann, a fifty one year old,
mentally ill and unhoused black man, weaving between cars, acting erratically,
and waving a four inch knife.
Speaker 4 (08:55):
Police trailed them in their cruisers for several blocks and
ordered him to put the knife down and get on
the ground. Man ignored the orders, even throwing an empty
thermist bottle at police as he staggered along Del Passel Boulevard.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Two police officers and a cruiser attempted to hit Man
with their card.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
In a dash can video later released, the driver could
be heard saying, fuck this guy, I'm going to hit him.
Speaker 4 (09:33):
The officers finally exited the vehicle, cornered Man in front
of a storefront building and open fire.
Speaker 6 (09:46):
The god fire started down and.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
They fired eighteen rounds, hitting Man with fourteen of them.
He died at the scene. No gun was found on him.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
One of the officers was fired from the department, and
the other left to claim disability. No criminal charges were
filed against either one.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
The shooting sparked protests and prompted changes in Sacramento police's
use of forest policy, including requiring police to quickly release
body cam footage very axious, the community activist led some
of those protests.
Speaker 6 (10:23):
Once upon a time, before we put energy to it,
a police incident would just be a not even a headline,
it would even be a story. It would just be like, well,
that was a bad guy. It didn't even seem like
there was anything wrong. And even in the Joseph bad case,
I think that's what kind of really opened the eyes, like,
(10:43):
oh wait, we have a bigger problem here in Sacramento,
just like everywhere else, like where'e Gifford.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
The Joseph Mann shooting, unfortunately, was only the beginning. A
few years later, on the night of March eighteenth, twenty eighteen,
Sacramento police answered a call of someone breaking into cars
and followed twenty two year old Stefan Clark into his
grandmother's backyard. He was shot eight times, including six in
the back.
Speaker 4 (11:09):
Police said they thought a cell phone he was holding
was a weapon. No gun was found again. The officers
weren't charged with a crime.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
For stephon a love the court right hyay.
Speaker 4 (11:22):
This time, huge protests followed.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Unlike the shooting death of Joseph Mann, who was unhoused
with few family relations, Stefan Clark was young, with very
vocal family members and friends, who shooting sparked massive protests
across Sacramento. Sit In protests closed down the local mall.
Dozens were arrested when they marched through an affluent neighborhood.
(11:52):
Twice protesters surrounded the Golden One Center NBA arena and
locked arms, blocking fans of the Sacramento Kings entering the games.
Speaker 6 (12:01):
No justice, no right down, no d chanting time bomb
because the reaction how we responded, the preparation for a
lot of usalls a brown because we knew this bubble,
what's gonna happen. So in our mind we were just like,
(12:24):
we just need a moment where we really get just
take the city down.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
Pent Up frustration from the Joseph manshooting just a few
years earlier, coupled with a wave of national awareness of
police brutality, created a tinderbox situation in Sacramento.
Speaker 6 (12:41):
And so like every major city had its moments right,
San Francisco had that moment Oakland had their moments. Saint
Louis had a moment, You had New York's having a moment.
It seems like you go through the path, but like, Okay,
don exist time. It was our time, and it the
whole volcano erupted.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
A Sacramento twenty twenty. Protests against police had largely quieted,
but city leaders remained on edge. Ratio animosity and police
distrust simmered just beneath the surface. City leaders had gotten
a first hand look at the frustration sweeping the nation
and how quickly potentially violent outbursts could spark in their
(13:19):
own backyard.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
Little did they know they were about to face one
of their biggest challenges yet. February twenty fifth, twenty twenty,
began with the makings of a good day for Reggie.
He woke up, ate a bowl of shredded wheat, showered,
and got ready to head two dialysis, which he was
now doing regularly. His mom, Harriet, drove him on the
(13:44):
ride there. They stopped at a Taco bell and picked
up a Mexican pizza that Reggie could eat for lunch
while hooked up to the machine. She then dropped him
off at the center at noon for a four hour recession.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Dialysis flushes all the extra fluid and waste from the
body system, a task that Reggie's disease kidneys increasingly could
not perform on their own, but it can also fluctuate
blood sugar levels.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
As a result.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
In the aftermath, people are often drained of energy and
eager for the nearest bed. But when Harriet picked up
Reggie around four pm, he seemed totally fine. In fact,
he was talking on the phone with a cousin.
Speaker 7 (14:23):
Reggie's the person that any cousin, anybody you can call
rich when he's good, and he was good that day.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
They drove home and Harriet headed to the kitchen to
start cooking dinner, while Reggie went to his room to
fiddle with his computer. No one is quite sure what
exactly happened, but something with the computer didn't work, and
Reggie was triggered. He called out to his mom, then
slammed the laptop's shut. It all started to hit Harriet
something was not right with her son. She then peeked
(14:54):
into Reggie's backpack and saw the taco bell Mexican pizza.
It was untouched.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Alarm bells ring in Harriet's mind Reggie hadn't eaten anything
all day, except for able of shredded wheat in the morning.
This was dangerous territory for someone sitting through a day
of dialysis. The procedure physically batters and drains a person.
It wipes them out. It also lowers blood sugar. Now
(15:21):
Reggie was stomping around and blurting things incoherently. He chomped
outside to the backyard patio, laid down in the grass,
rose came back inside. Harriet had been through this before.
She knew precisely what to chalk this up to blood sugar.
She made Reggie eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich
(15:43):
and drink some water mixed with sugar. That calmed him
down a bit, but he was still behaving erratically. So,
just as she'd done four months earlier, she dialed nine
to one one.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
She thought he was having a low blood sugar issue
which was making him act that way. Yes, had happened
to him before, and look made same. E gave him
right now, ma'am, was the same thing, And I did,
and we did before I get him to eat something.
I got him to eat a half a peanut Buddy daily.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Sandwards Harry didn't trust the police or fire departments. She'd
been through too many instances, seen too many things that
made her deeply mistrust both agencies. But the last experience
was a positive one, and her son was clearly struggling.
These would likely be the same paramedics who had shown
up in November to help stabilize Reggie's gluecose levels. They
(16:38):
had helped her son before. Really, there was no reason
for her to think this time would be any different.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Do you think he's going to be combative with the
fire department? I don't think so. I thank you before
when they came, they got him the sugar and cooperate
with him. Okay, Well, every degree her, every time different.
I just have to ask you, yeah, okay, right now,
right now he's huggin the She's like that, Violet Harriet.
Speaker 8 (17:11):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
The call in the evening of February twenty fifth, twenty
twenty came into Sacramento Fire Station twelve, located a few
blocks away the station mobilized fire Engine twelve, driven by
Engineer Eric Munson and carrying Scott Caravallo, a firefighter and
licensed paramedic, and Captain Jeffrey Klein. The highest ranking fire
official on the call. It also deployed in Medic twelve,
(17:35):
an ambulance driven by Clint Simons and carrying Sean Holman,
a firefighter and licensed paramedic, as well as Joshua Williams,
a student at Sacramento State University doing a ride along
that night. Six total people, all of them white, with
a combined fifty plus years of experience, would answer the call.
Speaker 4 (17:57):
We asked the City of Sacramento, including the police and
fire departments, for comment, but the city declined to provide
anyone to be interviewed for this podcast.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
We also reached out to all the firefighters and police
officers who responded to Reggie's call that night.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Those we were able to reach refuse to speak to us.
All except one.
Speaker 4 (18:17):
Could you tell me, just for the sake of recording
your full name and age.
Speaker 8 (18:21):
Eric Munton, fifty two years old, tell me again when
you started with Sacramento Fire Department September eleventh, nineteen ninety five.
Speaker 9 (18:30):
And what was your actual position or rank February.
Speaker 8 (18:33):
Of twenty twenty. I was an engineer.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
That's Eric Munson. He retired recently from the Sacramento Fire
Department after more than a quarter century with the agency.
On the night of February twenty fifth, twenty twenty, he
was the engineer who drove Engine twelve the short distance
to Reggie's parents home and was tasked with carrying equipment
between the truck and the home when they got there.
(18:58):
Munson said, they were at the station when they receive
what was a quote medical call just a few blocks away.
When they got there, Harry greeted them and told them
Reggie was having a diabetic episode and explained his medical history.
Speaker 8 (19:12):
And as she's telling us the stories, she's walking us
to the back room where mister Payne is sitting on
the left side of the couches. We're facing the couch
and his father is sitting on the arm of the
right side of the couch. As we walk into the room.
Speaker 4 (19:27):
As they approached Reggie to tell them that they were
there to help him, Munson said, Reggie became belligerent.
Speaker 8 (19:34):
Mister Payne went from what I would say zero to
one hundred pretty darn quick. Became verbally abusive to EMS crews, swearing, yelling.
I believe he spit at us once or twice, flailing
arms and legs at times, being very poignant about who
(19:58):
he's talking about, who he's directing his aggression at.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
But Munson leaves out in important detail and we're not
saying he's deliberately doing so. But according to Harriet and Rufus,
Reggie held out his hand to greet the firefighters as
they approached, only they initially wouldn't shake it.
Speaker 7 (20:18):
By this time, Reggie is sitting on the couch. He'
say hello, I'm Reggie.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
He puts his.
Speaker 7 (20:23):
Hand out to a fire about paramedic, firefighteror whatever he was,
and the guy just looks at Rich standing up over him,
just looked at him. I said he was not going
to shake his hand. Reggie's hand was out.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Reggie, his glucose levels plummeting, paranoia clouding his mind, perceived
that as a lack of respect. That, more than anything else,
triggered him.
Speaker 7 (20:47):
I'm like, shake his hand, and then he shakes Reggie's hand.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Harriet also strongly denied Reggie ever spat on anyone.
Speaker 4 (20:56):
I asked Munson about the handshake thing, because it seemed
pretty vittal to all of this, but he didn't remember
seeing it. One of the paramedics, Clint Simons, later recalled
in a deposition that He did try to shake Reggie's hand,
but Reggie was the one who pulled away. Firefighters also
later said Reggie exposed himself to the fire crew, something
(21:18):
the family strongly denied. Whatever the reason, Reggie became agitated,
yelling incoherently and flailing around. Kleine made the decision to
pull his firefighters out of the home. He then called
police for backup.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Trel four one and Trels four two. I need to
pull you to start for a nine four y five
for the forty eight year old diabetics who's uncooperative.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
At seven forty seven pm, Dispatch directed Sacramento Police officers
David Mauer and John Helmick to the scene, as well
as officer Kevin Mormon. Mormon and Helmick had been on
the force for less than a year, Mauer for just
thirty two months. Unlike the veteran firefighters and paramedics on
the scene, the three police officers, also all white, had
(22:02):
just four years combined experience. Mormon arrived on the scene
first and met with the firefighters.
Speaker 9 (22:09):
Exactly, he's in the back. We just need you to
get him cuffed for stranger talk down so we can
check his blood sugar and fix him.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
That's audio from offers of Mormon's bodycam footage, which was
released by the city in the weeks following the incident.
Remember the case of Joseph Mann, the unhoused man shot
and killed by police. That incident led to the quick
release of this bodycam footage. In it, you hear Mormon
approach the fire crew, who fill him in on the situation.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
He's a big boy.
Speaker 7 (22:38):
That's why we called you.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
Immobile, So it's a little bit muffled.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
The caraval of the firefighter warns Mormon that Reggie's a
quote big boy, a phrase of Mormon repeats more clearly,
and Klein estimates Reggie Wade close to three hundred and
fifty pounds and towers that maybe six six or six
foot seven. Now, having a white person of authority called
black man boy carries all sorts of negative and racist connotations.
(23:10):
But in this case, let's give Caravallo the benefit of
the doubt for a minute. Maybe he calls men of
all races boy, but let's remove all that. It's not
even factually accurate. At the time of his death, Reggie
measured six feet taw and he only weighed two hundred
and twenty pounds. At least two of the firefighters there
that day, Simon's and Holman, weighed more than Reggie. But
(23:34):
a black man under duress seemed to alarm the fire crew,
and that's when they called police.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
When they arrived, the police officers huddled outside the home
and Mormon passed along the faulty information he had received
about Reggie's weight and stature. Mormon admitted he had never
restrained anyone on a medical call before. They then entered
the home.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Who Harriet explained Reggie's low sugar and how she took
him to dialysis earlier that day, and she showed them
the uneaten taco bell pizza. Reggie's running on fumes and
his blood sugar is sinking. In the background, you could
hear Reggie huffing and snorting.
Speaker 8 (24:14):
So I just want to make sure you're you're aware
of what we're gonna be doing.
Speaker 9 (24:17):
We're just gonna get him kind of restrained and some
cuffs so they can test.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Okay, saw you No, We'll let him know so we might.
Speaker 4 (24:29):
We're probably gonna have go hands on, but.
Speaker 10 (24:31):
There's not any crime or anything right now.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
We're just getting them.
Speaker 9 (24:33):
So the fire guys can take a look at him.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
Okay. Myers stresses to Harriet right there that no crime
has been committed. They're just there to hold Reggie so
that the fire crew could treat him. I have to
say the three officers appear calm, collected, even courteous. They've
clearly told Harriet what they plan to do, and their
tone is even helpful. But they honestly don't know what
(24:57):
awaits them in the back room where Reggie is.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
It's also kind of weird if you listen to the
language used there. He says, there's not any crime or
anything right now, emphasis on right now, almost an assumption
that some kind of escalation is coming, which just seems
like a very odd choice.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
Of words, especially because it was a medical call.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
As I entered the back room, Reggie sitting on the
couch and he's really out of sorts. He's making incoherent
grunting noises. He's sliding on and off the couch, his
arms are flailing, he's totally disoriented. The officer's approach, it's
going on, Reggie, you're feeling all right, having some blood shag, Gracious,
(25:42):
you're chilling.
Speaker 4 (25:45):
Mara's bodycam video shows Reggie on the couch, dressed in
a green sweater. The lighting is low and shadowy. Reggie
swings his head back and forth manically. His eyes are
closed and he's mumbling to himself. His face is scrunched
in what appears to be a pained expression. He swipes
a hand across his face. Hey, bud Fire wants to
(26:06):
come look at you, but you're kind of flailing around
all right.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Just then, Reggie slides off the couch and appears to
offer his right hand to Officer Helmet Helmik takes it.
Then the three officers descend on him. They pour his
arms behind his back, slide him to the floor, and
grab his feet. Within seconds, Reggie's hands are cuffed behind
his back in the prone position, while one of the officers, Chris,
(26:32):
crosses his legs and pin them to his torso.
Speaker 4 (26:35):
Reggie seems legitimately surprised. His eyes widened and he cries
out Daddy before he's pinned to the floor.
Speaker 7 (26:45):
Daddy.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Police had been in the home for less than two
minutes and had spoken a total of fifteen words to
Reggie before they had him face down on the floor
and handcuffed.
Speaker 4 (26:56):
The speed by which police put Reggie in handcuffs. Stock Harriet, so.
Speaker 7 (27:01):
Reggie, you gonna let them chuck you?
Speaker 2 (27:03):
No?
Speaker 3 (27:04):
Reggie said no.
Speaker 7 (27:05):
By that time, Reggie said, I don't know. He's looking
at this police officer. Reggie just said oh. After that,
that's all she wrote. They had him down, down, handcuffed,
legs up, shackled, all of that.
Speaker 6 (27:23):
That was it.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
Since you're listening to this on an audio medium, I
think it's important to explain what this scene looks like.
And if you've seen the video of George Floyd with
a cop sort of hanging over him, this isn't that dissimilar.
Reggie's on the ground, his faces down, his arms are
behind him, and it's clearly struggling, and I think there
(27:49):
has to be for him, has to be this moment
where you're like, how did I end up in this position?
Like I haven't committed a crime, I haven't done anything,
and he's just there, basically hog tied, unable to get out.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
It's really to watch. It is really, really, really chilling
and upsetting.
Speaker 4 (28:06):
Once they had Reggie cuffed, the firefighters came back in.
One of them, seeing Reggie pinned to the floor in handcuffs,
asks who's the rodeo star here?
Speaker 3 (28:16):
Who's your rodeo start here?
Speaker 8 (28:17):
The guy in there?
Speaker 2 (28:18):
I think John actually gotta just hop right in there.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
I'm so blown away by this moment, and I've reread
this moment a gazillion times and I still can't get
my head around. So reduces this to something like when
people complain about law enforcement not seeing people as real people,
you know, not seeing the humanity in the moment. To me,
(28:45):
who's the rodeo star here? Just encapsulates that entire thing
that people talk about.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
It is such a callous way of looking at this.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
I just think it's crazy that they're comparing a guy
who needs help to a rodeo animal, and that the
responders are supposed to be the rodeo stars. I don't
even know what words to put on that. It's just
so freaking disturbing to me. So after that happened, Simon's,
the paramedic who drove the ambulance, pricks Reggie's finger and
(29:16):
determines his blood glucose level is at fifty one milligrams
per desolader, dangerously low for a diabetic. Reggie's suffering from
severe hyperglycemia, a condition that can make him disoriented and confused.
As a paramedics work on him, Reggie cries out for
his parents. Reggie says, I can't breathe, followed by mommy
(29:48):
to me. This is the hardest part of the video
to watch, with his glucose levels plummeting and him struggling
to breathe. Reggie's crying out for his mommy and daddy.
Harriet and Rufus are just to a few feet away,
helplessly watching the people they've called to help their son,
still holding out hope that they're going to make him better.
Speaker 4 (30:08):
The actions of the police get confusing here. On the
one hand, they seem to be doing all they can
to comfort Reggie. They're saying things like you're all right, Reggie,
and just checking on you and making sure you're okay.
Their tone is calm, almost tender. One of them even
rubs Reggie's back, trying to calm him, but at the
same time, their hands are constantly on him, armstiff, applying pressure,
(30:32):
even as Reggie's clearly struggling. One of them keeps his
hand in the middle of Reggie's back, pinning him in
that prone position. Reggie's face whips from side to side,
obviously anxious.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
A few months later, the murder of George Floyd at
the hands of police with thrust of the prone position
back into national debate.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
But police have.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Known for decades the risks of holding a suspect in
that position for prolonged periods. Restraining someone faced out isn't
inherently life threatening, but place a hand or a knee
on the person's back while they're down, and their lungs
could compress, and a lethal amount of stress could be
placed on their heart. If the person has pre existing conditions,
(31:12):
such as obesity, hypertension, or mental illness, the risks intensify.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Reggie had all three.
Speaker 4 (31:20):
In Sacramento, police have been trained to be keenly aware
of the risks of restraining someone in the prone position.
At the Sacramento Police Department, General Order five to two
to two point zero two advises that if an officer
even quote suspects that a subject is suffering from any
medical distress, including excited delirium, they should place the subject
(31:42):
into a comfortable position an attempt to keep the subject
calm and still.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Sacramento firefighters follow even stricter rules against keeping people in
the prone position. There's a county document which all fire
Department personnel are expected to follow, and it states in
the section entitled behavioral crisis slash restraint that quote, all
restrained patients will be placed in a sitting, supine, semi fowlers,
(32:10):
or semi sitting position. It goes on to say, flatly
prone or hobble restraints are prohibited in all situations and circumstances.
Speaker 4 (32:20):
Despite all the training, all the warnings, and all the
policies prohibiting it. Minute after minute tick by, with Reggie
handcuffed to face down on the floor of his mother's house, grunting, gurgling,
and wheezing for air, none of the five firefighters or
three policemen there object to it.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Finally, around the eight minute mark of one of the
bodycam videos, Clint Simon's the paramedic, injects Reggie's shoulder with
a shot of glucagon to boost a sugar. Moments later,
Reggie stops moving. He's soundless, motionless, laying face down on
the floor, his hands still cuffed behind his back.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
Go limp.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Someone asks is he asleep?
Speaker 3 (33:08):
Sleep Munth's in. The engineer asks if he's still breathing.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Carvala reaches down and checks Reggie's neck per a pulse, Yeah,
he says, a few of them chuckle nervously. Firefighters then
slipped belcro straps around Reggie's wrist, pull him onto his side,
and hoist him onto a gurney. Nearly eight minutes have
(33:35):
passed from when he was first handcuffed in prone restraint.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
Twenty he was rolled out of that position.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
That is a lifetime for someone with as many pre
existing conditions as Reggie had.
Speaker 4 (33:46):
Harriet became so concerned over her motionless son that you
could hear her ask the paramedics if they had sedated him.
Speaker 9 (33:56):
No, he burnt the available sugar.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
That he had fighting.
Speaker 8 (34:00):
So now he just knouted out who gave him a
medicine called lipagon.
Speaker 4 (34:03):
He's going to turn his extra fat in. He goes
on to tell her he'll be quote right as rain,
as soon as it kicks in. Firefighters decide to transport
him to the hospital for further observation. They wheel Reggie
out of the home and to the waiting ambulance outside.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Only Reggie was not right as rain. He had slipped
into a coma. His vital functions, including the ability to
breathe on his own, were crashing within moments, the routine
medical visit would turn into a Code three emergency.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
As the firefighters worked on Reggie.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Eric Mudson, the engineer who drove Engine twelve to the house,
is in the background of the scrum, observing the scene
and hustling back and forth to the truck every few
minutes for supplies and equipment.
Speaker 8 (34:58):
I accident entered the home three different times, one time
on restock, one time to get soft restraints, and another
time to get the gurney.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
Upon reentering the home after one of his trips, Munson
noticed Reggie had become alarmingly still. He asked the group
whether Reggie was still breathing.
Speaker 8 (35:17):
There was a change in his actions, like he no
longer was actively fighting. He appeared to be still at
that point, which led me to ask, at basically identical
times as the captain, is he breathing.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Munson helped get Reggie on the gurney as others wheeled
him out. He stayed behind to gather equipment, clean up,
discarded wrappers of the glucagon shot, and generally tidy up.
He was one of the last firefighters to leave the
home Before returning to Ends and twelve. He stuck his
head into a side door of the ambulance to see
if they needed anything. He was stunned by what he saw.
(35:56):
Both firefighters Simons and Holman, as well as the ride
along Williams, were hunched over Reggie, pumping his chest and
trying to get oxygen.
Speaker 3 (36:06):
Into his lungs.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
It was a full on CPR emergency. Somewhere between the
home and the ambulance, Reggie had stopped breathing.
Speaker 8 (36:17):
What the fuck did I miss it? Basically, what happened?
What did I not see happening when he was on
the gurney, when as far as I knew, he was alive,
to all of a sudden now being under CPR.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
The seriousness of the situation hit munths in like a
slap to the face. CPR is only done to those
patients close to death, and the outcome is typically not great.
Speaker 8 (36:39):
You're dead. The only reason someone's wailing on your chest
is because your heart no longer is moving. That life's
giving fluid of blood through your body, carrying oxygen to
your stalls.
Speaker 4 (36:51):
The ambulances emergency lights flickered on and it's siren roared
to life. It sped off towards Sutter Medical Center. For
miles away in its rear compartment, Reggie clung to life.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
Somehow a routine medical call turned into a tragedy, a
tragedy that never should have happened.
Speaker 4 (37:19):
Next time, on Finding Sexy Sweat.
Speaker 10 (37:21):
It should have been a routine call. It should have
been about saving Reggie's life. And obviously it went arble wrong,
and it went horribly wrong for predictable and preventable reasons.
Speaker 8 (37:32):
I have never, in my twenty eight years with the
City of sacrament of Fire Department, ever seen an officer
attempt to stop an ambulance crew. Prior to going into
a hospital to get statements.
Speaker 9 (37:47):
Everybody was still on the George Floyd incident and that
just ramped everything up, and I guessed city didn't want
another Floyd type of spotlight on him.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Finding Sexy Sweat is a production of School of Humans
and iHeart Podcasts. This episode was reported, written and hosted
by Jeff Pelman and Rick Jervis. It was produced by
Gabby Watts, with production support from Etily's Perez Zaron Burnett Is.
Our story editor Jesse Niswanger.
Speaker 3 (38:16):
Scored and mixed the episode.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Executive producers are Virginia Prescott, Elsie Crowley and Brandon Barr.
Please leave the show a review that you can follow
along with the show on Instagram at School of Humans.
This podcast episode contains discussions of police brutality and features
audio of traumatic events. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Nine one one. What is the location of the American
I'm calling because my son is acting hulirious. I think
his blood sugars are wet. Let me get medical up
on the phone. But what's your address.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
In the evening of February twenty fifth, twenty twenty, Harriet
Jefferson became alarmed as her son, Reggie Pain, lapsed into
a bad diabetic reaction. He hadn't eaten all day and
it sat through four hours of dialysis. Now he was
acting strange, wobbling back and forth, speaking incoherently. Harriet was
(00:41):
growing increasingly concerned. She needed help, so she did what
a lot of people in her situation would.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
She diwed nine to one one.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
She was fine, and then all of a sudden, seem
I can hear yelling in the nameral, but I don't know. Yeah,
I mean, can you tell me what happened? In She
saw at it, flailing his arms around and talking. We
all didn't really understand him, you know, I'd like to
be stored it.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Just four months earlier, Reggie had had a similar episode.
Harriet had called nine to one one then, and paramedics
arrived at the home and helped replenish his glucose levels.
They were professional and courteous, and Reggie was fine after that.
There was no reason to think this call would go
any differently.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
That is him, I hear in the background. Till he
is a way, Yes it is he. If he completely alert,
yes he is. And this is not normal to behavior, Karanity,
that's through it.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
This time, however, things would go differently. In fact, things
would go stunningly, irreversibly, tragically wrong. Reggie would end up
on the floor of the home, face down, handscuff behind
his back, pleading to breathe. He would lose consciousness and
be rushed to a hospital, his life suddenly in the
(02:00):
hands of emergency room physicians. But how exactly did we
get here? How did Reggie end up restrained in the
prone position in his parents' home when his mom just
needed help with his blood sugar And how did five
firefighters and three police officers, all of them white, end
(02:20):
up responding to a call in one of Sacramento's most
predominantly black neighborhoods.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
We're going to dig into all of this, But to
truly understand what happened at Reggie's house that night, we
need to peel back a few layers of Sacramento's history
and recent events to learn how and wide the city
responds to certain calls the way it does.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Then we're going to follow the first responders into Reggie's
home that fateful night as they answered an otherwise routine
medical call.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
This is Finding Sexy Sweat, a podcast where me Rick
Jervis and my colleague Jeff Pearlman attempt to retrace the
life of our four former friend and fellow journalist Reggie.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Paine, better known by his rap name Sexy Sweat.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
To try to learn how our paths differed so sharply
and why Reggie met such an untimely death after a
medical call to his parents' home in Sacramento. This is
episode six Rodeo Star.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
It's funny because I think people across the country view
California as his big blue progressive state, and I mean,
in many ways it is, and with some exceptions it's
pretty liberal. But like just about everywhere else across the country,
California has experienced its share of racial struggles. Today, more
than half of California's thirty nine million residents or people
(03:44):
of color, but from its earliest days, California's had a
history of brutal, sometimes bloody treatment of minorities.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
As gold was discovered in the foothills of the Sierra
Nevada in the eighteen forties, just before the Treaty of
Guadalupe made California part of the United States, a hefty
miners tax was imposed on miners of color, including Mexicans
and Indians, though no such tax was levied against those
of European descent. Though California entered the Union as a
free state, its black residents suffered severe discrimination in housing, jobs, schools,
(04:18):
and unions, and wouldsow for decades.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
The city of Sacramento is no exception. Black people began
streaming into the area during the gold rush, either by
free will or as enslaved persons. Scores of fugitive slaves
were rounded up in Sacramento and sold back to their
white masters. In the nineteen twenties, the Ku Klux Klan
held meetings around Sacramento and established a local chapter there.
(04:44):
The clan donated to local Presbyterian churches and infiltrated local
government offices the group targeted both Chinese migrants and black residents.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Lynchings and racial violence spiked.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
A few decades later, the NAA opened an office in
Sacramento to combat racial discrimination, and in the nineteen sixties
another force blew into town, the Black Panther Party. Alongside
its militant reputation, the Black Panthers adopted a doctrine of
self help, providing essential services such as youth breakfast programs
(05:18):
and health clinics, as well as self defense of police brutality.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
On May second, nineteen sixty seven, the party stamped its
presence in Sacramento when a group of about thirty Panthers
armed with pistols, rifles, and shotguns, marched onto the floor
of the Assembly chambers of the state Capitol Building to
protest passage of the Moford Act, a bill that would
prohibit the open carry of firearms on city streets. It
(05:43):
was a direct response to the Panthers, who were effectively
using rights under the Second Amendment to carry weapons and
monitor police.
Speaker 5 (05:51):
The black people, in particular, take full note of the
racist California legislature, which is now considering legislation aimed at
keeping the black people disarmed and powerless at the very
same time that racist police agencies throughout the country are
intensifying the terror, brutality, murder, and repression of black people.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
The Molford Act passed, but the message was clear. Black
residents weren't going to be pushed around. Sacramento didn't have
the level of overt racial discord of cities like Birmingham
or Detroit, but it wasn't completely harmonious either. Even as
discriminatory laws were abolished and civil rights flourished in Northern California.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
Challenges remained.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Police and fire department struggle to hire more recruits to
reflect its community's diversity. In twenty ten, Sacramento was thirty
seven percent white, twelve percent Black, and thirty percent Hispanic.
More than one out of every four Sacramento area residents
spoke a language other than English at home, but its
police department didn't reflect the city's demographics. It was sixty
(06:57):
six percent white, only six percent black, and only fourteen
percent Hispanic, and the fire department was even more disproportionate,
seventy one percent white, three percent black, and thirteen percent Hispanic.
Speaker 4 (07:11):
Decades of redlining, under investment in minority neighborhoods and a
general marginalization of people of color, coupled with gang violence
and the crack epidemic, laid the groundwork for racial disharmony.
Those tensions would rush to the surface on July eleventh,
twenty sixteen, when Sacramento police got a call concerning a
man walking along city streets wielding a knife.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
The shooting death of Michael Brown, an unarmed black eighteen
year old who was shot and killed by police in Ferguson, Missouri,
in twenty fourteen, thrust police brutality into the national consciousness.
Protests spawned across the country, and Sacramento's activists were also galvanized.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
Rallies spread across the city. Protesters took to the street
and disrupted meetings at city Hall. Here's very Axious, a
longtime community activist in Sacramento who led some of the protests.
Speaker 6 (08:09):
I think people were so shocked at what was happening
at Saint Louis, so I told that there were would
like incident away from being just like Saint Louis. And
it's not lost.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
Guess years.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Protesters needed just one incident to really set the spark
in Sacramento. They got it on the afternoon of July eleventh,
twenty sixteen, when Sacramento police received a call of a
man walking through a neighborhood north of downtown with a
knife and possibly a gun.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
The guy across the street a gun a knife.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Police arrived to find Joseph Mann, a fifty one year old,
mentally ill and unhoused black man, weaving between cars, acting erratically,
and waving a four inch knife.
Speaker 4 (08:55):
Police trailed them in their cruisers for several blocks and
ordered him to put the knife down and get on
the ground. Man ignored the orders, even throwing an empty
thermist bottle at police as he staggered along Del Passel Boulevard.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Two police officers and a cruiser attempted to hit Man
with their card.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
In a dash can video later released, the driver could
be heard saying, fuck this guy, I'm going to hit him.
Speaker 4 (09:33):
The officers finally exited the vehicle, cornered Man in front
of a storefront building and open fire.
Speaker 6 (09:46):
The god fire started down and.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
They fired eighteen rounds, hitting Man with fourteen of them.
He died at the scene. No gun was found on him.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
One of the officers was fired from the department, and
the other left to claim disability. No criminal charges were
filed against either one.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
The shooting sparked protests and prompted changes in Sacramento police's
use of forest policy, including requiring police to quickly release
body cam footage very axious, the community activist led some
of those protests.
Speaker 6 (10:23):
Once upon a time, before we put energy to it,
a police incident would just be a not even a headline,
it would even be a story. It would just be like, well,
that was a bad guy. It didn't even seem like
there was anything wrong. And even in the Joseph bad case,
I think that's what kind of really opened the eyes, like,
(10:43):
oh wait, we have a bigger problem here in Sacramento,
just like everywhere else, like where'e Gifford.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
The Joseph Mann shooting, unfortunately, was only the beginning. A
few years later, on the night of March eighteenth, twenty eighteen,
Sacramento police answered a call of someone breaking into cars
and followed twenty two year old Stefan Clark into his
grandmother's backyard. He was shot eight times, including six in
the back.
Speaker 4 (11:09):
Police said they thought a cell phone he was holding
was a weapon. No gun was found again. The officers
weren't charged with a crime.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
For stephon a love the court right hyay.
Speaker 4 (11:22):
This time, huge protests followed.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Unlike the shooting death of Joseph Mann, who was unhoused
with few family relations, Stefan Clark was young, with very
vocal family members and friends, who shooting sparked massive protests
across Sacramento. Sit In protests closed down the local mall.
Dozens were arrested when they marched through an affluent neighborhood.
(11:52):
Twice protesters surrounded the Golden One Center NBA arena and
locked arms, blocking fans of the Sacramento Kings entering the games.
Speaker 6 (12:01):
No justice, no right down, no d chanting time bomb
because the reaction how we responded, the preparation for a
lot of usalls a brown because we knew this bubble,
what's gonna happen. So in our mind we were just like,
(12:24):
we just need a moment where we really get just
take the city down.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
Pent Up frustration from the Joseph manshooting just a few
years earlier, coupled with a wave of national awareness of
police brutality, created a tinderbox situation in Sacramento.
Speaker 6 (12:41):
And so like every major city had its moments right,
San Francisco had that moment Oakland had their moments. Saint
Louis had a moment, You had New York's having a moment.
It seems like you go through the path, but like, Okay,
don exist time. It was our time, and it the
whole volcano erupted.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
A Sacramento twenty twenty. Protests against police had largely quieted,
but city leaders remained on edge. Ratio animosity and police
distrust simmered just beneath the surface. City leaders had gotten
a first hand look at the frustration sweeping the nation
and how quickly potentially violent outbursts could spark in their
(13:19):
own backyard.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
Little did they know they were about to face one
of their biggest challenges yet. February twenty fifth, twenty twenty,
began with the makings of a good day for Reggie.
He woke up, ate a bowl of shredded wheat, showered,
and got ready to head two dialysis, which he was
now doing regularly. His mom, Harriet, drove him on the
(13:44):
ride there. They stopped at a Taco bell and picked
up a Mexican pizza that Reggie could eat for lunch
while hooked up to the machine. She then dropped him
off at the center at noon for a four hour recession.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Dialysis flushes all the extra fluid and waste from the
body system, a task that Reggie's disease kidneys increasingly could
not perform on their own, but it can also fluctuate
blood sugar levels.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
As a result.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
In the aftermath, people are often drained of energy and
eager for the nearest bed. But when Harriet picked up
Reggie around four pm, he seemed totally fine. In fact,
he was talking on the phone with a cousin.
Speaker 7 (14:23):
Reggie's the person that any cousin, anybody you can call
rich when he's good, and he was good that day.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
They drove home and Harriet headed to the kitchen to
start cooking dinner, while Reggie went to his room to
fiddle with his computer. No one is quite sure what
exactly happened, but something with the computer didn't work, and
Reggie was triggered. He called out to his mom, then
slammed the laptop's shut. It all started to hit Harriet
something was not right with her son. She then peeked
(14:54):
into Reggie's backpack and saw the taco bell Mexican pizza.
It was untouched.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Alarm bells ring in Harriet's mind Reggie hadn't eaten anything
all day, except for able of shredded wheat in the morning.
This was dangerous territory for someone sitting through a day
of dialysis. The procedure physically batters and drains a person.
It wipes them out. It also lowers blood sugar. Now
(15:21):
Reggie was stomping around and blurting things incoherently. He chomped
outside to the backyard patio, laid down in the grass,
rose came back inside. Harriet had been through this before.
She knew precisely what to chalk this up to blood sugar.
She made Reggie eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich
(15:43):
and drink some water mixed with sugar. That calmed him
down a bit, but he was still behaving erratically. So,
just as she'd done four months earlier, she dialed nine
to one one.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
She thought he was having a low blood sugar issue
which was making him act that way. Yes, had happened
to him before, and look made same. E gave him
right now, ma'am, was the same thing, And I did,
and we did before I get him to eat something.
I got him to eat a half a peanut Buddy daily.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Sandwards Harry didn't trust the police or fire departments. She'd
been through too many instances, seen too many things that
made her deeply mistrust both agencies. But the last experience
was a positive one, and her son was clearly struggling.
These would likely be the same paramedics who had shown
up in November to help stabilize Reggie's gluecose levels. They
(16:38):
had helped her son before. Really, there was no reason
for her to think this time would be any different.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Do you think he's going to be combative with the
fire department? I don't think so. I thank you before
when they came, they got him the sugar and cooperate
with him. Okay, Well, every degree her, every time different.
I just have to ask you, yeah, okay, right now,
right now he's huggin the She's like that, Violet Harriet.
Speaker 8 (17:11):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
The call in the evening of February twenty fifth, twenty
twenty came into Sacramento Fire Station twelve, located a few
blocks away the station mobilized fire Engine twelve, driven by
Engineer Eric Munson and carrying Scott Caravallo, a firefighter and
licensed paramedic, and Captain Jeffrey Klein. The highest ranking fire
official on the call. It also deployed in Medic twelve,
(17:35):
an ambulance driven by Clint Simons and carrying Sean Holman,
a firefighter and licensed paramedic, as well as Joshua Williams,
a student at Sacramento State University doing a ride along
that night. Six total people, all of them white, with
a combined fifty plus years of experience, would answer the call.
Speaker 4 (17:57):
We asked the City of Sacramento, including the police and
fire departments, for comment, but the city declined to provide
anyone to be interviewed for this podcast.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
We also reached out to all the firefighters and police
officers who responded to Reggie's call that night.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Those we were able to reach refuse to speak to us.
All except one.
Speaker 4 (18:17):
Could you tell me, just for the sake of recording
your full name and age.
Speaker 8 (18:21):
Eric Munton, fifty two years old, tell me again when
you started with Sacramento Fire Department September eleventh, nineteen ninety five.
Speaker 9 (18:30):
And what was your actual position or rank February.
Speaker 8 (18:33):
Of twenty twenty. I was an engineer.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
That's Eric Munson. He retired recently from the Sacramento Fire
Department after more than a quarter century with the agency.
On the night of February twenty fifth, twenty twenty, he
was the engineer who drove Engine twelve the short distance
to Reggie's parents home and was tasked with carrying equipment
between the truck and the home when they got there.
(18:58):
Munson said, they were at the station when they receive
what was a quote medical call just a few blocks away.
When they got there, Harry greeted them and told them
Reggie was having a diabetic episode and explained his medical history.
Speaker 8 (19:12):
And as she's telling us the stories, she's walking us
to the back room where mister Payne is sitting on
the left side of the couches. We're facing the couch
and his father is sitting on the arm of the
right side of the couch. As we walk into the room.
Speaker 4 (19:27):
As they approached Reggie to tell them that they were
there to help him, Munson said, Reggie became belligerent.
Speaker 8 (19:34):
Mister Payne went from what I would say zero to
one hundred pretty darn quick. Became verbally abusive to EMS crews, swearing, yelling.
I believe he spit at us once or twice, flailing
arms and legs at times, being very poignant about who
(19:58):
he's talking about, who he's directing his aggression at.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
But Munson leaves out in important detail and we're not
saying he's deliberately doing so. But according to Harriet and Rufus,
Reggie held out his hand to greet the firefighters as
they approached, only they initially wouldn't shake it.
Speaker 7 (20:18):
By this time, Reggie is sitting on the couch. He'
say hello, I'm Reggie.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
He puts his.
Speaker 7 (20:23):
Hand out to a fire about paramedic, firefighteror whatever he was,
and the guy just looks at Rich standing up over him,
just looked at him. I said he was not going
to shake his hand. Reggie's hand was out.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Reggie, his glucose levels plummeting, paranoia clouding his mind, perceived
that as a lack of respect. That, more than anything else,
triggered him.
Speaker 7 (20:47):
I'm like, shake his hand, and then he shakes Reggie's hand.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Harriet also strongly denied Reggie ever spat on anyone.
Speaker 4 (20:56):
I asked Munson about the handshake thing, because it seemed
pretty vittal to all of this, but he didn't remember
seeing it. One of the paramedics, Clint Simons, later recalled
in a deposition that He did try to shake Reggie's hand,
but Reggie was the one who pulled away. Firefighters also
later said Reggie exposed himself to the fire crew, something
(21:18):
the family strongly denied. Whatever the reason, Reggie became agitated,
yelling incoherently and flailing around. Kleine made the decision to
pull his firefighters out of the home. He then called
police for backup.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Trel four one and Trels four two. I need to
pull you to start for a nine four y five
for the forty eight year old diabetics who's uncooperative.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
At seven forty seven pm, Dispatch directed Sacramento Police officers
David Mauer and John Helmick to the scene, as well
as officer Kevin Mormon. Mormon and Helmick had been on
the force for less than a year, Mauer for just
thirty two months. Unlike the veteran firefighters and paramedics on
the scene, the three police officers, also all white, had
(22:02):
just four years combined experience. Mormon arrived on the scene
first and met with the firefighters.
Speaker 9 (22:09):
Exactly, he's in the back. We just need you to
get him cuffed for stranger talk down so we can
check his blood sugar and fix him.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
That's audio from offers of Mormon's bodycam footage, which was
released by the city in the weeks following the incident.
Remember the case of Joseph Mann, the unhoused man shot
and killed by police. That incident led to the quick
release of this bodycam footage. In it, you hear Mormon
approach the fire crew, who fill him in on the situation.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
He's a big boy.
Speaker 7 (22:38):
That's why we called you.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
Immobile, So it's a little bit muffled.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
The caraval of the firefighter warns Mormon that Reggie's a
quote big boy, a phrase of Mormon repeats more clearly,
and Klein estimates Reggie Wade close to three hundred and
fifty pounds and towers that maybe six six or six
foot seven. Now, having a white person of authority called
black man boy carries all sorts of negative and racist connotations.
(23:10):
But in this case, let's give Caravallo the benefit of
the doubt for a minute. Maybe he calls men of
all races boy, but let's remove all that. It's not
even factually accurate. At the time of his death, Reggie
measured six feet taw and he only weighed two hundred
and twenty pounds. At least two of the firefighters there
that day, Simon's and Holman, weighed more than Reggie. But
(23:34):
a black man under duress seemed to alarm the fire crew,
and that's when they called police.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
When they arrived, the police officers huddled outside the home
and Mormon passed along the faulty information he had received
about Reggie's weight and stature. Mormon admitted he had never
restrained anyone on a medical call before. They then entered
the home.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Who Harriet explained Reggie's low sugar and how she took
him to dialysis earlier that day, and she showed them
the uneaten taco bell pizza. Reggie's running on fumes and
his blood sugar is sinking. In the background, you could
hear Reggie huffing and snorting.
Speaker 8 (24:14):
So I just want to make sure you're you're aware
of what we're gonna be doing.
Speaker 9 (24:17):
We're just gonna get him kind of restrained and some
cuffs so they can test.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Okay, saw you No, We'll let him know so we might.
Speaker 4 (24:29):
We're probably gonna have go hands on, but.
Speaker 10 (24:31):
There's not any crime or anything right now.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
We're just getting them.
Speaker 9 (24:33):
So the fire guys can take a look at him.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
Okay. Myers stresses to Harriet right there that no crime
has been committed. They're just there to hold Reggie so
that the fire crew could treat him. I have to
say the three officers appear calm, collected, even courteous. They've
clearly told Harriet what they plan to do, and their
tone is even helpful. But they honestly don't know what
(24:57):
awaits them in the back room where Reggie is.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
It's also kind of weird if you listen to the
language used there. He says, there's not any crime or
anything right now, emphasis on right now, almost an assumption
that some kind of escalation is coming, which just seems
like a very odd choice.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
Of words, especially because it was a medical call.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
As I entered the back room, Reggie sitting on the
couch and he's really out of sorts. He's making incoherent
grunting noises. He's sliding on and off the couch, his
arms are flailing, he's totally disoriented. The officer's approach, it's
going on, Reggie, you're feeling all right, having some blood shag, Gracious,
(25:42):
you're chilling.
Speaker 4 (25:45):
Mara's bodycam video shows Reggie on the couch, dressed in
a green sweater. The lighting is low and shadowy. Reggie
swings his head back and forth manically. His eyes are
closed and he's mumbling to himself. His face is scrunched
in what appears to be a pained expression. He swipes
a hand across his face. Hey, bud Fire wants to
(26:06):
come look at you, but you're kind of flailing around
all right.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Just then, Reggie slides off the couch and appears to
offer his right hand to Officer Helmet Helmik takes it.
Then the three officers descend on him. They pour his
arms behind his back, slide him to the floor, and
grab his feet. Within seconds, Reggie's hands are cuffed behind
his back in the prone position, while one of the officers, Chris,
(26:32):
crosses his legs and pin them to his torso.
Speaker 4 (26:35):
Reggie seems legitimately surprised. His eyes widened and he cries
out Daddy before he's pinned to the floor.
Speaker 7 (26:45):
Daddy.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Police had been in the home for less than two
minutes and had spoken a total of fifteen words to
Reggie before they had him face down on the floor
and handcuffed.
Speaker 4 (26:56):
The speed by which police put Reggie in handcuffs. Stock Harriet, so.
Speaker 7 (27:01):
Reggie, you gonna let them chuck you?
Speaker 2 (27:03):
No?
Speaker 3 (27:04):
Reggie said no.
Speaker 7 (27:05):
By that time, Reggie said, I don't know. He's looking
at this police officer. Reggie just said oh. After that,
that's all she wrote. They had him down, down, handcuffed,
legs up, shackled, all of that.
Speaker 6 (27:23):
That was it.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
Since you're listening to this on an audio medium, I
think it's important to explain what this scene looks like.
And if you've seen the video of George Floyd with
a cop sort of hanging over him, this isn't that dissimilar.
Reggie's on the ground, his faces down, his arms are
behind him, and it's clearly struggling, and I think there
(27:49):
has to be for him, has to be this moment
where you're like, how did I end up in this position?
Like I haven't committed a crime, I haven't done anything,
and he's just there, basically hog tied, unable to get out.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
It's really to watch. It is really, really, really chilling
and upsetting.
Speaker 4 (28:06):
Once they had Reggie cuffed, the firefighters came back in.
One of them, seeing Reggie pinned to the floor in handcuffs,
asks who's the rodeo star here?
Speaker 3 (28:16):
Who's your rodeo start here?
Speaker 8 (28:17):
The guy in there?
Speaker 2 (28:18):
I think John actually gotta just hop right in there.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
I'm so blown away by this moment, and I've reread
this moment a gazillion times and I still can't get
my head around. So reduces this to something like when
people complain about law enforcement not seeing people as real people,
you know, not seeing the humanity in the moment. To me,
(28:45):
who's the rodeo star here? Just encapsulates that entire thing
that people talk about.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
It is such a callous way of looking at this.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
I just think it's crazy that they're comparing a guy
who needs help to a rodeo animal, and that the
responders are supposed to be the rodeo stars. I don't
even know what words to put on that. It's just
so freaking disturbing to me. So after that happened, Simon's,
the paramedic who drove the ambulance, pricks Reggie's finger and
(29:16):
determines his blood glucose level is at fifty one milligrams
per desolader, dangerously low for a diabetic. Reggie's suffering from
severe hyperglycemia, a condition that can make him disoriented and confused.
As a paramedics work on him, Reggie cries out for
his parents. Reggie says, I can't breathe, followed by mommy
(29:48):
to me. This is the hardest part of the video
to watch, with his glucose levels plummeting and him struggling
to breathe. Reggie's crying out for his mommy and daddy.
Harriet and Rufus are just to a few feet away,
helplessly watching the people they've called to help their son,
still holding out hope that they're going to make him better.
Speaker 4 (30:08):
The actions of the police get confusing here. On the
one hand, they seem to be doing all they can
to comfort Reggie. They're saying things like you're all right, Reggie,
and just checking on you and making sure you're okay.
Their tone is calm, almost tender. One of them even
rubs Reggie's back, trying to calm him, but at the
same time, their hands are constantly on him, armstiff, applying pressure,
(30:32):
even as Reggie's clearly struggling. One of them keeps his
hand in the middle of Reggie's back, pinning him in
that prone position. Reggie's face whips from side to side,
obviously anxious.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
A few months later, the murder of George Floyd at
the hands of police with thrust of the prone position
back into national debate.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
But police have.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Known for decades the risks of holding a suspect in
that position for prolonged periods. Restraining someone faced out isn't
inherently life threatening, but place a hand or a knee
on the person's back while they're down, and their lungs
could compress, and a lethal amount of stress could be
placed on their heart. If the person has pre existing conditions,
(31:12):
such as obesity, hypertension, or mental illness, the risks intensify.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Reggie had all three.
Speaker 4 (31:20):
In Sacramento, police have been trained to be keenly aware
of the risks of restraining someone in the prone position.
At the Sacramento Police Department, General Order five to two
to two point zero two advises that if an officer
even quote suspects that a subject is suffering from any
medical distress, including excited delirium, they should place the subject
(31:42):
into a comfortable position an attempt to keep the subject
calm and still.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Sacramento firefighters follow even stricter rules against keeping people in
the prone position. There's a county document which all fire
Department personnel are expected to follow, and it states in
the section entitled behavioral crisis slash restraint that quote, all
restrained patients will be placed in a sitting, supine, semi fowlers,
(32:10):
or semi sitting position. It goes on to say, flatly
prone or hobble restraints are prohibited in all situations and circumstances.
Speaker 4 (32:20):
Despite all the training, all the warnings, and all the
policies prohibiting it. Minute after minute tick by, with Reggie
handcuffed to face down on the floor of his mother's house, grunting, gurgling,
and wheezing for air, none of the five firefighters or
three policemen there object to it.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Finally, around the eight minute mark of one of the
bodycam videos, Clint Simon's the paramedic, injects Reggie's shoulder with
a shot of glucagon to boost a sugar. Moments later,
Reggie stops moving. He's soundless, motionless, laying face down on
the floor, his hands still cuffed behind his back.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
Go limp.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Someone asks is he asleep?
Speaker 3 (33:08):
Sleep Munth's in. The engineer asks if he's still breathing.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Carvala reaches down and checks Reggie's neck per a pulse, Yeah,
he says, a few of them chuckle nervously. Firefighters then
slipped belcro straps around Reggie's wrist, pull him onto his side,
and hoist him onto a gurney. Nearly eight minutes have
(33:35):
passed from when he was first handcuffed in prone restraint.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
Twenty he was rolled out of that position.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
That is a lifetime for someone with as many pre
existing conditions as Reggie had.
Speaker 4 (33:46):
Harriet became so concerned over her motionless son that you
could hear her ask the paramedics if they had sedated him.
Speaker 9 (33:56):
No, he burnt the available sugar.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
That he had fighting.
Speaker 8 (34:00):
So now he just knouted out who gave him a
medicine called lipagon.
Speaker 4 (34:03):
He's going to turn his extra fat in. He goes
on to tell her he'll be quote right as rain,
as soon as it kicks in. Firefighters decide to transport
him to the hospital for further observation. They wheel Reggie
out of the home and to the waiting ambulance outside.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Only Reggie was not right as rain. He had slipped
into a coma. His vital functions, including the ability to
breathe on his own, were crashing within moments, the routine
medical visit would turn into a Code three emergency.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
As the firefighters worked on Reggie.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Eric Mudson, the engineer who drove Engine twelve to the house,
is in the background of the scrum, observing the scene
and hustling back and forth to the truck every few
minutes for supplies and equipment.
Speaker 8 (34:58):
I accident entered the home three different times, one time
on restock, one time to get soft restraints, and another
time to get the gurney.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
Upon reentering the home after one of his trips, Munson
noticed Reggie had become alarmingly still. He asked the group
whether Reggie was still breathing.
Speaker 8 (35:17):
There was a change in his actions, like he no
longer was actively fighting. He appeared to be still at
that point, which led me to ask, at basically identical
times as the captain, is he breathing.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Munson helped get Reggie on the gurney as others wheeled
him out. He stayed behind to gather equipment, clean up,
discarded wrappers of the glucagon shot, and generally tidy up.
He was one of the last firefighters to leave the
home Before returning to Ends and twelve. He stuck his
head into a side door of the ambulance to see
if they needed anything. He was stunned by what he saw.
(35:56):
Both firefighters Simons and Holman, as well as the ride
along Williams, were hunched over Reggie, pumping his chest and
trying to get oxygen.
Speaker 3 (36:06):
Into his lungs.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
It was a full on CPR emergency. Somewhere between the
home and the ambulance, Reggie had stopped breathing.
Speaker 8 (36:17):
What the fuck did I miss it? Basically, what happened?
What did I not see happening when he was on
the gurney, when as far as I knew, he was alive,
to all of a sudden now being under CPR.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
The seriousness of the situation hit munths in like a
slap to the face. CPR is only done to those
patients close to death, and the outcome is typically not great.
Speaker 8 (36:39):
You're dead. The only reason someone's wailing on your chest
is because your heart no longer is moving. That life's
giving fluid of blood through your body, carrying oxygen to
your stalls.
Speaker 4 (36:51):
The ambulances emergency lights flickered on and it's siren roared
to life. It sped off towards Sutter Medical Center. For
miles away in its rear compartment, Reggie clung to life.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
Somehow a routine medical call turned into a tragedy, a
tragedy that never should have happened.
Speaker 4 (37:19):
Next time, on Finding Sexy Sweat.
Speaker 10 (37:21):
It should have been a routine call. It should have
been about saving Reggie's life. And obviously it went arble wrong,
and it went horribly wrong for predictable and preventable reasons.
Speaker 8 (37:32):
I have never, in my twenty eight years with the
City of sacrament of Fire Department, ever seen an officer
attempt to stop an ambulance crew. Prior to going into
a hospital to get statements.
Speaker 9 (37:47):
Everybody was still on the George Floyd incident and that
just ramped everything up, and I guessed city didn't want
another Floyd type of spotlight on him.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Finding Sexy Sweat is a production of School of Humans
and iHeart Podcasts. This episode was reported, written and hosted
by Jeff Pelman and Rick Jervis. It was produced by
Gabby Watts, with production support from Etily's Perez Zaron Burnett Is.
Our story editor Jesse Niswanger.
Speaker 3 (38:16):
Scored and mixed the episode.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Executive producers are Virginia Prescott, Elsie Crowley and Brandon Barr.
Please leave the show a review that you can follow
along with the show on Instagram at School of Humans.
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