April 6, 2020 • 55 mins
Jerry Colonna is fondly known as the CEO whisperer. He coaches some of the world's biggest entrepreneurs - like the former CEO of Etsy and the folks who started Gimlet Media. He helps business leaders navigate uncertainty and chaos. At a time when the coronavirus crisis is devastating the economy and millions of people's lives have been changed forever, the future is nothing but uncertain. Jerry's whole ethos is centered around the concept: better humans make better leaders. And there's never been a more critical time for humanity or leadership. Jerry is the expert. His message is simple: Show up.
Show Notes
- Mostly Human: Silicon Valley’s Secret
- Comfortable With Uncertainty - a book by Pema Chödrön
- Old Maps No Longer Work - a poem by Joyce Rupp
- Reboot Peer Circles: Tips for Launching Your Own Support Group
- Polyvagal Theory
- Bodhisattva
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
First Contact with Lori Siegel is a production of Dot
Dot Dot Media and I Heart Radio. It's extraordinary. What's happening.
I'm talking to you thousands of employees at a company,
all at the same time, and I'm saying effectively the
(00:21):
same thing, which is, this is a time for pilgrims
to travel by the stars. And what are the stars?
The stars are our values, our beliefs are dreams, are
wishes or aspirations. I am fired up right now because
(00:43):
if we miss this opportunity, I will be heartwork. And
the opportunity here is to finally put people ahead of profit.
It's finally to put people on the planet ahead of profit.
M We're living in a pretty scary moment right now.
(01:13):
The coronavirus is devastating the economy. Unemployment is skyrocketing, Millions
of people's lives have been changed forever, and the future
is nothing but uncertain as we face this virus and
the destruction that's come along with it. I thought we'd
all benefit from hearing from Jerry Cologna. He is one
(01:36):
of my favorite people in tech and well maybe in life.
Jerry helps business leaders navigate uncertainty and chaos. He's known
fondly as the CEO whisper. Now I can attest to
this personally because I've worked with him on my business.
He will make you cry. Jerry is the CEO coach
(01:56):
to some of the world's biggest entrepreneurs, like the former
CEO of Etsy and the folks who started Gimblet Media.
For all your podcast lovers, he coaches founders through the
highs and more importantly, through the low points that we
don't necessarily see. Jerry spent a good part of his
career running one of New York's most successful VC funds,
(02:17):
Flatiron Partners, and he speaks candidly about his own challenges
with mental health. His book, Reboot Leadership in the Art
of Growing Up is an honest take at what it
means to lead and how to look from within, two
really important concepts right now. Jerry's whole ethos is centered
around the concept better humans make better leaders. There's never
(02:42):
been a more critical time for humanity or leadership, and
Jerry is the expert. His message is simple, show up.
I'm Laura Siegel and this is first contact. I said
(03:02):
this before and I will say it now that we're
rolling like I do feel like um you are just
like the equivalent of like a virtual hug. Something about
you super super comforting. So I'm really happy to have
you on first contact. And and I guess I should start.
I want to start with kind of the basic question,
which is, I guess, like, how are you doing right now?
(03:27):
Thank you? I tend not to be a silver lining
kind of guy, but I do think that there's something
powerful going on here, which hopefully we'll get to. So
how am I challenged? Yeah? Um, yesterday afternoon, Um, I
(03:49):
did I think my third client call. And it was
a Sunday afternoon, and and that's normal in these times.
And I felt depleted. And I am acutely aware of
my own limitations right now, and I am reminded daily
(04:14):
of the very same things that I would advise other
people to do, which is to hold those limitations without
shame or guilt. And at the same time, I am
breathlessly blown away by the joys that I see. I
see people collaborating, I see people reaching deep down inside
(04:39):
and finding ways to connect. I see adventure. I see
people just finding their path to the best possible selves.
And I love human beings more today than I did yesterday.
And I loved them a lot yesterday. So that's how
(05:00):
I'm doing. How are you, UM? Same? I don't care, UM,
you know, I think for me, I was trying to
figure it out. I always step into other people's stories
for a living, UM, and I can be deeply empathetic,
(05:22):
and I can try to understand how other people are
doing and ask them challenging questions and try to understand
human nature. But something that's different about this story is
that I'm in it, and that all of us are
in it together, and that we are all experiencing issues
like you know, anxiety and loneliness and fear and joy
(05:46):
and love and all of these things. And so never
in my career, truthfully have I UM been in the
story so much as the one that I'm delving into. UM.
You know, So I think an honest answer is, UM,
I'm okay, right, Like I'm I'm sitting in you know,
(06:07):
out of quarantine, but in self isolation in New York City,
self isolating alone, worried about my UM parents back in Atlanta.
And you know, with these crazy questions you never envisioned
yourself asking in which is, if I go home, could
I hurt my parents? UM? When we come out of this?
Will everyone I know be okay? Will I be okay?
(06:29):
How will I battle my mind? Um? Will I be
able to be an okay leader? A good leader? Um?
You know? Will I have a business out of this?
I mean, you know, truthfully to to give you? I
feel like with you, Jerry, like I can't you know,
I can't hide, so I might as well not try. Um.
(06:50):
And and you know this show is called first contact.
And our first contact was when we were shooting a
documentary on mental health and depression and turn the tables
on me when you asked me why you wanted to
do the story and and I was kind of giving
you a non answer, and you asked me to show up. Um,
And that's kind of in your DNA. And I think
(07:10):
this global pandemic has forced us all in some capacity
to have to show up right and and so um,
So I guess that's a long answer to UM, I'm
doing okay. I'm trying to show up for myself so
I can show up for other people. And it just
depends on the minute in the hour, and and my
(07:32):
whole thing has always been trying to make people feel
less alone. And so I think I find purpose in
that and then I you know, and then every day
I tried to, you know, make sure I don't implode
in my head. So there that that's that's how I'm doing. UM.
So yeah, now that that's all out there. Yeah, you know,
(07:52):
there's something beautiful about you showing up as you just did.
You showed up. And you know, I'm fond of joking.
You know the phrase no misty um and it's uh,
it's loosely translated as the divine in me sees the
divine in you. I like to translate it as the
(08:13):
mess and me sees the mess and you um, because
it allows us to be together. You know. We had
Matt mullen wig On, the founder of word Press, and
he talked about this being boss level mode, like this
is the most extreme and I just feel like you're
the kind of person who's on the front lines of
some of the most extreme stuff. And so a lot
of folks I know are losing jobs, are having to
(08:33):
lay off people, and are having to learn how to lead.
And I'm sure you're on the phone with very successful
tech entrepreneurs who are I'm sure you're hearing all sorts
of different things. Be curiously like what is your advice
to people right now on how do you lead during
this time when I mean sometimes it's kind of tough
to get out of bed truly. Well, there's a lot
(08:56):
to say about leading during this time. But the first
thing that I would say actually harkens back to what
you just share it in your in your checking, if
you will, and even in the reference to the first
contact that we had with the documentary, and that is that, well,
everything feels different and we all are wondering how different
(09:20):
the world will be when we get through this time,
and we will get through this time. The world is changing,
but it's not ending, and that's really important. Distinction hold
on to what has been important, is what is important,
which is what will be important, which is that leaders
(09:42):
have to show up and be real always, always always.
Can I read to you a quote that I found
enormous comfort from. I'll give you a little backstory on this.
So any patron is a Buddhist teacher, and she has
(10:06):
come to my rescue many times in my life through
her works, through her teachings on one on one and
this is a quote that I've carried with me for
many years. And I'm going to read the whole thing.
It's it's a little bit large, but it's worth it,
she writes. All around us, the wind, the fire, the earth,
(10:26):
the water are always taking on different qualities. We also change,
like the weather. We abb and flow, like the tides,
We wax and wane like the moon. We fail to
see that, like the weather, we are fluid, not solid,
and so we suffer. What we failed to see is
(10:48):
that we can use everything, everything we do, to help
us to realize that we're part of the energy that
creates everything. If we learned to sit still like a
mountaine in a hurricane, if we learned to sit still
like a mountaine in a hurricane, unprotected from the truth
(11:08):
and vividness and the immediacy of simply being part of life,
then we are not the separate being who has to
have things turn out our way. When we stop resisting
and let the weather simply flow through us, we can
live our lives completely. And that's from our wonderful little
(11:31):
book Constable with Uncertainty. I love that, and it's this
idea of leaning into the inability to kind of control
a lot of what's happening right now and the uncertainty
of it. I mean something I think about is even
quote when we come out of this, right, as we
come out of this, nothing will feel the same again.
I mean you are talking to I'm sure entrepreneurs left
(11:54):
and right, like who are having to lay off lots
of people. So you know, it's like you can't say
the world be okay, you know, because the world is
going to look really different after this. So you know,
what you touch on that quote is kind of being
able to lean into not being able to control a
lot of this, to be able to be steady and
go with it. How do you suggest, you know, I
(12:18):
know you can't really wave the magic wand and how
have all the answers you talk to people at the
highest levels, like, how do you tell them to cope
with this idea of uncertainty? Well, let's go back to
what I'm saying before about being real. When we are
real and we show up and we allow space for
the full magnitude, the full roller coaster ride of our
(12:39):
own emotional state, the ebb and flow, the wind, the earth,
the rain that Anti Pemmer describes. When we allow the
fullness of that to happen and we don't fight it,
this is the key. When we don't fight that. What
happens then is that we can then hold on to
(13:01):
the things that are actually not changing. See. Part of
the problem right now is that we have no idea
what's going to change. And the truth is, Laurie, certainty
is the delusion. Certainty is the illusion. It's a better
(13:21):
word than delusion. Certainty is not the guaranteed thing there
there is no certainty. We come to the edge of
a curb, we look at the walk don't walk sign.
We see walk. We say to ourselves, I can cross
the street safely, and bang we're hit by a car.
That is reality. But we have to walk around with
(13:44):
this belief system that things are knowable, because otherwise it's unbearable.
But what we lose when we over index on that
is the ability to respond fluidly to the shifts that
are happening. And by the way, I don't know any
(14:05):
other leadership skill that's more important than the ability to
read the weather and respond with fluidity because everything is
changing all the time. So the challenges how do we
deal with the fear that that change arises within us?
And that goes to the other part of that imagery.
(14:27):
For me, the mountain isn't some inflexible, brittle, pigheaded response
to the world around us. The mountain is to remember
the things that are important to us. You know, in
your case, Laurie, telling the human story, it's the tent
(14:47):
pole that holds the entire canvas up of your life.
It's who you are. It's not I'm going to have
a job at CNN or I'm going to have my
own company. Those are manifestations of the tempole. I think
that humanity in such an interesting way is rising to
the surface, and it's forcing us to edit so quickly
(15:10):
the people, places of things in our lives that are
so fundamental. And you're right, So for me, storytelling around
humanity and technology and making people feel us alone, that's
been in my DNA for so long and it has
never been closer to the surface, right, you know, And
I think this moment has solidified that. But but you're right,
I don't know. I think you know, even I don't
(15:32):
know how to describe this. But it's like even being
a leader during this time, right, And you deal with leaders.
There's just in general with tech And we both know
this because we've been in tech for a long time.
You've been in tech much longer than I am. There's
not really a rule right, and you're you're very successful,
You've been in this for a long time. There's not
(15:53):
really a rule book in tech, right, Like you know,
people kind of they do their their thing and they'll
follow the rules. But this thing that's happened, it's just
like you don't know, I think as a leader, and
this is maybe you hear my own internal struggle, like
what is the right thing to do? Right? And you
see all these micro decisions that have happened and every
single leader making them. When did they shut down the business?
(16:16):
Are they going to lay off people? Are they going
to make the hiring decision that they probably you know, like,
I don't know, do you is there a framework? And
maybe this is just me reaching for something You're you
literally have dealt with the most successful people, some of
the most successful entrepreneurs who have weathered things. I don't
think anyone's weathered something like this, But like, do you
(16:37):
what framework do you give leaders during this time to
help make some of these decisions? Right? So I think
what you're asking me really succinctly is what should we do? Yeah?
What do you do? Right? And so I want to
bring your attention to a couple of things. The first,
as you said, intact, there's no rule book. Well, here's
(16:59):
a new flash. There is no rule book, not just
a tech. Even our most codified wisdom traditions, from the
bugabb Gita to the New Testament, from the Quran to
the sutras of the Buddha, they're all pointers. They're all
(17:19):
pointing out a path. They're not the path. And that
has always been true. Part of our collective allusion has
been to believe that there is one way to do things,
because it quiets our nervous system to believe that that
(17:41):
is so. There is no one path, there is no
rule book, and the fact that we are finding ourselves
and circumstances that none of us have found ourselves in
before points to the vividness of the reality that all
old maps no longer apply. Joince Rupp has a beautiful
(18:04):
poem by that title old Maps no Longer Apply, and
she describes the fact that there's a moment in life
for all of us, whether it's coronavirus, or economic upheaval
and turmoil, or an individual company collapsing, there's that moment
when we realize that the old map that we have
(18:25):
been following is a map that was given to us,
written by somebody else, and beautifully gorgeously. What she reminds
us is there was a time when pilgrims traveled by
the stars and they didn't need maps. And what I
did with you just by calling up the point of
(18:47):
storytelling is what I am trying to do with every
single person that I encounter right now, and right now
it's extraordinary. What's happening. I'm talking to thousands of employees
that a company me all at the same time, and
I'm saying effectively the same thing, which is, this is
a time for pilgrims to travel by the stars. And
(19:12):
what are the stars? The stars are our values, our
beliefs are dreams, are wishes or aspirations. You know there's
a part of me or you know how I can
get preacher like I am. I am fired up right
now because if we miss this opportunity, I will be heartbrook.
(19:37):
And the opportunity and again I don't like silver linings either,
but the opportunity here is to finally put people ahead
of profit. It's finally to put people on the planet
ahead of profit. Yeh, Can we be done with business
as usual because you and I first met, because we
looked at the way businesses were destroying individual lives. Every
(20:01):
single CEO I encounter, usually by video, are standing there
with tears in their eyes, saying, four weeks ago my
company was doing well, and now I just laid off
of my staff. I was talking to one friend, the CEO.
He said, I just find myself staring out the window
(20:22):
all day. And I said to him, what do you
see when you stare out the window, And he said
the faces of the employees, And they're kints right. There's
no sugarcoating this experience. This is painful. And what I
said to him was, don't ever forget those faces. Look,
(20:42):
I cannot be the first responder in Elmohist Hospital, as
much as I might want to go in there, I
cannot be, you know, magically like Dyson just did invent
a new ventilator. I can't magically make medical supplies happen
or or protect the health care workers. But I can't
do what I was organized to do. I can do
(21:06):
what I was built to do, which is hold people's hearts.
And that's how I will help. And that's how you
were helping Okay, we've got to take a quick break
to hear from our sponsors. More with my guest after
the break. I know we talked about you being the
(21:42):
CEO Whisper and this and that, like and that's a nice,
great title that I think totally fits. But the reason
why people call you that is, Yes, you make people cry,
but there's a reason. It's because you forced I think,
a lot of humanity out of people. And I think
it's because you faced a lot of humanity in your
own life. Um, you were here in New York City
(22:03):
for nine eleven. You have faced um existential depression. Right,
You've talked very openly about that. That's how we first
got in contact, because you've been open in your community
and outward about that. And you've been working with people
for sixteen seventeen years. You've been working with first time entrepreneurs.
So when you, as a leader have to let of
(22:27):
your staff go, or when you are one of those
people that you're worried that your job is not even
going to exist in two months, when we quote come
out of this, right, who knows when we're going to
come out of this. I don't want to put any
artificial timeline on it. How do you, as someone who
has literally been someone who has screamed about our messy
(22:48):
minds and how we have to take care of them
for a long time, what advice do you give your
advice to that CEO um saying don't forget those faces?
I think is important? What advice do you give to
people when it comes to taking care of their heads
as they make these decisions that they just a month
ago didn't even couldn't even comprehend. Yeah, you could summarize
(23:10):
everything by the simple notion that when a full, real,
messy human shows up, they are better readers, and that
when they use that messiness to explore their leadership challenges,
(23:32):
they go back and they get to heal the messiness again.
That truth remains. And so what I would say to
people right now is you sit like a mountain in
a hurricane, not prettily, but holding fast to the notion
(23:54):
of what does it mean to be human? And human
this time? There are people who are laid off inhumanely,
and there are people who are going to be laid
off humanely. No matter how many things you have out
of your control, and my God, so many things are
(24:15):
out of our control right now. You are not powerless
over whether or not you act humanely or inhumanely. Yeah,
I'm going to say that again because it's really important.
You have a choice as to how you are going
to hold yourself, and the embodiment of that choice is
the embodiment of the mountain. What values do you hold to?
(24:43):
How do you respond to the employees who are not
being laid off? How do you hold them and create
space for them. I was on a call today with
about two hundred employees. It's It's one company, and one
of the senior executives checked in and he said, bravely,
wonderfully filled with self love and self care. He said,
(25:04):
I've been terribly unproductive today, And and that's brave because
he just allowed himself to be in that space, partially
because he'd opened up his home to somebody whose borders
have been closed and he had nowhere else to stay. Yeah,
(25:25):
that's being human. I mean, and there's something so crazy
human about this moment. Look at you're literally looking into
my home right we for our listeners were zooming right like,
you're literally looking into my home right now? You know, Um,
there's something so personal, I mean, it's just extraordinary. The contrast. Right,
(25:46):
I was thinking about it. I woke up this morning,
and truly, Jerry, it's like it totally depends on the
day in the minute as to how how I'm doing.
And I think I represent just everyone else too, you know,
Like I don't think that I'm unique in this, um,
so I'll say it, but like, you know, it's just
there's a stark contrast. It's silent outside and then there's
(26:07):
like this war being fought, right then there are these sirens, um,
and it almost feels like this thing is kind of
closing in on us. And and then you think, like
will things ever be the same? And so it's just
like these days of really trying, um too mentally, you know,
be productive and be there for a present for other people,
(26:27):
your parents, your employees, your friends, your family, you know,
and then also really try very hard to to create
a structure for yourself to move forward. Um. It's unlike
anything I've ever experienced, So I'll be open about it. UM.
I just think it's it's extraordinarily human. It's as human
(26:48):
as it gets, you know. You know, there's not one
person and in fact, of the billions and billions of
humans who have existed not one has been through this before.
And so in the social distinct isolation that you're going
through right now, don't lose sight of the fact that
(27:08):
whatever fears you're having, whatever rollercoaster of emotions you're having,
whatever ups and downs you're having, not alone. I think
that's so important to realize that we are all collectively
alone but going through this together. I know that you
guys put out and I read it, and actually it
was super helpful to me. Under the reboot guidelines like
(27:28):
what are for mandatory like isolation? Here are some guidelines
of what you can do as leaders or for a
company and for connection, provide care support. Could you walk
us through some of those like I love the idea
of giving people just like tangibles, right, could you walk
us through like some of what you would suggest. So
(27:51):
what we did, and you're right. First of all, what
I would say is, and this is a message that
I've said to my small little company in in the
band end Up Brokenhearted Warriors, that we are. What I've
said is we were built for this, not for these times,
but for this call. And this is how we will
(28:11):
be helping is to lean in and be there for
individuals and large and small organizations to help them in
their processes of being human right now. And so this
is a document that Chris band and Brink, one of
(28:33):
my colleagues, wrote, which is really a summary of what
we've learned in offering virtual pure support groups. And just
for context, one of the things virtual happy hours are great,
m and one of the challenges is that we're all
taking on this sort of odd little burden of trying
(28:53):
to make each other happy, and that can create a
kind of a illness that doesn't allow the fullness for
the experience. And so one of the first things we
always recommend is you start with the check in. And
you and I actually did this, and we started with
(29:13):
that very famous Jerry question of how are you? And
you turn the tables and you started with me tried
to catch me, I know what you're doing. Um. And
the thing is that we have always advised that business
meetings start with a check in, and a check in
usually goes kind. We tend to use from the from
(29:34):
poly vegal theory, red yellow, green as a means of
identifying how we're doing. Red obviously is not in the
best of all places. I'd rather be someplace else. Yellow,
I'm kind of in the middle green, I'm good to go,
And it's a way of quickly being able to identify
our feeling state, and then people are welcome to the
(29:57):
name any color and not use any color at all.
We're actually putting out a little recording about how to
do regular green chickens. But the point of the chicken
is to establish an emotional rapport with people. I'll add
that one of the really powerful things the video is
if you can manage to tilt the computer or your
(30:18):
screen or your camera in such a way so that
you can look into the camera with your eyes, so
that your partners can see your eyes. It's really powerful
because when we're at physical distance, what we lack is
the emotional report that comes from being able to read
each other's energy, and it can increase the sense of isolation,
(30:39):
especially if people are on a video call and they're
actually looking away, like if I turned my body away. Okay,
So that's a really important piece. The second is we
often think of setting the container, and I always talk
about a glass of water, and an empty glass is
(30:59):
her bustless and water without a glass is useless. And
so when you set the intention to have a peer
support group and a pure checking. That's the water, that's
the content, that's what it is that we're really there for.
But if you don't have a proper container or the
(31:20):
proper set of rules about how to do it, it
can quickly become useless. And so we have a couple
of norms and guidelines that we talk about. One is
presence really show up, really be there, so simple thing,
turn off the notifications on your computer. Nobody else needs
(31:41):
to hear ding ding ding. A second, much more important
is you ask questions before giving advice. In fact, dial
down the advice giving, dial up the questions, how are
you feeling? What would be different? That sort of thing.
It's often helpful to sort of bring forth a particular
(32:05):
issue that the group is working on. Hey, you know,
if it's four or five vice presidents at a company,
you might come forth and say, hey, how are we
going to be communicating about this layoff? And there may
only be one person who has to deal with that.
By talking about it together, it can be really powerful.
(32:25):
First of all, you can get more perspective, which is
always helpful, but you can get more support in that regard.
There's a whole long list of things here and there's
lots and lots of links on that, and I'm sure
you'll make that. We'll put it in our show notes. Well, definitely,
we definitely will. And I love that. Um, I'm going
to ask you. I don't normally do these types of question,
(32:48):
but because you're on the front lines and you're hearing things,
i'd be curious to know. And I'm gonna ask two
questions at once because i don't want you to think
I'm just asking the first, what is the most heartbreaking
thing that you've heard from a CEO over the last
couple of weeks? And what is the most heartwarming thing
you've heard? Well, actually, the most heartbreaking thing I've heard
(33:08):
is not actually from a CEO, but it's from a
woman who's so many people are worried simultaneously about their
children and about their parents, just like you are worried
about you know, your parents and are they safe and
are they actually listening to you? And this woman, she
was part of an all hands conversation and she was
(33:30):
just talking about her father, who it's an immigrant from China,
lives in Sheep's at Bay and a supposed to worker
and he takes the D train. I imagine or maybe
the f from Brooklyn to Penn Station to work at
the Farley Post Office, the main post office in New
(33:52):
York City. And I can't get that man out of
my head. How danger us to get on a subway
which is I'm sure empty in a community right now
that is struggling mightily with racism um coming from our
(34:13):
highest leaders, and he won't stay home. I mean, I
can't stop thinking about that man. And I can't stop
thinking about that young woman who cares about her father.
You know, Um, I grew up in Brooklyn. It's kind
(34:33):
of obvious for my accent. And there are a lot
of people who think of New York and the glitz
of New York. They think of New York as Manhattan
between Street and Wall Street. Maybe, but that's not my
New York. My New Yorker postal workers and sanitation workers,
(34:54):
and I'm sorry. You know, the firefighters, the ambulance drivers.
You know, somebody's going out and repairing traffic lights and
it ain't me. You know, these are the people I
(35:17):
grew up with. This is where Grit really needs we.
We talked about so much about resilience and leadership circles.
You want to know resilience. Catch a subway that started
off in the Bronx at three o'clock in the morning
or four o'clock in the morning, and watch people going
(35:39):
to work with construction boots time or white nurses shoes.
Think of the woman who emigrated from Haiti, who's a
nurse in Elmhurst Hospital. You know, Elmhurst, Elmhurst. What a
(36:00):
hundred and twenty hundred and thirty languages spoken in that
one zip code that's New York That, as you can tell,
it breaks my heart. Um, and and you know there
are people like that in every community. Yeah, what do
you think? Um, well, can I give you the joyful moment? Yeah? Yeah, sure,
(36:28):
so um one of the moments of joy was actually
something that happened internally for the company. And I've had
lots and lots of moments of joy, usually around seeing
human beings come together. But last Friday, you know, many
of my colleagues have have little rugrats, little munchkins, and
you know, my youngest is twenty two, so it's been
(36:50):
a long time. And so I did story time for
one of my colleagues four year old and just over
video read a book and you know, it was more
for me than for him, because he could barely. But
Sam is the tank engine. But um, you know, a
(37:12):
promise I've made to myself as a CEO is that
I'm not going to forget that and I'm gonna not
wait for times of crisis to inquire about the health
and well being of my colleagues four year old son.
You know. So there's there's a tinge of bitter sweetness
(37:35):
in that joy. Okay, we've got to take a quick
break to hear from our sponsors more with my guest
after the break. H what do you think resilience is
(38:02):
in the era of coronavirus. Well, it's really important to
remember about resilience that we we oftentimes misunderstand. Resilience is
a kind of false ah, a capacity to always take
a punch, right, to take a punch, get knocked down,
(38:23):
and stand up. And that's great if you can do that.
But true resilience is the ability to duck. I'm a boxer, right,
and you know my boxing coach would yell at me
if I stood there blithely taking a punch because you
don't really last very long. And so true resiliency, true grit.
(38:49):
If you will, it's the capacity to sort of really
be flexible and to shift and to respond differently to
changing circumstances, and so resiliency in the age of coronavirus.
I think resiliency in this age requires us to go
back to and remember what was vitally important about us
(39:12):
in the first place, what brought us together, and what
remains what is true regardless, Resiliency being in the form
of being able to withstand the heartbreak of connecting with
a postal worker who's commuting on a train at five
(39:34):
o'clock in the morning or something like that, and knowing
what is our work to do, and knowing that that
my job as a leader right now is to hold
myself steady, to remind people of their true worth, their
true values, and call that forth, call forth that humanity.
(39:55):
As you mentioned before, M, I suppose in the end,
resiliency is really a quality of leadership in that way,
more than a thing unto itself. When you talk about
holding close what's important to you, UM, I think I've
done a lot of thinking about what is important to
me during this time. Thank you, quarantine, UM, what is
(40:21):
that for you? M. You're gonna make me cry so
you reference the fact that I've had my own existential
depression and suicidal feelings and h and attempted suicide when
(40:43):
I was a teenager, and then a return of those
feelings in my thirties. And as I as I left
that period and entered a new period still connected to
the pain of that, I began exploring Buddhism, and um,
(41:05):
it works for me. And I don't mean to proselytize,
I find what works for you is fined by me whatever.
But it worked for me because of so many different reasons.
But one of the things that I found fascinating is
the notion of the Buddhisatta. And Bodhisatta isn't just another
saint I was raised in the Catholic traditions are the
(41:27):
deep and profound awareness of saints. Um a Bodhisat is
someone who could attain enlightenment, who could leave suffering behind,
but chooses to take rebirth time and time again until
all beings are free from suffering. M hm. So what
(41:50):
matters to me, Laurie, is my Bodhisava that mm hmm.
I am wired to care. I am at my best
when I am caring. And what matters to me is
(42:10):
love and compassion, And what coronavirus has taught me already
it is that which I thought was true, I have
now confirmed is in fact true. But the only response
to fear is love. It's the only response that works.
(42:32):
And so when we're terrified, find the compassion. You know,
Fred Rogers loving wonderfully used as advised children to look
for the helpers. All amend that by saying there's a
helper inside of you. Look for that helper because we
(42:55):
can all do something special. We can all do one
little thing, pulling it out a little bit. I know
something you said earlier thought was interesting about business is
changing after this, Like as we come out of this,
you talk about, you know, maybe people will look at
people over profit. Maybe things will be different. Um when two, three,
(43:20):
four or six months a year down the road, Like
do you think that businesses changed? Do you think that
we lead with heart? Like? What do you think happens
to businesses? I don't know for sure, but I know
what I would like. I don't I can't tell you
with certainty, but I know what would be a tragedy,
(43:41):
And what would be a tragedy is if we let
this time pass and we let all those lives go,
and we still find ourselves squabbling over nonsense, and we
do that a lot. I find it hard to believe
that that the vast majority of us will somehow forget.
(44:04):
But this time period was like, I don't believe humans
are like that. And I think back to what happened
in theties after the Great Depression hit and the not
just you know the stories that we tell of our
ancestors who saved every little bit of string and turned
it into a ball because they had grown up in
(44:27):
the depression, but because of the entitlement programs that were
created as a result of that, the commitment the government
made to taking care of people. I think in a
similar fashion, they were entitlement programs that were created, despite
its profound racism the fifties, we created the middle class
(44:47):
because there was a commitment that that sacrifice it's going
to mean something. I know that we have the capacity
to do that as a species, not just as a country.
And you know that's my hope and my wish, and
you know, to me, businesses are the best organization structures
(45:09):
to manifest social change possible. They are fast, they are
efficient for the most part, they do miraculous things we
just need to make sure that the leaders are leading
from their heart. That's all I do. Wonder, having covered
tech and having seen us through this tech lash, and
having watched it come all the way over the pendulum
(45:31):
swing one way, I wonder if we come back. I
wonder if this is a reset for many of these
tech companies that are now kind of the most powerful
companies in the world. I wonder what this will mean
for them. Well, if to take a look at Amazon,
which you know, is of course a tech company, but
is also a logistics giant, right, let's hope that giants
(45:54):
like Amazon, and I think it's true. I think they
were having I mean, I'm talking to some of these leaders.
They see it. They have if not the direct family,
then they have cousins who are impacted. They see the
lines impacted by this, and they want to do something.
And let's just hope that they have internalized a change.
(46:15):
I had this thought before I got on with you.
I just what does this virus mean for the American dream?
I look at friends of mine who have small businesses,
folks who work at restaurants. I'm already seeing jobs lost,
and so that question of like what does this mean
for the American dream. I don't know what do you
(46:37):
think it mean for your dream? Oh? I think it
means from my dream, it means it's more tangible than ever,
you know. I think storytelling is kind of a method
of survival for me personally. But I also think, I
said this in my last episode, which is um, my
favorite Joan Didion quote, as we tell ourselves stories in
order to live. Well, that's essentially what I I've got
(47:00):
to do for myself and others right now. But that's
you know, I think for for me, that's that's my dream.
And I think that survives. I think that survives this,
you know, hopefully, I mean for me personally, hopefully. Um.
You know, I I think about those things because we
are a small business, and we are you know, we
(47:21):
are new and and uh they came at a at
a weird time and we had to throw everything out
the window and rethink from quarantine. Um like many other people, right,
like a lot of other folks. But it got me
thinking about the American dream. Like, I think what you're
referring to is the American dream of an individual crafting
(47:44):
their own future. So I think let's make a distinction.
There are some dreams that will be dashed. That is true.
There will be some dreams like was it Maureene Hansbury
who wrote that will dry up like a reason in
the sun from the Langston Hughes poem. But the American
(48:08):
dreaming will go on. The act of dreaming is more
important than the dream itself, because that's resiliency. I spoke
to a Venture Accelerated this morning, a group that incubates
lots and lots of entrepreneurial endeavors, and their entire mode
(48:30):
of operating has to change right now. And I reminded
them of their purpose, which was two, three, four or five,
six months from now, nine months from now, whenever it
is that we are through this period. Their job is
to take care of those dreamers so that those dreamers
(48:52):
can manifest their dreams. The dreaming will continue, but what
we dreamed up will be different. Right now, somebody is
inventing a new ventilator. Right now, somebody is saying the
logistical nightmare of not being able to get seven cent mass,
(49:18):
that's how much they cost. Apparently now mass, the logistical
nightmare of not making enough of those it's going to
be sold by an American dreaming entrepreneur or an entrepreneur
from another country. Yeah, that will not stop. I am
(49:38):
so excited to watch technology entrepreneurs step up. I mean
I got into this in two thousand and eight interviewing
entrepreneurs when we were coming out of the recession, when
there was the iPhone launched, the app store, it was launched,
and there was just like this canvas for creativity, right
and like people dreamed, like there were a ton of dreamers.
(49:59):
And I have a feeling that we're going to have
a lot of dreamers come out of this, that we're
going to have a lot of people who have a
lot of heart, who have seen things happen to their
parents and their friends, and have seen that there is
a system that is broken. I hope you know that
that ethos of tech that I so fell in love
with as a startup reporter, you know, in my early twenties,
(50:21):
I can hopefully not to try to find a silver lining,
but I can see that, I can see that we
are going to I hope we are going to have
We're already seeing that, and that, you know, that makes
me really happy. So you know, um, in the early
days when I was at VC, one of the entrepreneur
archetypes that I could not stand back and I would
(50:41):
not back were people who were in it for the money.
I just, I just I couldn't. I couldn't bear to
be around them. One of the things that will happen
in this time period is those people who are pursuing
something because they think it's a path to riches will
probably not continue pursuing things. But the people who rise
(51:05):
up with the people who genuinely lean in and say
I have an idea that might help, And that to
me is the essence of entrepreneurship. I have an idea
that might help. Wouldn't it be cool if would it
be cool if we could triple the production to ventilators
inside of two months? Mm hmmm, here's an idea, right.
(51:30):
That's the American dreaming process. Um. I want to end
on something you said that I love that this is
in your book. I like scribbled notes in your book
like a crazy person. Um, and I just think it's
a It's really fitting you. See. The call to lead
is the call to be brave, and I think all
(51:50):
of us are trying to lead in some capacity, whether
or not we own our own business, whether or not
we are parents trying to figure out how to homeschool
are chi children. But I think bravery is a is
a big one. So um, I appreciate that statement. And
I don't know if you have anything you want to
add on it, but when it comes to this moment,
(52:11):
but I think it's super fitting for this time, well,
I agree with you. It's I think the call to
leadership is a call to bravery, but the call to
bravery is a call to be human. And I think
that as much as anxiety and fear is a foundational
(52:32):
component of us in our survival technique, just as true
as that is is the is the truth that we
are called to be brave. It takes courage to grow
up and become an adult. It takes courage to hold
ourselves steady like a mountain in a hurricane. It takes
(52:53):
courage to homeschool our kids, to use a video call
to talk to a parent and remind them to stay inside.
And it takes courage two put that structure to your
day and go about your day. It takes courage to
admit that you're afraid. That's true bravery, and that's the
(53:18):
most fundamental source of joy that I'm experiencing is because
I see bravery every day time and time again. Maybe
what we should say, you know how we've all taken
the scene to each other stay safe. Maybe we should
say stay brave. I really like that stay brave. This
(53:45):
episode is coming out on Monday, April six. If you
want to talk to Jerry, I'm hosting a town hall
with him tonight at eight pm. Check out my social
media for a link to register. We want to hear
your questions about leadership and resilience in these crazy times.
I'm at Lorie Siegel on Twitter and Instagram, and the
show is at First Contact Podcast on Instagram and on Twitter.
(54:06):
We're at First Contact Pod. Also, feel free to reach
out directly. I know this is a tough time for
a lot of you. You can text me. I'm at
five zero three four one zero. We're also going to
be hosting more Zoom town halls, not just tonight, on
different issues during this time, so follow along and participate
for some human ish contact. First Contact the production of
(54:30):
Dot Dot Dot Media, executive produced by Lorie Siegel and
Derek Dodge. I will say we're being creative and executive
producing this from home at the moment, this episode was
produced and edited by Sabine Jansen and Jack Regan. The
original theme music is by Zander Sing. I'm sending my
thoughts to each and every one of you, guys, and
so is our whole crew at First Contact. During this time,
(54:54):
I hope that everyone is staying home, staying healthy, and
staying human
First Contact with Lori Siegel is a production of Dot
Dot Dot Media and I Heart Radio. It's extraordinary. What's happening.
I'm talking to you thousands of employees at a company,
all at the same time, and I'm saying effectively the
(00:21):
same thing, which is, this is a time for pilgrims
to travel by the stars. And what are the stars?
The stars are our values, our beliefs are dreams, are
wishes or aspirations. I am fired up right now because
(00:43):
if we miss this opportunity, I will be heartwork. And
the opportunity here is to finally put people ahead of profit.
It's finally to put people on the planet ahead of profit.
M We're living in a pretty scary moment right now.
(01:13):
The coronavirus is devastating the economy. Unemployment is skyrocketing, Millions
of people's lives have been changed forever, and the future
is nothing but uncertain as we face this virus and
the destruction that's come along with it. I thought we'd
all benefit from hearing from Jerry Cologna. He is one
(01:36):
of my favorite people in tech and well maybe in life.
Jerry helps business leaders navigate uncertainty and chaos. He's known
fondly as the CEO whisper. Now I can attest to
this personally because I've worked with him on my business.
He will make you cry. Jerry is the CEO coach
(01:56):
to some of the world's biggest entrepreneurs, like the former
CEO of Etsy and the folks who started Gimblet Media.
For all your podcast lovers, he coaches founders through the
highs and more importantly, through the low points that we
don't necessarily see. Jerry spent a good part of his
career running one of New York's most successful VC funds,
(02:17):
Flatiron Partners, and he speaks candidly about his own challenges
with mental health. His book, Reboot Leadership in the Art
of Growing Up is an honest take at what it
means to lead and how to look from within, two
really important concepts right now. Jerry's whole ethos is centered
around the concept better humans make better leaders. There's never
(02:42):
been a more critical time for humanity or leadership, and
Jerry is the expert. His message is simple, show up.
I'm Laura Siegel and this is first contact. I said
(03:02):
this before and I will say it now that we're
rolling like I do feel like um you are just
like the equivalent of like a virtual hug. Something about
you super super comforting. So I'm really happy to have
you on first contact. And and I guess I should start.
I want to start with kind of the basic question,
which is, I guess, like, how are you doing right now?
(03:27):
Thank you? I tend not to be a silver lining
kind of guy, but I do think that there's something
powerful going on here, which hopefully we'll get to. So
how am I challenged? Yeah? Um, yesterday afternoon, Um, I
(03:49):
did I think my third client call. And it was
a Sunday afternoon, and and that's normal in these times.
And I felt depleted. And I am acutely aware of
my own limitations right now, and I am reminded daily
(04:14):
of the very same things that I would advise other
people to do, which is to hold those limitations without
shame or guilt. And at the same time, I am
breathlessly blown away by the joys that I see. I
see people collaborating, I see people reaching deep down inside
(04:39):
and finding ways to connect. I see adventure. I see
people just finding their path to the best possible selves.
And I love human beings more today than I did yesterday.
And I loved them a lot yesterday. So that's how
(05:00):
I'm doing. How are you, UM? Same? I don't care, UM,
you know, I think for me, I was trying to
figure it out. I always step into other people's stories
for a living, UM, and I can be deeply empathetic,
(05:22):
and I can try to understand how other people are
doing and ask them challenging questions and try to understand
human nature. But something that's different about this story is
that I'm in it, and that all of us are
in it together, and that we are all experiencing issues
like you know, anxiety and loneliness and fear and joy
(05:46):
and love and all of these things. And so never
in my career, truthfully have I UM been in the
story so much as the one that I'm delving into. UM.
You know, So I think an honest answer is, UM,
I'm okay, right, Like I'm I'm sitting in you know,
(06:07):
out of quarantine, but in self isolation in New York City,
self isolating alone, worried about my UM parents back in Atlanta.
And you know, with these crazy questions you never envisioned
yourself asking in which is, if I go home, could
I hurt my parents? UM? When we come out of this?
Will everyone I know be okay? Will I be okay?
(06:29):
How will I battle my mind? Um? Will I be
able to be an okay leader? A good leader? Um?
You know? Will I have a business out of this?
I mean, you know, truthfully to to give you? I
feel like with you, Jerry, like I can't you know,
I can't hide, so I might as well not try. Um.
(06:50):
And and you know this show is called first contact.
And our first contact was when we were shooting a
documentary on mental health and depression and turn the tables
on me when you asked me why you wanted to
do the story and and I was kind of giving
you a non answer, and you asked me to show up. Um,
And that's kind of in your DNA. And I think
(07:10):
this global pandemic has forced us all in some capacity
to have to show up right and and so um,
So I guess that's a long answer to UM, I'm
doing okay. I'm trying to show up for myself so
I can show up for other people. And it just
depends on the minute in the hour, and and my
(07:32):
whole thing has always been trying to make people feel
less alone. And so I think I find purpose in
that and then I you know, and then every day
I tried to, you know, make sure I don't implode
in my head. So there that that's that's how I'm doing. UM.
So yeah, now that that's all out there. Yeah, you know,
(07:52):
there's something beautiful about you showing up as you just did.
You showed up. And you know, I'm fond of joking.
You know the phrase no misty um and it's uh,
it's loosely translated as the divine in me sees the
divine in you. I like to translate it as the
(08:13):
mess and me sees the mess and you um, because
it allows us to be together. You know. We had
Matt mullen wig On, the founder of word Press, and
he talked about this being boss level mode, like this
is the most extreme and I just feel like you're
the kind of person who's on the front lines of
some of the most extreme stuff. And so a lot
of folks I know are losing jobs, are having to
(08:33):
lay off people, and are having to learn how to lead.
And I'm sure you're on the phone with very successful
tech entrepreneurs who are I'm sure you're hearing all sorts
of different things. Be curiously like what is your advice
to people right now on how do you lead during
this time when I mean sometimes it's kind of tough
to get out of bed truly. Well, there's a lot
(08:56):
to say about leading during this time. But the first
thing that I would say actually harkens back to what
you just share it in your in your checking, if
you will, and even in the reference to the first
contact that we had with the documentary, and that is that, well,
everything feels different and we all are wondering how different
(09:20):
the world will be when we get through this time,
and we will get through this time. The world is changing,
but it's not ending, and that's really important. Distinction hold
on to what has been important, is what is important,
which is what will be important, which is that leaders
(09:42):
have to show up and be real always, always always.
Can I read to you a quote that I found
enormous comfort from. I'll give you a little backstory on this.
So any patron is a Buddhist teacher, and she has
(10:06):
come to my rescue many times in my life through
her works, through her teachings on one on one and
this is a quote that I've carried with me for
many years. And I'm going to read the whole thing.
It's it's a little bit large, but it's worth it,
she writes. All around us, the wind, the fire, the earth,
(10:26):
the water are always taking on different qualities. We also change,
like the weather. We abb and flow, like the tides,
We wax and wane like the moon. We fail to
see that, like the weather, we are fluid, not solid,
and so we suffer. What we failed to see is
(10:48):
that we can use everything, everything we do, to help
us to realize that we're part of the energy that
creates everything. If we learned to sit still like a
mountaine in a hurricane, if we learned to sit still
like a mountaine in a hurricane, unprotected from the truth
(11:08):
and vividness and the immediacy of simply being part of life,
then we are not the separate being who has to
have things turn out our way. When we stop resisting
and let the weather simply flow through us, we can
live our lives completely. And that's from our wonderful little
(11:31):
book Constable with Uncertainty. I love that, and it's this
idea of leaning into the inability to kind of control
a lot of what's happening right now and the uncertainty
of it. I mean something I think about is even
quote when we come out of this, right, as we
come out of this, nothing will feel the same again.
I mean you are talking to I'm sure entrepreneurs left
(11:54):
and right, like who are having to lay off lots
of people. So you know, it's like you can't say
the world be okay, you know, because the world is
going to look really different after this. So you know,
what you touch on that quote is kind of being
able to lean into not being able to control a
lot of this, to be able to be steady and
go with it. How do you suggest, you know, I
(12:18):
know you can't really wave the magic wand and how
have all the answers you talk to people at the
highest levels, like, how do you tell them to cope
with this idea of uncertainty? Well, let's go back to
what I'm saying before about being real. When we are
real and we show up and we allow space for
the full magnitude, the full roller coaster ride of our
(12:39):
own emotional state, the ebb and flow, the wind, the earth,
the rain that Anti Pemmer describes. When we allow the
fullness of that to happen and we don't fight it,
this is the key. When we don't fight that. What
happens then is that we can then hold on to
(13:01):
the things that are actually not changing. See. Part of
the problem right now is that we have no idea
what's going to change. And the truth is, Laurie, certainty
is the delusion. Certainty is the illusion. It's a better
(13:21):
word than delusion. Certainty is not the guaranteed thing there
there is no certainty. We come to the edge of
a curb, we look at the walk don't walk sign.
We see walk. We say to ourselves, I can cross
the street safely, and bang we're hit by a car.
That is reality. But we have to walk around with
(13:44):
this belief system that things are knowable, because otherwise it's unbearable.
But what we lose when we over index on that
is the ability to respond fluidly to the shifts that
are happening. And by the way, I don't know any
(14:05):
other leadership skill that's more important than the ability to
read the weather and respond with fluidity because everything is
changing all the time. So the challenges how do we
deal with the fear that that change arises within us?
And that goes to the other part of that imagery.
(14:27):
For me, the mountain isn't some inflexible, brittle, pigheaded response
to the world around us. The mountain is to remember
the things that are important to us. You know, in
your case, Laurie, telling the human story, it's the tent
(14:47):
pole that holds the entire canvas up of your life.
It's who you are. It's not I'm going to have
a job at CNN or I'm going to have my
own company. Those are manifestations of the tempole. I think
that humanity in such an interesting way is rising to
the surface, and it's forcing us to edit so quickly
(15:10):
the people, places of things in our lives that are
so fundamental. And you're right, So for me, storytelling around
humanity and technology and making people feel us alone, that's
been in my DNA for so long and it has
never been closer to the surface, right, you know, And
I think this moment has solidified that. But but you're right,
I don't know. I think you know, even I don't
(15:32):
know how to describe this. But it's like even being
a leader during this time, right, And you deal with leaders.
There's just in general with tech And we both know
this because we've been in tech for a long time.
You've been in tech much longer than I am. There's
not really a rule right, and you're you're very successful,
You've been in this for a long time. There's not
(15:53):
really a rule book in tech, right, Like you know,
people kind of they do their their thing and they'll
follow the rules. But this thing that's happened, it's just
like you don't know, I think as a leader, and
this is maybe you hear my own internal struggle, like
what is the right thing to do? Right? And you
see all these micro decisions that have happened and every
single leader making them. When did they shut down the business?
(16:16):
Are they going to lay off people? Are they going
to make the hiring decision that they probably you know, like,
I don't know, do you is there a framework? And
maybe this is just me reaching for something You're you
literally have dealt with the most successful people, some of
the most successful entrepreneurs who have weathered things. I don't
think anyone's weathered something like this, But like, do you
(16:37):
what framework do you give leaders during this time to
help make some of these decisions? Right? So I think
what you're asking me really succinctly is what should we do? Yeah?
What do you do? Right? And so I want to
bring your attention to a couple of things. The first,
as you said, intact, there's no rule book. Well, here's
(16:59):
a new flash. There is no rule book, not just
a tech. Even our most codified wisdom traditions, from the
bugabb Gita to the New Testament, from the Quran to
the sutras of the Buddha, they're all pointers. They're all
(17:19):
pointing out a path. They're not the path. And that
has always been true. Part of our collective allusion has
been to believe that there is one way to do things,
because it quiets our nervous system to believe that that
(17:41):
is so. There is no one path, there is no
rule book, and the fact that we are finding ourselves
and circumstances that none of us have found ourselves in
before points to the vividness of the reality that all
old maps no longer apply. Joince Rupp has a beautiful
(18:04):
poem by that title old Maps no Longer Apply, and
she describes the fact that there's a moment in life
for all of us, whether it's coronavirus, or economic upheaval
and turmoil, or an individual company collapsing, there's that moment
when we realize that the old map that we have
(18:25):
been following is a map that was given to us,
written by somebody else, and beautifully gorgeously. What she reminds
us is there was a time when pilgrims traveled by
the stars and they didn't need maps. And what I
did with you just by calling up the point of
(18:47):
storytelling is what I am trying to do with every
single person that I encounter right now, and right now
it's extraordinary. What's happening. I'm talking to thousands of employees
that a company me all at the same time, and
I'm saying effectively the same thing, which is, this is
a time for pilgrims to travel by the stars. And
(19:12):
what are the stars? The stars are our values, our
beliefs are dreams, are wishes or aspirations. You know there's
a part of me or you know how I can
get preacher like I am. I am fired up right
now because if we miss this opportunity, I will be heartbrook.
(19:37):
And the opportunity and again I don't like silver linings either,
but the opportunity here is to finally put people ahead
of profit. It's finally to put people on the planet
ahead of profit. Yeh, Can we be done with business
as usual because you and I first met, because we
looked at the way businesses were destroying individual lives. Every
(20:01):
single CEO I encounter, usually by video, are standing there
with tears in their eyes, saying, four weeks ago my
company was doing well, and now I just laid off
of my staff. I was talking to one friend, the CEO.
He said, I just find myself staring out the window
(20:22):
all day. And I said to him, what do you
see when you stare out the window, And he said
the faces of the employees, And they're kints right. There's
no sugarcoating this experience. This is painful. And what I
said to him was, don't ever forget those faces. Look,
(20:42):
I cannot be the first responder in Elmohist Hospital, as
much as I might want to go in there, I
cannot be, you know, magically like Dyson just did invent
a new ventilator. I can't magically make medical supplies happen
or or protect the health care workers. But I can't
do what I was organized to do. I can do
(21:06):
what I was built to do, which is hold people's hearts.
And that's how I will help. And that's how you
were helping Okay, we've got to take a quick break
to hear from our sponsors. More with my guest after
the break. I know we talked about you being the
(21:42):
CEO Whisper and this and that, like and that's a nice,
great title that I think totally fits. But the reason
why people call you that is, Yes, you make people cry,
but there's a reason. It's because you forced I think,
a lot of humanity out of people. And I think
it's because you faced a lot of humanity in your
own life. Um, you were here in New York City
(22:03):
for nine eleven. You have faced um existential depression. Right,
You've talked very openly about that. That's how we first
got in contact, because you've been open in your community
and outward about that. And you've been working with people
for sixteen seventeen years. You've been working with first time entrepreneurs.
So when you, as a leader have to let of
(22:27):
your staff go, or when you are one of those
people that you're worried that your job is not even
going to exist in two months, when we quote come
out of this, right, who knows when we're going to
come out of this. I don't want to put any
artificial timeline on it. How do you, as someone who
has literally been someone who has screamed about our messy
(22:48):
minds and how we have to take care of them
for a long time, what advice do you give your
advice to that CEO um saying don't forget those faces?
I think is important? What advice do you give to
people when it comes to taking care of their heads
as they make these decisions that they just a month
ago didn't even couldn't even comprehend. Yeah, you could summarize
(23:10):
everything by the simple notion that when a full, real,
messy human shows up, they are better readers, and that
when they use that messiness to explore their leadership challenges,
(23:32):
they go back and they get to heal the messiness again.
That truth remains. And so what I would say to
people right now is you sit like a mountain in
a hurricane, not prettily, but holding fast to the notion
(23:54):
of what does it mean to be human? And human
this time? There are people who are laid off inhumanely,
and there are people who are going to be laid
off humanely. No matter how many things you have out
of your control, and my God, so many things are
(24:15):
out of our control right now. You are not powerless
over whether or not you act humanely or inhumanely. Yeah,
I'm going to say that again because it's really important.
You have a choice as to how you are going
to hold yourself, and the embodiment of that choice is
the embodiment of the mountain. What values do you hold to?
(24:43):
How do you respond to the employees who are not
being laid off? How do you hold them and create
space for them. I was on a call today with
about two hundred employees. It's It's one company, and one
of the senior executives checked in and he said, bravely,
wonderfully filled with self love and self care. He said,
(25:04):
I've been terribly unproductive today, And and that's brave because
he just allowed himself to be in that space, partially
because he'd opened up his home to somebody whose borders
have been closed and he had nowhere else to stay. Yeah,
(25:25):
that's being human. I mean, and there's something so crazy
human about this moment. Look at you're literally looking into
my home right we for our listeners were zooming right like,
you're literally looking into my home right now? You know, Um,
there's something so personal, I mean, it's just extraordinary. The contrast. Right,
(25:46):
I was thinking about it. I woke up this morning,
and truly, Jerry, it's like it totally depends on the
day in the minute as to how how I'm doing.
And I think I represent just everyone else too, you know,
Like I don't think that I'm unique in this, um,
so I'll say it, but like, you know, it's just
there's a stark contrast. It's silent outside and then there's
(26:07):
like this war being fought, right then there are these sirens, um,
and it almost feels like this thing is kind of
closing in on us. And and then you think, like
will things ever be the same? And so it's just
like these days of really trying, um too mentally, you know,
be productive and be there for a present for other people,
(26:27):
your parents, your employees, your friends, your family, you know,
and then also really try very hard to to create
a structure for yourself to move forward. Um. It's unlike
anything I've ever experienced, So I'll be open about it. UM.
I just think it's it's extraordinarily human. It's as human
(26:48):
as it gets, you know. You know, there's not one
person and in fact, of the billions and billions of
humans who have existed not one has been through this before.
And so in the social distinct isolation that you're going
through right now, don't lose sight of the fact that
(27:08):
whatever fears you're having, whatever rollercoaster of emotions you're having,
whatever ups and downs you're having, not alone. I think
that's so important to realize that we are all collectively
alone but going through this together. I know that you
guys put out and I read it, and actually it
was super helpful to me. Under the reboot guidelines like
(27:28):
what are for mandatory like isolation? Here are some guidelines
of what you can do as leaders or for a
company and for connection, provide care support. Could you walk
us through some of those like I love the idea
of giving people just like tangibles, right, could you walk
us through like some of what you would suggest. So
(27:51):
what we did, and you're right. First of all, what
I would say is, and this is a message that
I've said to my small little company in in the
band end Up Brokenhearted Warriors, that we are. What I've
said is we were built for this, not for these times,
but for this call. And this is how we will
(28:11):
be helping is to lean in and be there for
individuals and large and small organizations to help them in
their processes of being human right now. And so this
is a document that Chris band and Brink, one of
(28:33):
my colleagues, wrote, which is really a summary of what
we've learned in offering virtual pure support groups. And just
for context, one of the things virtual happy hours are great,
m and one of the challenges is that we're all
taking on this sort of odd little burden of trying
(28:53):
to make each other happy, and that can create a
kind of a illness that doesn't allow the fullness for
the experience. And so one of the first things we
always recommend is you start with the check in. And
you and I actually did this, and we started with
(29:13):
that very famous Jerry question of how are you? And
you turn the tables and you started with me tried
to catch me, I know what you're doing. Um. And
the thing is that we have always advised that business
meetings start with a check in, and a check in
usually goes kind. We tend to use from the from
(29:34):
poly vegal theory, red yellow, green as a means of
identifying how we're doing. Red obviously is not in the
best of all places. I'd rather be someplace else. Yellow,
I'm kind of in the middle green, I'm good to go,
And it's a way of quickly being able to identify
our feeling state, and then people are welcome to the
(29:57):
name any color and not use any color at all.
We're actually putting out a little recording about how to
do regular green chickens. But the point of the chicken
is to establish an emotional rapport with people. I'll add
that one of the really powerful things the video is
if you can manage to tilt the computer or your
(30:18):
screen or your camera in such a way so that
you can look into the camera with your eyes, so
that your partners can see your eyes. It's really powerful
because when we're at physical distance, what we lack is
the emotional report that comes from being able to read
each other's energy, and it can increase the sense of isolation,
(30:39):
especially if people are on a video call and they're
actually looking away, like if I turned my body away. Okay,
So that's a really important piece. The second is we
often think of setting the container, and I always talk
about a glass of water, and an empty glass is
(30:59):
her bustless and water without a glass is useless. And
so when you set the intention to have a peer
support group and a pure checking. That's the water, that's
the content, that's what it is that we're really there for.
But if you don't have a proper container or the
(31:20):
proper set of rules about how to do it, it
can quickly become useless. And so we have a couple
of norms and guidelines that we talk about. One is
presence really show up, really be there, so simple thing,
turn off the notifications on your computer. Nobody else needs
(31:41):
to hear ding ding ding. A second, much more important
is you ask questions before giving advice. In fact, dial
down the advice giving, dial up the questions, how are
you feeling? What would be different? That sort of thing.
It's often helpful to sort of bring forth a particular
(32:05):
issue that the group is working on. Hey, you know,
if it's four or five vice presidents at a company,
you might come forth and say, hey, how are we
going to be communicating about this layoff? And there may
only be one person who has to deal with that.
By talking about it together, it can be really powerful.
(32:25):
First of all, you can get more perspective, which is
always helpful, but you can get more support in that regard.
There's a whole long list of things here and there's
lots and lots of links on that, and I'm sure
you'll make that. We'll put it in our show notes. Well, definitely,
we definitely will. And I love that. Um, I'm going
to ask you. I don't normally do these types of question,
(32:48):
but because you're on the front lines and you're hearing things,
i'd be curious to know. And I'm gonna ask two
questions at once because i don't want you to think
I'm just asking the first, what is the most heartbreaking
thing that you've heard from a CEO over the last
couple of weeks? And what is the most heartwarming thing
you've heard? Well, actually, the most heartbreaking thing I've heard
(33:08):
is not actually from a CEO, but it's from a
woman who's so many people are worried simultaneously about their
children and about their parents, just like you are worried
about you know, your parents and are they safe and
are they actually listening to you? And this woman, she
was part of an all hands conversation and she was
(33:30):
just talking about her father, who it's an immigrant from China,
lives in Sheep's at Bay and a supposed to worker
and he takes the D train. I imagine or maybe
the f from Brooklyn to Penn Station to work at
the Farley Post Office, the main post office in New
(33:52):
York City. And I can't get that man out of
my head. How danger us to get on a subway
which is I'm sure empty in a community right now
that is struggling mightily with racism um coming from our
(34:13):
highest leaders, and he won't stay home. I mean, I
can't stop thinking about that man. And I can't stop
thinking about that young woman who cares about her father.
You know, Um, I grew up in Brooklyn. It's kind
(34:33):
of obvious for my accent. And there are a lot
of people who think of New York and the glitz
of New York. They think of New York as Manhattan
between Street and Wall Street. Maybe, but that's not my
New York. My New Yorker postal workers and sanitation workers,
(34:54):
and I'm sorry. You know, the firefighters, the ambulance drivers.
You know, somebody's going out and repairing traffic lights and
it ain't me. You know, these are the people I
(35:17):
grew up with. This is where Grit really needs we.
We talked about so much about resilience and leadership circles.
You want to know resilience. Catch a subway that started
off in the Bronx at three o'clock in the morning
or four o'clock in the morning, and watch people going
(35:39):
to work with construction boots time or white nurses shoes.
Think of the woman who emigrated from Haiti, who's a
nurse in Elmhurst Hospital. You know, Elmhurst, Elmhurst. What a
(36:00):
hundred and twenty hundred and thirty languages spoken in that
one zip code that's New York That, as you can tell,
it breaks my heart. Um, and and you know there
are people like that in every community. Yeah, what do
you think? Um, well, can I give you the joyful moment? Yeah? Yeah, sure,
(36:28):
so um one of the moments of joy was actually
something that happened internally for the company. And I've had
lots and lots of moments of joy, usually around seeing
human beings come together. But last Friday, you know, many
of my colleagues have have little rugrats, little munchkins, and
you know, my youngest is twenty two, so it's been
(36:50):
a long time. And so I did story time for
one of my colleagues four year old and just over
video read a book and you know, it was more
for me than for him, because he could barely. But
Sam is the tank engine. But um, you know, a
(37:12):
promise I've made to myself as a CEO is that
I'm not going to forget that and I'm gonna not
wait for times of crisis to inquire about the health
and well being of my colleagues four year old son.
You know. So there's there's a tinge of bitter sweetness
(37:35):
in that joy. Okay, we've got to take a quick
break to hear from our sponsors more with my guest
after the break. H what do you think resilience is
(38:02):
in the era of coronavirus. Well, it's really important to
remember about resilience that we we oftentimes misunderstand. Resilience is
a kind of false ah, a capacity to always take
a punch, right, to take a punch, get knocked down,
(38:23):
and stand up. And that's great if you can do that.
But true resilience is the ability to duck. I'm a boxer, right,
and you know my boxing coach would yell at me
if I stood there blithely taking a punch because you
don't really last very long. And so true resiliency, true grit.
(38:49):
If you will, it's the capacity to sort of really
be flexible and to shift and to respond differently to
changing circumstances, and so resiliency in the age of coronavirus.
I think resiliency in this age requires us to go
back to and remember what was vitally important about us
(39:12):
in the first place, what brought us together, and what
remains what is true regardless, Resiliency being in the form
of being able to withstand the heartbreak of connecting with
a postal worker who's commuting on a train at five
(39:34):
o'clock in the morning or something like that, and knowing
what is our work to do, and knowing that that
my job as a leader right now is to hold
myself steady, to remind people of their true worth, their
true values, and call that forth, call forth that humanity.
(39:55):
As you mentioned before, M, I suppose in the end,
resiliency is really a quality of leadership in that way,
more than a thing unto itself. When you talk about
holding close what's important to you, UM, I think I've
done a lot of thinking about what is important to
me during this time. Thank you, quarantine, UM, what is
(40:21):
that for you? M. You're gonna make me cry so
you reference the fact that I've had my own existential
depression and suicidal feelings and h and attempted suicide when
(40:43):
I was a teenager, and then a return of those
feelings in my thirties. And as I as I left
that period and entered a new period still connected to
the pain of that, I began exploring Buddhism, and um,
(41:05):
it works for me. And I don't mean to proselytize,
I find what works for you is fined by me whatever.
But it worked for me because of so many different reasons.
But one of the things that I found fascinating is
the notion of the Buddhisatta. And Bodhisatta isn't just another
saint I was raised in the Catholic traditions are the
(41:27):
deep and profound awareness of saints. Um a Bodhisat is
someone who could attain enlightenment, who could leave suffering behind,
but chooses to take rebirth time and time again until
all beings are free from suffering. M hm. So what
(41:50):
matters to me, Laurie, is my Bodhisava that mm hmm.
I am wired to care. I am at my best
when I am caring. And what matters to me is
(42:10):
love and compassion, And what coronavirus has taught me already
it is that which I thought was true, I have
now confirmed is in fact true. But the only response
to fear is love. It's the only response that works.
(42:32):
And so when we're terrified, find the compassion. You know,
Fred Rogers loving wonderfully used as advised children to look
for the helpers. All amend that by saying there's a
helper inside of you. Look for that helper because we
(42:55):
can all do something special. We can all do one
little thing, pulling it out a little bit. I know
something you said earlier thought was interesting about business is
changing after this, Like as we come out of this,
you talk about, you know, maybe people will look at
people over profit. Maybe things will be different. Um when two, three,
(43:20):
four or six months a year down the road, Like
do you think that businesses changed? Do you think that
we lead with heart? Like? What do you think happens
to businesses? I don't know for sure, but I know
what I would like. I don't I can't tell you
with certainty, but I know what would be a tragedy,
(43:41):
And what would be a tragedy is if we let
this time pass and we let all those lives go,
and we still find ourselves squabbling over nonsense, and we
do that a lot. I find it hard to believe
that that the vast majority of us will somehow forget.
(44:04):
But this time period was like, I don't believe humans
are like that. And I think back to what happened
in theties after the Great Depression hit and the not
just you know the stories that we tell of our
ancestors who saved every little bit of string and turned
it into a ball because they had grown up in
(44:27):
the depression, but because of the entitlement programs that were
created as a result of that, the commitment the government
made to taking care of people. I think in a
similar fashion, they were entitlement programs that were created, despite
its profound racism the fifties, we created the middle class
(44:47):
because there was a commitment that that sacrifice it's going
to mean something. I know that we have the capacity
to do that as a species, not just as a country.
And you know that's my hope and my wish, and
you know, to me, businesses are the best organization structures
(45:09):
to manifest social change possible. They are fast, they are
efficient for the most part, they do miraculous things we
just need to make sure that the leaders are leading
from their heart. That's all I do. Wonder, having covered
tech and having seen us through this tech lash, and
having watched it come all the way over the pendulum
(45:31):
swing one way, I wonder if we come back. I
wonder if this is a reset for many of these
tech companies that are now kind of the most powerful
companies in the world. I wonder what this will mean
for them. Well, if to take a look at Amazon,
which you know, is of course a tech company, but
is also a logistics giant, right, let's hope that giants
(45:54):
like Amazon, and I think it's true. I think they
were having I mean, I'm talking to some of these leaders.
They see it. They have if not the direct family,
then they have cousins who are impacted. They see the
lines impacted by this, and they want to do something.
And let's just hope that they have internalized a change.
(46:15):
I had this thought before I got on with you.
I just what does this virus mean for the American dream?
I look at friends of mine who have small businesses,
folks who work at restaurants. I'm already seeing jobs lost,
and so that question of like what does this mean
for the American dream. I don't know what do you
(46:37):
think it mean for your dream? Oh? I think it
means from my dream, it means it's more tangible than ever,
you know. I think storytelling is kind of a method
of survival for me personally. But I also think, I
said this in my last episode, which is um, my
favorite Joan Didion quote, as we tell ourselves stories in
order to live. Well, that's essentially what I I've got
(47:00):
to do for myself and others right now. But that's
you know, I think for for me, that's that's my dream.
And I think that survives. I think that survives this,
you know, hopefully, I mean for me personally, hopefully. Um.
You know, I I think about those things because we
are a small business, and we are you know, we
(47:21):
are new and and uh they came at a at
a weird time and we had to throw everything out
the window and rethink from quarantine. Um like many other people, right,
like a lot of other folks. But it got me
thinking about the American dream. Like, I think what you're
referring to is the American dream of an individual crafting
(47:44):
their own future. So I think let's make a distinction.
There are some dreams that will be dashed. That is true.
There will be some dreams like was it Maureene Hansbury
who wrote that will dry up like a reason in
the sun from the Langston Hughes poem. But the American
(48:08):
dreaming will go on. The act of dreaming is more
important than the dream itself, because that's resiliency. I spoke
to a Venture Accelerated this morning, a group that incubates
lots and lots of entrepreneurial endeavors, and their entire mode
(48:30):
of operating has to change right now. And I reminded
them of their purpose, which was two, three, four or five,
six months from now, nine months from now, whenever it
is that we are through this period. Their job is
to take care of those dreamers so that those dreamers
(48:52):
can manifest their dreams. The dreaming will continue, but what
we dreamed up will be different. Right now, somebody is
inventing a new ventilator. Right now, somebody is saying the
logistical nightmare of not being able to get seven cent mass,
(49:18):
that's how much they cost. Apparently now mass, the logistical
nightmare of not making enough of those it's going to
be sold by an American dreaming entrepreneur or an entrepreneur
from another country. Yeah, that will not stop. I am
(49:38):
so excited to watch technology entrepreneurs step up. I mean
I got into this in two thousand and eight interviewing
entrepreneurs when we were coming out of the recession, when
there was the iPhone launched, the app store, it was launched,
and there was just like this canvas for creativity, right
and like people dreamed, like there were a ton of dreamers.
(49:59):
And I have a feeling that we're going to have
a lot of dreamers come out of this, that we're
going to have a lot of people who have a
lot of heart, who have seen things happen to their
parents and their friends, and have seen that there is
a system that is broken. I hope you know that
that ethos of tech that I so fell in love
with as a startup reporter, you know, in my early twenties,
(50:21):
I can hopefully not to try to find a silver lining,
but I can see that, I can see that we
are going to I hope we are going to have
We're already seeing that, and that, you know, that makes
me really happy. So you know, um, in the early
days when I was at VC, one of the entrepreneur
archetypes that I could not stand back and I would
(50:41):
not back were people who were in it for the money.
I just, I just I couldn't. I couldn't bear to
be around them. One of the things that will happen
in this time period is those people who are pursuing
something because they think it's a path to riches will
probably not continue pursuing things. But the people who rise
(51:05):
up with the people who genuinely lean in and say
I have an idea that might help, And that to
me is the essence of entrepreneurship. I have an idea
that might help. Wouldn't it be cool if would it
be cool if we could triple the production to ventilators
inside of two months? Mm hmmm, here's an idea, right.
(51:30):
That's the American dreaming process. Um. I want to end
on something you said that I love that this is
in your book. I like scribbled notes in your book
like a crazy person. Um, and I just think it's
a It's really fitting you. See. The call to lead
is the call to be brave, and I think all
(51:50):
of us are trying to lead in some capacity, whether
or not we own our own business, whether or not
we are parents trying to figure out how to homeschool
are chi children. But I think bravery is a is
a big one. So um, I appreciate that statement. And
I don't know if you have anything you want to
add on it, but when it comes to this moment,
(52:11):
but I think it's super fitting for this time, well,
I agree with you. It's I think the call to
leadership is a call to bravery, but the call to
bravery is a call to be human. And I think
that as much as anxiety and fear is a foundational
(52:32):
component of us in our survival technique, just as true
as that is is the is the truth that we
are called to be brave. It takes courage to grow
up and become an adult. It takes courage to hold
ourselves steady like a mountain in a hurricane. It takes
(52:53):
courage to homeschool our kids, to use a video call
to talk to a parent and remind them to stay inside.
And it takes courage two put that structure to your
day and go about your day. It takes courage to
admit that you're afraid. That's true bravery, and that's the
(53:18):
most fundamental source of joy that I'm experiencing is because
I see bravery every day time and time again. Maybe
what we should say, you know how we've all taken
the scene to each other stay safe. Maybe we should
say stay brave. I really like that stay brave. This
(53:45):
episode is coming out on Monday, April six. If you
want to talk to Jerry, I'm hosting a town hall
with him tonight at eight pm. Check out my social
media for a link to register. We want to hear
your questions about leadership and resilience in these crazy times.
I'm at Lorie Siegel on Twitter and Instagram, and the
show is at First Contact Podcast on Instagram and on Twitter.
(54:06):
We're at First Contact Pod. Also, feel free to reach
out directly. I know this is a tough time for
a lot of you. You can text me. I'm at
five zero three four one zero. We're also going to
be hosting more Zoom town halls, not just tonight, on
different issues during this time, so follow along and participate
for some human ish contact. First Contact the production of
(54:30):
Dot Dot Dot Media, executive produced by Lorie Siegel and
Derek Dodge. I will say we're being creative and executive
producing this from home at the moment, this episode was
produced and edited by Sabine Jansen and Jack Regan. The
original theme music is by Zander Sing. I'm sending my
thoughts to each and every one of you, guys, and
so is our whole crew at First Contact. During this time,
(54:54):
I hope that everyone is staying home, staying healthy, and
staying human
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